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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 10 Nov 1949

Vol. 118 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Irish News Agency Bill, 1949—Committee Stage.

Sections 1 to 4 inclusive agreed to.
SECTION 5.

I move amendment No. 1:—

To delete the whole of line 39 and the word "shall" in line 40 and substitute "Not earlier than the 12th day of July, 1954, the Minister may".

The purpose of this amendment is to defer the coming into operation of this agency, this limited company, until 12th July, 1954. In other words, its purpose is to ensure that this agency will not come into operation until the Minister and the Government have had an opportunity of studying this matter in greater detail and of making themselves acquainted with similar organisations in other countries and until they will have had greater experience of the operation of this type of propaganda organisation. If the Bill were to become law, or if this agency were to come into operation, immediately the Bill became an Act, it is quite possible that some damage might be done. As was stated on the Second Reading, there are quite a number of factors to be taken into consideration, and I should wish that there should be no undue haste. For that reason, I suggest it should come into operation in 1954, which would be subsequent to the next general election. Possibly, at that time, there may not be the same enthusiasm for a Bill of this kind, or an agency such as this Bill suggests.

Why the 12th of July?

There is nothing special in the date.

It has no special significance.

It was exactly five years as from the date the amendment was put down.

It was a friendly gesture to the North.

It was a good anniversary on which to put down such an amendment. This amendment cannot be taken seriously. It is quite obvious that now more than ever it is essential to have such a news agency, and, as a matter of fact, I am sorry we did not have it before the Dáil rose.

It is a better bet that it will be wound up by 12th July, 1954.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Committee divided:—Tá: 71; Níl: 44.

  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Joseph P.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, Alfred Patrick.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Commons, Bernard.
  • Connolly, Roderick J.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Sir John L.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Fitzpatrick, Michael.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Halliden, Patrick J.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hogan, Patrick.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keane, Seán.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kinane, Patrick.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lehane, Con.
  • Lehane, Patrick D.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, William J.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Sheehan, Michael.
  • Spring, Daniel.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Timoney, John J.
  • Tully, John.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Carter, Thomas.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Lynch, John.
  • McCann, John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • De Valera, Vivion.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Friel, John
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, James.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Sheridan Michael.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Richard.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Kyne; Níl: Deputies Cowan and Killilea.
Question declared carried.
Amendment accordingly declared lost.
Question proposed: "That the section stand part of the Bill."

Would the Minister explain to the House the exact significance of the words: "after consultation with the Minister for Finance"? What does he propose to consult with the Minister for Finance about before exercising his powers and functions under Section 5?

So far as I know, this is a standard provision. Where there are payments of money involved, it is usual to provide for consultation with the Minister for Finance.

It is not usual in cases of this kind. In fact, so far from being a standard provision, it is a recent innovation, because I notice that in most pieces of legislation which have come before the House recently, consultation with the Minister for Finance is far more prominent than ever before.

It is an exact copy of the provision in many pieces of legislation promoted by the Deputy.

In view of the Minister's acceptance of my standard, I withdraw. If he sticks to them, he cannot go far wrong.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 6.

I move amendment No. 2:—

In sub-section (1) to insert before the words "the name of the agency", in line 1, the words "notwithstanding the provisions of Section 3 of the Companies (Consolidation) Act, 1908".

This amendment is merely to avoid the necessity of using the word "Limited" as part of the name of the agency.

It would make it more like a commercial organisation if you put in the word "Limited".

I do not agree. We have such names as the "United Press", "Press Association", "Reuters" and "Central News Agency".

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 3 and 4 will be discussed together?

No, they are two separate points. Amendment No. 3 is greater than amendment No. 4. If amendment No. 3 is not accepted, amendment No. 4 can be moved.

Perhaps the Deputy will allow me to finish. If the Deputy desires to have two divisions, I will save amendment No. 4 on amendment No. 3.

I submit that they are separate points.

You will get separate divisions.

In Committee I suppose it does not matter. I move amendment No. 3:—

In sub-section (2), to delete all words after "each" in line 5.

Sub-section (2) provides that the share capital of the company shall be £100, divided into 100 fully paid shares of £1 each. We could understand what the Bill intended to do if the sub-section stopped there, but the following words imply that the capital of the company may be increased. It is true that there is no particular provision in the Bill governing that eventuality, but the implication of the section is that, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, the capital of the company may be increased. My amendment to delete these words is, I admit, prompted by the general suspicion with which I approach this Bill, because in almost every section there is some phrase or word or clause inserted which appears to permit of the Minister doing much more than the Title appears to suggest. If it is intended that the share capital of the company shall be £100 divided into 100 fully paid shares of £1 each, each of the 100 £1 being provided by the Minister for Finance, why not stop at that, because the clear implication of the words, that it shall not be lawful for the agency to increase its capital without the consent of the Minister for Finance, is that its capital may be increased and, for the life of me, I cannot see for what purpose.

Will it help the Deputy if I tell him that this is copied from one of his own Bills.

No, because many of the companies which were established before to which the Minister refers were temporary organisations which ultimately expanded into substantial commercial concerns. The Tourist Board, for example, was set up originally as a £100 company but it did not remain so—it became a statutory organisation when the necessary legislation was enacted and has now assets of several million pounds. This is not intended to be a mere preliminary step towards the ultimate creation of a larger organisation.

This company, I trust, will exist for a considerable period of time and will be in existence for a great many future Governments and we want to leave things as elastic as possible if it becomes necessary to alter the share capital. We want to make provision in the Act so as to prevent the necessity for coming to the House for amending legislation. The House, however, will at all times have control of it, in as much as the House will vote the money.

