Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 Dec 1949

Vol. 118 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Vote 65—External Affairs.

Minister for External Affairs (Mr. MacBride)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £16,990 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1950, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for External Affairs and of certain Services administered by that Office (No. 16 of 1924), including a Grant-in-Aid.

This is a Supplementary Estimate for £16,990. This Supplementary Estimate is rendered necessary by reason of devaluation. It is estimated that the total increased cost on the basis of the Estimate for the current year, that is, from 18th September to the end of the current financial year, will be in the neighbourhood of £25,000. Therefore, it will be seen that the Supplementary Estimate amounts to less than the total additional cost thrown on the Department by reason of the recent devaluation. However, by reason of savings on different sub-heads and money which was not spent, it has been possible to limit the amount of the Supplementary Estimate to £16,990. The total additional cost thrown on the Department of External Affairs by reason of devaluation would amount in the full year to approximaely £46,000. The House, will appreciate, of course, that the allowances, salaries, rents, travelling expenses, sustenance allowances, and so on, payable in respect of our posts abroad have all been very substantially affected by reason of devaluation. The additional burden thrown on the Department has been particularly heavy in regard to the United States. The amounts are shown in separate items in the Supplementary Estimate.

The first item is in relation to travelling expenses in respect of the headquarters. The increased amount is partly due to devaluation and also partly dur to increased activity in the Department. The creation of the Council of Europe, the work connected with the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation, have added to the amount spent on travelling expenses. In addition, we had this year a delegation at the Red Cross Conference in Geneva, which lasted some four months. The House will also bear in mind that practically all travelling expenses have been substantially affected by the increased cost in our currency arising from devaluation. The sub-head is also intended to cover travelling expenses which may be necessary this year by reason of the visit of the Taoiseach and myself to Rome in connection with the Holy Year ceremonies.

The next item is in relation to official entertainment, which has been substantial this year by reason of two main causes. First, because of the number of distinguished visitors who have visited this country during the course of the year. The number was heavier than had been anticipated. The House will recall that we had a great many very important and distinguished visitors to this country. The Government felt that adequate entertainment should be provided. The House will recall that we had, among others, Pandit Nehru, Prime Minister of India, the Aliquat Ali Khan, Prime Minister of Pakistan. We had, in addition, numerous visits by Ministers from Australia, Canada and the United States and we also had a large pilgrimage of visitors from Boston. As well, many members of the American Senate and Congress visited our shores. We were glad to receive them and we felt that the necessary provision should be made for their entertainment here.

The next sub-head is in relation to information material. This is a new sub-head to cover production costs of booklets, pamphlets and posters produced by the information section of the Department. They include the production and distribution of a bulletin from our legation in Washington and of a special bulletin issued by the Department here. The costs of the publication of the bulletin in Washington have been fairly heavy, but we feel that it has more than justified its cost. Apart from the political aspect of the work carried on by the information section of the Department, there is also the Economic Co-operation Administration and the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation aspects of it. Under the bilateral agreement entered into in relation to the working of the Economic Co-operation Administration, we undertook adequately to publicise the whole programme here.

The next item is in relation to salaries, wages and allowances of representatives abroad. In the main, the increases are due to devaluation. In the case of the next item also, travelling expenses connected with posts abroad, the increase is also largely due to devaluation. The increased activity of the Department on the information and political side, as well as on the economic side, is reflected in the additional cost for postage, stationery, telegrams and telephones.

The last item is an item of £390 in relation to property belonging to two officers of the Department which was destroyed in our Berlin legation premises on 22nd December, 1943, in the course of an air-raid. The property of one officer, amounting in value to £385, was destroyed, and the property of another member of the legation staff, valued at £3, was also destroyed. If there is any point on which any member of the House would like to have further information, I shall be glad to give it.

Mr. de Valera

There are some savings referred to on which I should like some information. One of these is the saving on the news agency service and the other in relation to the non-filling of certain posts. Perhaps the Minister would be good enough to tell us what are the posts which have not been filled?

Mr. MacBride

Offhand, the press officer posts at London and New York are vacant. As the House will recall, provision was also made for the filling of a post at The Hague in connection with the opening of a legation there. That post has been filled. The vice-consular posts at Boston, Chicago and San Francisco have not been filled, but staffs have been taken into the Department and we hope to be able to fill them shortly.

Mr. de Valera

The sum of £13,000 is a rather large item which is scarcely covered by the cases mentioned by the Minister, but there may be some others. However, it gives us a general indication of the nature of the posts that have not been filled.

Every Deputy must be concerned with the rapid increase in the amount required for this Department. We started this year with an Estimate of £207,000 and now the sum required is £278,000—an increase of over one-third. If Estimates are to be of any value at the beginning of the year they ought to be reasonably near the sum required, and, in view of the fact that the filling of other posts is in the offing, the question arises whether we shall not be asked for more within the year.

The Minister referred to the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation, and the Council of Europe. It seems to me that these are not covered by this Vote at all. They are covered by a separate Vote and the expenses, such as travelling expenses and so on, ought to be covered by that Vote. They are not provided for, so far as I understand, in this Vote.

