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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 Nov 1951

Vol. 127 No. 5

Reports from Committees. - Supplies and Services (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1946 (Continuance) Bill, 1951—Second Stage (Resumed).

Before continuing on the line I was attempting to adopt yesterday, I want to correct a misstatement I made yesterday or, if you like, an incorrect statement. While referring to the Central Bank, I was subjected to a continuous running fire of interruptions and was slightly thrown off balance. Referring to the functions of the Central Bank, I stated, quite wrongly, that among its functions was to provide money at cheap rates of interest for local authorities. In that I was quite wrong and I take this opportunity to correct the mistake I made. There are, however, very substantial sums of money under the control of the State, Post Office savings for example, and this sum of money which Deputy Norton, when he was Minister for Social Welfare, was going to spend on the acquisition of a luxury suite of offices now known as the bus station. These funds are made available for loans to local authorities at lower rates.

I also referred to the deposits in the Central Bank by our joint stock banks and I am afraid that I again made a statement which could quite correctly be described as misleading or wrong. I said that the banks did put on deposit in the Central Bank moneys deposited with them by their clients. What I should have said—I have since given myself a chance to think about it—was that the Central Bank has power to request our joint stock banks to lodge with them at any time certain sums of money by way of deposits if the Central Bank itself requests the Minister for Finance to examine the matter on the grounds that the banks may possibly be attempting to restrict credit and are not lending money to the extent they should lend it in relation to the deposits they have.

Where does that appear in the Bank Act?

In that I am correct, I am sure.

Surely the purpose of that is to prevent the joint stock banks from lending money?

Both. On the one hand if they refuse to lend money for the specific purpose of restricting credit, as a deliberate policy of credit restriction, then they can be asked by the Central Bank to lodge with them without any interest charge whatever, substantial portions of the deposits lodged with them. Alternatively, if it is felt that they are extravagant in the giving of credit which might not seem in the interests of the community at large they can again be asked to lodge a certain amount of money.

Nota bene. Note that power.

I think it will be agreed that the bank has that power. Whether it exercises it or not I do not know. I have not attempted to find out.

It would be worth while.

The Deputy can put a question down and find out.

That would be quite legitimate but I did not find it out. I am referring to the power of the Central Bank. That bank issues our paper money which is in circulation and by the law under which the Central Bank was set up it has to carry out its operations in a certain manner in order to have the creation of liquid money in the bank for the purposes of the community. The previous powers which the joint stock banks held were changed. There was a time when the only people issuing paper money in this country, outside the money from across the water, were the joint stock banks and, with the establishment of the Currency Commission and subsequently the Central Bank, the issue of these notes was gradually reduced and the Central Bank is now the issuer of our paper money.

Thanks for all that information.

I do not know whether the Deputy knew that or not, but some Deputies do not and the public do not.

I think that is something of an over-simplification of a rather complex matter.

The Deputy should understand that there have been so many malicious efforts to undermine the whole situation——

Hear, hear!

——of the currency and credit of this country within the country that it is about time the people understood——

And before this day is out they will, with the help of God.

The Deputy will probably be able to show these malicious——

I will show that this is the most prosperous country in Europe unless ye ruin it.

And we hope that the fear created by a good many people will be removed.

Hear, hear!

I remember that after the change of Government in 1948 our Tánaiste made a speech from the benches opposite and said:—

"After 16 years of Fianna Fáil Government we have handed over to you a country in sound condition. Remember when you vacate office to hand it back in the same condition."

I think that Deputies will remember that and I think that they will agree that the country has been handed back in a very wounded and dangerous condition.

How did we get it?

There has been talk about where we are going to get capital, how we are to provide capital, how we are to create capital assets. The greatest capital asset the country had was destroyed after the change of Government in 1948. We are now filled with the desire to sell what we have to sell, the surplus commodities of this country, to other countries in order to secure what is known as hard currency and one of the best hard currency undertakings this country had was the transatlantic air services. It was sold for sterling which shortly afterwards became less in value as a result of devaluation and notwithstanding that particular loss to reacquire such machines to-day you would have to pay increased hard currency prices for them.

A physical asset was thrown away and its dollar-earning capacity with it and all the employment that would have been given of a very high standard. Yet we talk here about capital expenditure.

To my amazement, I heard Deputy Cosgrave yesterday attempting to suggest that it was the Coalition Government which was to be thanked for the rural electrification scheme. I remember sitting in these benches when the Tánaiste introduced a Bill to provide £20,000,000 for rural electrification, half of which was to be given by way of subsidy by the State over the period of years which the rural electrification scheme would take. I remember, after the change of Government, several of us continually asking questions as to whether the then Minister for Industry and Commerce was satisfied that the rural electrification scheme was being proceeded with at the rate contemplated before the change of Government. Yet we had Deputy Cosgrave yesterday repeating several times: "Make sure you carry out the rural electrification scheme that we initiated." Deputies on that side of the House realise that people's memories cannot be very much at fault in thinking of matters over a period of three years. Deputies know that what I am saying is correct and that what Deputy Cosgrave says is incorrect. I do not know whether he will come into the House like I did to-day and admit that something he said yesterday was incorrect.

I was talking yesterday about our position. I agree that, so long as we are linked with sterling, whatever we do in this country will have very little effect on the whole sterling area or on the value of sterling outside it. The sterling area is a big area. The turnover of sterling is a phenomenal figure. We are only an infinitesimal part in that scheme of things. Therefore, we cannot help to make the £ more valuable, nor can we, if we dispose of every penny of our external assets, bring about a situation where the £ sterling could be considered to be of less value. All we can do and should do is to think in terms of how we can get more for our exportable goods in order to bring them up to their world price. After all, whether the £ is worth 2.80 dollars or four dollars, a commodity has to be sold at the world price. As your £ or whatever currency you use rises or falls, so does the price you pay for a world commodity rise or fall.

Therefore, what we should do is to try to get the real world price for any goods that we have which outside countries are prepared to buy from us, and we have in this country in to-day's world scheme of things some of the most valuable items for export. We have the food that people need to consume from day to day. We had, however, an agreement which prevented us from selling abroad more than a certain percentage of our exportable goods and in connection with that agreement there was also a maximum price fixed. In the last few years a new situation has developed. America is buying from us certain of our agricultural produce in a very desirable form. We are not shipping live beasts; we are shipping carcase meat. There are, therefore, offals of great value to the community and there is a certain employment content inherent in that particular transaction.

Might I ask to what commodity did the restriction to which the Deputy refers apply?

I shall come to that. Let me finish my line of thought first. I made a mistake yesterday and I want to prevent myself from being drawn into mistakes to-day. We are selling to-day a commodity to America at a very much higher price than would be got for the same commodity across the Channel. It is sold in a form that gives additional employment and provides additional raw materials for ourselves which are much needed. But there was an agreement as to which there was a dispute with regard to its interpretation. That is the agreement to which the Deputy has asked me to refer. There was an agreement with Britain that they were to get 90 per cent. of our cattle exports and that our exports of cattle to other countries should not exceed 10 per cent. It did not matter what the other countries might offer us for the cattle. By reason of this agreement, live cattle definitely were limited in their export to foreign countries other than England so as not to exceed 10 per cent. There was also a difference between the Minister of Food in England and the Minister for Agriculture here on the question of whether this agreement could be interpreted to include carcase meat.

There was some misunderstanding.

Never the slightest.

I was given to understand——

By whom?

I was given to understand that there was. I am not going to tell you by whom.

Deputy Dillon put an interpretation on that agreement so advantageous to the British that it was completely contrary to its terms.

Deputy Briscoe says there was a dispute between the Irish Minister for Agriculture and the British Ministry of Food as to whether the 10 per cent. restricting the total shipments of live cattle comprised meat. I say that there was no such dispute.

There was no dispute because the Deputy gave in to the British in contravention of the obvious terms of the agreement.

There was no such dispute.

You gave them more than they were entitled to.

But there was no dispute.

The Deputy will admit that the agreement with regard to live cattle did contain a clause that we were only permitted by virtue of this agreement to export 10 per cent. of our live cattle elsewhere.

And never succeeded in shipping them despite our best efforts. We could never get the ships to send them.

The agreement was there. When I hear the Deputy say that I have a recollection of the Deputy pleading with this House in pre-1948 days from that very seat not to forget the customer that had supported us for 100 years; that even if the world prices were higher, we should feed these people even at a lower price because of their past purchases. Obviously, with that mentality the Deputy was not going to go out to seek ships to carry the cattle if they were needed.

Who got the ships for the meat?

This agreement existed, and the result was that, even if foreign nations offered twice the price for the cattle, we were hidebound by this agreement. To-day we have reached a stage where we must attempt to do two important things if we want to keep our standard of living unimpaired. Apart from the value of sterling or the purchase price of the £ and the high price of commodities, we must do two things. We must find a market for our goods that will give us the world price. We must increase our production of these items. Then it does not matter to us what the denominator is, what the medium of exchange is.

The fact is that then we will get in goods or the equivalent of goods sufficient currency to pay a price which will not be the high price that it is to-day. We are paying world prices for our imports but we are not getting world prices for our exports. I suggest that when we deal with what is termed our adverse trade balance, bringing with it the dissipation of our foreign assets, the way in which to limit the dissipation of those assets is to increase our exports in value and in quantity and to decrease as far as possible our imports in value and in quantity. We will then be able to get our country into the position where we will both understand and appreciate the sanity there is in any direct effort to reach as soon as possible that state of self-sufficiency which the country should reach.

That is all as clear as mud.

I have heard all kinds of suggestions. At Question Time to-day a Deputy from Mayo wanted the five-year programme to cover telephone installations in country post offices carried out immediately. In his opinion he thought a five-year period too long in which to carry out this work.

Now there are certain Deputies who have been very vocal in relation to our external assets. They want to bring our external assets over here within the next 24 hours, plank them down here——

The Deputy is one of them.

When did I say that?

The Deputy is constantly asserting that we have hundreds of millions of pounds invested abroad and that those hundreds of millions of pounds should be brought over here and put to use here.

That is in reply to attacks made against us because we reduced the total of our sterling assets.

You increased them.

We have said that it is essential to maintain them.

I will not enter into that kind of argument. I am merely answering the Deputy's argument which pre-1948, when he formed his Clann na Poblachta Party, has always been——

That this country suffered from gross under-investment because money was invested abroad instead of being invested here.

And that we had these hundreds of millions of pounds which could have been utilised here.

They should have been utilised here within the last 30 years.

Why were they not utilised in the last three years?

Why were they not utilised here in the last 20 years? Let us do it now.

In the last three years?

Do not cloud the issue.

I am not trying to cloud the issue. I am trying to speak as calmly and as sensibly as I can for the benefit of Deputy Hickey. I am trying to examine this problem and see how it can be solved. Deputy MacBride says: "Let us do it now." What does that mean? It is a very nice phrase, but you cannot do everything now and there are many things you cannot do now.

For over 30 years we have been doing the opposite. Let us reverse that now.

You must find a way of doing it. There has been considerable capital investment here between investments in which the State itself had a part interest and private investments. I can tell the House that one of the disasters of the last three years has been the failure of the Coalition Government to increase the production of cement here.

I will not accept that as true.

It is true.

It is longer than that.

I will tell the Deputy the history of it some time. I hope I will get the opportunity.

We did not want to be throttled by a monopoly that wanted to extort higher rates of profit from the people.

And Deputy Lemass gave the monopoly to them.

I will tell you the whole story and I hope I shall have an opportunity of doing it soon.

Deputy Briscoe should be allowed to speak without interruption.

We have in this country the means in the shape of the materials, the labour, the talent and the people to improve and increase the production of cement, but we have been sending considerable sums of money abroad in order to bring in cement.

Over £2,000,000 in the last two years.

Over £2,000,000 in the last two years. I want to point out that that £2,000,000 has been lost to us. If we had produced that cement within the country that £2,000,000 would have been here turning over and over in some form or another until eventually it went back again and started off in some new venture.

What prevented that being done?

The Tánaiste will tell you that in due course. I am trying to illustrate.

"In due course" are the operative words.

The Deputy can have a present of that. The Deputy, who prides himself on being a great Christian, might keep these jokes for another day.

All I said was: "In due course are the operative words."

Everybody in this House knows I am a Jew. I will not have my religion insulted.

On a point of order. I beg the Deputy to believe that nothing of the kind was present to my mind as a medium of description and I would regard such an interjection as unpardonable and definitely outrageous.

What did the Deputy say?

"In due course are the operative words."

That is what you said.

The Deputy said: "The Tánaiste will deal with that in due course," and I said: "In due course are the operative words."

I am sorry. I misunderstood. I accept that. I hope that before we are very much older we will have the additional output in cement here at home and save the nation the money that is being spent to bring cement in now. We can deal with a number of other commodities in the same way.

You are a long time doing it, though.

From 1932 up to 1948 a great deal of progress was made in the establishment of industries here.

There are too many hands in the pie, though.

I know Deputy Hickey wants everything to be nationalised and everything to be State-owned.

I want no such thing.

Then what does the Deputy mean by "too many hands in the pie?"

I want to see industries under Irish control and their development under Irish control.

I understand the cement factory is under Irish control.

It is part of a cartel.

It is no such thing. It is an Irish industry run on money invested in it by Irish people, and it has no connection whatever with any outside company.

I shall tell the story of cement to-day if I get in.

I am sure the House is looking forward to that. I approach this matter simply and in a manner which I understand. I am not interested in a lot of millions here and a lot of millions there and a lot of accusations here and a lot of accusations there. We must face the situation that confronts us not only internally but also as it affects us externally.

The people in the country want it that way too.

I think if Deputy Briscoe were allowed to talk without interruption it would be much better.

Deputy Briscoe should be permitted to speak without interruption.

Deputy Cosgrave accused us yesterday of having caused the rise in prices. He drew our attention to the rapid increase in the cost of living, particularly during the last four or five months. We never said, as Deputy MacBride did, that we would reduce the cost of living as it then was in 1948 by 30 per cent.

You published an advertisement in relation to the price of butter two days before the election, and you then increased the price of butter a week afterwards.

