Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Nov 1952

Vol. 134 No. 10

Financial Resolutions by the Minister for Local Government—Report. - Resolution No. 2.

Amendment No. 4 not moved.

I move amendment No. 5:—

In page 7, Part II of the Schedule, to delete paragraph 3 (a) (ii), lines 23 to 25, and substitute the following:—

(ii) for the haulage of similar goods for other persons whose only or chief occupation is farming and whose valuation does not exceed £50, or

(iii) for the haulage of similar goods for other farmers provided that such goods are not hauled for reward, or

(iv) for the haulage of milk products to and from creameries, or

(v) for the haulage of turf for consumption on a farm or other rural premises.

The amendments to Section 3 (a) of Part II of the Resolution are necessary for the purpose of adapting the motor tax code to modern conditions. The Minister has so far not attempted to do so. He has copied almost word for word the English Roads Act of 1920, which was drafted to meet English conditions in the 1920 period, and he has not seriously tried to consider present-day conditions in Ireland.

In his White Paper the Minister recognises the importance of the tractor. He says, on page 8:—

"These vehicles are tending in many areas to replace the farmer's horse and cart."

That is an incomplete statement. Tractors are also a substitute for labour which is no longer available and an alternative to the drudgery which was part and parcel of the small farmer's life.

The Minister, in Section 3 (a) (ii) and 3 (b), has attempted in a half-hearted manner to deal with this matter. He fails, however, to make available to the numberless small farmers who cannot afford a tractor the cheap and ready transport provided by the tractor and trailer. Under his scheme the rich and well-to-do farmer can bring his turf home from the bog, can bring his calves, etc., to the fair and his milk to the creamery, but the man without a tractor of his own is condemned to the old drudgery and labour.

Section 3 (a) (i) reads as follows:

"Where, apart from this paragraph, sub-paragraph (c) of paragraph 4 of Part I of this Schedule would apply to a vehicle, that sub-paragraph shall not apply to it (and sub-paragraph (d) of that paragraph shall apply to it accordingly) unless the person taking out the licence shows to the satisfaction of the licensing authority either—

(a) that his only or chief occupation is farming and that the vehicle is used only occasionally on public roads and then only—

(i) for the haulage of the produce of his farm and articles required for the farm, including the farmhouse and farm buildings, but excluding the haulage of fuel if being transported as a commodity for sale, or"

This section is probably the most non-moral section ever inserted in any Government document. It is a Government sponsored invitation to the public to evade the law. The Minister knows and every Deputy in the House knows that the haulage contemplated in the section will not and in practice cannot be done without reward. The reward may not always be cash, it may be in work or it may be in kind but to suggest that a man with a tractor should at his own expense bring home his neighbour's turf from the bog for nothing is nonsense. There is an old saying in the country that money makes the mare go.

This evasion of an unjust law may be all right until some unfortunate farmer is caught. I can well picture a half-dozen Cavan farmers up at the local District Court. What will their position be? They and each of them will have the choice of seeing their friend the tractor owner fined £100 plus other penalties or go into the witness box and take a false oath. They might even be fined themselves for aiding and abetting. I do not believe that Satan could have designed a more inviting road to lies and perjury. The Minister talks a lot about the Government's courage in facing financial facts. Will they now face the moral facts for a change?

I am aware that the Minister may say that he cannot accept my amendments as they involve a repeal of a section of the Road Transport Act. That may be so but it does not prevent him introducing such an amendment or undertaking to do so within a limited time and in the interval there is nothing to prevent the Government giving instruction to the Guards not to prosecute such infringements of the Act as may take place until the amending legislation has been passed. The economic side of it should also be stressed. If a man has a tractor and equipment together with a trailer for hire the more use he has of this equipment the cheaper he can do the job. If he has it idle for a great part of the year for the reason that he cannot use his trailer it will mean that he will have to charge all the more for using the other machinery. This is sheer economic waste taking into account the vast number of tractors and trailers in the country. How does the Minister reconcile this position with the demand made to the farmers for increased production?

