Amendments Nos. 3 and 4 will be discussed here.
Committee on Finance. - Financial Resolution No. 2. Excise Duties on Mechanically Propelled Vehicles.
Debate resumed on the following amendment:—
Before paragraph (h) to insert a new paragraph as follows:—
(h) notwithstanding anything contained in this Resolution, all the owners of mechanically propelled vehicles which are used solely or mainly as taxis or hackney cars plying for public service shall be entitled to a rebate of 25 per cent. on the rates of duty provided in the Schedule to this Resolution.—(Deputy MacBride.)
I think that the case has already been effectively made that quite apart from the general hardship which this additional taxation will impose on different sections of the community, it will impose a very special penalty on hackney owners and drivers who render useful service to the community. These people depend upon the use of cars for their livelihood; they are small people who have been finding it increasingly difficult to make ends meet in recent years. The proposals contained in my amendment provide for a reduction of 25 per cent. in their tax. I thought that that might be a simpler way of achieving the result which I think many members of the House felt should be achieved. It would be easier for local authorities in calculating the amount of road tax in respect of hackney cars and taxis to be able to reduce the full amount by 25 per cent. than to go back and find out what the tax would have been were it not for this Financial Resolution. That is the point of view which I adopted. The amendment provides for a rebate of 25 per cent. in the case of every mechanically propelled vehicle which is used solely or mainly as a taxi or hackney car plying for public service. I would urge the House to adopt the amendment. I do not think that its cost would be very significant from the Minister's point of view and it would relieve an additional burden from a section of the community which is already hard pressed. I hope that the Minister will consider the amendment in a reasonable frame of mind and that he may find it possible to accept it. By doing so he would meet the wishes of the House as a whole as a great many members on his side share our views on this matter. I hope therefore that he will be able to indicate that he is in a position to accept it.
Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 58; Níl, 69.
Tá
- Belton, John.
- Blowick, Joseph.
- Browne, Patrick.
- Byrne, Alfred.
- Carew, John.
- Coburn, James.
- Collins, Seán.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Costello, Declan.
- Costello, John A.
- Crotty, Patrick J.
- Crowe, Patrick.
- Desmond, Daniel.
- Dillon, James M.
- Dockrell, Henry P.
- Dockrell, Maurice E.
- Donnellan, Michael.
- Doyle, Peadar S.
- Dunne, Seán.
- Esmonde, Anthony C.
- Everett, James.
- Fagan, Charles.
- Finan, John.
- Finucane, Patrick.
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Giles, Patrick.
- Hession, James M.
- Hickey, James.
- Hughes, Joseph.
- Keane, Seán.
- Keyes, Michael.
- Kyne, Thomas A.
- Larkin, James
- Lynch, John (North Kerry).
- MacBride, Seán.
- McMenamin, Daniel.
- Madden, David J.
- Mannion, John.
- Morrissey, Daniel.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, Michael P.
- Murphy, William.
- Norton, William.
- O'Gorman, Patrick J.
- O'Hara, Thomas.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
- O'Reilly, Patrick.
- O'Sullivan, Denis.
- Palmer, Patrick W.
- Reidy, James.
- Reynolds, Mary.
- Roddy, Joseph.
- Rooney, Eamon.
- Spring, Dan.
- Sweetman, Gerard.
- Tully, John.
Níl
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Beegan, Patrick.
- Blaney, Neil T.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Brady, Philip A.
- Brady, Seán.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Brennan, Thomas.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Browne, Noel C.
- Buckley, Seán.
- Burke, Patrick.
- Butler, Bernard.
- Calleary, Phelim A.
- Carter, Frank.
- Childers, Erskine.
- Cogan, Patrick.
- Colley, Harry.
- Collins, James J.
- Corry, Martin J.
- Cowan, Peadar.
- Crowley, Honor Mary.
- Crowley, Tadhg.
- Cunningham, Liam.
- Davern, Michael J.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Duignan, Peadar.
- Fanning, John.
- ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
- Flanagan, Seán.
- Flynn, John.
- Flynn, Stephen.