Mr. MacBride

The Deputy is perfectly right, in so far as delegates to the Council of Europe are concerned, but not in so far as staff or some of the travelling expenses are concerned.

Mr. de Valera

It seems to me that that is bad accountancy. It would be very much better if we had the expenses in connection with the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation, and the Council of Europe as a separate item, so that we would know exactly what sums of money were being spent on them. I have no idea how far the expenses in connection with the Council of Europe and so on are being provided for in the present Vote or whether, if the increase is due to devaluation, we shall not also have to deal with it in connection with the other Vote. If this supplementary is the result of devalution. I am surprised that we did not have another Supplementary Estimate in connection with Vote 73.

As I say, everybody must be concerned with the rapid increase in the amount necessary for this Department. We have had an increase in the total Estimate of over one-third since it was introduced. We on this side opposed the news service because we felt that every 1d. that can be spent on this is required and any 1d. that is spent has to be justified. If we go back to 1947-48, we find that the Estimate has gone up by 80 per cent., which means that, for every £100 then spent, according to the audited accounts, we are now spending £180. The items which can scarcely be referred directly to devaluation are those required for headquarters purpose, and perhaps travelling expenses, to some extent. The sum provided for entertainment has gone up from the original Estimate this year of £4,200 to £6,500, and, comparing that with the Estimate for 1948-49, we find that, for every £100 then spent, we are spending £240 now. Devaluation can scarcely have accounted for the fact that travelling expenses have gone up to the extent that, for every £100 spent in 1948-49 on this item, we are spending £360 now.

Of course as to the total Vote, if we want to see exactly what External Affairs is costing us we must add the sums to be provided under other Votes. If you make deductions for the possible receipts you find that there is still a sum of £24,000 on the wrong side and if you add that to the £278,000 you get over £300,000. That is very nearly twice what it was in 1947-1948. If we add the Organisation of European Economic Co-operation and the Council of Europe we find that we are not very far short of one-third of £1,000,000. Everybody who is anxious about the increase of public expenditure must be anxious about the rapid increase in the Vote for this Department. The present Government was particularly strong at the election time on the question of reducing public expenditure. Since that, instead of being reduced, public expenditure has gone up. The total amount for the Supply Services in 1947-48 was less than £60,000,000, £58.9 millions, and in 1948-49 it went up to £64.6 millions. You have there an increase of close on £6,000,000. In the present year if you take the Estimates as originally introduced it is £65.4 millions and with the Supplementary Estimates there is no doubt whatever that at the end of the year that will have gone up considerably. I think it is only right that these things should be pointed out.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, speaking here recently, said that every Minister should be as careful of the public money as he is about his own. I think everybody will agree that that should be the attitude of every Minister, and it must be the attitude of the Opposition to see that every penny which is asked for is justified. It is not possible for anybody who has not got the accounts to go into each particular item and satisfy himself that every item of expenditure is justified; all we can look at are the main trends and tendencies. Everyone knows that there are posts which have yet to be filled. I should like it to be deduced from the whole of this argument that in view of the fact that we are a small country with limited resources, and have to play an important part in the world, we should be careful that no penny is spent except it is absolutely necessary and justified.

This Vote will ultimately reach about one-third of a million pounds. Remember, you cannot go back. You can refrain from filling certain posts for a time, but the moment they are filled you cannot go back, and therefore you should advance very carefully indeed. I must admit that devaluation has affected the position with regard to many of our representatives abroad in hard currency countries, and therefore some of this extra provision may be justified. I am not in a position to tell whether these Estimates are close ones or not. I take it that some are to cover expenses which have already been incurred and others prospective expenses. We cannot satisfy ourselves in detail with regard to these matters and have to depend on the Department and on the checking Department, the Department of Finance.

With regard to the item about information, we on this side of the House are concerned that whatever information is sent out should be sent out as State information and should not bear any Party complexion. The confidence of members of the House in Departments of State will be seriously weakened if any documents which are sent out can be reasonably regarded as having a Party complexion. I have been thinking whether it would not be possible to get greater confidence with regard to documents of that kind. In the first place, in the case of documents sent out which are not confidential it ought to be possible to have copies in the library. I mean documents that are circulated but are not confidential documents in the sense that they are from the Minister to his officials. Documents that go from a Department to newspapers or bulletins should be available for inspection in the library of the House. Another idea that occurred to me regarding documents of that sort was whether it was possible to have a Committee of the House under the chairmanship of the Ceann Comhairle to inspect or pass them as being really State documents and not Party. I have not thought out that idea very fully and it might not possibly work. I would be concerned, however, with the fact that we will lose a great deal of the confidence of the House in the work of Departments if there seems to be any just basis for the complaint that they are of a purely Party character. This Estimate contains a fraction of the amount that is required for the news agency service. There is £14,000 saving which has not been used up to the present. We feel that the whole £25,000 should be a saving on that basis and as long as there is any fraction of that expense being provided for we cannot support the Estimate.