We did not publish a general statement.

You published a half-page advertisement.

The Deputy published a statement in 1948 to the effect that he would reduce the cost of living as it then was in 1948 by 30 per cent. The Deputy said that despite it being common knowledge that the world situation was such that there was an inevitable tendency for commodities, both raw materials and manufactured goods, to rise in price. If the Deputy had known that the £ was going to go off parity he would have made a fortune.

I would.

Well, I knew and I did not make a fortune. I told this House that the £ was going to be devalued.

That is another story. Did you back your opinion?

Many years ago, when the Deputy was sitting in the seat that he occupies to-night, he told us that the £ was going to be internationally convertible at its parity rate. I told him then that he was talking nonsense, and I was proved to be right. I did not approach it from the point of my own personal well-being.

I would.

I did not approach it from that point of view, but rather from the point of view of what I felt it to be my duty to say as an elected representative to this House. There has been talk about stockpiling. I would like to see the Tánaiste publishing a list of the items which were brought in here, ostensibly for stockpiling. I remember, when the present Leader of the Opposition was Taoiseach, that on the Vote for his Department there was an attempt made at having a sensible approach to a serious situation. I remember saying on that occasion that I approved of the stockpiling of certain items, but not of manufactured garments or nylon stockings. The items I referred to were essential raw materials for housing, large piles of timber, which should be properly stored, and large piles of steel to meet our requirements at home. I would regard the stockpiling of these as a sound approach to the situation, but not of consumable goods, the value of which, as an asset, disappeared the moment they were consumed. I shall probably put down a question some day to the appropriate Minister asking him to indicate the items which were stockpiled.

There they are.

The Deputy has them. He will probably enlighten the House later about them.

You will find even mouse traps on the list.

It would be no harm if there were some rat traps in it.

Mouse traps were discussed seriously for stockpiling.

We will remember that the machinery we had for the establishment of a heavy engineering industry at Inchicore was sold. It was scrapped and sent abroad. What kind of a mentality was behind that? I will not call it sabotage, but it certainly was vandalism from the point of view of the national well-being. Our dollar earning possibilities in Aer Lingus, and the value to us of this heavy engineering industry, all went. Despite that, we are challenged and accused of not being interested in capital investment for reproductive purposes. That is where there is a big difference of opinion between us. I remember an occasion in this House when we had a very detailed and technical discussion —it arose on housing—as to what was above and what was below the line spending as regards capital expenditure, and what was not. We were told on this side of the House to regard all expenditure on housing and hospitalisation as capital expenditure. My view of capital expenditure is that it is money spent on items which are reproductive. Money, for example, spent on the building up of a second addition to our cement production would be regarded by me as capital expenditure. I do not know how many million dollars would be required for that, but such expenditure would be reproductive. I would regard expenditure on the building of houses and hospitals as part capital expenditure. The health of the nation is concerned there. We want to make available for our people good houses and good hospitals, so that they will be healthy. Capital expenditure, in that sense, would be reproductive because it would ensure that our people would be strong and healthy and able to work.

And the acquiring of a number of ships.

I am sure the Deputy read in the last few days of the wonderful development that has taken place in the life of the nation through the establishment of an Irish marine service, which is now going to be further augmented and is to be brought as near as possible to meeting our full requirement. Surely there is nothing wrong in that?

No. It is a long time ago since I advocated it.

I will tell the Deputy a lot about it some time.

That was set up under the administration of Fianna Fáil. We know the amount of good work that was done in the building up of that particular organisation. If it were not for those ships we might have found ourselves very much worse off than we were during the war years.

Hear, hear!

I am glad the Deputy admits that. I am sure that the Tánaiste will be successful in bringing that scheme to the full fruition which he desires. It will be a good thing for the nation. Then Deputy Dillon will be able to ship our cattle whenever we like, and to where we like, on our own ships.

We want to see agriculture developed from the point of view not only of meeting our own requirements but of enabling us to have a surplus of valuable agricultural produce for export. We also want to bring the country back to the position in which it will be as self-sufficient as possible in the matter of wheat. I do not know how many millions of dollars were spent on the importation of wheat, but we all know that it is a very difficult thing to get dollars to-day. I do not think it is anybody's wish that this country should ever become a mendicant nation, depending on any rich nation to give us loans or grants to buy our daily bread. Surely we should be in a position to buy our daily bread ourselves.

Deputy Cosgrave spoke about butter, and Deputy MacBride drew my attention to the 2d. on butter. I do not know if it will ever be possible to get certain Deputies to understand certain simple things. I believe there are certain Deputies on the opposite side of the House of average intelligence, some with far greater intelligence than I can boast of. Therefore, when they pretend that they do not understand simple things, I sit in amazement and wonder. Fianna Fáil believed at one time, rightly or wrongly, but they believed, that after the conclusion of the war, with the uncertainty of supplies and the rise in prices that took place, that, unless some provision was made to protect the people by enabling them to get a certain rationed amount of essential commodities at a subsidised price, great hardship would follow. Therefore subsidies were introduced. Subsidies were going to be abolished at one time by the inter-Party Government and it was the inter-Party Government which introduced what I described then and what I now describe as a Government black market in some of these commodities when they became more readily available.

Has not that been adopted by the present Government?

It was introduced by the Coalition Government and, as far as I am concerned, I hope our Government will find a way of abolishing it. I am not one of those who say that it can be done now.

You say that now. You would have said something different six months ago.

It would not be safe to do it now.

Apparently the Deputy has digested mentally what I said before because he now realises there are certain things you cannot do now, and I am grateful I have one convert anyhow. The Deputy talked about butter. The situation in which our country had found itself was that, although mainly an agricultural country, we had our milk supply so reduced that we had to import butter from abroad. It was obvious that something had to be done to increase the production of milk so that more milk would be available for butter production. It is again a matter of economics. You cannot expect the farming community to exist continually in uneconomic circumstances. Surely they are as much entitled to secure the full value of the goods they produce as anybody else. Consequently, an increase of 1d. per gallon was recently given to the milk producers and 2d. a lb. was put on the butter, but the public were not asked to pay it in the rationed butter. Deputy MacBride said yesterday that that was putting on the back of the community an amount of money of some £400,000 to £600,000 a year which will have to be paid from taxation. What does the Deputy mean by that?

That is what the Minister for Agriculture said—half of it is going on to subsidy and the other half is passed directly on to the consumer.

Which do you object to?

If you found it necessary to give an increase, I think, in the present situation, you should have increased the subsidy in order not to increase prices at a time when prices were already rising all round.

The Deputy was talking about his objections to the taxation that would result from this.

The fact is, you published an advertisement saying that you would not put up the price of butter.

I published an advertisement?

Your Party published an advertisement.

Perhaps the Deputy will produce it here.

I have it.

The Deputy must be allowed to make his speech.

I do not remember seeing it.

There was a good-looking girl with pencil and notebook——

That was not in it.

Yes, it was. There is no doubt about that.

Deputy Cosgrave yesterday, in addition to taking credit for rural electrification, took credit for turf development and for drainage. He said we must continue these things; we must not abandon them. Did anyone ever hear such codology? The Rural Electrification Act was passed by this Government, by Fianna Fáil, before 1948.

In regard to turf development from 1932 onwards we made strenuous efforts to make the people turf-minded with a view to the development of turf as a fuel ultimately, so that more people would buy and burn it. I remember Deputy Dillon upbraiding us as if we were fit to go around the world as a comedy set from a circus shouting "turf, turf." I remember that every effort was made to get the people sufficiently turf-minded and we were abused for supporting the present institutions for developing turf. They certainly were not set up by the Coalition Government. They were found there when they took office and they are still there. I can assure the Deputies opposite that turf development in the sense and to the extent we wanted to reach will be attempted and continued.

As regards drainage, who was it brought in that big Drainage Bill to make the drainage we are now talking about possible? Deputy Dillon, who is a man who talks with a tone of assertion, positive of his knowledge, and a few of his colleagues, particularly the ex-Minister for Lands, Deputy Blowick, tried to convince us to-day that a survey meant drainage. I do not know where they get their interpretations of ordinary words from. In my opinion, a survey is one thing and drainage is another thing but those on the opposite side of the House were trying to suggest during questions to-day that when a promise was made for a survey, it was in fact a promise for drainage. That is what I call codology. But it has not been misunderstood by the public. The public know that it is codology and it would be far better for those Deputies to take a serious view of a serious situation and to try to be as constructive as they can in the state of things as they are.

We have large-scale Government expenditure before us on housing, hospitalisation, drainage and many other things. The State will have to find the necessary capital from time to time. A question on the Order Paper yesterday brought forth the answer that up to the time of the change of Government this year some £16,000,000 of the Marshall Aid money had been spent and that since the change of Government in the last four months £18,000,000 had been spent—proof of the extravagance of this Government.

Hear, hear!

Deputy Sweetman says "Hear, hear!" Surely Deputy Sweetman does not think for one moment that that money was used for anything other than commitments? Does the Deputy suggest that when his Government left office there was not a single State debt to be met or loan to be redeemed?

It was used for the redemption of debt instead of for development.

Now I understand it. Deputy Cosgrave said yesterday that £18,000,000 had been spent extravagantly by Fianna Fáil. Now Deputy Sweetman says it was used to redeem debt. It was a question of what is a good financial thing to do. If you have a debt you must meet it or you must fund it and you must pay interest on it. It might have been far better to have paid that debt and save the interest charges that would accrue if you had not paid it. Maybe the people to whom the money was due needed it. Maybe they were entitled to get it paid. I intend to ask a question for next week as to exactly how that £18,000,000 was spent.

I know that a certain amount of it had to go to Córas Iompair Éireann. I know that they needed some £1,500,000 to £2,000,000. When Deputy Morrissey was Minister for Industry and Commerce, I remember him saying here that Córas Iompair Éireann would not need £1,000,000 when he had two or three years in office.

To save the Deputy from correcting himself again, may I ask what authority the Deputy has for saying that £1,500,000 of that £18,000,000 he mentions was paid to Córas Iompair Éireann?

I said "maybe".

There was no estimate. There was nothing in the Woods and Forests Account.

I do not want to score any point at all.

Go ahead and score if you wish.

If the Deputy wants his full statement it stands in the official records and he can read it.

The records are available and can be looked at in case somebody suggests that I have corrected them. I have said that it was attempted to suggest that the £18,000,000 I have already mentioned had been extravagantly spent by Fianna Fáil in the last four months and I said that I was anxious to find out for what purpose it had been used. I repeat that. I said, further, for Deputy Morrissey's benefit, that I intended to put a question down for answer with a view to finding out exactly on what this money had been spent and what it had been used to meet. I said "maybe", and I say again "maybe" there is a deficit of £1,500,000 to be met in respect of Córas Iompair Éireann, but the Deputy's suggestion was that there was no deficit in the running of the company.

Stand over your statement now.

I am standing over that statement. I would relate it to the Deputy's optimistic promise when he was sitting here and discussing the first deficit that he had to meet——

Four million pounds.

——when he treated the House to the spectacle of Córas Iompair Éireann not being able to pay wages or meet their other commitments. Do they not still want £1,500,000?

After the £4,000,000 you paid?

I never had £4,000,000 in my possession to pay to anybody, and I never will have. Perhaps, you are referring to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and suggesting that he had £4,000,000. When we use the word "you" we generally mean the Chair. What I am trying to say is that we have got to approach this matter from a sensible point of view.

I mean to, if I am allowed. We must, first of all, limit as far as possible the importation of non-essential goods and goods which can be produced here. We must design as fast as possible, either by private enterprise or through State aid, means of increasing exports and limiting the import of consumable goods by their production here. We must try then to increase our productivity and to sell our goods at the best price on offer. Only in that way can we bring our adverse trade balance to a position where it can be controlled and to a point where we will not be throwing the responsibility for the position that has arisen—increased expenditure for less goods—from one to the other, because that is what has been happening. When Deputy Dillon rises to speak I know that he is going to try to impress on the House that under his administration in the Department of Agriculture exports went up in pounds, shillings and pence, but he will not be able to say that the quantity went up accordingly, for it is the quantity of production that counts not the fictitious argument that because certain goods became more valuable less were exported for more money.

It is the volume which counts.

Yes, it is the volume which counts and when you export it is the volume plus world prices which counts.

I do not agree with producing more goods and selling them for less. I do not agree with the Deputy's approach to the selling of eggs—that you will get more money if you produce more eggs. When the poor, unfortunate farmer produced more eggs he discovered that instead of getting 2/6, 2/9 or whatever the ruling price was, he got less per dozen because he was getting more in his turnover. I would not subscribe to that theory for a split second, but such has been Deputy Dillon's approach to eggs, beef, and every single commodity to which he had to give any consideration or thought during the whole three years of his administration. We have to approach this from a patriotic point of view. We must not consider what is best for our cupboards but what is best for us. Deputy Dillon may bless himself if he wishes. A patriotic approach in the affairs of State is necessary when it concerns economy. The Deputy who spoke in this House and asked the people to join the British Army now crosses himself publicly. In my opinion, he is giving scandal by his behaviour. I say to the Deputy and to every Deputy who believes in an increased turnover in volume without an increased turnover in money that it is not going to get us anywhere. We have got to get the best available price for our goods— the ruling world price. We have got to try and increase production and so benefit ourselves. We know that in relation to imports, exports and re-exports all these figures and statistics do not mean anything except when related to each other. I want to say that I have not been at all impressed by the so-called financial experts who were dealing with matters beyond their comprehension and trying to give explanations without any understanding of the whole situation. Deputy Hickey will agree with me in this matter.

I will not agree with you, because you have created an unhealthy fear as a result of what you have said.

Deputy Hickey will agree with me on what I am going to say; money is an international force. We cannot solve our own money problem or the world's money problems, but we can solve our own economy and we can try to relegate money to where it belongs, as the medium with which we can do business with other people.

Let us do it.

That is what I am trying to tell the House.

Do not be raising clouds.

We kept the Central Bank in its place.

You reappointed the board. That is all you did.

