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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Apr 1952

Vol. 130 No. 11

Social Welfare (Insurance) Bill, 1951—Second Stage (Resumed).

When I was speaking on this Bill on the last occasion on which the matter was before the House, I referred to the condemnation of the Social Welfare Bill of 1950 by certain insurance officials. I quoted one such official as saying on 4th April, 1951, that "he had no use whatsoever for elaborate social services as envisaged in the 1950 Bill". I stress the fact that considerable pressure was put on Deputy Norton, the then Minister for Social Welfare, to drop the death benefits and retiring benefits provisions of the scheme. I suggest that it is most significant that these two particular benefits have since been dropped. Only a week before the present Bill was published certain insurance officials in this town indicated that they believed that when the Bill would be published the death benefits would be found to have been dropped. The fact that that particular section has been dropped from the Bill represents a definite success for the vested interests over the welfare of the ordinary people of this country. Due to the dropping of that section, the worker will have to continue to pay his week-to-week industrial premium which costs a considerable amount more than he would have to pay if this benefit were contained in the Bill, as it was in the 1950 Bill, to secure the necessary cover for himself, his wife and his children, should he have the misfortune to die at an early date.

Deputy Dr. Browne took advantage of his speech on this Bill to suggest that Deputy Norton, the Leader of the Labour Party, backed down from his support of the mother and child scheme at the behest and in fear of the Irish Medical Association. I wonder why Deputy Dr. Browne does not now cry out publicly against the fact that the people whom he claims to represent—the ordinary plain people of this country—are being deprived of the particular benefit that he admits is the most needed of all. Why does Deputy Dr. Browne not claim that the present Minister and the present Government have backed down not because of objections by the Irish Medical Association but because of objections by the vested interests of industrial assurance companies? If he is sincere in his protestations of his interest in the ordinary worker, his voice should ring out in this Dáil and throughout the country in the very same way as he has made it ring out to decry and belittle the Labour Party and to decry and belittle his former colleagues and the members of his own Party.

Deputy Dr. Browne won the admiration and the respect of all the members of my Party for his work in the Department of Health. He won our thanks and appreciation for his work in administering the tuberculosis schemes. For the improvements of our county hospitals, of our county homes and of the various other centres where the sick are nursed we were appreciative of the work he did. For the fact that he brought about better pay and better hours for all, be they nurses or attendants, who catered for the sick we gave him our sincere thanks and tried to help him in every way. We still admire him for all that he did but when he seeks to condemn the Leader of the Labour Party I suggest he does so merely for the sake of trying to vindicate his action in the past. Deputy Dr. Browne must know that Deputy Norton and many others in the Cabinet were prepared to fight by his side had the mother and child scheme been a simple issue with the medical association. He must realise that it was not until Maynooth, at Deputy Dr. Browne's request——

I stopped Deputy Dr. Browne from discussing the mother and child scheme and I cannot now allow Deputy Kyne to proceed on that line. We are not discussing the mother and child scheme under this measure and the Deputy must find some other line. I specifically stopped Deputy Dr. Browne from discussing it.

I accept your ruling. I suggest that the action of Deputy Dr. Browne in attacking the Leader of the Labour Party only detracts from his own protestations of fair play and justice. At column 1008 of the Official Report of 1st April, 1952, discussing the present Bill, Deputy Dr. Browne said:—

"As to Deputy Norton's amendments, I completely agree with him and I consider that they would improve the Bill".

Later on in the same speech at column 1010, Deputy Dr. Browne said:

"I will conclude by saying I am not impressed by Deputy Norton's amendments and I am asking the House to reject them".

I suggest that a Deputy who commences his speech by stating he is in favour of particular amendments and concludes by stating he is against them is not a Deputy whose opinion is to be valued or whose criticisms of any Leader of the Labour Party are to be taken seriously.

Deputy Captain Cowan at column 246 of Volume 125 of the Official Report, on 5th April, 1951, in reference to Deputy Dr. Ryan's speech, said:

"Now the Deputy has somersaulted and said that we do not need any increase in contributions but can raise the necessary funds by taxation What does that show to me? It shows a Party that is dishonest. It shows a Party which knows, which must know, that it will not assume the responsibility of office again; it shows a Party in defeat attempting to gain the few miserable votes that will keep some of them in Parliament after the next election. That is the total reason for that somersault."

At column 249, Deputy Captain Cowan said:—

"Deputy Kissane and other Deputies say it is wrong to give a retiring allowance to a man of 65 who has worked probably 50 years. That is the Party that introduced here and passed into law legislation to give £500 a year pension to Ministers of the Government after a few years in office. Fianna Fáil gave £10 a week to a man after a few years in office as a Minister, yet they say it is wrong to give a retirement allowance of 24/- to a worker in the rural areas or in the city who has worked and sweated over a period of 50 years. Where is the honesty about that sort of thing? I want to know from Deputy Childers or from anybody else in Fianna Fáil where the honesty is in that."

That was Deputy Captain Cowan in 1951. Speaking on 4th April, 1952, he maintained a significant silence in relation to the dropping of the retiring pensions. How, then, can he justify the fact that in 1951 he believed the most important section of the Social Welfare Bill was that dealing with retirement pensions? How can he justify the fact that he taunted Fianna Fáil with opposing that section? How can he justify the fact that in 1952, on a very similar measure, he expresses appreciation of the fact that the Bill has excluded from it both death benefits and retiring pensions?

Something new has been added to the 1952 Bill. A marriage grant has been included. I believe it is a rather modest figure and I suggest that the money needed in the administration of that section of the Bill would be more advantageously spent in increasing the maternity allowance from its present figure of £2 to its former figure of £5 or in adding the money to some of the other benefits.

The Minister has remarked that the type of work generally in this country is not heavy enough to justify the claim that retiring benefits are required at 65. I would suggest as a trade union official, and one with a good deal of experience of men working on the docks, in the building trade, and similar heavy industries, that the percentage of workers who continue to work beyond 65 is very small. Only in exceptional cases and because of urgent financial need do men work beyond the age of 65. How can the withdrawal of such benefit from this scheme be justified when we realise that the Government have suggested to local authorities, and have in fact sanctioned, a scheme whereby all officials of local authorities will be compelled to retire at 65? The duties of a policeman cannot be described as heavy from a manual point of view but still there is provision to enable a policeman to retire at that age and to receive his pension. I feel that the claim that the age of 65 is too young for retirement cannot be justified on any grounds.

I should like to say a few words on national health services. I agree with Deputy Dr. Esmonde that the increase in benefits was badly needed and is to be welcomed. I have had, for eight years, practical experience as an agent working for the National Health Society. I am aware of the many difficulties that confront the society in the administration of benefits and I am also aware of the hardships that have been inflicted on the members. It has been claimed that Fianna Fáil has been the progressive section of this House over a long number of years past.

I have heard repeatedly thrown across this House the taunt that Cumann na nGaedheal cut the old age pension by 1/-. That taunt was justified but I wonder if Fianna Fáil members remember that during the whole war the disablement benefit as paid by the National Health Society under their régime was 7/6 per week and that the person drawing disablement benefit was required to live, to feed and clothe himself or herself on that miserable allowance of 7/6 per week. That was even 1/6 lower than the 9/- that Cumann na nGaedheal asked old age pensioners to live on. It was only in 1947 that any improvement in national health benefits was made and it came only then as an emergency measure. It remained for the inter-Party Government, acting through Deputy Norton, as Minister for Social Welfare, by legislation to increase sickness benefit to 22/6 per week, and disablement benefit to 15/- a week in the case of a man and 13/6 a week in the case of a lady.

I would suggest that considerable improvement is required in the way of expediting payments, especially payments on the first certificates. Considerable delay has often taken place in agencies and in branch offices. Errors of numbers, errors made by the members in not completing their certificate or their original claim form, have often to be rectified by the slow method of returning to the agency or the branch office the original claim form or the original certificate. Sometimes a period of three or four weeks elapses during which a member who is ill is left completely without any financial help.

Another aspect of the national health insurance to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention—to my mind it is one of the very serious defects in the Act—is the fact that a national health agent or sickness visitor acting for the society who has no medical qualifications of any sort, can recommend the suspension of benefit to a member of the society. When such suspension takes place the member is left waiting without benefit for as long as two, and sometimes three, months pending the visit of the district medical referee. I suggest that no agent or no sickness visitor should have the power of recommending the suspension of benefit and that the total power left to them should be to recommend an examination by the district medical referee. I can quote from the first Report of the Department of Social Welfare to show the number of members so reported. The reference is page 192 of the first Report of the Department of Social Welfare—1947-1949. In the year 1945, 30,362 were so reported to the society. The number of applications rejected as unsuitable for reference to the referees by the society itself was 1,115. The number of applications cancelled by the society as the members had declared off benefit was 6,508. The number of cases summoned for examination by the referee was 22,575. The number that the referee, contrary to the reports, found incapable of work was 10,304, and those capable of light work only 457. The total number found fit for work was 2,270.

