Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 4 Dec 1951

Vol. 128 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 72—Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeantar gCúng (Resumed).

Mr. O'Hara

I am glad that this very important office is being established for the purpose of furthering the interests of the Gaeltacht areas. Before proceeding further, I want to say that we in North Mayo feel very grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary for having paid a visit to that area, and, on behalf of my constituents and on my own behalf, I want to express my deepest thanks to him for that visit and for the very thorough way in which he did his work while down there. I was with him in the Mulrany and Achill districts and I heard some people suggesting that politics were being brought into it. I am proud to say that I did not see any politics being brought in anywhere. I also want to say that I feel I owe a debt to the Parliamentary Secretary for communicating with me personally and advising me as to the hour of his visit.

On the occasion of the visit by the Parliamentary Secretary, as he will recall, many matters were brought to his notice and he listened carefully to them. He paid the greatest possible attention and I sincerely hope that he will keep the various matters brought to his notice on that occasion in mind when this sum of money is being spent. We have emigration on a large scale in North Mayo. Thousands of our boys and girls are unfortunately obliged to migrate to England to earn a livelihood. That has gone on down through the years and is still going on. If one goes to the bus terminus in Dublin or down to Westland Row station, one will see thousands of people going to and coming from England, the lifeblood of the nation. It is indeed regrettable that that should be the case, and I sincerely hope that this new office will help to reduce the number of people who are obliged to migrate through no fault of their own.

I listened to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture speaking here last week and he said there was no flight from the land. If there is no flight from the land in his constituency, I can assure him that there is a flight from the land in mine. In many instances, whole villages have left and not one person remains in one house in some of these villages. That is the case in many instances in my constituency and it is due to a number of reasons. The holdings are uneconomic. Many of them are 50/-, £3, £4 and £5 valuation and any sensible person must realise that it is impossible for the father of a family to keep his wife and family in comfort on such a holding.

We have also the problem of drainage. Reference has been made in recent times to the drainage of the Moy and this is by far one of the most important drainage problems we have. I very much regret that it seems to be the Government's intention to delay this work for a long period. It is a very serious matter for the people who live along the banks of the Moy, people whose holdings are already very small and uneconomic, that four or five acres of their arable land should be flooded, and, as is the case in many instances—in the Shraheen area, in the vicinity of Foxford—the whole holding flooded and everything lost—potatoes, oats, hay and so on—and, of course, live stock endangered as well. It is a pity that that problem would not be tackled and tackled at an early date. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to take it up with the Minister for Local Government. If he could visit North Mayo at an early date and see for himself the conditions prevailing there, I am sure he would come back and impress on the Minister the importance of doing that work.

There are also schemes under the Local Authorities (Works) Act and it seems to me that the Government has cut down very drastically on that work. Consequently, we have, for the time being, widespread unemployment. There are people who were looking forward to getting their lands drained under that scheme and now the whole thing seems to be shelved. A lot of the work intended to be done is not being done. I would like to impress upon the Parliamentary Secretary the importance of starting off again on those minor drainage works. By that means thousands of acres of land that are now flooded would be made available. It is a very beneficial scheme and it should be continued.

I consider that the North Mayo area is ideal for afforestation. A start was made there in recent times and the people were looking forward to the spread of that scheme of afforestation which held out such great prospects for the uneconomic holders. The great advantage in regard to afforestation is that land which is otherwise unsuitable for tillage purposes can be utilised for forestry. Not alone would the scheme give employment to the present generation but it would give employment to generations to follow. As I have said, much of the land of North Mayo is suitable for that purpose, particularly in the Erris and Achill areas, where the land is unsuitable for tillage. I think that a big scheme of afforestation should be started in those areas because it is from those areas principally that you have migration.

There are also schemes of turf development. We have vast areas of turf in the Erris and Ballycroy areas. I mentioned these to the Parliamentary Secretary when he was down there. He said he would consider those matters. I believe that a turf-powered electric station in that area would absorb a lot of the turf. There seems to be a never-ending supply of turf in areas of Erris, Achill, Ballycroy and many other places throughout North Mayo. If the poor people in these areas have not the land on which to make a living these bogs should be developed. I think there is no better way of developing them than by erecting a turf-powered electric station. We know that all these things would cost money, but it seems to me—this scheme is intended for Gaeltacht areas and the areas to which I refer are truly Irish-speaking—that preferential treatment should be given to these areas and an opportunity given to the people to live at home and make use of the industries that are available to them if only the Government would consider sinking the money in these schemes.

We have in the county machine-won turf schemes and we have also turf produced by private methods. Lots of people think that if turf was produced on a large scale by private methods and stored in a central store in our local towns early in the year it would bring good quality fuel within the reach of the people in towns like Ballina. This would prevent overcharging by turf vendors when the weather becomes bad and when frost and snow are on the ground.

We at no time have received any consideration in the matter of industries in any part of North Mayo. It is true that we have got an alcohol factory but it is like the other alcohol factories—it is what you might describe as "a white elephant." It is not giving much employment and the product that is being turned out there is being criticised and condemned by everybody. In the very important town of Ballina you have no industries whatsoever except what were started by private enterprise. It is true that these give a certain amount of employment but there is still in the neighbourhood of Ballina a lot of unemployment. I would like to impress upon the Parliamentary Secretary, that, when he is considering the establishment of any industries, special consideration be given to Ballina which is in the heart of the migratory area. There is also Belmullet. I think that area should also get consideration for an industry. If the Parliamentary Secretary does not consider Belmullet he might consider Achill. These areas, as I have already said, are migratory areas and if such industries of which I have spoken were started it would help to reduce the number of people who are emigrating.

Our piers and harbours have been sadly neglected over a long number of years. It is no lie to say that it was a foreign Government who established them in the first instance. Under a native Government, these piers and harbours have been sadly neglected. It is really a shame that that should be the case. There is quite a good harbour in Ballina and, while Westport is not in my constituency, there is quite a good harbour there and also at Newport. I can remember when very big cargoes went to and from these ports. In Dublin you have congestion of traffic at the North Wall and one can hardly load or unload in the vicinity. Yet you have lots of storage facilities at the places I have mentioned and the harbours are quite good. It is a shame that all this traffic should be centralised in Dublin and no consideration whatsoever given to the harbours in Mayo.

Here I should like to impress upon the Parliamentary Secretary the importance of developing those harbours and also the importance of developing our fishing industry. It is a terrible thing to think that in an island country such as ours there are scores of towns and villages where you cannot buy a bit of fresh fish. That was not the case some years ago. I have often heard that in the town of Ballina, where the streets used to be lined with cart loads of different classes of fish, you can hardly get fresh fish for sale in any shop to-day. In the rural areas there is no fish at all available. If that side of our industry was put on a proper basis, I believe it would absorb a very considerable number of our unemployed people. The harvest that can be reaped from the sea is really very valuable. It is a shame that you cannot procure even a little fresh fish in country areas despite the fact that we are surrounded by water.

There is also the question of fishing gear. Apart from the question of improving the harbours generally, there is no use in expecting fishermen to put out to sea in outdated types of boats and with unsuitable fishing gear. The Parliamentary Secretary I think would be well advised to take some steps and drastic steps to remedy this whole situation.

If we are to get anywhere with our fishing industry I believe that it would in fact be advisable to have a separate Department of Fisheries and a separate Minister to deal with nothing else except fisheries. Until that is done and the thing is tackled in a serious way we will never bring that industry to the state it should enjoy in this country.

There is the question of storing the fish. You cannot land fish, place it along the side of the pier or quay and leave it there. There is the question of cold storage equipment and the proper storage of fish because, as anybody who is conversant with fishing will understand, there may be big hauls on some occasions and the surplus fish may be unsaleable.

An Ceann Comhairle

I think that that would arise more relevantly on the Vote for the Department of Fisheries. I have allowed the Deputy a good deal of latitude on the co-ordination of these services but he is going into details related purely to the Department of Fisheries.

Mr. O'Hara

I consider it so important to my constituency that I will conclude by saying——

An Ceann Comhairle

The importance of a matter to a Deputy's constituency cannot override its irrelevance.

Mr. O'Hara

I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to consider the position of proper cold storage facilities in the constituency of North Mayo.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can get it in quite easily on the Fisheries Estimate.

Mr. O'Hara

I should like to impress on the Parliamentary Secretary that the people of my constituency are looking forward to big things. They live in a very mountainous area on quite uneconomic holdings and quite a big percentage of the population is Irish-speaking. If we want to foster the language and are really sincere about fostering it there is no better way of doing it than keeping our people at home. There is another important aspect of emigration; while most of our boys and girls who emigrate are a real credit to their native country, the danger is always present when they go to big cities and towns across the water that they may go wrong. Thank God the vast majority of them have kept right, but certainly if the Parliamentary Secretary can bring about an improvement in these matters by providing industries and by considering the various points I have put forward he will have the prayers of many an Irish mother.

I would thank the Parliamentary Secretary for the way in which he dealt with these matters when he visited us and for the way he listened to everybody's point of view, but unless we see some benefits accruing in the near future we will be inclined to think again that it was just a matter of somebody coming down to investigate with nothing as a result. I sincerely hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will consider the few points I have made and give them the greatest possible consideration.

Mr. Cogan

It was gratifying, I think, for us to hear Deputy O'Hara's speech to-day and to hear him expressing the view, and not only expressing the view but stating the fact, that the Parliamentary Secretary in his investigations in Mayo in connection with this scheme avoided all trace of Party political advancement or partisanship. That is the first fundamental fact that must be established if this money which is being voted by the Dáil is to be used to the best advantage. We expect that the young man who has been given this important position will concentrate upon the vital questions with which he is called upon to deal and will not, as Deputy O'Hara said, use his position for the advancement of any political Party. It is well to have the tribute paid to him by Deputy O'Hara as it shows that the Parliamentary Secretary is starting out on the right lines.

It was also gratifying to hear the Leader of the Opposition—and I think it is right to emphasise that Deputy Mulcahy is the Leader of the chief Opposition Party in this House because I think that a general effort is being made to eclipse or submerge him. At any rate in starting off this debate he took a reasonable and constructive line and wished the Parliamentary Secretary well in the efforts which he is making to co-ordinate the various schemes which are already in operation for the advancement of the undeveloped areas and to initiate new schemes to solve the problems of those areas.

I would not have intervened at all in this debate but for the fact that after this debate opened on Thursday morning I read the scare headings in a number of papers. In one evening paper in the city the report of the debate on this important Estimate was headed "Deputy Dillon discovers a dirty fraud." There is a striking contrast between that scare heading in the Evening Mail and the speeches made by Deputy O'Hara to-day and by Deputy General Mulcahy last week. Those two Deputies who have a sense of responsibility and fair play did not talk of the discovery of a dirty fraud; they spoke with hope of the future of these congested and distressed areas. Not alone the Dublin Evening Mail but the Evening Herald also carried a large scare heading. “A racket” was the heading to Deputy Dillon's contribution to this debate. The Independent had a heading over Deputy Dillon's speech—A Political Racket. The Irish Times had a heading—A Political Stunt.

It is about time that fair-minded Deputies should cease to be as easygoing and as tolerant towards Deputy Dillon as we have been inclined to be in the past. Do we not realise that this man is dragging the public life of this country down into the gutter? Do we not realise that this man is making politics in this country seem so corrupt and so indecent that no young man or woman with a decent outlook will be inclined to enter public life or take a part in the public affairs of this country? I think it is a terrible thing.

Mr. W. Murphy

Would it not be much better if you were to forget that and speak to the motion before the House?

General MacEoin

Send for Deputy Dillon.

Mr. Cogan

It is unfortunate that I am speaking to this motion——

Mr. W. Murphy

You are speaking of Deputy Dillon.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order!

Mr. Cogan

There are some people who think it is their duty to keep on whitewashing Deputy Dillon every time he comes in and blackens himself and blackens a debate in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no item in this having any reference whatever to Deputy Dillon. I suggest to the Deputy that he might confine himself, if he wishes to refer to Deputy Dillon, to the remarks made by Deputy Dillon and meet them, if he intends to do so, but remarks in respect of Deputy Dillon, per se, are not relevant.

Mr. Cogan

The remarks that I have dealt with were remarks made by Deputy Dillon in the course of this debate. He described this Estimate in words which have been picked out of his speech and used as scare-headings in the Press. He described this Estimate as a political stunt, as a dirty fraud, as a racket, as a political racket, and, as one Independent Deputy, I think I have a right to point out to another Independent Deputy that he is disgracing himself and dragging down the level of the debate on this important Estimate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us get on to the Estimate and leave Deputy Dillon out except in so far as his remarks apply to the Estimate.

Mr. Cogan

I wish to heaven that we could leave Deputy Dillon out.

Mr. W. Murphy

But you never can and you never will. Bear that in mind.

Mr. Cogan

He insists on coming in and defaming other Deputies, defaming the Parliament of this country and defaming this country in the eyes of the world. Leaving Deputy Dillon out——

Mr. W. Murphy

Leave him out.

Mr. Cogan

——we find that most of the Deputies who contributed to this debate did so in a very constructive way. There are very important problems to be solved in regard to the west. The most important, of course, and the most obvious to the eyes of all people inside and outside this country is the export from the West of Ireland of the finest young men and young women in the world. The first task of the Parliamentary Secretary should be to emphasise the value of those young people from an industrial and productive point of view. It should be brought home to industrialists, manufacturers and everybody who wants to establish a productive enterprise that in the areas to which the Estimate refers there is available the finest labour in the world. If that fact were emphasised, there might be a tendency on the part of manufacturers to go away from the City of Dublin, to go out to the areas where this exceptionally fine type of young people are available and to establish industries there. One of the first tasks of the Parliamentary Secretary should be to direct industry to the place where industry is required and where labour is in plentiful supply.