In what conceivable circumstances could this or any other Government want to alter the share capital?

For the same reason as the Deputy himself said some of the companies before extended and had to have large capital.

So that this company can in fact grow into a larger organisation?

I would not like to hold out any hope that in the immediate future, this company will make money, but I can well see that after a period of time, this company could pay its way and possibly make money.

What has that to do with the capital? If it makes money, it will be all it can do to repay the advances in accordance with the subsequent sections of the Bill. What has that to do with the enlargement of its share capital? The Bill says that the share capital is to be £100. It could have said £1 or £1,000. It is purely a notional arrangement necessary because a company in the form of a company under the Companies' Act is being set up. Is there any circumstances under which the company will seek to get new money by enlarging its capital when it can get all it wants from the Minister for Finance?

It might be necessary in future to increase the capital.

Will the Minister admit that there is no comparison between this Bill and other Bills setting up companies for a different purpose? On the Second Stage, I understood that this company was not going to sell anything; that it was going to serve as a propaganda medium to disseminate news which, ordinarily, would not be accepted by newspapers through the ordinary news agencies who get payment for their services. If it is not going to sell anything——

I hope this company will be able to sell its service.

From the discussion on the Second Reading and the Minister's own contribution to it, it appeared to me to be quite clear that this Bill was necessary to set up a news agency to disseminate a type of news which would not be what you would call attractive from a newspaper's point of view because it was not a "man biting a dog" kind of news; that it had as its background mainly propaganda for certain specific reasons and the welfare of this nation and that it would contact different newspapers mainly through representatives abroad of a particular Department of State. To whom is it going to sell anything? How will it get an income which will exceed the cost of its officials and staff, etc., so that one could visualise a huge profit being built up in the shape of assets and the issuing of bonus shares or an increase in capital to take in all this money? I do not see that there is any necessity for this, because there is a provision for a debenture and for a subsidy from the State in the shape of a grant not exceeding a certain amount. Could the Minister give an instance as to how and where this service could be sold?

I am sorry the Deputy is under a wrong impression. I do not think I could have given the impression the Deputy seems to have received on the Second Reading. One of my difficulties in dealing with this Bill is that I am not certain whether the objections raised are bona fide or merely for the sake of obstruction. If I felt there was a bona fide interest in the Bill, I would be most helpful from the point of view of giving all the information possible to the House. But, so far, I have the impression that this was merely being proposed for the sake of obstruction purely and simply.

I hope that the news agency will be able to sell its service and sell it extensively. I do not think that in the early stages or for years it will be in a position to pay its way. It will not compete in what I termed "hot news" with the other news agencies that are already doing that, but it will supplement them. I know, for instance, that in cities with large Irish populations, such as Boston where I was asked specifically by newspaper editors and proprietors to set up such a news agency, newspapers will take our service.

And pay for it?

Yes. The same thing would apply to other large Irish population centres. The revenue which will be obtained in that way is a matter that can only be determined by experience. It will depend largely on the ability of the news agency to provide a service that is publishable and of interest to the readers of the different newspapers. But its function is not to compete with existing hot news agencies but to supplement their news services.

I do not think the Minister is justified in suggesting that the Opposition is not bona fide in its approach to this Bill because even though we are opposed to the Bill in principle, at the same time it is our duty to examine it with a microscope as we go along. I would like to know from the Minister can he give us an estimate of what the expenditure will be, because if he cannot we are giving him a blank cheque.

Surely, that would have arisen on the Money Resolution.

It will arise again. That is really what we are anxious about. If the £5,000 is not sufficient, one cannot see where profits are going to be made.

The question of the amount of money that the Minister is going to waste on this service may not be completely relevant to the section. What is relevant to the section is the power which the Dáil can keep over the activities and development of this organisation. The Minister can regard our attitude to the Bill as one of obstruction if he likes. The position at the moment is that the Dáil, by a majority, in its foolishness agreed to this Bill in principle, and has agreed by its vote on the Money Resolution that this so-called agency is to take the form of a company. That being so, I want to ensure that it is a company that we may know something about and can control. I am agreeable to the section passing if its effect is to establish this company with a share capital of £100. I am opposing it because it is implied that after the Bill proposing to establish the company with a capital of £100 is passed, the Minister, in consultation with another Minister, can alter that provision fundamentally.

To deal with the second amendment, there is the suggestion that the company can issue debentures. The Minister knows that debentures are a first charge on the assets of a company given in return for a loan, and that the rights of a debenture holder are such that he can seize these assets if his debenture interest is not paid according to the contract. Are we to contemplate the situation that, if the company gets into financial difficulties and uses up all the money advanced to it from the Exchequer, the Minister, or the board of the company, can go to some private interest and borrow further money on debentures, and that, provided it finds that the company is unable to pay the interest on its debentures, it can come in and take over all the assets of a company which the Dáil is setting up? The Minister, surely, did not put in this section merely because it appeared in another Bill. He must have considered it in relation to the particular organisation he was going to set up, and he must have known that the Dáil would consider it in relation to this organisation. This company will, in fact, have no tangible assets at all except, perhaps, a typewriter, a desk or a filing cabinet. It will not have the debenture assets that a manufacturing company would have. Why, then, provide for the possible issue of debentures charged upon whatever assets it has, even though the likelihood will be that there will only be financial assets? If the company wants money there is ample provision in the Bill to enable it to get it from the Minister for Finance. There is no necessity for providing here that the board can borrow further money without the knowledge of the Dáil on debentures.