That table goes on to give figures for the various years. I suggest that anybody reading it will find that five times as many people are found unfit for work, having being reported by agents and sickness visitors, as have been found fit on examination, and that in many of these cases the member is completely deprived of benefit over periods ranging from one week to two or three months. Many of these members have been forced by hunger, and by the fact that they and their dependents can receive no financial assistance, to give up their right to benefit and go back to work sooner than await the report of the district medical referee. I feel that is a glaring injustice on the people, that a member who is ill, certified by a medical doctor, can be suspended from benefit on the mere word of an agent or a sickness visitor, and that his benefits will not be restored to him until such time as the district medical referee will have an opportunity of examining him. I feel that the Minister would be doing well if he were to issue an instruction that such a thing cannot happen in the future.

In most small towns, agents are appointed by the society. They are paid a salary which does not permit them to rent or to provide a suitable office for claimants. I believe that in the future it should be the responsibility of the Department to provide such offices. I trust, now that the National Health Insurance Society has been incorporated in the Department of Social Welfare, that it will be possible, in the smaller towns at all events, to see that a suitable office, with suitable waiting accommodation, is provided for the members who have to attend there to hand in their certificates and to receive their benefits.

There is one other point to which I should like to direct the Minister's attention. The society has power to recover from an employer any stamps which that employer has failed to affix in the case of an employee working with him. Should an employer fail to do that, and should the worker become ill, benefit will not be paid to the member even where it is reported that the cause of the stamps not having been surrendered to the society was due to the fact that the employer had not carried out his duty. Where such a report is made, the society will compel the employer to affix the stamps and will receive the revenue that is due to the fund, but the worker will have completely lost his benefit for the period he is ill. The only consolation he will get is to be told that, under a section of the Act, he has the right to institute legal proceedings for recovery against his employer. I suggest that requires alteration. If a member can satisfy the Department that he was in employment for the period required to govern his contribution year, and that his employer had not carried out his duty by affixing the stamps, then the member concerned should, I suggest, receive full benefit. The society can proceed against the employer for recovery of the benefit, if that is thought fit, but the member should certainly not be deprived of his benefit because of the failure of his employer to stamp his cards.

The reduction of maternity benefit from £5 under the 1950 scheme to the sum of £2 in the present scheme is to be deplored. The figure of £5 was surely small enough at such a time. The figure of £2 is only to be considered good in so far as it is better than nothing, because £2, in the event of a confinement, would go very little way towards providing any help at all. We all know that the value of money has been steadily decreasing. I suggest that, if this Bill is to be compared with the 1950 Bill, and if the benefits in the 1950 Bill are to be contrasted with those in this Bill, they must be taken as being over and above them because of the fact that they guaranteed benefit a year ago. If calculated according to the cost-of-living index figure to-day, the present benefits would need to be increased considerably so as to reach the same level.

There is the point that when a claimant for national health initiates his first claim in any year, for the first three days no insurance is payable. That is, I understand, to prevent a certain form of malingering so that a worker would not be encouraged to stay at home from work for a day or two because he or she suffered from a hangover. I suggest that the fact that benefit for the first three days is to be stopped, in a case where a worker is genuinely ill, is tantamount to a 50 per cent. reduction in his benefit for the first week. In short illnesses it is essential that every day's benefit should be paid from the first day. I suggest also that, in like manner, unemployment benefit should become payable from the first day a person becomes unemployed. While these penalties may have been put in with very good and sincere intentions. I suggest that they have been known to cause hardship to people at a time when they are most in need.

I would say that everything good in this Bill is taken completely from the 1950 Bill. I would say that the principle of increased disablement benefit, the unemployment system of credits being allowed, the uniform rates for widows, the maternity allowance of six weeks before and six weeks after confinement all appeared in the 1950 Bill. That was the first time they appeared in the life of social welfare in this country. That these are incorporated in the present Bill is desirable and is to be welcomed but the fact that the other points to which I have alluded—death benefits and retirement benefits—have been completely dropped is regrettable and certainly should be remedied in the very near future.

Deputy Cowan, when speaking on this Bill, said that it was not the last Bill. I certainly hope that a new Social Welfare Bill will be introduced in the immediate future and that it will incorporate retirement benefits and death benefits. We, in the Labour Party, will always support any progressive legislation which helps the widow, the orphan, the sick or the disabled.

We could take the attitude of Deputy Lemass on the 1950 Bill and say: "What is the question we are asked?" Whether we should oppose this Bill and so hope to make way for a better one or whether we should say we will support this Bill because of the good that is in it and by our speeches on the various stages indicate that while this Bill is a step in the right direction it does not meet with our full desires. I would say that we in the Labour Party support this Bill for the good that is in it but we reserve the right to be put on record as saying that we believe there is need for further legislation and that we will always bless and vote for an advance and an improvement in social legislation so that the worker himself, his wife and his family will be protected from the economic hazards of life.

A Cheann Comhairle, the fact that a measure of this kind is introduced in the Dáil is, in effect, a condemnation of the economic structure of our society and our State.

Hear, hear!

Any scheme of social welfare, particularly one that seeks to deal with unemployment, is an admission of the failure of our State and society to enable each family unit to earn an adequate family wage to enable the family to maintain itself in reasonable standards. Therefore, a scheme of social security, however well devised or however well-intentioned, is in reality but a patchwork quilt to conceal the failure of our State to organise its economic life in such a way as to enable every wage-earner in the country to secure work at a decent family wage.

Instead of seeing a measure of this kind introduced in the House, I should much rather see the State boldly assume responsibility for the provision of work for the whole population. I refer particularly to these portions of the scheme that deal with the accident of unemployment—an accident which, I am afraid, is far too common in this State.

Another difficulty which I see in regard to any scheme of social security that may be introduced in the House which depends on the payment of contributions and provides for the payment of cash benefits is that these benefits, having regard to the constant depreciation of money, cease to have any definite value. Benefits provided for in this Bill, however small and however inadequate they may be to-day, may be still smaller and quite useless this day 12 months by reason of the depreciation in the value of money and by reason of increased prices.

Indeed, the Government in this case has already made quite certain that it will reduce the value of these benefits by the fact that it has decided to do away with subsidies on essential foodstuffs and has also decided to impose additional taxation on commodities used by the population as a whole; so that already we know to-day that the benefits which are provided in this Bill will, in three months' time, have been considerably reduced by the action of the Government and, God knows, these benefits are already meagre and inadequate enough.

I feel that in relation to social security benefits and, indeed, in relation to wages, we will soon have to develop a completely new approach. Wages and social benefits are only worth the amount of goods which they can purchase. We are living in an era where the purchasing power of money is constantly depreciating and where prices are constantly fluctuating.

I think the time has come when we should seek a completely new approach to the wage structure and also to the payment of social security benefits. This could be done by determining a basic minimum wage that would be related to the cost of living—a basic minimum wage that would be anchored to a comprehensive cost-of-living index and which would fluctuate with the cost of living. In that way, I think, we could avoid a considerable amount of the constant industrial strife which occurs by reason of the fact that, owing to increasing prices, the value of real wages is constantly depreciated and has to be remedied by an increase in wages. We have a situation in which there is a constant spiral and a constant chasing of prices by wages. That is a situation which benefits nobody and which causes a considerable amount of friction in the industrial life of the country.

Likewise, there is no reason why a system should not be adopted whereby benefits payable under any scheme of social welfare should not be related to the cost of living and should not fluctuate automatically with the cost of living. It would obviate the constant agitation that naturally takes place when the value of money goes down or when the cost of living goes up, whichever way you like to put it, and would save this House a considerable amount of difficulty in dealing with the whole problem of social security. My view, therefore, is that there should be a basic minimum wage related to the cost of living and that that basic minimum wage should itself form the basis of the wage structure and of the benefits payable under any scheme of social welfare.

