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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 6 Mar 1951

Vol. 124 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Price of Milk.

I gave notice that I wished to raise the subject matter of the following question which I asked of the Minister for Agriculture on the 22nd February, 1951, namely, if he will state whether he will now take steps to increase the price paid for milk supplied to creameries so as to give farmers the cost of production and a reasonable profit in view of his replies to questions on the 14th February, which disclosed (i) that the exports of butter from this country last year were 61,646 cwt. and imports to date 50,000 cwt., and (ii) that, owing to the small quantity of butter in cold store coupled with the very low production at present, it may be necessary to import considerably more than was exported, and at a higher price. The Minister, in his reply to that question stated:—

"As I informed Deputies Smith and Patrick D. Lehane, in reply to questions on this subject asked by them on the 14th and 21st instant, no change in creamery milk prices is in contemplation."

I submit that it is poor encouragement to the farmers who are producing this very essential food for the people of this State to insist on the prices fixed for milk supplied to creameries, I think, in April, 1947. It is poor encouragement to insist on these prices now when most farmers, at the time the prices were last fixed, said that they were not at all adequate. I submit that to insist that the prices be pinned down to that level, in spite of the grossly increased costs of production since then, is not dealing justly with the people who are producing this very essential foodstuff for the population.

On another occasion about a year ago, when I raised the matter of milk prices by way of motion, the Minister, in refusing to accept the motion, pointed to the greatly increased production of milk over the years 1948 and 1949 in comparison with the year 1947. He gave the figures and, at least by implication, claimed credit for that increase in milk production. He pointed to it as an indication that the farmers were well satisfied with the prices then existing. Not alone did he point to the increase in milk production, but he also pointed to the number of farmers who had begun to supply milk to creameries and who had not done so before. He also pointed to the increase in the number of cows, starting from the spring of 1947 which had been a disastrous year. It was, therefore, a very low point from which to make comparisons. But, even with that, and even with increases in production since—and I will make full allowance for all the additions, including the increased value of a dropped calf in comparison with what it was worth before—I propose to show the House that the present creamery milk price is not adequate. Take the increased charges that have occurred even since the prices of milk were last fixed. I think that even now the Minister should endeavour to persuade his colleagues in the Government that it is not justice to pin down the present prices in face of the conditions that exist at present. I made a few calculations in respect of the increased costs of production since 1947, and they may be of interest to the House. I shall go over them hurriedly.

The increase in national health insurance amounts to 13/- per week. Employers' liability shows an increase of 27½ per cent., amounting roughly to £1 5s. Annual holidays with pay, at the rate of £3 per week, amounts to £3— and now the half holiday, even at the minimum rate of wage, amounts to £13. The total for all that increase is £17 18s. per man per year. These are additional charges that had not been there before 1947 or even in 1947. In addition to that, there has been a minimum increase in wages of 10/- a week, amounting to another £26 a year and making a total of £43 18s. There again, I am not taking advantage of a technicality because, in reality, the increase has been 16/- a week instead of 10/- since the wages, at the time the milk prices were fixed, were 44/- a week in comparison with the present wage of £3 per week. Even at 10/- a week, it gives an increase of £43 18s. per worker per year. Then there are also the increased rates on land, the increased cost of machinery and parts, the increase in the cost of repairs to buildings and equipment, and all the other incidentals including increased cost of running the creamery this year which may take another penny or three-halfpence per lb. of what the farmer will get for his butter fat that go to make up the cost of production. We are now threatened with a further increase under the Social Welfare Bill, if it becomes law. However, these are all the increases. We shall have to make allowance, of course, for the increased yield of milk per cow due to favourable weather, good grass and so forth. Against that, however, we shall have to charge the additional amount in the cost of fertilisers which help to produce the good grass that has led to the increase in milk.

