On the Adjournment, Deputy Dr. Brennan has given notice to raise the subject matter of Question No. 35 on the Order Paper.
Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Prices of Tomatoes.
In Question 35, which I put to the Minister for Industry and Commerce to-day with regard to the prices charged for tomatoes, with the object of protecting and encouraging the commendable efforts of tomato growers, I asked the Minister if he would enforce an Order controlling the prices of home-grown tomatoes on the basis of adding a percentage charge to the market price. The Minister did not see fit to accept the proposal which my question conveyed. I regret that, because the weapon which he used to defend the policy of non-interference by his Department in order to protect Irish tomato growers was the whip of the imported tomatoes. That is the way in which he refused what Irish tomato growers might have been led to expect from a native Government.
In recent weeks it has been noticeable that tomatoes which were bought in the market from 10d. to 1/6 and, in one case, to 1/9 per lb., were sold in shops which were quite adjacent to one another at 2/-, 2/6 and 3/-. I think that a Department which permits undue profiteering by any retailing section of the community is failing in its duty — that it should not only protect the tomato growers, but the purchasing public. It is no answer to state that this control is exercised by the importation of foreign tomatoes.
About two weeks ago tomatoes reached a phenomenal price in the Dublin shops. It is true to say, in justification of the Minister's attitude, that there were no Dutch tomatoes for sale on the Dublin market at that time. If there is on the part of the tomato growers as well as on the part of the retailers a desire to avail of every opportunity offered to profiteer at the expense of the public, surely that is a still greater reason why the Department should control the price of tomatoes.
It was stated in the reply to my question that control of that nature would be impracticable. It seems to me that the Department is failing in its duty. It is failing to protect the public and failing to encourage the development of this industry, and I think we may say that it is following in the tradition of its predecessors in evading a responsibility which it ought to bear, in the interests of an industry which does deserve the greatest encouragement.
The matter raised by Deputy Brennan is a very important one, and it is one to which I have referred before in the House. It seems to me that, if definite steps are not taken to regulate prices in the tomato-growing industry, and on the sales side of that industry, the industry is bound to find itself in a bad plight. I understand that representations have been made at various times to both the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Industry and Commerce by the representatives of the tomato growers as to the difficult situation in which native growers have found themselves over the past year or two. That difficult situation arises very largely from the unrestricted imports of Dutch tomatoes which occur during the months of the year when the native crop is most plentiful, during July, August, September and October.
This industry consists largely of approximately 650 growers. It represents a capital investment of £1,500,000, that is, in the provision of glass-houses, heating equipment and so on. The tomato growers' organisation claims that they employ something in the neighbourhood of 1,000 operatives. That number may be subject to examination, but, to my own knowledge, the number of men actually employed in the Dublin area runs into some hundreds, so far as wage workers are concerned. In my own constituency of North County Dublin, in Rush and Lusk and Skerries particularly, and in other parts of the county, there are a considerable number of small landowners, small farmers with anything from half an acre to four or five acres, working at this industry for a long period and trying to get a living from it.
During the years of the war, when imports of any kind were impossible, there was a pretty substantial return to any person who embarked on this particular line of business, and indeed the criticism which could have been made then was that no restriction whatever was placed, during those years, upon the price of tomatoes as they came to the consuming public. However, since the end of the war, with imports of all kinds becoming available to a greater extent, the Minister for Agriculture—and, we may assume, the Minister for Industry and Commerce — has adopted a policy of allowing unrestricted import of Dutch tomatoes, and this is having a disastrous effect upon the tomato-growing industry here.
I want to make it clear that, in raising this issue, I am not advocating an absolutely free hand for the Irish grower. I do not think it should be allowed. I do not think a situation wherein native growers can charge whatever price they like for tomatoes is any more desirable than the present situation, but there is a happy medium, and I think a situation can be brought about wherein the native grower can get a fair price for his produce and the consuming public will have to pay no more than a fair price for the tomato for which their taste has become so cultivated in the past seven or eight years. Any examination of the prices paid to the growers for tomatoes either last year or during the present year will prove very conclusively that, when there is a limited importation of Dutch tomatoes, the price to the Irish growers can be satisfactory, but that, when Dutch tomatoes are allowed in in large quantities, the price falls disastrously. In August of last year, for best quality Irish tomatoes, the price fell as low as 9d. and 7d. per lb., and in September of last year the price on the Dublin market fell to 7d. and 6d. per lb. in various weeks.
