Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Nov 1949

Vol. 118 No. 7

Irish News Agency Bill, 1949—Committee Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on amendment No. 10:—

To delete all words after "be" in line 24 to end of the section and substitute the words "the preparation, dissemination, distribution and publication of articles and news of a high literary and cultural standard in the interests of the Republic of Ireland outside the State."—Peadar Cowan.

Captain Cowan

When progress was reported on the last occasion this Bill was before this House, I was explaining to the Dáil my reasons why the amendment in my name should be accepted in preference to the sub-section as it stands. I indicated that the section was dangerously wide and that it enabled this news agency to be operated for the dissemination of news within the jurisdiction of the State. I pointed out what I considered to be an objection to that in view of the observations made by the Minister on the Second Reading of the Bill, and the Minister invited me to quote what he had said on the Second Reading of the Bill with regard to that. I find the Minister's observations reported in column 843 of the Dáil Debates of Wednesday, 13th July, 1949, Volume 117, No. 6:—

"I want to make it quite clear that it is inevitable that in any publicity, inside or outside the country, statements made by the Taoiseach or by myself, as Minister for External Affairs, are bound to get more publicity than any other statements."

Those were the observations of the Minister to which, speaking from recollection, I drew the attention of the House and I find that my recollection was quite good with regard to what the Minister did say. What perturbed me about that is that at that stage of the Bill the Minister should consider it desirable or necessary to make such an observation that in any publicity inside or outside the country statements made by himself or by the Taoiseach were bound to get more publicity than any other statement. Obviously the Minister must have been giving some consideration to the value of the news agency from the point of view of publicity for the Taoiseach and for himself because otherwise I could not imagine a statement like that being made on the Second Stage of the Bill. I think that the Minister made that statement clearly so that if in the future there are objections or comment about propaganda or publicity given by the news agency he would be in a position to say: "Well, I warned the House clearly on the Second Reading of the Bill that it was inevitable that statements made by me were bound to get more publicity than other statements." This House would then be faced with the position that having heard that very clear statement from the Minister they had given him the Second Reading of the Bill. I think, therefore, that it is undesirable and dangerous to agree to the sub-section as it stands, which says that the principal function of the agency shall be to ensure the collection, dissemination, publication and distribution of news and intelligence inside and outside the State. My amendment would probably be too restrictive because it would limit the agency to articles and news of a high literary and cultural standard in the interests of the Republic of Ireland outside the State. When, again on the Second Stage of the Bill, the Minister was queried as to what this news agency would produce he said, reported in the same volume on the same date at column 841:—

"I consider that the news agency, when in operation, should aim at issuing approximately anything from 500 to 1,000 words a day, reckoned with a view to the particular market where it is directed. The news items should be selected to be of interest in the particular part of the world to which they are being sent."

It was the Minister's view—and I take it that he had given some consideration to the matter—that this elaborate news agency would produce 500 to 1,000 words a day and that is not what one would call extensive writing. I make a rough calculation that it would be about 750 to 800 words, in other words there would be produced by this news agency the amount of print that fits in one page of the Official Reports. There are approximately 800 words in one page of the Official Reports. The Minister, therefore, visualised at that stage of the Bill that this elaborate machinery, which incidentally is going to cost us £25,000 a year, will produce an article each day about the size of one page of the Official Debates. I felt that if that is the limit of production visualised by the Minister then clearly, on the lines of my amendment, it should be of a high literary and cultural standard. I do not think it is asking too much of the gentlemen or ladies that the Minister will find to govern, advise and operate this news agency. I think that the House should know clearly at this stage whether the Minister has revised his thoughts and views regarding the productive capacity of the news agency since he made that declaration on the Second Reading. If he has not, this 500 to 1,000 words a day will cost roughly £500 a week and allowing people of the standard and quality the Minister has in mind to work a five-day week this production of 800 words will cost £100 a day. If it is reasonable to ask for £100 a day, for 800 words, we ought to have a very high literary and cultural standard and that should be insisted on. It is for those reasons that I put down that limitation in the amendment to which I am now speaking.

At any rate, whether the Minister will continue to work on the lines of his original estimate or not, I think it is particularly dangerous to have the very wide powers that are contained in the section.

Mr. Lemass

We are discussing the objects of this news agency as set out in the Bill, and to the sub-section of Section 7 which defines the objects of the agency both Deputy Cowan and myself have moved amendments. These amendments may have technical defects, but the Minister cannot be unaware of the fact that the vagueness in the definition of the objects of the agency, in sub-section (2) of Section 7, has caused considerable anxiety amongst professional journalists. I believe that all Deputies have received a communication from the Chairman of the Social and Welfare Committee of the National Union of Journalists, one of two trade unions of journalists operating here. In the course of that circular, it is stated:—

"National Union of Journalists members attached to the daily and periodical Press are perturbed by (a) the general air of vagueness which surrounds the manning, intentions and scope of the proposed agency; (b) the fact that the articles of association and memorandum have not yet been approved by the people's representatives in Dáil Éireann——"

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

Shades of Deputy McCann!

Mr. Lemass

I think Deputy McCann is a member of the other trade union of journalists.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

That is why I referred only to shades.

Mr. Lemass

The circular continues:

"(c) the possibility that trade unionists who are not acquainted with the terms of the articles and memorandum may unwittingly support a matter that might eventually jeopardise the livelihood of trade union journalists; (d) the fact that the descriptive word ‘news' in the title of the proposed agency may bring about a position whereby foreign newspapers and magazines will be supplied with ‘free news' by civil servants, while trade union journalists who depend for a living on the dissemination of news to foreign journals will be forced into unemployment."

The anxiety which professional journalists have over the wording of this sub-section arises in two forms. The wording suggests that the news agency can engage in the publication of news inside Ireland. The Minister explained that it was not the intention to trade in news here and that the reference to "inside Ireland" was necessary because of the wording of the sub-section, which refers not merely to the publication of news but also to its collection.

The amendment which I framed was an effort to meet that argument and, while it may not be technically perfect, it is intended to ensure that the news agency will be limited by statute to the publication of news outside the country. The Minister has said that that is its main, if not its sole, purpose. If there is any reason why it cannot be limited to that function by the terms of the section, then we should have at least from the Minister a very clear definition of the policy that he intended that the news agency should follow.

The anxiety of journalists, however, is not merely due to the fact that the terms of the section appear to permit of it trading in news in Ireland. There is a number of professional journalists in this country who make a living, or add to their livelihood, by acting as correspondents for foreign newspapers; and while the Minister may say that it is not intended to interfere with the practice of journalists as correspondents of foreign newspapers, it is anticipated that, in its effort to provide some sort of service for foreign newspapers, the agency will, in fact, be cutting across the work done now by professional journalists or, alternatively, that foreign newspapers occasionally desiring any feature story about Ireland will communicate with the agency for the purpose of getting such a story, rather than with the professional journalist whom they previously employed.