Now it is not obstruction of the Bill to move an amendment which seeks to limit the provisions of this section so as to ensure that as little as possible can happen outside the knowledge of the Dáil after the company has been set up. That is why we want to amend the section. We will allow the section to pass provided the company is established with a capital of £100 but what we object to is that, after we pass it, it can increase its capital or borrow money without our knowledge on debentures.

I would like the Minister to be more explicit and define exactly what he means by "hot news" as distinct from other news. The Minister himself had a brief incursion into journalism. He must know that all news that breaks for the first time is hot news. I am not speaking here in an obstructive strain. I am speaking here on behalf of working journalists who feel that their livelihood is being attacked in this Bill. The Minister hopes that this news agency will go ahead and that in time it will be a paying proposition. Now that can only mean that the agency will be in competition with other journalists who send "copy" out of this country. I want the Minister to be specific and to say what exactly is the "copy" that will be sent through this agency. Is it to be mere propaganda? I cannot see for the life of me what difference there is between hot news and some other news. No journalist or agency is interested in anything except hot news. A journalist is not interested in stale news because he cannot sell it. I should like the Minister to give me an answer on that.

The Deputy has made a speech and, according to his definition of hot news, it is something that happens for the first time. What the Deputy has said now has not been said for the first time in this House. It may be news, but certainly not hot news.

Was the eggs photograph in the Sunday Independent hot news?

Or what you had about Tory Island?

The Minister's explanation will not satisfy working journalists.

All that will arise again on amendments Nos. 10 and 11.

Can we take it that the first time the Minister indicated that this commodity which he intends to sell in the shape of hot news was on the Second Stage, or was the first time he mentioned it in his conversation with the editors of the Boston papers?

I think I mentioned that.

But not that they would pay for the service. I would like the Minister to indicate whether there will be any payment.

Possibly on amendments Nos. 10 and 11.

On amendments Nos. 3 and 4, I want to say that on a Bill of this kind it is clear that there will be what may be termed a critical analysis. It is only right that there should be a critical analysis. The Minister takes the line that that is obstruction. I think that is a wrong line for him to take, that criticism of the language in which a Bill is framed is obstruction. A serious analysis of this Bill might make it a much better one by the time the House was finished with it. I suggest to the Minister that he might follow the line of other Ministers who have got Bills through this House with the general goodwill of the House, and that he should try and meet reasonable suggestions as far as possible. Certainly, it is a reasonable suggestion, as far as this amendment is concerned, that all words from the word "each" to the end of the sub-section are unnecessary. The Minister wants an organisation with a capital of £100 divided into 100 fully paid shares of £1 each. That is a simple thing. We all know these companies with £100 capital divided into 100 shares of £1 each. That is quite a simple and understandable thing and in my view it is something that can achieve the purpose the Minister has in mind. But the objectionable part is the latter part of the section — that, "notwithstanding anything done in the Companies Acts, it shall not be lawful for the agency without the consent of the Minister for Finance to increase or reduce that capital or to issue debentures". What does that mean? Is the Minister serious in suggesting that a company such as this could ever issue a debenture? Does he seriously suggest that there is even one lunatic in this country who would advance money on debentures in that company — even one lunatic?

Either those words are of some importance or they are of no importance. If they are of no importance, then, like an appendix, cut them out. If they are of importance, I would like to know what that importance is. I do not think this petulance should arise in the examination of the words of the section. It is scarcely the thing for the Minister to take up this attitude— I would be prepared to give all the information if the opposition to the section were serious.

Is it the Minister or the Bill that we are discussing?

The Bill should be discussed, but the Deputy is referring to a remark made by the Minister. He is entitled to do so.

That is one of the great protections of democracy, and it is a great thing that we have the Chair prepared so to decide.

The Deputy should not make me blush.

The Minister is adopting the attitude that he would give information to the House if he thought the opposition to the section was serious, but because he thinks it is obstructive he will not give the information. I think that is an attitude that is foreign to democracy, foreign to Parliamentary rule and government.

Now let us hear about the amendment.

I was just about to get back to the amendment. I am sorry I was forced to that digression. What do these words mean? Was there a precedent of some company formed by Deputy Lemass when he was Minister in connection with which these words appeared, or in which there might be a necessity for them to appear? Is this Bill formed on the basis that quite a number of us are used to, of copying precedents? Is there a precedent there and are we copying that precedent? Are we putting in words whether they are of any value or not to the section?

I take the line, with Deputy Lemass, that once the principle of the Bill has been accepted—as it has been—our duty then is to make that Bill as good as we possibly can, and unless there is some reason for these particular words, then I say the Bill would be improved if these words were deleted. I want an explanation as to why these words were put in. What was the purpose—what was the intention? What are they intended to be used for?

The Deputy is a bit persistent in that question. He is repetitive.

I appreciate that. I merely ask the Minister to explain what he means and what is the intention behind the words to which we take objection.

I think it should be pointed out, further, in support of this amendment, that if, in any conceivable circumstances, it was necessary or desirable to increase the capital of this company, the effect of the adoption of this amendment—the deletion of the words to which I object—would mean that it could only be done by fresh legislation. I think it is desirable that the Dáil should not agree to let this section stand so that these things can be done without its knowledge or consent. It is far better that the original scheme outlined by the Minister on Second Reading should appear in the Bill and any subsequent modifications should be made only with the consent of the Dáil.

If this were an ordinary company under the Companies Acts the position would be different, but it is not an ordinary company and we want to put it in the same position as an ordinary company.

