Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Jul 1952

Vol. 133 No. 11

Financial Business—Closure Motion.

An Tánaiste

I move:—

(a) That the proceedings on the Estimates for Public Services for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1953, in Committee on Finance and on Report, and on the Resolution, in Committee on Finance and on Report, for the issue out of the Central Fund of the sum necessary to make good the supply granted for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1953, if not previously brought to a conclusion shall be brought to a conclusion at 11 p.m. on Thursday, 24th July, 1952, by putting from the Chair forthwith and successively the questions necessary to bring such proceedings to a conclusion; Provided that after the said hour on the said day a question shall not be put from the Chair on any amendment, nor upon any motion other than a motion necessary to bring the proceedings forthwith to a conclusion and then only when moved by the Government; Provided also that after the said hour on the said day only one question shall be put from the Chair in Committee on Finance on the Estimates then outstanding and that that question shall be in the form, that the total sum outstanding in respect of the Estimates for Public Services for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1953, be granted for the service of that year; and that on the report of the Resolutions of the Committee on Finance, in respect of the several Estimates, only one question shall be put from the Chair, namely, that the Dáil agrees with the Committee on Finance in the said Resolutions;

(b) That the First Stage of the Appropriation Bill, 1952, shall be proceeded with immediately upon the conclusion of the proceedings on the Estimates for Public Services for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1953; that the Second Stage and the remaining stages of the said Bill, if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion at 11.55 p.m. on Thursday, 24th July, 1952, by putting from the Chair forthwith and successively the questions necessary to bring the stages of the said Bill to a conclusion and without interrupting the proceedings as provided by Standing Order 20 (2); Provided that after the said hour on the said day a question shall not be put from the Chair on any amendment, nor upon any motion other than a motion necessary to bring the proceedings forthwith to a conclusion and then only when moved by the Government; Provided also that in Committee on the Appropriation Bill, 1952, only one question shall be put from the Chair, namely, that the several sections stand part of and that the Schedules and the Title be the Schedules and the Title to the Bill.

I should explain to the House that this motion was put upon the Order Paper on the assumption that, arising out of certain discussions which were proceeding between the Whips of the various Parties, there would be agreement between them for an arrangement which would enable the financial business of this session to be brought to a conclusion to-morrow night. Perhaps I had better explain briefly the nature of the agreement contemplated. It was proposed that any Estimate which had not been reached by the time mentioned in the motion would be passed without debate and the Government would arrange to introduce a token Estimate for the same service in the autumn session so that the debate on the Estimate could then be taken.

Briefly the arrangement was one to make provision for the necessary moneys for the service and the postponement of the debate until the autumn session. I should also explain to the Dáil that if no agreement of this kind can be made, it will be necessary to ask the House to pass another Vote on Account. The main Vote on Account in respect of the public services in the present financial year covered the period from 1st April to 31st July, and, in the absence of any arrangement, and with the possibility that some of the Estimates would not be passed before the end of the month, another Vote on Account will be necessary. If therefore it is clear that no agreement of the kind contemplated can be made, it will be necessary to ask the Dáil to deal with that Vote on Account to-morrow. There has been some delay in introducing it, on the assumption that an agreement was possible, and there is now an element of urgency. The Vote on Account would have to be taken to-morrow and the Dáil would be asked to remain in session until that Vote on Account and the necessary Central Fund Bill had been disposed of, the debate on the remaining Estimates being carried over until next week.

Deputies may not appreciate that in the absence of sanction from the Dáil to incurring the necessary expenditure, certain difficulties would arise in meeting the cost of the remaining services, those not dealt with by the Dáil on the annual Estimate, after the end of the month and the Appropriation Bill would require to be passed by the Seanad next week so that it would be necessary for the Dáil to deal with it this week. I move the motion to test the feeling of the House. If it should not prove possible to get agreement, the House will understand that the discussion of the Estimates will have to be interrupted in order to get the Vote on Account to-morrow.

Mr. Sweetman

The Tánaiste inadvertently made one slip in what he said about the tentative agreement that might have been possible. It was that token Estimates would be introduced in respect of any Estimates not normally concluded now. An Estimate might be reached and not be concluded. Secondly, with regard to the Vote on Account, for what period will it be taken?

Mr. Lemass

Four months is the normal period.