The statement made by the Minister to the effect that the agency will not deal with "hot news"—that is, the type of news which a professional journalist will send to a newspaper, knowing that it will be welcome because of its character—does not meet the case at all. Most of the professional journalists who are earning a livelihood acting as correspondents for foreign newspapers are supplying a weekly letter, or a general review of events or, as I have already mentioned, writing commissioned articles. As I understand the Minister's statement, that is precisely the type of thing that the agency is going to do.

I think the Minister would be well advised to reconsider the terms of sub-section (2) if he desires to make it clear that this agency will not intervene in any part of the work now being done by professional journalists. He will understand that Deputies here, and professional journalists and their trade unions, would prefer to have that limitation upon the functions of the agency expressed in the form of an amendment to the Bill rather than in a vague declaration made by the Minister during the course of the debate.

Mr. Byrne

There has been a good deal of repetition in the debate and the points made by Deputy Lemass are points that I also was going to make. I have a similar letter to that which he has quoted and if he had not read out the points I would have done so. To avoid repetition, I would merely ask the Minister to give some safeguard to journalists who are correspondents for newspapers outside this country that this Bill in no way will interfere with the additions that they may have to their earnings at home. Furthermore, if through any set of circumstances information is supplied by his Department to these news agencies, could he suggest some amendment that would give the journalists credit for such news, by having it sent out through the local representative of that paper who was resident in Dublin?

I agree that it is necessary to have an agency of some kind to put over news in foreign parts. It is most annoying to find articles in continental papers, even American and English papers, that are detrimental to this country or to public men in this country, and which are not contradicted. Often I have been tempted to reply to some of these attacks and have decided, on second thoughts, not to do so. The Minister should take steps to ensure that any denials that are found necessary or any information that it is desired to give that would be of benefit to the country should go through the Irish representative of the paper in which it is proposed to publish the denial or information. I would ask the Minister to see that any publication in any part of the world that is detrimental to this country will be contradicted, if he thinks contradiction is necessary. There are large numbers of Irishmen all over the world. It is difficult to get people here to appreciate that there are more Irishmen abroad than there are in Ireland. These people have a keen interest in this country. I have been asked the question by Irishmen in Liverpool, London, Birmingham or the Continent or America: "What are you people at home doing for us?" Recently, I was away from home and I was told to listen to a broadcast from a foreign country by a lady who, apparently, has a weekly half-hour programme from the particular station. I was rather late for the programme but I understand that that person made a very dirty attack on this country, which caused indignation on the part of those who heard it. It was their opinion that if such broadcasts could not be contradicted by permission of the international organisation controlling broadcasting, somebody representing this country should be authorised to broadcast a repudiation from the same station.

Mr. Lemass

Is there not a High Commissioner's Office in Canada to do that?

Mr. Byrne

I am not talking about Canada. What I want to know is, if somebody has the right to go to a broadcasting station and indulge in an attack on this country, will the international organisation controlling that air line give this country ten minutes or half an hour in which to reply to the charges? If it cannot be done that way, the news agency would be a good way of dealing with it. At present we are doing nothing. I have read in newspapers and weekly journals from many parts of the world scurrilous arguments attacking this country and I have watched for months afterwards in the particular papers for a contradiction. Our countrymen abroad have to suffer the consequences of such publications or broadcasts. It is nothing new. Forty years ago I remember the point being made in another Parliament that the English Press was holding our public men of that time up to ridicule. It was a terrific job to live it down.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is travelling from the amendment.

Mr. Byrne

That point is covered in part by the amendment. Previous speakers have asked the Minister to give some guarantees that the news agency would not interfere with those already engaged as correspondents. The Minister has been asked to see that they will get some credit for publications in the journals they represent. I earnestly hope that the earliest opportunity will be taken to deny, if necessary, attacks upon this country in foreign papers or by foreign broadcasts and that people will not be allowed to get away with false statements that are harmful to Irishmen abroad.

Mr. Little

Would it not be quite possible for the Minister to issue all these to the correspondents in Dublin?

Mr. MacBride

Certainly.

Mr. Little

And to do it with the greatest impartiality, so that any of those people who wished to use it could use it?

Mr. MacBride

Certainly.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

Is it suggested that the acceptance of Deputy Cowan's amendment by the Minister would automatically protect the association of journalists on whose behalf Deputy Lemass pleaded, because, if that is Deputy Lemass's argument, it seems to me to be the grossest insult to the journalists of this country to put forward the argument that articles of high literary merit would not be handled by journalists and, therefore, it would not affect their livelihood?

Mr. Lemass

That would merely rule out the Minister's speeches.

Mr. MacBride

I am very indebted to Deputy Byrne and Deputy Little for having raised this particular question. The very point which they both raised, of course, is one of the reasons why it would be fatal to limit the distribution or dissemination of news to places outside the country because, as Deputies know, when a corporation is limited, either by statute or by its memorandum and articles of association, to certain functions, it cannot go outside them. The news agency would be precluded from disseminating news to correspondents over here. That is one of the reasons why it is necessary to leave this provision in the Bill as presented to the House.

In dealing with this particular point, another function which I hope the news agency will be able to fulfil will be to supply news to the short-wave broadcasting station, when it is operating. Much of the material which the news agency would issue would be material that would be useful also for the short-wave station. In other words, it would be specialised material for America, for Australia and for places abroad, matters of particular interest there, matters of certain news value there. For those two reasons alone, it is necessary that the news agency should have power to disseminate news within the country as well as without the country.

I hope, too, that on occasions the news agency may be of assistance to our own newspapers here in furnishing them with news items of Irish interest abroad which they at present do not receive. There are a great many articles, a great many references to Ireland, that are of news value at home that very often do not get into the newspapers. We try in the Department at the moment, but we are not equipped for that, to convey these to the newspapers whenever we come across them but there is no systematic organisation for distribution of matters of that kind. So that I hope the news agency may be in a position also to give news to our own papers here on matters of Irish interest abroad that are not of sufficient news value for the ordinary news agencies or which the ordinary news agencies miss for some reason or another. That deals with that particular point.

Deputy Lemass read a circular which he received, and which, I gather, some other Deputies received, from Mr. Brennan, who is chairman apparently of the social and welfare committee of the National Union of Journalists. It is the first time I have seen the circular. I was away in Donegal and did not see it, but it may have reached my house while I was away. I had the pleasure to-day of discussing the position with a deputation from the National Union of Journalists. Their anxieties, quite naturally, were that, in so far as it was possible, the staffing of the news agency should be from members of the National Union of Journalists or some other recognised trade union. I sympathise entirely with their views in that respect, and, in so far as I can possibly ensure it, I will ensure that only qualified and trained journalists are used in staffing the news agency. The other matters mentioned in the circular were not raised as such by the deputation. I had seen a letter in papers and I mentioned some of the points in it, but the deputation did not seem to attach very much importance to them.