All I can say is that very little, if any, proof has been given to the House of the creation of industries within the last three years to promote the production in this country of consumer goods, which are being imported at present. I hope that a great deal will be done in that matter from now on, and that we shall rapidly begin to understand what we all believe we understand, from the point of view of putting our economy on a basis on which it can be controlled for the best interests of all our people, not for sectional interests or interests abroad. Deputy MacBride wants us to repatriate our foreign investments. That is an expression which the Deputy has coined.

Yes, and utilise them for our own productive purposes instead of leaving them to the British Government to promote capital development over there.

When we have an asset in the shape of money for which immediate use cannot be found, probably the right thing to do is to arrange to have it earn an income for us until such time as it can be brought back for use on a profitable basis here. While it may not bring an income in the shape of interest or dividends, it will certainly bring a benefit to the community in that it will make goods, which we need from abroad, more readily available for our people. The management of these foreign investments must be carried out with a sense of wisdom and a sense of proportion. You cannot repatriate all your foreign investments at once and convert them into a form of expenditure which, after a few years, will mean nothing to you. The income from these investments will then have disappeared and you will probably have very little to show for the expenditure to which they were devoted. It must be done in a serious fashion; you cannot repatriate your capital until you have decided what you are going to do with it.

We have heard some talk of the £18,000,000 of Marshall Aid disposed of by this Government. Does Deputy MacBride realise that there was a sum of £36,000,000 borrowed by the Coalition Government and that that meant an additional burden of taxation on the community in the sense that interest charges and a sinking fund had to be provided for it? According to the last figure which I saw under that heading, our commitments had risen from £4,000,000 a year to £6,000,000 a year.

Did your Minister not approve of the entry of Ireland into Marshall Aid?

I am not talking of Marshall Aid. I was talking of the £36,000,000 loans floated by the last Government.

You mean Marshall Aid.

Marshall Aid may have been used to an extent but the State floated a loan, issued a prospectus and asked the people to subscribe to it. For that loan, as I have said, interest charges and a sinking fund had to be provided. The figure under that heading has risen in the last three years from an annual charge of £4,000,000 to an annual charge of £6,000,000.

It is time something should be done about that too.

That is the point. Deputy Hickey wants us to get money for which there will be no interest charged. I do not know who is going to lend his money to us unless he gets some benefit for it. I do not know how you are going to induce people to sell their investments in England which bring them in an income on which they live and lend the proceeds to you without any interest. Surely that is not an attitude to which we can subscribe. Deputy Hickey remembers one member of this House who talked about printing money.

I never heard of any such thing.

The Deputy heard Deputy Flanagan give expression to that idea or perhaps he was not here then. Deputy Flanagan believed that money could be printed and that the security or the backing for it meant nothing. I do not believe that is the approach of most people in this House to the problem but having listened to and read the speeches on this Bill and the criticism of the Central Bank I do say that we are getting away from a realistic approach to the problem. Some people believe that we should break the link with sterling. I believe that we should have our currency anchored to some sort of backing not necessarily British. I have always believed that if we had found ways and means of doing it, we would have been so many millions the richer because we lost millions of pounds, not so much by devaluation, as by a series of repudiations by the British Government. First of all, they went off the gold standard and that was followed by a series of devaluations—first one of four dollars to the £ and finally one of 2.80 dollars to the £

I did hope that, in the course of time, we would try to acquire and build up, either in the shape of foreign currency or some internationally saleable commodity, added to our productive capacity, something to which we could anchor our currency which in any emergency would be regarded as solvent. This is a problem that should have been tackled a long time ago and that should be considered now, but I do not subscribe to the idea that if you break the link with sterling you can produce your own money ad lib. Less than a matter of two years ago, when there was a Bill introduced to substitute cupro nickel for silver in our coinage, I suggested that, instead of selling the silver, it should be kept here as something of value which might form some anchorage for our currency. As it is, it will be melted and sold as silver bullion for £2,000,000 worth of paper notes. The £2,000,000 paper notes will be consumed in goodness knows how short a time. We had at one time a certain amount of gold as backing. I remember when we had under the first Currency Commission an arrangement whereby £5,000,000 in gold was deposited in the Bank of England. Somebody pointed out that that was very foolish because the gold produced no interest and that if we sold the gold for £5,000,000 and bought £5,000,000 worth in script, it would be interest-bearing. That was done, and in a very short period of time sterling went off the gold standard.

In addition to that, at one stage I understand we actually bought American securities in dollars but we were advised by our financial experts that the dollar was not secure currency and they were all rushed back into sterling.

It happened in your time but not in ours.

It happened in yours.

Yes, it did.

I do not know on whose advice the Government acts in financial matters. I do not know the status or the stature of the so-called experts to whom the Deputy refers. I am expressing my own opinion. I believe it would be a good thing for this country not to be dragged into this maelstrom of international currency or sterling currency problems. I believe it would have been a good thing if we had been able to devise some means of having our own independent currency which would not have been affected by some other country's liabilities or commitments but only by our own. I hope that some day those Deputies who are concerned about this matter may be able to exchange views, apart from political differences or other differences.

In conclusion, may I say that some of us may have the vice by inheritance of a little understanding of this problem and others of us may have the virtue of complete ignorance of it?

I have listened for close on two hours to Deputy Briscoe.

Oh, no; one hour—5 to 6.

Deputy Briscoe began his speech last night and went on to-day. I am going to deal only with one item mentioned by Deputy Briscoe because he invited me, and he has not extended the customary courtesy of waiting to hear me, to reply. He spoke of the cement industry and of its establishment as an Irish industry 100 per cent. and, secondly, of the failure of the inter-Party Government to secure its expansion during the last three years, so that the total domestic requirements of cement might be produced in this country.

The cement company was established in this country under legislation enacted about 1935 or 1936. That legislation was recommended to this Parliament on the ground that unless we had a domestic Irish cement industry we would become the victims of the Danish Cement Cartel which maintains its headquarters in Copenhagen, and which has intimate relations with Blue Circle and Red Triangle in Great Britain. It was pointed out to the Government of that day that up to that hour cement was sold cheaper in Ireland than in any other country in Europe, for the simple reason that the cartel had never been able to grip this country for, whenever it sought to do so, cement came in from Spain and cement came in from Poland, neither of which countries belonged to the cartel.

That is right.

Therefore, the cartel kept the price of cement in Ireland lower than in any other country in Europe——

That is right.

——so as to ensure that the trade connection would not go off to Spain or Poland. The present Tánaiste ridiculed that story. It made him laugh to think that Irish Cement Limited would have any contact with the Danish Cement Cartel, and so Oireachtas Éireann passed the legislation, and the company was established. Imports of cement from any source were prohibited unless they were brought in by Irish Cement Limited. The nation awaited the first meeting of the board of directors of Irish Cement Limited, and it took place in Dublin. The directors met, but the chair at the top of the table was vacant, and when the Irish directors had been assembled the door was opened and the chairman of Irish Cement Limited was introduced to them. Do you know what his name was? Nils Jensen, from Copenhagen, and he is still the chairman of Irish Cement Limited.

Is not it a remarkable coincidence that he is widely reputed to be familiar with the Danish Cement Cartel? Is not it an astonishing coincidence that the controlling director of the Danish Cement Cartel has the same name, Nils Jensen? I invite the absent Deputy Briscoe to send the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs on another odyssey through Europe to find out if these two gentlemen have ever met each other or could it be that they are the same man?

Behold what the cartel had never succeeded in doing, erecting in Ireland an enclave for themselves, within which they could get the price they demanded for cement, they tricked Oireachtas Éireann to do it. It was our legislation which forbade cement to come to Ireland from any part of Europe unless it was brought in through Irish Cement Limited, and the chairman was Nils Jensen. An Irish company!

That is not the end of the story. Now I come to Part II. We were not in office three months until the question of increased cement supplies came forward for consideration, and Cement Limited were urged either to build a new factory or to extend Limerick and Drogheda or to do both, whichever their technical advisers, having surveyed the situation with the Department of Health, the Department of Local Government and the Department of Industry and Commerce, might consider to be the probable demand. I well remember the case being made that they ought to take the highest forecast, because, in the last analysis, should an unsaleable surplus ever manifest itself from our own production, there is not any reason why it should not be turned to the purpose of making a great road system in the years after the war if depression or unemployment threatened to become a national problem.

A practical proposition.

Do you know the reply we got from Cement Limited? Remember, they are a monopoly; no man in Ireland can buy a bag of cement except through them. Do you know the reply we got from them? We were told that they had made a deal with the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, that if they increased their output he would authorise them to distribute to their shareholders 10 per cent.

Not if they increased their output. That was the original deal.

Will the Minister not listen? My recollection is that our attitude to Cement Limited was that we were not prepared to chop logic with Cement Limited about whatever negotiations or discussions they had with Deputy Lemass who, doubtless, had excellent reasons for the attitude adopted by him; that whatever the considerations were that influenced his mind to that end, they did not influence ours; and that we were of opinion that 8 per cent. was plenty for a monopoly to earn on the production of a commodity which was as necessary in many spheres of our national life as bread was to the poor—houses, hospitals, buildings of every sort, kind and description—and we said to them——

You agreed to their proposals. That was announced in the Dáil.

I am going to tell this story if I have to stand here for three weeks.

All we want is the truth.

You are not getting it now.

I will seek correction when the Minister wants to close. We pointed out that it was a monopoly and that a powerful case could be made for the transfer of a monopoly of that kind to the State.

Hear, hear!

The Deputy is going to get a shock because here is what they told us then: "Transfer it to the State and if we abstract from Cement Limited its Scandinavian employees you have not got Irish key-men fit to run it." Irish Cement Limited have been operating in this country for 16 years under a monopoly created by Oireachtas Éireann—I admit, or so the Tánaiste told us at the time, having given an undertaking that it was necessary to bring in Scandinavian technicians for the higher jobs in the factories but only for so long as it was necessary to keep them there for the training of Irish personnel. Sixteen years! I admit that later the Government of Ireland found itself in the dilemma that its bluff was called——

That is not true.

——for we could not run the cement factory with the Irish personnel.

Nonsense. Of course we could run it.

Is it not a strange thing that in an Irish industry, founded by a Statute of this Oireachtas, the chairman comes from Copenhagen, the managing director was not born in Blackrock, and the higher executive in each of the individual factories on the technical side——

Why were we not told that at the time? Why was that information concealed from us? Why were we not told that when we were a Government?

Who is "we"?

The inter-Party Government three years ago. Why was this kept until now? Why were we not told this before?

Is the Deputy labouring under the delusion that he was a member of the Cabinet?

God forbid.

Did the coalition Government not agree to the cement company's proposals and was that not announced in the Dáil by Deputy Morrissey? Is that true or is it not?

The Deputy is barking up the wrong tree if he thinks he can deflect me by a hair-breadth.

Is it true?

I well remember that my colleague, the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, brought before us a variety of proposals so as to get the capacity increased and to avoid allowing Cement Limited to force him into the position of becoming a consenting party to a rate of profit which he felt was excessive for a monopoly to enjoy.

So it is, too.

But remember that during all this period of negotiation we were not negotiating from strength. We had to get cement to carry on the housing programme. We found that if we did not get it through the membership of Cement Limited, no matter where we went to buy it difficulties arose——

Nonsense.

——but that if Irish Cement Limited, and the board of that company went to buy, the cargoes came floating in the main.

Did you try to get it anywhere else?

Will Deputy Morrissey agree with that?

Yes. It was by his authority.

He is keeping his head in his hands.

Deputy Morrissey knows perfectly well that what I am saying is true. All Deputy Morrissey's colleagues know the difficulties that he had to contend with in dealing with these people and the misrepresentations which his efforts to protect our Irish people from exploitation are open to now and in the future. The fact is that when Irish Cement Limited went to buy the cement, the galleons came floating home and they told us what it cost them. That cost had to be spread over the price of Irish cement and foreign cement in order to keep the price of cement anywhere within the reach of the people at all. There was a commission on the purchase of that cement.

There was not.

I understood there was——

No profits.

——for the agent who purchased it abroad on behalf of Cement Limited.

That is a different point.

I know there was no profit by Cement Limited as a company in Ireland. The price of the cement as it arrived in the property of Cement Limited in Ireland was amalgamated with the price of Irish cement.

Oh, I see.

I am not talking of that. Somewhere abroad whence that cement came one man met another and said: "I want to buy a parcel of cement." The other man said: "I have got one to sell." One man bought and the other man sold. I would like to know —I never found out. I wonder if anyone ever will—was there a profit on that transaction and if there was, who was enriched thereby?

Joe Stalin.

That is the story of this man.

Oh no, do not stop there. Did the Government agree to the cement company's plans?

I do not know.

Was the Dáil told?

I do not know.

Then, Deputies can read the rest of the story in the Official Report.

Tell us of the alternative plans that came along subsquently which stopped the cement company's plans going ahead.

The only thing that stopped the cement company was we did not let them get 10 per cent.

After it had been announced to the Dáil what stopped them going ahead again?

The prospect of competition.

Another plan.

I really forgot that end of the story. Heavens, let me tell that story! I remember that, finally, the question was whether we were going to go on receiving the cement coming in through the North Wall or there was an end going to be made of the matter. I think the Minister was conceding the 10 per cent. I do not think he enjoyed it.

That was promised in the letter written by Mr. Lemass.

My recollection is that the pressure of demand seemed to us to make it necessary to concede but what happened? You would have expected that Cement Limited would have tried to make up lost time. This was a national company.

They were not told about it.

And that everything would be done to expedite expansion of production. At that stage a Belgian company asked: "May we build a cement factory?"

They did not. That was not the proposition. Tell the truth.

I hope we will get the truth.

The answer was "certainly" and the Belgian company started to ask immediately whether any guarantees would be given them.

Their strongest weapon was Mr. Lemass's letter.

Both the Minister and my colleague, Deputy Morrissey, can intervene in this debate subsequently. I want to tell the story in my own way. Was there a proposal that they should get guarantees? They were told they would get no guarantees. The moment it was suggested that everyone else would be allowed to manufacture cement in Ireland, Irish cement Limited got into convulsions. I think they were still in convulsions.

