Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 7 Mar 1950

Vol. 119 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 33—Garda Síochána.

Minister for Justice (General MacEoin)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £303,670 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1950, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Garda Síochána (No. 7 of 1925, No. 10 of 1926, No. 5 of 1937, No. 19 of 1941, Nos. 1 and 17 of 1945) and for payments of compensation and other expenses arising out of service in the Local Security Force (No. 19 of 1946 and No. 15 of 1949).

This is only for the purpose of paying allowance to the Guards for rents and increases.

Mr. McQuillan

Might I ask the Minister a question in connection with clothing and equipment? A number of members of the Dublin Metropolitan Garda have complained that they are very dissatisfied with the new dress uniform, and have asked me to raise the question with the Minister. I am informed that the members of the force were to be asked their opinion about it, and quite a considerable volume of opinion among the men was against this type of uniform. We all have our own views upon it and to my mind, at any rate, it is an extraordinary looking affair. On behalf of those individuals, and there is a considerable number of them, I would ask the Minister whether he intends going ahead with this new issue of uniforms. They have wonderful buttons down the back and I understand there are no suitable pockets, while the length of the tunic itself is not a bit nice looking. I would ask the Minister whether or not any attention was given to the complaints of the Dublin Metropolitan Garda, and if there is a considerable number of men in the force who are dissatisfied with it?

Mr. G. Boland

I would like to ask if the Minister is satisfied with the number of Gardaí in the city. I know that not so long ago, a couple of years before I left office, I had a deputation from Dublin Corporation, which included members of the House, and they pointed out that Dublin City was completely under-policed. At the time I could not do very much but I know that a certain percentage of recruits were allocated to the city. Anybody who looks around the city can see quite plainly, whatever may be said about other parts of the country, that the city is not over-policed and the general opinion is that it is under-policed. There was in my time, and I am sure there is in the Minister's time, dissatisfaction among the Gardaí about the onerous work they have to do due to the under-policing of the city. It could not have improved very much since my time as there has been no recruiting since then and only a percentage of the recruits who came in in my time were allocated to Dublin. Has the Minister anything to say on that matter?

Captain Cowan

I think that Deputy Boland, in referring to the question of Dublin being under-policed at the moment is probably under a slight misapprehension. There are areas, undoubtedly, where for the convenience of the public there ought to be a Garda station and that situation has lasted a very long time. One of the areas I have in mind is the East Wall and North Wall area, in my own constituency, which is a very large self-contained unit. For the convenience of the public in that area a station is necessary. While that is so—and that, I think, could be arranged even within the strength of the Gardaí at the moment—there has been in the past couple of years a great improvement in the efficiency of the Garda Síochána in Dublin due to new methods, particularly the wireless patrol cars. I think the feeling of the citizens of Dublin is that that efficiency leaves the city, from the point of view of policing, better than ever it was. That is just a normal natural development in the use of technical and scientific aids in the detection of crime and I think it is no harm to avail of the opportunity of this Vote to mention that.

There is undoubtedly in this city a lessening of crime and that lessening of crime may be due to many things. The general public feel that, to some extent, it is contributed to by the efficiency of the Dublin Gardaí as a whole.

Deputy McQuillan has referred to uniforms. This matter has already been mentioned in the House from another angle. I would repeat something that has been asked before, and that is that the Dublin Gardaí be provided with a more suitable type of uniform for summer wear. The uniform that they are wearing is a traditional one—the helmet and all that. It is a traditional form of uniform, hardly suitable to modern ideas. I would suggest to the Minister that he ought to take the earliest opportunity of providing the very fine force of Gardaí that we have in Dublin City with a uniform that will enable them to be smart and at the same time to be comfortably attired during the warm spells, even if they are short spells, during the year.

Another matter that, I think, might be mentioned is the question of more suitable barrack accommodation.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no money in this for barrack accommodation. There is a section in it actually for salaries, allowances and clothing, and no more.

Captain Cowan

Then I will have to leave the question of barracks. On the sub-head which deals with salaries, I possibly could make this suggestion to the Minister, that there are within the force, not only in Dublin, but all over the country, some excellent Gardaí who are within a few years of retiring. Those men have contributed more than one can understand to the building up and development of the force over the years. I think it would be a gracious thing, and a proper thing if the Minister were to arrange, by Order or otherwise, that there would be a large number of promotions to the rank of sergeant from the rank of Garda within the force.

