Deputy Blowick raised the question of fruit growing. He put down a question asking what provision was made for fruit growers. As I pointed out in my reply to the Deputy, I have no function in the fixing of prices for fruit.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Agriculture (Resumed).
The Minister was dealing with artificial insemination. Had he finished what he proposed to say?
Mr. Walsh
Yes.
Will he not reconsider his decision to introduce Hereford bulls into these stations and leave those who want Hereford bulls to bring their cattle elsewhere?
Mr. Walsh
The Deputy means anything other than the Shorthorn breeds?
Shorthorn or Kerry.
Mr. Walsh
We have introduced Herefords.
I am asking the Minister not to introduce Herefords, to reconsider his decision and leave the stations for Shorthorns.
Mr. Walsh
There has been a demand for Herefords and Aberdeen Angus in many stations and in order to accommodate farmers who are anxious for them provision is made for them in the insemination stations.
Were the stations not primarily designed to improve the foundation breed?
Mr. Walsh
Of Shorthorn cattle— that is true.
Then why bring in Herefords?
Mr. Walsh
I am not in despair about our farmers, particularly our dairy farmers. I believe that they will use Herefords and Polled Angus judiciously. They are and must be careful of their dairy herds and if they are to maintain a dairy herd they must have a certain number of their best cows inseminated with the dairy Shorthorn breed. I have had experience and everybody has had experience of the type of cow which is not a first cross but rather a second or third cross of Herefords. I have advised farmers in every county I have visited that if we continue that policy we will eventually have in this country a cow which will not produce either beef or milk. I believe that our farmers are conscious of that fact particularly our dairy farmers and will use — we have not evidence to the contrary — dairy Shorthorn bulls the more so now that you have first-rate top quality bulls in the insemination stations.
The Minister has not details of the percentage?
Mr. Walsh
Not yet. I was remarking that I had no function in fixing prices for fruit. The only function I have in this matter is to issue licences for the import of pulp. I have already assured the Deputy in my reply that I will insist on our own fruit being purchased before import licences are granted. The quantity of pulp imported now is very small but however small it may be we will see that as far as possible the fruit growers will be protected. Recently I met a deputation of fruit growers who claimed to represent the fruit growers of most parts of the country, Meath, Wexford, Waterford and so on, and there were other representatives on that deputation. I made an arrangement with the jam manufacturers that they should meet and fix prices. I have not had a report of that meeting with the jam manufacturers from the growers. I take it, therefore, that they have fixed the matter themselves and are satisfied with the arrangement.
Did I understand from the Minister that it is not his intention to issue import licences until he is satisfied that all the crop has been purchased?
Mr. Walsh
As far as possible.
Is the Minister aware that the jam manufacturers have reduced their prices from 98/4 to about 74/6.
Mr. Walsh
They agreed to pay 10½d. per lb.
How does that compare with last year?
Mr. Walsh
It is a penny less than last year. The jam manufacturers have given various reasons for that: the sale of jam was slow during the year and they have quantities on hands. Again I might say that this is one of the best seasons we have had for a number of years for soft fruits.
For the Minister's information, a grower in my county, a small farmer, had ten acres of strawberries. This small farmer paid £1,000 in wages. He has ploughed up those ten acres because of the action of the jam manufacturers towards him and his colleagues this year. That is a very serious thing.
Mr. Walsh
I know it is very serious, but this organisation now, speaking on behalf of the fruit growers, were with me and made an arrangement to meet the jam manufacturers. They met and held discussions and, as I said, I have not had any report from the fruit growers' deputation since; so I take it that they made an amicable arrangement with the jam manufacturers.
Deputy Dillon and Deputy Murphy, referring to flax, alleged that I advised people to grow flax. I did not, at any time. A parliamentary question was put down and I stated in reply:—
"I have been informed by the Irish Scutch Millers' and Growers' Association that they have agreed with the Flax Spinners' Association, Belfast, that they (the spinners) will take up to a maximum of 1,250 tons of the 1952 flax crop. Assuming average yields, this tonnage would be equivalent to the produce of approximately 7,000 acres or slightly more than half the acreage under flax in 1951. In the circumstances, any farmer growing flax this year is running the risk that he may not find a market for it and he would be well advised to consider using his land for the growing of crops for which there are assured outlets and remunerative prices."
That was the answer I gave, and I mention it in order to correct the misstatement of those Deputies that I encouraged farmers to produce flax.
I said the Minister's predecessor.
Mr. Walsh
The Deputy mentioned the Minister, if my recollection is right.
Your recollection is wrong. I said you encouraged people to make farmers' butter, not to grow flax. It was your benighted predecessor.
Mr. Walsh
On the question of hides, that is more a matter for the Department of Industry and Commerce than for me.
It was not, when I was Minister.
Mr. Walsh
The Deputy made a poor job of it.
No, indeed. I got half a crown for export hides and trebled the price for the others.
Mr. Walsh
There is a surplus.
What about that? Were they not made into leather here at home? But when will they get paid for them?
Mr. Walsh
There was an arrangement made to liquidate that debt, and I think the Deputy has already been informed about it.
