Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Apr 1950

Vol. 120 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 57—Army Pensions.

Minister for Defence (Dr. O'Higgins)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £579,550 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st day of March, 1951, for Wound and Disability Pensions, Further Pensions and Married Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 26 of 1923, No. 12 of 1927, No. 24 of 1932, No. 15 of 1937, No. 2 of 1941, No. 14 of 1943, No. 3 of 1946, and Nos. 19 and 28 of 1949); Military Service Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 48 of 1924, No. 26 of 1932, No. 43 of 1934, No. 33 of 1938, No. 5 of 1944, Nos. 11 and 34 of 1945, and Nos. 7 and 29 of 1949); Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 37 of 1936, and No. 9 of 1948); Payments in respect of Compensation for Members of the Local Defence Force (No. 19 of 1946 and No. 15 of 1949); and for sundry Contributions and Expenses in respect thereof, etc.

The total of £869,320 for the Army Pensions Vote is roughly made up as follows:—Cost of pensions, allowances and gratuities, £848,336; cost of administration, £8,820; cost of incidentals, £12,164; total, £869,320.

The pensions, allowances and gratuities comprise 18,377 awards already made during the past 27 years, amounting to £823,477 and about 1,486 new awards which it is expected will be made before 31st March, 1951, and which are estimated to cost about £64,976. Twelve months hence, therefore, there is expected to be about 19,863 awards at a gross cost of £888,453. If, however, allowances be made for the cessation of certain pensions through death, etc. at £10,696 and for abatements at £29,421, the net cost will be £848,336. Included in this amount is a sum of £9,574 for gratuities and £3,360 for arrears, so that the recurring charge on the Exchequer will be, approximately, £835,402 a year.

Incidental expenses at £8,820 include £500 for surgical and medical appliances, £1,250 for the treatment in St. Bricin's hospital of temporary pensioners; £5,000 for the expenses of applicants for pensions and special allowances attending before the Army Pensions Board, and the expenses of witnesses called before the Referee in connection with military service pensions, and £2,070 for various odds and ends but especially for the fees of local pensions medical officers to expedite the work of determining claims for pensions and allowances.

Administration expenses at £12,164 refer exclusively to the salaries and allowances of the two statutory bodies, the Army Pensions Board for the Army Pensions Acts and the Referee and advisory committee, for the Military Service Pensions Acts. As regards the latter it will take some time to sift the chaff from the grain, and to determine what petitions merit a hearing. The estimate, however, for military service pensions provides for about 400 awards during the year. That figure does not in any way limit the Referee in his determinations. It is simply a reasonable guess by the departmental officials on the scanty evidence available to them at the present moment.

The Army Pensions Board dealt with 938 claims during the 12 months ended 28th February, 1950. That figure includes 35 appeals and 277 revisions. Of the claims examined, 322 failed and 616 succeeded, but, as regards special allowances, there were 261 favourable and 245 unfavourable reports.

Finally, though there is an increase of £20,750 over the corresponding Estimate last year, it must be remembered that pensions were increased during the past year and the total of the increase was about £34,500 a year.

Mr. Traynor

There are just a few queries I should like to put to the Minister for the purpose of securing some information. There is nothing special I want to say in respect to the Estimate proper but I should like the Minister to tell us if the Referee and his Advisory Board are meeting at present for the purpose of hearing claims. There seems to be a doubt as to whether they are or not. Several queries in that respect have been put to me. It appears that cases are not being called and the individuals concerned are wondering if the Referee and the Advisory Board are, in fact, meeting and adjudicating on the cases in question.

There is another point about which I have been asked to secure information, namely, in respect of a number of individuals who would be entitled to apply for pensions and who were resident in the U.S.A. For one reason or another—I do not know that they had any particular reason—they do not appear to have ever applied for pensions. Now they have apparently wakened up and they are anxious to be permitted to apply. Some have signified their intention to apply and have stated that there are other individuals in the U.S.A. who would be entitled, in their opinion, to secure pensions. They were anxious to know if there was any means by which these people could be notified. I do not know if the Department take any special measures beyond the measures which they take to advise applicants at home both by advertisement and by statements over the radio. I do not know if individuals of this type in the U.S.A. can be contacted.