They were not, about that scheme.

I seem to recollect that although it was not confirmed.

Perfectly true.

There is one interesting fact connected with the industry. One man met another who intended to develop industry in Ireland and said to the second party to keep clear that they could not be depended on; that you could not get your whack in that country. Another man got a message not to produce cement in Ireland or somebody would break his neck. I was happy to send back a message, or get it sent back, telling him that if there was neck-breaking it would not be he who would do the breaking but it might be his neck.

There is nothing about that in the records I can tell you.

No, I confess that. I put that in because it was put in issue by Deputy Briscoe and because it did me good to get it off my chest.

What I want to talk about—and I am sorry the Tánaiste is gone—is the MacEntee-Lemass racket that is proceeding in this country since Oireachtas Éireann adjourned last July. I think the time has come to stop being mealy-mouthed about this business.

And about everything else as well.

I am going to tell the people of this country, through the medium of our own Parliament, what is common knowledge in the corridors of Leinster House and which it has not been deemed expedient to let people know. The whole purpose of this racket, designed to present our country to the world abroad as a silly, bankrupt hulk to the great detriment of the ordinary people, was the prologue to a plan operated by the Tánaiste, Deputy Lemass, and the Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee, to ensure that when the Taoiseach, Mr. de Valera, retired from his present position, Mr. Lemass and not Mr. Aiken would succeed him.

It is common knowledge in the corridors of this House that the Taoiseach contemplates early retirement from public life. It is common knowledge in the corridors of this House that the Fianna Fáil Party is internally split and that Deputy Lemass claims the succession to the leadership, and that that claim is contested by Deputy Aiken. It is common knowledge that, when the present Government was formed, Deputy MacEntee and Deputy Ryan told the Taoiseach that they did not intend to remain in public life, and only accepted their portfolios as stopgaps until such time as he had time to reconstitute his Government. I have every sympathy with Deputy MacEntee in that he has given 15 long years to the public service, and the Government having got themselves re-established, he has to throw up his secular occupation for the second time for an income of £1,500 a year, and then, perhaps, in two or three years' time struggle to rehabilitate himself again.

I think the general circumstances in respect of Deputy MacEntee and Deputy Ryan make it evident that they do intend to retire. I now allege that Deputy MacEntee undertook to help Deputy Lemass to that legitimate ambition. It is a legitimate ambition for a young and energetic man like Deputy Lemass, with 20 years' experience in the public life of this country, to aspire to the first place as Premier. There is nothing shameful or degrading in that, but it is a shocking thing that, in the course of political manoeuvring for the purpose of getting a build-up as a potential deliverer of this country, the little people all over this country, who want nothing but freedom to earn their livings, should be prejudiced and injured because it is necessary that this game be played out within the Fianna Fáil Party.

The plan was simple. As soon as the parliamentary recess came, there was to be a succession of speeches, carefully spaced, suggesting, in an oversimplified way, imminent ruin, and neatly interlarded with these there were to be chosen occasions for the Tánaiste to appear and say: "Yes, there is a crisis. Things are pretty bad. but we will pull through," and everyone went around saying: "Thanks be to God, we have Seán Lemass." Then, when Seán Lemass was securely and honourably established in the position of Taoiseach, there would be at his service a man of long experience in public finance, in private finance, ordinary mercantile and professional finance, a man of surpassing integrity and a man with a wide knowledge of business affairs. Who could be a more suitable representative of the Government on the 12 or 15 Government companies which operate various enterprises in this country and which require the services of such a widely-experienced man as Deputy MacEntee would be if he retired from ministerial responsibility and returned to the practice of his private profession, than Deputy MacEntee? I see nothing dishonourable in a man aspiring to continue to serve the public interest in a new sphere on withdrawing from the rough-and-tumble of public life, to which he, God knows, has made ample contribution. Many Deputies sometimes think that what I tell them is far-fetched. They often come to discover later on that it was surprisingly true. Remember that it is only three months since I warned this House that, if they let the Taoiseach tamper with the record——

Is the Deputy not wandering a little?

If there are those who doubt what I tell them to-day, let them remember their doubts of three months ago and the confirmation we got to-day. This is another forecast. The whole of this campaign was started for that purpose, and it was skilfully deployed, until, at the psychological moment, the Minister for Finance dropped a brick—and it is the father and mother of a brick. This whole campaign was built up to coincide with the annual issue of the report of the Central Bank. The fundamental difference between the two documents mentioned in the amendment tabled by the Leader of the Opposition is that the report of the Central Bank is the work of a disinterested and high-minded public servant. You may hate the economic philosophy he holds and you may reject every economic conclusion he reaches, but you can see in his report the cold, unswerving resolution to record the truth as he sees it, whatever the unpopularity involved thereby and whatever the difficulty created for himself thereby. Having undertaken a duty, he will do no less than he himself regards as adequate, and, God knows, he has done it; but it would be a poor Oireachtas and a poor country that would not correctly value the services of that kind of man. He is very rare— the man who is aptly described in a poetical title as the man who is always no man's man.

I like to remember that when the end of his period of office came a year or 18 months ago, the Government of which I was a member restored to him the position which it might, with perfect propriety, have allowed to pass to another. I like to think that it was the Government of which I was a member which put back in that position an authority with whose integrity we were so familiar that we knew that, for the duration of our Government, we would annually contend with blistering criticism in the field of pure economics, blistering criticism from a high-principled public servant, criticism which had to be argued out with our people, and no honest Government need fear the consequences.

Adulation from a creature of the Executive would be a real menace to freedom in this country, and I venture to swear that Deputies will agree with me that the probability of any living creature receiving adulation from the present chairman of the Central Bank is a contingency so remote that no rational Government would seriously reckon with it. But far different was the White Paper, and that was the brick that was dropped. I wonder does Deputy Lynch, the Parliamentary Secretary, who now so graciously occupies the Front Bench, attend meetings of the Government?

Mr. Lynch

Sometimes.

I am going to do a little speculation as to the fate of that White Paper. I suggest that what happened was this: the material that was accumulated in the Department of Finance, by the direction of Deputy Costello when he was Taoiseach, was produced to the present Minister for Finance when he asked for it. He must have been told that the officers of Finance and Industry and Commerce and other high State officials had been charged with the task of ceaseless vigilance for the last nine months, to discern and report to the Executive the first symptom of an inflationary trend. I suggest that Deputy MacEntee—who is a vain little man—thought Deputy Lemass was getting too much of the limelight. Deputy Lemass, being a master of strategy, said: "Let our apotheosis come with the Report of the Central Bank; they will start pegging rocks at the Report of the Central Bank, and when the whole Front Government Bench is piled high with their rocks, I will climb out of the rock pile and say: ‘I agree with you, boys,' and watch them collapse."

No. Where was the place for Sancho Panza in that picture, if Deputy Lemass was to have the rôle of Don Quixote? But Sancho Panza was determined to be there, donkey and all; and when he got the material in his Department it was not very helpful, because it all seemed to say the very reverse of what he wanted it to tell. I could nearly go through that document and pick out the paragraphs he wrote and he inserted and show this Dáil the balance which came from the unwilling hands of certain officers of the Department of Finance, who constitutionally live in the shadow of the terror of imminent national ruin, and who were delighted in their hearts but consternated in their minds to discover that the country that ought to have gone smash had not gone smash, that the country they always believed God had ordained to be poor and its people living hard, had managed to lift itself up a bit by its own boot straps and was finding it fun. In their hearts they were as glad as we were, but in their heads they felt that something had gone wrong, because all their fundamental beliefs persuaded them that the nation ought to have been running down, getting blowzy and showing all the signs of early dissolution.

To their amazement, it appeared to be getting young and going places. But they preserved the apprehension that every corner we turned would have a precipice before it, and they were exhausted wrapping themselves in bandages, urging us to insulate everyone else against the precipice about to come; only to discover to their astonishment that it was not coming. When they found these facts, even though they conflicted with the prophecies that had been so confidently made—true to the great tradition of the Civil Service of this country, the facts were reported to the Government of which I was a member and there was no attempt to make them different from what they were found to be, no attempt to conceal that the facts as they were did not confirm the best advice that we had been given and had chosen, after careful consideration, to ignore. That was the state when we left Upper Merrion Street. This is what Fianna Fáil has made of it—not Fianna Fáil, but Deputy MacEntee.

The Minister for Finance.

Yes. I wonder was the Parliamentary Secretary, at the meeting of the Government, affrightened when that was circulated for the information of the Government. The Taoiseach was in Zürich. The Tánaiste presided at the meeting. Was there a row? Did the Tánaiste say to the Minister for Finance: "For God's sake, don't circulate that thing; did you not see the grand article I got written in our domestic Pravda on the Central Bank's Report? Let them bite on that—then I will come out from the rock pile and say, ‘Me, too’, and then they are sunk, because I do the Annie Oakley all over again, just as after the general election we fought and were beaten on the 1948 Fianna Fáil programme and went into Dáil Éireann, invoked the busted flush, four diamonds and a bleeding heart, and it is now straight open at both ends. Incidentally, I would remind them it is a very much more difficult hand to fill, and publish again in Pravda the 15-point programme. I thought of suing them for copyright, but it had this distinction—it was the inter-Party programme, with Annie Oakley's addition: ‘Anything they can do, we can do better.’”

I wonder if Deputy Lynch was present when the Tánaiste counselled prudence and restraint. The Minister for Finance reminded the Tánaiste that it was not by the authority of the Government the White Paper was issued by the Minister for Finance, but by the authority inherent in the Minister, and it was presented, not by the Government to the House, but by the Minister for Finance. Then there was a compromise and someone said: "Well, look, let us leave it till the chief comes back", and the Minister for Finance said that he would pay them the courtesy—no more than that —of holding it up until the following Tuesday. He did not tell them then that he had not foreseen this difficulty and on his way into the meeting had already passed out copies to the Press. But the political correspondents of this country are, as every public man has reason to know, pillars of discretion; and nothing happened once the Minister for Finance told them that the document was not for publication until the following Monday, I think. Then there came a hasty message to the same parliamentary correspondents, saying: "Hold everything; it is not now for Monday—it might be for Tuesday, but it will be for Wednesday."

Then a series of incidents transpired and resulted in the cat getting out of the bag and the Minister for Finance had to ring up the Tánaiste and say: "I promised to keep the cat in the bag until the Chief came home and there was a meeting on Tuesday, but the blooming animal got out through the bottom; I did not want to sanction the publication until I told the boys that, despite my undertaking last Friday not to publish until the Government had met on Tuesday, it has got out in spite of me." But he would have added: "Remember, I am the Minister for Finance and I have the right to do it." And then he dropped the brick—and, oh, is this a brick!

I want to put this straight at issue. The case has been made in the country by Deputies like Deputy Briscoe and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs —oh, what a glorious odyssey through Europe he had with its culmination in Belgium incognito. I wonder did he wear a beard to deceive the natives when he crossed the border into Belgium? One could picture the multitudes assembled at the news that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs would pass this way, and then a stooped and limping bearded figure——

The Deputy is travelling further than the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Oh, no, I am only putting the beard on. I will go through his speech, I warn you. Let us return. I want to put this in issue. The case is made that this country is in grave economic distress, that it is unique in Europe in its trade position and that fiscally and in the sphere of international trade, radical and desperate measures are urgently required. I want these words taken note of. On the 14th June, when our Government was last seized of information, with the sole exception of the United States of America, there was no country in the world whose economic circumstances were as good as Ireland's. That is the first proposition.

I stake my name on it. There was no country in the world, the United States included, whose people had a happier or a better life than our people in their own country. There was no country in the world which was a free democracy, which had the immense privilege that the Government of which I was a member enjoyed on behalf of the people of using the resources of our people to make their own country a better home to live in. while others were constrained to use their resources to build a citadel within which they might defend themselves against the pending attack of the Cominform.

Sometimes, when I hear people in this House sneering at the adversities of Great Britain, of France or of other countries that stand between us and the Iron Curtain rolling forward from the East, I am ashamed. While we are entitled to rejoice in the opportunity to use our resources for construction, we should not have the indecency to sneer and gibe at neighbours who are using the same resources from their store not to feed and house their people, but to defend their freedom, when we know that nolens volens our freedom will last as long as theirs, not an hour longer and—bad as they have been in the past—not an hour less. Can you imagine the madness of a Government who are heirs to that opportunity belittling it, when they see the Government of the United Kingdom pouring out its wealth on defence, and yet telling their people that there is nothing but austerity ahead?

When our travelling polyglot Minister for Posts and Telegraphs comes back from Copenhagen where he went to read a circular that has been in the library of Dáil Éireann for the last three months—an the astonishing things is that when he got to Copenhagen he read it in an English translation and travelled home to tell us, not that we could read it in the library, but that if we were as fortunate as he and had been in Copenhagen we would learn (column 594) that in 1948:—

"The Danish Government owed very large sums of money to the Swedish Government, the Dutch Government and the Swiss Government. They had borrowed as much as they could from four different international agencies. Their foreign debt had risen to the enormous amount of 1,501,000,000,000 kroner in 1948. That was the total volume of their foreign debt.

At the end of that time they were still in some considerable difficulty. They had rationing on articles like coffee, textiles and clothing. They still have rationing to-day of many of these commodities.... They have faced those difficulties because at the end of the war they were anxious to expand and to go ahead."

Across the border to Belgium and he had to tell a tale there but he took the precaution of proceeding incognito. Let us see him. I think we are entitled to envisage him limping with a beard until he waylaid four workmen. Two were Socialists and, so that you may get the atmosphere of the situation better, two belonged, not to the Catholic Party but to the Parti Catholique—it is in slanty letters, but that is not all.

