On the motion for the Adjournment, Deputy B. Maguire has given notice to raise the subject-matter of Questions Nos. 60 and 61 on to-day's Order Paper.
Private Deputies' Business. - Adjournment Debate—Relief for Farmers.
Mr. Maguire
I have been forced to raise this question on the Adjournment because of the Minister's reply to my question to-day. Let me say at the beginning that I am not raising it through any political motive whatever. I am raising it as a matter of national importance. The Minister knows that because this matter has been the subject of correspondence between the Minister and myself over the last few months. About the latter part of September I foresaw that harvest conditions then were such as to indicate a very dangerous prospect for the future. I am speaking of the parts of the country with which I am familiar, and of the hearvest conditions there at that time. As a result of the correspondence I had with the Minister, and of a previous question which I put down here some weeks ago, it became evident to me that the Minister was not fully aware of the conditions that obtained in the part of the country that I come from, or of the position of the farmers there whom I represent. The Minister's reply to-day convinces me that he has not had direct information of the conditions that obtain in those particular areas. My question referred particularly to the West and the North-West. The Minister's reply implied that he was dealing with the whole country and not with a particular part of it. Hence I decided to raise this question tonight so that I might more definitely and accurately state what I had in view.
The Minister, in his reply, stated that he himself had lost all his hay, that it had been destroyed by fire and that he had to make alternative arrangements. That has nothing to do with the questions which were put down by Deputy Flanagan and myself. These questions dealt with the actual emergency which exists as a result of bad weather conditions. The Minister went on to state that there were alternatives which existed, and he mentioned that many farmers had already dug a pit and ensiled surplus grass and other green fodder.
Now, the Minister's answer as regards the destruction of his own hay, which was unfortunate, had nothing to do with the general conditions prevailing amongst the farmers whom I represent. It is absurd for the Minister to suggest that they would be able to provide ensilage at this juncture to meet their requirements arising out of the bad harvest. The farming community, as a whole, have not yet adapted themselves to the use of ensilage. I think I can speak with much more authority on ensilage than the Minister. I am an older man than he is, and as a practical farmer for many years—this also applies to those who went before me—we had adapted ourselves to the use of it. It is very unfortunate, however, that farmers generally have not adopted that very useful means of providing themselves with even better fodder than the hay obtained under the best harvest conditions. However, that is so. There is no use now in recommending farmers to use ensilage when it is too late for them to do so. To suggest that, is no contribution towards a solution of the conditions that now confront them.
It may be true, in a general way, that there is sufficient hay of sorts in some districts, but that is not the position in the districts in the West and North-West. In order to illustrate the conditions that prevail there, may I mention that the farmers in the North of Ireland are, I understand, importing hay from Scotland and Holland. Bad weather conditions can have a more adverse effect in the districts in the West and North-West than they probably would have in the Midlands or in the South. The fact remains that, as a result of the best efforts that could be made, the position in the more extreme parts of the West and North-West is such that there is a serious shortage of hay. I suggested to the Minister some weeks ago that, as there was not sufficient hay available in the districts I speak of for the number of stock there, he might consider paying a subsidy on the killing off of a certain number of the younger stock. As the fodder is not available, it will be impossible for farmers to prepare those cattle in the ordinary way for the market. I might illustrate the situation that exists in this way. At a fair in Manorhamilton a fortnight or three weeks ago a farmer sold four cows for £26. These cows were due to calve some time next spring.
At £6 10s. apiece?
