Supplementary Estimate, 1949-50. - Vote 46—Primary Education. – Dáil Éireann (13th Dáil) – Tuesday, 7 Mar 1950

Minister for Education (General Mulcahy)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £81,500 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1950, for Primary Education, including National School Teachers' Superannuation and a Grant-in-Aid, etc.

This Supplementary Vote is required to meet the costs in increased pensions of retired national teachers which were approved by the Dáil in the national teacher amendment scheme, 1948, and the Pensions (Increase) Bill, 1949. Deputies will recall that increased scales came into operation on the 31st October, 1946, and that, immediately following that, teachers who went out on pension were having their pension based on the average of the last three years and were awarded pensions based in part on the new scales and in part on the old scales. It was then decided, on the superannuation scheme of 1948, that the teachers pensioned after the 31st October would be pensioned with their pensions based notionally on the new scales running for three years. Then, under the Pensions (Increase) Bill that has just passed through the House, pensions that were awarded before 31st October, 1946, were increased by certain percentages. The result is that provision has to be made for an additional £108,000 in respect of these pensions increases by reason of the Pensions (Increase) Bill and provision has to be made for £17,000 for pensions that were increased under the 1948 scheme. The total amount that is involved is £125,000. The reason why the Estimate is for only £81,000 is that there are savings in other directions.

Mr. MacEntee

I hold no brief for national teachers but I think that there is, in the proposals which the Minister has submitted to the House, a certain injustice. It will be recalled that when the former Government made proposals for increasing the teachers' salaries in the year 1946, and upon which these pensions are, of course, based, it was quite clearly indicated by the then Government that the scales would be revised with effect as from September, 1949—at least, the whole matter would be reviewed and the scales revised in the light of the then existing circumstances as from September, 1949. That was, whether we like it or not, I think, a clear commitment from the then Government to the teachers. That Government was not permitted to remain in office to fulfil that commitment. It was, however, succeeded by the members of other Parties who had clearly indicated to the teachers——

General Mulcahy

What has this to do with the subject of the Estimate?

Mr. MacEntee

I shall show the Minister. The Fianna Fáil Government was not permitted to remain in office to fulfil that commitment. It was, however, succeeded by the members of other Parties who had clearly indicated to the teachers that, in their view, the proposals of the then Government were not sufficient. That constituted, I think, a pledge on their part.

General Mulcahy

On a point of order, I submit the Estimate before the House is for superannuation.

Mr. MacEntee

Precisely, superannuation based on a scale of salaries ruling at a particular date.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy MacEntee does not wish to stray outside the Estimate?

Mr. MacEntee

I do not.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot discuss scales of salaries.

Mr. MacEntee

Except in so far as——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy MacEntee does not wish to interrupt the Chair? I cannot permit Deputy MacEntee to discuss scales of salaries on this Estimate. What he can discuss on the Estimate is the superannuation scheme. The Estimate provides money for superannuation.

Mr. MacEntee

I am contending that these superannuation proposals are unfair and unjust to the teachers. I am saying that they are a violation of pledges given by the previous Government——

General Mulcahy

On a point of order, the Estimate as is shown by the details, is for the specific purpose of providing moneys for payment to the fund established under paragraph 8 of the National School Teachers' Superannuation Scheme, 1934, and for the payment of pensions under the National School Teachers' (Ireland) Act, 1879, as amended by the Act that has been just passed.

Mr. MacEntee

If the basis of the superannuation were as just as we believe it should be, then these additional sums would be paid. The Minister is asking the House to authorise this payment to the fund because if he does not make this payment, there will be a deficiency in the pensions fund and the pensions will not be paid. If the basis of these payments were more generous and if the superannuation were payable from an earlier date, this sum would be larger. My contention is that the sum should be larger. If the Minister is going to fulfil the promise which he gave when in opposition, the new scale should be enforced since September, 1949, and the pensions should be payable on the basis of the scales in force in 1949. There are quite a number of teachers who retired in September, 1949, before the new scales came into force. They are getting, I contend, smaller pensions than they would be entitled to if the present Government had honoured the pledge which they gave when in opposition. I think it most unfair that teachers who did not go out on strike, city teachers or teachers throughout the country who remained at their posts and did their duty to the children of the nation, should be victimised by a Government which pretends to be concerned for the rights of the teachers. That is what this Supplementary Estimate amounts to. You are not doing justice to the teachers because you are not implementing——

General Mulcahy

I want finally to raise the point that Deputy MacEntee is entirely out of order.