I also hold the view that there should be a separate social security Budget; that the expenditure of the State should be divided under three main heads; (1) a Capital Budget to deal with capital and national development schemes; (2) a Housekeeping Budget to deal with ordinary Government expenditure; and (3) a Social Security Budget. I feel it would be of considerable help if expenditure under the heading of social welfare was segregated and dealt with in one Budget and if the taxes for the social welfare Budget were dealt with separately so that people should know exactly the cost, first of all, of the social welfare scheme and also know what particular taxes were applicable to that. Such a system has been adopted in some other countries and I think it is a good system. I think the taxpayer will much more readily agree to the payment of a particular tax if he knows the purpose to which that tax is being applied, whether it is a tax on dancing, a tax on whiskey, or a tax on the importation of luxury motor cars. Whatever it be, that tax should be appropriated particularly to the cost of whatever social security scheme is in force in the State at the time.

In regard to old age, I would much rather have a scheme of general application which would enable everyone to live in the knowledge and in the security that at the age of 65 they would be automatically entitled to a retirement allowance and that this should be made available to everybody irrespective of means. A system of that kind would have several advantages, particularly in our particular society. It would have social effects which would be desirable in the country. People would have the knowledge that when they reach, say, the age of 65 they would be provided for and would receive a pension for the rest of their days irrespective of their means. The effect of that would, I think, be the transfer, at a much earlier date, of the control of farms to the younger generation who, in present circumstances, are often forced to emigrate before they can obtain control of the family farms.

For these reasons, I regard the scheme which is before the House or any scheme of this kind as merely a sort of stop-gap, as merely, as I said before, a patchwork quilt to hide many of the defects in our economic organisation. But, while it is a patchwork quilt, while it does conceal many defects in our economic organisation, it is nevertheless essential to have a scheme of this kind. My concern, therefore, is to make it as comprehensive and as inclusive as possible.

The development of industrialisation has rendered our economic structure much more complex and much more liable to sudden changes. We must, therefore, try to insulate, as far as we can, the population from the effects of sudden changes. We have had a recent example of how sudden these changes can be. In a very short period of time, we have had an increase of some 12,000 in the number of people unemployed. As I said, I would much rather see the State accepting responsibility for the provision of employment for these 12,000 people than to see it escape that responsibility by providing them with doles of one kind or another. The provision of doles, whether by way of unemployment benefits or home assistance, is really only a method of avoiding the responsibility which the State should shoulder.

I should like to see a position reached where the Department of Finance would have the responsibility of either providing work for the working population or of paying them a basic minimum wage. I think we might have a completely different approach to our economic problems if the Department of Finance found itself faced with that task instead of seeking to impose a policy of retrenchment and deflation. It would probably take a period of years, or possibly a generation, but the Department of Finance would become one of the most progressive Departments in the State.

I do not imagine that I shall convince the present Government that that is the right approach; but, in our case particularly, it is of vital importance to have a comprehensive scheme of social security at the moment for two reasons. In the first place, we suffer from chronic unemployment, unemployment which is relatively higher in this country than in most other countries in Europe. Our rate of unemployment is abnormally high. The published rate of unemployment is very far from giving an accurate picture of the real situation, because our unemployment figures here are always masked by the fact that a large section of the unemployed population are forced to emigrate. Therefore, we never really have a proper picture of the full extent of our unemployment problem. The figures we have merely indicate the balance of people who are unemployed after the others have emigrated.

Another reason which, in my view, makes it vital to have a comprehensive social security scheme is the fact that one of the arguments used with considerable effect to influence the population of the Six Counties is that they would suffer considerably if they were to unite with the rest of the country, by reason of the low rate of social benefits payable here. In the Six Counties during the last elections the main leaflet and poster used by the Partitionists was one setting out in one column the social benefits payable in the Six Counties — not by the Tory Government, but by the British Labour Government, but nevertheless fully exploited by the Partitionists — and in another column the social benefits payable in this part of Ireland. That was the chief piece of propaganda used in the Six Counties during the last elections, and it was a very effective one.

The Bill introduced by the present Government is a truncated copy of the Bill which was introduced by Deputy Norton. I regret that the present Government felt it necessary to introduce such an emaciated version of the Bill sponsored by the last Government, which secured its Second Reading in this House. I am inclined to ask myself why the Fianna Fáil Government decided to depart so radically from the provisions of the Norton Bill. It certainly was not because of any difference in principle and it certainly was not for the purpose of adopting a different structure, because the Bill now introduced is more or less identical with the Norton Bill save as regards certain cheeseparing and cutting down of benefits. I wonder whether it was done out of sheer perversity, in order to do something different, or whether it represents the ingrained conservatism of the Fianna Fáil Party. If it were done out of sheer perversity, one would have thought that Fianna Fáil would have adopted a more imaginative and a newer approach to social security. However, they did not do that. Instead they copied the Bill introduced by the last Government, practically word for word, in its main portions. I cannot help remembering that before the change of Government in 1948 the Fianna Fáil Government stoutly refused to increase the old age pensions by 1/-. They also refused to modify the means test any further, and I am driven to the conclusion that the principal reason why this Bill is introduced in its present form is the ingrained conservative outlook which most of the Fianna Fáil Ministers possess.

However, I suppose we should be grateful for small mercies and grateful that, in the course of the last three years, the Fianna Fáil Government should have been brought to the point of recognising that an old age pension of 10/- per week with a voucher valued at 2/6 was inadequate and that they are now prepared to accept the figure of 20/- set by the last Government. I am glad that that lesson has been learned by the Fianna Fáil Party. However, the lesson which they have learned in that respect is probably more apparent than real, because this Bill, taken in the context of the present Budget, is little short of a fraud on the public. The Minister for Social Welfare told us that he intends to spend something under £2,000,000 this year on social welfare; that is the additional amount which is to be spent on social security this year. On the other hand, the Minister for Finance is going to relieve the people of £15.1 million as a result of the removal of the subsidies and by imposing additional taxation. Therefore the net loss suffered by the people will be in the neighbourhood of something like £13,000,000.

This Bill has a vice which is possibly even greater than the vice of being completely inadequate. This Bill is probably one of the most flagrant examples we have had in recent times of bad faith in public life. I am afraid, a Chinn Chomhairle, that I shall have to deal with this in some detail here, as I heard some Deputies on the other side of the House the other day questioning various statements made by Deputy O'Higgins when attention was drawn to some of the promises made by the present Minister for Social Welfare when he was in opposition. I suppose election promises are inseparable from a democratic Government. It is unfortunate, however, that public men, with a sense of responsibility, should deliberately make, just for the sake of securing votes, promises which they, apparently, have no intention of carrying into effect. When the Norton Social Security Bill was under consideration by this House, just about a year ago, the present Minister for Social Welfare, then Deputy Dr. Ryan, criticised the Bill on a number of scores. He complained that it was not comprehensive enough and explained that he himself had the heads of a scheme which he proposed to put before the House on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party. This was not just a casual election promise, and I would like to refer the House to what Deputy Dr. Ryan said on that occasion with, apparently, a full sense of his responsibility. At column 1109, Volume 124, No. 7, of the Dáil Debates of 2nd March, 1951, Deputy Dr. Ryan said:

"... I am going to state definitely a scheme that is workable and that will be worked by Fianna Fáil, not to state a scheme for the electors and then come back like the Minister, but to introduce a scheme that is workable. I say that old age pensions and widows' and orphans' pensions are needed by all classes except, of course, the very wealthy."

In that speech Deputy Dr. Ryan emphasised more than once that he was speaking with a full sense of his responsibilities of a scheme that he and his Party were to introduce in this House if they were returned to office. He specifically stated that he was not then making a speech in order to try to catch votes. At column 1112, Deputy Dr. Ryan went on to state:—

"I said that I was going to make certain proposals and that if the Minister did not implement them a Fianna Fáil Government would implement them. Keeping that in mind, I have to be careful."

Surely there has never been a clearer example of a responsible man, who had been for a great many years a Minister, making a statement which amounted to a complete pledge than the statement made by Deputy Dr. Ryan, now Minister for Social Welfare. He outlined a number of the provisions of his scheme to the Dáil on that occasion, on the 2nd March, 1951, about a year ago. He told us that all except the very rich should have old age pensions—not the rich, but "the very rich". He told us, indeed, that he did not see very much virtue in a contributory scheme; indeed that he did not see very much virtue in any means test. At column 1103, he told us in regard to the means test:—

"The Oireachtas can at any time abolish it if they want to. As Deputies of this House are aware, it was done in respect of the children's allowances. There is no reason why the Minister could not, if he wished, bring in a Bill at any moment to abolish the means test completely in respect of old age pensions and widows' and orphans' pensions."