Mr. C. Lehane

I will not delay the House more than a very few minutes. There are only one or two points made by the Leader of the Opposition with which I would like to deal. A great deal of what he said appeared to be based on the view that members of the present Government had advocated a policy of retrenchment, in some instances for retrenchment's sake. That is a policy to which Clann na Poblachta never subscribed nor was it a policy ever advocated by our Party or by the present Minister. Deputy de Valera's plea for consultation regarding official bulletins and documents issued which could be described by the generic term "State documents" between the Government and the Opposition is one with which, perhaps, many Deputies could have a good deal of sympathy, but I think it is a plea that comes badly from the Leader of the Party opposite because, during the period of office of the present Opposition Party, that consultation was denied to other Parties in the House on very many important matters and in respect of very many important State documents. The approach that I feel the House should make to this Estimate is that it is a proof that the Department of External Affairs is now alive, is conscious of the job that has to be done in placing this country on the map and in placing in the forefront of our external policy the wrong of Partition. In saying that, I do not want to be taken as being hypercritical of the failure of the Opposition when in office, because I am prepared to concede that there were world factors operating which did prevent them from doing many of the things which are now being done.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not think the Deputy should widen this out into a debate on Partition.

Mr. C. Lehane

I do not propose to do so.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy comments on that, others are entitled to reply.

Mr. C. Lehane

I have finished what I had to say about Partition.

Mr. Childers

On a point of order. Are members of the Opposition now permitted to comment on the statement made by the Deputy that the Department of External Affairs has become alive? That opens a very wide issue. Does that relate to the Estimate and can it be refuted?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have not heard it.

Mr. Childers

The Deputy said it.

Mr. C. Lehane

The point I was endeavouring to make—I thought I made it perfectly clear—is that during the period that has passed there were world factors which prevented the expenditure of as much money as is now presented to the House in this Estimate. I am in no sense attempting to make Party capital in my approach to this Supplementary Estimate. The consideration that I would put before the House is that, in the more normal times which have now returned, it is in the very nature of things that it would be possible and proper to spend an increased sum under the various sub-heads set out in the Estimate. We all know perfectly well that in previous years it was not possible for representatives of this country, for Ministers, to travel in order to put our case before the world as it has been possible to do so within the last 12 months or as it will be possible within the next 12 months. I think Deputy Childers was a little bit premature in imputing to me a desire to approach this Supplementary Estimate in a partisan or controversial fashion. That was not my desire. Owing to Deputy Childers' interruption, I was not allowed to develop the point I was making. Let me repeat it again for his benefit. In the changed circumstances of the present day, it is in the very nature of things that it is possible properly to expend money under the various sub-heads set out here.

Deputy de Valera attempted to minimise the fact that devaluation was responsible for many of these increases. No matter what attempt is made to minimise it, Deputy de Valera must realise that it would be impossible for us to expect to get efficient service to the State from our representatives abroad unless we are in a position to maintain them in a proper fashion. The only comment that I have heard from our people who have visited America and other countries on the Continent, particularly with reference to America, is that we are not spending enough money in this Department, because, in so far as it is concerned with putting Ireland's case for the reintegration of our territory before the world, it is one upon which there can be no retrenchment; that we should approach it with a prodigal mind and a desire to spend every penny possible in order to achieve the reunion of our country.

Mr. de Valera

Is it possible to speak again?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, we are in Committee.

Mr. de Valera

With regard to the question that some of these sums are intended to cover material for putting the facts of Partition before the world, I think that this is a wrong way of doing it. If a sum of money is required to put the facts of Partition before the world we ought to have a definite sum voted for that purpose and it should not be used as a sort of blanket to cover every sort of expense. The only expenditure under this Estimate that deals with information material directly is £8,000. I think that this House would be willing to give a much larger sum than £8,000 if it were suggested that its purpose was to put the case of Partition before the world and that it was a separate Vote. I am prepared to support any proposition of that sort. It is a wrong way of doing it, however, to use Partition as a sort of blanket to cover up criticism which may be justly levelled at various sections of the Estimate.

I did not minimise the question of devaluation. I said with regard to our representatives abroad, in America and other places, that that has to be taken into account. Rough figures are given here—£6,000 and other sums. The Minister mentioned the sum of £25,000 as being the sum necessary altogether. I am not in a position to estimate what it would be. It would require a more detailed calculation, an accountancy calculation, to find out exactly how much money would be required to cover the increased cost due to devalution.

Mr. MacBride

Will the Deputy accept it from me that my Departmental officers estimated that the added cost due to devaluation for the current year was £25,000? It is not my estimate.

Mr. de Valera

I accept that. The main duty of the Opposition in connection with this Estimate is to examine each item and to see that every item of public expenditure is justified. I accept £25,000 as being the sum necessary to cover that particular point and, therefore, the Estimate would have to go up by that amount in any case. I agree with that. I take it, however, that the Minister is not going to suggest that devaluation had anything to do with the amount spent, for instance, on headquarters' entertainment — entertainment in Ireland. I do not think that devaluation could possibly cover the increase there. That increase has been justified on a different basis—that we had a number of foreign visitors coming to the country who had to be welcomed in a proper manner. I have had too much experience of the need of that to be one of those who would decry reasonable expenditure in connection with entertainment. I am not going to do that. I shall leave that to the people who, when they were on this side of the House, were scandalous in their criticism of the necessary expenditure in that particular regard. It is vital when foreign visitors come here that they should be treated in the same way as Ministers and others from this country are treated when they go to other countries. That is essential.

