Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 6 Jun 1952

Vol. 132 No. 6

Social Welfare (No. 2) Bill, 1951—From the Seanad.

The Dáil went into Committee to consider amendments from the Seanad.

Minister for Social Welfare (Dr. Ryan)

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 1:—

In sub-section (4), page 9, line 19, the words "sub-section (4) of Section 4", deleted.

As the Bill stands, the Minister cannot take from the classes to be covered by the Bill except by bringing a motion for approval before both Houses. You would have to add to the classes by mere regulation. The purpose of the first two amendments is to compel the Minister to get the approval of the Dáil and the Seanad if he wants to have those insured under the Bill. For instance, those with an income of £600 are covered and if those two amendments were not inserted the Minister could by regulation raise that ceiling. If the amendments are accepted by the Dáil, then the Minister cannot raise the ceiling unless he gets the approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas.

Amendment agreed to.

Dr. Ryan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 2:—

In sub-section (6), page 10, line 16, the words "sub-section (4) or" before "sub-section (5)" inserted.

That amendment goes with the other one.

Amendment agreed to.

Dr. Ryan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 3:—

In sub-section (1), page 13, before paragraph (v) a new paragraph inserted as follows:—

"(b) persons employed in a statutory transport undertaking, or".

As the Bill stands, the Minister has a certain amount of discretion in dealing with certain classes in the Civil Service, local authorities and public authorities. As was pointed out, when the Bill was being discussed, many of these classes of employees are covered for sickness and unemployment and it will be only necessary to apply this Bill in respect of widows' and orphans' pensions. Córas Iompair Éireann is not a public authority. They have got a good scheme as far as their clerical grades are concerned for sickness benefit and, of course, they are safe against unemployment. It is only necessary to apply the widows' and orphans' part of the insurance to them and this amendment is necessary in order to do that. As far as the other employees of Córas Iompair Éireann, outside the clerical grades, are concerned they will come in under the full scope of the Bill.

Mr. Norton

What is the position of the Electricity Supply Board? Is that a public authority?

Dr. Ryan

Yes.

Mr. Norton

What is the position of the sugar company? Is that a public authority?

Dr. Ryan

No.

Mr. O'Higgins

Why do you say that Córas Iompair Éireann is not a public authority?

Dr. Ryan

Córas Iompair Éireann is not defined as a public authority and the Bill can only deal with public authorities.

Mr. Norton

Take the sugar company and the mineral development company. In what categories are those bodies? Are they public authorities?

Dr. Ryan

No.

Mr. Norton

What is the position of employees under those bodies? Vis-à-vis the State and vis-à-vis this House they appear to be in much the same position as Córas Iompair Éireann.

Dr. Ryan

With regard to the statutory authorities mentioned by the Deputy, the Electricity Supply Board is the only public authority. Mianraí Teoranta, etc., will come under the scope of this Bill.

Mr. Norton

You have not the power of exemption which you have in respect of civil servants, Guards, teachers and others?

Dr. Ryan

That is right.

Mr. Norton

Does the Minister intend that these other bodies, such as the sugar company, although they have pension rights and sick pay benefits comparable to the Civil Service or to Córas Iompair Éireann sick pay benefits will, nevertheless, be brought within the scope of the Bill from the point of view of compulsory insurance?

Dr. Ryan

They will. They were never exempted. The only authority exempted was the Electricity Supply Board. They will continue as they are. Córas Iompair Éireann was exempted to some extent for unemployment insurance.

Mr. Norton

That is in the case of a person who had three years' continuous employment and the employer gave him a certificate that there would be no likelihood of his services being dispensed with. Do I take it that the right to secure exemption will also go so far as the ordinary employees of Córas Iompair Éireann are concerned?

Dr. Ryan

No. The ordinary employees will come in under the Bill.

Mr. Norton

That means that it will go?

Dr. Ryan

The privilege will go.

Mr. Norton

In other words, those railwaymen who, in the past, could get a certificate of exemption where they had three years' service and where the employer would give a certificate that it was clear their services would not be dispensed with cannot for the future get such exemption?

Dr. Ryan

No.

Mr. Norton

They will be brought under this Bill and will have to pay contributions in the ordinary way?

Dr. Ryan

Yes.

Mr. Norton

Has the Minister seen the Minister for Finance about these employees which we discussed under Section 12, Part I of the First Schedule, the Civil Service, teachers and Guards?

Dr. Ryan

Yes.

Mr. Norton

Is it now clear that they are definitely out?

Dr. Ryan

That is right.