I do not want to embarrass the Minister in respect of this matter. He is a man who is aware of agricultural conditions in this country. I am not anxious to press this amendment to-day if I can get a guarantee from the Minister that he will bring in some amending Bill in the near future. I can appreciate the difficulties involved in respect of the Road Transport Act and if the Minister will give me the undertaking which I seek I shall be satisfied to leave the matter over for the present.

What I am aiming at is clearly set out in Section 3 of Part II of the Schedule. The section reads as follows:—

"Where, apart from this paragraph, sub-paragraph (c) of paragraph 4 of Part I of this Schedule would apply to a vehicle, that sub-paragraph shall not apply to it (and sub-paragraph (d) of that paragraph shall apply to it accordingly) unless the person taking out the licence shows to the satisfaction of the licensing authority either—

(a) that his only or chief occupation is farming and that the vehicle is used only occasionally on public roads and then only—

(i) for the haulage of the produce of his farm and articles required for the farm, including the farmhouse and farm buildings but excluding the haulage of fuel if being transported as a commodity for sale, or

(ii) for the haulage of similar goods for another farmer, provided that such goods are not hauled for reward, or

(b) that he is a contractor engaged to do agricultural work on a farm and that the vehicle is used on public roads only for the haulage of articles required by him for the purpose of doing that work."

What this amendment seeks to achieve is to make it possible for the individual holding this licence to engage in all forms of haulage and to engage in all forms of haulage for reward. It is not a question of this amendment being any embarrassment to me; this amendment aims at securing something which I could not concede. I know it is always difficult to establish that one farmer is hauling goods for another farmer for reward. I know, too, that the reward can take many forms and that there can be evasion, but I should like any Deputy in this House to tell me of anything, that is not covered by any Act of Parliament, in which there is not evasion of some kind.

I admit that it is not possible for me to provide an instrument here that is incapable of being misinterpreted or misconstrued. The Deputy who has moved the amendment is quite right in saying that I understand the problems that present themselves here. I understood, and I understand, the confusion that has existed in the past and the different interpretations that have been placed on the law in this matter by district justices all over the country but I am here now speaking as Minister for Local Government. I am here urging the House to adopt proposals designed to achieve a certain purpose. They are designed to amend the whole regulations governing the licensing of vehicles of all kinds and designed to bring into the Road Fund moneys that are required for the purposes I have mentioned—for the purpose of making more substantial grants to county councils and other such bodies to help them to achieve a purpose that is highly deserving. It is all very well to suggest that in proposals such as these I should take steps to ensure the amendment of other legislation that would bring these tractors, which were designed and used for agricultural purposes, into open competition with merchandise vehicles and allow them to engage in the haulage of merchandise of all sorts and kinds at a rate of duty that was never intended to cover such activity. I think it is asking me to do too much, asking me to do more than I am in a position to concede.

As I say, my main purpose here is to introduce, and to induce the House to accept, a set of proposals which does not impose too much hardship on any particular class of the tractor or lorryowning sections of the community. These proposals are designed to ask all of them to make a reasonable contribution for the damage they do to the roads such as will enable us without, as I say, imposing undue hardships on anybody, to achieve the purpose that I, as Minister for Local Government, have in mind.

If we are to accept the remarks made by the Minister in his concluding statement, there is no reason in the world why the Minister should not put a tax on every horse-cart in the country or on every car, as these vehicles are called in the South of Ireland. What Deputy O'Reilly has said is perfectly true. The Minister may not be aware of it, but the fact remains that if agriculture and agricultural production is to make any progress in this country, the upkeep of a horse on the average small holding will become a luxury which the small farmer can no longer afford. The tractor under modern conditions is taking the place of the horse. The Minister knows as well as I do that the vast majority of tractors used for farming purposes do not inflict 5/- worth of damage in the year to the roads. The ordinary horse and cart, the iron-shod horse and cart, are doing as much damage and I want to point out to the Minister that he is taking a very dangerous step in this regard. He is, in effect, forcing some farmers to go back to primitive methods. If that is the aim of the Government, they will not achieve it without being told all about it. I stand over this amendment and I am in complete agreement with it. I think the Minister is definitely taking a wrong step in what he is doing in regard to farm tractors. Firstly, he increased the tax without any justification.