I should like to mention to Deputy Lemass, so that he may understand how I was putting the question a while ago, that he should look at his two amendments. The first proposal is to remove all words after "each" to the end of the sub-section, which would rule out the second amendment.

If it was carried. I will take the first amendment, if the Minister will accept it, but if he does not accept the first I will try to get him to accept the second.

Quite, and I was saving it for the Deputy. I will put the question: "That the words proposed to be deleted, stand, down as far as the word ‘capital'."

The amendment I prefer to make to the section is amendment No. 3, which would delete all the words. Amendment No. 4 was tabled by me only on the assumption that amendment No. 3 would be defeated.

But, if I put the question that all the words in amendment No. 3 proposed to be deleted, stand, the Deputy could not put amendment No. 4, because the words would stand. That is the trouble.

I will go down as far as the word "capital", then.

I do not want two divisions.

Then, on amendment No. 3, I will put the question: "That the words proposed to be deleted, stand."

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 72; Níl, 48.

  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Joseph P.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, Alfred Patrick.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Commons, Bernard.
  • Connolly, Roderick J.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Sir John L.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Fitzpatrick, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Halliden, Patrick J.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hogan, Patrick.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keane, Seán.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kinane, Patrick.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lehane, Con.
  • Lehane, Patrick D.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, William J.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.)
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Sheehan, Michael.
  • Spring, Daniel.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Timoney, John J.
  • Tully, John.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Carter, Thomas.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • De Valera, Vivion.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Friel, John.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, James.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, John.
  • McCann, John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Richard.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Kyne; Níl: Deputies Kissane and Kennedy.
Question declared carried.

With regard to amendment No. 4, that amendment falls since it is consequential upon amendment No. 3.

In its present form amendment No. 5 is one that I would not move. I have some observations to make which I shall make on the section.

Amendment No. 5 not moved.

On the Section.

We have just discussed sub-section (2) of the section and, in respect of this company that is referred to, this Irish news agency which is to be a company under the provisions of this Bill, it is provided that there will be 100 fully paid shares of £1, and then sub-section (3) says:—

"One share in the share capital of the agency shall be allotted and issued to each of the subscribers to the memorandum of association of the agency and the residue of the said share capital shall be allotted and issued to the Minister for Finance."

Those two sub-sections of that section would give the impression that there was something genuine about this particular company—that there is, in fact, share capital subscribed by subscribers. Then we come down to sub-section (4) and we find that the money payable by the subscribers shall be paid by the Minister for Finance. I believed from the beginning that the whole idea behind this was foolish and phoney and, certainly, taking those three sub-sections, there is nothing realistic. The whole approach is a phoney approach. We provide for subscribers. We provide for share capital. We give the impression that the subscribers are people who will, in fact, subscribe but then we get the sub-section which says that they do not subscribe at all. They are nominal subscribers and the money is put up by the Minister for Finance out of the Central Fund. Who are to be these fictitious subscribers? The whole set-up is not realistic at all and a condemnation of the whole Bill is contained within that section.

Section, as amended, put and agreed to.
SECTION 7

Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 go together. Amendment No. 6 by Deputy Cowan and amendment No. 7 by Deputy Lemass. Deputy Cowan on amendment No. 6.

I move amendment No. 6:—

In sub-section (1), to delete the words "shall be" in line 19 and to add at the end of the sub-section the words "shall be laid by the Minister before each House of the Oireachtas for approval before registration".

The object of the amendment is to provide that the memorandum of association of the agency shall be laid by the Minister before each House of the Oireachtas for approval before registration. Clearly, if we are to know anything whatsoever about this memorandum of association we ought to see it in the form in which it is submitted for approval and before registration. There would not be very much sense in it if we were to see it subsequent to registration and the amendment that I move has for its purpose that object.

I move amendment No. 7:—

In sub-section (1), to delete all words after "approved" in line 20 and substitute "by both Houses of the Oireachtas".

The amendment hangs, to some extent, with amendments Nos. 8 and 9.

I have already stated that we have approached the consideration of this Bill with very deep suspicion as to the motives that inspired the framing of it. It is probably just as well that we do, because in so far as it is the function of an Opposition in the Dáil to examine in detail proposals for legislation submitted by the Government, its discharge can best be ensured if the suspicion with which the approach is made is active.

I have said already that, in this Bill, the Minister is, in fact, seeking powers to do a great deal more than he suggested in his introductory speech. We know already, because the Dáil has approved of Section 6, that the £100 company can have its capital enlarged without further consideration by the Dáil; that the organisation which is to be financed primarily by advances from the Exchequer can also, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, borrow money elsewhere, and now we come to the purpose of the organisation. We find that it is not necessarily confined to the collection, dissemination, distribution and publication of news.

It is true that the Bill proposes to make that its principal function but it is clear that, under this section as it is framed, the organisation could be given other functions subsequently —other functions which have not even been hinted at during the course of this discussion. I think the best way of meeting the suspicions which the peculiar wording of the section gives rise to is to provide that the memorandum of association of the company should be approved by the Dáil before becoming effective. If the Dáil is not prepared to accept that function, if it is prepared to trust the Minister and the Government to frame this memorandum of association without further reference to it, then I think we shall have to ask it to define in more precise terms the limits within which the memorandum may be framed, the functions which the organisation to be established will be entitled to exercise.