- Gallagher, Colm.
- Gilbride, Eugene.
- Harris, Thomas.
- Hillery, Patrick J.
- Hilliard, Michael.
- Humphreys, Francis.
- Kenneally, William.
- Kennedy, Michael J.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Lemass, Seán.
- Little, Patrick J.
- Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
- McCann, John.
- MacCarthy, Seán.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- McGrath, Patrick.
- Maguire, Patrick J.
- Maher, Peadar.
- Moylan, Seán.
- Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- Ormonde, John.
- O'Sullivan, Ted.
- Rice, Bridget M.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Mary B.
- Sheldon, William A. W.
- Sheridan, Michael.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Traynor, Oscar.
- Walsh, Laurence J.
- Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Byrne and Tully; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea.
Amendment declared negatived.
I take it that that decision will cover amendment No. 4. Amendments Nos. 3 and 4 were discussed together.
Amendment No. 4 not moved.
I move amendment No. 5:—
Before paragraph (h) to insert a new paragraph as follows:—
(h) notwithstanding anything contained in this Resolution all owners of mechanically propelled vehicles which are used as agricultural lorries shall not be subject to the increased rates of duty set out in the Resolution.
The purpose of this amendment is to seek a measure of relief for agricultural lorry owners. At the present time, the owner of an agricultural lorry not exceeding two tons is required to pay £25 per annum. Under the new proposals, the owner of an agricultural lorry will be required to pay not less than £46 per annum and probably much more. I have already spoken regarding this matter in the course of the debate and consequently I do not intend to enlarge on it now. I want to hear whether the Minister is prepared to accept this amendment. Proportionately speaking in relation to the lighter vehicles, this impost upon the users of agricultural lorries is heavier than the impost on the other sections of the community who are using light vehicles.
I should like to have heard from the Deputy who moved this amendment some cases of which he has experience in which this proposal would inflict a hardship on any farmer. I looked at the figures. They show that there are 747 such vehicles in the country. I looked around to ascertain the way they were distributed. I thought that many of them might have been used for the haulage of milk to creameries and I expected to find the largest number of such vehicles registered in the milk-producing areas. To my surprise, however, that was not the case.
Of the 747 vehicles classed as agricultural vehicles, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 310 or 320 were registered in Dublin, about 100 in County Meath and a fairly large number in Westmeath. In fact, the great majority of these vehicles were registered within a few counties. In the areas in which I expected to find that such vehicles would have been taxed, such as Limerick, the number was as low as three or four. I came to the conclusion that these were not, in fact, agricultural vehicles in the sense of being owned and operated by people who were engaged solely in agriculture. I came to the conclusion there was no good reason why they should have a special rate of tax. I know a few of these vehicles myself; I know people who own them, and I think it would be completely inaccurate to suggest that they were vehicles entitled to a special rate of duty from the point of view of being owned and operated by those who were solely concerned with the pursuit of agriculture as a livelihood. For that reason, I decided this concession, which to my mind was abused, should be withdrawn and that these vehicles should pay the same rate of duty as other vehicles, having regard to their capacity.
Could the Minister tell the House, or has he any information as to what these vehicles are primarily used for? Are they used by market gardeners or for bringing liquid milk to the city?
To tell you the truth, I had some difficulty in discovering what they were used for. A number of them were used to my own knowledge for purposes that certainly would not qualify them for exceptional treatment on the grounds that they were used for agricultural purposes.
Did the Minister in his investigations find that quite a number of them were used for conveying vegetables and garden produce to the markets in Dublin?
I did not, in fact.
I know that in Rush alone, an area in which the holdings are practically all small, there are over 100 agricultural lorries taxed. I think the Minister's statistics will show that these lorries are used for the purpose of bringing vegetables and farm produce to the city. They are not used for the haulage of ordinary commodities. Many of them are used as milk lorries by farmers carrying their own goods. If there are 300 such agricultural lorries in this county, he knows himself the heavy burden that will be imposed on the owners of these lorries which are bringing quite a large proportion of the food supplies of the city to the market.