What occurs to me is that the points which have been made by Deputy Lemass are all points which can be made against any news agency, and, on that basis, the journalists should oppose the formation of any news agency. Reuter, Press Association, Associated Press and the United Press are all news agencies catering for news, but, in fact and in experience, it has been established that they do not in any way cut across the work which is available for what we might call freelance journalists or correspondents of individual newspapers. I have no reason to think that the Irish news agency would in any way cut across the work which is being done by any Irish journalists at the moment. As a matter of fact, I am quite certain it would not, but that, on the contrary, it would stimulate more work for journalists in Ireland. At the moment, the position is that the supply of news from Ireland, apart from a few newspapers which have their own correspondents here, is left to the sole monopoly of news agencies which are not Irish, which are, in the main, English, and therefore most of the news emanating from Ireland emanates via London and that is the very evil which we want to try to remedy. I imagine that the effect of the Irish news agency on other institutions and papers will be to stimulate their interest and their competition in the matter of supplying better news on Ireland.

On the question of the type of news and the question of the need for this agency, I have here a number of articles—editorials and editorial comments—from American newspapers and from the Manchester Guardian, emphasising the need for the creation of this news agency and applauding the action of the Government in creating it. If I may read to the House an extract from an editorial, it will possibly help to emphasise the reasons which make the creation of an Irish news agency so essential. Here is an editorial in the Gaelic American of 23rd June of this year:—

"For some time now, the official views of the Irish Government have not enjoyed the world-wide newspaper coverage to which they are entitled. Frankly, anti-Irish propaganda, skilfully presented from London, has robbed Irish views of widespread publicity. The British are experts in this line. They have taken every advantage of their position and the value of a London ‘dateline.' The result has been that Irish views remain in the background, and if published, come along long after the alert British Information Service have presented their views to the world. That puts the officials of the Irish Republic at a great disadvantage, and they suffered from it in the formation of all important world public opinion.

We have known for some time that the officials of the Dublin Government realised the disadvantages of this situation. They have talked and considered means of meeting the problem for some time. Now, they have decided to act and we are delighted. It was announced in Dublin this week that the Government contemplates the organisation of an Irish news agency. For this purpose a Bill will be introduced in the Dáil making the news agency an official body which will supply official Irish news to the newspapers of the world. The agency will give the official views of Ireland on all public affairs and will be ever alert and ready to counteract anti-Irish propaganda from whatever source it may come. This should have been done years ago. Had it been, much of the misunderstanding concerning Ireland and her views would have been avoided."

The New York Inquirer of June 27th carried a sub-editorial headed: “Good News from Dublin”:—

"The Government of Ireland has decided to establish an Irish news agency for the purpose of furnishing Irish news to papers all over the world, to make known Ireland's views on public affairs, and to defeat anti-Irish propaganda.

This decision is to be heartily commended.

Ireland has suffered greatly from distortion, falsehood and suppression in the field of news dissemination concerning matters of the utmost importance to her. She must make herself heard and understood by all the world with that success which is so necessary to the attainment of her absolute independence and so that she can gain and maintain for herself that high international standing to which she is so rightly entitled.

The establishment of an official Irish news agency has been very long overdue. Ireland's friends in the United States, who have observed the evils of anti-Irish propaganda in this country, are gratified by the action of the Irish Government."

I have numerous other articles in the same strain. I feel that from that point of view the importance of creating an Irish news agency is obvious and it would defeat the purpose if the emission of news from Ireland were to be left the monopoly of news agencies which operate outside the country.

Deputy Cowan quoted what I said on Second Reading. What I said was said in reply to suggestions made during the course of the debate that this news agency might be used for the purpose of giving undue publicity to members of the Government, to them or to their policy. I dealt with that and pointed out that it was inevitable that members of the Government—the Taoiseach and myself in particular— were bound to receive more publicity abroad, in relation to statements made concerning Government policy, than other persons. That is inevitable and I want to point out to the House that no matter who is Taoiseach or Minister for External Affairs, naturally their statements will receive wider publicity than the statements of other persons here. That was the position under the last Government. It is the position under this Government and it will be the position under future Governments.

Mr. Coburn

It is common-sense.

Mr. MacBride

You cannot detract from a Minister the fact that he is Minister. You cannot detract from the Head of the Government the fact that he is Head of the Government and you cannot represent abroad that the Minister for External Affairs is not Minister for External Affairs, no matter how much you may dislike him personally. Deputy Cowan wielded an ingenious argument about 750 words. I should be extremely happy to think, or if I could feel satisfied, that this news agency was going to get 250 words published every day in the Press of the world. It would pay extremely high dividends if we could ensure that. I pointed out that I thought that the news agency should aim at furnishing from 500 to 1,000 words per day, for different parts of the world. I have not totalled what the aggregate amount of words would be but it is quite obvious that matters that may be of news value in the United States may have absolutely no news value for Australia, Germany or England. I would feel that the news agency was fulfilling its task quite efficiently if it could provide 500 to 1,000 words, beamed on different parts of the world and specially prepared for consumption or use in different parts of the world.

I do not think that I need deal seriously with the question of the proposed amendment to limit the material to be distributed by the news agency to articles and news of a high literary and cultural standard. I do not know who would determine the highness of the literary or cultural standard. I should feel very sorry for the unfortunate editors or sub-editors of the news agency if that onus were cast upon them by statute. Besides, part of the functions of the news agency will be to deal also with political matters. If it has to refute, as no doubt it will have to refute, various pieces of anti-Irish propaganda it will have to deal with political matters.

Mr. Lemass

There were two or three points made by the Minister in his speech which, I think, require clarification because I think what he has said has added to whatever confusion exists concerning the purpose of this agency rather than to remove it. With regard to the leading articles which he read from the Gaelic American and the New York Inquirer, I assume that these articles were not written by him, inspired by him or concocted by him.

Mr. MacBride

They were neither written nor inspired by the Minister and he did not know of them until he read them.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

He does not write under a pseudonym.

Mr. Lemass

The Minister should forthwith inform their papers that he is not establishing the type of agency to which these articles refer. It is quite clear that these newspapers have been misled by the statements made by the Minister here into believing that it is a news agency, but if we accept the Minister's word, it is not going to deal with news at all. It is really going to be a sort of extension of the information services of his Department.

Mr. MacBride

Nonsense.

Mr. Lemass

The Minister says "nonsense."

Mr. MacBride

If I say a thing is black, the Deputy will say it is white and if I say it is white he will say it is black.

Mr. Lemass

"It is not proposed that the news agency should enter into the field of ‘hot news.' To non-journalist members of the House I might elaborate that. It is not intended that the news agency should supply reports of accidents, crimes, racing, Dáil Debates or Stock Exchange reports."

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy give the reference for that?

Mr. Lemass

That is the Minister's speech as reported in columns 761-2 of the Dáil Debates of the 13th July last. A number of statements made by the Minister would appear to suggest that this organisation is going to deal with news as journalists understand that term, not merely with matters of a cultural, trade or general interest, which was the phrase he used when introducing the Bill. He need not be getting annoyed.

Mr. MacBride

Cultural and trade matters may also be the subject of news.