I think I have mentioned to the House before that there is an urgent need for what I would describe as immediate productive effort. There is urgent need to secure some immediate return from Government efforts to increase production. In that connection, turf should have first priority. As other Deputies have pointed out, the peat supplies in the West of Ireland are of first-class quality. For that reason, an effort should be made to develop them to the fullest extent. It would be desirable to ensure that the whole industry of turf production, from the moment the turf is cut until it is delivered to the consumer, should be organised on the most efficient lines. First, the bogs should be properly drained and made accessible. When the turf is produced, whether by mechanical means or by hand, it should be stored where it is required under conditions which will prevent it from deteriorating. It may be difficult but I think it should be possible to provide covered storage for turf, so that this Irish-produced fuel may be delivered to the consumer in the best possible condition.

Somewhat similar considerations arise in connection with the fishing industry. This island, situated in the Atlantic, should have the most up-to-date fishing industry in Western Europe. We should not rely on small crafts in reaping the harvest of the ocean. There should be put into operation sufficiently large and up-to-date boats that will be able to travel far out into the ocean. The whole system of marketing should be properly organised. I do not think there is any sense in trying to develop the fishing industry with small boats that are at the mercy of every gale. That industry should have most serious consideration by the Parliamentary Secretary.

With regard to the land, everything possible should be done to ensure that it is reclaimed, drained and improved and that maximum production is obtained. One thing that has always struck me, in regard to western counties particularly, is the lack of shelter. Wherever there is land which is not suitable for agricultural purposes but which will grow a shrub or a tree of any kind, even though it may not be first-class commercial timber, it should be planted. No matter how small the area may be, it should be planted. Where possible, shelter belts should be planted for the protection of agriculture in those areas that are unprotected by timber of any kind.

In this connection, the Parliamentary Secretary in his dealings with the Forestry Department will come up against this particular difficulty, that the Forestry Department do not wish to have anything to do with small areas of plantation. They seek all the time to concentrate on large areas. It is sometimes very difficult, as a matter of fact it is frequently very difficult, to secure the large plantable areas which the Forestry Department seek. For that reason, the Parliamentary Secretary should direct his attention to this question with a view to ensuring that wherever a small area, even if it be only an acre or two, can be obtained it will be planted by some means, whether under the auspices of the Forestry Department or by giving help to a local landowner or the local parish council or committee or cooperative society or anybody else so long as you get the timber planted.

It is now necessary to consider this question of afforestation from angles other than the angle of providing first-class commercial timber for housing and other essential purposes. Timber is now the raw material for the manufacture of many products. We have at present in Athy an industry using up vast quantities of scrub timber of all kinds for manufacture into wallboard or other products of that kind. Looking at the question from this angle, there are various types of timber which will grow on marsh land and wet land which are not suitable for housing, furniture and purposes of that kind but which could be the raw material of an industry such as that in Athy. We have large areas of such land in the country. Would it not be desirable to avail of these areas to plant trees producing soft timber, poplar, elder and trees of that kind, which would grow in a satisfactory way on that land and in that way not only make a contribution to the wealth of the particular area but also provide the raw material for valuable Irish industries in future? That is only one small point, but I think it is important.

I notice that in reply to a question to-day it was stated that £65,000 worth of toys was imported into this country during the past year. In toy-making and similar industries there is room for the employment of many people in areas where heavier and larger industries could not be profitably established. It should be possible in the congested areas to establish industries which would provide perhaps a certain amount of spare-time work or even piece work for people living in small holdings which they could do in their homes. On the continent of Europe many of the best industries are run in that way, industries which add to the wealth of these countries. A certain amount of work is given to the people to do in their own homes which they can do in addition to the running of their small holdings and which adds to the prosperity of these families, the prosperity of the different districts and the prosperity of the countries concerned.

Therefore, it is a good thing that the Parliamentary Secretary is a young man and a good thing that he has set out, as Deputy O'Hara pointed out, in an unpolitical way to do the work entrusted to him. Let him continue along those lines. Let him not be deterred by the abuse hurled against him in the course of this debate by Deputy Dillon. Let him ignore that completely and go straight ahead, keeping before him all the time the questions: what can I do to add to the wealth of the areas entrusted to me; what can I do to add to the measure of employment available to the people in those areas; what can I do to make the people of those areas happier, more contented and more prosperous? If he follows along these lines, he will ensure that the money we are voting will not be wasted but that it will return an immense dividend, not only to the areas concerned, but to the nation as a whole.

Mr. S. Flanagan

I should like to remind Deputies on the far side of the House, who so strongly object to any references to Deputy Dillon, that we on this side of the House had to sit while he poured vitriol on our heads on Thursday morning.

Mr. Cogan

We were not allowed to interrupt, either.

Mr. S. Flanagan

However, I am indebted to Deputy Dillon for something which he has now made perfectly clear at least to me. On an occasion in last June, he accused the Fianna Fáil Government of servile degradation. On Thursday last, he accused the same Government of corruption. Before a different forum, he accused the Tánaiste of being unwise. On other occasions, he accused the Fianna Fáil Government of being autocratic and of having a lust for power. At least, we now know that the Deputy has never made up his mind whether the Tánaiste is corrupt or merely unwise, whether the Fianna Fáil Government or Party are autocratic or servile.

Mr. W. Murphy

What has that to do with the Estimate?

Mr. S. Flanagan

It has this, that there is more credit due to the forgotten West of Ireland than to have it made the subject of ridicule in this House.

Mr. W. Murphy

Has it not been forgotten for a long time? Your Government were 16 years in office and they forgot about it.

Mr. S. Flanagan

Keep quiet.

Mr. W. Murphy

I will not keep quiet. As Deputy Dillon is not here, I will stand up for him.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Murphy will resume his seat. He will get an opportunity later on to make his own speech.

Mr. S. Flanagan

I would remind the Deputy——

Mr. W. Murphy

This has nothing to do with the question before the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Chair. It is for the Chair to decide on these points.

Mr. S. Flanagan

For too long the people of the West have been forgotten. Let them not now be used as the instrument of anybody's lust for power. However, I am happy to say that this debate represents a failure for Deputy Dillon because it did not continue on the level on which he started it. I am grateful to Deputy O'Hara and the other Deputies who treated this debate as it ought to be treated and that is with some proper appreciation of the difficulties of the people in the congested areas and in the Gaeltacht, difficulties that they have laboured under so long and that some real effort is now being made to alleviate.

We can assure Deputy O'Hara, I think, that the Parliamentary Secretary did not make a journey round the West and South and North of Ireland merely for the purpose of making a show. I think it is obvious that the Government did not create his particular office merely for the purpose of making a show. If that were so, the Undeveloped Areas Bill which will be debated here next week would hardly appear on the Order Paper.

I may possibly be able to help Deputy O'Hara, too, in connection with the point made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Bartley, that there is not any flight from the land. Deputy O'Hara joins issue on that. I know of many areas where there has been a flight from the land in the sense that the people have left their holdings and their homes leaving their lands either untenanted or sublet. I think Deputy Bartley was trying to make a distinction. I think he was trying to point out that there are people who do not want to leave the land and that there is not in the heart of the people in the West of Ireland generally a desire to leave. That is perfectly true. It is only when economic conditions force them to leave that they lock up and go to England or elsewhere. But these people are not flying from the land because of a deliberate prejudice for living elsewhere.

What we complain about is the enforced emigration of our people and the fact that they are compelled to leave the West of Ireland. Surely that is the point Deputy Bartley was making. It is, indeed, true that vast areas and whole villages are standing pretty well untenanted at the present time. I know that because the question as to whether one can or cannot sell land depends largely upon which side one's client lives on: if he lives on one side one can say to him: "Go home again"; but if he lives on the other side one can say: "You may get a price for that." There are areas where whole villages have been left without a single person.

The problems of the congested districts have been dealt with in previous Estimates. One of the biggest problems of the people in these districts is the eradication of a certain inferiority complex with regard to Government institutions. It is a fact that history has left a certain inferiority complex in the people of the West of Ireland. Possibly it all began with Cromwell when he offered them the choice of Hell or Connaught.

There is still a certain inferiority complex towards authority and I am afraid the State institutions are not going the right way about curing that. It is difficult to explain to a gathering of farmers that the division of a particular holding or estate was justly and fairly carried out when it is as plain as a pikestaff that it was not. I made an appeal in this connection before. I make it again now. Is there any way in which one can bring home to the people the rules and principles which guide the Land Commission in the division of land? Is it possible to demonstrate clearly to the people that these rules and regulations are carried out in practice?

On one farm division will be carried out on the basis of valuation and proximity. Why is the division not carried out on the same basis on a farm within two miles of the first farm? It is difficult to convince people that these things are done out of regard for their interests or their well-being. Is there any way in which the workings of the democratic institutions of our State can be brought home to the units of our democracy, that is our people? Is there any way by which they can be made to shed this inferiority complex and become what we want them to be, politically mature?

The Land Commission has often given out certain bogs and marked out certain boundaries but made no real efforts to drain them or to build roads. In the development of the turf areas a good deal still remains to be done. I think undeveloped areas of bog should be taken and drained and properly divided with roads cut through them even if that work will take three or four years. In that way it should be possible to have one specified tenant on each portion of bog.

There are cases in which people have been forced to redeem the annuity on a piece of bog when a holding was being subdivided though that particular piece of bog had always been inaccessible. It is hardly just or fair that that should be done and I might point out that these people never question the fact that the Land Commission made the advance in the first instance. They merely question the advisability of their being given a piece of bog at which they can never get and their being given money on interest and asked to repay that money and interest when they have to part subsequently with this piece of notional property.

If my suggestion were adopted, I believe the draining, development and subsequent utilisation of our bogs would be effected in a scientific manner and not in the haphazard way to which we have become accustomed.

There is one practical suggestion which I should like to make to the Parliamentary Secretary with regard to the rural improvement scheme. I am not too certain of my figures, but I think that at present 95 per cent. is contributed by the State where the valuations are under £6, 90 per cent. where the valuations are between £6 and £7, and 85 per cent. where they are between £7 and £8. There is then a category between £8 and £12 under which the State contributes 80 per cent. of the total cost. I would suggest, even though it would involve greater expenditure by the State, that these categories should be dropped, and that, instead, the scheme should be divided into three categories, under one of which 95 per cent. Would be contributed where the valuations on agricultural land, over the average of the six or seven holdings involved, would be £12 or under, 90 per cent. where such valuations were £20, and 85 per cent. where the valuation was £25 and over £20. In this way, the contributions from the people, which so often are a stumbling block as between getting a necessary piece of work done and not getting it done, would be greatly reduced, particularly in my area where the valuations would almost certainly be under £6 in pretty well every case.

I hope, while on that subject, that the Deputies who represent the Clann na Talmhan Party will possibly see their way to stopping this propaganda that Fianna Fáil are clamping down on the minor employment schemes. It is not true that Fianna Fáil are clamping down on the minor employment schemes, and it is not true that they introduced, or prepared, the Estimate introduced this year which admittedly was reduced as compared with last year.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. S. Flanagan

I am sorry, I thought it did. I will conclude with another reference to the River Moy which I hope does arise. In fact, I know that it does because the drainage of the River Moy is a daily topic of conversation among my constituents. I find it very hard to believe that the drainage of this river cannot be done in stages. It would take a number of engineers to convince me that you cannot drain it as far, possibly, as Ballina. It should be possible to start the work immediately to that point. You could then bring in the machinery which I and my constituents appreciate must be brought in if you are to continue the drainage further up.

I must confess that, when people inquire why the drainage of a particular river cannot be done, you have repeatedly to say "well, that cannot be tackled until the Moy is done," while at the same time much of the work which is being done under the minor employment and rural improvement schemes is not really beneficial at all. The reason is that the water is going into the larger undrained rivers and is causing still greater floods instead of effecting the purpose for which such drainage is intended, namely, to relieve flooding. I hope, however, that the Government will consider starting immediately the drainage of the River Moy to Ballina, or as far as ever it can be done, and, in the meantime, will obtain the machinery which will be necessary to complete the drainage which is so ardently desired by the people.

Mr. MacBride

I have little or no doubt that the introduction of this Estimate was based on political reasons or was inspired by political motives. I think that the smallness of the Estimate for the establishment of the post contemplated is an indication of that in itself. But, while that was undoubtedly the reason, the motive, for the establishment of this new post, I think it is a good thing that it has been done. I think, too, that it is a very good thing that the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Lynch, should have been appointed to this post because he is a young man who, in many respects, has escaped the taint of the bitterness of political life in the course of the last 30 years. I am prepared to give these proposals an absolutely fair trial.

I want, however, to point to certain difficulties which I think will meet the Parliamentary Secretary in the carrying out of the task which has been assigned to him. As I understand his position, he has no direct powers himself, he has no Vote and he has not money. He is a kind of fifth wheel without any direct power and with very ill-defined functions. I fear that he will find himself hemmed in by administrative difficulties of all kinds. Probably one of the most difficult problems of Government is that which arises from internal departmental conflicts, not led by the political heads of Departments but led, very often, by the respective civil servants——

Mr. Hickey

And engineers.