I put this to the Minister. The number of these licences is relatively small. I suggest that the concession is availed of by a limited portion of the agricultural industry. I think the figures the Minister himself has given would suggest to the House that this concession is mainly of value to two categories of persons in the agricultural industry—the market gardener and the purveyor of liquid milk to the city consumer. I always understood that it was the desire of every Party in this House to sustain the farmer who was working for himself.
If there is any category of farmers in Ireland who are manifestly operating on very small acreages, who by intensive cultivation are working for themselves, and who are notoriously amongst the most industrious residents on the land of this country, it is the North County Dublin market gardeners. Market gardening is one of the most highly-skilled branches of agriculture. It is one of the branches of agriculture which require a degree of personal attention and hard work which must often baffle those who are not accustomed to the kind of life these people in North County Dublin have worked out for themselves.
I think this must be borne in mind. This industry, I do not think, has ever produced millionaires on the north coast of County Dublin. These market gardeners are all small men. Does this House advert to the fact that by altering the taxation on their lorries, Dáil Éireann does to these men one of two things? We levy upon them for evermore a tax of 10/- per week or we say to them: "Having shaken yourself from the obligation of starting out at midnight with horse and cart, as your father and your grandfather did, to walk into the Dublin market, we now require you to go back to the practice of walking the roads of County Dublin," as we saw them do 20 or 25 years ago, with horse and cart, from midnight until 5 or 6 o'clock in the morning, in order to reach the Dublin market. Do we in this House for the sake of the revenue it may involve, consider it equitable to go to a limited number of market gardeners in North County Dublin and tell them: "Either you will pay hereafter in perpetuity a heavier tax than Dáil Éireann proposes to levy on any other body of people in Ireland in your circumstances, or you will go back to the kind of life your father or grandfather had perforce to live in order to exist at all"?
How often must I draw the attention of the House to the fact that the doctrine that you cannot make omelettes without breaking eggs is all very well, provided you are not the egg? I do not think that if this matter was reviewed calmly in this House there are six Deputies here who would deliberately vote to put a tax of 10/- per week on a body of small farmers of this kind, with the alternative that they can avoid this tax by giving up the practice of leaving home an hour before the market, as they now can by the use of motor transport, or of reconciling themselves to walking all night, with one of the family taking his turn as night walker for a week or a fortnight until some other member of the family relieves him of that chore. Is there any Deputy who thinks that it is desirable to force back on people who have escaped from it that mode of life again?
We pass legislation here to prohibit night baking. to provide compulsory half-holidays for agricultural workers, to compel shops to close at a certain hour lest the employees in them should be required to work unduly long hours but, quite casually, we say to a small body of men who are rearing families on small holdings, "in your case we are not going to legislate to prevent you working long hours; we are going to give you this attractive alternative of working all night or of paying 10/- a week for the rest of your days to escape it". If that were done in the old days by the British House of Commons, I think that the story of such an iniquity perpetrated against our people would have gone round the world; but here we do it casually, without thinking or caring what we are doing.
The market gardeners in North County Dublin are never going to bring much grist to my political mill. I am not even acquainted with a single one of them, but I thought that I shared with the present Minister for Local Government at least some solicitude for the agricultural community, whether they were our neighbours or whether or not they belonged to another branch of agriculture in another part of the country. I expected that the present Minister for Local Government would react prima facie at least in favour of those people, and that he would insist on a very strong case being made to him for withdrawing this concession from a section of the agricultural community before he would bring in a proposal of this kind to the House.
I do not know who owns the agricultural lorries which are not operated by the market gardeners. I presume a considerable number of them are used by milk farmers around the County and City of Dublin to carry the milk into wholesalers, though I am aware that a great many wholesalers go out and collect the milk themselves. I think that the Minister might with perfect propriety have told us, in so far as he had been informed, what he believed the bulk of the lorries were being used for.