It has been stated in the House by advocates of free imports of tomatoes from other countries that the advantage is that the consuming public, the vast number of working-class people in the City of Dublin and throughout the country who want to buy tomatoes can buy them at a reasonable price, because there is this element of competition, this degree of imports from Holland; but I think that is being pushed to the point where the entire native industry is threatened with destruction. I do not think that Irish people, the ordinary Dublin City dweller or any person throughout the country who has a liking for tomatoes — and, as I have said, this taste for tomatoes has largely grown up over the past seven or eight years amongst our people—would object to the payment of a couple of pence extra per lb. for the Irish product because it is generally admitted by those who eat tomatoes that the Irish tomato is a better product, that it has a better flavour and a greater appeal to our people, so that it is not unreasonable that the growers should request some kind of preferential treatment, and I do not think they have asked for anything unreasonable in what they have been putting forward.
I understand that, on 23rd February this year, the Agricultural Association of Ireland, which represents these growers, put before the Minister the suggestion that there should be restriction of imports on a quota basis and that such quota should not be operated except when the price of Irish tomatoes fell to 1/- per lb. Surely we can at least consider, without any heat or histrionics, the possibility of guaranteeing a price on that level to our own people. I think we can assume that, if steps are taken to regulate this industry, it will expand and develop. The fact that no steps of that kind were taken led to abuses, when they did occur, in the past. We do not want to see any recurrence of fancy prices for tomatoes, but we do want to see a guaranteed fair price for the men who have invested their capital in the growing of tomatoes and who are employing labour.
The present situation in so far as those who are engaged for wages in the industry are concerned is that, when they seek increased wages from their employers, they are informed that, because of the uncertainty of the future of the trade, nothing can be done. We want some degree of certainty brought to this trade. It can be a very great asset and of very great value to the nation as a whole. I consider that the suggestion made by the association that there should be quota restrictions on the import of tomatoes is very reasonable.
The reply to the question put down by Deputy Dr. Brennan to-day indicated that the Minister was of the opinion that because of the various types and grades of tomatoes such regulation of price would be impossible. I do not subscribe to that view at all. It should not be beyond the ingenuity of the Minister and his Department to find some way of saving this trade from extinction which, apparently, faces it if steps are not taken.
It is remarkable that in 1949 the total imports of tomatoes amounted to 2,533 tons, to the value of £500,000. I am informed by people in the trade that Dutch tomatoes have been imported and sold in the City of Dublin at the price which was paid for them or at a loss in many cases. It is difficult to understand why that should happen. It is even more difficult to understand how the Dutch can export and ship to this country tomatoes which can be retailed at 1/4 per lb. It has been suggested that that can be done only by a method of subsidisation peculiar to Holland. That appears to be the case. Otherwise, having regard to the cost of production and transportation, it would be manifestly impossible to sell Dutch tomatoes here at 1/4 per lb.
Irish tomato growers, as I understand it, do not ask for subsidisation. They do not ask for any preferential treatment other than that which is accorded to most industries that we have encouraged in this country. It has been the policy to encourage native industry. Some time ago a circular was read at meetings of local authorities from the Minister for Industry and Commerce directing that as far as possible local authorities should encourage native industry in every possible way, should encourage the purchase of goods manufactured and produced in Ireland, and that all possible steps should be taken to make native industry as prosperous as it could be so that the maximum degree of employment could be maintained. Here we have a native industry which is of vital importance because it produces, I will not describe it as an essential foodstuff, but a foodstuff that is becoming part of the ordinary diet in most working-class homes. With that huge market available, we should see to it that tomatoes are produced in this country in sufficient quantity, if possible, to meet our own requirements.
The Deputy understands that the Adjournment is due to be taken at 10.25, not 10.30?
I understand that, and I will conclude in a minute. First, we should see to it that tomatoes are produced in sufficient quantities to meet our own requirements; secondly, that a price is guaranteed to the grower which will enable him to operate his business satisfactorily with some degree of security and without fear of loss: thirdly, and equally important, that tomatoes will be provided for the public at a price which they can afford to pay, a fair and reasonable price. That can be done either by quota restrictions or by fixation of prices at various levels.
Finally, I want to make this suggestion to the Minister and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to convey it to him: the situation can be met if the Minister will call a conference representative of all the interests in this industry — growers, retailers, wholesalers and workers.