Mr. MacBride

And, sometimes, engineers—who all have achieved a certain degree of peace and quietude in their respective little niches in the Civil Service, and who merely have to wait for somebody else to be promoted or to die, so that they themselves may get promotion and eventually reach retirement.

The whole system, the organisation, of our Civil Service does not, I think, lend itself to a tremendous degree of initiative or efficiency. While I say that, I cannot say that I have any particular remedy to put forward in order to deal with that general difficulty. Inevitably, I think, you have to have a Civil Service. You have to have a Civil Service which is more or less permanent, and it is very hard to instil the degree of competition and initiative that you would have in outside undertakings. This is a defect from which civil services the world over suffer. I do not think our Civil Service suffers from that defect to a much greater extent than the civil services in other countries. Possibly it does because I think we are probably as a nation slightly more conservative than most nations.

The Parliamentary Secretary will have all these difficulties in his way. He will find that the Departments, instead of straining the leash to help, will strain the leash in order to point out difficulties and very often to create difficulties when they consider he is about to do something which may disturb the peace that reigns in the particular sections of the Departments concerned.

In addition to that difficulty, there is a certain amount of inter-departmental jealousy. Departments are jealous of their own powers. For instance, there is always a certain degree of jealousy between the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Agriculture—it does not matter who the Minister is, that conflict is there the whole time. A Department always resents any proposal which may result in a transfer of power from that particular Department to another Department. I merely mention these things so that the Parliamentary Secretary will have them in mind in dealing with the situation and will feel that there is a certain amount of understanding of the difficulties with which he has to contend.

Mr. Hickey

What about the Department of Finance?

Mr. MacBride

Of course, as Deputy Hickey reminds me, the most difficult Department of all is the Department of Finance which automatically blocks every forward proposal that is suggested to a degree which I have found is very foolish because, as a result, they cease to command the influence which a more progressive Department of Finance might command in a Government.

General MacEoin

They produced the White Paper.

Mr. MacBride

Yes, but even that defeats itself because it arouses considerable opposition.

General MacEoin

That was initiative on their part.

Mr. MacBride

If the Parliamentary Secretary's post is to have any reality in the final analysis, he will have to be given very well-defined functions and powers. I asked a number of questions concerning his functions during the course of the last few weeks. I must say I did not get any very clear answers in regard to them. I gathered from the statements made by the Tánaiste in his replies that he had no direct access to the Government, that his proposals had to be submitted, in the first place, to an inter-departmental committee of civil servants. An inter-departmental committee of civil servants can be one of the best means of killing a proposal. I understand that on that committee there are representatives from the Departments of Finance, Agriculture, Local Government, Industry and Commerce and Lands. Inevitably it will be found that any proposals that come forward will be opposed by one or more of these Departments and that many very plausible reasons will be put forward to prevent a proposal from being implemented or to delay or retard the implementation of a proposal.

One other warning I would like to give to the Parliamentary Secretary, if I may, is to resist any action that might possibly be construed as political propaganda in the discharge of his functions. I know there has been a good deal of criticism concerning his visits to the different parts of the country. I do not know whether the criticism was well-founded or not but in the discharge of functions of this kind it is essential that the Parliamentary Secretary should be in a position to command the support and co-operation of all Parties in the House and of all people throughout the country. I think he will get that co-operation, provided he ensures that his actions are above suspicion in the discharge of his functions. As we say in the law world, it is necessary that justice should not merely be fair but should appear to be fair as well. I think that in the discharge of his functions it is essential that the Parliamentary Secretary should not merely act non-politically but that he should also appear to act non-politically.

Possibly, in replying, the Parliamentary Secretary may be able to tell us exactly how he proposes to implement any proposals he intends to make, how he can secure the necessary funds, the necessary power, to put into operation any sound proposal which is decided upon by him. In the first instance, it will be necessary that he should have direct access to the Cabinet so as to be able to put these proposals before the Cabinet and, having secured Cabinet sanction, have full authority to implement the proposals without having to refer back to any inter-departmental committee or without having to go to the Department of Finance in order to obtain their leave and sanction.

There have been, over the course of the last 30 years, numerous efforts made by successive Governments to deal with the congested areas and with the Gaeltacht areas. There have been Gaeltacht Commissions appointed. I think at one stage there was a Parliamentary Secretary, if not a Minister without portfolio, appointed for this purpose in the early days of the first Fianna Fáil Government. But little or nothing resulted from all these efforts. It would be just too bad if this new effort was also to disappear into thin air after a short time, and I rely on the Parliamentary Secretary to be sufficiently energetic and strong in his approach to these problems to ensure that he will obtain some results from them.

In the final analysis, the depopulation of the West, of the Gaeltacht areas, arises from economic reasons, largely due to a lack of investment in our own resources. I do not propose to discuss this now. As far as I understand, the new Bill which is being introduced will probably give us an opportunity of discussing certain aspects of this problem.

Apart from lack of capital investment in the West, we also suffer from a lack of technical advice and the technical know-how. Deputy S. Flanagan spoke of the inferiority complex from which he considers portion of our people suffer. That is probably a slight overstatement of the difficulty. We lack technical experience and a technical tradition; therefore, we do not feel very confident in ourselves.

We are now in the position where it is possible to buy technical assistance and technical experience in the same way as one buys a commodity. In that connection, I would like to bring to the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary the possibility of utilising the industrial survey which is being organised in conjunction with E.C.A. and also the possibility of securing technical assistance for given projects in the West. This is a matter which I discussed on numerous occasions, both here and in America, with representatives of E.C.A.

In the final analysis, I think that the most lasting benefits which the Marshall Plan will have conferred on European countries will be the ones which result, not so much from financial assistance, as from technical assistance, which America, with her great fund of experience of technical development, is able to impart to less-developed countries. I feel that the Parliamentary Secretary would have little or no difficulty in obtaining the services of technicians and experts for the creation of new industries in the West, either from America, or indirectly, with the help of E.C.A. funds, from other countries. This is a matter which is well worth bearing in mind. There are a number of technical assistance projects which were put forward to E.C.A. and which have been accepted in principle. In my view, the Parliamentary Secretary would do well to examine them and to study to what extent some of these could be utilised in the discharge of his functions, with special reference to Gaeltacht areas.

I would like to take this opportunity to emphasise the vital importance of forestry as far as the whole of the western seaboard area is concerned. There are vast tracts of land in this portion of our country which can undoubtedly be utilised for forestry purposes. There again, I have no doubt that the Parliamentary Secretary will be met by opposition, even from the Forestry Division. The opposition of this division will probably be caused by the belief, and possibly the well-founded belief, that better timber can be grown, and grown more rapidly, on good lands along the east coast than can be grown on the west coast. That argument may be partially sound, but that is not an argument for the non-utilisation of land which is available in large tracts right through the congested areas and which is suitable for forestry.

We were told not so very long ago, some ten or 12 years ago, that it was impossible to grow timber west of the Shannon. I think that that argument has now been proved to be incorrect and that it has been established that it is quite possible to grow good timber on the west side of the Shannon and even in some of the most exposed positions of Donegal. In my view, the Parliamentary Secretary will need to be very firm in his dealings with the Forestry Division in order to ensure that a certain percentage of the annual planting programme will be devoted for social purposes to areas west of the Shannon, more or less on the lines indicated by the F.A.O. forestry expert who recently made a report on forestry in this country. The Parliamentary Secretary and the House will remember that Mr. Cameron suggested in his report that the forestry programme should be divided into two different sections, one for the growing of economic, commercial timber and the other for, what he termed, social afforestation in order to provide employment as well as timber.

There is one other matter which I would like to mention. It may be a small detail but it is one which the Parliamentary Secretary should keep in mind. It is the development which is taking place at the moment for the construction of turf-burning railway engines. Some of the difficulties in regard to the utilisation of turf in many of the western seaboard areas is the distance of bogs from large centres and the location of the bogs. If the development of these turf-burning engines is successful, and at the moment everything points to its being completely successful, it should be possible to utilise a lot of the bogs that are at the moment largely left derelict because of their location. This is a matter which Córas Iompair Éireann might well undertake, and which would be of particular value in both Kerry and Donegal. However, it would mean a certain amount of advance planning. I understand that final tests with the turf-burning engine are being carried out early in the New Year. If these tests are successful, it will mean the construction of a number of locomotives designed to burn turf. If these locomotives are to be put into service, it is already time to start planning as to the sources of the turf which they will burn.

The drainage and preparation of the necessary bogs will occupy a considerable period of time and, accordingly, I think that any time in the New Year it would be well worth the Parliamentary Secretary's while to have consultations with the directors of Córas Iompair Éireann on the whole question of turf utilisation by the railways.

As I said before, while I have no doubt that these proposals were originally conceived for a political purpose, I can assure the Parliamentary Secretary that, as far as I am concerned, he will receive all my co-operation in the discharge of his duties, and I am glad that he was appointed to the post.

Mr. W. Murphy

In rising to speak on this debate this evening, I believe that the Deputies on the opposite side of the House are convinced that I am rising to speak for the purpose of opposing the project which they have put in hands. However, that is not so. My attitude since I came into this House this evening has been what it always will be, to defend the name of Deputy Dillon when it is being dragged across the floor of the House while he is not here to defend it. The reason for my attitude is simply this: when I was a very young lad, I knew that the name "Dillon" was a name which was dreaded, and not only dreaded but respected, in the British Houses of Parliament. Surely to God, it should at least be respected in the Irish Parliament. So much for that.

At the outset, may I assure the House that I welcome this scheme, irrespective of the motives behind it? I welcome it because of the objectives which it is intended to achieve. I welcome it because it is at least something to show the people of the West that they can be awake to a bright future, a future which holds out something definite for them, that they need no longer emigrate, that they have something now to live for, something which will enable them to rear their families in the cultural environment and under the influence of the customs and traditions which they inherited. I welcome it also for another reason, a reason which applies not only to the West but to every single county in the whole Republic, namely, that this is one step to do away with the accursed "dole" and the system of unemployment which has played no small part in bringing about the situation which exists in the country to-day and which is one of the greatest problems facing us—less employment at greater cost. I can throw my mind back to the time when that system was introduced not so very many years ago, when men were paid to remain idle and inspectors paid to see that they remained idle, and, worse still, inspectors paid to go into the butchers' shops to see that the free meat which men would get to feed them whilst they were idle would be of the very best. That is a state of affairs at which the scheme now before the House is hitting. I am proud to be able to state in this House that even the labourers in Clare are disgusted with that condition of affairs at last.

Clare is partly linked with this scheme and I feel proud to be able to say that workers in Clare at present will accept the dole only when the needs of their wives and families compel them to do so. As a matter of fact, for some years past they have been leaving their homes and going to England to try to earn money to provide the home comforts for their wives and families which a native Government has time and again denied them. I realise that the Parliamentary Secretary in bringing this scheme into operation will have a big problem on his hands. Every county, of course, will require different treatment if the scheme is to be carried out as it should be carried out. I, as one of the representatives of Clare, would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to include not part of Clare, but the whole of the county, in the scheme. My reason for making that request is that, as is well known in this House and throughout the country, Clare has always been a cattle-raising county. To use a common expression, it is a cog, and a very big cog, in the wheel of the agricultural industry in this country. The land in Clare is divided into two different categories.

In the northern portion of the county, we have good land, the best of land, but unfortunately it is growing into "scrub". The land in the western, southern and eastern portion of the county always has been, and always will be, until something is done to remedy the situation, inundated, due to intermittent flooding. If the Parliamentary Secretary is to work this scheme to the fullest advantage, and to see that the land in Clare is brought to the greatest productivity as quickly as possible, he must ensure that drainage schemes in County Clare are pushed ahead. Under the inter-Party régime, due to the activity of Deputy Dillon as Minister for Agriculture, we had a drainage scheme there, but I would say to-night that until the main streams in the county are cleared, there is absolutely no use in a farmer thinking of draining his land. Until the main streams are cleared, there is no means of taking the water from the land.

I have another reason also for asking that County Clare as a whole should be dealt with under this scheme. In the eastern portion of Clare, in the neighbourhood of Killaloe, there was at one time a flourishing industry known as the Broadford slate quarry. If that quarry were developed, the slates would be very helpful and very useful in the housing drive about which we hear so much at the present day. These slates were of the highest quality. Since I came to Dublin, I have seen slates that were quarried there 100 or 150 years ago on houses in Dublin and they are as sound to-day as the first day they were nailed to the rafters. A number of other little industries might well be started under this scheme. When the scheme is put into operation, I intend, with the co-operation of other Deputies and Senators from Clare, to help the Minister in every way to make it a success.

I would ask the House and the Parliamentary Secretary also to remember that this scheme is something which no side of the House can claim specially as theirs. To my mind, every scheme taken up by a new Government is more or less inherited from the outgoing Government. I should also like to remind the House that the money spent under the scheme is not our money. It belongs to no one in this House; it is the taxpayers' money and, as such, it should be handled very cautiously. We should make perfectly sure that it will be spent on something which will be remunerative and from which we shall derive profit, not alone to-day or to-morrow, but 20 years hence. I would ask the Government to bear these considerations in mind and so far as I am concerned they will have my help at all times in their efforts to achieve the aims which they have set before the House.

Mr. J. Flynn

I consider that this scheme is the greatest advance that has taken place in the history of this country. It goes much further than the work envisaged by the old Congested Districts Board and I am confident that the Parliamentary Secretary will be successful in his work.