What I have been trying to argue is that as these expenses have to be incurred, the necessary part of our expenditure is going to be so great for a small country such as this that it is vital that everything else which is capable of being cut out should be cut out; that we should not try to expand too quickly or behave as if we were a very wealthy nation. As the Minister knows, there are some further places to which it will be necessary to send representatives. Each of these representatives will require a staff and that will add some thousands of pounds to the Estimate. We have, therefore, to move cautiously. It may be unavoidable, but I am disturbed at the rapid growth of this Estimate, because I know that, whatever sum you reach at any particular time, there is no going back.

Captain Cowan

What I feel, and I have expressed it more than once in regard to External Affairs, is that it should be as non-contentious as possible. There was an expression of opinion during one of the earlier debates on the Estimate that perhaps a Committee of this House might be formed for the purpose of co-operating with the Department of External Affairs in regard to matters that might and should be termed national rather than Party. If there was such a committee, clearly it would not prevent an individual Deputy from raising any question in regard to an Estimate such as this.

An Ceann Comhairle

Of course, the Deputy understands that only the items in the Supplementary Estimate should be discussed.

Captain Cowan

I am not going to deal with any matter that the Chair will find any fault with, but if there was such a committee, the justification for this increase could be discussed in the quiet atmosphere of a committee room. That, as I have said, would not prevent any Deputy from rasing any question here, although it is likely that no question would be raised in regard to the Estimate.

The sum total of expenditure, in connection with the Department of External Affairs now, is £278,000 for the year, based on the original Estimate and on the Supplementary Estimates. The question that will have to be considered is this: have we reached finality in expenditure, and can there be any cutting in that expenditure in the future? Is that sum a sum that is inadequate, or is it a sum that is excessive? Clearly, if this State is to act as if it were a major State, the total Estimate for this year would not meet the bill at all. It is very difficult to know where one can stop. What I feel in regard to external affairs is that we are not influencing world events very much.

An Ceann Comhairle

The general policy of the Department scarcely arises on this Supplementary Estimate.

Captain Cowan

Well, I am discussing it on the basis of the increased cost.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy was discussing the general influence of that Department on other countries.

Captain Cowan

Based entirely——

An Ceann Comhairle

On the Estimate for the Department which is not before the House.

Captain Cowan

——on the increased Estimate which is before the House at the moment. In so far as the increase is due to devaluation, I do not think we can do very much about it unless we were to decide to reduce our staffs abroad to counter the increase in cost due to devaluation. However, I take it the Chair would not want me to develop that point either until we reach the Estimate next year. At any rate, it is a matter to be considered, whether the impact of world events can compel us to increase our expenditure. We can follow the flood, as it were, or go with the flood and increase expenditure, or we can adopt the other line of reducing staffs abroad and keepling within the Estimate. I take it, however, that raises the general policy of the Department, and that it would not be in order to discuss it now. But, perhaps, when replying, the Minister would deal with the effect of meeting devaluation by some decrease in staff or some decrease in expenditure abroad.

Now, Official Entertainment is increased from £4,200 to £6,500. I take it that is Official Entertainment in the Twenty-Six Counties—in the Republic of Ireland—or, perhaps, in Dublin. I am not altogether clear on that point. The Minister will put me right on it. If the cost is £6,500, it is a sum of well over £100 a week on Official Entertainment here in Dublin. I wonder are we serving any useful purpose by increasing the amount to be spent on Official Entertainment? There is an increase of £2,300, almost £50 a week. I wonder is there any great national benefit from that? I see members of foreign legislatures entertained here. They are generally termed "distinguished", and I am quite sure they are distinguished. They generally tell us what fine fellows we are, and how right we are.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

They seldom tell us that.

Captain Cowan

They tell us how right we are and what fine fellows we are. I want to look at it from the point of view of the other side. If members of this House go abroad, are they taken in hands in the same way as we deal with foreign representatives coming here? Are they met at the airports and brought into the nearest city?

I am raising that point because I think we can go too far in that respect. I am all in favour of giving distinguished visitors a proper Irish reception, but I do not think it is right that our Minister for External Affairs should spend so much of his time travelling from here to Collinstown to shake hands with those visitors. I would like the Minister to consider the matter from the broad, general point of view of the national interest. Quite a number of our people are concerned about this; it is the general topic very often.

This nation has a well-established standard of courtesy and kindness to visitors of all kinds. I think it is the desire of the House that, from the official point of view, there should be courtesy and kindness extended. But let us consider whether we are doing more than that. If this increase in the cost of official entertainment is based on a wrong conception of what our duties in that regard are, it is rather a difficult subject to deal with. For that reason, I want to be as restrained and as objective as I can in dealing with it. I want the Minister to realise that what I am expressing now is, in fact, the view of a very large number of the taxpayers, who are being asked to contribute to the increased charges indicated here. I would like the Minister to point out the justification for this particular increase. I would also like him to say whether he believes this increased Estimate will meet the bill for the rest of this financial year and that there will be no further Supplementary Estimate required.