The increased milk supply, taken over the three years, has not been very heavy. In reply to a recent question by me as regards milk yields over the three-year period, I was told that the average yield of milk supplied to creameries in 1947 was 303 gallons per cow: in 1948 the yield was 322 gallons per cow and in 1949 the yield was 358 gallons per cow. That gives an average over the three-year period of 328 gallons per cow.

That is milk delivered to the creamery. No account is had there of the milk happily consumed at home.

I made that point at the outset.

There was not any milk at home in 1947. They drank black tea.

Those milk supplies are from Limerick as well as from Cavan but the average number of cows per milk supplier over the whole State is 6½. The value of the milk supplied to the creamery per supplier was £142 13s. 7d., calculated at 80 per cent. of milk supply at ½ per gallon and 20 per cent. of milk supply at ¼ per gallon— an income of approximately £22 per cow over the whole State in 1949, which was very favourable.

And the calf?

Yes, and there is also something for the skimmed milk which is returned from the creamery, but it does not yield a very big amount. However, it would give an average return of about £19 15s. Od. per cow over the three years for the milk supplied to the creamery.

When I was dealing with this subject on a motion last year I had not all these figures available but I dealt with figures of milk supplied to the Killeshandra creamery. The Minister endeavoured to ridicule the idea of the Killeshandra cow. However, the average is not very much higher over the whole State although farmers in other areas have better opportunities for the production of milk because of the better land which they have for their cows. That is the increased cost which must be borne by the producer.

As I have said, the Minister was always very ready to quote increased milk supplies and to point to the fact that if that production continued, there would be a surplus of butter which would have to be exported. As a matter of fact, addressing the annual meeting of the Irish Agricultural Organisation on the 3rd May, 1950, the Minister, after quoting these figures, is reported in the Irish Independent of 3rd May as saying:—

"If these figures are maintained throughout the year, we are going to have a sizable surplus of butter over and above what our people are prepared to consume, and on each cwt. of butter we lose £4 if we export it."

That brings us to another point. I have always made the point that the cost of production should be the consideration in arriving at the price, not the expediency of having to export or to import, or anything of that kind because, unfortunately, the farmer is tied in buying his requirements on the home market. As a result of that the industrial community benefits. However, I shall not go into that at the moment. The point is, as results have proved now, that taking any period— three years, five years or whatever period you like—I think we can safely make up our minds that the production of butter is not likely to exceed the requirements of consumers in the State. It has been proved conclusively by the replies to questions which I put to the Minister that the amount of butter which we export and the amount that had to be imported later to maintain consumption reached a pretty level figure—61,000 cwt. exported and 50,000 cwt. imported up to 31st January. There is also the fact that the production of butter in December, January and February and the withdrawals of butter from cold storage, leave a very small surplus in cold storage on 31st January. If the state of the weather continues as it has been for some time past, I believe that we shall have to import another 50,000 cwt. to meet consumption. The price which we received for the butter which we exported was £17 9s. 4d. per cwt., whereas for the Danish butter which we imported we paid £18 19s. 0d. per cwt., and for the New Zealand butter £18 16s. 0d. per cwt. We, therefore, received something like 27/- per cwt. less for what we sold than what we paid for the butter we have now to import to maintain the present standard of consumption.

Although it might be said that if we increase the price of milk here, the taxpayers would have to pay £4. per cwt. to subsidise it—I always maintained that that subsidy would not be a subsidy to the producer but a subsidy to the consumer—it has now been proved by the fact that the Minister has been forced to import butter at this price. When we add on the margin between wholesale and retail prices, which is something like 31/4 per cwt., it means that Danish butter supplied to the consumers is now costing the taxpayers of this State 1/- per lb. If we accept the statement advanced in the past that it was the producer that was being subsidised, it follows the taxpayers of this State are subsidising the foreigner to the extent of 1/- per lb. on butter imported. That, I think, should prove the fallacy of the argument that it is the producer that is being subsidised. Certainly, the Minister or the consumer in this State cannot have it both ways. If it had been a subsidy to the producer, then we are subsidising the foreigner instead of giving an opportunity to our own people, by an increased price, to maintain production. During the favourable years of 1948 and 1949, production was maintained at a fairly high level, but it was inevitable that we would strike a bad patch some time and it has now come upon us. In November last, I warned the Minister of the danger of that. Speaking on the question of the danger of a decrease in the cattle population due to bad hay, I said, as reported in column 1027 of Volume 123, on the 16th November:—