It may be unusual in a Bill of this kind to require that the memorandum of association of a company to be set up should be submitted for approval to the Dáil. I think, however, that all the circumstances surrounding this measure justify that departure from precedent, however painful a departure from precedent may be to the Minister. If he is not prepared to take the Dáil into his confidence in the matter of the preparation of the memorandum of association, I hope he will at least indicate that he is prepared to revise the wording of the section so as to give a more precise definition of the functions of the company or, shall I say, to impose a more definite limitation on the functions that may be given to it by the memorandum of association.

The Dáil, in its foolishness, agreed to establish this organisation. It has agreed that the organisation should take the form of a limited company. I hope, however, that it will not go further and give to those who are charged with the constitution of the company, and the preparation of its documents, a completely blank cheque, because, as the section now stands, that is, in fact, what the Dáil is asked to do. The best amendment of the section, in my view, is that which I propose in amendment No. 7. If the Minister will not accept amendment No. 7, I will settle for either amendment No. 8 or amendment No.9.

Much as Deputy Lemass may regret it, I do not propose to depart from the procedure which he has so well initiated in this House in relation to the formation of these companies.

You cannot father sub-section (2) on me.

No, I cannot, not sub-section (2). I see no reason for laying the memorandum of association before this House or for seeking the approval of this House of the memorandum of association. This document will be a public document which will be obtainable and if any Deputy does not approve of it he can put down a motion. The best opportunity of course of discussing it will be on the Estimate.

He can put down such a motion and it will be discussed on 12th July, 1950. It cannot be taken earlier.

Would the Minister even go so far as to insert the words "the paper shall be laid on the Table of the House"? When a paper is laid on the Table of the House the practice of the House in the past has been that it gives a certain claim to Deputies to have it dealt with at the earliest possible time but it does not force the House to approve or disapprove unless some Deputy puts down a motion. Perhaps the Minister would accept that suggestion.

I am quite prepared to send to any Deputy who would like to have it a copy of the memorandum of association.

That is not quite the point. Sometimes it is said that a paper will be laid on the Table of the House and it gives Deputies the right to put down a motion and the practice has been to take the motion as early as possible after it has been laid on the Table of the House. If the Minister will not accept this amendment perhaps he will accept an amendment that the paper should be laid on the Table of the House and that will give Deputies the right to have it discussed. It is a pretty fair test of the Minister's genuineness——

I wish that the Deputy and his Party had shown the same degree of fairness in relation to certain other matters which very often affected citizens' lives.

That is not on the section.

I have been noticing the technique of different Ministers; if you criticise the Minister for External Affairs it is obstruction; if you criticise the Minister for Industry and Commerce it is sabotage; if you criticise the Minister for Finance it is not described by any such term but always results in——

On a point of order, has this anything at all to do with the text of the Bill?

I am not sure whether the Deputy is replying to a remark of the Minister. We will know in a moment.

He is telling us his reminiscences.

My most unpleasant reminiscences. The Minister for Finance says: "What I could tell the House if only I could allow myself to do it." They have different techniques.

I have experience of things that were supposed to be laid on the Table of the House which involved the lives of some people who were before military courts.

That is not relevant to the Bill surely.

No, it is not relevant to the Bill, but it is relevant to the question of papers being laid on the Table of the House.

I was wondering how long it would be before the Minister became rattled. He has no control of himself at all.

I do not like hypocrisy.

On the Second Reading we got on to transport and now we are getting on to something else. The Minister's only answer to criticism is to explode in different directions.

Of course I had to call it obstruction——

This is obstruction!

I wish the Minister had been in the House when there was some obstruction.

If obstruction were to be adopted by us as a political technique we could show you something. We held a Bill up in 1927 for six weeks.

This one has been held up for four months.

Not at all. We have only been at it from 6 o'clock. You could not have got beyond the title if we had adopted obstruction, but I am sure that the Chair has instructions according to the powers conferred on him by Standing Orders to prevent obstruction. In fact the suggestion of obstruction is a reflection on the Chair. A proposal has been made to set up a company here and we in this House who represent the people who have to pay for this company, we who must give it the money it is going to lose and who are ultimately responsible for paying for it, this Dáil wants to know the form of the memorandum of association of that company which states the form that the company is going to take and we are told to go to the Registrar of Companies office to pay a shilling for the purpose of getting it. We want it produced formally and officially before this House so that we can approve of it or disapprove of it. Is that seeking too much? Is it preposterous for this Dáil to suggest that it should be consulted in a formal way before a final decision is taken? But there is no more use in talking here because no matter how convincing our arguments may be as soon as the bell rings the dumb-driven cattle will vote against us.

And a few others as well——

The Deputy wants to be identified with that description.

——on that side of the House.

We think this is a good proposition and the Minister's answer is "obstruction". That is a peevish, childish answer.

I think that the excuse for what we have just witnessed from Deputy Lemass is the best argument that could be advanced against the amendment suggested. If the type of obstruction which has been indulged in here this evening, by Deputy Lemass in particular, is indulged in when we are merely discussing the sections of this Bill, I would certainly hate to witness the spectacle of what would happen if Deputy Lemass in all his ignorance of legal matters started to discuss the memorandum and articles of association. Deputy Lemass has talked about a test of the Minister's sincerity and said that he was putting up a sound and reasonable argument. I should like to ask the Minister — and it might give me some guide as to Deputy Lemass's sincerity — if he can make available to this House information as to how often in all the cases when Fianna Fáil companies were established — or perhaps I had better put it when companies were established by the Fianna Fáil Government — when Deputy Lemass was Minister for Industry and Commerce, the memorandum and articles of association——

Were they ever asked for?

And how often they were asked for.