There is an item of compensation for the loss of personal property in 1943. I do not know what the difficulty was that caused six years to elapse without adjusting this matter. If those officials lost property valued at the sum of £390 that should have been settled long ago. Does the £390 represent the then value of the property destroyed, or is it the present value, having regard to the devaluation of the £? I gathered from the Minister that one of the items in the £390 was a sum of £3. I do not know if I heard that correctly.

Mr. MacBride

That is correct.

Captain Cowan

One of the officials claimed £3 for a lost article. It would look as if he lost a decent fountain pen in that air raid six years ago.

Mr. MacBride

It was a lady.

Captain Cowan

I do not think anyone will have any objection to that debt being discharged after six years Those are only what I might term random reflections on this Supplementary Estimate, but they do express a point of view with reference to the increased cost of the Department, and I think it would be well if the Minister would keep them in mind.

Mr. Lynch

If anybody examines this bill and compares it with the original Estimate introduced this year and makes a comparison with the amount paid for this service in the financial year 1948-49, he cannot be but alarmed, at least to some extent, with its growth. The total in 1948-49 amounted to £177,417, so far as can be ascertained. The present bill, which amounts to £278,000, represents almost 100 per cent. of an increase. One might also take into consideration the savings which the Minister has been able to effect. There is, for instance, £14,000 saved on the News Agency Bill and there is a saving which, possibly, he has some influence over, of £13,000 in relation to certain posts; but notwithstanding all that, the bill for this Department has reached alarming proportions.

I take it that if the News Agency Bill is not passed into law as early as the Minister expects, we will be blessed with a saving on the original £25,000. This is the second Supplementary Estimate for the Department, the first being substantial enough— £53,000. This sum amounts to £16,990.

Like Deputy Cowan, I agree that when visitors from foreign countries come here it is the duty of our citizens to act in keeping with our status as a nation, adequately to entertain these visitors. On the other hand, we ordinary legislators have a duty to the taxpayers, and particularly to the less well-off sections of our community. These less well-off sections, when they see, as Deputy Cowan has pointed out, something like £100 per week being spent on luncheons and dinners for distinguished visitors, while many of our people are badly housed, naturally look on these functions with a certain amount of disgust because they consider this expenditure unnecessary. As a Deputy, I like to hold the balance evenly between my duties as an ordinary citizen and as a Deputy who must have regard to the status of the nation. I do not want to blow hot and cold on this subject, but I believe there are certain items on which economies could have been effected within the last few months. I consider the Office of the President a very essential establishment. On occasions recently I have seen where distinguished visitors have been entertained to luncheon at Iveagh House and to dinner that same evening in Arus an Uachtaráin. I think we are being somewhat extravagant in this respect considering our resources as a nation.

The Leader of the Opposition referred to the voting of £8,000 for information material. I do not think we should be asked blindly to vote money for this purpose this year, next year and in the years to come without some opportunity being vouchsafed to us of seeing what this information material is. I take it it will consist of pamphlets boosting the country and its progress. I think, and I believe I am expressing the opinions of the majority of Deputies now, that this House should have an opportunity through the medium of the Library of seeing for what purpose we are voting this £8,000.

In explanation of the increased amount for travelling expenses the Minister said that these were expenses in connection with the Council of Europe and for the Organisation of European Economic Co-operation. As Deputy de Valera pointed out, it is, to say the least of it, bad accountancy. Not very long ago we voted a sum of £24,130 for expenses in connection with European co-operation. There were two sub-heads—one for the Council of Europe and one for the Organisation of European Economic Co-operation. In the first there was a sum of £2,250 voted for travelling expenses. In the second there was a sum of £3,000 voted. From the accountancy point of view and from the point of view of the Minister's duty to the House, I think the Minister should be able to say in what respect the money is being spent, whether it is out of Vote 65 or Vote 73. We should not be in the position of not knowing how much we are spending on the Council of Europe and how much we are spending on the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation. We should be given an opportunity of weighing that expenditure against the benefits we receive. The Minister has said that there is a difference between Ministerial expenses and staff expenses. Surely, it should not be impossible to include staff expenses with those of the Minister and others attending at meetings held by either of these organisations.

Mr. MacBride

Perhaps I could explain the position more clearly. It would be completely unsatisfactory from an accountancy point of view if the expenses of a departmental officer appeared under one of two different sub-heads. Therefore, all the departmental expenses and my travelling expenses do not appear in the special Votes taken in relation to the Council of Europe. I have to attend meetings in connection with the Council of of Europe. I have also to attend meetings in connection with the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation, but that does not form part of the Council of Europe Vote. If forms part of the headquarters travelling expenses.