Mr. Lemass

A very great part of the confusion that has arisen in the minds of Deputies and journalists, and in the minds of the editors of the New York Inquirer and the Gaelic American arose from the fact that this agency is being called a news agency. These people thought of it as something which appears to be different from what the Minister has in mind. If the Minister had not called it a news agency the conclusion might still exist but it would be very much less pronounced. He has spoken about supplying Irish newspapers with news on matter of Irish interest which the ordinary news agencies might not handle. There is no news agency supplying any Irish newspaper which will not supply that newspaper with any type of news it requires. It is a common matter for a newspaper to direct one or other of the agencies supplying it with news to cover matters of special Irish interest in the field of sport, culture, politics, trade or any other phase of news. Such special coverage is, I think, a regular feature of news agency work. If there is to be a service of news supplied to Irish newspapers from this agency dealing with matters of Irish interest, what form is that service going to take? Will the newspapers be expected to pay for it? Will they enter into a contract with this news agency as they enter into a contract with other agencies for a regular supply of news or for the supply of particular news or for the special coverage of events of a particular kind as they arise?

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

It was Deputy Little asked for that.

Mr. Lemass

I wish Deputy O'Higgins would make less noise. He is extraordinarily foolish but he does not realise how foolish he is showing himself to be by these interruptions. He obviously did not know what he was talking about.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I do not know what you are talking about.

Mr. Lemass

If you keep your ears open and your mouth shut, you will learn something.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Lemass must be allowed to make his speech.

Mr. Sweetman

Deputy Lemass very seldom allows other people to do that in this House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not justify interruptions from other quarters.

Mr. Lemass

I am trying to get this matter clarified, if it is possible to do it. There seems to be as much confusion in the mind of the Minister, and much more confusion in the minds of Deputies sitting behind him, as amongst journalists who think their interests are affected by it.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

You are doing your work well.

Mr. Lemass

It is quite clear, as I understand it, that this agency is not going to supply news in the accepted sense of the term to the Gaelic American or the New York Inquirer or any other newspaper but the general type of letter which these papers may get from professional journalists now, or should be getting from our diplomatic representatives abroad, just as we are getting them here from foreign diplomatic representatives accredited to this country. If there is misrepresentation of the Irish position in newspapers abroad, have we not got people paid already to deal with it, either diplomatic representatives or Press attachés? If the agency is to supply news to Irish newspapers, on what terms is it contemplated they will do so? Will newspapers be expected to enter into a contract for the supply of the news, will they be expected only to pay for the news they use, or will they get news free? Are not these question that should be answered before the Dáil passes the section?

We are told that this agency will supply a news service to the short-wave broadcasting station. As I understand it, Radio Éireann for its news service requires to employ whole-time journalists at present. Is it intended that the short-wave station will not require the same service as Radio Éireann, that the journalists employed by Radio Éireann will not be able to assist in the work for the short-wave station, and that that work, in so far as it relates to the dissemination of news, will be so inadequate that it can be done on a part-time basis by people employed in the news agency whose main concern will be directed to work of another character? If the short-wave station is to function as efficiently as Radio Éireann—and that does not reach a very high standard—in the matter of the distribution of news— then presumably it will require its own professional journalists to prepare its bulletins and to arrange for their publication, just as Radio Éireann does.

The statement that news at present supplied to the world about Ireland comes from British agencies, while not quite correct, because there are other than British agencies operating here, again raises doubt.

Mr. MacBride

A large portion of it is.

Mr. Lemass

That statement again raises doubt as to what this agency is going to do. Is it going to compete with the commercial agencies in the supply of news? The trouble which Deputies have in understanding the purpose of the proposed agency is that the Minister is contradicting himself, because we all understood after the Second Reading debate that the agency was not going to compete with the commercial agencies in the supply of news. Now, the clear implication of his remarks is that it will. My amendments certainly were tabled, and I assume Deputy Cowan's also was tabled, for the purpose of clearing up the situation—to get the Minister to reveal to us what is in his mind. It is what appears to be his deliberate vagueness which has given rise to all the suspicion attached to this proposal. We feel something is being submitted here which has ulterior motives behind it and, if the Minister wants to remove that suspicion, to make it clear that his proposal is above-board, he will have to be a great deal more frank than he has been.

Mr. Lynch

In the course of his reply, on the question of the danger of journalists being disemployed or losing a portion of their work, the Minister stated that the establishment of this agency would provide more work for journalists. I presume that was an attempt to allay the fears of the National Union of Journalists and of some Deputies who spoke on behalf of journalists generally. I should like to ask the Minister, having regard to the wording of this section and the whole tenor of his reply that journalists are not justifiably suspicious of this particular section, why he states that the agency may publish news and intelligence inside and outside this State. I take it from that and from what the Minister stated that the news agency may supply direct to newspapers items of news and intelligence generally. Does not that in itself mean that ordinary journalists, apart from whatever journalists or civil servants will be employed on the news agency, will be cut out from at least a certain portion of their work? Everyone knows that newsprint is in short supply at present. So far as I can see, it does not appear that there will be much improvement in that respect in the near future. Journalists from all over the country supply items of news to newspapers and, from want of space, it often happens that these items never get into the newspapers. Therefore, if this news agency is to be permitted to supply the newspapers of this country with items of news—and newspapers, I take it, will be more apt to accept items of news from the news agency than from the ordinary independent journalist—does not that necessarily imply that there will be less work for journalists as a result of the establishment of this agency? I ask the Minister to clarify that point for me.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I think it is only right to call the attention of the House to the justification which we have just received from Deputy Lemass of the charges of vexatious obstruction which the Minister has made against him in relation to this Bill. Deputies who were in the House when Deputy Lemass first intervened on this amendment will remember that the reason he gave for supporting the amendment and the reason which he said motivated him in putting down a somewhat similar amendment—I think amendment No. 11—was because he was afraid the livelihood of journalists in this country might be affected by the passing of the Bill. Any Deputy who is in any way fair minded in his approach to this Bill might have sympathised with Deputy Lemass in putting up that viewpoint, particularly because of his interests in the newspaper world and because he had been approached on behalf of journalists to do so. But the Minister met that point very fairly and made it quite clear to Deputy Lemass, Deputy Cowan, Deputy Byrne and others interested in this question that, as far as he could ensure it, he would see that this agency was staffed by qualified journalists.

Mr. Lemass

That is not in the Bill.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

It was in the Minister's reply. Having been met very fairly with regard to the reason which motivated him in putting down the amendment, Deputy Lemass then trimmed his sails very quickly and decided that he would try to create a little bit of confusion in order to cause anxiety to journalists who might be affected and he gave out that type of nonsense to which we have just listened. Deputies will remember that the Minister also, in reply to a question put by Deputy Little, did mention that there would be no difficulty at all in seeing that Irish journalists receive copies of whatever material is being made available by the news agency. Deputy Lemass apparently overlooked that, and went on to attack precisely the opposite. In other words, he was attacking the suggestion which had been made by Deputy Little. Whatever confusion has arisen on this measure has been caused by Deputy Lemass alone, and it is because Deputy Lemass wanted to cause confusion. Let there be no mistake about that. Deputy Lemass wants to have the argument two ways: either the news agency is a fake and, consequently, it could not be supported by Deputies, or else the news agency is something that is going to be a success, and then it should not be supported by Deputies because it will endanger the livelihood of journalists. Now Deputy Lemass cannot have it both ways. If he would make up his mind and let us know what is in his mind on this, for whatever that is worth, then a certain amount of the confusion which he is endeavouring to cause will gradually creep out of this debate.