——how often they were brought in here and laid on the Table of the House. The argument is not how often they were asked for. "That is sound business, that is sound procedure"— I am quoting Deputy Lemass —"to protect the taxpayer" and all the rest of it. Remember all those grand phrases which were rolling off Deputy Lemass's tongue into Deputy Cowan's ears a few minutes ago.

When I was a Minister the Opposition always trusted me.

God help the Opposition.

That is why they put the Deputy over there.

If the Minister is able to give me that information and tell me that even once this openhanded and open-hearted ex-Minister for Industry and Commerce came into this House with his bundle of memoranda and articles of association before they were registered and went up to the little desk in front there and laid them down on it and invited inspection from Deputies, then I will possibly have some of the faith and confidence which Deputy Lemass thinks that the members of this and the other Parties here on this side of the House had in him when they were in opposition. As far as Deputy Cowan's arguments are concerned in general on this, I just do not know why he is opposing this measure.

Deal with the amendment I proposed.

Now, I think that would be making a lot too much of the Deputy.

Naturally, I should take a couple of minutes — or a couple of seconds, anyhow—just to get control of myself. I always think it is a wise thing to do after an observation such as that last one. If in previous Bills of this kind Deputies did not ask for the protection that is asked for now, then I say that the last argument of Deputy O'Higgins has no validity at all.

If the argument is good now, it was good then.

They were not asked for.

It was not expected.

It is the duty of vigilant Deputies — and I would certainly like to think I was one of those — to see that the public are protected in any measure of this kind that comes before the House. On examining this Bill, I came to the conclusion that, in the public interest, it was necessary to put down an amendment of this kind. I can assure the Deputy, if he wants to be assured on it, that there certainly was no discussion between Deputy Lemass and myself on these amendments. I put down the amendment which is now before the House: Deputy Lemass put down an amendment which is substantially similar. Deputy Little has made what I thought was a very reasonable request to the Minister — in other words he said to the Minister: "Let these two amendments be dropped: will you undertake to lay this memorandum on the Table of the House, when it is available to be done?" That is a reasonable request and the Minister's answer is: "I would be glad to send the Deputy a copy or any other Deputy who asks for it." That is not the proper approach in a matter of this kind.

It is a good get-away, all the same.

Yes, but it is not the proper approach. I am quite certain that if someone wrote to me from the United States or Canada and asked for a copy of a memorandum I would get it and send it along. What Deputy Little suggested was that the document should simply be placed on the Table of the House, so that there would be official notification in the Orders of the Day that the document had been so laid on the Table of the House.

The Deputy is surprising Deputy Little now.

Then a Deputy can go down to the Library and examine it and if he thinks there is anything wrong with it he can put down a motion which may, at some time subsequently, be reached. As I have already said, this House is responsive to the approach made to it by a Minister. We have had examples of that here. We have had the example of a very difficult Bill piloted through this House by Deputy Cosgrave.

The attitude of Ministers piloting Bills through this House is not relevant to this.

What I am suggesting is that, if the present Minister adopted——

I think that has been said before.

——a proper attitude to the House, probably many of the difficulties that he sees could be avoided.

That good advice has been given on several occasions.

That is the position as I see it. There is a majority in this House now that can push this section through and can put every section of the Bill through, that can defeat every amendment; but this Bill will then be passed simply by the might of the majority. What I want to have done is to have the Bill examined and approved, and I think that the amendment I have down would certainly improve this particular section. I sincerely hope we are not going to be led into a discussion about the past, by the fact that certain papers were not on the Table of the House that should have been on the Table of the House. If we are going to discuss this Bill in that atmosphere——

I hope we will discuss this amendment and not generalities. The Deputy is indulging in a series of generalities as to Parliamentary procedure. He should come down to the amendment.

I have been trying to keep to the amendment and I hope I have succeeded. Probably I could not get as near to the amendment as Deputy O'Higgins. However, the amendment is a very simple one. It simply provides that the memorandum of association will be laid, before registration, before each House of the Oireachtas. Now, this is a reasonably short Bill, containing 17 sections. We are passing it and enabling a company to be formed. That company will have articles and a memorandum of association and these will be drafted by the Minister and approved, apparently, by the Minister for Finance. Under the Companies Acts, those are the things that will govern that particular company. It is not what is in this Bill that will govern the company. The company will be governed under the Companies Acts: its limitations will be laid down and its powers will be laid down there. Those powers may be very extensive, they may be exceptional; there may be considerable objections to them from a public point of view and there may be considerable objection to them from the Deputies of this House. When that position is reached and the company is duly registered, I take it that amendments or alterations in the memorandum and articles can be made only in accordance with the requirements of company law and not merely in accordance with the provisions of this Bill. Consequently, if we do not have the protection that is sought in this particular amendment, our power of control over this organisation called an agency, registered under the Companies Acts and utilised for such purposes as it may be utilised for by the Minister for Finance, is gone. That is a serious matter. The Minister himself must consider that it is a serious matter.

How would the amendment affect that position?

It would be laid on the Table of this House before registration.

And after registration?

The amendment provides for the laying on the Table of the House before registration so that if there are any objectionable features in it attention can be directed to it at once and this House can take such steps as it considers necessary to deal with it. The position will be different when the company is registered. It is wrong for the majority to take the line that because the Minister introduces that section they will vote for it in the form the Minister puts down. I have been in this House as a spectator in the gallery and I have often heard Deputy Davin advocating control such as the amendment seeks to achieve. The very fact that Deputy Davin is like myself, a supporter of the inter-Party Government——

You said that this was never asked for before.