Mr. Maguire
Yes. If a farmer has no hay to feed to his cattle will he not be well pleased to accept any price that is offered to him? The fact, however, is that these four cows, which were due to calve next spring, were sold for £26 at that fair last month or in September. What is the position of that farmer going to be next spring when there is a scarcity of in-calf cattle if he attempts to restock his farm? How is he going to be able to replace those four cows that he had to sell for £26? It is because of the seriousness of that position that I am raising this question this evening. I want to bring it to the Minister's notice. Manorhamilton is near the Border, and as I have said, the farmers in the Six Counties are importing hay from Scotland and Holland. There is no use in blaming the farmers there because they do not make ensilage or because they do not retain their oats. They do not grow a lot of oats. It is a poor part of the country, almost entirely dairying with tillage in a very minor way. The situation that has arisen in that area will have this result, that one-third of the farmers there will be eliminated if the Minister does not take cognisance of the facts which I have stated and come to their rescue in some way. It is now too late to make ensilage. I admit that farmers have shown no ambition at all to engage in the making of ensilage or in adopting other methods for saving grass. Instead, they stick to the old method of saving the hay in spite of the fact that a crisis like this has arisen before. How many cattle will die of starvation in the coming spring as a result of an insufficient supply of feeding stuffs?
Cattle, any more than humans, cannot live without the necessary nutriment, and if the feeding-stuffs are not available, what will be the result? You will undermine the whole of the cattle industry of the country because the farmers in this part of the country produce stores mainly, which they self when they are six or twelve months old. At present when these farmers bring their calves which have reached the age of six or 12 months to the market they find that they are unsaleable. It is true, as the Minister said, that in the Dublin market there has been an appreciation in the price of certain types of stock, but these are well-conditioned animals of a more mature age. The production of these animals is possible only because the people in the West of Ireland rear their stock until they have reached the age of 12 months or so and then sell them as stores to the midland farmers who, in turn, sell them off as finished animals when they have reached the age of 18 months or two years. I have no desire to score any political points in this debate, but I assure the Minister that the people who rear these young stock are going to be driven out of the industry by the present conditions because young cattle will undoubtedly die of starvation unless something is done to assist these farmers. What will happen when the spring comes around again, when there will be a marked diminution in the number of the store cattle available? Many of them will have died off because of lack of feeding stuffs. Apart from the immediate loss to the farmer, will there not be a diminution in the number of stores required in the midlands and elsewhere? Will that not result in increased prices all round, even an increase in the price of meat here in Dublin?
I want the Minister to realise that we are dealing with a fundamental question here, namely, the raw material of our most important industry. That raw material is the young stores produced by the dairy farmers in that part of the country, who do practically no tillage and who have no reserves of ensilage, oats or barley. The people of this area have been particularly badly struck by the climatic conditions of the late summer. As evidence of that fact, I again refer the Minister to the importation of hay from Scotland and Holland by their next-door neighbours, the northern farmers. The condition of affairs in the country generally is bad but in certain districts it is more than bad; it is disastrous. Can anything be done about it? I suggested to the Minister in a letter some weeks ago that he might consider the killing off of the less mature animals and so reduce the demand for feeding stuffs in the country. If the number of stock were diminished by killing them off and exporting the meat under subsidy, nobody would suffer a financial loss. The farmer to whom I refer is the cornerstone of the live-stock trade of this country. Under normal conditions he feeds these young cattle through the winter and sells them off in February, March or April to the midland farmers who finish them off. I do not think it unreasonable at this juncture to ask the Government to ensure that these men should be kept in production. If the Minister considers that it would be wrong to subsidise meat for export, then let him consider the other side of it. Why not subsidise the killing off of a certain number of cattle whose meat could be offered for sale to our people in the City of Dublin or elsewhere at a cheaper rate? Certainly something must be done and some assistance should be made available so as to make it possible to dispose of this meat on the home or foreign market rather than allow these cattle to die and be pitched into a bog hole. In that way these farmers would be put in a position to resume their ordinary activities as producers of young cattle when grass becomes again available.
I submit these suggestions to the Minister without any prejudice whatever with a view to ensuring that the Minister will cause an exhaustive and full examination to be made of the conditions to which I refer. I do not think I have exaggerated them in any way and I had no intention of doing so. In certain parts of the country, the Minister might ameliorate the present conditions by perhaps a subsidy on Indian meal or other feeding stuffs. In that way, he might contribute also towards averting the terrible consequences of the present conditions which if they are allowed to take their full course, will militate against cattle production in this country for many a day. If the people have to endure these heavy losses, the young cattle trade in the poorer districts will be practically wiped out for many years to come.