Whilst I do not wish to refer to the industrial aspect of the question so far as the Gaeltacht and the congested districts are concerned, I should like to refer to two points that could be dealt with immediately by the Parliamentary Secretary.

Great play has been made in regard to the matter of co-ordination and to the difficulty of obtaining assistance from other Departments and other Ministers. From what I know of Deputy Lynch, I believe he has that personality and that tact which is necessary to handle the problem successfully.

There are two points which I wish to bring to the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary. At the moment, we have a scheme of free meals for school children in the Gaeltacht. As a result of some misunderstanding or some bad management, these schools are segregated and some school children who should come within that scheme are excluded. Certain boundaries have been drawn up and certain zones have been formed and the free school meals are not available to children outside these boundaries or zones. I suggest that that is a matter that the Parliamentary Secretary should discuss immediately with the Minister for Education. I cannot see why all schools in the Gaeltacht and in the congested districts should not qualify in respect of that scheme.

The second point I want to deal with concerns Gaeltacht housing. At the moment, the position is that in congested districts the county council can supplement the Government grant by giving a sum of £150 or upwards. That applies only to Local Government Department grants. At the moment, the county council are debarred from making these grants available to people erecting houses under the Gaeltacht scheme. The Kerry County Council have made representations in regard to this matter on several occasions. They have asked the Government to introduce amending legislation whereby these grants can be made available. They desire that the county council should be empowered to give a grant to a man who is erecting a house in the Gaeltacht just as they are empowered to give a grant to a man who applies for a grant in respect of a house built under a public utility scheme, and so forth. I suggest that that is another item in respect of which we can have complete co-ordination between the Parliamentary Secretary's Office and that of the Minister for Lands.

During the course of this debate several speakers have mentioned afforestation. For the past three years we have been agitating for afforestation in certain rural districts. The stock answer which we have received is that there is not enough land available. Recently 200 acres were available in one group and, simply because the Department suggest that the minimum acreage for any plot should be 300 acres, such afforestation scheme could not be considered there. I submit that that policy must be changed if the Parliamentary Secretary's programme is to be put through for the benefit of the people in the Gaeltacht and in the congested districts. It has always been my argument that the standard policy for the whole country does not apply to the Gaeltacht and to the congested districts because, in these districts, the economic outlook is different and the local conditions are different.

Deputy Dillon has stated that the setting up of this Department is a political manoeuvre. I disagree with him in that statement and I can prove that it is not true. It is about 13 years now since I myself first proposed that a separate Ministry should be set up for the Gaeltacht and congested districts. I stated that until that was done and until these districts were treated as a separate entity, the congested districts and the Gaeltacht areas would never get what they were entitled to get. During the years which followed, certain efforts were made to try and meet our wishes but nothing concrete was done. This is a real effort. The matter must be tackled in a very determined way, with the full co-operation of all Departments and all Ministers. I should like this new post to which the Parliamentary Secretary has been appointed to be regarded as something tantamount to a ministerial post. I believe it can be made so.

Time and again, we have made comparisons between the Gaeltacht, the congested districts and the rest of the country. Take, for instance, the matter of the ground limestone scheme, which is an ideal scheme for certain parts of the country. How does that scheme work out for the smallholders in Ballinskelligs and Portmagee? These smallholders live over 100 miles from Buttevant, where the bulk of the limestone comes from. Just consider the cost of the transport of the limestone from Buttevant to where they live. I have made the case that there is an alternative solution to the problem. If there is a scheme that will prove more suitable to the smallholders in these mountainous districts, it is the duty of the Parliamentary Secretary now to go to the Department of Agriculture and say: "The ground limestone scheme is an ideal scheme up to a certain point but, from that on, it is uneconomic. It is difficult to cater for the people living on small mountainy slopes and, in these circumstances, would it not be advisable to provide them with an alternative scheme?" What about sea-sand which, in certain parts of our coast, contains a very high percentage of lime? Surely that could be substituted in the congested districts and in the mountainous areas for ground limestone. The Parliamentary Secretary should give serious consideration to that suggestion.

Mr. Dillon

Is not the sea-sand being used in West Kerry?

Mr. J. Flynn

Only to a very limited extent. I am just giving these as points where the Parliamentary Secretary could immediately adjust these schemes and make it possible for us right away to assist the Gaeltacht and the congested districts. I am leaving over the question of industrial development, as the Bill itself will be introduced in a very short time. I am making the case about the Gaeltacht district itself. There is no inducement there in regard to the export of shell fish or some industry in connection with that product. At one time in these Gaeltacht districts, there was an export trade but slowly and surely it was allowed to dwindle and now it has almost disappeared. Take the periwinkles and mussels. The Government of the day established a mussel plant in Cromane, County Kerry. There was an export trade to France for periwinkles and so on, but this shell fish trade has almost disappeared. From discussions I have had with the Parliamentary Secretary, I feel that this whole thing can be revived and a real effort can be made. I know there is an outlet and there is a possibility that, no matter how small the industry, if these products were dealt with locally and boys and girls employed, this work could be started in the Gaeltacht districts.

The big point I am making at the moment is that a number of schemes that otherwise would or should be available to us are not available. The general policy is not acceptable to our people. For instance, the Land Commission have a different policy in regard to the division and sub-division of land in Meath, Kildare, Limerick, Tipperary and all the other counties, to that policy which they have in the Gaeltacht districts. In the last Government's period of office, Deputy Blowick, who was Minister for Lands, increased the acreage from 25 to 35 acres in regard to an economic holding. In the other areas it was a question of valuation. The Land Commission have no conception at all of conditions in County Kerry. To the Land Commission, 40 acres mean nothing—but it is a substantial holding in the Gaeltacht. They have refused in many cases to allow these people to sub-divide holdings and allow their children to settle down there. That is an indirect way of forcing them out of the country. It is an imperial policy so far as the Gaeltacht is concerned. They have done very little for County Kerry, practically nothing. I will go into that another day and I will prove that in 27 years we in Kerry received only a fraction of what we should have got. I have got the figures, but I will not go into them right now. There was well over £1,500,000 spent in Galway and Kerry in 27 years and we received approximately £250,000. That is the total in estate improvements in these counties. That is the 27 years' record and all Governments are to blame for it. I am just quoting those figures now and I will go into it when that Estimate is available. I know very well that what the Parliamentary Secretary is trying to do is the right thing. It is very unfair to report it as a political business, as it is not political business. Deputy Lynch went to Kerry, where he met everyone, including the T.D.s concerned and everybody else; and they were anxious to give their assistance irrespective of Party politics. He had a proper approach to the problem and I am confident, from the impression he made in our county, that he has done the same all over. If there is one man to make a success of it, he will make it.

Mr. Beirne

I welcome this Estimate coming before the House, though at the present time I cannot make myself optimistic enough to believe that this scheme will be the unrivalled success it hopes to be. As it is in the charge of Parliamentary Secretary Lynch, who is a willing and able man—a man free from the taint of political bias, I presume, not being very long in political life—I am sure he will give it all the thought and consideration he can and will put all the effort he possibly can into the administration of this scheme.

He has visited various counties during his tour of the western seaboard but, unfortunately, we had not the pleasure of seeing him in Roscommon. However, I welcome the scheme so far as it includes my constituency. I see there is much to be done in my constituency, just as in other areas, in the application of these schemes. The first thing we must ask ourselves is: "Is there a need for it; where does the need arise, and how does the need arise?" I think we are all convinced that there is a need. I think the Parliamentary Secretary convinced himself during his tour that there is such a need. We must ask ourselves what has given rise to the necessity, why does it arise in the Gaeltacht areas and not amongst others. We can all answer that. Can we all answer about the remedies, what remedies should be employed to eliminate or eradicate from the Gaeltacht areas the difficulties that exist there?

We must examine the causes and then apply the preventive or bring the case to the curative stage if possible. One of the causes which brought about these things was, perhaps, a matter of technical advice to the people of the Gaeltacht. I do not believe that they are suffering from anything like an inferiority complex. I think that is a kind of slur on them and I wish to repudiate it. In all airts and parts and spheres of life, the people of the Gaeltacht areas and west of the Shannon have acquitted themselves admirably. Perhaps they have been neglected over a number of years. Their holdings were small and the attention they got from various Governments has been very small.

For that reason, even though I am not, as I said at the start, over-optimistic about the things which should be achieved under this measure, I hope and pray it will succeed and I wish the Parliamentary Secretary all the luck in the world in putting the scheme into operation. I can assure him that all the support I can give and can get from my constituency will be at his service and available to him at all times. I welcome the scheme. What are we going to do with it?

What is the intention of the Government? What difficulties or evils are we going to eradicate from the different areas? First of all, I believe the intention is to stop emigration and, secondly, to increase employment and do away with unemployment in those areas. If that is the case, if those are the ideals, I think we must examine the causes of emigration and the causes of unemployment in the western areas. What are they? I can summarise them in a few words. Works of development of a certain nature have not been carried out sufficiently in western areas. Drainage works, land rehabilitation, housing, rural electrification and the repair of certain roads have been sadly neglected. To make a success of this scheme, we must start at the foundation, at rock-bottom, and pay attention to the things I have mentioned before embarking on this big £2,000,000 scheme.

To make the people west of the Shannon contented and happy, to make life worth living for them, we must first provide for them certain essentials. We must provide employment and happy homes and give them a bit of good land which will be arable and produce good crops. This proposed scheme is a scheme which will not bear fruit in a very short time. It is a long-term scheme which will extend over many years before its good effects—if good effects come—are seen. I am still pessimistic in that regard, but I shall be very happy if the Parliamentary Secretary can induce me to become an optimist and show me that he can do these things in a very short time. I cannot see the scheme producing the good results I hope for—if I do not anticipate them—and which I presume the Parliamentary Secretary hopes for, for many years to come.

I am more or less at sea with regard to the form which this scheme of industrialisation in western areas will take, what the industries contemplated are and what we intend to do; but before embarking on this major scheme of industrialisation—I presume that is the object—we should try to remedy some of the other evils from which we in the western areas suffer. If we are to make the people happy and contented and induce even the one member of the family to remain on the small homestead, something must be done with regard to the repair and maintenance of cul-de-sac roads. This may not have a direct bearing on the Vote, but there will have to be some co-ordination of the various schemes designed to alleviate distress there, and, unless something is done with these inpassable and impossible roads, you cannot make any other scheme a success.

I further suggest that, although we have received increased grants under the rural improvements scheme—these increased grants came during the lifetime of the inter-Party Government— in these days, these grants require to be stepped up still further, because they are not at all sufficient. Housing grants also are insufficient in these times and the amounts made available for reconstruction and for the erection of new houses should be considerably increased. All these things will tend to make the people happy and contented and these facilities can be provided in a shorter time than is envisaged in relation to this great industrial programme. By making a start there, we will be starting on a good foundation and providing something which will encourage the people to stay at home.

I want to see no curtailment of money, so far as drainage is concerned. The Local Authorities (Works) Act had a rather hectic passage through this House, being voted against on eight different occasions by Fianna Fáil.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

They made it a better Act.

Mr. Beirne

I will tell the Parliamentary Secretary about that in a moment. If he had not intervened, he would not have heard this at all. That Act was voted against by the Fianna Fáil Party on eight different occasions, but I want that Act extended and expanded and in no circumstances do I want to see the money to be made available being curtailed. For the benefit of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, I may say that, in the first year of the operation of that Act, a grant of £50,000 was given to County Roscommon; in the second year, the amount given to County Roscommon was £51,000; but this year our grant is down to £33,000. If the Parliamentary Secretary can tell me that the present Government have improved the Local Authorities (Works) Act in face of those figures, I shall be delighted.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Who cut it down?

Mr. Beirne

Your own people.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Your own Minister for Local Government.

Mr. Beirne

The sum of £1,500,000 was voted last year for the implementation of that Act. Perhaps it would have been just as well if the Parliamentary Secretary had not mentioned that point. I do not desire to raise controversial matters in dealing with this Vote, because I feel that these schemes which the Parliamentary Secretary envisages will get the unanimous support of every member. I do not think there will be any opposition from any side or any Party. For my part, I said when opening my remarks that I would give him all the co-operation and help I could in carrying out his proposals.

I have been told that someone during the debate made reference to Roscommon and said that it should not have been included within the scope of the proposals, that it is a big ranchers' county and should perhaps not have been included. I say it should, and I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on having included it, because there is in North, West and East Roscommon acute congestion, people living on farms of £2, £3 and £5 valuation. Further, I have never seen the unemployment situation in that county worse. During the week-end, I had deputations from no less than four or five different areas of people seeking work. The employment situation is bad in parts of County Roscommon. That is no exaggeration and, that being the case, there is need in that county for something in the nature of development work, so as to provide employment.

There is also a good deal of emigration from Roscommon. From the north, west and east of the county, there are people going every day to England and the exodus in the past couple of months has been really alarming. I am not seeking to gain any political advantage from saying these things and I do not think that anybody can call me a very bigoted politician. I am here to do the best I can for the country, irrespective of Party or politics, and I believe that, on the opposite side, there are members who do not wish to gain political kudos out of these problems. They are honest men who wish to see every man prosperous, as I wish to see every man prosperous, irrespective of his politics or his position. There is, however, unemployment in Roscommon at present and I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should pay special attention to those areas in that county which I have mentioned.