In regard to the contributory scheme he said:—

"I do not think there is any great substance in the Minister's arguments in favour of the contributory system, and there are objections which would lead me, at any rate, to resist, as far as I could, any increase in contributions. I am not advocating that we should abolish contributions as they are—and I shall give reasons for that, too. However, I think that the arguments against the contributory system would make us hesitate before increasing the contributions on either the employer or the employee. It is an unfair system as between one employee and another; it is an unfair system as between one employer and another."

It is that system which the Minister described so eloquently as unfair then, which he now introduces into this House with a shameless disregard of the assurances which he gave this House, not casually but with a full sense of his responsibility, expressing to the House that he had to be careful because he was making proposals which he would implement if the people trusted him, if he was returned to sit on the Government Benches where he now sits.

That was bad enough but the Minister did not stop at that. On the next day, the Fianna Fáil Party published in detail their social welfare scheme. It was published in table form, comparing it with the Norton Social Security Bill. It was issued from Fianna Fáil headquarters and published in all the daily papers of that day. Deputy O'Higgins, the other day, referred the House to that table and to the statement issued by the Fianna Fáil Party on the 3rd March, the day after Deputy Dr. Ryan, as he then was, had given this solemn assurance to the House. When Deputy O'Higgins was addressing the House, he was subjected to a constant barrage of interruptions from Deputy Briscoe and some other Government Deputies who suggested, inferentially, that Deputy O'Higgins was not being fair because he was not quoting from the Irish Press and that the Irish Press might contain a different version of the Fianna Fáil Proposals. I have taken the trouble of getting the Irish Press of the 3rd March, 1951. We have on the front page, in panel form, under the heading “Fianna Fáil Proposals: Government Proposals” a table setting out Deputy Dr. Ryan's proposals. Let me read the paragraph that introduces that table:—

"Below in tabular form are Fianna Fáil's proposals on social welfare, as outlined by Dr. James Ryan in the Dáil yesterday, contrasted with the Government's proposals,"

and we have, one by one, their promises, not given casually, but given with a full sense of responsibility, not given, as Deputy Dr. Ryan then told the House, to deceive the electorate but given with the full sense of responsibility of an ex-Minister who intends to put them into operation if he secures the support of the people.

We were told that there would be no means test for farmers under £25 valuation or people with £100 cash income. Could there be a clearer undertaking to the people of the country than that? Yet, it is shamelessly broken in this House now.

We were told that there was to be no increase in contributions: that a scheme would be financed by additional revenue, estimated at £4.6 million. They even went to the trouble of calculating figures in order better to mislead the people. Surely there must be a limit to what can be done in public life?

The other day when Deputy Briscoe and some of his colleagues were suggesting that Deputy O'Higgins was not giving a correct version of the promises made at that time by Fianna Fáil it was also suggested that these were not election promises. I do not know what difference can be drawn between a promise given in the newspapers and an election promise.

I took the trouble of looking up the speech made by the present Taoiseach, then Deputy de Valera, at the G.P.O., O'Connell Street, on the night before the general election. It is seldom that the present Taoiseach, Deputy de Valera, ever commits himself to anything. The House will know, and indeed the House will have suffered from it on numerous occasions, how Deputy de Valera, the present Taoiseach, is capable of making a speech lasting for a considerable period of time but of saying little or nothing in it. The whole country is aware of that failing of the present Taoiseach. However, on this occasion, he took his courage in both hands. He actually committed himself—and it very seldom happens that Deputy de Valera commits himself.

Less than a year ago—on the 29th May, 1951, the night before the general election—the Taoiseach, as reported in the Irish Press of Wednesday, the 30th May, 1951, said in the course of his speech:—

"That being their record"—the Fianna Fáil record—"how can anyone suggest, as their opponents were suggesting, that Fianna Fáil were opposed to the extension of social services? They wanted these social services to enable our people to live as happily as the community resources would permit. These were Fianna Fáil aims. It was Fianna Fáil who set up the Department of Health and Social Welfare in order that schemes might be devised to help the people and to give them greater social security than they had. How then could it be suggested that Fianna Fáil were against these things?"

Listen to the next sentence:—

"Their plan in regard to social services was before the Dáil a short time ago."

"The Fianna Fáil plan was before the Dáil a short time ago." Was that speech not made in order to deceive the electorate? Let us read a little further in the same speech:—

"They will only talk"—says the present Taoiseach, then Deputy de Valera—"of the pint but I would remind you that we brought down the price of tea from 4/10 to 2/8 a lb., the price of flour down by 1/- a stone or £1 a sack, and the price of a four lb. loaf from 1/1½d. to 1/-.

In brackets, and note the brackets—"(Applause)". I can well see the scene in O'Connell Street that night. I can visualise Deputy de Valera, the present Taoiseach, explaining to the assembled multitude how, by putting on subsidies, they had brought down the price of bread, tea, sugar and butter. Then —"(Applause)". The speech further continues:

"... and we brought down the price of sugar from 6d. to 4d. a lb. Butter was subsidised by us. So also was fuel. £15,000,000 was being provided by us in order to keep down the cost of living. We were not putting it in abeyance. I have too much regard for the people to think that they did not see the advantages and that they only thought of the disadvantages at that time."

That speech was made by the present Taoiseach less than a year ago. I can understand that sometimes a statesman or politician may change his view on a certain problem.

You did it yourself.

As a matter of fact, it is probable that I have done so less frequently than most Deputies in this House. However, I can understand that either through change of circumstances, through acquiring a certain maturity of outlook or through learning facts that were not known before, politicians, Deputies or statesmen may change their views over a period of time. Surely, however, there has never been any responsible statesman who has changed his views so rapidly in regard to a matter which was such a vital issue in a general election than the present Taoiseach in that general election?

Perhaps not a responsible one.

Not a responsible Taoiseach?

That was an intelligent interjection by the Minister.

I do not know whether the Minister is seeking to suggest, while retiring from the House now, that his Taoiseach is not a responsible Taoiseach. Turning now to the Taoiseach's speech in his final appeal to the electorate, I have here the leading article in the Irish Press of the same date. It is needless for me to point out that the Irish Press is governed and controlled by no less a person than the Taoiseach and his Party.

That does not arise on the Bill before the House.

Surely it does arise if a newspaper which is controlled by the Taoiseach expresses certain views in its editorial. I respectfully suggest that it is relevant for me in such circumstances to draw attention to the fact that it voices the views of the Taoiseach and of his Party.

I would point out to the Deputy that we are discussing the Social Welfare Bill. The Deputy seems to be wandering away from that.

I have quoted what the Taoiseach said in regard to social welfare in a speech made on the eve of the last election when he was seeking the votes of the Irish people on the basis of certain promises which are now being shamelessly broken.

Surely the question of subsidies or the withdrawal of subsidies does not arise on this Bill?

With great respect, it does, because surely the question of giving £1 with one hand and taking £5 out of the taxpayer's pocket with the other does arise. In this editorial complaint is made that there is unfair criticism of the Fianna Fáil Party and in the course of this editorial the following appears:—

"It is this fidelity of the average man and woman to Fianna Fáil that explains the kind of propaganda the Coalition has used in this election. It has been aimed at creating fear among the wage-earners in shops and factory, and of farmers and farm labourers. If Fianna Fáil is elected, they are told, they will attack the pay packets of the factory workers (for whom, by the way, it was Fianna Fáil that produced most of the factories), cut the social services, tax the things the poor consume, make life more difficult for the family (the family that has always been Fianna Fáil's special care)."

That is in no way relevant to the Social Welfare Bill before the House.

The article deals with a cut in social services. This Bill deals with the provision of social services and I suggest that any promises made to the electorate—not five years ago, not ten years ago nor 20 years ago, but ten months ago—in order to secure votes are relevant to this issue.

Surely the question of the election does not arise on this Bill. I again tell the Deputy to come back to the Bill before the House and to discuss the Bill.

With respect, I submit that a question of public morality and public decency should always be a matter for this House, and there has never been a more clearly defined breach of a public undertaking than has been brought about by the introduction of this Bill.

We were told in the scheme that was promised, and to which I have already adverted, that there would be no means test in relation to old age pensions except in the case of the very rich. That was subsequently modified and we were told that there would be no means test in the case of an old age pensioner receiving £100 per annum— that is, £2 per week. We turn to this Bill and we find that if an old age pensioner receives £1 Os. 3d.—mark the 3d. —he will be docked 5/- in his pension. If he receives £1 Os. 2d. he will get the full old age pension. The Bill provides that an old person may receive 30/3 per week and an old age pension of 10/- per week but if he receives 40/3 per week he will only receive a pension of 5/- and if he receives 40/4 he will get nothing. Has there ever been a narrower definition of a means test? Has there ever been a more nonsensical definition of a means test? If one has £1 Os. 2d. per week one will receive the full old age pension: if one has £1 Os. 3d. per week one will lose 5/-.