And reduced it as well.

You must not have read the Resolution.

Would the Minister enlighten us?

The tax was £6 and £10. Now there is a flat tax of £8.

How many tractors were carrying the £10 tax?

Speak accurately when you are dealing with it.

I am speaking accurately. I know all about it. I have practical experience of what I am speaking about. I am not uttering words that have been put into my mouth by somebody else as the Minister is. I spent long enough behind the wheel of a tractor to know what I am talking about. If the Minister had my experience, he might view this matter in a different light. Whether the Minister likes it or not, the tractor must replace the horse. Some people have regrets over that for sentimental reasons but the march of progress makes it inevitable. The Minister is deliberately clapping a tax on these tractors but he knows in his heart that 99 per cent. of them do not come out on the roads one day in the month. The work they do is confined strictly to the farms. It is the precedent more than the actual amount by which the Minister is increasing the tax to which I object.

I am not stopping them coming out on the roads.

You are putting them off the roads.

I am not stopping them.

No, provided they have plenty of money to pay the tax.

They can still come out on the roads.

What a concession!

They can come out on the roads at the minimum rate of duty. Of course the Deputy has not even given himself the trouble to examine what these proposals are.

I have examined them and I know quite well what they are. I want to tell the Minister further that the 5/- tax which covers the agricultural tractor was quite sufficient to cover the average tractor. I am sure it is within the competence of the Minister's officials to devise some means whereby a man who wanted to evade the tax of £21 under the cloak of the 5/- tax, could be brought to book. I am sure it is quite within the competence of these officials to round up that type of person. Therefore, the excuse that we must blister everybody in order to do that is absurd. I think it is an absolutely daft proposal. The average tractor is used for work within the holding or farm.

On the roads they are used mostly for the haulage of turf in areas where turf is the principal fuel. That is practically confined to Connaught. The horse and car did that without any tax. Will the Minister agree that that is true, or is he trying to bamboozle the House by saying that I have not examined that side of the problem? Take the case of tractors which are hired for tillage purposes by people who cannot afford to have a tractor of their own. These also are being clamped down on and their use discouraged even though we have the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Finance shouting all over the country asking for increased production. At the same time, however, they tax the tools of the agricultural trade. Can the Minister tell me of any case where the tools of any other industry here, or in neighbouring counties, are taxed in the way that he is proposing to tax the tractors?

I repeat that it is no excuse for the Minister to say that he wants to prevent the fellow with the 5/- tax or the £6 tax taking advantage of it to do £21 or £31 worth of work. In order to round up that type of person or prevent him from evading the law, it is not good enough to clamp an increased tax of £8 on every tractor. The 5/- tax is not being availed of by one person out of 20 for the reason that it does not allow him to use a trailer. Suppose a road runs through a man's holding with land on one side of it and his house and out-offices and some more land on the other side. If he is paying a 5/- tax for the tractor he cannot bring an empty trailer attached to it across that road. If he is caught he will be prosecuted and there have been prosecutions in cases of that sort all over the country. The position is that in such cases the Guards must prosecute because that is the law.

Deputy O'Reilly, I think, suggested that the Minister could give an order to the Guards not to prosecute in certain cases. No Minister has the power to do that. The Guards must prosecute according to the law as it is laid down by this House, and no Minister and no Government could give an order to the Guards not to prosecute as long as the law is there. In fact, if the Minister did give such an order, the Guard could tell him to mind his own business. Therefore, Deputies should not be labouring under the delusion that the Minister could do anything of that kind.

I would ask the Minister to wipe out the £6 tax as it stood, and also the £8 tax which is now proposed, and to tax all tractors at a flat rate of £1, and then impose a tax on their use for haulage purposes or for hire or reward. The Minister could put on a tax commensurate with the horse-power of the tractor and the damage it was likely to do to the roads in comparison with lorries. It is just a farce to be talking about increased agricultural production while the Minister for Local Government who a few short years ago was Minister for Agriculture is doing what he is proposing to do under this Resolution. There is no justification for it. Therefore I fully support the different clauses in this amendment.