But it is very slow, it it not?
Mr. Walsh
I agree it is very slow, but the money is being paid and there will be compensation in full.
Would the Minister consider releasing hides from control altogether?
Mr. Walsh
There is no control at the moment.
There is. I do not want to be cross with the Minister. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has fixed a price for hides and their export is not permitted except by licence from him.
Mr. Walsh
That is export under licence.
And the price is controlled by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I am suggesting to the Minister for Agriculture that he should tell the Minister for Industry and Commerce that the time has come to take control off and provide a free market for hides.
Mr. Walsh
As the Deputy knows, the price of hides has now gone very low.
But not as low as the price fixed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. Would the Minister look into that and try to get the control taken off?
A sufficient number of hides must be kept at home.
We have a huge surplus. The Deputy does not know what he is talking about.
Mr. Walsh
Deputy Allen talked about pedigree seed wheat. I am considering introducing a scheme.
What about the scheme that was there?
Mr. Walsh
It was a Fianna Fáil scheme and as it was "a damned bad scheme" it was discontinued. One is at present under consideration for the propagation of pedigree seed oats. Arrangements have already been made for pure line seed barley.
When do you hope to bring it in?
Mr. Walsh
The experts have been over here from the European Economic Co-operation Organisation and have been discussing the matter. We will be going into it soon.
We had a grand scheme with three divisions under Dr. Brady to prepare seed, cereals, grasses and roots. What has become of that?
Mr. Walsh
It will probably come along now. It is under consideration. Deputy Lehane was very critical about the pigs and bacon agreement and for some reason or other he could not understand what arrangements have been made. No matter what I say to him, he still believes there is a catch in this agreement, that the shippers of live pigs are in some way contributing by way of levy towards a fund to bolster up the price of bacon. That is wrong. As Deputy Dillon knows, this agreement must be taken in toto, the export of live pigs, the export of bacon and the export of pork. At the moment we are exporting pork; it suits the British better to import pork and it helps us. We were inclined to send any of our animals out dead.
At the moment no one can sell pigs. They are practically off the market.
Mr. Walsh
I would be glad if the Deputy would let us know where that is happening.
Clover Meats are not able to take them at the moment.
Mr. Walsh
Clover Meats are already exporting pork. They have sent out a consignment of chilled pork and we are hoping to extend that. As Deputy Lehane is not here, I am not going to pursue it very far now.
Do. We are all interested. There is plenty of time, as we will be sitting until midnight. Is the thing working out well?
Mr. Walsh
We have very little experience yet because we have only a very small quantity of pork or bacon to export and until such time as we have more we cannot tell how well it is working. I hope it does work well. If it enables us to pay 250/- to pig producers here I believe it will work and we will be able to develop the production of bacon.
I quite agree — and possibly the fresh pork export will make it possible to pay up to 250/-?
Mr. Walsh
Yes.
That is admirable. Who made the agreement?
Mr. Walsh
Deputy Dillon made the agreement. It has been changed to some slight extent since, because the price has been increased.
Has that not been done under the escalator clause in the 1948 Trade Agreement relating the price of pork here to the price of pork in Great Britain?
Mr. Walsh
It has, but a little more.
Fiat justitia, ruat coelum.
Mr. Walsh
Deputy Keane spoke about the wheat midge and alleged that D.D.T. was ineffective and that the midge was still there. There have been suggestions made by him that the sprays had a damaging effect on the parasite responsible for the killing of the midge. There is no evidence at the moment to substantiate that charge. Of course, I might say that the midge is not new to the country.
The midge has been operating since 1842.
Mr. Walsh
That is what I say, but for one reason or another it seemed to do much more damage last year than for many years past. This has raised the question, I suppose, in the minds of Deputy Keane and others like him, that there must be some reason for this new development.
What does the damage really amount to, in the Minister's reckoning?
Mr. Walsh
It varies. The Deputy knows it has varied in the past.
Has it been a grave matter?
Mr. Walsh
In some parts of the country, yes, there is no doubt about it, but we have no evidence at the moment to substantiate the charge that any of the sprays being used have a damaging effect on the parasite responsible for the killing of the midge.
It must. Is not the parasite a wasp?
Mr. Walsh
No, I do not think so.
I thought the parasite on the midge was a variety of wasp.
Mr. Walsh
Yes. This was a charge that was made by some of the Deputies——
If the parasite is a wasp, surely it must suffer from contact with D.D.T.?
Mr. Walsh
We have no evidence.
The midge suffers worse.
Look at that pleasant creature sitting behind you. Do not be so sure of that. There is a snag in that.
Mr. Walsh
We have been assured that the spray is effective. From my own personal knowledge, I know that it will minimise losses if there are losses in wheat production.
Is it not lucky that I am not Minister for Agriculture or there would be meetings at every crossroads calling on the Minister for Agriculture to know what he was going to do about the wheat midge?
Mr. Walsh
We had them last year. I have some recollection that Deputy Dillon joined in at that particular time.
I certainly did not.
Mr. Walsh
Deputy O'Donnell and, I think, Deputy Dillon were interested in the development of tomato growing.