The Bill has dropped—I do not say that this is any breach of any undertaking given by the Minister either here or elsewhere because he did indicate his disapproval of giving retirement pensions at the age of 65—the provision for a retirement pension at the age of 65. It has been quite erroneously suggested by some speakers that the Norton Bill provided for compulsory retirement at the age of 65. That is quite untrue. There was no such provision in the Bill. It merely provided that a person who had given 40 or 45, or possibly more, years of gainful work to the nation could retire at the age of 65 and receive a retirement pension. There was no question of compulsory retirement. Anybody who wished to do so could continue working after that age.

We have been told now that there is no necessity for anybody to retire at the age of 65 and that, indeed, most people would prefer to continue working. That may be so. It depends on the individual. Nobody suggests anybody should be prevented from working. But if the provision is so unnecessary, why then do we compel our civil servants to retire at the age of 65 and why do we provide them with a pension at the age of 65? Why do we compel the members of the police force to retire at an even earlier age and members of the Defence Forces? Surely the State has not arbitrarily decided to retire civil servants at the age of 65 and pay to them a pension from that time onwards unless the State considered it proper and right to do so. Is there any reason why other sections of the community should be treated less favourably? Are civil servants so hard worked that their health is likely to break down by the time they reach the age of 65? Is that the reason? Is it a particularly dangerous kind of occupation? I do not think so. I do not think anybody here would suggest that it was. Civil servants are rather healthy and seem to enjoy life quite well. I do not see that there exist greater hazards or risks amongst civil servants than amongst any other sections of the community.

The Norton Bill provided for the payment of a maternity grant of £5. Frankly, I thought it was a miserable amount at the time but miserable and all as it was, the Minister cut that miserly sum down to £2 and abolished completely the provisions contained in the Norton Bill for the payment of a weekly maternity attendance benefit of £1. That is from the Party that complained that the Norton Bill was not comprehensive enough and that they would introduce a bigger and better one. We heard a lot in recent times about the mothers and children of the country and about means tests.

I have not heard one word from the Deputies, who sought election from the people on the basis that they were against the means tests, that they object to the fantastic and ridiculous means test in this Bill. I have not heard one word of protest from the Deputies who professed such considerable interest in the mothers and children of this country, at the fact that this Bill deprives mothers of the already miserly amount provided for them. Nor was there any protest from them on the score that it deprives mothers, in addition, of the weekly maternity attendance grant of £1 per week.

Deputy Dr. Browne spoke in this House on this measure and tried to justify his support of the measure. He informed the House that he was going to support this measure and then tried to justify his support of the present Government. He never adverted to the fact that there was a more stringent means test in this Bill than in any of the proposals in regard to any mother and child scheme. He never adverted to the fact that the mothers were to be deprived of more than half of the maternity grant under this Bill or that the mothers were to be deprived of the provisions for a maternity attendance of £1 per week which were contained in the Norton Bill. His speech to the House consisted of the usual type of personal attack in which he seems to revel whenever he speaks. He took the opportunity of repeating an accusation which he made against me elsewhere in regard to a photograph which was taken. The accusation which he made is misleading in the extreme and is just a perversion of the facts. I did not deal with this matter in this House before because I felt that it was one of those irresponsible accusations which he might have made in a fit of bad temper and that the sooner it was forgotten the better, from his point of view. I should like briefly, with the permission of the Chair, to deal with it now.

The question has no relevancy in so far as this Bill is concerned. It does not concern the Bill in any way.

I agree that the reference made by Deputy Dr. Browne to this question was completely irrelevant at the time but, it having been made, I respectfully submit that I should be permitted to deal with it.

If it was irrelevant when it was made, it is equally irrelevant now to raise the matter.

The Deputy may, I submit, raise the matter on a point of explanation. If he uses the words: "May I explain," then he can raise the matter on a point of explanation.

The Deputy has already dealt with the point sufficiently.

In deference to the ruling of the Chair I shall limit myself to saying that the statement made by Deputy Dr. Browne in reference to that incident was completely misleading and was calculated to create a completely false and wrong impression. In the course of the same speech, Deputy Dr. Browne, who seemed to be making his speech from a prepared script, took occasion to refer to some conversation which, he said, he had with "a distinguished prelate" whom he did not name. The purport of his conversation, so far as one could make out from Deputy Dr. Browne's speech, was to suggest that this unnamed distinguished prelate had indicated to him that the very poor were not worth being concerned about. I do think that there are some limits beyond which Deputies in this House, even Deputy Dr. Browne, should not stoop in matters of this kind. It is always improper to make an accusation against a named person who is not able to answer it in this House. It is far more improper still to make an accusation of this kind against an unnamed person, belonging to a class of persons, making it completely impossible for the statement to be controverted.

I am sure every responsible Deputy in this House will know, and accept it, that no responsible prelate, that no, to use the words of Deputy Dr. Browne, "distinguished prelate" of any Church, would ever say that the very poor should not be considered. I cannot help, however, commenting on the animus which seems to impel Deputy Dr. Browne to raise religious issues in this House and to try to stir up sectarian feelings. Statements made by Deputy Dr. Browne in this connection have already done considerable damage to this country throughout the world and have been used extensively as propaganda against this country; not merely against this country but against the Church to which most of the members of this House belong.

However, to return to the actual issues, it seems to me there is a complete conflict of view between the different sections of the Government who support this Bill. On the one hand, we have this declaration by Deputy Dr. Browne—I am quoting from column 1003, of the Dáil Debates for the 1st April, 1952, Volume 130, No. 7, where he said:—

"As I have said I believe fervently in the Welfare State. I intend to pursue ruthlessly and relentlessly, as long as I am in public life to the extent that I can so do, the achievement for our people of that equality in the treatment of these accidents and of the inevitable developments amongst the old and the weak."

Of course, everybody agrees in general with this declaration, but in that statement Deputy Dr. Browne declares himself to be a fervent believer in the welfare State. On the other hand, we have Deputy Kennedy making his statement dealing with social security. It is reported in the Irish Times of the 19th February. In this statement he says:—

"‘If the welfare State ever came to Ireland the present system of farming, for which great sacrifices were made, would go,' said Mr. M. J. Kennedy, T.D., Parliamentary Secretary to the Department of Social Welfare, speaking in Mullingar at a Fianna Fáil cumann last night.

"‘The social welfare schemes,' Mr. Kennedy said, ‘are for those in want as are housing schemes and every other State help. If free-for-all grants and allowances have crept into any schemes, it is wrong in principle and dangerous for the future of the State.'"

I am glad to hear that, and I hope we will get a categorical pronouncement from the Government about the welfare State. At the moment, I am only drawing attention to the complete conflict that seems to exist on the Government Benches. On the one hand, we have the declaration from Deputy Dr. Browne saying that he stands for the welfare State, and on the other hand we have the declaration from Deputy Kennedy apparently echoed by his colleague now.

That is Deputy Kennedy himself.

Oh! is that Deputy Kennedy?

The Parliamentary Secretary.

I object to any terminological definition in regard to social security, because I must say there is always a danger in adopting a word or two words to describe a whole system. The use of the words "Welfare State" is capable of a considerable amount of misconstruction in two opposite directions, and may have a different meaning, according to the understanding of the person who uses them. Therefore, it is always unwise to tie yourself to definitions of that kind.

I would also like to draw the attention of the House to some of the bitter attacks made by Deputy Cowan about a year ago on the Fianna Fáil Party for opposing the Norton Bill, bitter attacks that led Deputy MacEntee, as he then was, and now Minister for Finance, to indulge in one of his usual vitriolic personal attacks on Deputy Cowan in which he described him as "this Nuncio of the Red Pope in the Kremlin." Deputy Cowan is now one of those who is going to support this measure. He is now one of Deputy MacEntee's allies. Nevertheless, his criticism of the Fianna Fáil Party then in regard to social welfare is worth quoting. Speaking in the House on the 5th April, 1951, just a year ago, Volume 125, No. 2, column 245, Deputy Cowan said:—

"It is a very old dodge to oppose a Bill such as this on the grounds that it is not good enough, that it does not produce adequate benefits and, at the same time, that it is too costly. Many of us are familiar with that state of mind. It is a typical Fianna Fáil approach. We had it during the 16 years that Fianna Fáil were in office. When we endeavoured to get increases in wages for road workers we were told: ‘You cannot do it; it would seriously upset agricultural workers,' and when we tried to get an increase in wages for agricultural workers we were told: ‘You cannot do it because it would upset the balance between agricultural workers and local authority workers.'"