An Ceann Comhairle

Has the Minister any function in that?

General MacEoin

None whatever.

Captain Cowan

I think he has.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister says he has none, and I accept the Minister's word. I think I must—not doubting the Deputy's.

Captain Cowan

I would put it this way, that we make provision for salaries, and the regulations that govern promotions are regulations in which the Minister has a very large say. While he may not control the machinery of promotion, he has the power to make the machine that makes the promotions.

An Ceann Comhairle

I understood that the Commissioner had absolute power in that.

Captain Cowan

No, Sir. With all respect, it is my submission that while the regulations are there saying that promotions can take effect in particular ways, the Commissioner is bound to operate them in regard to the percentage of sergeants that there may be to Guards. I say that the Minister has a big responsibility, and that he may alter regulations to provide for an increased number of promotions. However, I am only availing of this opportunity to make the suggestion to the Minister that he might consider this matter of those Gardaí who have given very long service, almost 30 years, in the rank of Garda, to the nation.

On many occasions in the past the Gardaí have suffered from reductions in pay. There have been clamours from time to time for a reduction in the Garda Síochána Vote. Now, there is no tendency, as far as I can see in any part of the House, to demand any reduction in the amount that should be paid in salaries to the Garda Síochána. I would ask the Minister to consider that aspect of it so that these men, many of them right through the country, might in the last few years of their service receive the promotion which would be indicative of the thanks of the general public for service which they have very well given over a very long period.

Mr. MacEntee

This Supplementary Estimate has to be looked at from two points of view. The proposal is to saddle the taxpayer with an additional burden of £323,000 and, naturally, we who represent the taxpayer, will have to look at it from this point of view and examine it, having regard to the fact that it is only one of a number of Supplementary Estimates not budgeted last May but amounting in all to £1,250,000 roughly which we are being asked to pass to-night. We must also, of course, look at it from the point of view of the members of the Garda Síochána; but, from whatever point of view we look at it, we must be astonished that the Minister for Justice should have the hardihood to introduce it into this House, because three years ago, about this time in the year 1947, the Minister was then on this side of the House and was bewailing the enormous burden which the taxpayers of this country were carrying. Since 1948 the amount extorted from the taxpayers of this country has increased by almost 15 per cent., and the Minister brings in a Bill to-night to increase it by a further £323,000. I think that the taxpayers have a right to hear from the Minister his justification for piling taxation higher and for extracting more money from them.

General MacEoin

I think so.

Mr. MacEntee

On the other hand, I think the Gardaí have an equal cause of complaint, because the Minister has not kept his pledge to the members of the Garda Síochána any more than he has kept his pledge to the taxpayer. Three years ago he promised to reduce taxation and to increase the pay of the Garda substantially. We were told by the present Minister for Finance that, according to his calculation, since the cose-of-living index figure had gone up from 175 in September, 1939, to 310 in September, 1947, the pay of the Garda Síochána ought to be increased proportionately, that it ought almost to have been doubled. That, of course, was when the Minister was in Opposition. I contend that the revision of the Garda pay cannot be regarded as satisfactory. I am basing that case upon the argument used by the present Minister for Justice when sitting on the Opposition Benches. At that time he was telling the Garda that their pay ought to be almost doubled and he certainly led them to believe that, if he became Minister for Justice, he would take steps to see that that was done.

General MacEoin

When?

Mr. MacEntee

I am not going to remind the Garda of their sorry experience in this matter, of the long, protracted negotiations they had before they were able to wring from the Minister the £323,000 which they are getting now. I am not going to remind them that they asked that this increase should be ante-dated and made payable from the date on which the Government took office. Of course we know they are not going to get that. The Minister is full of soft words and he has honeyed lips. He is not a gentleman who is going to speak plainly and bluntly to any deputation which approaches him. When Deputy Byrne raises this matter in the House, the Minister is full of plamás, he is going to do the best he can to see that they get justice, that his pledges to the Garda will be fulfilled or he will know the reason why. But, when it comes down to brass tacks, there is no person more subservient to the Minister for Finance than the Minister for Justice and he fobs the Garda off with this £323,000 instead of doubling their pay and allowances as he promised to do in 1947. Of course, we do not expect anything more from the Minister in his present company. He is just one of a collection of individuals who made some sort of promise to the taxpayers.