I want to refer to our favourable position with regard to raw materials in the County Roscommon. We have one of the best raw materials we could have in the north of the county—the Arigna coal mines. Up to the present, these mines have not been utilised to the fullest. Tradition has it that there is an abundance of iron and other minerals in that area. For that reason, I would have liked had the Parliamentary Secretary come down to Roscommon during his visit to those other areas. He could have gone down to see those mines and discussed the possibilities of having them fully developed as well as exploring the possibility of securing more minerals in that area. It would be a visit that would have been well worth while.

If this scheme produces the results which it is hoped it will produce—and I am pessimistic about that at the present time—I shall be one of the happiest Deputies in this House. My desire—and as far as I know it is the earnest desire of the other Parties in this House—is to wish the Parliamentary Secretary all the luck in the world in regard to the big scheme he has undertaken. I believe he will have the co-operation of every sensible Deputy and of every Party in this House. I wish him the best of luck in his venture.

Mr. Corry

My complaint about this Bill is in regard not to what is in it but to what is not in it.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not a Bill but an Estimate which is before the House.

Mr. Corry

I am complaining, Sir, that areas in my constituency which should be included are not included.

An Ceann Comhairle

Included in the Estimate? The Deputy is anticipating the Bill which is not yet before the House. The Bill dealing with undeveloped areas is not before the House at the moment but will be this evening at 8 o'clock.

Mr. Donnellan

Then we will have it.

Mr. Corry

I want to make a few suggestions as to what, in my opinion, should be done. They are suggestions which I made in regard to those congested areas away back in 1940 and 1941. That is a long time ago. One of the suggestions was in connection with the growing of small seeds. I suggested at that time that the growing of those seeds should be completely confined to holdings around the £10 valuation. I think it is ridiculous to see the whole of the seed for the beet industry grown in a portion of Limerick. The return from growing an acre of beet seed would be from £100 to £150. That would be essentially an industry for a small holding. The same thing applies in regard to mangold seed, turnip seed, Swede seed, onion and parsnip seeds. There is a very big return for all these and they entail a good deal of intensive labour. I think the Parliamentary Secretary would be very well advised if he were to include those.

My main complaint is in connection with areas like Ballymacoda, Knockadoon, Ballycotton, Goilin, Whitegate and Kilworth. In my opinion these are congested areas. You have a condition of affairs prevailing around that sea coast which is unfair and unjust. It was only last Friday, on my return from the Dáil, that we were presented with a bill for something in the region of £1,500 to £2,000 in respect of a pier about which I have been appealing in this House for the past five or six years. The pier is now gone. It was taken away by the tide. In that area you have a condition of affairs in which the unfortunate people engaged in the fishing industry have had to cease purchasing any more boats because there was no protection for them in Ballycotton. There is no protection there at all, not even for the lifeboat. Appeals have been made for the past three and a half years, but the ex-Minister for Agriculture turned a deaf ear to them.

Mr. Palmer

Did you ever appeal for it before that?

Mr. Corry

A pretty considerable amount of money was spent there by the Fianna Fáil Government.

Mr. Donnellan

You made a bad job of it.

Mr. Palmer

You must have done it well.

Mr. Corry

I would also suggest the extension of the tomato industry there. In my constituency, people who started the tomato industry were able to employ from 80 to 120 men. If that can be done in one district, which you might call a pretty rich area, I cannot see why that particular industry could not be extended enormously to the poorer areas of the county and thus give employment. It is rather strange that all those industries in which there is intensive employment, having regard to the area of land concerned, are shoved out to the individual with from 200 to 250 acres of land and that you have no initiative or drive in the 20 to 25 acre holdings for that kind of work.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present,

Mr. Corry

As I was saying, I can see no reason why a proposal of the kind introduced should not provide for areas other than those mentioned.

That is my main objection. You have the Gaeltacht area of Ballymacoda and Knockadoon, where the average poor law valuation of the holdings is £8. Why is that area to get no benefit under these proposals? You have the whole line of country along the seaside, stretching from Knockadoon on the one hand to Whitegate on the other. I welcome the Bill but I am making suggestions that, in my opinion, will help to make it a success. I must insist that proposals of this description will embrace areas in my constituency which are congested and which deserve as much as any other portion of the country. You have the position with regard to fishing in the Ballymacoda-Knockadoon area. Endeavours were made to start small industries in the Gaeltacht there from time to time but now, apparently, the whole of that stretch of sea coast is to be left on one side. I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to consider those areas and see that they will get at least a fair crack of the whip.

We have had Deputy Beirne on the Local Authorities (Works) Act. It is not the first occasion in this House that an endeavour was made to state that the Fianna Fáil Party opposed that Act, which is untrue. Endeavours were made here to make the Bill at least workable.

Mr. Hickey

Now, Deputy.

Mr. Corry

I can challenge any Deputy in this House to get my proposals on that Bill and examine them from the first day it was brought in to the finish. Deputy Beirne and others who spoke for rural areas supported it and made damned good use of it. I was disappointed this year when I saw that the portion allotted to Cork County was cut down by the late Minister for Local Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is an Estimate of the £4,140 required for the salaries and expenses of Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeantar gCúng.

Mr. Corry

I am dealing with statements made by Deputy Beirne a few minutes ago on this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should deal with the Estimate.

Mr. Corry

I wish the Estimate every success. I have put up proposals regarding portions of my area that should benefit by it.

Mr. Donnellan

To hear new Deputies praising this Estimate does not surprise me in the least because they probably think that something will be done. My opinion is that nothing will be done. My opinion is that this is a certain amount of eyewash, again to shunt something over on the people of the West of Ireland and the Gaeltacht as other Acts attempted to do when Fianna Fáil was in power on previous occasions. You generally expect the Taoiseach to speak as head of the Government for the Government and to state exactly what the policy is. Speaking in the Dáil on November 21st on the Supplies and Services Act the Taoiseach mentioned the land rehabilitation project. In Volume 127 column 1102 he is reported as making the following statement:

"You have the land rehabilitation project and so on. My view is that if money were put into agricultural development, at the present time, it should at first be put into those lines which can give you almost immediate results—that is, to get lands that are short of fertilisers, lands that have not been brought up to their full productivity, and bring them as quickly as you can into full production. The first care then should be the lands which are capable of giving an immediate response to the efforts put into them. You will find, in the main, that these are the good lands. The next step would be to get the marginal lands, lands that are not so good. If these are properly utilised, they will give you a fairly immediate return. Let us next put any capital we have to spare into the less or worser lands so to speak."

The Parliamentary Secretary can estimate something that is going to improve——

Mr. Cogan

I would like to ask if that was a quotation from the Taoiseach's speech, particularly the last sentence in which he referred to the "worser" lands?

Mr. Donnellan

The bad lands. That is an intelligent remark from Deputy Cogan.

An Ceann Comhairle

I assume that the quotation is a quotation, and that the Deputy has quoted the words actually that are in the Official Report.

Mr. Cogan

Did the Taoiseach actually use the word "worser"?

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not know.

Mr. Donnellan

No, he did not. He meant the bad lands. If we have any money to spare, he says, then let us deal with the bad lands. They come third. A week after that statement the Parliamentary Secretary comes into the House with this Estimate. He intends to develop certain lands, I presume. I wonder where he will get this good land in the West. The Parliamentary Secretary has travelled the area, I understand, but I did not see him in North Galway. He went into the Gaeltacht areas fact-finding, as they call it. A few facts were found, I am quite sure. I believe that something which happened recently was responsible for this fact-finding, that is the fact that in Galway Fianna Fáil had lost two seats, in Mayo they lost a seat, in Roscommon they lost a seat, and in Sligo-Leitrim you may say that they lost another.

Again, in Kerry, another seat was lost by Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Cunningham

Get up to Donegal.

Mr. Donnellan

We were there. Do not worry. We were there before. That was the time the Guards removed you. You would not allow a T.D. to speak.

An Ceann Comhairle

I was not ever removed by the Guards for preventing a person from speaking.

Mr. Donnellan

I know.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy used the personal pronoun.

Mr. Donnellan

I meant Deputy Cunningham. He was not a Deputy at the time. The Guards had to remove him.

Mr. Cunningham

They certainly did not.

Mr. Donnellan

Of course, Deputies like Deputy Cunningham who have not been long in this House, might think something great would come out of the Bill. I hope something great does come of it but I believe there is not a chance. There was a leading article in the Sunday Independent calling on all Deputies to unite for the purposes of this scheme. It was a very well written article and meant well. I believe that there is no sense in the world in anybody expecting that anything good will come out of it.

For three years and three months I happened to hold office in Government. What did I find? The Arterial Drainage Act which had been passed in 1945 and which was acclaimed as a great Act, which it certainly was, was just one of the plans which were presented to the people and then left aside until I came along. I had to implement that Act of 1945 in the year 1948.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Good man.

Mr. Donnellan

That is the truth. I had to implement that Act and start work on it.

Mr. Traynor

You got the whistle.

Mr. Donnellan

There were in stock a few old rusty excavators that the Board of Works had had since the Barrow was drained in 1927 or 1928. That was one of the Fianna Fáil plans. Deputies think that when the new Bill is brought in it will be a great one. It will certainly get the good wishes of every Deputy but it will be in stock as one of the Fianna Fáil plans.

In this Estimate, there is a sum of £2,000,000 to be spent. If there is any sincerity behind this, that sum is useless. The people who, when they were in Government on a previous occasion, had plans to spend £11,500,000 on building a House of Parliament could afford to spend more than £2,000,000 on this Bill if it is to be a success.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Government (Mr. Lynch)

The Bill is not before the House.

Mr. Donnellan

It soon will be.

Mr. Corry

The only one who ever thought of that was Deputy Dillon. I read it out to you.

Mr. Donnellan

Deputy Dillon will deal with it.

Mr. Corry

That was the time you had the bats in the belfry.

Mr. Donnellan

The Minister for Lands, Mr. Derrig, said that the land rehabilitation project was only a big man's scheme, that most of the money was spent on the big farms, for farmers with hundreds of acres. I do not agree with him at all. The small man had the same chance under that scheme if he wished to avail of it.

We are told that there should not be any delay about passing this Estimate, that it should be allowed to go through the House without a word of objection or criticism. When I was in office, I had the interest of the West of Ireland at heart as much as any Deputy. I remember trying to do something in this House to help the poorer sections who had not a road into their villages or houses. I was trying to make a change in the rural improvements scheme. Under that scheme as operated by the Fianna Fáil Government the people had to contribute 25 per cent. of the cost. I tried to introduce an amendment to that scheme whereby a smaller contribution would be accepted from people with low valuations. The people who are now so worried about the West and the Gaeltacht areas are the very people who went into the Lobby and voted against me when I was trying to do my best to help those people. I think the present Parliamentary Secretary was one of those who went into the Lobby against me. Deputy Beegan, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, also went into the Lobby against it. To-day they are swallowing that very scheme and are carrying it out. We hear a great deal of ballyhoo from some of these people at the present time about the Gaeltacht and the West of Ireland. As far as I am concerned, I know that in any attempt I made to try to be helpful in the way I have referred to, I got very little assistance from the Fianna Fáil Party in this House.

It is a sad thing that there are still parts of the West of Ireland where people find it difficult to get into their houses and have not got roads into their bogs. If a few hundred thousand pounds were spent in that direction it would be of more value to the people of the West than the class of thing that is being talked of at the present time.

I happened to be in Galway City last night. I understand that at the county council meeting on Saturday there was a discussion as to when factories would be set up in certain places, and it was suggested that the people of Galway City would be smothered with the smoke, that it would be Birmingham the second, so to speak. When the Taoiseach was speaking in Galway he referred to the conditions under which Irish people live in Birmingham and other such places. I do hope that the people are right in their estimate of the smoke from the factories, but I am afraid they will be disappointed.

I regret that when the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Bartley, a man for whom I have a certain amount of respect, was speaking here on last Thursday, he was, for the first time in my experience, very bitter.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Bartley)

Do you not think that I got reason? If you were called a renegade, how would you feel?

Mr. Donnellan

I was listening to the Parliamentary Secretary. It was in reference to Deputy Dillon and the land rehabilitation project in Connemara.

Mr. Briscoe

It was in reference to a personal attack on him by Deputy Dillon.

Mr. Donnellan

I am referring to Deputy Bartley, the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Briscoe

He must not reply? He must swallow it?

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us hear Deputy Donnellan.

Mr. Donnellan

Probably that scheme was not as great a success as some of us thought it would be but certainly it was an attempt, at any rate, to improve the conditions in that area. The Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Bartley, referred to all the jokes that were made about the removal of the rocks. It is very easy to make cheap jokes. I believe that Deputy Dillon made an honest attempt to do something. It was not mere talk. Some work was carried out there. When the Bill is passed, I hope some work will be carried out, that at least some attempt will be made to improve the congested areas.

So far as the land of the Gaeltacht area is concerned, there is not much to be hoped from it. I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Bartley, when he said that something should be done in the industrial line for the Gaeltacht. As far as West Galway is concerned, at any rate, it is the only hope. If something cannot be done in the line of industry of some description there is not much hope as far as the land is concerned. Very little land there is of any use. Nothing can ever be done with quite a lot of it which would put it into a condition that people can live on it. I hope that this scheme will be a success, that it will not, like the Arterial Drainage Act, be left until some people come along to implement it.