Then, dealing with this question of increased contributions, Deputy Cowan referring to the present Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Dr. Ryan, said at column 246:—

"Now the Deputy has somersaulted and says that we do not need any increase in contributions but can raise the necessary funds by taxation. What does that show to me? It shows a Party that is dishonest. It shows a Party which knows, which must know, that it will not assume the responsibility of office again; it shows a Party in defeat attempting to gain the few miserable votes that will keep some of them in Parliament after the next election."

And the gallant Captain, Deputy Cowan, finished with a flourish:—

"Once Fianna Fáil have taken the line of opposing progress, there is a war on between the progressives and Fianna Fáil and in that warfare Fianna Fáil are going to the wall. They deserve to go to the wall."

That is a public representative who apparently, with such a complete disregard for his promises, is now going to vote for this measure.

I indicated, at the outset of my statement to the House, the approach which I would suggest should be taken to the whole question of social welfare. I am sorry that this measure is introduced in the kind of atmosphere that precludes any reasonable or objective discussion of the social welfare requirements of this State. I think that the Minister in reply should at least seek to give some justification for the flagrant breach of election promises in this case. I think this is called for if public life is to maintain any vestige of respect in the eyes of the people.

I am sorry the Minister is not in the House now as there is another matter to which I want to refer before concluding. A good deal of heat was engendered the other day during the discussion of this measure because some Deputies in the House referred to the fact that the Minister was a director of an insurance company and is closely involved in an insurance company.

I know the Minister for a number of years and have respect for his personal integrity. I want, therefore, to make it quite clear that anything I say in this respect is not intended to convey that the Minister has acted dishonestly in the personal sense in this matter but I feel that, as a public representative, it is my duty to enter a protest at the fact that the Minister in charge of a measure of this kind should be somebody who is closely involved, financially and otherwise, in the operation of a private insurance company.

The Bill which passed the Second Reading in this House and which was introduced by the last Government provided for two particular features of vital importance, the payment of retirement pensions at the age of 65 on the one hand and the payment of death benefits on the other. These two provisions were opposed by the insurance companies on the ground that they cut into the business of the insurance companies.

To say the least of it, it is undesirable that a Minister who is himself closely allied and involved in the workings of an insurance company should be in charge of a measure which cuts out the death benefits and which cuts out the retirement pensions; the two provisions of the Social Welfare Bill which were opposed by the insurance companies. I feel that I am entitled to make this comment now to the House particularly because some months ago I drew the attention of the Taoiseach in this House to the fact that it was undesirable that the present Minister for Health and Social Welfare should be entrusted with the particular task of drawing up a Social Welfare Bill having regard to his close association with an insurance company.

On that occasion I pointed out to the Taoiseach in this House that a maxim which we have in the law world is one that should also be applied to such a situation. We say in the law world that justice must not only be fair but must also appear to be fair. I would suggest that in public life there must not only be complete personal integrity but there must also appear to be complete personal integrity and that it would be very hard to eradicate from the minds of the people that a decision to remove death benefits from the ambit of this Bill and the decision to do away with retirement pensions were not in some degree influenced by the fact that the Minister in charge of this Bill is himself closely associated with an insurance company.

As I said at the outset, I do not suggest that the Minister is consciously doing this because of any question of personal gain but I do think that it is undesirable that in this case the Minister should have been involved with the cutting out of these two benefits. I hope the Minister will not think when he reads this—he has just returned to the House now—that I have brought this up merely to make a personal attack on him.

What else is it?

I have done it as part of my duty as a public representative in this House to draw attention to the matter. As the Minister will recollect I drew the attention of the people to this matter some months ago and said I thought it was undesirable that the Minister should occupy the two positions particularly in view of the fact that he was involved in an insurance company.

Since the Second Reading of this particular Bill was introduced the debate and the attitude of the country have been marked by certain significant features. The one that struck me particularly was the silence of the Fianna Fáil Deputies on this particular measure. I do not know what their reason is but it is significant that we had about four or five speakers, excluding the Minister, from the Fianna Fáil Benches as against the spate of speakers we had last year when the Norton Bill was being debated. I think I would be correct in saying that any of the Fianna Fáil speakers who did rise to their feet did so because they were dragged to their feet by their opposite numbers in the various constituencies.

I rather imagine, therefore, that the silence of the Fianna Fáil Deputies can only be explained by saying that they anticipated or had some prior general knowledge of the Budget proposals and that even to them Deputy Dr. Ryan's Social Security Bill did not seem one-tenth as attractive as what it was represented to be when Deputy Dr. Ryan, as he then was, spoke in this House on the measure of last year. I think that even since the terms of the Budget have been made known the Bill fades into absolute insignificance as far as the insured workers, the old age pensioners and the widows and orphans are concerned.

The second feature was the provocative speech of a Minister who is generally a reasonable man, especially when moving the Second Reading of a Bill. Knowing him slightly better than most other Deputies, I wondered why he went out of his way on this occasion to be bitter and spiteful. Then I remembered the bitterness and spite of every single one of the Fianna Fáil Ministers since they returned to office nine or ten months ago. If we are to gauge his fury, bitterness, and spite from his first speech, we may expect twice as much bitterness, spite and provocation when he winds up this debate this evening.

I rather imagined that the Minister's Second Reading speech would be merely an explanation of the Bill. Actually, the Minister was on the defensive at one stage and at another stage he was on the offensive. In short, his speech was a personal attack, in my opinion, on the man responsible for introducing a Bill during the régime of the inter-Party Government. It is true that there was a delay in the introduction of the Norton Bill, but I think the Minister would be the first to admit and appreciate the difficulties a Minister would have and the difficulties his officials would have in framing a comprehensive scheme of social security. It must be remembered also that for the first few months he was in office Deputy Norton, when he was Minister, was engaged in preparing another Bill which was framed to relieve the circumstances of old age pensioners and widows and orphans. If it were to be boiled down, I should say that the alleged delay would be in the region of one year and nine months as far as the Norton Bill was concerned.

There was no genuine attempt by the Minister or by the members of his Party to refute the allegation that, when Deputy Norton went into the Department, he saw nothing more there than a scrap of paper from the previous Minister. I do not allege that the Minister intended to deceive the House. I would like, however, carefully to scrutinise the bundle of documents which he laid on the desk in front of him which he sarcastically referred to as "the scrap of paper". For all the House knows, it might be a collection of reports from the international Labour Office or documents in connection with the Beveridge Plan. It could be merely the ordinary information contained in any Department of Social Welfare in any State. But the significant thing in connection with social security is that, despite the six or seven questions which Deputy McGrath put down, there was no real clamour and no demand from the Fianna Fáil Party during that three years for a comprehensive scheme of social security as envisaged by Deputy Norton. It was merely in the nature of a taunt from the Fianna Fáil Party to Deputy Norton to try to rush him into producing some sort of comprehensive scheme of social security. There was no real clamour from the Fianna Fáil Party.

In his speech last March, Deputy Cowan recognised that and accused the Fianna Fáil Party, and rightly so, of not having any real interest in the production of a comprehensive scheme of social security. The Minister tells us that it took him only nine months. I think I would be correct in saying that the last major piece of legislation in respect of social security under the Fianna Fáil Government was passed in 1943 with regard to children's allowances. From that up to 1947, or the beginning of 1948, there was no major piece of legislation introduced by Fianna Fáil with regard to social security.

I would say that, by their silence, when Deputy Norton's scheme of social security was introduced, the Fianna Fáil Party did a great disservice to the insured workers and those people who are dependent on social services, because Deputy Norton at that time had to meet a barrage of criticism from every conceivable source which condemned the very principle of social security. Every chamber of commerce, every organisation of employers, practically every employing section in the State who would be forced, if you like, to contribute in one way or another, raised their voices as loud as they could, not against any particular scheme, but against a comprehensive scheme of social security. It was only when the Second Reading of Deputy Norton's Bill was being discussed in this House that we got the "pipsqueak" declaration by the spokesmen of the Fianna Fáil Party that they were in favour of the principle of social security.