Mr. MacEntee

I do not know, Sir. I happened, if I may say so, to be the Minister who piloted the 1934 Act through this House, which was responsible for this scheme. Does the Minister suggest that I do not know what I am talking about?

General Mulcahy

You have not the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

Mr. MacEntee

I have to smile at the Minister and at his obvious discomfort. It is quite clear that he does not want the grievances of the teachers to be ventilated. It was all very well when he was on this side of the House. Then the teachers were the most downtrodden and depressed body in Ireland. I did not believe they were. I do not believe they are now, but I do know this, that a number of teachers who served until they reached the retiring age and who retired after the date on which they believed the new scale should come into force, have been very badly hit.

I do not know whether it was done deliberately or not but I do think that they have a distinct grievance in that they should be compelled to retire and have their pensions based on the old scales instead of the scales which the Minister should have brought into force much earlier than he did. If these scales were brought into force earlier, these teachers would be retiring on the pensions to which they would have been entitled when they accepted the pledge of the Government in 1946 that the scales would be introduced in September, 1949. I am saying the Minister ought to face up to that fact. It is quite possible for him to bring in another Supplementary Estimate to permit those teachers who retired between September, 1949, and the 1st January, 1950——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is obviously talking against time. Deputy MacEntee has not said a word about the Estimate. If he does not come to the Estimate, he must sit down.

Mr. MacEntee

If you are going to take up that attitude, I am going to sit down and what is more, I am leaving the House because the Chair is a partisan Chair.

Mr. Flanagan

I think Deputy MacEntee should be called upon to apologise for that statement and he should not be allowed to take part in the proceedings of the House until he does so.

Captain Cowan

On a point of order, before the Minister concludes——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot discuss this matter now as the transgressor is not in the House. He left the House and this has to be raised through the Committee.

Captain Cowan

Is this the decision, that a Deputy may get up, deliberately insult the Chair and walk or run out of the House——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Committee on Procedure and Privileges will deal with that matter. The only penalty open to the Chair was to ask the offending Deputy to leave the House. The transgressor has left the House and the Chair has no power over him.

Captain Cowan

Is there power to refer the matter to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a matter that can be looked into.

Mr. Sweetman

Should it not be mentioned that the previous occupant of the Chair also found it necessary to reprove the Deputy?

General Mulcahy

As I indicated when moving the Estimate——

Mr. Briscoe

I should like to say before the Minister concludes that I find myself in a rather awkward position. I listened very carefully to the introduction of this Supplementary Estimate by the Minister. If he cares again to read his brief, as he read it to the House, he will find that he did make some reference to certain recent dates with regard to the need for the Supplementary Estimate. Later on in the debate he brought us back to the year 1814.

Mr. Sweetman

That was before the Battle of Waterloo. He mentioned 1874.

Mr. Briscoe

1814. What I want to find out from the Chair is this. Surely the position is that this Supplementary Estimate arises from the fact that a new arrangement has been made whereunder there is an additional sum payable to retired teachers who retired at a certain recent date? The Deputy who has just spoken, Deputy MacEntee, was referring to the fact, first of all, that if this arrangement had been made earlier, certain teachers would have come off somewhat better. He was trying to make the point that the position, while slightly improved, is not yet a solution of the problem from the Minister's point of view.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Tuesday, 7 Mar 1950

Supplementary Estimate, 1949-50. - Vote 46—Primary Education.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 7 Mar 1950