I have great confidence in the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, Deputy Lynch. I know that he means well. When he gets the Bill through I hope that the Civil Service will not hold him hard and fast. When I was Parliamentary Secretary, I found when I had the best intentions in the world about doing something, that some rules or regulations held me up. I was tied up with a certain amount of red tape. I was honest enough to refer to it in the Dáil. If the Parliamentary Secretary finds himself tied up by any of this red tape which prevents him from carrying out what he intends to do, I hope he will come to this House and try to get that red tape removed. Above all, I ask him to see that the work will be started soon. The people are losing faith as they hear such a lot of talk and very seldom see any work started. I hope that this is not one of the plans which will be shelved and left aside; that we will not be told later on that it was one of the plans for which they were responsible. We are sick and tired of all this planning that is going on. There will be no opposition to this scheme by the group to which I belong. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to get on with the work as quickly as he possibly can. Any assistance I can give him he certainly will get.

Liam Ó Cuinneagáin

Is iomaí iarracht a rinneadh ó cuireadh Rialtas ar bun in Éirinn le cabhair a thabhairt ar an nGaeltacht agus ar cheantracha iarthair na hÉireann. Tháinig buntáistí as cuid de na hiarrachtaí sin, ach sílim gur gá iarracht mhór eile, agus sé mó thuairim go mbeidh rath ar an iarracht atá a dhéanamh anois, má leantar go dian léithí. Tá fear óg i gcionn na Roinne anois, Mac Ui Loingsigh, agus tá na cáilíochta aige atá fóirstineach don phost. Tá Gaeilge aige agus guím rath ar a chuid oibre.

During a number of years many projects were envisaged and some carried out in order to aid the Gaeltacht areas and the western areas generally. Some of these were successful in part, some not successful. On the whole, the feeling is that over the last 30 years the success which has been achieved is not anything like what is desired. There have been and possibly will be problems to be solved in the western counties. The method envisaged for tackling them is the proper method. In the last three years stress was laid on the development of the land. I know a great deal about the land in a number of western counties. It cannot be made to maintain a small farmer and his family. No matter what money is spent on it, it will not give full-time employment all the year round to a man and his family. The average period of employment given to a farmer on one of these small farms is about three months per year. For the other nine months he is compelled to migrate, to work on the roads, to engage in fishing or to draw the dole. By improving that man's farm you may give him work for four months of the year, but no amount of money spent on that land will improve it to such an extent that he can obtain full and profitable employment for himself and his family.

We are then faced with the fact that we must provide work that will give continuous and profitable employment, not work for the sake of giving some earnings to the people, like some minor relief schemes. They provide employment for a time but give no profitable return. Therefore, to put this matter on a proper footing you must provide continuous work which will give a return for the money spent. Industries must be set up in the Gaeltacht, in the congested districts and in the West generally, as they alone will provide that type of work. It is lack of continuous employment that causes emigration. It is only by having industries that continuous employment will be given. Therefore, factories must be established and grants must be given for their establishment.

The West, of course, has certain natural resources which can be profitably developed. One of these resources has been very much neglected hitherto. I hope that under the Bill which is to be introduced, and for which this Estimate is intended, the sea will be harnessed to produce the great wealth it is capable of producing. Other nations are cashing in on our sea wealth. I think it is very important that that free, natural source of wealth should be tapped to the limit.

Along our western seaboard and in our western counties there is bad land but in the main it is land suitable for afforestation. An all-out effort should be made to turn these wastes into forest land. That will not give an immediate return in production but it will give an immediate return in employment. Ultimately, when the full return comes, it will be a very profitable one on any money that is spent now.

Apart from the development of industries, the provision of employment and a reduction in emigration we should bear in mind also the question of cultural development. It would be wrong for us to develop the West fully from an industrial point of view and forget the cultural angle. Last week one of the Deputies on the Opposition Benches mentioned the question of parish halls. I think it was Deputy Palmer. It is important that there should be parish halls, be they erected by the G.A.A., the F.C.A., the Young Farmers' Clubs or some such body, or by the parish itself. In relation to such halls, I find that in the heart of the Gaeltacht the craze at the present time is for English and foreign dances. Not alone should these halls be used for dancing, but they should also be used for the production of plays, irrespective of whether they be Irish plays or English plays, for card-playing and other games which will afford the young people facilities for spending their leisure. Technical classes should be held in these halls and cultural development should go hand in hand with industrial development.

There are points I would like to mention, but I shall have an opportunity of making them when the Bill is under discussion. Last, but not least, is the question of the Irish language. I do not propose to deal with it now. A suggestion has been made by the Opposition that this development is purely political. We have been told that because two seats were lost in Galway, one in Mayo, one in Roscommon, and so on, this body has been set up. That is not so. It is a pity that people should impute ulterior motives to the Government in connection with this scheme. I was very forcibly struck by two points when reading the report of the Land Commission and the report on the land project. I have not studied them very minutely, but I looked down the column showing the amounts of grants made in the majority of the counties where the land project is in operation; they were a matter of hundreds. I saw in that column a number of figures running into thousands. On looking across the column I saw that those thousands related to Mayo, Galway and Roscommon. The same thing applied in the division of holdings under the Land Commission. These are the people then, who, because this scheme is a good one and will give good results if properly carried out, impute ulterior motives to our project.

Mr. Mannion

I have great pleasure in welcoming this scheme but, taking a broad view of it, I think a good many people will be disappointed. If one takes all the problems requiring solution from Kerry to Donegal, the amount of money to be spent under this scheme appears very small indeed. I am principally concerned with Connemara. I believe that if all the work that should be done in Connemara was done it would take at least half the amount of money sought under this Estimate.

We have a very old grievance. I intend to make only a passing reference to it. Deputy Beirne referred to the cul-de-sac roads. Those roads must be a nightmare to every Deputy from the West. Since I came to Dublin I have at least three or four letters waiting for me every day asking if I can get something done about this road, that road and some other road.

I know that in the past a lot of this work was left over until an election was coming off. Then, of course, whatever Government was in power would put a few thousand pounds into the work for election purposes. I can assure whatever Government is in power that that is a dead horse, as far as getting votes in the future is concerned, because the people have become too wise to it. Secondly, we have a housing problem. Again, I am only concerned with my own area. I would like the Minister concerned to take this advice—he may not have the chance of taking it again—that he should make the Gaeltacht grant available for everybody in the Gaeltacht areas and allow them the benefit of Section 7 of the Housing (Amendment) Act. If he does that, it will go a long way towards solving the housing problem in the Gaeltacht areas.

Like other Deputies on this side of the House, I am a little suspicious about this Estimate. Nevertheless, I think it should have been introduced long ago. If, however, it is intended to offset the effect of the land rehabilitation scheme, then it is doomed to failure. Whatever effects or whatever fruits flow from this Estimate, must flow side by side with the Dillon plan, because I am convinced that the Dillon scheme was the first major contribution ever made to raise the standard of living of the people in Connemara.

I have heard Deputy O'Hara speak about the Parliamentary Secretary's visit to his area. I have heard Deputy Cogan praise the Parliamentary Secretary for the way he visited and had conversations with everybody, but when the Parliamentary Secretary came to my area he had a Comhairle Ceanntair meeting in it.

Mr. Lynch

That is a deliberate falsehood.

Mr. Mannion

I am glad that the Parliamentary Secretary has denied it.

Captain Cowan

It should not have been said if there were no truth in it.

Mr. Mannion

It has been said all over the House that there were Party politics in the visit. I would feel much more delighted if I could get up and compliment the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Lynch

If you did not know it to be a fact, then you should not have said it.

Mr. Blowick

Is it in order for the Parliamentary Secretary to say that the Deputy was guilty of a "deliberate falsehood"?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair thinks that the word "deliberate" should be withdrawn.

Mr. Lynch

It is a falsehood.

Mr. Mannion

Might I ask the Parliamentary Secretary who called the meeting?

Mr. Lynch

I do not know what you are referring to.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a cross-examination here as to whether or not there was a Comhairle Ceanntair meeting in Connemara.

Mr. Blaney

What would be wrong with it, even if there was?

Mr. Blowick

With all due respect, if the Parliamentary Secretary on the occasion that Deputy Mannion refers to, accompanied by the officials of his Department, attended a Comhairle Ceanntair meeting, it was grossly irregular.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Mannion, when speaking, said the Parliamentary Secretary held a Comhairle Ceanntair meeting in Connemara and the Parliamentary Secretary denied it. That ends the matter.

Mr. Mannion

I said I would prove it.

Mr. Davern

Deputy Blowick had a few meetings in his time.

Mr. Blowick

Certainly, but I had not the officials of my Department with me on such occasions.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Blowick should allow Deputy Mannion to make his statement.

Mr. Mannion

There is something which I wish to bring before the House. I could not allow it to go that the same thing did not happen in my area. The meeting the Parliamentary Secretary had in Clifden was called by a Fianna Fáil county councillor. He sent out invitations to the different Fianna Fáil clubs in my area, and no other bodies were invited.

Mr. Lynch

I will deal with that.

Mr. Cunningham

Were you at the meeting?

Mr. Mannion

I had no interest in a Fianna Fáil club. We have in Clifden a fair number of business people. There were no other people invited except members of the Fianna Fáil club. We have in Clifden a very able town improvements committee, we have an anglers' association and a boat club. None of these people were invited to it. If the facts are as I say, I cannot see how it can be described as anything else but a Comhairle Ceanntair meeting.

Mr. Blaney

How did you know it was to take place?

Mr. Mannion

There were invitations sent out.

Mr. Cunningham

There were no invitations in Donegal. The meeting was announced and it was open to the general public.

Mr. Mannion

I am giving the facts. I could not be expected to know what happened in Donegal, and a Donegal Deputy could not know what happened in Clifden.

Mr. Cunningham

We are asking you to take the Parliamentary Secretary's word for it.

Mr. Mannion

I will get away from that. Under the Bill which is to come before the House, we in Connemara expect—I have already referred to roads and houses—to have some factories erected there. We have an abundance of raw material in Connemara. We have peat, we have Connemara marble, and we have fine and coarse wool, but we cannot have factories without finance. Under the terms of this scheme we expect to get the finance and the power we require. You cannot have industries without power. Last week I asked the Minister responsible when the Electricity Supply Board would be giving a supply of electricity to my town. I was told that it had been shelved until next summer, and that the matter would be considered then. There are few areas which can boast of the same amount of raw materials as we have. I would respectfully suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that, if he is interested in Clifden, he should go down there and meet the people of the district, and also the Clifden Town Improvements Committee. They would probably put schemes before him. If he is coming again let him come as a Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Secretary on a fact-finding tour for the purpose of meeting everybody in my area.

Captain Cowan

I feel that Deputy Mannion has missed the real purpose behind the appointment of the Parliamentary Secretary to his present responsible position, and particularly the purpose of the Vote that is before the House at the moment and of the Bill which is scheduled to come up for discussion in an hour's time. I look on this whole development as entirely desirable. I think it is the feeling of every person who has been concerned with our seaboard areas, particularly with the western seaboard areas, that some such co-ordination of effort should have taken place quite a long time ago. I look on all this as a genuine desire to make money and machinery available for the purpose of increasing the standard of life of the people in Connemara and along the western sea coast generally. While such matters of roads, mentioned by Deputy Mannion, will undoubtedly arise, they are really minor matters in comparison to the tremendous work that can be done by the Parliamentary Secretary if he has the full support of this House behind him. I feel, when a measure of this kind comes before the House, that it is much better that it should be discussed on its merits rather than that it should be criticised from a purely political point of view. I am glad that very few Deputies are following the line set in this debate by Deputy Dillon, who, at least as far as I am concerned, was most disappointing and who lowered himself to what I might term the Deputy Oliver Flanagan standard.

Mr. W. Murphy

They are not here now.

Captain Cowan

I cannot help them if they are not here.

Mr. W. Murphy

This has nothing to do with the Bill in any case.

Captain Cowan

You are quite right. Deputy Dillon's criticism had nothing to do with it. The allegation of corruption is, I feel, most undesirable. I am perfectly certain that when this machinery is put into operation there will be no person more keen, and rightly so, than Deputy Mannion, and the other Deputies representing those areas, in getting from this new authority everything that they possibly can for the people they represent. The sum of £2,000,000 is not a very substantial sum, but it is only the beginning. It is the initial sum to be spent on a process of development that is going to do for the Gaeltacht areas what undoubtedly should have been done for them during the past 25 or 30 years.

I think we should approach this scheme on the basis of its being a sound idea, that the Parliamentary Secretary and the Government will have unanimous support in putting it into operation and that, if they fall down or fail on the job, they will be criticised from every side of the House. This is pioneering work of the greatest importance. It must be carried through with pioneering zeal and with enthusiasm. I, for one, am certainly satisfied that, as far as the Parliamentary Secretary is concerned, he will carry this scheme through, so far as lies within his power, with zeal and with enthusiasm. The more support he can have from all sides of the House the better it will be for him in overcoming the many obstacles that are placed in the way of a new Department such as this which will have to handle many problems of tremendous magnitude in the interests of the people. I have some personal connection with Connemara. I spend as much time as possible down there.

A Deputy

What part?

Captain Cowan

Carraroe, and I have a love for the people of that area. I certainly welcome any measure which is brought forward in this House to improve the standard of living of people who are undoubtedly some of the finest in the country. The people of Connemara are not afraid of the hardest of hard work. They toil for existence against every conceivable danger. They are keen, independent people who see in this new idea the things for which they have been crying out for many years. I think we would gravely disappoint those people if we were to wreck or endanger this new idea just because of political differences. Deputy J. Lynch, as Parliamentary Secretary, has the responsibility of initiating this scheme. If he does this work, and I believe he will, his name will be remembered for all time in the areas scheduled for development. I, and I am sure every other Deputy in the House, would like, in the years to come, to be associated with him in the success of this particular scheme. If I can make an appeal to Deputies, it is this: Give all the support and the help that can be given to the Parliamentary Secretary because to him has been given a most onerous and a most responsible task.