We wonder now where does Deputy Cogan stand, where does Deputy Lehane stand, where does Deputy Flynn stand. We did not hear them in this debate quoting the moralists or alleging that social security was bad on moral grounds. But, merely because they are more interested in keeping their seats, we have their defence for voting for this particular Bill and the allegation that Deputy Norton's amendment is a mere political trick.

As far as the actual Bill is concerned, there is no necessity for me to repeat what has been said by the members of the Labour Party, that we do not oppose this Bill. A Bill like this, which will undoubtedly improve to some limited extent the lot of certain people. has our approval. But this amendment has been tabled in an effort to demonstrate that this Bill does not represent a comprehensive scheme of social security. Therefore, I propose to deal with the things that are not in the Bill and which we suggest, through our amendment, should be in the Bill if it is to be regarded as in any way approaching a comprehensive scheme of social security.

The Minister was quite casual when he dismissed with a sort of wave of his hand the necessity for having domestic workers and female farm workers included. I think there is a case for that. The Minister says that he is advised that unemployment, as far as domestic workers is concerned, is not frequent. I think it is, to a limited extent. Where there is unemployment amongst that particular class, even though it is limited, I think that they should be given the benefit of anything the State can offer. There is another question which I should like the Minister to clear up, and that is whether or not domestic workers in hospitals or other institutions would be regarded as being outside the scope of this Bill. If they are to be deprived of the benefits under this Bill, I think it is very undesirable.

One of the most important omissions, as far as the Bill is concerned, is that in connection with retirement pensions. Now I would like to refute an oft-repeated allegation by a member of the House from my own constituency, Deputy Allen. In the House last year, Deputy Allen stated very emphatically that the Norton Bill endeavoured to compel people to retire at 65 years of age. That was not so bad because it could be contradicted here but at column 576 of the Official Debates of 11th April, 1951, Deputy Allen said:—

"We are not, however, agreed that everyone in this country, when he or she comes to 65, should be compelled to retire and should be given a retiring pension. We are not agreed on that, and that is where we join issue in the main with the Minister on this Bill."

But that was not sufficient for Deputy Allen. Next I heard him state it down in his constituency. At every public meeting which he addressed in the last election he broadcast to his various audiences, as far as the inter-Party Government was concerned, and as far as Deputy Norton was concerned, that they wanted this social security measure to compel people to retire at 65.

I do not know whether the Minister ever stated that or not but I give him credit for having a little more political honesty in that respect than his colleague would have. Such unscrupulous statements are not worthy of a man like Deputy Allen who has been in public life in his own county for so long. We do not want people to retire at 65. What we want, by our amendment, what we had intended in the Norton Bill was that if a man found that he was not in a position to work, if he was unable to work or if he could not get work, he could have the security of knowing that at the age of 65 years he would be entitled, without a means test, to a retirement pension. The Minister for Social Welfare, in his Second Reading speech, put forward various reasons as to the undesirability of not even offering a man a retirement pension at the age of 65. I think Deputy McGrath instanced cases of workers in the City of Cork who were still working at the age of 65. It is possible, but they are the exception rather than the rule. I think Deputy McGrath will agree, and it has been my experience as well, that on any of the local authorities' building schemes on any particular job where the work is heavy, there are very few employers, if any, who will take a man at that particular age. There are pitiable instances in my own town where a man who is over 60 years of age approaches the local ganger, the local foreman or the local engineer asking for a job and the reply is always in the negative.

The same provision is there.

The same provision is not there. The provision here means that they are subjected to the very same scrutiny as they would be in the ordinary circumstances when they were applying for unemployment assistance or unemployment benefit; they must prove to the satisfaction of the local labour exchange overseer that they are suitable for work and willing to work. I do not think that is much of a concession to a man at 65 because the cases I have in mind are those of men who consider themselves to be suitable for work, able to work and, above all, willing to work, but no employer will take them.

Therefore, I think the Minister ought to reconsider his decision not to include retirement pensions in social security schemes in this country. I can tell the Minister on behalf of the people I represent in my constituency, that there is a strong and urgent demand for retirement pensions or, if you like, old age pensions, at the age of 65, giving the person the option of continuing work beyond 65 or 70 if he or she so desires.

The joke of the whole business is that retirement pensions are denied to manual workers. We have heard a lot of criticism about social security and the principle has been attacked. Deputy Cogan says we are pampering one section of the community, that a minority section in the country must contribute to do this. I know that Deputy Cogan and every other Deputy in this House keep in close contact with their constituents, but do they ever stop to realise the insecurity that the majority of the workers, especially in the rural areas, have at the present time? Do they ever stop to think of the times when a rural worker, who is depending for his employment on the local county council, has to suffer the indignity—and no other word can describe it—of going either to the ganger or the local district engineer three or four times a year to ask him, for God's sake, to give him employment? Everyone knows there is not continuity of employment as far as the local authorities are concerned. Hundreds of people in each county who are dependent for their employment on the local authorities are idle for three or four or five times during the year and, as far as security is concerned, in their cases there is no such thing.

The critics of social security in this country are the people who have security, either by reason of the fact that they are in pensionable employment or by reason of the fact that their income during the year is sufficient to enable them to provide against the different hazards that beset the ordinary individual during his or her lifetime. Therefore, I think it is a pertinent question for each and every one of us to ask: if retirement pensions are to be denied to the carpenter, the mason, the bricklayer, the agricultural labourer, the dock labourer, the road worker, why have we in this country a system whereby civil servants are given free non-contributory pensions at the age of 65?

I think again it is pertinent to ask why local government officials are given pensions at the age of 65; in the majority of cases they have not to contribute one penny for them. I wonder would Deputy Cogan imagine, urge or submit to this House that civil servants were being pampered and that the ordinary taxpayers of this country were paying for that, because as I said, these pensions are free and the taxpayers of this country have contributed. The same applies as far as Local Government officials are concerned and no less than a week or two ago we had the Minister for Local Government defending his action in directing a local authority to require rate collectors in the different local authorities to retire at the age of 65.

Every member of the Labour Party in the Cork County Council voted for it a couple of months ago.

I would not attempt to take responsibility for the actions of the Cork Deputies. I think one of the most important features of the Norton Bill was the death benefit. As Deputy MacBride has rightly said, this is a hazard of life which is certain to beset practically every single family. I would reiterate what has often been thrown against one of the members of the Fine Gael Party: social services are a lot of medicine bottles to be taken out when necessary. It will be ever thus until we can get, first of all, a decent wage standard in this country, and secondly, until we can get for the workers of this country some security as far as continuity of employment is concerned. As long as wages are not what they should be and as long as there is no security in employment, we will have to have schemes of social security. I feel that one of the most charitable acts, despite what Deputy Cogan says, which the taxpayers of this country can do is to partially contribute towards the payment of a gratuity to certain workers in this country when they meet the unfortunate and expensive hazard of a death in the family. In my opinion, if this were included in a scheme of social security it would be an absolute and real benefit for all families.

I am sure the Minister will agree with me that I would not say anything derogatory with regard to any of my opposite numbers. Deputy Dr. Browne, when speaking on this measure, said at column 1010 of the Official Reports, on the 1st April, 1952:—

"I will make certain that I will try very hard indeed before giving Deputy Norton and his associates in the inter-Party Government—the Fine Gael organisation and the other organisations—an opportunity of restoring the medical association to the Custom House and the other similar powerful vested interests..."

Judging from that, Deputy Dr. Browne infers that Deputy Norton and his colleagues capitulated in favour of the medical association. My feeling is that the Minister and the Government capitulated to the insurance companies of this country as far as the dropping of the death benefits is concerned. Even though the Norton Bill provided for an increased contribution of 1/2 per week, that 1/2 would have been justified so as to meet the various expenses which a family has to meet when a death occurs. We are all aware that, in the majority of the families, whether they be in the towns, the cities or in the rural areas, contributions of 2d., 3d., 4d., 5d., 6d., and, in some cases, up to 1/- per week are being paid in respect of every single member—father, mother and children—so as to provide against the hazard of death and so as to have-something to offset the abnormal expenses of such a time.

I feel it is deplorable that a marriage gratuity should be substituted for the death grant. Death comes unexpectedly and is a real hazard. I feel sure I would not get universal support if I said marriage was not a hazard. However, marriage is something for which a couple prepare. They are aware it is coming off for some weeks or months before the actual date of the marriage. On the other hand, death may strike at a family quite suddenly and they are not prepared for it usually. We should, therefore, make certain that these families would be insured against the abnormal expenses which crop up when a death occurs.