Having identified their Party affiliations in their native language he engaged them in conversation in French, if you please, and for the purpose of discerning the economic background of Europe he said to this evenly-balanced group from behind the tunic of his beard: "Come, tell me, leaving out of consideration the revenues of the Congo and the proceeds of your steel-manufacturing industry, your coal mines and such mineral deposits as are available, setting them aside, how is it that Belgium looks so prosperous?" Here was the epoch-making reply. I am going to give it to the House in French just to show that there is culture on this side of the House as well. The epoch-making rejoinder was, Mais Monsieur, nous travaillons, the implication being that the Minister for Posts and Telegraph attributed the Lemass and MacEntee crisis to the fact that the Irish were lazy loungers and it was time that they learned from Belgian workers, Catholic and Socialist, that the key to progress and prosperity was quite simple, Mais Monsieur, nous travaillons. That, said the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, is an observation which might well be digested in this country. He set his face for Ostend where he doffed his beard, shed his limp, squared his shoulders and came back to tell the lazy Irish that all the crisis and ruin that threatened could be dissipated if they would just do two things: appreciate the new Lochinvar, Seán Lemass, and work, which he felt they had never done before.

I wish he would come down some time from his exalted exinence in Rathmines or Rathgar and see how long he would live on a seven-acre farm in a congested area or on a patch of rocks in Connemara or the Rosses. If he did, he would be better equipped to end that classic conversation when the Belgian workmen, in quartet, proclaimed the solution of our difficulties, Mais Monsieur, nous travaillons. It is because the Fianna Fáil Party comprise “silly billies” like the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and Deputy Briscoe and his kind that Deputy MacEntee, the Minister for Finance, and Deputy Lemass, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, have dared to embark on the dirty game, the dirty trick, they have played on our people.

I am going to put this matter to the proof and I can prove it. I can prove it with evidence independent of anything in this House. The burden of the charge made against the last Government is that they stood by and suffered the balance of trade in this country to go haywire. Let me quote Pravda. This is what the unfortunate dupes of the Fianna Fáil Party are fed and they consume nothing else. Out in the cold they go like a sack of potatoes if they do not buy their copy every morning. On October 24th, this is what the dupes read from one end of the country to the other. Referring to the Report of the Central Bank, Pravda said:

"When the Tánaiste, in recent addresses, warned the people of the grave economic situation in which the country was placed, Mr. Costello, rushing in to defend Coalition policy, talked about ‘hysteria" and accused Mr. Lemass of ‘trying to raise a scare'. We wonder if he will be as flippant about the Report of the Central Bank? The report deals with the conditions that existed at the close of the financial year that ended on March 31st. The accumulated deficit in the balance of payments was then just short of £90,000,000. Since then the situation has seriously worsened and, according to a recent statement of the Tánaiste's, the deficit will mount up to as much as £160,000,000, unless drastic measures are taken to deal with the situation."

Will the Deputy say what he is quoting from?

I am quoting from the Irish Press of October 24th, 1951, popularly known as the Fianna Fáil Pravda. I am asking the House to look at this; £160,000,000. That is what Pravda said on October 24th. Now the beauty of the Fianna Fáil position is that you have Pravda and then there is a whole string of Izvestias who will say anything they like, and then there are the Government who are quite prepared to sing an agreeable trio of different songs, reserving to themselves the right to opt for whichever is most popular when they have tested public feeling. To keep track of them and earn your living at the same time requires considerable agility of mind.

That is the charge, bolstered with falsehood, bolstered with fraud, bolstered with every scare and alarm with which it could be attended, and introduced to our people on the Tánaiste's authority as a prospective deficit of £160,000,000 which he to-day says he expects will be about £60,000,000. Can you imagine a Government operated by a Tánaiste who can change his economic forecast from a deficit of £160,000,000 to one of £60,000,000 and a Minister for Finance who undertakes to read out to this House the adverse trade balance for the month of July and who reads the total imports figure and then gets as mad as a gnat when I said to him, "Put on your spectacles, you are reading the wrong column." It did not strike him when he read out the figure for our total imports that it was not the adverse trade balance. Can you imagine the approach to economic policy that must go on in a conference of which these two men are the principal advisers and my poor successor, the Minister for Agriculture, is sitting looking up at them as two oracles who cannot err? The poor man must be addled sitting there and the result of their deliberations must be truly fantastic, as indeed they appear to me to be.

One hundred and sixty million pounds! It came down to £60,000,000. But the crowning evil is that it has gone up in the last 12 months. I want the House now to think over something. We have been told that the adverse trade balance has gone haywire, just as we have been told that agricultural production is not what it should be. It is wonderful what people will believe if they are told often enough.

What is the adverse trade balance picture? What was the adverse trade balance in 1947? £90,000,000 sterling and Pravda and all the little Izvestias and all the oracles were hurrying around the country saying it was the best thing that ever happened? Splendid ! Deputy Lemass made the famous Letterkenny speech. Bear in mind it was £90,000,000 then. In 1948 it declined. In 1949 it was estimated that the real official deficit was £10,000,000. In 1950 it went up again.

Now, I call the Fourth Estate to give testimony. It has long been the ambition of the Fourth Estate to be recognised in a free and democratic country as an element which can materially sustain democratic government if it is given the chance to help. The chance it always asks to be given is the opportunity of knowing, albeit on the understanding that the information cannot be published, what the background is, to let them know the essential elements of the background against which news is operated so that they may interpret it correctly, but they must keep the background secret for reasons of national interest.

I challenge the Fourth Estate of Ireland—the editor of the Irish Independent, the editor of the Irish Press, of the Cork Examiner and the Irish Times; is it or is it not true that they were invited to the Taoiseach's room approximately 12 months ago? Is it or is it not true that he there told them that he knew of their desire to serve the national interest, whatever their political affiliations were, if they were but satisfied that it was an interest superior to any political Party's programme. Taking them at their word he told them that the Government felt that the time had come to stockpile and that, having no medium of exchange to put into the hands of our buying commissions and delegates other than inconvertible sterling—we had no tungsten and we had no oil and we had no indispensable article of international trade with which we could barter, and precious few of the others—we had to go out into a market short of supplies wherein both the United States and Great Britain were stockpiling and try to get the goods—a year or 12 months' supply of essential commodities.

Did or did not the Taoiseach tell them that? Did he not say to them: "We know that the im-balance of our international trade which will be manifested in the summer and autumn of 1951 has in it terrific political repercussions for us as a Government; normally we would ask you to start explaining to the people now what we are doing and why we are doing it and what the consequences will be in the trade picture as returned by the Statistics Office in the summer and autumn of this year; the reason why we have asked you to come here to-day was to tell you that in order to avoid forewarning the foreign interests who have the things we want to buy and thus inducing them to put the price up against us—and in the summer of next year when our people are told the background of this story they will endorse what we have done—even if wind of the word reaches you that work of this character is proceeding, if you want to help us, ‘Keep it mum' so that the buying missions that are abroad will at least get the best value they can get in the circumstances for the money that we have got to spend."

You heard Deputy Dr. Browne yesterday trying to spatter his erstwhile colleagues with mud. He knew that the facts of which he had knowledge would not serve the purpose the Minister for Finance sought to establish. Instead of getting up like a man and saying: "I have quarrelled with them, I think they treated me rottenly but when I was their agent and their colleague in this they were right," like a silly, hysterical girl, he said: "Yes, it was done, but it was I did it and maybe the Minister meant something other than what he said."

I suppose we should not be here discussing Cabinet secrets. What is one to do? Suppose a Minister for Finance gets up and says there was no stockpiling and that those who stockpiled, like Deputy Dr. Browne, did it on their own initiative, what are you to do when you know that that is a blooming lie and when you were present at the Government meeting at which the Taoiseach asked each Minister to come prepared with a schedule of what he and his advisers thought should be done and what he and his advisers jointly determined between them in his own particular province it was essential to buy. The Taoiseach invited the Government jointly to consider each Minister's submissions so as to determine the essentials and eliminate the non-essentials.

When we came to Health, if my memory is right, there were two categories—one, medicine and medical supplies, and the other building materials for the hospital programme. In regard to medicine and medical supplies, the Taoiseach told Deputy Dr. Browne that he was to be the judge and, having due regard to all the claims upon our reserves, he was to try to ensure that the public institutions and the hospitals would have a year's supply.

I remember Deputy Dr. Browne explaining at a Government meeting that he had negotiated with the builder to buy up all the materials that would be required for all the hospitals for which he was responsible. I remember my saying to him: "Be careful. If you use one builder and he gets all the profit on this vast volume of material, no matter what you say afterwards, allegations will be made against you. Never mind what your friends will say of what you are about to do, but ask yourself what will your enemies say of what you are about to do, and if you cannot think up an answer right away well calculated to confound them, change your plans." I remember saying to him: "There is an association of building contractors' suppliers, representative of all building suppliers, in Ireland, go and ask them to choose one or more of their number to act on a buying commission for all this material." I remember him coming back and thanking me, saying: "Of course, you are in business and you would think of this; I might quite innocently have left myself open to the malicious misrepresentation which this precaution protects me against."

That is the background in which that former colleague was invited to stab a colleague by the present Minister for Finance, who eagerly sprang to the assignment. But he could not deny that the supplies were here; he could not deny that somebody brought them here; he could not deny that it was not Dr. Noel Browne, but the Minister for Health, and he could not deny that that could only be done by leave of the Government of which he was a member, but he was solicitous to suggest that it was done by their countenancing rather than at their suggestion. He could not understand that it might be done in association with loyal colleagues who wished to share the credit and the blame of all they jointly did.

I call the Fourth Estate to witness that we told them 12 months ago that the balance of trade of this country would be dramatically and radically affected, and that the adverse trade balance would certainly equal and, possibly, exceed the 1947 figure, and that we were doing it deliberately, and thanking God that we had the resources from which to finance that precaution for our people. Were we wrong in that? Remember the situation. The Korean war was in progress. Personally, I was not pessimistic on the probability of war, but I sat there and listened for six days. I am glad to see my colleague now present. Did he hear me rebuke him for his lack of generosity? I think I spoke the truth and spoke fair.

It is not the first time that the Deputy has spoken drivel, or the last time.

Was it true?

What, the drivel?

What I said about the Deputy.

I do not know what you said.

Well, when the Deputy reads it he will not be proud. We deliberately got the stuff, and we got it in circumstances dictated not only by the certainty that it would be required of itself, but because one after another Minister of our Government had sat there while the whole Fianna Fáil Party, on this side of the House, got up and denounced us, saying that we proposed to let the people find themselves involved in war or to be surrounded by a maelstrom of war without a day's resources. I remember that the largest political Party in the House sent forth a Boanerges like Deputy Davern and an eloquent Deputy, whose name I forget, to whisper the rumour through the country. A responsible Government which has got to face then, not merely the supply question, but the question of the people's morale, is faced with a situation in which, whether you think it materially necessary or not if the people's morale is to be sustained, you have got to put yourself in the position to say what I found myself constrained to say last October: "If there is never a blade of hay saved in this country not a beast need die, for we have installed in Ireland a greater stock of cereals for human and animal consumption than was ever assembled in this country heretofore."

Deputy Dr. Browne testified yesterday that he had bought and secured, I think it was, a 12 months' supply of medicines, or as near as he could reach that, bearing in mind the scarcities with which he had to contend. I told the story of what followed, that he had negotiated with a builder to buy up all the materials required for the hospital building programme, and of my suggestion to him that it would be better if that were done through the representatives of the trade. I told of how he came back and thanked me, and said to me that I had been in business and would think of that, but that it would not have occurred to him. I told that the Deputy had full authority to employ some body of tradesmen jointly to purchase for the hospital programme as much essential material as would guarantee the programme against serious interruption and scarcity of supplies.

Did you tell the story of how you spent night after night with me trying to get me to sell myself to the Medical Association in order to keep you in office? It is a good story.

Let us pass from that. I think what we did was right and that nobody gives a damn to whom the Deputy sells his soul or if he does not sell it.

You do not have to worry. You will get free treatment for a long time for all your service.

The temptation to get into the gutter with the doctor is well-nigh irresistible, but I am resolved to resist it. Did we do wrong in buying those essential supplies? I want it known all over Ireland and all over the world, that the state of the trade balances in this country to-day was the deliberate act of the Government of which I was a member, that its state was foreseen and designed and brought about by the Government of which I was a member. If I had to do it again to-morrow, I would do it, because I am certain that we were right. I want now to know from anyone on the Fianna Fáil Benches, the Pravdas, the Vyshinskies or Izvestias, do they think we were wrong? I know what they will answer.

Let us turn now to this disgraceful White Paper, and we will read in paragraph 5 that the increase in the trade deficit has been due mainly to the heavier import of consumer goods and raw materials intended for the manufacture of consumer goods. Mark this well; if you study that White Paper with the eye of a grammarian, you will find that paragraph 5 cannot be said to govern Table 5, but how many grammarians are there amongst us who will undertake to tell us in less than ten seconds the difference between a preposition and a pronoun? We would want to know a lot more before we could dissociate paragraph 5 from Table 5. I venture to suggest that every 100 people who read that White Paper read Table 5 as being a list—a shocking list—of the prolific purchases of consumer goods. Let us see how the table is set out. We come to the first item—butter. What could be more consumable than butter? I want the House to know this and there is a record of it in the Taoiseach's Department if they want a check. When I kept studying the problem of securing supplies of butter, I was arrested by the fact that in 1950 the Irish people had eaten more butter than they had ever eaten since Brian Boru was slaughtered at the battle of Clontarf. Perhaps Deputies will remember that I used this formula in the House before. Now, our economy is such that inflation will not show itself here by a domestic price rise. Inflation, in our special circumstances, is liable first to manifest itself as a striking increase in the import of consumer goods from sterling sources, but the failure to export is a sort of inverted import.