It is a task which any Deputy should be proud to be asked to carry out, a task which will provide well-paid employment for the people living in the particular areas referred to in the Bill, one which will help to increase their standard of livelihood, one which will reduce the necessity for emigration and one which will leave families in those areas together for a much longer period than it has been possible to leave them together during the past century or so. It is a tremendous task and one that should meet with the full support and enthusiasm of every Deputy, irrespective of his political affiliation or line-up in this House.

Mr. Cawley

It is not my intention to detain this House very long. I welcome the Bill for the reasons that were stated by other members of the House, including the last speaker, Deputy Cowan, because it is for the better development of the homes of the people of the country. There has been a lot of talk here about industrial development. You must take industrial development side by side with agriculture. I come from a congested area, the area of the congest farmer who is a mixed farmer, and in order to help him the type of industry which should be established in this country is an industry that would be a help to agriculture and also an industry that the farmer would be able to help. I do not believe that the amount of money that is being spent on this scheme would be adequate or sufficient for these areas because if you develop industry in the West as it was enjoyed in the past under an alien Government there is one industry which should be established there and that is a distilling industry that Galway once enjoyed and enjoyed side by side with the coast of the South Galway constituency to Kinvara, the best barley-growing district in Ireland. If you had an industry of that type it would be a benefit to the farmers in that area and it would win back for them what they enjoyed once—tons of prosperity even under alien government.

Another thing which was referred to by Deputy S. Flanagan across the floor of the House which, in my opinion, it is important to discuss, is the question of drainage. You cannot have success on your land if it is waterlogged and in the West we suffer more to-day from waterlogged land than ever before. To start with, some of this money will have to be devoted to the drainage of the land of the West. In my own locality, after heavy rains, it is nothing to see a rising flood of 12 feet. Anybody in the House might say: "How is it that did not occur 20 years ago?" My answer to that is this. The scheme for the drainage of the West of Ireland started at the source and not at the outlet. Just beyond my own place there is a big commonage of about 800 acres of land and there is a river bed in that. When the water comes down that commonage becomes flooded. That creates a backwater and it floods thousands of acres of land all over my constituency. This is one of the things that should be dealt with under this project and it should be started at the shore because the Dunkellin is a very important river which runs into the sea at Galway. It drains the land from Kilcolgan, the outlet and, as Deputy Beegan can assure the House, over to his own district. It drains the bogs in Karneykelly; the bogs there last year had a very good job done on them. It will be all wasted if you are going to develop one area and destroy another.

I would appeal to the Minister concerned that when these things come before him he will consider drainage. It is my view that it is the first consideration for the development of the soil. There are other schemes for the development of the soil—soil-testing schemes, fertilising schemes, and all the rest—but they are useless if the land is not drained. If this question comes before the House at any other time I will always pursue the course that drainage in this country could be better accomplished if started at the outlet. I will give every co-operation in the development of that scheme provided it is for the benefit of the people.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

I will not detain the Parliamentary Secretary very long. I would state that when the Bill was introduced last week the Leader of the Opposition, General Mulcahy, welcomed it on behalf of the Opposition. Before it had gone very far—and the Government Benches are not free from blame—the discussion became acrimonious. We looked to the Minister for Lands, as head of the Department closely concerned with this, to give a lead to the ensuing discussion. Instead of that we had an hysterical outburst which certainly did not augur very well for the following stages of this measure.

I believe that the natural reaction in the country to the introduction of this measure is that it is something that is long overdue, but we may be forgiven for associating its introduction now with the political reversal suffered by the Fianna Fáil Party in the areas which it is intended to cover under the scheme. I was amazed a few minutes ago to hear Deputy Cunningham make such a case for what has been achieved by the land project in parts of the West. Naturally, it ran into four figure expenses in these counties because it is there that you have so much self-employed labour. It is there that the scheme is particularly desirable and it is there that the most benefits can accrue to the people as a result of the carrying out of the land project. Consequently, the people availed of it; the labour was there to be put to work on it. It was only a few months back that it came into operation even in County Dublin. Therefore, why should any wrong inference be taken from the fact that so much more money was spent in these western counties? I hope that in the implementation of this scheme continued attention will be given to cattle diseases and the drainage of the land because I know that where you have stagnant water you have the breeding-grounds for all the ills, such as fluke and hook, that affect the cattle industry.

An oft-repeated untruth was resurrected in the course of the early stages of the discussion by one Parliamentary Secretary when he stated something which has been refuted time and again, and that is, that the inter-Party Government were responsible for the stoppage of the hand-won turf industry. That is not so.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

With all due respect, the Parliamentary Secretary stated in the opening of this discussion here on the last day we sat that it was so. I wish to refute it. It has been said time and again, but there in the Report of the Department of Local Government for 1947 and 1948 we find that this circular was issued from the office of the Minister for Local Government.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That matter does not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

I know, Sir, but the Parliamentary Secretary was permitted to make the point and I am just dealing with it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have ruled it out of order.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

I am sure another opportunity of dealing with it will be presented.

Mr. Bartley

Would the Deputy read the report of my statement again?

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

At column 82, Volume 128, Mr. Bartley stated that the inter-Party Government were responsible for the stoppage of the hand-won turf industry. That was refuted by Deputy Sweetman.

Mr. Bartley

Read out what was said about it.

Mr. Blowick

What you said about it was probably what you have been saying all the time about it.

Mr. Bartley

You keep quiet.

Mr. Blowick

The turf industry was hit when the Minister for Industry and Commerce in the Fianna Fáil Government brought in several thousand tons of coal in 1947.

Mr. Bartley

You do not want him to read what was said last Friday.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy O'Sullivan is in possession.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

I am quoting from what the Parliamentary Secretary said on last Thursday. Referring to the turf industry, he said:—

"I think the Deputy on the far side who referred to the turf industry not being permanent could more decently have remained silent, because it was the turf industry that suffered on the coming into office of the Coalition Government."

The Report goes on:—

"Mr. Sweetman: If the Parliamentary Secretary wants to start a row, he can take that line. It is there on record that it was the Minister for Local Government, then Deputy MacEntee, who stopped the hand-won turf scheme.

Mr. Bartley: As Deputy Sweetman has intervened, will he answer one question? Were the staff, who were to carry on this hand-won scheme in Connemara, appointed by the Fianna Fáil Government before they went out in 1948, and were they dismissed three weeks after the Coalition Government came in?

Mr. Sweetman: I do not know how Comhairle Ceanntair carries on its business, but the circular was sent out by Deputy MacEntee.

Mr. Bartley: Let the Deputy go down and stand outside any church in Connemara and state that it was Fianna Fáil who stopped the hand-won turf industry and he will see what will happen."

Mr. Bartley

Let Deputy O'Sullivan go down to Connemara and ask whether Deputy MacEntee issued the circular or not.

Mr. Blowick

Do you deny that the circular was issued?

Mr. Bartley

Go down to Maam Cross and make that statement and you will get your answer.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Perhaps Deputy O'Sullivan will get back to the Estimate now.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

I come from a constituency that is not very closely concerned with the Gaeltacht but, nevertheless, the Minister for Lands in his reference to the Gaeltacht struck a rather hopeless note about the smaller parts of the Gaeltacht, apart from a large area or two in Connemara. Bordering on my constituency in County Cork is the Ballyvourney area and we wish to make the case that that particular area does not seem to be included in the scheme now before the House. We feel that under this Bill you will have on one side of a river people regarded as being in congested districts and availing of the £2,500,000 provided——

Mr. Lynch

There is no Bill before the House.

Mr. Blowick

It is the duty of the Chair, not your duty, to point that out.

Mr. Gallagher

City Deputies know all about the turf industry and who stopped it.

Mr. Blowick

What about the coal you brought in in 1947?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy O'Sullivan.

Mr. Gallagher

If his daddy would leave him alone he would be much better off.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would ask Deputy O'Sullivan to keep to the Estimate and to refrain from referring to a Bill which is not before the House.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

My intervention was only for the purpose of calling attention, before the debate concluded, to that inaccuracy of which some member of the front bench of the Government was guilty in the introductory stages. At this stage I do not wish to prolong the debate further.

Sean Ó Loinghsigh

Tá mé buioch des na Teachtaí a chuir fáilte roimh an meastachan seo. Os rud é gur labhair mé as Gaoluinn ar dtus, agus go bhfachtas dom nár thuig a lán Teachtaí an méid a bhí raite agam, sílim go mba fhearr dom labhairt as Bearla anois. The debate on this Estimate has inevitably wandered over a very wide field and, in the circumstances, I cannot blame Deputies to any degree for references, that were irrelevant, to the Undeveloped Areas Bill. That Bill will be before the House at 8 o'clock; therefore I shall not detain the House by making any further references to it at this stage. The debate varied from the good, sound and welcome advice offered by some Deputies to the tirade undertaken by Deputy Dillon to which I do not intend to refer. I do not want to follow Deputy Dillon along the lines he set for me. I do not believe they were helpful to a solution of the problem of the Gaeltacht. They certainly were not helpful in securing an intelligent debate on this Estimate. There are some points in his remarks to which I shall have to allude, but beyond that, I do not intend to follow him in the particular line which he adopted.

First of all, I want to make it clear to the Dáil that the sum which the Dáil has been asked to vote has reference only to the salaries and expenses of the office which has been created. There is no provision for any development undertakings at the moment. The office, as everybody knows, was set up only recently, and the salaries of the small number of officials concerned have to be provided in this Estimate for the rest of the financial year. There is no suggestion of any amount of money, either adequate or inadequate, being devoted to any particular part of the Gaeltacht or congested districts. The function of the office, as most Deputies are aware but which some Deputies do not seem to understand, is a co-ordinating one. Its function also is to initiate schemes for the better development of the Gaeltacht, and to assist any other Departments set up for that purpose. Both aspects of these functions are being pursued actively, not only within Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeantar gCúng itself, but by the inter-departmental committee which has been set up, and the function and the purpose of which is to advise and to assist me in examining many of the proposals that are placed before me and many of the proposals that I myself will place before that inter-departmental committee. I have stated that it will be my function to initiate proposals through other Departments of State. Deputy MacBride put down a question recently which the Tánaiste answered, and the answer to which Deputy MacBride apparently misconstrued, because he asked in a supplementary question:—

"May the Parliamentary Secretary put forward a proposal to the Government without its first passing through this inter-departmental committee?"

The reply was:—

"I think he would be wise to seek the advice of the committee on the proposal, but there is no obligation on him to do so."

I want to point out that it was never intended that any body of civil servants should be in a position to make suggestions that I should carry out. Many of the proposals that are under examination in my office did not come before the inter-departmental committee. One of the proposals which recently has been examined, and is still to a certain extent under consideration, was brought by me direct to the Government and I am happy at this stage to say that I have got approval for this particular project from the Government. It refers to the growing of grass for the production of grass meal on the Bangor Erris bog in Mayo. I think that Bord na Móna have already acquired that bog. They are about to undertake the drainage of it and, in conjunction with the drainage of that bog, it is proposed to acquire temporarily portion of that bog from Bord na Móna for the purpose of growing grass for the production of grass meal. Grass meal is a feeding-stuff which has a very high nutritive content for animals. It is a sound marketable product. I believe that when this scheme is put through it will prove beneficial not only to the country in general but to that particular district from the point of view of the amount of employment it will give. At the same time it will depend to a large extent on experiments that are being carried out elsewhere. In the meantime, legislation will have to be prepared, the drainage of the bog will have to be completed and heavy machinery and plant will have to be procured—so it is a scheme that will not start very soon, though we hope to start it in the course of time. That was one particular scheme in respect of which I was in a position to go directly to the Government for approval.

I appreciate the manner in which Deputy Mulcahy approached the debate on this Estimate. He believes that a certain amount of co-ordination is necessary. During his term of office as Minister for Education, Deputy Mulcahy made efforts to co-ordinate certain functions within his Department so far as they referred to Gaeltacht areas. He made two suggestions which I appreciate, even though I had already taken steps on similar lines. The first was in regard to the selection of focal points for development and the second was in regard to reports by the three special Department of Education inspectors who operate solely in Gaeltacht areas.

With regard to the selection of focal points for development, I referred in my opening remarks to a sub-committee of the inter-departmental committee which was set up specifically for that purpose. It is representative of different Departments and different sections of administration in which activities are undertaken for the development of Gaeltacht and congested districts. I might refer in particular to marine works where the responsibility for undertaking them and carrying them out is not very well defined; also, to drainage and roadmaking where responsibility as between the local authority and the central authority is not well defined—and even where the Government Departments have a responsibility it is not certain which particular Department has that particular responsibility in that particular case.

These matters are being actively pursued by this sub-committee. Every Deputy will appreciate that unless the responsibility is placed somewhere it will be very difficult to undertake or pursue any development works in these areas. I am obliged to Deputy Mulcahy for the suggestion but he will appreciate, having regard to these remarks, that steps have already been taken in that direction.