The amendment which we are discussing is amendment No. 10. It has been moved by Deputy Cowan. It proposes that, in sub-section (2) of Section 7, instead of the words "to ensure the collection, dissemination, distribution and publication of news and intelligence inside and outside the State", we should insert the words "the preparation, dissemination, distribution and publication of articles and news of a high literary and cultural standard in the interests of the Republic of Ireland outside the State".

I agree with Deputy Cowan to this extent, that I would like to see whatever is produced by or on behalf of the Irish news agency at least up to some standard of literary merit. Deputy Cowan may be trying to kill this Bill by kindness. He knows as well as I do the type of work which it is contemplated should be done. There is really no need for any confusion about this. It was made quite clear on the Second Reading of the Bill. I have not heard the matter discussed on this section, but it was made clear on the Second Reading that the type of work in which this agency will be interested will be in connection with Partition. I do not want to discuss again the principle of the Bill. I think Deputy Cowan will appreciate that the work to be produced by the agency must be of a type, and up to a standard, which will attract attention rather than that we should seek for flowery phrases or high literary merit, and particularly if there is any justification at all for Deputy Cowan's fears that in any event it does not matter a whole lot because it will go into the waste paper basket without it ever having been opened.

Captain Cowan

Most of it.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I think that a great deal of the time of the House is being taken up in a most unnecessary way on this Bill, discussing it section by section, by reason of the vexatious and obstructionist amendments put down by Deputy Lemass, purely for the purpose of obstructing and confusing the minds of Deputies and the minds of people outside.

Mr. Little

The word obstruction is becoming a kind of King Charles' head with Deputy O'Higgins. He introduces it on every occasion. Apparently, any speech made on this side of the House is obstruction.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

Except yours.

Mr. Little

My speeches are always pretty short. The Deputy is confusing everything that Deputy Lemass has said. There were several queries in the points that Deputy Lemass made. There is the question of journalists getting the news. I assume that the news agency will give journalists, who are correspondents for papers abroad, these items free. Now, that has nothing to do with the newspapers in this country or with the other commercial news agencies, or the broadcasting station. These are different matters. In the case of the broadcasting station, there will be a certain amount of overlapping. As a result of a considerable amount of care and trouble an excellent staff was established in the broadcasting station. That was done through the channel of the Appointments Commission.

Mr. MacBride

I did not suggest that we should interfere in any way with the present news agency for the broadcasting station. It is quite obvious that, in preparing a news service for the short wave station, it will have to be news of a completely different type from the news which we use on our own station here.

Mr. Little

When the staff was being built up in the broadcasting station we had in mind that the news service on which a good deal of money was being spent, would also be used by the short wave station. That being so, it seems to me that there is a certain amount of overlapping. I think Deputy O'Higgins is just as confused in his mind on that as he is on other matters. I should say that he was obstructing in the debate more perhaps than anybody else. What we want to get are answers to the questions which were asked by Deputy Lemass with regard to newspapers in this country and the commercial news agencies.

Captain Cowan

I feel that the position is not being clarified, and that, in actual fact, it has become a little bit more cloudy and confused than it was. I think part of that arises from the fact that the Minister plunged into this idea of a news agency. He gave us, on the Second Reading, certain ideas that he had in his mind as to what that news agency was to be, but having come up against some practical difficulties he has different ideas now. I can understand the anxiety of journalists in regard to this position. I understood from the Minister that he had an interview with representatives of the National Union of Journalists to-day. As a result of that interview, he told us that, in so far as he could do it, he would ensure that there would be qualified and trained journalists to staff the news agency. Now, clearly that is not what he was asked to do by the National Union of Journalists. What he was asked to do was to staff it with trade union journalists which is a different thing. It would be a simple matter for the Minister now to clear this up once and for all—for the House and for the journalists—by saying that this news agency will be staffed by trade union journalists.

Mr. MacBride

If I did not say that when speaking, I certainly told the deputation to-day that, so far as I could influence it, it would be staffed by experienced trained journalists who were members of one or other of the unions.

Captain Cowan

That clarifies——

Mr. A.P. Byrne

That is what the Minister said a quarter of an hour ago.

Captain Cowan

No, he did not. I took down what he said. I wanted to have that point clear. It is clear now that, in so far as the Minister can influence it, it will be staffed by trade union journalists.

Mr. MacBride

I explained certain limitations that may arise to the National Union of Journalists.

Captain Cowan

That point is clear, that they will be trade union journalists. The other matter that concerns journalists is the point as to whether or not their livelihood will be affected by this agency. The Minister has just said that he is going to make this available for the newspapers and I take it when he says "newspapers" he means the daily newspapers and the weekly newspapers. If this is made available for the newspapers here, it is clear that a considerable amount of it will be used, particularly by the newspapers in the country, weekly newspapers. It is further clear that if it is used extensively it must affect employment on these newspapers; certainly it must affect the employment of people who send particular articles to them.

On the last day when we were discussing this there was some idea in the Minister's mind that journals might contract with the agency to buy material from it. I do not know whether that is the Minister's viewpoint to-day. I do not know if there is any point in that as to whether or not there will be a contract to purchase news from the news agency, or whether there is the idea that the Minister had in mind on the Second Reading, that this news would be circulated.

On the Second Reading the Minister was asked a question on that point and he said that he then visualised that the news agency would be organised somewhat on the following lines:

"There will be a small office here whose function it will be to select and rewrite items of news that are likely to be published, say, in America. These particular items will then be transmitted to a small distributing office in the United States. The function of that distributing office will then be to transmit the news so received to the newspaper desks and news agencies in the neighbourhood. Likewise, in London I visualise a small receiving and transmitting office. According as news is received from here, from the small central office here, news, say, for Australia or New Zealand, it will be transmitted to the London offices of the Australian and New Zealand Press. The same will apply to India, the British newspapers, the Canadian newspapers, and so on."

That clearly visualises a free distribution of news, and I gathered from the Minister to-night that, so far as our own journals are concerned, that is, the daily and weekly and monthly periodicals, there will be a free supply of news to them. Obviously, journalists must have some concern in regard to that and that is one of the matters on which journalists, as I understand it, would like to have some assurance from the Minister now.

Now, with regard to America, the Minister told us that there are 3,000 to 4,000 newspapers there, that 700 of them are important, and that one of the principal functions of the news agency will be to place on the news desks of these 700 newspapers news of political, cultural, trading or tourist importance that would not otherwise be supplied to the news desks of these newspapers. I take it the two journals, the Gaelic American and the New York Inquirer come within the category of the 700 important newspapers out of the 3,000 or 4,000 mentioned.

The reason why I am so keen on either my own amendment or Deputy Lemass's amendment being adopted is that I can see serious danger in the future, if we pass the Bill with the section as it stands, because clearly there will be power there to flood the Irish newspapers with matters that may be of a difficult propaganda kind, and I want to avoid that. The Minister may say he has no intention to do that, but, after all, Ministers and Governments change, and a Government does not necessarily follow what the preceding Government was doing or intended to do. I can see that there would be a very serious and dangerous weapon in the hands of a future Minister for External Affairs who might be unscrupulous and that is why I think it is the duty of the House to protect the people against that danger.