Mr. Davin

The records of this House, so far as the discussion on the Estimates has gone up to the present, will clearly prove to any impartialminded Deputy that the members of this group have given helpful assistance and not obstruction to the business of the House. Members of the group have given very careful consideration to the drastic nature of this closure motion and cannot agree to accept it or vote for it in the form in which it is now presented to the House. We have still for consideration 36 Estimates and Supplementary Estimates, involving a total amount of £27,683,633 and including Estimates of such importance as Agriculture, Local Government, Health, External Affairs, if it is considered a major Estimate— Education, and, last but by no means least, the Department of the Taoiseach.

Mr. Cunningham

Education is finished.

Mr. Davin

I am sure it will be agreed that from six to ten of these Estimates are normally considered by Deputies and by groups as Estimates of major importance, involving matters of serious policy concerned. The members of this group are prepared to give further and reasonable consideration to the disposal of the remainder of the business and are prepared to come here next week on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, if necessary, for the purpose of concluding the discussion on the Estimates and giving the Appropriation Bill to the Government, which, I think, is the customary practice, before the end of July. Does anybody suggest that we would be doing our work efficiently on behalf of the people who sent us here if we passed these Estimates, involving almost £28,000,000, apart altogether from the importance of certain Estimates, under the terms of the motion moved by the Tánaiste? It is not fair to ask us to do so.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is not being asked to do so.

Mr. Davin

He is being asked to vote for a drastic closure motion.

Mr. Lemass

He is not. The Deputy is not being asked to vote for anything. The suggestion, as I understand it, is that the Estimates should be taken, if not reached, without discussion now and the debate and vote on them adjourned to the next session. It is a question of whether it is more convenient for the Dáil to discuss them through August or in October. That is the only question. There is no desire on the part of the Government to curtail discussion on these Estimates in the least. The arrangement contemplates providing an opportunity for the Dáil to discuss each one and get a vote on it, if that is desired.

Mr. Davin

I fully understand the meaning of the proposal so far as that is concerned, but I do not think, nor do members of this group think, that the House should adjourn without discussion of the Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach, especially in view of the industrial position in the country and the financial position, internal and international. Some date in next October, after the 22nd, is going to present a different picture altogether. I remember that, as the whip of this Party, as an officer of the Party, with the best will in the world, agreeing to an adjournment of a particular matter. I admit that there was no guarantee given by the Taoiseach at the time that if the position in the country became more serious the House would be recalled to discuss it. I also remember signing with a colleague of mine a request to the Taoiseach that the House should be recalled and giving the reasons for our request. We received a very polite refusal from the present Taoiseach. I think we are acting reasonably when we say we are prepared to come here next week for three days to assist the Government to get through the business which I know they must get through before 31st July and to get the Appropriation Bill—

Mr. Lemass

That is not enough.

Mr. Davin

——to the Seanad in time to enable it to become law. That is a fair proposal, but we are not prepared to accept this drastic closure motion and, by doing so, to get rid of 36 Estimates and Supplementary Estimates, involving the huge sum of approximately £28,000,000.

Mr. Lemass

It is not practicable to postpone the taking of the Appropriation Bill until next week. The Bill must be passed by the Seanad next week. In other words, we have to know where we stand to-day and take the Vote on Account to-morrow with the Central Fund Bill, or get the Estimates out of the way with the Appropriation Bill this week. We cannot leave the decision off until next week. If it would meet the Deputy's point and help to secure his agreement to the proposal in the motion, we might be able to arrange for taking a token vote for the Taoiseach's Department next week.

Mr. Davin

Are you going to give an undertaking to do so?

Mr. Lemass

So far as the Government are concerned, we will fall in with any arrangement agreeable to the House.

Mr. Sweetman

I did not quite follow the last statement of the Tánaiste.

Mr. Lemass

The suggestion was that this motion would be passed, the financial business formally disposed of by to-morrow and token votes for the remaining Estimates taken in the next session. If there was a desire to take a token vote for the Taoiseach's Department next week that could be arranged.