I should like to put this point to Deputy Burke who represents North County Dublin. He usually talks here like a roaring lion on anything that transpires in any part of the country. I feel like asking to have the bells rung to bring him in. But Deputy Burke knows North County Dublin, although he is a Mayo man himself. He is a charitable kind of man, and I want to ask him, does he think that the neighbours amongst whom he is now living should, in their circumstances, be presented by this House with the alternative of paying 10/- a week or of walking the roads of County Dublin from 12 o'clock at night until 5 o'clock the following morning every day of the week? Surely, the Minister will agree with me that a case has been made which requires consideration. I should like the Minister to tell us—he is a small farmer himself and understands the circumstances of small farmers and how hard it is on market gardeners who live on small holdings—how he reconciles it with his conscience to ask this House to do what he admits he is now doing, and that is to withdraw from those people a concession which they have enjoyed for a long number of years. I think there is a case there to be met by the Minister.
In giving my support to this amendment I want to say that it was only during the period in office of the inter-Party Government that I came to know exactly how a number of small farmers in the north part of County Dublin live. These small farmers consider themselves well off if they have five acres of land, and by sheer hard work and thirft they are able to make a living for themselves. I would imagine that they own the greater number of the lorries to which the Minister has referred. Perhaps five or ten of the 380 lorries referred to may be owned by milk vendors. I want to tell the House that, in my experience, these people have been asking the Department of Lands to increase the amount of land they hold so as to enable them to increase their output. During the last 15 or 20 years they have got rid of their horses. The crops which they would require to produce to feed their horses are now being made available for human consumption for the benefit of the people of this city. The Minister may not be aware that, under this proposal, he is hitting at the most thrifty and hardworking section of the farming community in this country. That is what the rejection of Deputy Rooney's amendment will mean.
I merely want to say that before I made this decision I went into this question as fully as it was possible for me to go. I think Deputy Dillon was right in accusing me of the likelihood of taking, in relation to the agricultural industry and those engaged in it, a fairly lenient view if I were satisfied that the concession was not being abused. I approached the matter in that frame of mind, and decided that this concession was being abused. It is all right to talk about the market gardener as if he were the only type of person likely to take advantage of this concession. Any man engaged in any business in any part of the country, who was the owner of a piece of land could, and in fact, did take advantage of this particular concession.
I happened to meet a man, a businessman, after the publication of the White Paper. He said to me: "Does that mean so-and-so?""It certainly does," I said. I asked him: "Are you one of those people who took advantage of it?" He laughed and said: "Yes, I have been enjoying the concession for 25 years." I said to him: "Well, it is going to end now as far as I am concerned.""Ah, well," he said, "I cannot complain; I have had a fairly good spell." I have a fair suspicion that the number or percentage of the 800 odd people who took advantage of that concession were people of that class. You start off and you make these concessions. The only result is, there may be cases where one would like to let it stand if one could be sure that it would not be abused. When one comes to consider the small amount of difference it will make to the market gardener, it would clearly not be worth the risk. The rate of duty on the type of vehicle used by the market gardener—that is, the two-ton truck—was £25; henceforth it will start at £30 with an increase of £4 per quarter.
And for the man with the truck over two tons what will it be?
I have not got that figure. I do not know whether I use the eyes I have, whether I see the sort of vehicles I think I do or whether I understand the types of vehicles that are being used but I think I make as good use of my eyes as most people. I do not believe that what I am proposing here will have the results Deputy Dillon anticipates when he talks about what our grandfathers and their grandfathers before them did driving along the roads at night bringing produce to the city in horses and carts.
What number of the 700 lorries so registered would the Minister estimate are abusing the regulations?
I am not prepared to give any estimate or to cite the names of firms I know that have taken advantages of this concession, a concession to which they were not entitled.
Would the Minister not give us an idea of what he considers is the percentage of the 700 lorries that is improperly used?
I could not go around and see who owned these lorries. I took a look at the places where they were licensed. I have a fair idea of the type of agricultural production in these areas and a fair idea of the nature of that production in addition to a number of cases in which I had personal information. I came to the conclusion that these vehicles are being used in the main by a certain section of the community and, in my view, that section is not entitled to describe itself as agricultural in the sense in which it was intended the concession should apply.