Mr. Lynch

I will not press the matter any further. At first sight I thought it was one that could easily be rectified to my satisfaction. The Minister says there are administrative difficulties. Reference has been made to the many times the Minister has had occasion to go abroad. I am sure some of the increased expenditure under sub-head A (2) for travelling expenses must be devoted to the increase in the number of visits abroad. Like Deputy Cowan, I, too have heard comment on that. I have heard the Minister for External Affairs referred to as the External Minister for Affairs, not without a certain amount of justification. I take it the Minister does not go needlessly abroad to attend conferences at which his presence is not required. But here, again, I think we should examine the value we receive from the Minister's visits abroad in relation to the expenditure on those visits.

The problem of Partition was lightly touched on. I do not wish to pursue it. Deputy Lehane referred to it until the Ceann Comhairle intervened. Deputy Lehane then said that he intended to finish at that, but I took exception to his remark that at least the Department was now alive. He did not elaborate on that and has retraced his steps to some extent from his original bald statement.

Mr. C. Lehane

That, of course, is not so.

Mr. Lynch

When the Ceann Comhairle first interjected in the course of Deputy Lehane's references to the Department of External Affairs being now alive, Deputy Lehane said that he had finished with the matter. At that stage Deputy Childers rose and Deputy Lehane seized on the opportunity to retrace some of his steps. I think that is the position.

Mr. C. Lehane

That is not so, and I suggest that the Deputy should be more careful before he makes statements like that.

Mr. Lynch

I shall examine the report of the debate with Deputy Lehane, and if he is right and I am wrong I shall apologise to him; but I do not think the necessity for an apology will arise.

Mr. C. Lehane

I will hold the Deputy to that.

Mr. Lynch

I think Deputies ought to express some concern at the increase in this particular Vote. We are now proposing to spend over £250,000 on a Department that in 1946-47 only cost us £118,000. I certainly agree that, because of devaluation and because of our participation in certain European organisations, an increased amount of money is necessary. From the point of view of lavish entertainment at home we are spending far more than is really necessary.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá ar an Meastachán Breise seo. Maidir leis an tarna cuid de, na Taidhleoirí atá i dtíortha i gcéin, ní féidir le duine clamhsán a dhéanamh mar gheall orthu mar tuigtear dom go bhfuil an chuid sin den Mheastachán Breise riachtanach chun airgead a dhéanamh suas de bharr an di-luachála.

Maidir leis an chéad chuid den Mheastachán Breise seo, ní fhéadfadh duine a bheith ró-shásta ar fad go bhfuil géar-ghá leis an airgead go léir atá curtha ar leataoibh le haghaidh taistil agus eolais. Fágaimís fo-mhír a 5 ar leataoibh. Is dócha go bhfuil mórán de'n cheart ins an méid adúirt an Teachta Ó Cabhain agus an Teachta Seán Ó Loinsigh faoin bhfomhír sin.

Si seo an tarna Mheastachán Breise a chonnacamar ón Roinn seo i rith na bliana. An bhfuil aon deimhniú againn anois ná beidh Meastachán Breise eile le breithniú ag an Dáil roimh dheire na Bliana Airgeadais seo. Tá tuairmí faoi leith agam féin mar gheall ar an taisteal sin go léir atá ar súil ag an Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha agus Airí eile nach é. Bhféidir nach n-aontódh cuid de mo cháirde féin leis na tuairmí atá agam. Bíodh sin mar atá, tá sé de thuairim agam gur airgead amu cuid mhaith den taisteal sin agus go bhfuil an íomad ar fad de ar siúl. Sé mo thuairim féin go bhfuil a lán cumann gluaiseachtaí ag obair ar an MórRoinn ná fuil mhaitheas ná tairbhe ar bith le baint astu. Má tá aon tairbhe nó maitheas le baint astu, ní fhacamarne aon rian de fós. Dá bhrí sin, ba chóir don Aire agus don Rialtas na rudaí sin go léir a mhion-scrúdú agus gan airgead na ndaoine agus na tíre seo a chur amú. Má iarrtar airgead, a chreidimídne, a raghadh chun leasa agus tairbhe na tíre agus a chuideodh linn an cuspóir deireannach atá róinn a thabhairt chun críche, creidim ná beadh an Dáil doicheallach i dtaobh é thabhairt d'Aire ar bith go mbeadh gá aige leis.

Maidir leis an chéad chuid den Mheastachán Breise seo, sé mo thuairim go bhfuilimídne ag dul ró-fhada agus go bhfuil an tAire seo agus an Roinn Gnóthaí Eachtracha ag dul ró fhada ar fad. Ba chóir stop a chur anois leis an sodar agus machtnamh a dhéanamh ar ci bhfuilimídne ag dul. Do theasbáin an Teachta Seán Ó Loingsigh go bhfuil gá le breis agus £100,000 a chaitheamh ag an Roinn seo thar mar a bhí sa bliain 1946.