General Mulcahy

I find it difficult to appreciate Deputy Davin's point of view because it would constrain us in the discussion of these matters which I consider are very important to too short a space of time. He asks us to discuss these matters at a time when the House, due to pressure of parliamentary business, is not in a position to give the thought and preparation to these matters which they require. If we were to continue to-morrow as arranged with the Estimates or deal with the Appropriation Bill and then deal with adequate discussion with the remainder of the work on the Order Paper, even Bills, I do not think that the time of next week would be sufficient. There are for very many reasons a very large number of pressing problems in the country which are not fully envisaged at the moment, and the fact that we are without newspapers—I do not mean the publication of our speeches— makes the envisaging of these conditions in the country a matter of serious difficulty. If we take the Health, External Affairs and the Taoiseach's Estimate—to some extent the problems discussed as a matter of policy on the Department of Finance Estimate could more reasonably be discussed on the Taoiseach's Estimate—each might easily require a few weeks' discussion if the seriousness of the situation dictated. If we are called upon to deal with these matters now I do not think they can be effectively discussed.

All Deputies in the House will, I think, realise that the parliamentary year here is distorted due to the fact that the financial year ends on the 31st March. Our finances are of a kind which presses the session of the Dáil right into summer. The session could go to a substantial degree into the autumn from the point of view of the work that requires to be done. In the general climatic conditions in the country, it would be much more suitable if the discussion on financial matters could be advanced to the early part of the year and if we could finish the parliamentary session early in the summer.

I do not regard this as a closure motion. I regard it just as an Order of the House to arrange its business in a more satisfactory and effective way. There is no suggestion that anything which requires to be discussed is closed out of the discussion, but it is proposed by this Order, if the Dáil makes it, to postpone the discussion to a time when there would be not only a more satisfactory assembly of information but greater and more suitable time to deal with these subjects.

If the Tánaiste suggests "well and good, if you want a full discussion on the Taoiseach's Estimate as a matter of general policy that Estimate could be discussed next week," my own inclination would be against that, but if a substantial discussion is required, then I think that it would be possible, knowing that we were agreed to postpone the major discussions to a more suitable time, to finish the Estimates to-day or to-morrow so as to devote the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill to a discussion of any aspect of the matters of which Deputy Davin speaks. It is contemplated that the Dáil should sit from 10.30 a.m. until midnight to-morrow and I feel sure that matters of urgency could be discussed and terminated so that the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill could be dealt with to-morrow and during part of to-day. On full consideration I feel that that would suit the intention and convenience of every Deputy.

Mr. Dunne

At the outset the Tánaiste mistakenly stated that there was assumed agreement. There was no such agreement. We are satisfied that as far as the Labour Party was concerned no agreement existed regarding a closure motion. Our view has to some extent been put by Deputy Davin. We feel that it is not reasonable that members of the House should be asked to go their ways until next October while there remains on the Order Paper a considerable list of items of urgent public importance which require the attention of this House. If there are technical difficulties about the provision of moneys to carry on the concern they must necessarily be met by this House in the same way as anybody else, but no sufficient reason has been given why the members of the House should now go on holidays for almost three months instead of discussing the business of the country for which they were sent here. That is the view of our Party.

Captain Cowan

I feel that as we are discussing this matter we might—we probably do—throw our minds back to the considerable waste of time we have had in this House during the last six months. I understood, I mentioned here last night, I think everybody in the House knows, that there has been general agreement on the lines of the motion introduced by the Tánaiste. As he has said, there is no question of closuring anything because this is not a closure motion.

The suggestion that we wait until October to discuss financial matters by means of token Votes is not one that commends itself to me for the reason that the session from October to Christmas is the most valuable session in the year for getting necessary legislation through and for giving Deputies by the provision of Private Members' Time an opportunity of putting specific matters before the House.

Everybody knows that Estimates have got to be passed. Each Estimate gives an opportunity of discussing the administration of a different Department. I personally would have welcomed—and was anxious to take part in—a discussion on the Health, External Affairs and the Taoiseach's Estimates, but the Taoiseach's Estimate has always been taken as a discussion of broad general policy.

I see on the Order Paper motions to refer back the Taoiseach's Estimate signed by the leaders of the Labour Party. If there could be an agreement that we would discuss and conclude the Taoiseach's Estimate next week then I think that we should not put the financial business on the long finger for the autumn. The matters which I understand the Labour Party want to discuss could be discussed on the Taoiseach's Estimate. If we were to fall in with the Tánaiste's proposal, pass it to-morrow night and take a token Vote on which we could discuss them fully, that might be the proper way to do it.