Time is running out and I do not want to encroach upon the time of the Parliamentary Secretary, who will be replying. If there is anything wrong with the policy that is now being pursued in respect of the tomato-growing industry, the Deputies who have raised this question and who have spoken in regard to it have the remedy in their own hands. I believe that there is a good deal wrong with the policy that is being pursued by the present Government towards this industry. I believe that the origin of that policy dates back to the occasion on which the present Minister for Agriculture expressed his attitude towards the Gaeltacht scheme. We have had a continuance ever since of the hostility which was expressed at that time, which can only be rectified by Deputies who are supporting this Government taking action and adopting an attitude entirely different from that of merely coming in here and raising this matter after the business of the Dáil has concluded, for the purpose of getting a little bit of local publicity.
The Parliamentary Secretary must get ten minutes.
I strongly object to that last phrase of the Deputy's.
I believe that this is an industry that should be encouraged in every way.
The Parliamentary Secretary must get ten minutes.
I have expressed——
I must give the Parliamentary Secretary ten minutes, and he has not ten minutes now.
What I have to say is terribly awkward from the point of view of those who have to listen to it.
Not a bit awkward. Say it any time you like. This is only Party politics. It does not show much concern for the tomato growers.
I know the hypocrisy that is going on.
That does not show much concern for the tomato growers.
It is looking for votes you are.
I know that Deputies appreciate too well the immense advantages that this Government has brought to the country to be in any way deceived by Deputy Smith's intervention. I have no doubt that Deputies appreciate that it has been our aim to provide the public with tomatoes at a reasonable price. I think we can claim that that has been achieved.
As I understand the question put down by Deputy Dr. Brennan to-day, he wished to ascertain what steps the Minister would take to protect Irish tomato growers and the purchasing public. In reply to the Deputy, I informed him that a price of 1/4 per lb. has been fixed for imported tomatoes, but that it was not practicable to enforce control of home-grown tomatoes. When the Deputy raised the question on the Adjournment to-night, he referred to this answer and said that it was essential to introduce some control to protect the public. The aim of the Government has been to allow sufficient imports to ensure that the public are not exploited, but, in order to provide a measure of protection to home-growers, a duty of 2d. per lb. is operative from June to October. That provides protection to home-growers while it allows, during scarce periods, imports of tomatoes which, in turn, ensure that adequate supplies are available.
Deputy Dunne discussed a number of questions which raise the difficulty of providing protection for an industry of this sort, at the same time ensuring that the public are not exploited. The Deputy is anxious to see some form of control or assistance provided for the people who have invested their money in the industry or who are deriving their livelihood from it and, on the other hand, he is equally anxious to see that the public are not exploited.
Níl agus tá.
It is felt that it is necessary to provide the home growers with protection by a duty of 2d. per lb. It has secured the achievement of a fair price for tomatoes except in very exceptional circumstances when a short period of scarcity may occur.
Deputy Dr. Brennan referred to the fact that, during a period recently, tomatoes were bought at as low as from 10d. to 1/6 per lb. and subsequently sold at 2/-, 2/6 or 3/-. I think the Deputy will realise that tomatoes are different in size and quality and that it is not practicable to enforce a price control except, possibly, on a weight basis. The home-grown tomatoes are sold, in a number of instances, in the market but they are also sold directly to shops that are supplied by home growers. It is not, I think, easy to see what steps could be taken which would ensure effective control in these instances but, in so far as imported tomatoes are concerned, the price of 1/4, which has been fixed, has made it possible for the public here to get tomatoes at a reasonable price. Last week, or the week ending the 14th of this month, the prices on the Dublin market ranged from 1/- to 1/6 compared with 2/4 to 2/6 per lb. the previous week. During that week, a consignment of 30,000 boxes of Dutch tomatoes was imported and I understand that a further consignment is expected in the near future. The prices of tomatoes which have operated recently have been satisfactory. There are occasional exceptions. I think Deputy Dunne will also agree that the duty which has been imposed has provided a measure of protection. It may be that the protection is not sufficient in every instance, but the delicate question of where adequate protection is provided and at the same time a reasonable price for the goods operates is one which varies from time to time according to supply or according to the quantity which is available from home and imported sources.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.25 p.m. until Wednesday, 25th October, 1950.