Tugadh le tuisgint dúinn, nuair a thainig an Rialtas seo i réim, ag an Aire Airgeadais sílim, go raibh sé ag brath ar airgead a shábháil ar an Roinn seo. Ach ní hé sin an rud a thuit amach. Tuigim go maith an fáth atá le cuid mhaith den bhreis atá ag teastáil le haghaidh na Roinne. Nuair a bhí an Rialtas eile ann, ní raibh aon Aire speisialta i gceannas an Roinn Ghnóthaí Eachtracha. Bhí an Taoiseach a bhí an uair sin ann— an Teachta Éamonn de Valera—agus bhí seisean i gceannas na Roinne sin. Ní mar sin atá an scéal faoi láthair.

Níl mé sásta, ar chor ar bith, go bhfuil gá leis an mbreis mhór seo go léir. Creidim go bhfuil sé in am dúinn an scéal a scrúdú go mion agus go géar agus creidim go mba chóir don Aire agus don Rialtas an rud céanna a dhéanamh agus stop a chur anois le tuille airgid a bheith á chaitheamh ag an Roinn Ghnóthaí Eachtracha.

Tá súil agam ná beidh Meastachán Breise eile ón Roinn seo le plé ag an Dáil roimh dheire na Bliana Airgeadais seo.

Mr. MacBride

I think I should, at the outset, repeat what I said in introducing the Supplementary Estimate. The total amount of the Supplementary Estimate introduced is less than the added burden put on to the expenditure of the Department by reason of devaluation. The amount of the Supplementary Estimate is £16,900. The total estimated amount of the additional cost cast upon the Department in this financial year by devaluation is £25,000 or, in other words, approximately £8,000 more than the amount of this total Estimate. If it were not for certain savings that have been made in the Department we would now have to come to the House and ask for a Supplementary Estimate of £25,000. I want to make that clear because members of the House have said: "Oh, of course, we are not questioning anything due to devaluation. We are referring the whole time to the increased expenditure of the Department." In point of fact, I am sorry to say the Department has not spent its full Estimate in the current year and the only reason the Department has to come before the House with a Supplementary Estimate is because of devaluation.

Mr. Lemass

The saving is on the news agency.

Mr. MacBride

The saving is on the news agency.

Mr. Lemass

A voluntary saving?

Mr. MacBride

Not exactly voluntary but, by reason of the fact that the Opposition successfully delayed the passing of the News Agency Act, I did take action to put our point of view to the countries as best I could within the framework of the Department. That accounts, in part at least, for part of this Supplementary Estimate. I have been spending £300 a week on publicity in Washington since the British Government decided to introduce the Ireland Bill in their Parliament—and I make no apology for doing so. I wish I could spend ten times that amount in every capital in the world.

Mr. Lemass

Will the Minister indicate the type of publicity?

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

The Irish Press.

Mr. MacBride

A weekly bulletin is issued. It has a circulation in the neighbourhood of 5,000 copies. Special Press releases are issued.

The staff of the Legation in Washington consisted of two first secretaries and a third secretary. The staff now consists of two counsellors, a first secretary, a second secretary, two third secretaries, a higher executive officer and a minor staff officer. I make no apology for that work. I believe one of the main and primary functions of this Department is to try and secure the reunification of our country and that one of the best means of doing it is to put our case forward in the world wherever we have an opportunity of doing so.

Captain Cowan

Does the Minister believe that that will achieve anything?

Mr. MacBride

The Minister believes that we will achieve a lot more that way than we would achieve by doing nothing.

Mr. C. Lehane

Or by stunting.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Stunting is right.

Mr. MacBride

There is another aspect which, I think, Deputies have not taken into account, and that is that a large proportion of the economic work has been falling on the Department of External Affairs by reason of its relationship with the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation and with the Economic Co-operation Administration. That has entailed, as I explained to the House before, the creation of an economic division and the carrying out of a vast amount of economic work both in Paris and in Washington. Members of the House do not appreciate that, in relation to all orders for goods coming from America, under the European Recovery Programme, the necessary organisation has to be carried out through the Department of External Affairs. That has increased the work of the Department tremendously. Again, it is work in respect of which I make no apology. It is work that is essential to the economic life of the country. If that work were not being done, we would not be able to import things from America. I am satisfied that we are getting, and will get, large dividends far in excess of the expenditure on the whole of this Department by reason of that work.

I am not going to say, or to take any credit for the fact that there is far more activity in the Department now. The ending of the war made that inevitable. The ending of the war and the development of the present position were bound to increase the activity of the Department. For instance, inevitably, this country will have to be represented in Germany. I think, too, that it will be necessary to have a number of commercial attachés at various places in America and other countries in order to enable us to develop and increase our trade with these countries.

Captain Cowan

For what purpose, would the Minister say, ought we be represented in Germany at present?

Mr. MacBride

In order to develop our trade because one of the great strangle-holds on this country was that we have been dependent in the past on one country. That is a position which I wish to see ended.

Captain Cowan

Would the Minister say——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This cannot develop into a cross-examination.

Captain Cowan

It is a reasonable question.

Mr. MacBride

One of the most vital economic aims of the country should be to develop a trade with other countries so as not to be economically dependent on just one market for the supply of goods we need or one customer for the goods we have to sell.

Captain Cowan

What would we sell to Germany?