Would the Minister meet us to this extent: where he knows that abuse has crept in would he retain the concession where the owner of the vehicle can bona fide satisfy the Department that he is bona fide entitled to the concession?
I am asked to make all these stipulations. If the hardship were to be extreme and if the additional tax were to mean real hardship in any particular case, then I might be urged along these lines. There is nothing in these proposals that will inflict any hardship sufficient to warrant my making any reservations. In every case in which reservations are made abuses are bound to creep in. In addition to that we have aimed at securing a certain sum of money and everything adds up.
I have endeavoured to assure the House and Deputy Dillon, who has expressed the view quite correctly that I should, even as Minister for Local Government, have some regard to my background and to the knowledge that I have of the people who are engaged in agriculture whether as market gardeners in Rush, County Dublin, or milk producers in Limerick. It was exactly that I had before my mind when I came to examine this matter, and I concluded that for the little hardship it would mean to a very small number and the little additional cost it would impose it would not be fair or right that such a wide range of interests should get away with this special concession. I must ask the House to accept the genuineness of my approach and to say that I could not accede to the suggestion made by Deputy Collins to amend the proposal in the manner indicated.
In that part of the Resolution dealing with agricultural tractors the tractor owner who now has to pay £8 tax and who hitherto has been paying £6 must satisfy the authorities that he is living solely on agriculture. Could the Minister not adopt that principle here and make it applicable to the market gardeners and the small farmers for whom the lorry is an essential part of their livelihood? That method would cut out any abuse.
That method is not part of this code and the Deputy is aware that that method has created a good deal of confusion in the courts and everywhere else.
All I am asking the Minister to do is to adopt the same wording as appears in Resolution No. 2 dealing with the £6 tractor, because before the £6 will be accepted the owner must satisfy the authorities that he is living solely on and from agriculture and that any increase would inflict grave hardship on a very deserving class.
The lorry is not in the true sense of the word an indispensable part of the man's living because the fact is that he can live and did live on the horse and cart basis. I think it is very wrong of Oireachtas Éireann deliberately to shove people who are getting their living out of the land down to a lower standard of living from which they, by their own exertions, have escaped in this generation. Surely it is a good thing and something of which we should be glad that the market gardeners supplying the City of Dublin can now live a relatively normal life, get up at 6 o'clock in the morning, and have their produce in the market without the necessity of these nocturnal pilgrimages which most of us who lived near Dublin were familiar with in the past. If one was coming into Dublin at 1 o'clock or 2 o'clock in the morning, one would meet these men plodding into Dublin with their horses and carts. Surely it is a cause for rejoicing that they have escaped from that.
The effect of these proposals will not be to condemn these men to get out of business. They will not get out of business. They will go back to the horse and cart. They will have to, because they will starve if they do not do so.
They cannot afford to keep a horse now.
They will have to do as best they can. I suggest to the Minister that this is a very harsh thing for the House to do. They are small men. Their kind of life is probably not familiar to many Deputies here. Surely the proposal made by Deputy Blowick meets the very objection the Minister appears to have, of the danger of abuses of this concession. I did not gather from what he said originally that there were people all over the country abusing the concession. I understood he got his impression from a study of the localities in which these special £25 licences are used, to wit, Dublin, Meath, Westmeath and, I think, Wicklow. I do not think he can give us any convincing information as to the nature of the abuses he believes existed.
We are making a case which he is not in a position to counter in respect of the market gardener. I am afraid he will have recourse to the argument that one cannot have omelettes without breaking eggs. I hold it is not right to do this. Each one of these men has struggled from the position of having to compel one of his family to walk the roads at night in order to move into the position in which he can live normally like the rest of us. By our action here we now propose to force him back again. I think that is very wrong. It is the kind of injustice every Parliament is prone to do simply because it is powerful. We can avoid doing this injustice. If we do not avoid it, it is because we are too lazy to face it and to leave the purpose of the Minister's Resolution substantially untouched while inserting in it a saver which would protect a very small group of persons from what will be a very real hardship for them.
Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 60; Níl, 69.
Tá.
- Belton, John.
- Blowick, Joseph.
- Browne, Patrick.
- Byrne, Alfred.
- Carew, John.
- Coburn, James.
- Collins, Seán.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Costello, Declan.
- Esmonde, Anthony C.
- Everett, James.
- Fagan, Charles.
- Finan, John.
- Finucane, Patrick.
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Giles, Patrick.
- Hession, James M.
- Hickey, James.
- Hughes, Joseph.
- Keane, Seán.
- Keyes, Michael.
- Kyne, Thomas A.
- Larkin, James.
- Lynch, John (North Kerry).
- MacBride, Seán.
- MacEoin, Seán.
- McGilligan, Patrick.
- McMenamin, Daniel.
- Madden, David J.
- Costello, John A.
- Crotty, Patrick J.
- Crowe, Patrick.
- Desmond, Daniel.
- Dillon, James M.
- Dockrell, Henry P.
- Dockrell, Maurice E.
- Donnellan, Michael.
- Doyle, Peadar S.
- Dunne, Seán.
- Mannion, John.
- Morrissey, Daniel.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, Michael P.
- Murphy, William.
- Norton, William.
- O'Gorman, Patrick J.
- O'Hara, Thomas.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
- O'Reilly, Patrick.
- O'Sullivan, Denis.
- Palmer, Patrick W.
- Reidy, James.
- Reynolds, Mary.
- Roddy, Joseph.
- Rooney, Eamon.
- Spring, Dan.
- Sweetman, Gerard.
- Tully, John.
Níl.
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Beegan, Patrick.
- Blaney, Neil T.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Brady, Philip A.
- Brady, Sean.
- Breathnach, Cormac.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Brennan, Thomas.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Browne, Noel C.
- Buckley, Seán.
- Burke, Patrick.
- Butler, Bernard.
- Calleary, Phelim A.
- Carter, Frank.
- Childers, Erskine.
- Cogan, Patrick.
- Colley, Harry.
- Collins, James J.
- Corry, Martin J.
- Cowan, Peadar.
- Crowley, Honor Mary.
- Crowley, Tadhg.
- Cunningham, Liam.
- Davern, Michael J.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Duignan, Peadar.
- Fanning, John.
- ffrench-O'Carrol, Michael.
- Flanagan, Seán.
- Flynn, John.
- Flynn, Stephen.
- Gallagher, Colm.
- Gilbride, Eugene.
- Harris, Thomas.
- Hillery, Patrick J.
- Hilliard, Michael.
- Humphreys, Francis.
- Kenneally, William.
- Kennedy, Michael J.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Lemass, Seán.
- Little, Patrick J.
- Lynch, Jack (Cork Borcugh).
- McCann, John.
- MacCarthy, Seán.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- McGrath, Patrick.
- Maguire, Patrick J.
- Maher, Peadar.
- Moylan, Seán.
- Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- Ormonde, John.
- O'Sullivan, Ted.
- Rice, Bridget M.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Mary B.
- Sheridan, Michael.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Traynor, Oscar.
- Walsh, Laurence J.
- Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies P. S. Doyle and Rooney; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea.
Amendment declared negatived.
Financial Resolution No. 2 put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 69; Níl. 60.
Tá.
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Beegan, Patrick.
- Breathnach, Cormac.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Brennan, Thomas.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Browne, Noel C.
- Buckley, Seán.
- Burke, Patrick.
- Butler, Bernard.
- Calleary, Phelim A.
- Carter, Frank.
- Childers, Erskine.
- Cogan, Patrick.
- Colley, Harry.
- Collins, James J.
- Corry, Martin J.
- Cowan, Peadar.
- Crowley, Honor Mary.
- Crowley, Tadhg.
- Cunningham, Liam.
- Davern, Michael J.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Duignan, Peadar.
- Fanning, John.
- ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
- Flanagan, Seán.
- Flynn, John.
- Flynn, Stephen.
- Gallagher, Colm.
- Gilbride, Eugene.
- Blaney, Neil T.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Brady, Philip A.