It is very easy to talk about adjourning for three months while there is certain work to be done. After all, this Parliament is run as a machine—we have a staff and that staff has to be considered. The staff works for the whole year and I am sure the Labour Party would consider the staff of some importance in discussing the procedure of the House. The best thing for the Tánaiste to do would be to let the motion stand at the moment, let the Whips discuss it and see if a full week, even sitting long hours, could be given to the Taoiseach's Estimate—all night, if necessary—next week. When we finish next week, we could start in the autumn with business that awaited our attention then, and not have these Estimates coming along and eating into the time necessary for new legislation and Private Members' Business.

Mr. Morrissey

The issue here seems quite simple—it is a question as to whether we are going to have an adequate or an entirely inadequate discussion of the Estimates. As Deputy Davin said, there are about 35 Estimates, most of them grouped around main Estimates, involving between £28,000,000 and £30,000,000. No member with any experience of this House believes for a moment that by sitting three days next week you can get an adequate discussion of those 35 Estimates. That would be utterly impossible. Neither do I agree with the suggestion that the Taoiseach's Estimate should be taken next week and the discussion of the remaining Estimates deferred until the Autumn. I would not agree personally for a moment to taking the discussion in that order—the Taoiseach's Estimate has always been discussed at the end of the others and there is a very good reason for that.

I want to put it to Deputy Davin and Deputy Dunne that they cannot possibly get an adequate discussion on the remaining Estimates next week, even if we sat for the six days. Time could be usefully spent without any waste on a three-day discussion on the Taoiseach's Estimate in a general review and where are we going to find the time to do the others?

It seems to me that the suggested arrangement—I do not think it is any more than a suggestion—is, in all the circumstances, a sensible one which the House could accept. I would be inclined to agree with the suggestion by Deputy Cowan that further discussion could be deferred, to give the Whips an opportunity of meeting again, to see if they can come to an arrangement. From the point of view of an adequate and valuable discussion on the remaining Estimates, I think it could be much more fruitful next Autumn. I venture to say—and I have some experience here—that if this discussion is carried over until next week you will be lucky to have 50 per cent. of the members here. Even members of Dáil Eireann want to get out of this place some time—at least, they ought to. There are Deputies in all Parties who have work to do that is of as much national importance in their constituencies or on their farms as they have to do here. I do not know that the House ever sat later than we are sitting here to-day in any year since we first opened the doors. There were extra and unusual circumstances this year. The suggested agreement that we should finish financial business to-morrow night to enable it to be taken to the Seanad and disposed of the following week, and that we have full and adequate time for discussion on any Estimates we wish on the resumption in the Autumn, is a fair one and I think all sides, including Deputy Davin, will get better value from it.

An Tánaiste

If there is any advantage in postponing this motion until 6 o'clock, I am prepared to do so.

Mr. Davin

Is the Tánaiste giving a definite undertaking that there will be a discussion by way of a token Vote on the Taoiseach's Estimate next week, if that is acceptable to the other groups?

An Tánaiste

If it is accepted generally, yes.

Mr. Davin

The Tánaiste and his colleagues and members of the House can take it that we are not taking this line for purely obstruction purposes.

An Tánaiste

I agree.

Mr. Davin

This has been carefully considered by our Party and, whether it is a group with any wisdom or not, this attitude is the collective wisdom of the group, and I am entitled to make the case.

An Tánaiste

There was no suggestion of obstruction. It was purely a matter of trying to get agreement on the disposal of the business. If there is likely to be any value in having a meeting of the Whips, I would propose that this motion be postponed until 6 o'clock.

Mr. Sweetman

We feel it would be wrong to take the Taoiseach's Estimate before the others for obvious reasons, and I think that has been the Tánaiste's view.

An Tánaiste

Personally, I share that view strongly—and if I were in opposition, it would be stronger still.

Mr. Sweetman

Would it meet the position that the Estimates be taken by way of a token Vote and that the meeting of the House next week take the form of a holiday Adjournment debate, at which Deputy Davin would have scope for his points?

An Tánaiste

It would be better to let the suggestion stand now and adjourn the discussion until 6 o'clock. Meantime, the Whips can meet and see what can be arranged. If they do not agree, there is still time to put in the motion for a Vote on Account to-morrow.

Mr. Dillon

Might I ask the Whips, when meeting, to consider that, if we take a token Vote for the Taoiseach's Department next week, it will be discussed under the guillotine or else it may go over into the following week? I strongly deprecate any motion of this kind being discussed under a guillotine. It took six weeks to discuss my Estimates 12 months ago, and while I do not expect the Taoiseach's Estimate to take six, I could conceive it taking three.

Debate adjourned to 6 p.m.