Mr. MacBride

We have already sent 300,000 dollars worth of cattle to Germany.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Cowan will have to restrain himself.

Mr. MacBride

Our exports of industrial goods to the Continent have doubled.

Captain Cowan

Wait a few years and Germany will be exporting you cattle.

Mr. MacBride

The trouble is that Deputy Cowan wants to be a dictator. If he succeeds in getting a sufficient number of people to follow him he can be a dictator, but meanwhile he will have to let somebody else carry on.

Captain Cowan

I want to know what the policy is.

Mr. MacBride

Our policy is to develop our trade with every other country in the world.

Captain Cowan

To send cattle to Germany.

Mr. MacBride

Yes, to send cattle to Germany and get paid in dollars for them.

Mr. Lemass

We did that in 1933.

Mr. C. Lehane

We were not here then.

Mr. Lemass

We had a lot of opposition here.

Mr. MacBride

Deputy de Valera has underlined the expenditure on entertainment. He said that he realised the necessity for it and, in effect, he approved of it. Deputy Lynch, on the other hand, seemed to criticise it. Deputy Cowan criticised not so much the entertainment as the fact that I went to meet people whom I thought I should meet at Collinstown. I can assure Deputy Cowan that that will not cost the State one 1/2d. It may cost me a good deal of personal inconvenience in obliging me to get up much earlier in the morning but it does not cost the State anything. The Deputy may rest assured that I shall continue to meet whomsoever I think I should meet, either because they are friends of mine or friends of this country abroad. There is one thing that I should correct—the statement which I made when I interrupted Deputy Lynch on the question of travelling expenses in relation to the Council of Europe and the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation. The position is not quite as clear as I thought it was. I think some of the travelling expenses have been charged on the departmental travelling expenses while others have been charged on the separate Vote.

Mr. Lemass

These were substantial expenses—£3,500.

Mr. MacBride

That is on the Council of Europe?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. MacBride

There are two bodies. First of all, there are the delegates to the Assembly. There is the Assembly and the Committee of Ministers.

Mr. Lemass

Travelling expenses for the Minister to the committees.

Mr. MacBride

I gather that some of the expenses have been charged to that Vote and some charged departmentally. I do not think it is a good practice; they should be all in one. The position is not quite clear but I would like to look it up. I should like to see that particular piece of accountancy clarified.

Mr. de Valera

The Organisation for European Economic Co-operation is the same. There is a special Vote for travelling expenses.

Mr. MacBride

I understand there are certain travelling expenses in relation to the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation which do not arise in relation to the council or committees. These are occasioned by officials going backwards and forwards to clear up various points. It is a matter which can be examined and gone into again.

I should like to point out once more that the expenditure on this Department is the lowest of any other Department of External Affairs or Foreign Affairs in proportion to our Budget. I have the figures here. I think the expenditure is .38 per cent. of our Budget. In other countries of comparable size and comparable importance the figures were, for instance: Norway, .59; Sweden, .58; Denmark, 1.18; Switzerland, 2.63, and so on. I think these are not new figures. I think they are old figures which I had at the time of the introduction of the last Budget, and I should imagine that, as a result of devaluation, they have gone up very considerably. Again, it is very hard to compare these things, but the total cost, including the Supplementary Estimate, of the whole Department and every other form of expenditure we have to meet, is less than the cost of one big embassy kept by one of the major countries. The cost of the British Mission in Cairo amounts to £328,000, and the cost of the British Missions in the United States of America amounts to £925,000. I merely mention that so as to get the general perspective.

There is one thing which I would like to emphasise and ask the House to bear in mind: there is no use in having a Department of this kind or in having a post unless it is adequately manned and people are put in a position to do their work. That is what we have been trying to do. I am anxious to have the co-operation of the House in a matter of this kind, and on every occasion on which I introduce an Estimate for this Department I shall gladly give any information the Leader of the Opposition may require. I would welcome the formation of a foreign affairs committee on a nonParty basis so that they might have more information and take more interest in the working of the Department.

I think I can claim that the increased activity of the Department following the war is a good investment for the country—a good investment from the political point of view as regards Partition, from the trade point of view as regards our trade, from the tourist point of view and also, I hope, from a financial point of view.

Captain Cowan

Might I ask the Minister, in regard to the suggestion of opening up trade in cattle with Germany, if, in considering that, he has taken into account the present agreement between this country and Britain in regard to cattle?

Mr. Lemass

That is a bit of a snag.

Mr. MacBride

We are not discussing the trade agreement with Germany. This is a Supplementary Estimate. The Deputy may rest assured that everything is taken into account at all times.

Mr. de Valera

What was the reason for the delay in paying compensation? Was there any special reason?

Mr. MacBride

I gather that it was in part the usual reason in such cases. The watchdog of the public purse hoped that it might be possible to obtain compensation from some other source for the damage. As the House knows, the watchdog of the public purse is slow in such cases.

Mr. de Valera

It was not fair to leave the official at the loss for all this time.

Mr. MacBride

I think we should have been more generous.

Question put and declared carried.

Estimates reported and agreed to.