Mr. Norton

But that they will be covered under this Bill for widows' and orphans' pensions purposes?

Dr. Ryan

Yes, those under £600.

Mr. Norton

Those at present employed and to be employed?

Dr. Ryan

Those employed in the future also.

Amendment agreed to.

Dr. Ryan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 4:—

In page 43, line 32, the words "or made under" inserted before the word "sections".

Amendments Nos. 4, 5, 7 and 8 are drafting amendments. The words were in all previous Acts but through some oversight they were left out of this Act.

Amendment agreed to.

Dr. Ryan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 5:—

In page 49, line 27, the words "or made under" inserted before the word "sections".

Amendment agreed to.

Dr. Ryan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 6:—

In sub-section (1), page 57, line 28, the word and figures "and 106" deleted and figures "106, 109, 110, 111, 112, 114 and 117" substituted.

This amendment is not exactly the same. There is a clause, under the widows' and orphans' pensions part of the Bill, which says that no widow will receive less after the 1st July than she receives at the moment. The purpose of this amendment is to extend that to other things in case it might be necessary. Personally, I do not know of any case where it would be.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

With regard to the non-contributory pensions, could the Minister give us some information. He said he would consider reducing the age from 48 downwards to some other age while the Bill was being considered in the Seanad. A number of widows are looking forward to this.

Dr. Ryan

I did consider the matter but actually decided against it because it was either financially or administratively impossible. What I had in mind was a suggestion by some Deputy that for the widow who is going out you might have a lower age limit than for the widow coming in for the first time. As Deputies are aware, the widow without children does not get a pension unless she is 48 and to reduce that to 45 would be very costly.

Mr. Norton

Would the Minister say how much?

Dr. Ryan

It would be in the region of about £80,000. That is only a very rough estimate.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

The dance hall tax would do that.

Dr. Ryan

What?

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

I do not want to draw the Minister into that.

Dr. Ryan

It would be costly. The other thing that was suggested was to leave the widow coming in for the first time as she is but to make a concession in the case of a widow, who has been in, whose youngest child reaches 16 and who goes out again. I believe that would be administratively very difficult unless it was done all round. Therefore, I had to drop the idea.

Mr. O'Leary

Take the case of a widow who becomes eligible for an old age pension. When she reaches the age of 70 she will lose.

Dr. Ryan

I do not know what the Deputy means.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

The point Deputy O'Leary wants to make is that a widow who would be in receipt of a contributory pension at 69 to 70, when she has to receive the old age pension, loses something.

Dr. Ryan

She does. That is true. Of course, there is more than that in it. The Deputy has not, if you like, given the full picture there, because she may get no old age pension, due to the fact that she has means. She may get the widow's pension but on account of means she may get no old age pension.

Mr. O'Leary

When her husband was a contributor as a worker he would have no means but her pension will be reduced to the amount of the old age pension.

Dr. Ryan

Means will not interfere with her widow's pension. She will get that pension no matter what her means are. I was helping the Deputy to make a bad case against me by saying she might get no old age pension.

Mr. Rooney

I want to make one point to the Minister. Would it not be possible to give the widow the option of continuing to receive her contributory pension when she reaches the age of 70 instead of disqualifying her just because she has reached that age? Obviously when she is 69 she has certain rights, and just because she has reached 70 she finds herself in a different position and that her income is going to be abolished or reduced. Her means would probably be the same at 69 as they will prove to be at the age of 70, when the question of the old age pension arises.

Dr. Ryan

That is quite true. There is no doubt her means would be the same but the point I was making was that it might conceivably happen that a widow was left a lot of money. She would still draw her contributory pension until 70 but then, when she applied for the old age pension, her means would count. What the Deputy wants, apparently, is that a woman should draw a contributory pension for life and not stop at 70. We would have to recast the finances for that purpose because, being a contributory scheme, the contributions would have to be increased. It is a matter that would require consideration.

Mr. O'Higgins

It will be amended some time.

Dr. Ryan

I suppose it will.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

I suppose there will be an endeavour at some future stage on the Government's part to raise sufficient money to reduce the age in respect of the widow who is in receipt of the non-contributory pension.

Dr. Ryan

As the Deputy knows, every time these Bills come in there is some improvement.

Amendment agreed to.

Dr. Ryan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 7:—

In Section 121, page 57, line 42, the words "or made under" inserted before the word "sections".

Question agreed to.

Dr. Ryan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 8:—

In Section 123, page 58, line 36, the words "or made under" inserted before the word "sections".

Question agreed to.

Amendments reported and agreed to.

Ordered that the Seanad be informed accordingly.