It is wise to try to knock me off the track. What I want to say to Deputy Davin is: If in the past, over many years, he has been insisting on something like this being done, what is the change in this Bill that would enable him to vote for that section and vote against the amendment that has been proposed? That is the position that not only Deputy Davin but other Deputies who have taken that line in the past must face up to. After all, there must be some logic and some consistency in regard to these matters. I am quite certain that, if Deputy Davin were to make it clear to the Minister that he favoured this amendment, the Minister would take a different viewpoint and have a different outlook in regard to it.

Your power is as great as mine—the power of eloquence.

We had the example here the other day on a Bill. I think "Dáil Reporter" referred to the matter. It was to some extent letting down Deputies who had come out and said: "What the Minister is putting up is the right Bill," to find in the end that the Minister let them down. I would rather that we could make the Ministers our servants. That is what we ought to try to achieve. If we try to achieve that, we will do a certain amount of good. There is the Parliamentary approach to all these things. Some people may not have that approach. It would be very simple to abolish an Opposition altogether.

The Deputy surely is travelling a bit.

It is getting interesting now.

I admit I am travelling around and around a certain point.

The Chair is conscious of that fact.

I want Deputies to approach this particular amendment and this particular section in a serious manner. The only serious way in which they can ensure that this House has some control over this peculiar organisation that is to be established is to see that it has a check on it at all stages. I have done my best to convince certain Deputies that they should continue to follow the line that they used to follow in regard to these matters. I may not succeed in doing that as far as this particular Bill is concerned but, at least, I will have the satisfaction of knowing that I have done my best. I cannot do any more.

I want to make perfectly clear what my suggestion was. There are many examples of Acts which have in them clauses stating that a White Paper or regulations or, as in this case, the memorandum of association, shall be laid on the Table of the House and if, within so many days, no motion is put down, it automatically goes into operation. That is what I want to see in the Bill. I remember, and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will recollect, an occasion when he put down a motion under those circumstances and he had a very grave cause of grievance at the time because the motion—I forget whether it was taken within the number of Parliamentary days or not—but it should have been.

It was not.

That was in regard to regulations?

Yes. That is what I want to see in the Bill. It is only fair. It is very interesting and edifying to find Deputy O'Higgins and the Minister relying entirely upon Fianna Fáil precedent as the argument in favour of their attitude on this matter.

No, the argument against your attitude.

I do not pretend to be intimately acquainted with the other Bills that were introduced at the time by the then Minister but every Act must stand on its own legs. In the old days we used to be accused sometimes of imitating British precedents in our Acts of Parliament but here we have slavish imitation of Fianna Fáil Acts as they were passed. It is a great tribute to Fianna Fáil.

Will they follow the precedent on amendment No. 24?

There is another aspect of this particular safeguard. Deputies will remember a book written by a great English jurist on the tendency of modern legislation to become purely bureaucratic by handing over powers to officials to make regulations which did not come before the Parliament. There is a very big principle involved in that and it is in protection of that that I suggest we should have this safeguard in this measure. I would suggest to the present members of the Government and to Deputy O'Higgins in particular that they should not be so sensitive about criticism from the Opposition. All criticism is not obstruction. If the Minister or the Deputy had been in the House at the time, say, when we were trying to get some of our Finance Acts passed and had to introduce guillotine methods in order to get them, or had witnessed the obstruction that was put up to the Constitution of which they all are now so proud, they would know what real obstruction is. It would be well if they would look up that matter and learn what real obstruction was. I think they should be silent about obstruction and less sensitive about the criticism made from this side of the House.

I think the request in the amendment is very reasonable. I do not see why the Minister can object to laying the articles of association before the House. There is no precedent for a Bill of this kind and I am certain that if the memorandum and articles of association are laid before the House, the Minister will have an opportunity of saying specifically what this agency is for, what type of news it is going to collect, disseminate and distribute, and the Labour members will have an opportunity in these circumstances of knowing whether this agency is to go into competition with working journalists. I feel certain that there are men on the Government Coalition Benches to-night who, if they thought, as we think, that this agency will be in competition with working journalists and that it will be taking the livelihood from working journalists, would certainly vote against the measure. I ask the Minister to lay these article of association on the Table of the House, as Deputy Little has requested. I do not see anything unreasonable whatever in that request. The Minister could not be specific when I asked him about differentiating as between news and hot news. It does not arise on the amendment, but it does on the memorandum and articles of association. I think it is a perfectly democratic and a very reasonable request.

I think Deputies should be referred to sub-section (2) of Section 7, which provides that the principal function of the agency shall be to ensure the collection, dissemination, distribution and publication of news and intelligence inside and outside the State. What is that but the function of any newspaper that we have in this country?

Can we not discuss this when we come to Section 9?

You will discuss it now—I am discussing it now.

I am putting that to the Chair as a point of order.

I am waiting to hear what Deputy Cowan proposed to say.

This enthusiasm on the part of Deputy O'Higgins for order is unusual.

We are discussing amendment No. 6, which deals with the first part of Section 7.

Sub-section (2) sets out in this very wide form what the purpose of the agency will be. Under the memorandum of association, there is no doubt that a Minister at some time in the future may set up a Government-controlled newspaper. I am certain that the present Minister for External Affairs has no such intention, but it could be done and the fact that the functions are set out in such a wide fashion in sub-section (2) is all the more reason why the Dáil should insist on the memorandum of association being laid, before registration, before the Dáil. I merely want to make that point in addition to the points I previously made.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Committee divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 47.