I support the amendment. There is no point in trying to put forward the argument that the tax on tractors has been reduced from £10 to £8 as against others where the tax has been increased from £6 to £8. In the case of nine-tenths of the tractors, the tax has been increased from £6 to £8, while as regards possibly a tenth of them it is being reduced from £10 to £8. Therefore, the balance against tractor users is in favour of the Minister for Finance, who under this Resolution is proposing to take a substantial sum of money from tractor owners in the form of a tax. Many of these are petrol tractors. Earlier this year the tax on petrol was increased, although a remission in tax for petrol driven tractors was given by the previous Minister for Finance. That remission was not given in respect of the latest increase by the present Minister for Finance. Therefore, the increased tax on petrol is being placed on these tractor owners.

The amendment which, I hope, we are discussing does not cover any of the matters raised by Deputy Blowick or Deputy Rooney.

We have made the point that it is proposed to increase taxation on tractors.

That proposal is not now before the House.

What is before the House is amendment No. 5.

Amendment No. 5 proposes to delete certain lines in Part II of the Schedule and to substitute, amongst others, the following:

"For the haulage of similar goods for other persons whose only or chief occupation is farming and whose valuation does not exceed £50."

The case for the amendment has been ably made by Deputy O'Reilly from Cavan. The Minister who also represents that constituency ought to know the benefit which the acceptance of the amendment would bring to tractor users in Cavan.

I would like to help hauliers not only in Cavan but everywhere else.

The Minister has an opportunity of doing that if he accepts the amendment. As regards this 5/- tax——

There is no mention of a 5/- tax in this amendment.

It was mentioned only a few minutes ago by the previous speaker.

The Minister is quite correct in saying that there is no mention of a 5/- tax in the amendment proposed by Deputy O'Reilly.

The Minister mentioned it when referring to the £8 and the £10 tax.

Only to correct that Deputy as I am now trying to correct you.

These tractors, in many cases, have taken the place of the horse and the cart. They are mounted on rubber tyres and so do far less damage to the ordinary public road than the four iron shoes on the horse and an iron-shod wheel on a cart. Despite that, the tractor is to be heavily taxed to the extent of £8 per annum. There is, in addition, the extra tax on petrol.

May I remind the Deputy again that we are not discussing the price of petrol?

Deputy Rooney should get away from the question of tax. The amendment deals with the granting of exemptions to certain classes.

It is very hard to know what one is allowed to say on this amendment.

The Deputy can say anything he wishes so long as he keeps to the amendment.

In such circumstances it is often safer to say nothing.

This amendment also proposes that exemption should be granted to those who wish to use tractors for the haulage of turf. There are many farmers who hire these tractors to cultivate their land. They have been asked to increase production but they are not being encouraged to do it. In addition to using the tractors for the cultivation of land their owners could use them for the haulage of turf. Previously, under the old system of taxation, they were allowed to use these tractors at a cost of £6 per year. Many of those owners are very small farmers, and it is now proposed to put the tax up to £8.

The Deputy is again going back to a question which has been ruled out of order. We are not debating the question of tax on this amendment.

This amendment asks for an exemption and that is what I am pleading for.

It is hard to know what the Deputy is pleading for.

I will say no more until I hear from the Minister.

I think these amendments are very reasonable as this will be a hardship on the farming community. In the milk-producing areas there is a certain amount of milk being carried to creameries by tractors without any question of reward. A farmer carries milk for his neighbour and there is no reward in these cases. Now, if a farmer pays the £8 tax he will not be allowed to do that. That will be a great hardship on the farming community. There has been an appeal made for increased milk production which is very necessary, and if the Minister puts something like this into force it will be a great hardship. It will increase the cost to the farmer because he will not be able to get his milk carried as he has been getting milk carried. Under the new £8 tax a farmer will be only allowed to carry his own milk.