Well you may laugh.
Mr. Walsh
I thought he was.
That is the Minister for External Affairs' brain child.
Mr. Walsh
I was asked the question by Deputy O'Donnell if it was our intention to extend that scheme, and my reply to that is that it is in the experimental stage still.
It is a hoary old experiment.
Mr. Walsh
We experimented in Donegal last year and we have put in heaters there. The experiment has been continued and when we have decided on our policy we will make it known. Of course, there was a remarkable increase in the earnings per house last year as compared with 1948 and 1949.
Was there? Not according to the figures you gave me.
Mr. Walsh
Yes, and it is estimated that in this year there will be a further increase. We are hoping to go to £100 in Connemara and up to £48 in Donegal. I have a distinct recollection of coming across figures some time or other for 1948 and 1949, when the earnings from the glasshouses were very, very low.
You gave them to me.
Mr. Walsh
The Deputy need not bother rooting for papers. It is a fact.
Have you not got them there?
Mr. Walsh
I have not. I have a distinct knowledge of it. I quoted it so often and so effectively that it is impressed on my mind.
You are praying to God I will not find them.
Mr. Walsh
I want to finish with the questions that have been put to me by Deputies. The only question remaining, I think, was a question raised by Deputy Dillon regarding an offer of sulphate of ammonia.
Yes. I will be glad to hear the Minister on that.
Mr. Walsh
The Deputy was kind enough to give me the names of the persons who spoke on that occasion. I am having the matter investigated and if there is any truth in the statement I will let the Deputy know.
Was it not a queer transaction?
Mr. Walsh
A very queer transaction, I admit, but at the moment I am unable to say whether there is any foundation for the statements made or not but once I get the correct version of the conversations that took place I will have it conveyed to the Deputy.
I think I have covered most of the points that have been brought up in the debate. There is a motion by Deputy Dillon that the Estimate be referred back. I have explained the reason. We had a fundamental disagreement. That is the only reason. After hearing the explanation I have given, I think Deputy Dillon should permit my Estimate to go through.
Question put: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."
The Committee divided: Tá 55; Níl, 66.
Tá
- Beirne, John.
- Belton, John.
- Blowick, Joseph.
- Browne, Patrick.
- Byrne, Alfred.
- Cafferky, Dominick.
- Carew, John.
- Cawley, Patrick.
- Coburn, James.
- Collins, Seán.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Costello, Declan.
- Costello, John A.
- Crotty, Patrick J.
- Davin, William.
- Desmond, Daniel.
- Dillon, James M.
- Dockrell, Henry P.
- Dockrell, Maurice E.
- Donnellan, Michael.
- Doyle, Peadar S.
- Esmonde, Anthony C.
- Fagan, Charles.
- Finan, John.
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Giles, Patrick.
- Hession, James M.
- Hughes, Joseph.
- Keyes, Michael.
- Lynch, John (North Kerry)
- McAuliffe, Patrick.
- MacBride, Seán.
- McGilligan, Patrick.
- McMenamin, Daniel.
- Madden, David J.
- Mannion John.
- Morrissey, Daniel.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, Michael P.
- Murphy, William.
- O'Donnell, Patrick.
- O'Gorman, Patrick J.
- O'Hara, Thomas.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
- O'Reilly, Patrick.
- O'Sullivan, Denis.
- Palmer, Patrick W.
- Reynolds, Mary.
- Roddy, Joseph.
- Rogers, Patrick J.
- Rooney, Eamon.
- Sweetman, Gerard.
- Tully, John.
Níl
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Beegan, Patrick.
- Blaney, Neil T.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Browne, Noel C.
- Buckley, Seán.
- Burke, Patrick.
- Butler, Bernard.
- Calleary, Phelim A.
- Carter, Frank.
- Childers, Erskine.
- Cogan, Patrick.
- Colley, Harry.
- Collins, James J.
- Corry, Martin J.
- Cowan, Peadar.
- Crowley, Honor Mary.
- Crowley, Tadhg.
- Cunningham, Liam.
- Davern, Michael J.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- de Valera, Eamon.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Duignan, Peadar.
- ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
- Flanagan, Seán.
- Flynn, John.
- Flynn, Stephen.
- Gilbride, Eugene.
- Harris, Thomas.
- Brady, Philip A.
- Brady, Seán.
- Breen, Dan.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Brennan, Thomas.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Hillery, Patrick J.
- Hilliard, Michael.
- Humphreys, Francis.
- Kenneally, William.
- Kennedy, Michael J.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Lemass, Seán.
- Little, Patrick J.
- Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
- McCann, John.
- MacCarthy, Seán.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- McGrath, Patrick.
- Maher, Peadar.
- Moylan, Seán.
- Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- Ormonde, John.
- Rice, Bridget M.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Mary B.
- Sheldon, William A.W.
- Sheridan, Michael.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Traynor, Oscar.
- Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Doyle and Keyes; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea.
Question declared lost.
There is a second motion in the name of Deputy Dillon.
We will not divide on this.
Question put and declared lost.
Vote put and agreed to.