The Fianna Fáil members, to my view, feel very strongly on the dropping from this Bill of the maternity grant. This also is a time of abnormal expense. It is a time when money has to be gathered and gathered quickly. The proposals in the Norton Bill, whereby a maternity grant of £5 was to be given and whereby an attendance allowance for three or four weeks after the birth of the child was provided, was a desirable form of insurance. The tendency is, of necessity, when a death or birth occurs, that the family concerned find themselves paying off for weeks afterwards the abnormal expense which arises on these occasions.

I would have thought that the Fianna Fáil Party would feel more strongly about the point of including the small farmer than on any other point. However, they have turned completely on their heels. That, I feel, was evidenced by the very, very short contribution which Deputy Corry made on this measure last week. I was in the House expecting to speak, and I felt that Deputy Corry was good for an hour and a quarter. I was robbed of my opportunity to speak, however, because when I returned to the House after an absence of ten minutes I found that the long-winded Deputy Corry did not say two words about the small farmer or about any other type of farmer. Deputy Tom Brennan waxed eloquent on the subject of the small farmer last year, as also did the present Minister for Finance and practically every other Deputy on the Fianna Fáil Benches. These people were against the Norton Bill because it did not include enough benefit for this section of the community. The Norton Bill did something for the small farmers, but this Bill does practically nothing.

As far as the reversal of the Fianna Fáil policy, to some extent, on social security is concerned, perhaps it would be no harm to quote the present Taoiseach. This, I must confess, even though the storm had been going on for months, was the first indication from Fianna Fáil, and, indeed, it was only pipsqueak, that they favoured a comprehensive social security scheme. I am quoting from the Irish Press of the 12th February, 1951. On this occasion the Taoiseach was addressing the County Cavan Comhairle Dáil Ceanntair. He said:—

"It was becoming a more and more serious question for every State in the world. You have two extremes of thought. In one, the position is that of laissez faire— don't interfere, let things be, let the State keep out of it, and let the individual be free to act for himself in whatever condition he may find himself. Those who supported that point of view claimed that, if that system was allowed to operate fully, the best would come to the top and that there would be no more inducement to everyone to think harder and work harder, and that the whole position of the community under such a system would improve.

On the other side, they had those who stood for what might be called the welfare State, a State which would entitle the individual, by reason of his being a member of the community, to be safeguarded by the community's actions from the sufferings which might befall him and which were outside his own control. These included such things as special demands on the family at times of birth, during the infancy of the child; demands made by incapacity from work, unemployment, disablement and death."

That shows that the Taoiseach, then Deputy de Valera, thought we should provide help for a family in the case of a birth and above all that he thought we should provide insurance for them against the abnormal expenses when a death occurs. He said that not less than 12 months ago; and here we have a situation, whether it is due to the pressure of the little man from Threadneedle Street—the Minister for Finance—or whether it is due to the Central Bank, where even the Taoiseach is forced to turn in his tracks and say that we cannot provide adequately for maternity and that we cannot provide anything in the way of death grants.

Above all, as I have said already, we find that the Fianna Fáil Party have turned in their tracks as far as the small farmers are concerned. Deputy Tom Brennan stated in the Dáil on 11th April, 1951 at column 547 of the Official Reports:—

I bewail the fact that almost one-half of the workers of the country, represented particularly by the small farmers, are not covered by the scheme. I hold that it is a misnomer to call any scheme of social insurance which does not make provision for these people, comprehensive. A big number of workers are not covered by this scheme, such as the small farmers, the self-employed man, fishermen, and other classes. We are making provision for people who are earning good wages and whose income is, perhaps, treble that of the small farmer on the hillsides or on the bogs. To me, the irony of the whole thing is that, while we are making a certain section of our people secure, the small farmer on the hills and on the bogs and the fishermen, the people who always upheld the national tradition in this country, are left out."

If Deputy Norton left them out, the present Minister for Social Welfare kicked them out. The Minister for Finance, when Deputy MacEntee, also waxed eloquent about the non-inclusion of the small farmers. Again, somebody seems to have got his way— either Deputy MacEntee, in a change of policy, or the Central Bank. The small farmers have not been included in a scheme of social security.

I have mentioned that Deputy Norton's Bill was opposed on the grounds that it was not comprehensive enough. I wonder, if the members of the Fianna Fáil Party were to express their honest view, if they would say whether the present Minister's Bill is comprehensive or not. I think the most important feature with regard to this particular measure is the question of paying for the scheme. I admit that the big attraction of Deputy Dr. Ryan's pronouncement last March, or the attraction in the general election promise, was that under his particular scheme the workers would not be asked to contribute anything. When Fianna Fáil tramped the country in the general election of 1951, it was belled into the heads of the workers that if they put Fianna Fáil back they would get exactly what was in the Norton scheme and would not have to pay 1d. for it. They are now getting what was in the Norton scheme—with six omissions— and they have to pay an increased contribution. The contribution is not as high as it would have been under the Norton Bill, but the extra benefits under the Norton Bill very well compensated the worker.

I warned the workers in my constituency that if Deputy Dr. Ryan, as he then was, introduced a comprehensive scheme of social security and did not demand a contribution from the workers they would be forced to pay it by way of taxation. I think last Wednesday has admirably demonstrated that if Fianna Fáil were prepared to give a scheme of social security to the workers of this country they would make them pay dearly for it. The terms of last Wednesday's Budget have indicated to every worker in this country that if he is getting a scheme from the Fianna Fáil Government he will pay dearly for it.

As far as the scheme itself is concerned, the worker must pay an extra 5d. per week. I submit that, with the withdrawal of the food subsidies, the contribution in respect of the averagesized family will be two and three times what was required under the Norton Bill. Let us take, for example, a family of five—a man, his wife and three children. The reliefs to be afforded to that family by way of children's allowances will amount to 4/- per week—2/6 for the second child and 1/6 extra for the third child. If that family consume the ordinary ration of tea, sugar, butter and bread they will pay an extra 6/7 per week which, with the extra 5d. which must be paid under this Bill, will amount to 7/- per week. I am talking now only of the increase in the price of tea, butter, sugar and bread and of the reliefs afforded to such a family under the Budget which the Minister for Finance read last Wednesday. I am not even mentioning beer and cigarettes—things that the Fianna Fáil Government have declared, by inference, to be luxuries to the ordinary workers of this country. When the reliefs which the Minister proposes to give are deducted from the increased price of butter, sugar, tea and bread that family will have to pay an extra 7/- per week on the ordinary ration of these foods.

I do not think a family of six would be an abnormal example to quote as far as this Bill is concerned. Taking merely the present ration of tea, sugar, butter and bread it means that, if one offsets the reliefs afforded by way of children's allowances, the increased cost of food for that family, consisting of a man, his wife and four children, will amount to 7/8 per week. Again, I would point out that that does not give one halfpenny extra to buy a bottle of stout or a packet of Woodbines or a packet of Players.

Now let us consider a family of seven consisting of a man, his wife and five children. Again, I do not think such a family could be regarded as abnormal in size. Under the recent Budget proposals such a family will get relief to the extent, I think, of 7/- but they will have to pay 14/10½ extra for their foodstuffs. That means, when the reliefs are deducted, an increase of 7/10½ plus the 5d. which will be required under this scheme. That family of seven will, therefore, have to pay 8/3½ or 8/4 extra. In these circumstances was it not absolute fraud for the Fianna Fáil Party and their spokesmen in the last general election, and even within the past ten months, to say that they would give the people a comprehensive scheme of social security and that no contributions would be required?

I submit that, even though the Norton Bill was objected to by Deputy Cogan and Deputy Lehane, and though it was approved of by Deputy Cowan, it was a more reasonable scheme than the present Fianna Fáil scheme when we couple with it the proposals announced by the Minister for Finance in his Budget of last week. The workers are paying through the nose for this scheme.

They are paying for the last three and a half years.

That is a little stale now.

It certainly is. The way you squandered it.

There is only one way to test that, Deputy.

Ah, they would not chance it that way.

Deputy Corish is not doing badly on the Budget. He has been discussing it fairly fully.

Deputy Corish, without interruption.

This amendment was tabled by the members of the Labour Party in order to get a full discussion on the different proposals which were in the Norton Bill —all except No. 5—and to get some indication of the Minister's views. The Minister has assured the House that he would be open to consider the inclusion of the retirement benefit and, to some extent, the death grant, in the near future if he thought there was a demand for it.

We are not opposed to the present Bill. We do not intend to vote against it. Neither do we intend to press this amendment to a division in this House.

Debate adjourned.
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