I want to remove any doubt about this, because there seems to be a misapprehension. If three or four farmers in a district who were using horses and carts in taking turn about in bringing milk to the creamery have now got tractors, or if two farmers out of four or five or six have now got tractors, they will be entitled to continue that practice of taking their neighbours' cans on the day or days they would be supposed to carry the milk by arrangement with their neighbours. There is no impediment being placed in their way in that regard. They will be able to haul their own turf or the turf of their neighbours. The only impediment is that they will not be allowed to engage in commercial haulage. I do not mind these proposals being criticised intelligently on that basis, but I object to their being criticised by people who do not seem to know what is covered by this or what will be achieved as a result of it.

If a farmer wants to carry cattle to a fair, is he precluded from doing that?

Not at all.

Will he be charged an extra tax for doing so?

Not at all.

I understood that a farmer could only haul his own produce.

And that of his neighbour if he is not doing it for reward. In hundreds of cases six or eight or ten farmers agreed to take turn about in carrying milk to the creamery or taking pigs or cattle to the market or turf from the bog. They co-operated with their neighbours. I admit that it would be impossible to be sure that there would not be an exchange of payment of one kind or another. But, short of giving a man paying an £8 tax the right to go out and haul merchandise of all kinds, he is perfectly free to engage in the sort of haulage in which he engaged with a horse and cart or to engage, in co-operation with his neighbours, in the pursuit of agriculture. If he has a tractor, he can engage in the haulage that is necessary to enable him to do his work. There is no reason for all these ambiguities which are being built up about this. They are not real; they are only imaginary.

Is the law not changed from what it was?

It is not changed in any respect except to the extent that there seems to be some doubt, that the courts were in doubt. Take the case of a tractor which was engaged commercially in hauling milk. The owner of that tractor who was so engaged every day on the roads just the same as his neighbour who was using a lorry, would not be allowed so to engage on an £8 tax. That is perfectly reasonable.

The Minister mentioned that these people might come into competition with hauliers. I think the amendment would prevent that. I have brought it down to the point that it only deals with those under £50 valuation. There is not much danger of a man with that valuation going into competition with hauliers.

Why is there not? How many men of £50 valuation engage in all kinds of business?

He would only have a small tractor. My idea in bringing in the amendment is that in an isolated rural district you may have a man with a tractor and another man who is anxious to get home a load of turf. The owner of the tractor would not be legally entitled to do that because he might be rewarded in some way, either in money or in kind. If a farmer had to get his cattle to the fair there might be a reward of one kind or another. It was in order to set these people's minds at rest that I brought in these amendments.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 66; Níl, 45.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheldon, William A.W.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Carew, John.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finan, John.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keane, Seán.
  • Larkin, James.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Mac Fheórais.
Question declared carried.

I move amendment No. 6:—

6. In page 8, Part II of the Schedule, to add at the end of paragraph 5 a new sub-paragraph as follows:—

(6) In the case of a vehicle to which paragraph 6 (d) of Part I of this Schedule applies which does not exceed 10 h.p. and was first registered six or more years before the first day of January, 1953, or any succeeding year, the rate of duty prescribed in paragraph 6 (d) already referred to shall be reduced by 50 per cent.

This amendment has been tabled to meet modern conditions in the motoring world. Every Deputy knows how difficult and expensive old cars are to maintain. After all, they are the cars used by people who cannot afford better. If the Minister could see his way to accept this amendment it would help in no small way the people, especially in the rural areas, who cannot afford to have a better car. Those cars are used very extensively to further the particular business of the individuals concerned. They never get an opportunity of going out on the main road unless they happen to travel to see an all-Ireland football final. I would like to impress on the Minister the great necessity for the reduction in the tax and to say that it would help to alleviate the burden on those people.