With regard to reports from inspectors from the Gaeltacht areas, to which Deputy Mulcahy also referred, it was brought to my knowledge some weeks ago that these reports would be available in the near future. I have asked the Department of Education to make sufficient copies of the reports available so that they may be examined and considered in detail by the inter-departmental committee. I have had a cursory glance over them. I believe they will be of immense benefit to me and to the inter-departmental committee in connection with any matters they examine arising out of these reports.

Many Deputies have laid particular stress on the necessity for afforestation. Deputy Blowick, in particular, has suggested that the proper utilisation of the lands in these areas is afforestation. I can assure him and Deputy Cogan and Deputy MacBride, and the other Deputies who referred to it, that forestry is receiving a very high priority in the deliberations in my office and by the inter-departmental committee. I can endorse what Deputy Blowick said with regard to the help which is forthcoming from the officials of the Forestry Division.

It would be difficult to deal with every speech that has been made but I should like to refer to some remarks made by Deputy Dillon. First of all, as almost everybody in the country must have read, he said that the setting-up of this office was "a political stunt,""a dirty racket"—and he used various other adjectives, too. I have no intention of following Deputy Dillon along these lines. I have a certain amount of pity for him that his hatred of the Taoiseach, and of the political Party of which he is the head, should so obsess him as to make him descend to such a degree of degradation inside this House or outside this House. I believe that that hatred is born of a certain amount of jealousy of the status which the Taoiseach has achieved in this country and of the importance of the Fianna Fáil Party throughout the country. Although at the beginning Deputy Dillon gratuitously tried to dissociate me from his remarks, inevitably he brought me in. I am in charge of this office and I have no intention of dispensing any patronage whatsoever. Deputy Dillon suggested that the office was set up solely for the purpose of organising the districts in the West of Ireland where Fianna Fáil had lost a seat and to dispense patronage in order to ensure that, wherever a seat was lost or might be shaky, the position would be retrieved.

At this stage I might refer also to remarks made by several other Deputies during the course of the debate. They made insinuations or direct allegations that I, in the course of my tour of the western districts, used the occasion for purely political purposes. The reverse was, in fact, the case. I took every precaution to ensure that no political tinge whatsoever would be given to any visit I paid to any part of the country. I notified every Deputy in advance— irrespective of what Party he belonged to—of my intention to visit his part of the country. I told him exactly where I was going and the times I would be holding meetings.

Mr. Mannion

The Parliamentary Secretary is telling a deliberate lie.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must withdraw that statement immediately.

Mr. Mannion

I withdraw it, but I should like to inform the House that I was not notified when the Parliamentary Secretary was coming to my town.

Mr. Bartley

I am a Parliamentary Secretary and I was not notified either. A public notice was issued.

Mr. Mannion

There was no such thing. The Parliamentary Secretary has said that every Deputy was notified in advance.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has already spoken on this Estimate. The Parliamentary Secretary to conclude.

Mr. Lynch

Notices were sent from my office informing Deputies that if they had any representative organisations they would like to attend I should like to hear them. It was suggested to me by units of the Fianna Fáil organisation here and there—not everywhere— that I should meet them. I replied to every one of them that if they had any proposals to put before me they should come to the meeting where I expected that every shade of political thought and every representative body would be in attendance.

I made no special provisions whatever for the holding of any Fianna Fáil meetings, good or bad. In most of the places I went I did not even know the people whom I met and did not know to what political organisations they belonged, if they belonged to any. I took the utmost precautions to ensure I would get the goodwill of everyone in carrying out these visits and in trying to get what benefit I could out of them.

In the course of his remarks, Deputy Dillon said that the activities of this office would be related to the nine counties in which Fianna Fáil lost seats in the last election. I am not aware that there are any such nine counties, but I might remind Deputy Dillon and the House generally that in the two biggest Gaeltacht areas in the country, Connemara and West Donegal, Fianna Fáil have maintained their representation and have succeeded in increasing their poll in the last election and before ever this office was established.

Mr. Cawley

Surely you do not claim that for Connemara?

Mr. Bartley

Yes. The Fianna Fáil vote increased.

Mr. Cawley

Our vote was increased by 2,000.

Mr. Bartley

Yes, but so was ours. You took from Clann na Poblachta. The inter-Party vote dropped and ours went up.

Mr. W. Murphy

Without wishing to interrupt——

Mr. Lynch

That is just what the Deputy is doing.

Mr. W. Murphy

Did you visit the County Clare?

Mr. Lynch

Not yet. I had not a chance yet. In my opening statement, whether the Deputy was attending or not and listening, or if he listened perhaps he did not know any Irish——

Mr. W. Murphy

I do not know very much Irish. The Parliamentary Secretary could be cursing me.

Mr. Lynch

——I said I had received invitations from districts other than those I visited but that the time at my disposal did not enable me to visit them all.

Mr. W. Murphy

Very well.

Mr. Lynch

The Deputy need not be trying to score points.

Mr. W. Murphy

When you come to Clare I will receive you with open arms.

Mr. Lynch

The Deputy will be informed well in advance. Deputy Dillon suggested that the areas defined in the Undeveloped Areas Bill—I do not intend to refer to the Bill beyond this—were deliberately selected in order to retrieve the political situation which he alleged Fianna Fáil had lost. The areas as defined in Section 3 (2) of the Bill are exactly as defined in Section 46 (1) of the Irish Land Act, 1909. It was extraordinary foresight on the part of the framers of that Act that they should envisage that Fianna Fáil—an organisation which was not in existence then—would be putting through this Act for political purposes, because, as Deputy Dillon alleges, Fianna Fáil is supposed to have lost ground in those areas. It is worth while putting on record the terms of Section 46 (1) of the Land Act, 1909:—

"For the purposes of the Congested Districts Board (Ireland) Acts, as amended by this Act, each of the following administrative counties, that is to say, the Counties of Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon, Mayo, Galway and Kerry shall be a congested districts county, the six rural districts of Ballyvaughan, Ennistymon, Kilrush, Scariff, Tulla and Killadysert in the County of Clare, shall together form one congested districts county, and the four rural districts of Bantry, Castletown, Schull and Skibbereen, in the County of Cork, shall together form one congested districts county."

If anybody cares to compare that section with Section 3 (2) of the Undeveloped Areas Bill, he will find that those areas are exactly as set out in this Land Act of 1909.

Mr. MacBride

Would the Parliamentary Secretary give the reference?

Mr. Lynch

Irish Land Act, 1909, Ninth of Edward VII, Chapter 42. Deputy Dillon made particular reference to the County Roscommon and suggested that there was not a congested area for something like 30 miles from Strokestown west. As the reports of the House show, Deputy Dillon spoke on the 29th November. I have here a letter dated 22nd November from the secretary of the Ballaghaderreen and District I.R.A. Veterans' Cumann—a man I do not know, who wrote me voluntarily. This is what he had to tell me with regard to the condition of Roscommon. I leave Deputy Dillon himself to judge whether this is a true picture or not:

"This district from which is drawn our 60 members, representing every vocation and calling, covers a radius within six miles roughly of this town and takes in part of the Counties Sligo and Mayo as well as Roscommon. It has suffered more than any other from the ravages of emigration, as is borne out by the following. There are upwards of 500 homes in which there is hardly left a boy or girl between the ages of 17 and 25. In addition, there are over 250 homesteads closed down, the families having left altogether. The holdings are mostly uneconomic and with no wages to supplement the small incomes from the land. Emigration has usually to be resorted to and, curious though it may seem, more so during the past two or three years than ever before within memory."

This is a letter which I received from a resident of Ballaghaderreen, a town which Deputy Dillon should know well is in Roscommon; but coming as it does from a man in his capacity as secretary of the I.R.A. Veterans' Cumann, no doubt Deputy Dillon would not seek him out to inquire whether in his opinion it is truly as he suggests a congested district requiring some measure of help under this Undeveloped Areas Bill.

Before I leave Deputy Dillon, may I say that, even though he tried to dissociate me from any remarks he had to make on the Estimate, he suggested during the course of the debate that I was cavorting around the strand with Deputy Breslin, now in the Chair, at Magheraroarty, the suggestion being that I selected only the Fianna Fáil representative in that district as well. In that case also, I wrote to Deputy O'Donnell, the Fine Gael representative, and was told by the Deputy that he was engaged elsewhere. In fact, I knew he was engaged elsewhere, as I met him some days afterwards. The suggestion that I selected only a member of my own Party to examine work that was considered necessary is fantastic and completely at variance with the facts.

He also suggested that I, as Parliamentary Secretary, would not have recourse to any one of the Ministers of the Cabinet. I would like to say this and place it on record, that I have found nothing but the utmost co-operation from each and every one of the Ministers. I am in a position to approach any one of them at any time and not, as Deputy Dillon suggests, to be told by the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste that I must wait three days, if I see them at all. I can go direct to the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste to seek advice and put my views before them and hear theirs in return. I am also in a position with regard to my particular functions to go to the Government—as I said before, but I do not think Deputy MacBride was in the House at the time—through any Minister or, if not through any Minister, to go direct myself, without recourse to the inter-departmental committee, in regard to any scheme which it is proposed to put before the Government. I do not necessarily have to have the opinions one way or the other of the inter-departmental committee.

Deputy MacBride also suggested that I should avail of the technical assistance offered under E.C.A. I do not know whether Deputy MacBride is aware that there is a danger that that technical assistance will cease at the end of this year, but in any case I am in contact with the representatives of E.C.A. in Dublin and will be meeting them again shortly.

Frequent references were made to the work being carried out throughout the western districts under the Local Authorities (Works) Act having been cut down by the Fianna Fáil Government. It should scarcely be necessary at this stage to repeat that in the Book of Estimates for the current year the sum provided for was £1,220,000 as against £1,750,000 last year, a reduction of £530,000. It was the previous Government and not the Fianna Fáil Government which effected any reduction in the moneys voted for this scheme. In that connection, I should like to quote from the Official Report of the debate on the Local Government Estimate of 27th June last. As reported in Volume 126, No. 4, at column 543, the Minister for Local Government, Mr. Smith, said:

"I am standing here over an Estimate for £1,200,000, an Estimate inserted in the Book of Estimates by my predecessor. I am drawing attention to the fact that there is a certain sum of money available to me. I am giving an undertaking that, so far as I can, I will ensure that this money is wisely spent."

Therefore, the suggestions being bandied about here, there and everywhere—even during the course of my tour it was put to me on a number of occasions that the present Government was responsible for a reduction of the moneys voted for this purpose—should cease when everybody making them knows well that the facts are as I have stated.

Most of the Deputies who spoke on the opposite side, while welcoming the introduction of this Estimate and the setting up of this office, suggested that it was, more or less, eyewash. In so far as I can ensure it, there will be no eyewash whatever attached to the office, and I will do my best to carry out the trust imposed on me by the Government.

I did not seek this office and I was not aware that the office was earmarked for me when it was originally established, but, in so far as I am entrusted with it, I will do my best to carry out the duties of that office. Several Deputies, and Deputy Cowan in particular, said that it is an onerous task, that the problems are many and varied and will need the best efforts and co-operation of every side of the House. Having had some experience of it, I can agree to a large extent with what Deputy Cowan said. It is a tough assignment, but I hope, without any political tinge whatever, to do my best on behalf of these areas, and, in my own small way and through the system of co-ordination and the initiation of schemes which may not have been thought of before, to better the lives of the people in Gaeltacht and congested districts.

I want to say, in conclusion, that "Gaeltacht and congested districts" for the purposes of my office are not defined at all. There is no suggestion of omitting any pocket in County Clare or any other part of the western seaboard. "Gaeltacht and congested districts", so far as I am concerned, will be a loose term and where I see that standards of living are poor and economic conditions low, I hope to be able to better these conditions in so far as any means will be placed at my disposal, or in so far as I can formulate any schemes for that purpose. Again, I want to thank the majority of Deputies for the manner in which they approached this Estimate and the goodwill that has been promised me in carrying out this work.

Mr. Blowick

Such a multiplicity of points were put before the Parliamentary Secretary that he could not think of them all, but I was very interested in the marine services section of Gaeltacht Services and I should like to know what are the Parliamentary Secretary's plans or what is his outlook in regard to that branch.

Mr. Lynch

It is my intention to develop them to the fullest possible extent. Only to-day, half an hour before the Estimate was brought before the House, I had an interview with a man who probably knows more about the seaweed industry than any man in this country. At this stage, I do not want to give any indication of what is in contemplation with reference to any particular scheme. I do not want to announce in advance anything I have in mind, until I am in a position to implement anything I can say with regard to a particular development.

Mr. Blowick

Experiments were being carried out on a particular kind of seed, known as ascophyllm, as distinct from searods, before the change of Government, and I am interested to know what developments, if any, were made in the matter of its use.

Mr. Lynch

I am not going to pretend to the Deputy that I know all about these things. It is only recently that Gaeltacht Services were placed in my care, and I want to say in that regard that it was due to no laziness on the part of the Minister for Lands, as Deputy Dillon suggested, but at my express wish that Gaeltacht Services were placed under my care, because I felt that there was no affinity whatever between them and the work with which the Department of Lands is primarily concerned. There was a certain amount of confusion in the minds of the people generally as to my functions in regard to Gaeltacht Services, and I felt that it was one line along which I could, by direct action, co-ordinate work which I found desirable and necessary. On going to the Government with the request that these services should be given in my charge, the Government immediately decided to do so. As to the point raised by the Deputy, I have not yet had time to examine all the activities of that section, but I hope to do so within the next couple of weeks.

Vote put and agreed to.

Votes 56 and 72 reported and agreed to.