"We have to visualise what would be the condition of the milk supplies about March and April next when the cows are four or five months eating this bad hay. Apart from the farmers who own those cows and whose problems will be to keep them alive, other sections of the community should regard the matter very seriously because, if the contingency should arise, which God forbid, that we should have another winter like the winter of 1946-47, what will be the prospect for milk supplies and, consequently, the ration of butter for the population? Despite the fact that there is a very good reserve of butter in cold storage, we can easily reach a point where the ration of butter would again have to be reduced. Let us hope it will not go to the point that it reached in 1947 when we had a ration of four ounces or, for a short period I think, of two ounces per week. Now is the time to guard against that by taking steps to safeguard the cows and other cattle as well, but I think we should base our efforts on the cow population as it is fairly well related to the total cattle population and is the source from which other cattle spring."

That goes to prove that you were entirely wrong in your apprehensions.

I warned the Minister that we would have to import perhaps up to 100,000 cwts of butter. The Minister has made the point that there was never so much butter consumed or produced.

So much produced and consumed.

That is right. I am not surprised at that, because, at the price of 2/8 per lb., I know of no food which the consumer can get so cheaply. I am not surprised that butter consumption has increased, although the Minister at the time he addressed the Agricultural Organisation Society said that we had reached a point where the public would not consume any more. However, it seems they have.

Thanks be to God.

That is due to the price at which they can buy it.

They consume more than any other people in Europe.

The point is that we cannot import butter from any other country at the same price as that at which our producers are forced to sell it and, while we are paying a higher price to outside producers, we are doing an injustice to producers here who are endeavouring to produce sufficient to meet home consumption. The Minister should endeavour to persuade his colleagues in the Government, particularly the members of the Labour Party, who have gained so much in the past few years, to be just to the people who are doing their best, under difficult circumstances, to maintain home production.

Deputy O'Reilly is always dreeing his weird. According to him, we are always going to meet catastrophe, starvation, ruin and destitution. He told us that he warned us last November that if we were not very careful we would soon be down to the 1947 ration of 2 ounces.

I made no such point.

I thought that was what you read out. Thanks be to God, Deputy O'Reilly is doing his part in the consumption of the 13½ ounces per skull in this country. There is no country in the whole of Europe which is eating so much butter. The Danes are held up to us very frequently as being great producers of butter. They are consuming 2½ ounces of butter per head per week and exporting the rest. Our people are consuming 13½ ounces per week.

What has that to do with the farmer's cost of the production of it?

I will tell you. We imported butter this year to replace butter that we exported earlier in the year. We exported butter early on, (1) because the supply was so vast that I had no cold store to hold it, and (2) because I did not realise that our people were going to consume 13½ ounces per head of it. The consumption of butter here is higher than in any other country in the world. Accordingly, I took precautions. Looking back over the increased production and of the consumption in previous years and what would appear to be likely now, we would have plenty of butter to give the ration, but I do not see why we should restrict our people if they want to buy butter from abroad.

I can tell the Deputy another way of getting sufficient butter from domestic production. The milk which is sold for the manufacture of chocolate crumb and for condensed milk fetches 1/7 a gallon. I could stop the condensed milk and divert the milk for the making of butter at ½ a gallon but I would not do that. I do not see why the farmers should not get 1/7 a gallon for any milk that they can convert into a product such as chocolate crumb. I never said that the butter subsidy was a subsidy for the producer. The subsidy on butter is a subsidy for consumers in this country.

I am glad to hear the Minister say that.