The Minister will remember that I raised the question of special allowance applicants on quite a number of occasions. These people are granted this special allowance by reason of the fact that they are incapacitated. They are incapable of earning a livelihood. Their incapcity may be due to age, to mental deficiency or to the fact that they are unable to work for some other reason. I do not want to reiterate what I said on past occasions as to the difficulty confronting these individuals when the means test is applied to them. In one particular case, a certain individual was receiving 30/- per week—£78 per year—and the fact that his sister went out working and endeavoured to contribute to his support was taken as means and the unfortunate individual, who was bedridden, had the sum reduced to 7/-. I said on a former occasion that when we were instituting this special allowance for individuals of that type, we never visualised that the fact that a sister or brother or some other relative helped to keep that individual, would be taken into consideration in applying the means test to that particular type of case and that something like 20/- or 25/- would be deducted from his allowance. The Minister will remember that he undertook more than a year ago, when the question was first raised, to have the matter examined, and on a later occasion he informed me that it was being examined. I again ask the Minister to look into the matter to see if anything can be done. I raised that matter before I went out of office and I believe the then Government would have given sympathetic consideration to the case I was making. Perhaps, if that matter was looked up, it might help the present Minister to do what I was hoping to do.

There is then the question of the forfeiture of pensions. The Minister brought in a Bill which gave him power to re-examine these cases. I think, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, pensions that had been forfeited for some very simple reasons could be restored either in whole or in part. On that occasion I gave a number of examples. I gave one particular case which the Minister admitted was a very hard case. Other Deputies cited other cases but, generally, the Minister was bound by the Act, and if a particular judge trying a case sentenced a man to a certain period of imprisonment, the Minister had no power and the pension was automatically forfeited. I would be glad to know from the Minister if the new machinery has been availed of to any extent and, if so, how many of these forfeited pensions have been restored either in whole or in part.

Mr. Colley

I cannot find any provision in the Estimates for pensions under the 1949 Act. There is certainly nothing in the same position as the pensions provided for under the 1924 and the 1934 Acts. I would like to hear if that is correct and, if so, why is that the position. Does the Minister not anticipate that any pensions will be paid under that Act this year?

Has the Minister considered increasing I.R.A. pensions on the same basis as that on which other classes of pensions have been increased? Surely, there is a case for that just as in the case of other pensions? In some cases there is, perhaps, even a better case. There are people getting a special allowance and the conditions in which they live and the meagre amount they get call out for serious attention. They certainly deserve an increase just as other pensioners, in view of the cost of living.

Mr. Davern

In my opinion the means test in the Special Allowance Act of 1946 is altogether too severe. Both the means test and the medical test are somewhat severe and it would be well if social welfare officers who, up to now, have been implementing that Act, would realise that they are not dealing with mercenary soldiers but with men who, during the best years of their lives, gave good service to this country. They were able to see the army of the enemy who occupied this country for over 700 years leave— and that was done as a result of their efforts. The amount given to most of these people is altogether too small. Every day in the week there is a complication arising with regard to old age pensioners and Old I.R.A. men in receipt of special allowances. When they get the old age pension the special allowance ceases and if they get the special allowance the old age pension ceases. It would be well if the Minister clarified that position, if necessary by legislation.

I am anxious to know how the 1949 Act will be implemented. What machinery will be set up? I ask the Minister particularly not to bring persons up from the country a distance of perhaps 100 miles at their own expense. They may have to remain in Dublin a day or two and that may be a hardship to them because they are men in advanced years, men in the autumn if not the winter of their lives. There should be some sort of local court set up. I do not care whether it is of the brigade or divisional type. It is scarcely fair to bring men a distance of 100 or 150 miles to Dublin. It will mean that unless local machinery is set up most, if not all, of those who have claims will have crossed the Jordan long before the Army Pensions Board, if one board is to deal with it, can possibly reach their applications.

With regard to Deputy Colley's appeal for an increase in pensions, there are definitely many Old I.R.A. men depending on these pensions and I would be quite happy to see new legislation, if necessary with the means test, introduced to increase military service pensions. I hope the Minister will treat sympathetically those people who have given the best years of their lives in voluntary service. Now, when the admission of want is there, I hope this appeal will not have fallen on deaf ears.