It struck me as odd that our people are in a position to eat more butter than any people in Europe and that, having reached such a high standard of living, we were not exporting any butter, whereas, in 1934, when we produced the same quantity of butter, we shipped half of it abroad and sold it for some millions of pounds. It struck me that if we could do the same at present it would play a not insubstantial part in closing the gap in our balance of payments. When that matter engaged my attention I went to the Taoiseach and placed the problem before him. I said that I felt the Department of Finance should have its attention directed to the investigation of this matter, because it might be the first symptom of inflation. But it was not. The reason for the vast consumption of butter is that I have brought the retail price of this commodity down to a level which makes it cheap as a medium for frying, as an ingredient for cakes and so forth, in comparison with jam, dripping, margarine and all the other competing commodities. We have brought butter down so low by subsidy that the other comestibles have been allowed to find an economic level in comparison with other substitutes for butter. Butter is the cheapest food that one can buy for any purpose, and so it is that our people are not rushing out with surplus spending power above what they require for a decent standard of living. They are simply exercising a normal economic choice between jam, dripping, margarine and other shortening mediums in picking out of that whole range butter costing either 2/8 a lb. or 3/- a lb., which is the cheapest fat in relation to all other commodities of that nature. We heard the Minister for Agriculture last night saying that he was going to import butter. We need not have imported butter. We could have cut the ration. I want Fianna Fáil to listen to this. The evidence of the situation was that the poorest housewife in Ireland, having shopped through the whole range of available fats, had rightly discerned that the cheapest fat for her family was butter. We were not producing butter in sufficient quantity to give everybody in Ireland eight ounces.

There were two courses open to us as a Government. The easy one was to come to Dáil Eireann and cut the butter ration to six ounces. It would have saved subsidy and re-established the black market, for which there is always an opening. We could have let the well-to-do make up the eight ounces by substituting two ounces of the alternatives which we had in abundance, or we could have bought butter from abroad and filled up the gap in the ration and charged the difference between the retail price and the price at which we had to buy it abroad to subsidy. That is what we did, and I want to ask Fianna Fáil if we did the wrong thing. Should we have cut the ration of those who could not afford to buy an alternative and let them do without it, or was it right carefully to weigh the relative values of the various commodities which our resources permitted us to buy and to put in high priority butter which, under our policy, was the cheapest fat a family could buy? I fought for that, and the responsibility is mine, if it is anybody's, for importing butter. If my memory serves me right, Deputy Dr. Browne, when he was Minister for Health, endorsed my view that rather than cut the ration we should bring in butter, while at the same time exerting ourselves to the limit to ensure that our home supply would be sufficient to meet our needs at the earliest possible moment. Were we wrong?

We exported.

I made a mistake, mirabile dictu. You may not have perceived it. Perhaps I dazzled you. None the less I was human. I still am. Does that astonish you?

The second item is wheat. What is more consumable than wheat? There is not a higher official in the Department of Finance who did not know and tell the Minister for Finance that of the 300,000 cwt. mentioned in the note not one lb. of it was brought into this country for human consumption. I have got to tell the story now; it did not suit to tell then and I do not think it will suit the country internationally now, but it is better that our interests should suffer in that sphere than that the people should be fooled as they have been fooled and cruelly misled.

I got that wheat under the International Wheat Agreement, under which I had a right to buy wheat and command it at $1 80 cents when I would have had to pay $2 25 cents for maize. I was under no obligation, I had given no promise not to do it but I knew if I took up the residue of our ration which I was in a position to demand at $1 80 cents, the usual hugger mugger would start in the International Advisory Organisation and a good reason would be advanced why there was no wheat. I got the wheat afloat and once the wheat was on its way nobody ever asked until the goms in this Government constrained me now to tell. That wheat to-day is being sold in every town in Ireland under the euphonious title of pollard. It can be bought in any town in Ireland, delivered in a 6 ton wagon, for £25 a ton, when maize is £37.

I have got seven sows at home which I hope will shortly have 70 bonhams, and 50 per cent. of their diet is pollard. It came in as wheat at 12/- a cwt., £12 a ton less than maize cost. Was I wrong? Was it improvident to bring in this wheat? The White Paper says it was. Look at the new Taoiseach-elect. He would never have published that White Paper. He is the old dog for the hard road. He has learnt how dangerous it was to go campaigning with Sancho Panza, because a cavalier mounted on a donkey, if he does not know how to ride, may get run away with. That is the donkey, and it has run away with the man who rode it, and if he does not break his political neck off this donkey I am a Dutchman.

We brought in 12 months' reserve of tea. Who says we should not?

We did not.

There was the same quantity when I came in as when I was leaving.

The volume of tea imports went up by a 100 per cent.—from £1.7 million to £3.6 million, an increase of £1.9. Was there not nearly two years' supply of tea? He does not say yes and he does not say no.

There was not.

He will not say yes.

There was not. Is that clear?

I think there was. In any case there was 100 per cent. more bought in the period covered by this White Paper than was bought the year before, and the allegation here in Table 5 is that the purchase of consumer goods created a crisis in our normal trade which threatened the survival of the nation, when by the providence of God out of the West rode Young Lochinvar and appropriately enough his name was Lemass. Lochinvar Lemass will ride to the rescue, and as his chief retires to a lofty eminence to look down into his heart when the inclination moves him he will see Lochinvar proudly cantering at the head of forces, which may have shed a latent rump but have acquired a whole new tail, geared at the head of a mighty host in the middle of the road.

Alice in Wonderland.

God knows I wondered if that was where I was to-day when Deputy Briscoe was talking. I think when Deputy Briscoe rose up in his wrath to accuse me of being anti-semitic——

He did not.

He did. He said that I had been cracking jokes on the fact that he was a Jew and in the next breath the same warrior proceeded to give me a lecture on the duties of an Irish patriot. Would you blame me for thinking that I was Alice in Wonderland or Through the Looking-Glass? If I had found myself at the Mad Hatter's Tea Party with the Dormouse on my right, the aged man sitting on the gate in front of me and the Cheshire Cat vanishing all but a smile above my head, I would not have found the situation more diverting or surprising.

You were not embarrassed?

I was greatly tempted to disgrace myself. It was only by a very strong effort that I restrained my baser self.

There is a lovely entry here. Raw cocoa. What could be more consumable or improvident to purchase at a time of crisis than cargoes of raw cocoa. The imports were raised from £9 million to £1.6 million, an increase of £7 million worth of cocoa. How bad we were. I can imagine the flutter amongst Fianna Fáil Senators and Senatoresses and their saying: "Cocoa! how bad we were."

We are told that the c.i.f. price was up by 47 per cent. and there is a note below which says: "Increased price reflected in higher value of chocolate crumb exports." Will that suggest to you that 80 per cent. of these imports were the raw material of an industry which was exporting milk to Great Britain at a price which paid our farmers approximately 4d. per gallon more than the Government had fixed for milk to be converted into butter, and that these imports of cocoa were the imports for a new industry, not a substantial unit of which is within ten miles of a city or town? This Government has told us that one of its great new remedies for the Lochinvar Lemass crisis is the decentralisation of industry and that they are going to bring in a Bill for that purpose. In one 12 months the Department of Agriculture, over and above what Industry and Commerce were doing, had factories established for the processing of agricultural produce in one form or another in Dungarvan, in Carrick-on-Suir, in Clonmel and in Cahir and there was another to be established in Ballinasloe. The former Minister for Industry and Commerce will confirm that. In the case of every factory that was put up we decided to bring the factory round to the people not the people to the factory. That is what that cocoa referred to in the White Paper was required for. If we did not bring it in, we were going to have the milk used for chocolate crumb sold at the price we could get for it at home and we would have to sack over 100 people. Were we wrong to bring it in?

No one said that.

The White Paper said it. I can visualise the scene that transpired between the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance, when the Government met on that Friday to consider, as a remedy for the danger to the prosperity of this country, the early publication of Sancho Panza's Ass. Let it be known all over Ireland, the proper description for the White Paper is Sancho Panza's Ass and I shall show you that it is desirable to make that known not only in Ireland but outside, because Sancho Panza's Ass has been taken as the text for comments on this country outside Ireland.

Then we come to currants and raisins. The country stood aghast at the sight of the Minister for Finance straining his collar stud to keep the Irish £ abreast of the English £. The whole Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis, studs popping in every row, cries out: "Keep the Irish £ abreast of the British £" ! The task, they thought, was a thousand times exacerbated by the profligacy of his predecessor, who in the worst crisis known to history was disposed to increase the national purchases of currants and raisins by one million sterling.

You had nothing what ever to do with it.

The Tánaiste was not in when I was explaining that there were the Pravdas, the Izvestias and the duet or trio. You had something like this: Pravda said "Yes," Izvestias said "Perhaps" and the trio said "No," and whichever was the most popular was subsequently adopted. Sancho Panza said: "You burdened me with raisins and currants to the tune of £1,500,000"; Izvestias said: "Tut, tut, not responsible, nothing whatever to do with it." Am I reasonable in calling that Sancho Panza's Ass?

What were these currants and raisins for? This was the stuff that some enterprising gentleman was persecuting Maurice Webb with as cake mixture, if you please, and on being restrained from the introduction of that comestible into Britain, he cut up an apple, mixed it with the currants and raisins and returned with a galleon laden with mincemeat. The last I heard of him he was in the Court of Appeal in England seeking to establish that the introduction of a specified number of apples, duly shredded into a pound of currants and raisins, transmuted the substance from cake-filling to mincemeat. This is what the currants and raisins were coming in for—coming in a back door, mixed with apple and then sold at a handsome profit. I read an interview with the gentleman in which he was described as travelling in a car, having a great air of prosperity. He was able to sell the goods which he imported at 3d. at as high a figure as 9d., and if these profits are reaching this country, more power to his elbow, because it cannot affect the balance of trade adversely.

There is nothing in the record of these imported consumer goods to show that these currants and raisins were used in the manufacture of commodities which were exported, though we are told that exports of preserved fruit are £1.8 million higher. We are also told that the imports of sugar show an increase of 40 per cent. in volume and that the c.i.f. price is 6 per cent. higher. I think I am right in saying that a great part of the sugar was also used in industrial processes and a relatively small quantity of it used in exactly the same way as tobacco. Unrationed sugar was sold to those who wanted more than their ration and who were obliged to pay the economic price for it, with an additional levy to relieve the Exchequer of the burden of the subsidy on rationed sugar. Were we right to do that?

We brought in tobacco, we stockpiled and we distributed continuously great quantities of tobacco. Is there any more deflationary procedure than to make widely available an unnecessary comestible carrying a heavy degree of tax?

There was no stockpiling.

Although we have in this country a greater stock of leaf tobacco in bond than I believe ever before——

We have about a year's less stock than is normal.

Oh, the subtle creature!

Less stock than we had during the war.

The subtle creature knows fully that the people listening to him do not know that consumption is almost double pre-war consumption and he compares the stock now with the pre-war stock.

Do not call it stockpiling. The stock is going down.

The stock is not going down. In any case, here is the evidence. We are in this amazing position—listen to me, because this is astonishing—we began this debate on the ground that we bought improvidently too much and now, by heaven, I am defending myself against the Minister for Industry and Commerce who says: "Blast you, you did not buy enough." How long is this fantastic folly to go on?

Out of this has grown a situation in which every joint stock bank in Ireland has proceeded to apply a credit squeeze on ordinary simple people, degrading and insulting them in the presence of their neighbours. They are men who in their own small communities are equal to the great Panjandrums, directors of companies and mighty Ministers. They are only little creatures but they are respected men in their own community. One of their boasts and prides was that they would never contract a debt that they were not in a position to pay, and one of their gratifications was that their financial standing was such that if the bank manager desired to discuss a matter of business with them he came to call on them and was made welcome and entertained. It may sound a trivial thing in the Metropolis but to us in the country it is our life. He does not like now to be sent for by the bank manager and to be told that if he does not come and render an account of himself his cheques will not be honoured and to discover that if he goes to any other bank he will be told that the Government have recommended caution and that the advance he seeks is not essential because it is only reasonable that his own bank will give him all the accommodation that is good for him.

All that, because I am to be invited here to dance catch-as-catch-can around this debating Chamber to determine whether the Government of Ireland to-day are embarrassed by the fact that their predecessors bought too much or bought too little, and I cannot pin the Minister responsible for this Bill before the House down to a clear and final declaration as to what the basis of his complaint is.

This is a dirty, shameful fraud, and it is a wicked, irresponsible thing of the Tánaiste and of the Minister for Finance to embark upon this political adventure without counting the cost to people who could not defend themselves against that betrayal of trust.

I remember when I was a child thinking it was hyperbole when William Jennings Bryan used the peroration at the Democratic Convention of 1900: "You shall not crucify humanity upon a cross of gold." For no other reason than the service of what I believe to be a sordid little political adventure, ordinary people in this country have been exposed to the agony that wealthier and greater have fought to defend themselves against in declaring: "You shall not crucify humanity upon a cross of gold," because what is being done in this country now is to say to ordinary people whom we—the Leader of the Opposition when he was Taoiseach and every one of my colleagues who were members of the Government—asked to go into debt, to clear the warehouses on the North Wall. We could not stockpile if the stocks simply piled up in Dublin and Cork, and if they did not pass out into the vacant storage in the country our best effort must be frustrated. We asked them to do it, and we told them that if they would help we would see them through. It was not only supporters of the Government. I am convinced, and Deputies on the far side of the House must know that dozens of Fianna Fáil business men felt that this was an issue superior to Party or political interest, and they bought more than their normal trade requirements. Travellers going around Ireland to-day are going into small shops, who want to order the goods for delivery in the spring, but who have been told by bank managers: "If you write a cheque for the amount due for your autumn goods we will not honour it."

It is the same in Britain, the same in the Six Counties.

Does not the Deputy understand that Great Britain is arming herself to resist the greatest threat that ever overhung humanity?

The banks are restricting credit there as well as here.

But this is Ireland and we will not have our people crucified upon a cross of gold by bankers from London or from Dublin and that is why we are asking this Government to see that, if the money interest in England can crucify their people, no money interest will crucify this country since it got its freedom. Are we wrong to ask that? Remember, I am no radical in these matters.

Australia is not at war.

Is not this our country? Cannot we do in Ireland what we think right, not what the Australians tell us, not what the British Treasury tells us, not what New York tells us? Are not we entitled to say that, whatever is the rule in other countries, money in Ireland is the servant of the people, not their master and that if there has got to be a showdown, if anyone in this country wants to throw down a challenge to the legitimate Government of this country, there is one issue there will be no division about in Dáil Éireann, there is one thing we are unanimous about, wherever we sit.