Did I ever say anything else? The Deputy wants to take a slate off somebody else's roof, but why does he not put the thatch on his own instead of snarling and growling? I never said that the subsidy was a subsidy for producers. I pointed out a hundred times that if we were free to ship our butter abroad, we could sell every ounce of it for the full 3/6 per lb. that we are getting for the unrationed butter. Deputy O'Reilly said that I said it was a producers' subsidy. I never said that. I ask the House to face the facts. If the dairy farmers of the country are having such a bad time, why is it that the quantity of milk received at the creameries has gone up as it has since 1946? In that year, the quantity received was 165,000,000 gallons. In 1947, the quantity was 154,000,000 gallons; in 1948, 170,000,000 gallons; in 1949, 207,000,000 gallons and in 1950, 222,423,000 gallons. Greatly increased costs of production my foot! If you want to produce creamery milk in this country, you can produce it on growing grass. At the present time, about 8½d. will produce a gallon of milk on growing grass, according to the costs of production that I have got from Deputy Corry and his friends in University College, Cork.

That statement is untrue.

It is true.

It is a damn lie.

The Deputy wants to get put out again.

The Deputy should withdraw that remark in the interests of decency and of the decorum of the House.

The Minister has quoted figures from a document he got from me. He has misread the document and misquoted it. He knows that he is doing that.

The Deputy is deliberately disobeying the Chair.

The Minister is a liar.

Deputy Corry withdrew from the Chamber.

Deputy O'Reilly draws strange allies to his case. If a man wants to carry cows which are producing milk through the winter he ought to carry them on grass silage. Since 1947, the average price received for milk throughout the country has been increased. There has been a diversion of supplies to more profitable products such as chocolate crumb. The average has been 1/2½d. and 1/3½d., and over the same period the value of a dropped calf has gone up by £5. For the man with a 400-gallon cow, that represents an increase of 3d., and if you take the two things together it means an increase of 4d. a gallon. With the increased output of grass which can be derived from the land now as compared with some years ago, far from the cost of producing milk having increased, the cost can probably be reduced in view of the greater facilities which are now available to farmers, facilities enabling them to get on credit milking machines and the like. These facilities should enable most farmers in this country to do not only the milking but the delivery of the milk to the creameries at much less cost than when all that had to be done by manual labour.

Milking machines with an average of 6½ cows on our farms?

Why not? Why does the Deputy want to keep our people for ever in the dirt? I want to make the small farmers of this country as proud and independent as the big fellows, and I think I am making a pretty good fist of it. It is the small farmers who have got most of the jam in the last three years. So long as I am Minister for Agriculture, the small farmers will continue to get that. I want to see the small farmers enjoying all those amenities which used to be considered the prerogative of the landlords. We put the landlords out of the country in order to get for the small tenant purchasers and their children the kind of things which their fathers never had but which they are going to have now.

Milk is not the only product on our farms. Unless we have mixed farming in this country there will be no farming. If farmers will not keep pigs and poultry, if they will not grow barley, roots and grass, and if they will do nothing but keep milch cows and then clamour about getting a living out of milk, then they are going to go burst, and nothing that I can do will stop it. But if they bring their milk to the creamery and take home the skim milk for feeding their pigs and poultry and knock as much as they can out of every acre of land they have, at the same time leaving the land a little better in the autumn than they found it in the spring, then there is a good living to be made by all of them. Instead, we have all this moaning and groaning from Deputy O'Reilly, even though he knows, and I know, that the people in the County Cavan who are living on the land were never better off in their lives, and that every day that passes they are getting better off. His purpose and my purpose is to establish the people on the land of Cavan in a state of independence which will enable them to put anyone off their land whom they have not invited on it. They cannot do that unless they are able to pay their way and save a little every year, and my intention is to see that every year they will have a little more for themselves and a little more to put by until I have made every single one of them independent men, in a position to say to the Minister for Agriculture and to all the officers of his Department: "Go to hell" whenever they want to.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 7th March, 1951.

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