  • Belton, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Joseph P.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, Alfred Patrick.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Commons, Bernard.
  • Connolly, Roderick J.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Sir John L.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Fitzpatrick, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Halliden, Patrick J.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hogan, Patrick.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keane, Seán.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kinane, Patrick.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lehane, Con.
  • Lehane, Patrick D.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, William J.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.)
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Sheehan, Michael.
  • Spring, Daniel.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Timoney, John J.
  • Tully, John.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Carter, Thomas.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • De Valera, Vivion.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Friel, John.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, James.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, John.
  • McCann, John.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Richard.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Doyle and Kyne; Níl: Deputies Kissane and Kennedy.
Question declared carried.
Amendment, accordingly, declared lost.
Amendment No. 7 not moved.

Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 seem to be identical in meaning.

Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 stand together. I move amendment No. 8:—

To add at the end of sub-section (1) the words "but shall not authorise the agency to exercise any function other than the principal function as defined in the next following sub-section".

Section 7 says that the objects of the company shall be so stated in the memorandum of association that the principal function of the agency will be the collection and distribution of news. Can the Minister say what other functions the company will have?

I am sure the Deputy is familiar with the memorandum of association of a company in which you have invariably to provide for other functions that are incidental to the main function. That is all that it is intended to cover by this section. The main purpose is that set out in the Bill, and the other purposes are incidental to it. There is no mention of having anything else that is not absolutely essential or that does not flow from the main purpose.

Will the Minister give the House an assurance that the memorandum of association will not be so framed as to give the company any other function except that stated in the section or functions incidental or ancillary thereto?

Certainly.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 9 not moved.

I move amendment No. 10:—

To delete all words after "be" in line 24 to end of the section and substitute the words "the preparation, dissemination, distribution and publication of articles and news of a high literary and cultural standard in the interests of the Republic of Ireland outside the State".

The object of this amendment is to endeavour to ensure, as far as possible, that this news agency will not be a competitor with our own national newspapers within the jurisdiction of the State.

I take it that amendments Nos. 10 and 11 can be discussed together?

Yes. The sub-section is very wide. It states that the principal function of the agency shall be to ensure the collection, dissemination, distribution and publication of news and intelligence inside and outside the State. If this agency has any purpose at all, its purpose should be to present to the people of other countries views in regard to this country. That purpose can be served without giving power that would enable the agency to disseminate, distribute or publish its news and intelligence within the State.

On the Second Reading, the Minister stated that he wanted to make a certain position clear—I am speaking now from recollection—and that Deputies would have to face up to the fact that when this news agency was operating it was inevitable that the Taoiseach and himself should figure in its news more than the ordinary back-bench Deputy. I am not altogether clear as to the exact words of the Minister but I can recollect the Minister making some observation of that nature—that we have to face up to the fact that there would be more publicity given to himself and the Taoiseach than would be given to other Deputies. I am not worried a terrible lot from the point of view of what may happen, but I am worried that the architect of this particular agency should feel it necessary, or should think it wise, to make any such observation as that during an early stage of the Bill.

On a point of order. It seems to me that this is irrelevant to the matter we are discussing.

I take it that the Deputy has put down his amendment in order to explain what he is objecting to.

I can see that this particular objection is not welcomed by Deputy O'Higgins. I can imagine some other Deputies asking if this is relevant, but as the section provides what the news agency can do and the amendment sets out to limit that considerably, I could not possibly imagine anything more revelant than these few observations of mine. Why did the Minister introduce that note into the discussion—that the Taoiseach and himself would feature more in this particular matter than other Deputies? I dare say the gentlemen the Minister met in Boston, those newspaper proprietors who told him that they would buy all the copies of this production that he would send over to them and that they would welcome them are the same type of gentlemen who would buy our horses or our cattle or our Blarney Stone while smoking one of their long cigars after a very good dinner. I am surprised that the Minister should think there would be any great sale for this production on the assurance given in these circumstances by that type of person.

I do not think any of us would worry what propaganda there was in regard to the Taoiseach and the Minister for External Affairs in Boston or anywhere else. What we are concerned about is that the public money of this country will not be utilised by any Minister operating this Bill for the purpose of personal or Party advantage. That is a matter which deserves the consideration of the House. I was frankly worried when I heard that observation on the Second Reading of the Bill. I am quite sure that we can send out quite valuable material about this country and its resources and about the position of Partition without any mention of the Taoiseach or the Minister or any Deputy. The Minister for External Affairs has always stated—I have heard him say it often—that it is always well to take your fences quickly.

What is important is what is stated in the Bill, not what the Minister stated on any particular occasion.

In other words, leave the House under no misapprehension that this particular organisation will give considerable scope from the propaganda point of view to the Taoiseach and the Minister.

It is not so stated in the Bill.

As the Bill is certainly wide enough to do that and the Minister has left us under no misapprehension, because he said we were not to complain if that should happen——

Will the Deputy quote what the Minister said?

I will certainly have it available on the next day the Dáil sits. I am just running "on the choke".

On the clock.

What about the "high literary and cultural standard"?

I think that is probably too high a standard to set. However, if the amendment were accepted in principle, probably that high purpose might be toned down somewhat in subsequent stages of the Bill.

It would be a pity to tone it down.

Those are the reasons that I advance in support of this amendment which I think is a good one. I am quite sure that if the Minister gave any consideration to it he would have seen that it would improve the Bill and help to make it more acceptable to the House as a whole. When I put it down I certainly felt that the Minister would probably indicate at an early stage that the general principle enshrined in it would be accepted.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Wednesday, 16th November, at 3 p.m.
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