It may be a good Government or it may be a bad Government, but it is our Government in Ireland, and there is nobody big enough in this country to defy it and to get away with it. We have a right to say to our Government: "You have a duty to see that, whatever they do in London or New York or Sydney, no one will claim the right to trample our people underfoot by no more formidable warrant than the warrant to wealth. That warrant does not run in Ireland." In this country the only authority is the one conferred by God on those whom we as the representatives of the Irish people choose for the delegation, and it is something money cannot buy. We ought to be proud that in Ireland that is the kind of democracy we have. So authoritative is this Government, so was its predecessor. I think the Leader of the Opposition will confirm me when I say that with all the authority which we then had and which now the present Government has we asked the people there to help us in the job.

Mouse-traps was one commodity which was stockpiled.

I want to register in a most solemn way my protest against the betrayal of people who took the word of the Government of this country. I think the Government has a solemn duty to honour this bargain. They may give notice that they are going to terminate a bargain which they do not approve of, but the liabilities outstanding must be discharged and, in respect of many people in this country, they are not being discharged now, and it is wrong. They have a right to the assurance that the Government of this country will do more than talk in restoring to independent men who take a pride in their independence the right to walk into their bank, when they have to, to get the accommodation they require for the legitimate prosecution of their business without taking off their hat or being beholden to any moneyed power in the world. It is as well that we should face it. I am not a radical in these matters. I would preserve the sterling link. I value highly our sterling assets. I know the arguments for and I know the arguments against, but I believe that the existing method of administering bank credits in this country has no logical foundation—but it works. Now that is the point: I think it works. It is very hard to get a system that works pragmatically. For that reason I want the system that we know does work to go on working. But it is right to say now that should it ever accept to itself the illusion that there is any master in this country but the legitimate Government, ours are not a people who will tolerate that illusion long. I have said time and again to many conservatives who sought to argue the right-hand view with me: "Watch your step, because in your solicitude to press down on our people a degree of so-called orthodoxy which our people will not accept you may precipitate an upheaval that will sweep away far more than you or I would like to see go, with no guarantee whatever that anything will be put in its place that will work half so well."

I urge the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce to bestir themselves now and to see that these institutions work well and chop no logic with us. We have not come to chop logic about economics. We have no apology to make to money changers for being politicians. We became that of our own free will and we are proud to be that in the public life of Ireland. With that authority about us, we know our people better than money changers whether they be moneylenders, pawnbrokers or bankers. They all come to the same thing. They all live by usury, greater or less. That is where Deputy Hickey and I come dangerously close to agreeing with one another. I may contaminate him politically, but I am always afraid he will drive me mad. It ought to be treated quite apart from the rules of orthodoxy. They had better make the system work and they had better make it work, because we want it, and it is we who count. The only justification there is for their existence is the quality of the service they give our people. If it ever seems to us that they have forgotten their obligation to serve and have, for a moment, succumbed to the illusion that they have a right to rule, and attempt to use their power to that end, we will sweep them out of existence without a moment's hesitation and face the future: whatever it may be, it could not be worse than that.

Combs, iron and steel manufactures: were we wrong to buy these things?

You did not. If you had, you would have had some sense. You bought nylon stockings and mouse-traps.

Read the White Paper.

I should be much obliged if the Tánaiste would send for the Minister for Finance. I should like to be a witness of the atomic fission. Would it precipitate a chain reaction and convert the whole Fianna Fáil Party into an atomic bomb? The only thing is that I understand it would have to generate great heat before we could detonate it. I do not think there is much in the Fianna Fáil Party, except the Leader alone, capable of generating heat. Cold feet—perhaps— but heat! Long, long ago they lost that.

It was caught in a mousetrap.

I do not think we are going to be a witness of the fission but that does not alter the physical fact that it will take place. Vehicles— there is something I want to talk about. A very prudent friend of mine, when he heard me say I had a few well-chosen words to offer in this debate, said: "Now, listen, do not say we are not importing luxuries. That is one of those lies that has got across. You will find the most rational and wise man saying: ‘Damn it, look at the great big American cars. There should be some restraint.'" I said: "I am not made that way. I know it is right. I am going to say it is right and ram it down their throats, but the people will not believe it." I had hardly left and I declare to God I met a most respectable man who said: "Look at the great number of big American cars that are being imported." Did you see the figures in respect of the import of cars? I was astonished. They are microscopic. In the last nine months, I think the total money expended on the import of American passanger cars was something less than £2,000.

That is the kind of Government you had.

I was not Minister for Industry and Commerce and did not claim to be. I had plenty to do in the Department of Agriculture. My successor paid me the compliment of dividing my work up amongst three others. Would you not think I was well enough off without checking statistics with the Minister for Industry and Commerce?

Some of the Fianna Fáil Deputies went round with Sancho Panza's Ass, and said: "Look at the vehicles. They have gone up £800,000. Is that not awful—people, flying about in motorcars? They would blind you going down the road." At which moment, the Minister for Finance will fly by in a Dodge car, all black and gold, and will not look on the side of the road you are on. Vehicles, which for the purpose of propaganda are 24 horse-power, American touring cars, turn out on examination to be 2,347 agricultural tractors. Were we wrong to bring in tractors? Do you remember which of these it was who advocated that we should prohibit the export of horses so that, when war broke out, we could plough the land of Ireland with a horse and plough because there would be no tractors, no oil or anything and that we ought seriously to consider retaining the larger bullocks so that they also could be used for tractor purposes? We brought in some 2,300 tractors. Were we wrong?

Wood and timber and manufactures —did you hear Deputy Briscoe to-day marvelling that we did not, when we were going to spend money abroad, buy timber suitable for housing? Has he not woken up to the fact yet that the Minister for Finance has been in hysterics all over the country because we bought too much timber?

You did not buy any at all.

The items are listed at paragraph 5 in the White Paper.

There was no stockpiling.

Here are listed the items.

If you want to know the history of that I will give it to you. With regard to Timber Importers, Limited, who snaffled their funds?

Do not bring in that red herring. This one is a real smelly one. Heaven help us, do we not know the Minister? After 20 years, he has them fresh and he has them stale; he has them smelly and he has them stinking, for calling upon when the situation demands. He has not produced the stinking one yet, but he will before this is over.

Textiles, apparel, rubber and manufactures, paper and cardboard, and motor spirit, are listed in the White Paper. I can remember three separate meetings of the Government at which the matter was discussed as to whether the petrol and oil companies would not increase their storage in this country. They could not even be persuaded to fill the storage they had got. I remember the Minister for Industry and Commerce going from the meeting of the Government to see representatives of the oil companies and saying to them that we would not be satisfied with anything less than that, making allowance for transhipment through the storage inland, they should fill up all the storage. Then we discovered what Governments all over the world have discovered. An international oil cartel is one of the few things which even a sovereign Government cannot buck with impunity. They have to handle them gingerly and grasp them where it hurts. If you do not get a right hold of them, they might not only hurt you in a bland and courteous way, but they would say that no tankers have arrived for the last seven days, that they have tried London and New York, but were confident that they could get over the difficulty. Supplies being to run down in storage. You think of passing an Act of Parliament and they say: "Pass two," and they would see if they could get us a tanker. If you do not play ball, you can pass 40 Acts of Parliament and you can run your tractors or let them stand still. The Minister for Industry and Commerce had to handle oil cartels prudently, firmly, but not too Mossadequely, and signs on them——

I tried to handle them the other way once. I was let down in this House.

By Mossadeq?

By the Labour Party. At least their desertion shocked me more.

This is not the stinker yet. There is no more dangerous citizen than a man who is going round in the perpetual belief that he is David and the other fellow is Goliath, when it turns out that he is Abner and the other fellow is Joe Louis. Goliath was an accommodating kind of fellow, who put out his forehead and got his right in the middle of it with astonishing velocity by a ball. But when Abner, post-toasties and all, squares off to a Joe Louis kind of fellow, his block is knocked off, and remember that when you get your block knocked off it is we that suffer.

You know the poor devil whom the Minister managed to inveigle into that campaign with him talked of having to go to Canossa. Before that poor devil could get back to earn his living in London he damned near had to crawl round the Guildhall on all fours.

We lost the fight but you were on the wrong side.

I was not on any side. It was a fight in which I had no part. I thought the Minister was a damned fool to get into it. Like any other fight, he got his neighbour into it and, when the dust and tumult died, he was sitting pretty, but the poor damned fellow who went tiger-hunting with him had no seat in his pants and was getting his wounds dressed for years afterwards while the Minister was telling the family how lovely the tigers looked in their natural surroundings.

The Minister has no sense of humour.

Remember that Deputy Davin was also on the wrong side.

I come now to fertilisers, and they will smell down any fish the Minister produces. I make this my second test. I challenge the Fourth Estate to give their testimony and I offer this myself. There is no precedent that I know of in the history of this country for the Government of the day opening the Treasury and putting at the disposal of one Minister of the Cabinet £1,000,000 sterling of money to buy fertilisers on his own account. So far as I know, that has never been done before in the history of this country or of Great Britain, but, in the course of last year, the Dutch superphosphate trust—and I think they were bluffing—for the purpose of showing how liberal they were and how they were not applying any restriction at all—pleasant and polite men—said to me in my room that we could have 100,000 tons at £9 15s. c.i.f. if we wanted it. I was given authority to buy it and I bought it. When I left office there were 48,000 tons of it in the possession of the Minister for Agriculture of that day. It would be a very profitable occupation for some of the Izvestias during the next fortnight to inquire of the Minister for Agriculture of to-day why he is trying to sell at £13 a ton what I bought for £9 15s. There is a quarter of a million pounds of money in it, which might help to relieve the anxieties of his worrying friend, the Minister for Finance.

I suppose they believe all that?

Do you deny it?

I will deal with the facts fully when I get a chance.

He does not say "yes" and he does not say "no". I want to draw the attention of the House to something the Minister forgot to amend. The House will remember how his skilled and agile hand was pinned to the table yesterday while engaged in much the same operation as left a scar on his leader's hand three months ago—changing the evidence, and, what was worse, getting caught at it. At column 311, the Minister said:

"I do not think there is anything wrong with the idea of expanding considerably our capital investment in Irish productive enterprises or in meeting Irish social needs except that up to the present not enough of it has been financed by the ‘pay-as-you-earn' basis. The Central Bank certainly has not demonstrated to my satisfaction that the country is incapable of supporting a still larger capital investment programme than anything yet attempted. But they have shown, and their proof of this is, I think, unshakable, that we are not attempting to finance enough of it out of current savings. The sincerity of the protestations of the Deputies on the benches opposite to assist the Government in achieving the expansion of services which we intend to effect, and in proceeding with the capital investment programme which we believe to be necessary will be put to the test when they are asked to vote for increased taxation for that purpose."

That is a very de Valera-esque phrase and if it had been uttered by the Taoiseach he would have demonstrated most clearly 18 months from now that the taxation reference covered extra services and capital investment, but if you charged him with meaning that, before it suited him to attach that meaning to it he would grow pale and, more in sorrow than in anger, would say: "This is the kind of thing that sometimes makes me curse the day I entered public life "—that anyone should so infamously misrepresent, should so cruelly misrepresent what is as clear as crystal, that the words "extra taxation" applied only to extra services and could not conceivably in that context be imagined to have any application to capital investment.

Remember that this is the incumbent, this is the Caesar to Deputy de Valera's Augustus. Remember that, in the days of Caligula, it was the custom to teach the Caesar to wear purple before gold was added to his toga. We know that Caesar must learn, like Augustus, to change the evidence and even to get caught. We know that Caesar, like Augustus, is ambitious, not for money, not for wealth, incorruptible, but avid of power, and it fascinates me that Caesar is already beginning to learn the capacity of Augustus for the double entendre, which may never have to be used, but which is there in case it should be wanted and so expressed that he can be outraged if anyone reads that meaning into it, before he wants that meaning read into it, and so expressed that he can be equally grieved and shocked that anyone would doubt he meant that, when, 18 months later, it is convenient for him to say so.

Mark that passage. It was put there to justify Augustus if he advocates taxation. When his is the responsibility, he will remind you of what Caesar said. You do not have to worry about a Budget so long as the present Augustus is afoot. He got "bet" once on an autumn Budget and he will never get "bet" again, that way, in any case. You will have no general election until they split, and by that time Augustus will have gone to the park or out to grass.

You will be waiting a long time if you wait that long.

Please God, he will have a long, prosperous and peaceful life.

If you are waiting for a split in order to have an election, you will be waiting for 25 years.

The minute de Valera goes to the park you will split wide open right through the middle.

Hear, hear!

Deputy Aiken hates the sight of you, as you hate the sight of him.

What has that to do with the Bill?

It is the whole root and source of this whole racket.

The Deputy might see it that way——

——but it seems to me to be quite irrelevant— any alleged split in any Party. The Deputy should confine himself to the Bill. He seems to be wandering.

I am not talking to the Bill. I am talking to the reasoned amendment.

The Bill and the amendments are before the House. I suggest that the Deputy should confine himself to them.

I am trying to restore economic confidence, to reassure our people that we left this country economically stronger than any other country in Europe and that all the hullabaloo about impending disaster is nothing but the false front of internecine warfare of the Fianna Fáil Party; and that the whole desire to stir up panic in the country was undertaken originally to present the present Tánaiste as the only man who could pull the country through, and it has run away with him.

I left this Chair about an hour ago. The Deputy told me that before I left.

You asked me to tell you then.

I ask the Deputy to confine himself to the Bill and the amendments. I am repeating that request.

I have dealt with all I have got to say there. I have read you, I think, Pravda's account. It is astonishing how, if something is repeated ad nauseam, ultimately everybody begins to swallow it for fact. In fact, it is a very good method of argument, if you are talking to stupid people——

You should know.

——to say: "It is universally admitted that..." and unless your adversary has the good sense to say at once: "You are a liar", you are very likely to get away with it.

That is like everybody in the corridors saying it.

My purpose was to give maximum verisimilitude to a story I know to be true. What did you expect me to say? That no one knows this but myself? If I said that, no one would believe it. It is very important that everyone should believe it, because it is true.

Repetition makes it true.

The Deputy is a shrewd old campaigner. Has he asked himself what happened to that one of the busted flush that migrated yesterday? Was it the wave of economy that is being pressed upon us that persuaded him that he should not undertake the expenses of another by-election campaign? His credit might not stand it, and his bank manager was being exhorted not to help, and he retired into the copious bosom of Fianna Fáil.

The Chair cannot see any relevancy in those remarks to the Bill or the amendments.

Every evidence of economy of an exotic kind, I think, can be rightly attributed to the activities of the present Ministers. Even when Fianna Fáil Deputies start sending private correspondence under the Ministerial frank, who will blame them? Every man must turn an honest penny, in the distress upon us, and are adjured to work their hardest in the national effort—and I have no doubt the postman gladly carried the letter no one paid him to deliver. It has become fashionable.

Agriculture. I agree with those who say the land is what matters. We have only two assets that count in Ireland— our people and our land; they are the only sources of wealth we have, and if they will not provide it, nothing else will. I confess I am jealous of the capacity of our land to provide for our people the standard of living that I have always hoped to see them have. It has become the fashion, I am sorry to say, not only on the far side of the House but elsewhere, to join in lamentations about the rigid refusal of the volume of agricultural production to change. Even some of my good friends have said: "Not but that we admire the zeal and energy of the late Minister for Agriculture, but he did not seem to have much result because, after all, the volume is only up to what it was before the war."

What astonishes me is the success with which Pravda and the whole gang have succeeded in selling the proposition that the appropriate comparison is of 1950 with 1938, overlooking the intervening fact that, taking 1938/9 as 100, in 1940 it was 95, in 1942 it was 91, in 1943 it was 89, in 1944 it was 91, in 1945 it was 97, in 1946 it was 95, in 1947 it was 89, and then they passed the baby over to me. That figure—89 —is the lowest figure that ever was recorded since grass grew in Ireland; and that is what I got when I came into office. There were cattle in this country grazing knee-deep in grass and dying of starvation—that no man had ever seen before—from aphosphorosis. I do not want to recapitulate the story. There were never less four-legged beasts in Ireland since man was first known to inhabit it than when I came into office. Do Deputies remember that? And in three short years under the inter-Party Government, starting from the bottom, gross production rose from 89 to 99.3, and in 1950 it was 98.7. That is gross agricultural production. Now, do not let any trickster, any three-card trickster, sell you the figures of net agricultural production, because the more rapidly this country was sinking into bankruptcy the higher the net figures were going, since net meant what you took out of the soil less what was put in, so that if you put nothing in your net grew and grew and grew, but if you were a good farmer and fed your cattle and spread their manure on the land and bought fertilisers and kept the place up to date——

You should get more out of it, and if you got less there was something wrong.

That is the Capel Street mind on agriculture. Do not blame him. He knows as much about agriculture as my foot. Let the country be mined, is his idea; go down, get as much as you can out of it, why don't you mine the land? He is great at mining. That is what Fianna Fáil farmers rejoice in doing. That is what some Fianna Fáilers not a thousand miles away from us do.

They would be very bad farmers.

They take a farm in Tipperary, take seven crops of wheat off it, then swap it with the Land Commission for a farm in County Meath, take seven crops of wheat off it, then sell it preferably to the Land Commission or, if not, to some damned fool from England, who buys it through a local auctioneer. That is mining your land, and by that method you can get a net return from your land that would dazzle you, but it is not farming, and when you take the gross return, looking at it over a period, one year after another, it means that you can see what is happening. You can see whether people are mining the land or farming it. If they are farming it, the gross return should slowly rise; if they are mining it, it comes slowly down by the law of diminishing returns which would work dramatically on a farm operated by the Tánaiste. In 1948—I am not blaming Fianna Fáil, because during the war they could not get feeding stuffs: I am not aspersing their record at all—when you see that the volume of agricultural production was on the way up, do not be sold that dummy. You cannot judge agricultural production by taking an isolated year. You must at least take a quinquennial and look at the trend. All I can claim is that I was given the agricultural industry of this country into my care when it was in a state of dereliction unprecedented in Irish history; in the three and a half years during which I was charged with responsibility for it and the inter-Party Government was the Government responsible to the people of the country, there was a record of steady maintained progress, and I guarantee that nothing but Fianna Fáil malice or incompetence can prevent its continued growth and expansion which we initiated and maintained to the day we left office.

Deputy Aiken thought to scandalise us. That member of the Fianna Fáil brigade—Ecce! He has come in and the two atoms are side by side. They tell me that in Nevada, when the bomb is just going to go off, that is what happens only nobody lives to describe the scene. I understand that Deputy Aiken condemned me personally or by inference because I persuaded the Government to retrieve the fortunes of a group of farmers who, through no fault of their own, had their potatoes thrown back on their hands by asking the Government to direct the alcohol factories to enable the Potato Distributing Board to pay £8 per ton to those farmers, thus putting 4d. per gallon on industrial alcohol, thus increasing the cost of petrol to the distributor by one-eighth of a penny per gallon. The Government said to the petrol distributor: “You are getting 3½d. per gallon profit. You are getting 2/4 every time you go to the pump and turn the handle. Your neighbours have met with a fortuitous disaster which can be repaired by your contributing one-eighth of a penny out of your 3½d. profit for a restricted period in orded to enable us to turn those rejected potatoes into alcohol.” And they lent a hand. Does Dáil Éireann think we were unreasonable in that? The story was told, I think, to the poor yobs at the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis. They were told that I had got the Government to put 4d.—if you look very closely you will see that it says “on alcohol”——

4/- per gallon. not 4d.

I know that it worked out at between one-eighth of a penny and a farthing on petrol.

You did not put it on petrol. You left that for me to do.

The Minister went to the distributors and said that they should carry it for the time being.

Until the election was over.

Does this House think that it was unreasonable to ask a body of traders who were earning 2/4 every time they unlocked the pump, in a crisis which none of us could have prevented and which no foresight on the part of the farmers could have prevented, to help their neighbours by carrying that little burden on their profit for a strictly limited period of time. The responsibility is mine. I persuaded, I argued, I urged the Minister for Industry and Commerce to consult—naturally he was concerned primarily to defend those whose interests were committed to his care— and I, the interests of the farmers. I think I made the case that they were mostly small farmers, poor farmers from Cooley, North Mayo and other places like that, who were not able to carry the burden. In any case I did it— proudly and with no apology. Does any Fianna Fáil Deputy think I was wrong?

That is not the complaint. The complaint is that you left the increase in petrol until after the election.

We said that we would not give any increase but would ask them to carry it for the time being.

I see that my distinguished successor has been edged out of the front bench into the parliamentary secretaries. I suppose that there is a change in Government policy. In my day the voice of agriculture at least was heard. I understand that at the present time it is allowed to speak only on sufferance. It is a pity because he is a friendly, agreeable kind of man.

Mirabile dictu. I think I have made my case. As they say on the radio, let us recapitulate. I say that this is the most prosperous country in Europe. I say—I am restrained only by the reluctance to name names—that I could name half a dozen people who had the world to choose from for settled stable conditions in which to settle down for their retirement and for the safe-keeping of their substantial property, and who brought it to Ireland, and brought their families as well. I say that the day we left office the standard of living of our people on the land was higher than it had ever been in human memory. I say that the day we left office working in this country and for this country was adventure and romance to the vast majority of our people. I say that the day we left office for the first time every farmer in the country knew that he could get a good living on his own holding, and that he was a free, independent man. I say that in the judgement of every external observer— and some of them gave public expression to their thoughts—Ireland was one country which was on the march and going in the right direction.

I say that this whole rotten racket was started for no other purpose than as a cheap political stunt to glorify the Tánaiste at the expense of the Minister for External Affairs. I say that great damage has been done, and I am not sure that much of it is susceptible to recall. I repudiate and disown the advocacy of a breach with the sterling link. I am certain that, from the point of view of the agricultural industry, it is in the best interests of our people at present to maintain that link. I do not by any means accept the proposition that the machinery at present employed by the Central Bank for the maintenance of that link is either the only machinery or the most satisfactory machinery for maintaining it. I solemnly warn the Government and this House that there is no use in trying to hold up Niagara. When it comes down to tin tacks we can ask any economist in this country this question: why does the Central Bank invest £80,000,000 of money in the bill market in London and short-term British Government securities and derive a yield of about 1¼ per cent on the whole holding while the Government and the municipal authorities in Dublin find themselves restricted for work they want to do for the want of credit? Do not try to hold up Niagara with an eggcup, because the only result of trying to do that is to break the eggcup and then watch Niagara go.

I think that there is provision in the Central Bank Act for an initiative by the board to employ part of the currency reserve for a purpose other than investment in the London bill market, but that must be done on the board's initiative; it cannot be instructed by the Government. To tell you the truth —and I say this with the fullest sense of responsibility—there is plenty of political kudos to be got by chewing the rag in this House on questions relating to credit and currency. But it may do the country much damage, because there are enough "daftees" abroad in this country who would cheerfully wreck the whole ship and then run up to the top of the mast and sit in the crow's nest and yell for help after having drowned the whole crew. Credit and money are like the atom bomb. So long as it is rolling around the floor and the child is using it for a football it looks quite harmless and a convenient piece of furniture. But if somebody hits it on the right place and at the right time the right kind of blow, it goes off and you would never know there was a child in the parish when you go to see what made the bang.

What I am trying to tell the Government—I know it is futile to do it—is that as certain as the philosophy underlying the report of the Chairman of the Central Bank is operated in this country disaster will come upon us, because nobody but a half-conscious instinctive slave would submit to the arbitrary fate that a fictitious gold standard procedure is likely to bring upon you. Gold standard my foot! Do we not all know that at the beginning of the last war, when the British Government had sold the last of their securities, they sent for the Governor of the Bank of England and said: "Start the presses going, but make it look respectable," and the Treasury deposit procedure was devised. I do not understand it and I am blowed if I can get anyone in the Department of Finance to explain it to me. It may be they do not want to as I might get bad thoughts in my head. The conquest of Germany was largely achieved with paper money. It is the same paper money on which we are supposed to be floating as safe as if we were on gold. Out of that paper money has been wrung the conquest of the world.

Look at the conquerors now.

Look at them! Every nation in the world, East and West, is standing at the back doors and the front doors, saying: "Pussy, pussy, pussy, if you will not let us unite you, what do you want us to do?" What other country in the world can say that both sides of the Iron Curtain wait with bated breath on the declaration of our faith? It should appeal to so cynical mind as that of the Tánaiste. When he is getting cynical about that, I beg of him not to believe that Deputy Hickey is so damned simple that he does not know what the sterling link means. Its pragmatic value is as a working instrument for the maintenance of a price relationship between London and Dublin. As a secure foundation for our currency it is not worth a button, and it is only the skilful maintenance of the pretence that it is that keeps the system in existence. Let Deputy Hickey and his like, before they start blasting its foundations with reverberating "Hear hears!" send me a memorandum of what they would put in its place after they dispose of it.

There are men in this country who are capable of controlling the currency.

I am no fool. I have been going round looking for people to tell me what I will put in its place. Even when I have gone to my colleague, Deputy MacBride, with whose ratiocination I find myself instinctively carried rather farther than I want to go, the only brake I can apply is: "Let us admit that the sterling link should go, but what will we put in its place?" It is I who will be selling the bullock and I do not want the cattle dealer to start off chewing the rag with me at five o'clock in the morning and saying: "The exchange in Lombard Street was very weak last night; therefore your bullock is worth 15/- a cwt. less than it was at the fair of Charlestown and though I am only offering you £32 for it I am really giving you more than the £40 you refused at Charlestown."

What about the people controlling our money?

I often wonder—and this is one of the dangers—is anyone controlling it, or is it going just the way necessity requires it to go? When the first shot was fired on the frontier of Poland the only control that remained on sterling was the probable length of Hitler's life. I do not think there will be any shot fired through the Iron Curtain but, if there is, the quality and the content of sterling will largely depend on Stalin's longevity.

And Threadneedle Street.

Threadneedle Street does not matter a jot in the presence of Stalin. Its knees are knocking together. There is only one boy who can put manners into Stalin and that is Capitol Hill and Blair House, thanks be to the Lord God; and if they were not there Threadneedle Street would be inviting Stalin over to a "tay" party because capital and wealth was ever a believer in making friends with the mammon of iniquity. At the moment, thanks be to God, Capitol Hill and Blair House do not want to make friends with the man out of Moscow. I hope they never will.

Do not test us too far. Try to the best of your ability to repair the damage that has been done. You cannot ever clear your names of the cynical squabble that has been going on for shoes that are not yet vacant. It was detestable to inflict on our people the suffering they have had to bear. It was disreputable to blacken your predecessor's record by your fraudulent diatribes. I join issue with you on every single allegation, and I look forward to the exposure of the fraudulent rubbish talked by the Minister for Finance in the present Government yesterday, the man who was reading a brief but pretending he was not; the man who did not know enough about his own Department to trust himself to speak on economics here without getting a senior officer of the Department of Finance to write his speech for him: and, having done that, he was ashamed—a man of his age—to let on that he was cribbing from his desk. If that happened in the higher infants in the national school he would deserve a slap. When it happens to a man getting on to 70 in Dáil Éireann it is hard to withhold contempt.

Vanity in the middle age, as in myself, is perhaps pardonable but in ten years' time vanity in me will be ludicrous. It is not only ludicrous but disgusting in the present Minister for Finance. When it is accompanied by an insidious pretence that he is honourably discharging his duty to the people of revealing the truth entrusted to his care, when, in fact, his real purpose is to blackguard and denigrate with facility the record of his predecessor, it is indeed a revolting spectacle. I cannot sit down without turning once again——

That is obvious.

——to Pravda. I want to read this extract. It is indeed sublime. They put him on the inside page, which I thought significant, but I do not blame them for that because it is indeed grotesque.

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