May I join——
The Minister must be allowed ten minutes to reply.
I shall not detain the House very long. I rise for the purpose of expressing my agreement with the case put forward by Deputy Maguire. Conditions in certain areas are very bad, particularly in the constituency which I represent. I do say, however, that whatever action the Minister proposes to take, I hope he will give no consideration to any proposal to slaughter off young animals because we had that daft and crazy performance by the late Government. Young animals were slaughtered wholesale. The Lord's ways are always slow but sure and it appeared as if a curse fell on this country a short time afterwards when we had the terrible outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease as a result of which some of the finest beasts in the country had to be slaughtered. We do not want a recurrence of that.
I desire to bring before the Minister the conditions obtaining in the Shannon area of South Laoighis, particularly in the Luggacurran and other districts and in the Nore valley area. There is nothing surer than that live stock will die of starvation in these areas if some steps are not taken to provide sufficient feeding stuffs. There is no hay in these areas; the hay crop has been completely destroyed. We all sympathise with the Minister on the loss of his hay but that does not concern us so much because he is in a far better position to replace what he has lost than these small farmers who are dependent on the rearing of young live stock for a livelihood.
Attempts have been made by farmers in Laoighis and Offaly districts to dispose of their stock in view of the imminent shortage of foodstuffs but they found that there was practically no sale for them. I went to the trouble of inquiring what the sales were like at Kilcormac fair to-day, and I am told that people were forced to bring home their live stock or sell them off for practically little or nothing. That is a state of affairs that should not be allowed to continue. I think the Minister should not tell us that he expects Deputies and other people to come forward with suggestions to meet the situation. It is his job as Minister for Agriculture to find a remedy. That is the job he is paid for. That is the reason resolutions were passed by the Laoighis Co. Committee of Agriculture and the Offaly Co. Committee of Agriculture concerning the deplorable conditions in that area. I agree with Deputy Maguire that the position is very serious. In recent times I seldom raise my voice in this House, but I desire now to impress upon the Minister the seriousness of the situation, not with any object of criticising him but to assist him in any efforts he may take to put matters right. If he does not put them right the best part of the Midland farmers and the farmers of other areas will be completely beggared and will not be in a position to pay rates, rents, taxes, or anything else.
Mr. J. Flynn rose.
—I assume that the Minister must be heard, so I will call upon the Minister.
I have only ten minutes. No one can doubt that the loss of part of the hay crop is a most serious problem for the small farmer who has had the misfortune to suffer that loss. This is the eighth day of November. Six weeks ago the chief inspector of my Department was in touch with the secretary of every county committee of agriculture in Ireland. Every officer of my Department whose duty takes him through the country has been under express instructions from me to keep me constantly posted of the conditions obtaining in every several area where his duties brought him. Regularly for the last six weeks the chief inspector of my Department has made a report to me as to the impressions he forms from day to day from the information reaching him. To listen to Deputy Maguire talking, few Deputies would realise that we live within 20 miles of each other. The last 25 years of my life have been spent living among farmers, the largest of whom has a farm of 20 acres and many of them are rearing families on eight acres. Does the Deputy imagine that I am not anxious about them? Have I not lived out of them all my life? Anything I have I got out of them. The only danger in which I stand is that my reaction to every agricultural problem is unduly coloured by the intimacy of my acquaintance with the ten-acre man and that I find it hard to discharge my full duty in giving appropriate consideration to the interests of the larger farmer whose servant I am just as much as I am the servant of my own neighbour.
Am I to go and join in the codology going on in Northern Ireland and bring hay in from Norway by ship?
Mr. Maguire
It is no codology.
If there are dafties up there that is no reason why we should go daft after them. What is hay? Is it not food? Is our purpose not to bring in food when we want it? When we bring in food, should we not bring in the best food?
Mr. Maguire
What is that?