It is clear, I think, that we cannot hope to compete with some of the big news agencies that have been mentioned by the Minister. The Minister said that the British news agency was a powerful one, but I gather from the extracts which he read from one of the American newspapers on the Second Reading that it was one of the complaints of Britain, great and powerful as she was pre-war, that they were not able to compete successfully in South America with a French news agency. Now, where do we stop?

With regard to the cultural aspect— in relation to which Deputy O'Higgins has spoken rather kindly about my amendment—I understand that the directors the Minister proposes to appoint under this Bill will be civil servants. The number of directors will be not less than three or more than five, and I understand it is the Minister's intention to appoint civil servants to the positions.

An Ceann Comhairle

That would be under Section 8.

Mr. MacBride

We are rambling very far.

Captain Cowan

I know it comes under Section 8, but it is relevant to the point I am making as regards cultural productions. If we have three civil servants in charge of this organisation are we going to have cultural productions, or are we going to have the type of productions that civil servants usually produce—cautious, careful and statutory?

Mr. MacBride

Is the Deputy suggesting that journalists are incautious and not careful?

Captain Cowan

I am on culture now.

Mr. C. Lehane

The Deputy has not been reading Myles na gCopaleen.

Captain Cowan

I do not believe that Myles na gCopaleen will be one of the directors of this. We have now our staff of trained journalists. We have the provision of 750 to 1,000 words per day. Clearly those 750 or 1,000 words could not be permitted to be circulated without these three or five civil servants examining them very carefully. What then shall we get? I think we are driven back to some of the descriptions applied by Deputy Lemass to this entire business. I would ask the Minister to clear up the point now. Will these items prepared for circulation have to be approved on a Civil Service standard?

Mr. Lemass

And get the sanction of the Minister for Finance.

Captain Cowan

Clearly, if they have, it is immaterial whether the Minister places them free on the tables of newspaper offices or distributes them from an aeroplane because they will never see print except in some poverty-stricken newspaper in the back of beyond. I ask the Minister to clear up that point now. If the Minister will even go so far as saying that he is prepared to consider the case made here and to endeavour to remove from the section those words which make it a menace and a danger in the future, then I think the House would accept that. I ask the Minister to give the matter consideration and to tell us that he will remove from this section the extensive powers to which we have taken objection this evening.

Mr. McCann

I feel that the Minister has said nothing yet to allay the apprehensions of the journalists in this country. Deputy O'Higgins said that Deputy Lemass was merely obstructing this Bill. As I understand the position, I believe that the Minister met a deputation of the National Union of Journalists. On the last occasion here I spoke on behalf of those journalists. I do so again to-night. The Minister is sufficiently conversant with the working of newspaper offices to know that this Bill, if made an Act, will adversely affect journalists in relation to their livelihood.

Mr. MacBride

Would the Deputy specify his apprehensions?

Mr. McCann

The apprehensions which I stated here. One is the simple apprehension that these men's livelihood may be taken away either in whole or in part.

Mr. MacBride

Why?

Mr. McCann

Because the Minister will send out news. At one stage the Minister says that news will be free and the next moment he says that he hopes the agency will ultimately be a paying proposition. I do not know what the Minister means. The only thing I do know is that, if this Bill becomes an Act, journalists will be very seriously affected. Why could the Minister not indicate to the journalists the particular papers in America, Australia, New Zealand or elsewhere that are prepared to take news of a certain type? That would seem to be the obvious thing to do. Is this to be merely a propaganda news agency? If it is, then what is going to be done with the £50,000 collected at the church doors throughout the country for the anti-Partition campaign? One will cut across the other.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy would appreciate the fact that we are discussing the amendment and not the entire Bill, we might get on more rapidly.

Mr. McCann

I am speaking of the distribution and publication of a certain type of news. Surely that is relevant.

An Ceann Comhairle

The collection at church doors is not relevant.

Mr. McCann

The Minister says that he will safeguard the position by putting in journalists where possible. I do not know what he means by that. Will he be able to influence the employment of trade union journalists? They are the words he used to-day to the deputation of the National Union of Journalists. That is not a guarantee. The journalists want a guarantee that it will be staffed by trade union journalists.

Mr. MacBride

Have the journalists working in the Irish Press got that guarantee?

Mr. McCann

I am concerned with a matter to which Captain Cowan referred a moment ago. That is, the board of control. It does not come under this section, but I understand we shall have an opportunity of discussing it under another section. I am interested in the advisory body. These are the trimmings to make the Bill look all right in the public eye. Will the Minister get down to hard facts? Will he tell us precisely what this agency will do? What type of news will it disseminate? There are journalists in this country who make an additional income out of sending news to other countries, such as those mentioned by the Minister. The establishment of this agency will be a serious matter for them. Is it right that Parliament should vote public money for the purpose of going into competition with these men? I do not like the trend shown in this measure.

Mr. MacBride

The Deputy would like to leave it in the monopoly of England, then.

Mr. McCann

To my mind Irish journalists are the most competent people to disseminate news. Deputy O'Higgins said that Deputy Lemass was merely employing obstructive tactics. I speak on behalf of working journalists and I want the Minister to clarify the position for the working journalists.

Mr. Byrne

I just want to ask one question to clear up the position. The Minister stated that trade union journalists would be employed. When he met the deputation to-day did he satisfy them? Is it his intention to bring in an amendment or to modify this Bill in such a way as would satisfy the representatives of the journalists?

Mr. MacBride

There is no possibility of bringing in an amendment to the Bill to meet that position. I told the National Union of Journalists, firstly, that I have had the privilege of being a member of the National Union of Journalists myself for a great many years. I was probably the only member to go out on strike and picket a newspaper office.

Mr. C. Lehane

Picket the Irish Press.

Mr. MacBride

I said that I would, so far as I could, ensure that working experienced journalists who were members of a recognised trade union would be employed in the news agency. I pointed out to them that it would be impossible to include an amendment to that effect in this Bill any more than it would be possible to include an amendment, say, in the Transport Bill, to provide that everybody employed by Córas Iompair Éireann would be a member of a given union.

Mr. Lemass

That is the law.

Mr. MacBride

The nearest equivalent, I understand—I have not had an opportunity of looking into it—is a fair wage clause which is inserted in some circumstances. I would be prepared to consider the insertion of a fair wage clause, but I do not see the necessity for it. I cannot visualise that this news agency would refuse to pay the trade union rates of wages or salaries to those employed by it. It is not usual to include such clauses in the various Bills passed by this House setting up such companies.

On the Second Reading I went very fully into the reasons which made the setting up of this news agency necessary. I outlined these reasons in detail. I outlined in detail the purposes which this news agency would fulfil— including the type of news it would issue. I am afraid that I am driven to the conclusion that the attitude of the Opposition has been a deliberate attempt, to confuse, to mislead, and to obstruct. I cannot take the amendments that have been put forward as serious amendments. Deputy Lemass's aim has been to try to stir up suspicion and trouble in the minds of the journalists in Dublin. I wish that he would see that the editors of his papers are members of a trade union before he speaks.