Mr. Byrne

The Minister knows exactly what is in my mind. I rise to ask him again if he can do anything for the ex-soldiers who are in married quarters in Dublin barracks. I understand there are 56 of them. They gave good service to the State and at the end of their service, when pensions were awarded them, they could not find housing accommodation and their pensions have been stopped from that day to this. Some of them are owed pensions for three years. I hope the Minister will make some kind of approach to the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Finance in order to give the usual grant for the building of houses so as to enable the corporation to deal with these cases. It was only yesterday or to-day that the Minister for Local Government said that the ex-soldiers in married quarters whose pensions are stopped are not on the priority list. I hope the Minister for Defence will appeal to the Local Government Department and the Finance Department, and also the corporation, so that something will be done to enable those men to draw their pensions.

Dr. O'Higgins

Deputy Traynor asked when the Referees will begin to function in the sense of having a physical hearing of appeals. The board was appointed some two months ago and the members have been occupied up to the moment drafting regulations and application forms and generally deciding on administrative procedure. I have at the moment in preparation an advertisement which I expect will be published throughout the country within the next week or ten days, which will call attention to the procedure to be adopted in making applications, etc. I imagine that the work of interviewing applicants will begin almost immediately.

Mr. Traynor

Did the Minister say that the interviewing of applicants would begin shortly?

Dr. O'Higgins

Yes. With regard to cases abroad, in the United States of America, principally, and in some other countries such as Australia, any reasonable steps which we can take to publicise the new Bill in such countries we will take them. The Deputy knows that a considerable number of applications from abroad came in too late for the previous Acts. We intend to notify those people at the last address that we have on record and so bring the matter to their attention. There are a number of people in touch with the Department who know of cases in America. We have told them to get in touch with those persons abroad. When the application forms come in they will be dealt with.

The third query was with regard to forfeited pensions. A number of forfeited pensions were restored under a recent Act. I have not with me particulars as to the actual number restored. I believe that all who applied under the Act have had their pensions restored, with the exception of a group of a dozen. There are a number who have not yet applied. People here and there may know of such cases. If the people concerned apply they will get an opportunity at all events of getting their pensions restored. As regards the bulk of the cases that have come in, the pensions have been restored. The cases that have been held up are mainly cases of serious crime where it has not been decided whether the pensions will be restored or not. The number of such cases would be in or about one dozen.

With regard to allowances under the special allowances scheme, as I am sure the Deputy is aware, it is not a case of a pension of any given amount to any person. The conditions necessary to qualify are uniform, namely, that the persons must be totally unfit by reason of health to earn a livelihood and must be totally unfit to earn a livelihood to a permanent degree. A person totally unfit to earn a livelihood through a disease that might be curable in one month or in six months would not qualify for the allowance. The person must be totally unfit to earn a livelihood to a permanent degree.

The second condition is that their means are such as to entitle them to an allowance. The amount given is not a fixed sum in each case. It is the sum that is sufficient to bring the income of that person, if the person is single, up to, I think, £80. If two people qualify on health grounds, and if one has an income of £60 a year, that person can only get £20 to bring his total income to £80. If the other person has no income he can get £80 to bring him up to the same figure.

Mr. Traynor

The case that I mentioned to the Minister was that of an individual who is bedridden.

Dr. O'Higgins

I forgot to refer to that but I will look up the case. I remember going into it.

Mr. Traynor

The point that I wanted to make was that the keep of the individual should, surely, not be regarded as income.

Dr. O'Higgins

It is one of a group of cases that I am trying to get a general ruling on. With regard to the query put by Deputy Alfred Byrne as to what I was doing, or proposed to do, with regard to getting houses for those soldiers in barracks, if I were not afraid that it would be ruled out of order as irrelevant, I was going to ask the Deputy what is he doing in that direction.

Mr. Byrne

I am trying to do all I can, but I want the Minister's help.

Dr. O'Higgins

The Deputy has far more influence with the Dublin Corporation than I have.

Mr. Byrne

Indeed I have not.

Dr. O'Higgins

I, at least, have got them to this point that both the Department of Local Government and the Dublin Corporation have agreed to recognise them as eligible for houses. That was a thing that was not admitted, or agreed to, 12 months ago. When we reached that point, the corporation then put this up: "Oh, yes, but will we get the high grant for these houses?" Now, I think that has not been settled.

Mr. Byrne

Will they get any grant?

Dr. O'Higgins

I am trying to get it fixed.

Question put and agreed to.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.