- Brady, Seán.
- Harris, Thomas.
- Hillery, Patrick J.
- Hilliard, Michael.
- Humphreys, Francis.
- Kenneally, William.
- Kennedy, Michael J.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Lemass, Seán.
- Little, Patrick J.
- Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
- McCann, John.
- MacCarthy, Seán.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- McGrath, Patrick.
- Maguire, Patrick J.
- Maher, Peadar.
- Moylan, Seán.
- Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- Ormonde, John.
- O'Sullivan, Ted.
- Rice, Bridget M.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Mary B.
- Sheridan, Michael.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Traynor, Oscar.
- Walsh, Laurence J.
- Walsh, Thomas.
Níl.
- Belton, John.
- Blowick, Joseph.
- Browne, Patrick.
- Byrne, Alfred.
- Carew, John.
- Coburn, James.
- Collins, Seán.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Costello, Declan.
- Costello, John A.
- Crotty, Patrick J.
- Crowe, Patrick.
- Desmond, Daniel.
- Dillon, James M.
- Dockrell, Henry P.
- Dockrell, Maurice E.
- Donnellan, Michael.
- Doyle, Peadar S.
- Dunne, Seán.
- Esmonde, Anthony C.
- Everett, James.
- Fagan, Charles.
- Finan, John.
- Finucane, Patrick.
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Giles, Patrick.
- Hession, James M.
- Hickey, James.
- Hughes, Joseph.
- Keane, Seán.
- Keyes, Michael.
- Kyne, Thomas A.
- Larkin, James.
- Lynch, John (North Kerry).
- MacBride, Seán.
- MacEoin, Seán.
- McGilligan, Patrick.
- McMenamin, Daniel.
- Madden, David J.
- Mannion, John.
- Morrissey, Daniel.
- Muleahy, Richard.
- Murphy, Michael P.
- Murphy, William.
- Norton, William.
- O'Gorman, Patrick J.
- O'Hara, Thomas.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
- O'Reilly, Patrick.
- O'Sullivan, Denis.
- Palmer, Patrick W.
- Reidy, James.
- Reynolds, Mary.
- Roddy, Joseph.
- Rooney, Eamon.
- Spring, Dan.
- Sweetman, Gerard.
- Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Mac Fheórais.
Resolution declared carried.
When is it proposed to take Financial Resolutions Nos. 1 and 2 on Report?
Some other day.
Do I understand that it is proposed to take the Report now?
Would it not be possible to take the Report now and, if any amendments are desired by the Opposition, they could have these on the Bill which will follow?
No, there is no necessity to do that.
I have already put down an amendment to Financial Resolution No. 1 which, I presume, has not been circulated because of the fact that we have not yet had the Report. There is no need to take the Report to-day, Sir, because, as far as Financial Resolution No. 1 is concerned, the tax is already operative and the Minister is collecting it, and so far as Financial Resolution No. 2 is concerned the new rates do not become operative until January next.
I am not suggesting what Deputy Norton seems to accuse me of suggesting. I am merely saying that the Report could be taken now and, when the Bill which will follow these Resolutions is introduced, the amendments that Deputies may have in mind could then be discussed on the Bill which must follow these Resolutions.
If this is to remain a deliberative Assembly, we must get an opportunity of moving amendments that we submit. I have not seen my amendments yet.
The Minister will fix a day within the ten sitting days. Friday of this week?
Why Friday of this week?
As far as I know, you have to.
Why?
There is a time limit.
There is a limit of ten days.
Ten sitting days will give us plenty of time.
I have no objection if I am satisfied that I will be within the time specified. I take it the Opposition will be prepared to have the Resolutions reported within the time specified by the Regulations of the House.
This is the sixth sitting day.
This day week.
It is cutting it very fine.
It leaves you two days next week. It will not be talked for two days.
Since the Opposition do not appear to be co-operative, I will have to be satisfied with it.
If the Minister is going to take that line he will not get it within ten days. He can have it whatever way he likes.
Agreed to take the Resolutions on Report on Wednesday, 12th November.