Mr. McCann

The Minister does not give the journalists credit for much intelligence if he thinks that Deputy Lemass can make them do that, one way or another.

Mr. MacBride

Deputy Lemass has already done untold damage in this House on this Bill. His remarks about "a bogus company" have been featured in the Unionist press in Belfast and will, no doubt, be utilised by the Unionist propaganda organisations in England and America later on.

Mr. Lemass

That does not make it less a bogus company.

Mr. MacBride

This is a deliberate attempt to sabotage one of the most effective steps this Government could take to counteract anti-Irish propaganda abroad. This news agency is an integral part of the Government's plan to deal with Partition. Deputy Lemass's attitude and the attitude of the Opposition is a typical attempt to try to hinder the Government.

Mr. Lemass

The debate is not going to end to-night.

Mr. MacBride

The Leader of the Opposition goes to Donegal, where Partition is not an issue, and makes speeches about Partition.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not see that the actions of the Leader of the Opposition in Donegal have anything to do with this Bill, unless we want a very wide debate.

Mr. MacBride

The debate has ranged very wide. Numerous things have been said and I am trying to reply to them. I agree with the Ceann Comhairle that possibly the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition do not see eye to eye on this matter.

Mr. Flanagan

Is it now recognised that Deputy Lemass is the Leader of the Opposition?

Mr. Lemass

Is this the split? Will the news agency deal with that?

Mr. McCann

It will disseminate you, Oliver.

Mr. MacBride

The position was set out extremely clearly when I was asked by the Leader of the Opposition some years ago to investigate the starting of an Irish news agency and when the considered view of the Government then was, as stated in a letter to me on the 30th November, 1945, as follows:

"The help given to any Irish agency would be so misrepresented publicly as to kill all hope of the agency ever succeeding. It is for that reason that another course must be taken. The agencies abroad to which you refer were helped either without public debate or at the time when the state of politics in the particular countries left the Government free to do a good, national act without it being made into a crime."

The attempts of the Opposition in this debate have been to confuse the issue, to try to stir suspicions in the minds of the journalists who have nothing to lose and everything to gain by the creation of such a news agency.

Mr. McCann

What have they to gain?

Mr. MacBride

Employment, which they would not otherwise have. There would be more work here for journalists and, in so far as I can ensure it, it will be trade union work—and not like the Irish Press where people who are not even journalists are employed.

Mr. Lemass

I think that a great deal of the ballyhoo that we have heard from the Minister is for the purpose of covering the answers to the questions.

Mr. MacBride

I shall answer this Remember, I shall hit back. You will get it the whole way through.

Mr. Lemass

It is the Minister who is obstructing——

Mr. MacBride

Employ trade unionists in your own paper first.

An Ceann Comhairle

That has nothing to do with the amendment.

Mr. Lemass

It is going all right now, since the Minister left it. The Minister stated that this news agency will supply news to Irish newspapers. What news will it supply? Where will it get the news? Will it want payment for the news and, if so, on what basis? Are these reasonable questions?

Mr. MacBride

The Deputy's paper at the moment is very glad to publish news supplied to it by my Department.

Mr. Lemass

By the Government Information Bureau?

Mr. MacBride

Through the Government Information Bureau, on the question of publicity abroad in regard to Partition. That is a type of news. There is no suggestion of supplying any other type of news to Irish newspapers.

Mr. Lemass

Where do you get the news?

Mr. MacBride

I am not going to go into it.

Mr. Lemass

Is the news agency going to maintain correspondents in other countries to get news for it?

Mr. O'Leary

Ask the Dáil Reporter.

Mr. MacBride

I have already said, on the Second Reading, that it proposes to have an office in the United States and in Great Britain.

Mr. Lemass

A distributing agency? The Minister changes his mind. That is what Deputy Cowan has just said.

Mr. MacBride

No. I am not changing my mind, not one iota.

Mr. Lemass

These offices in the United States and in Great Britain are not merely going to be small distributing agencies. They are going to be collecting agencies. From whom are they going to collect the news? Are they to maintain their correspondents in various parts of the world or are they going to get the news from existing news agencies? A lot of what has been said in this debate has been irrelevant to the particular amendment. With regard to the question of the employment of trade union journalists, will the Minister agree to insert in this Bill exactly the same provision in relation to that matter as now exists in the Railways Acts? Deputy Davin would, I think, accept that as being a reasonable safeguard, to ensure that the conditions of employment of journalists would be settled in accordance with agreements made with the trade union of journalists.

The Minister scoffed at the idea of the law relating to the railways but I would point out to him that that is the law relating to railways and I think that a similar provision in this Bill would meet completely the anxiety of journalists on that score. But of course we are discussing here their anxieties on other scores, not that score at all. That point might arise on a subsequent amendment. The point we are discussing relates to the work of the agency, not who is going to do the work, but the manner of doing the work. Is it going to interfere with the additions to their incomes that professional journalists now have, many of them professional journalists employed on daily papers, in acting as correspondents for foreign newspapers and writing articles commissioned by foreign newspapers?

Mr. MacBride

Of course not.

Mr. Lemass

Then what is the agency going to do at all? Deputy O'Higgins put the issue quite fairly— I do not often agree with Deputy O'Higgins but on this occasion he did put the issue fairly—when he asked whether this is a fake or is going to interfere with journalists in their professional work. One or other of those two things is true and we want to find out which. Personally, I think it is a fake.

An Ceann Comhairle

May I put the amendment?

Mr. Lemass

May I say that I prefer not to press amendment No. 11, the amendment in my name, particularly if I get an assurance from the Minister that he will introduce into the Bill the amendment which he himself suggested equivalent to that which appears in the Railways Act?

Question put: "That the words stand part."

The Committee divided: Tá 70; Níl 43.

Tá

• Beirne, John.
• Belton, John.
• Blowick, Joseph.
• Brennan, Joseph P.
• Browne, Noel C.
• Browne, Patrick.
• Byrne, Alfred.
• Byrne, Alfred Patrick.
• Coburn, James.
• Cogan, Patrick.
• Collins, Seán.
• Commons, Bernard.
• Corish, Brendard.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Costello, John A.
• Crotty, Patrick J.
• Davin, William.
• Kinane, Patrick.
• Kyne, Thomas A.
• Larkin, James.
• Lehane, Con.
• Lehane, Patrick D.
• McAuliffe, Patrick.
• MacBride, Seán.
• MacEoin, Seán.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• McMenamin, Daniel.
• McQuillan, John.
• Madden, David J.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Morrissey, Daniel.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Murphy, William J.
• Norton, William.
• Desmond, Daniel.
• Dockrell, Maurice E.
• Donnellan, Michael.
• Doyle, Peadar S.
• Esmonde, Sir John L.
• Everett, James.
• Fagan, Charles.
• Finucane, Patrick.
• Fitzpatrick, Michael.
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Flynn, John.
• Giles, Patrick.
• Halliden, Patrick J.
• Hickey, James.
• Hogan, Patrick.
• Hughes, Joseph.
• Keane, Seán.
• O'Gorman, Patrick J.
• O'Higgins, Michael J.
• O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Reilly, Patrick.
• O'Sullivan, Martin.
• Palmer, Patrick W.
• Pattison, James P.
• Redmond, Bridget M.
• Reidy, James.
• Reynolds, Mary.
• Roddy, Joseph.
• Rooney, Eamonn.
• Sheehan, Michael.
• Spring, Daniel.
• Sweetman, Gerard.
• Timoney, John J.
• Tully, John.