An Ceann Comhairle

The general policy of the Government does not arise on a Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. MacEntee

The conduct of the Minister does. I am trying to find extenuating circumstances for him.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is going outside the Supplementary Estimate. There are four items in it.

Mr. MacEntee

I heard a Deputy talk about regulations. There is nothing here about making regulations dealing with promotion. I heard a Deputy talking about barracks and other Deputies talking about matters which were much less relevant to this Supplementary Estimate than the matter I am speaking of.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy cannot refrain from indirectly attacking the Chair, he will have to sit down.

Mr. MacEntee

I certainly will do that, but I am rather surprised——

An Ceann Comhairle

It is obvious——

Mr. MacEntee

I am attacking the Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not. He is attacking the Chair.

Mr. MacEntee

I am attacking the Minister's public conduct.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is the judge of what the Deputy is entitled to raise.

General MacEoin

I raised the point that the Chair ruled out certain matters and the Deputy charged the Chair with letting some other Deputy say so-and-so.

Mr. MacEntee

Could I discuss the question of the regulations governing promotion?

General MacEoin

Yes, if you like.

Mr. MacEntee

I am asking the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not know what the Deputy wants.

Mr. MacEntee

Am I entitled to advocate that in order that the Garda may get justice, all the Garda who were deceived, who were duped by the promises made in 1947 by Deputy MacEoin, as he then was, they should now be promoted to the rank of sergeant, that the regulations should be amended accordingly in order that justice may be done to them? The whole body of the Garda are entitled to get justice and consideration, just as the same as the few who happen to be Deputy Cowan's friends. They are all entitled to consideration and fair play. They are not getting fair play either in relation to salaries or in relation to a great many other matters. There are Garda who are completely disgusted with the way justice is being administered in this country.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is outside the Vote.

Mr. MacEntee

Except this, that it is doubtful whether we are justified in mulcting the taxpayer in order to maintain a police force when the police force are not being permitted to operate. As I know that that would raise general policy, I am giving fair warning that I propose to raise it on the general Vote.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is the proper time.

General MacEoin

This is a Supplementary Estimate in connection with those who are serving in the Garda Síochána at the moment. There was a demand that the pay and allowances should be increased and this is the best we can do at the moment.

Mr. G. Boland

Will the Minister agree that I brought in an Estimate for £360,000 and that I was told by the present Minister for Finance that, if it were four times as much, it would not be too much?

General MacEoin

All I am saying is that this is the best we can do at this particular stage.

Mr. G. Boland

That was the best I could do at that time.

General MacEoin

Deputy MacEntee says that this Parliament should not vote this sum. He has made the case that this Parliament should not pass it, and on what grounds? He made a case that would not be made by any member of any Parliament in the world and I was surprised because Deputy MacEntee is decent in many ways. The charge is that we have not sufficient Gárdaí in the City of Dublin. We have more Gardaí in the City of Dublin than we ever had in the history of this country. I am not satisfied that that is necessary. Might I avail of the opportunity to say that I have a commission set up to inquire into the whole question of the policing of the country? I think that we can do it at much less than the present cost. It may be that we shall have to take technical advice and make use of all the modern equipment that we should have.

Deputy MacEntee and another Deputy raised a point about uniforms. The Garda Síochána have what is called the Representative Body for 16 years which makes representations to the Minister for Justice and that is the means by which they approach the Minister. They come in and they make their case. I am quite satisfied they make it bona fide. I listen to them and I report to the Government. In this particular matter the Government has directed me to take the line that the whole question of the policing of the State must be examined.

The sum asked for here is all that is required to pay the Garda in this particular year. I ask the House to vote that sum. If the House does so without any comment, I can assure the House it is doing a good day's work. The Gardaí have done their work very well. I have great faith in them. Theirs is a difficult task and, difficult as their task is, they are open to attack right, left and centre. Yet, they do their duty faithfully and well in the interests of the nation.

Supplementary Estimate agreed to.