What do you consider when you are carrying goods by sea? Is it weight or bulk? Does the veriest owner of a currach not know that if you are carrying goods by sea, weight is a matter of indifference and that bulk is the limiting factor? What sane man, if he can carry cereals or hay across the sea to live stock, would carry hay? I am not going to engage in that kind of tripish codology because there are damn fools in some parts of the country prepared to do it.
I have told Deputies that I most fully appreciate and most heartily sympathise with the difficulties the farmers have to contend with, but I do not think that my sympathy will do anybody any good. What I went on to say was that every resource I am possessed of will be mobilised to bring feed within reach of any farmer in Ireland whose live stock is short of the wherewithal to feed them and to see that no beast on any farm in Ireland will suffer the deterioration of a shilling for want of food. What is the use of the Deputy's wagging his head at me? What good can I do?
Mr. Maguire
Give us a practical demonstration of how you are going to do it.
There will be in every town an ample supply of maize meal every day, all day, every week from now until the 1st of April.
Mr. Maguire
Surely the Minister has to consider the cost of maize meal at 30/- a cwt. and the amount of maize meal required?
The Deputy had his 20 minutes; give me ten.
Dr. Maguire rose.
I assert—and I know what I am talking about, and I require no medicos to instruct me in it—that the price of yearling cattle is now stiffening on rural markets and the individual who persuades the small farmer to bring out his yearling cattle now and sell them to the tanglers in order that the tanglers can bring them further for the purpose of robbing that man is doing a desperate disservice to the small farmer. I stake my voice against the panic-mongers and I say to the small farmers in Cavan, Leitrim, Monaghan and Mayo, in Galway, Clare and Kerry not to sell their cattle now unless they get their full value, and if any tangler comes to their gate to tell them that their cattle will die of starvation my advice to them is to take the loy and chase him down the road. I tell farmers who have young cattle now that there is not the slightest danger of a single one of them dying of starvation.
Deputies
There is.
If there is one small farmer in the country who has cattle on his holding and who envisages a danger that those cattle will die of starvation let him write to me and I will see that feed is on his farm within 12 hours of receiving his letter.
They are swimming around the Shannon valley.
Drainage in the Shannon valley is quite a separate question.
You took those two questions together instead of dealing with them separately.
The Deputy should not be so eloquent. The Deputy rebuked me about my failure to make provision for the flooded farmers of the Shannon valley.
There was every need to.
I demonstrated to the Deputy on that occasion that the farmers to whom he then referred had severally been offered holdings of land outside the flooded area in which they were then living and that some of them had accepted them and that others had elected to remain where they were. This is a free country. The duty of the Government was to make available to the farmers suffering from flooding in the Shannon area the opportunity of transfer, but it is no duty of this Government—and God grant that it never will be—to go to the small farmers of the Shannon valley or anywhere else and order them out of their own homes. I showed the Deputy the facts and I obliged him to confess that it was the truth.
That was not the area that I was concerned with.
It was the area of which the Deputy complained bitterly in this House, and I went to the trouble of finding out the facts lest the Deputy should feel that the people about whom he was concerned had been overlooked and every farmer had been offered an alternative farm and only those who said that they were not prepared to go stayed.
What about the hay?
Give the Minister a chance.
Deputy Dr. Maguire has nothing to do with the farmers of the country. I am not concerned with hay. I am concerned with securing where hay has been lost that the farmer who lost it will have at his disposal an alternative which will keep his cattle safe and sound until he has the opportunity of getting their full value. I venture to swear that the farmers of Monaghan will have a great deal more confidence in my solicitude for their welfare than they are ever likely to have in the bleatings of Deputy Dr. Maguire. Deputy Dr. Maguire knows as much about this problem as my foot and he should keep quiet about it.
No small farmer of the type referred to by Deputy Maguire will suffer the loss of a single beast if he takes reasonable precautions to preserve them and to every small farmer in Ireland I give the assurance individually that he can bespeak the assistance of the Department of Agriculture and that each several case will get assistance to the limit of the Department's capacity to provide.
Mr. Maguire
Will the Minister state now——
Tá an Dáil ar ath-ló.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 9th November, 1950.