Níl

• Allen, Denis.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Bourke, Dan.
• Brady, Seán.
• Breathnach, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Buckley, Seán.
• Burke, Patrick.
• Butler, Bernard.
• Carter, Thomas.
• Childers, Erskine H.
• Colley, Harry.
• Corry, Martin J.
• Cowan, Peadar.
• Crowley, Honor Mary.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Vivion.
• Gilbride, Eugene.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hilliard, Michael.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kissane, Eamon.
• Kitt, Michael F.
• Lahiffe, Robert.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick J.
• Lydon, Michael F.
• Lynch, John.
• McCann, John.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• McGrath, Patrick.
• O'Grady, Seán.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• Rice, Bridget M.
• Ruttledge, Patrick J.
• Ryan, James.
• Ryan, Mary B.
• Ryan, Robert.
• Sheridan, Michael.
• Traynor, Oscar.
• Walsh, Richard.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Doyle and Kyne; Níl: Deputies Kissane and Lynch.

Question declared carried.

Amendment No. 11 not moved.

Section 7 put and agreed to.

SECTION 8.

Mr. Lemass

I move amendment No. 12:—

Before Section 8, to insert a new section as follows:—

Every appointment to any situation in the service of the agency shall be made by means of competitive examination conducted according to regulations to be made by the Civil Service Commissioners.

Is the Minister accepting this? I am assuming that the Minister will be willing to accept this amendment.

Mr. MacBride

Nonsense.

Mr. Lemass

Well, the Minister accepted earlier provisions on the grounds that they were contained in previous Acts for which I was responsible. So is this and if he were logical he should accept this because it is taken from previous Acts which were passed by this Dáil.

Mr. MacBride

Will the Deputy refer me to a previous Act?

Mr. Lemass

Will the Minister inform me by what means——

Mr. MacBride

Would the Deputy mind referring me to one, not to quite a number?

Mr. Lemass

From recollection, I can mention the Act which established the Institute for Industrial Research. I think I am also correct in saying that a similar section appears in the Act which relates to the establishment of a National Stud Company. There is certainly a number of the Acts of the Oireachtas.

Mr. MacBride

Do the Civil Service Commissioners appoint the members of the staff of the National Stud Company? I would not like to think that they sit for a Civil Service examination.

Mr. Lemass

Let us be clear as to what we are asking for. It is that the appointment of the servants of the agency would be conducted by some competitive test in accordance with regulations made by the Civil Service Commissioners. I do not know whether all Deputies feel that it is desirable that appointments to positions in organisations of this kind, established by statute and financed out of public funds, should be on the basis of merit. Assuming that there is agreement that it should be on the basis of merit, then, obviously, there must be some impartial method of determining the merits of applicants. The Civil Service Commission was established to discharge that function in relation to the Civil Service and it is quite capable of discharging that function in relation to the staff of this news agency also. Perhaps the Minister would tell the Dáil how he thinks the staff of the agency should be appointed, by what precise method of selection they are to be chosen.

Mr. MacBride

The staff of the news agency will be appointed presumably by the directors, who will determine the manner in which they should be chosen. I am not aware that similar provisions to that in the amendment exist in other statutes. Even if they do, I do not think that a Civil Service examination or an examination laid down by the Civil Service Commissioners would be a suitable way of appointing newspapermen to positions in the news agency or as correspondents abroad.

I am not aware that the Deputy, when he was Minister, was so careful in the appointments under his régime, either in relation to the chairman of Córas Iompair Éireann or the general manager of Córas Iompair Éireann.

Mr. Little

Would the Minister examine the way in which the staffs on the radio were appointed? It was certainly done in accordance with Civil Service regulations and done very effectively. The examinations were conducted and the decisions were made on merits by a neutral body.

Mr. MacBride

I will examine anything that can ensure that the best journalists possible will be appointed to these positions.

Mr. Lemass

The Minister's attitude is particularly childish. May I say, for the purpose of the record, that I did not appoint either the chairman or the general manager of Córas Iompair Éireann.

Mr. MacBride

No, but they were appointed on legislation passed by this House, which was proposed by the Deputy.

Mr. Lemass

The chairman was.

Mr. MacBride

Presumably the general manager, too.

Mr. Lemass

On the contrary. If the Minister took the precaution of studying the legislation, he would realise that I never had anything to do with that appointment.

Mr. MacBride

The Government had to deal with it, under the legislation which was passed.

Mr. Lemass

If we are to go into that, we can go into other matters. Part of the functions of this agency will be to supply news to Radio Éireann. Does that mean that the existing commercial agency supplying such news will be replaced by this agency?

Mr. C. Lehane

On a point of order——

Mr. Lemass

Are we going to get personal?

Mr. C. Lehane

How can that arise on the present matter?

Mr. Lemass

How does the Chairman of Córas Iompair Éireann arise?

Mr. Davin

Forget all about it.

Mr. Lemass

It was stated by Deputy Cowan that he had information to the effect that the directors of this agency were to be civil servants. Is that correct?

Mr. MacBride

No.

Mr. Lemass

They are to be appointed by the Minister? How are they to be appointed?

Mr. MacBride

As provided by the Act.

Mr. Lemass

With no control, as far as the Dáil is concerned, over the staff?

Mr. MacBride

The Dáil will have control by holding the purse.

Mr. Lemass

There will be no assurance given to the Dáil that selection will be on the basis of merit?

Mr. MacBride

The Dáil can be assured that no brothers of any member of the present Government will be appointed to the board.

Mr. Lemass

I take it that the Minister proposes to maintain this childish attitude and is going to refuse to meet the Dáil honestly?

Mr. MacBride

It will be done honestly and efficiently.

Mr. Lemass

By means of personal abuse?

Mr. MacBride

No personal abuse, but I have listened to enough personal abuse from the Deputy.

Mr. Lemass

The only personal abuse has been uttered by the Minister.

Mr. MacBride

The Deputy has accused me of bringing forward a dishonest measure, of getting up a bogus company, and he has tried to do as much damage as he could, not merely to me but to the country in general.

Mr. Lemass

That is my opinion, and I intend to hold it, and the day has not yet come when I will be prevented from expressing my opinion.

Mr. MacBride

I am entitled to refer to the practice of the Deputy when he was Minister and introduced measures to this House in relation to appointments.

Mr. Lemass

And quite a number of those measures contain a clause similar to this one.

Captain Cowan

On a point of order, I sincerely hope that the news agency will not be used to circulate the sort of stuff we have just had in this House.

Mr. MacBride

So do I. I move to report progress.

Progress reported.