I think that Deputies are to be congratulated on the wide range of interests they represented in this House. When different sections of the community are affected by any proposal like this they seem to make the same appeal to all Deputies, and especially to those Deputies who speak from the Opposition Benches. I have a great deal of respect for old things but it would be impossible for me to accede to all the requests that were made to me since these proposals were introduced. First I was asked to relieve the burden on the man who took out the driving licence; next came the hackney owners and the taxi owners. The next plea was made on behalf of private lorry owners, the people who were represented to me as men who had come out of the Army and who had secured gratuities and invested those gratuities in the purchase of these vehicles. The next class I was invited to remove from the scope of these proposals were the people referred to in the last amendment. Now I am asked to have sympathy and respect for the old cars. As I said, I may have a great deal of respect and sympathy for old cars and for a lot of other things that are old, but again I must emphasise that the people who own these old cars are ratepayers and taxpayers. They use the roads and roads have to be made. They must be made from the two sources I have already mentioned— from the Road Fund and from rates.

Deputy O'Reilly, as a member of this House and as a member of a county council, knows just how the rates stand in regard to this and other matters. He knows that rates are high. He knows that to mention increasing the rates in any particular county now would not produce a favourable response from the people who have to pay them. He knows that in a general way motor taxation has been out of line with the general position all over the country for many years past, and I believe myself I am speaking truthfully and representing accurately the feeling in the country irrespective of what I am told by Deputies who say: "I was approached on behalf of the hackney owners in order to secure a reduction in the proposed tax". Another Deputy may say: "I was approached by the people who take out driving licences". Another Deputy might say that he was approached by some other particular section such as the people who own the type of cars that are referred to in this amendment. I, too, meet a lot of people who are the owners of lorries and motor-cars, and drivers of motor-cars and I would say I know the circumstances of all these classes as well as most people. I know that none of these people likes increased taxes, but is it not a strange thing that while I have received quite a number of circulars from organised bodies of one kind or another protesting against these proposals, no individual has seriously come forward to me as an ordinary Deputy and complained of the effect, that they were unjust having regard to the needs of the moment, to the needs of the roads, to the needs of the ratepayers, to the problems of the ratepayers and to the problems of the State? Although no person clapped me on the back and said he was very glad to pay it—nobody does that—no person who will be affected by this taxation came and said: "It is a wonder you would do such a thing knowing, as you should, the circumstances in which we are".

I have listened to the appeals of organised bodies and examined the contentions they advanced in support of the demands they made. I have to listen to Deputies in this House representing proposals like this as outrageous, unjust and tyrannical, and I have to listen to Deputies saying: "You will not give way on anything. You are a person who will not give way to reason." I think the reason is all on my side. If I were to give way on the proposals I am defending here I would be giving away to people who were unreasonable and who were refusing and are refusing to face the facts as I see them.

As I said before, it is not that I love the task of having to come in here and justify increased payments from any section, whether they are road users as motorists or as owners of tractors, trailers, lorries or whatever other vehicle they make use of on the roads. I will emphasise again that I am quite satisfied that members of local bodies especially, who have this enormous task before them of making roads in order to satisfy the requirements of modern times—and mind you these demands will become greater—realise that instead of these proposals being designed, or being likely in any way, to hinder that development, there is not the slightest chance in the world that development will be impeded. These proposals are designed to enable local bodies to prepare the highways of the country for increased development in that direction.

I say here with confidence that I would not mind if my task was facing all those people, those different classes together in one hall or public place because I would have no hesitation, and I have no doubt that I would have no difficulty in convincing the majority of them—and I take it they are mostly reasonable persons—as to the necessity for these proposals, as to the urgency for doing something along the lines at which I am aiming and as to the justice of the methods we have decided upon here.

The old cars are a problem and perhaps a case could be made along the lines that Deputy O'Reilly has made and maybe even a stronger case, but I was not in a position to give way to any of the requests that came from any of the classes affected by these proposals, because I had to aim at securing a certain sum of money. The amount I would like to get as Minister for Local Government by these proposals is less than what we would in justice require. Therefore, I must take up the same attitude in regard to this matter as I have taken in relation to all the others we have discussed to-day for so long.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Question—"That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Resolution No. 2"—put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 66; Níl, 39.

  • Aiken Frank.
  • Allen Denis.
  • Beegan Patrick.
  • Blaney Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera. Vivion.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, John.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Carew, John.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keane, Seán.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lehane, Patrick D.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Mac Fheórais.
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn