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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Nov 1952

Vol. 134 No. 13

Private Deputies' Business. - White Paper on Trend of External Trade—Motion.

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the White Paper on the Trend of External Trade and Payments, 1951, presented to Oireachtas Éireann by the Minister for Finance, in so far as it purports to draw conclusions from the statistical material set out, is in the main tendentious nonsense; that the White Paper has been presented improvidently and that the Minister for Finance is deserving of censure for having presented this discreditable document to Oireachtas Éireann.
—(Deputy James Dillon).

Last Friday, intermittently and between the antics of house-gathering, I was endeavouring to address myself to the subject-matter of this motion. To view this White Paper and its implications, it is necessary to analyse in a general way the economic structure conceived by the present occupant of the Department of Finance and at the same time to point out in a demonstrably clear way how far wrong the assumptions were and how far-reaching and devastating in fact were the repercussions.

This White Paper, in itself, must have the criterion of truth. In its tables, in its general information with regard to figures and statistics, one accepts without qualifications the basis of truth. But the quarrel in the whole presentation of this paper and in the general atmosphere that surrounded its presentation was the completely erroneous conclusions that were come to by the Minister. So erroneous and so unreal were these conclusions that we press the view that the very nature of this error, the very magnitude of the mistake that could be made on these assumptions, disqualifies the present occupant from being worthy of or capable of holding his office. We had the insistent wails, taken up in chorus by those on the Government Benches, prognosticating doom and ruin. It is true that the devil can quote scripture for his purpose. In this case, I submit to the House that figures were deliberately twisted and distorted and that inferences were drawn from figures for the purpose of creating a false premise on which the Minister for Finance based his hair-shirt policy and his appeal to the Irish people to eat less, drink less and, in fact, to depress their general standard of life.

One may feel sympathy for the Minister in the resentment he might have felt at the unqualified and unparalleled success of the previous three years' administration. One might feel sympathy for the chagrin that must have permeated his being when he realised the impetus of expansion that was left as the trail of successful government— government that envisaged the needs of all sections of the community, government that embarked on a policy of immense national capital development and based its financial approach on the theory that Irish money was best and most properly invested at home in the development of Ireland itself whether it be in the building of houses for its citizens, in the continued expansion of rural electrification, in improved drainage, in increased afforestation or in other projects of national magnitude. I know that that was a deep source of torment to the present Administration. However, one has to analyse here in a realistic way the assumptions that it led to.

The kernel of the Minister's doctrine was that there could not be any appreciable expansion of exports. Never was a statement so false and never was it made on so slight a premise, because the exact contrary has been the case. It is true that the Minister may— through particular glasses coloured by spite and hate—have taken a distorted view of the work of the previous Minister for Agriculture, but the facts are now abundantly clear. The impetus given in agriculture has manifested itself in an unprecedented and unparalleled expansion of exports. The full extent of that expansion can be seen only now because, of necessity, there must be a delay in the coming to light of the full value of the impetus which was given. The Minister did not seem to appreciate the fact that Deputy Dillon, the predecessor of the present Minister for Agriculture, re-established Irish agriculture on a firm basis. We were having an expansion of live stock in the country and the pig industry, which had disappeared, was re-established on a sound basis. All the caterwauling and all the wails of Deputy Corry about various trade agreements were to fall to nought and we were to see reflected, not only in statistics but in actual financial returns, an increase of earnings by the agricultural community that reached an unprecedented height.

The Minister started, on the basis of this document, a campaign to reduce consumption. He took the view —we may say erroneously, even maliciously erroneously—that the Irish people were eating too much, that they were looking too well and that their standard of life was too good. He set about putting his dead hand on the Irish people. He immediately depressed imports—imports that we suggested here in a realistic way would find their own readjustment. The period of scarcity that had arisen from emergency and war conditions had passed and, with the expansion of our own exports, we would find coming automatically in a short period an adjustment of the balance as between imports and exports, and there was no need for alarm.

We in the Opposition asserted and fearlessly asserted our belief in the capacity of the Irish people themselves, working on the land of Ireland, to right the whole situation by their own productive effort. Thanks be to God, here, in the realism of the atmosphere before us now, on a factual analysis of the results, our faith has been more than justified. Once again, the economy of this country has been righted in the main through the effort, the industry and the increased productivity of the land of Ireland by the people working on the land and getting their living from it.

This motion gives us an opportunity of analysing the fallacies of the economic conception of the Government. The trail of misery that it has left behind is pathetic. It is infinitely pathetic to us here in Opposition when we realise that it is unnecessary and that it is a hardship that should not have been inflicted on the Irish people. We say that the results that have flown from this document, the keystone of the economic fallacies of the present Government, have been rising unemployment, a depressed standard of living, depressed consumption, increased part-time employment, trade recession and all the various other attributes that must inevitably flow when the Government and the Minister responsible for the national purse takes the line of a doleful Jimmy.

We say now that, in the light of what happened, there was no need to retard the expansion that the previous Government had envisaged. There was no need to check the gathering strength and impetus to improve not only production but to wrest in a realistic way with the problem of housing, the problem of social development, the problem of general internal improvement in the conditions of the people and the general standards of life.

We say that but for the gloomy prognostications arising initially out of speeches made by the Minister for Finance apropos of this document, there would have been no necessity for the unprecedented rise in unemployment, no necessity for the slowing down of housing or no necessity for any Minister for Finance to have to go to the people of this country for a national loan at the rate of interest which the Minister recently had to offer. We asserted here at the period when this document was presented to both Houses of the Oireachtas that the Minister was deliberately endangering and imperilling the possibility of getting that loan. We say that this document, followed as it was by the Central Bank Report and then by the bludgeoning savage Budgets, has had the effect, has, in fact, been the root cause, of forcing the Minister to offer such attractive terms for the biggest national loan ever offered. At the same time, it has had its reaction in making the price of borrowed money for all persons very much higher, and, as we contend, far in excess of the rate they should be asked to pay. Despite the wails of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs about standing armies in England, we protested vehemently to the Government that there was no need to slow up the repatriation of foreign assets when they could be repatriated for the purpose of giving an impetus to projects of capital development at home.

We know now, only 12 months afterwards, that this Government, where it had not the courage to abandon the schemes envisaged by the last Government, initiated a "go slow" policy. We know that application after application for inspection and review under the land rehabilitation scheme is held up on technical hitches and that there is a delay in the forward impetus of liming and rehabilitation of land. We can see from the rising unemployment in the building trade that there has been a definite depression and "go slow" policy in that trade. We know, and it is a fact that even the Government themselves cannot get over, that, from the time they took office, from the time the economic policy announced by the Minister for Finance on the wrong assumptions and the wrong inferences drawn by him from that document came into being, this country has suffered difficulties and recessions in trade which are virtually unparalleled in its history.

All the assumptions of the Minister were based as I said before, on the conclusion that there could not be a rapid expansion of exports. Many tawdry excuses were used in this document to suggest that it would be unwise to draw this conclusion or that conclusion. Even the strike that was temporarily in being at the ports was used to justify the statements that it would not be safe to take the figure in September as a reliable one. All these prognostications have been proved completely false. We have reached the extraordinary position in this country that for the first time in our history exports are going to be well over the £100,000,000 mark. If this Government had realistically faced up to the fact that the Irish farmer was geared up to expand, that the farmer and his helper on the land, having improved and better conditions, were geared up to make a bigger contribution to the national effort then we could have expanded exports even more rapidly. Instead we had this woeful dallying, this succession of lachrymose prognostications by the Minister for Finance with the Tánaiste following him, and, of course, the ever-increasing wails of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs who has set himself up, apparently, as the economic genius or who purports to be the economic genius, behind this queer facade of omniscience.

The sooner this Government realise that the inferences drawn from the White Paper have brought about the state of affairs where a working-class district like North-West Dublin can give the answer it did to the Government a week ago, the better for themselves. If they are to stay in office and I believe personally they will endeavour to stay there as long as possible, we urge from the Opposition Benches here that they should get somebody more worthy to fill the office of the Minister for Finance than the present occupant. We say that the very basis and the very conclusions drawn by him from the figures set out in this paper disqualify him from holding the high office he does. The present Minister has occupied many offices in the Government of this State from time to time but none with less distinction than he has displayed in the one he occupies at present. We say that, in the main actuated by spite because of the success of the previous Administration, the Minister for Finance has set about the task of bludgeoning the Irish people, depressing their standard of living, deliberately decreasing their consumption and deliberately creating an atmosphere so unreal that it took a by-election in a working-class district to extract the real answer of the Irish people.

I am not going to labour this motion any further. I can appreciate Deputy Briscoe's anxiety to get in. I would not be here this evening talking on this motion if a reasonable opportunity had been given to me on Friday to say what I have now said. I want to say that, in the light of all that has happened, it is full time for the Minister now occupying the office of Minister for Finance to recant, if he has any sense of public duty, and to vacate that office because every conclusion drawn by him has been completely erroneous. The sooner we get the opportunity of putting the Irish people back on the road to expansion and development and of putting Irish boys and girls back into employment in Ireland, and of arresting the present trends, the better it will be, not only for the Ireland of to-day, but for the Ireland of to-morrow.

Deputy Collins, in concluding, has indicated to the House that, had he not been prevented from saying on Friday evening what he has said this evening, he would not be speaking this evening. Deputy Collins has had time since last Friday to examine the document to which the motion before the House relates, but in all the ferocity of his attack, or his attempted attack, he did not quote a single figure from either the exports or imports referred to in the White Paper under discussion. He generalised in a manner that one might expect to hear a speaker indulge in at election time —an appeal to the emotions of the people by saying that this Government is out, as a result of this White Paper, to force the people to eat less and to drink less—but he did not produce a single figure to substantiate that statement.

On Friday, when Deputy Dillon moved this motion, he was surrounded at the beginning of the debate by some 30 or 40 members of the Opposition. At the beginning of his introduction to the motion, there was great hilarity and applause at his joke. He reminded me of a man I heard about who, when surrounded by a certain number of people, made remarks which resulted in rounds of applause and laughter. The person making the jokes, or what he thought were jokes, believed that the laughter was at his wit. He did not realise that it was at the half-wit.

Shortly after Deputy Dillon had commenced his introductory speech, he found himself entirely without support from the Labour Benches. There was not a single Labour member present, and, except for an odd member of his own Party coming in to replace another member on the Front Opposition Bench so as to be sure that somebody would be present to second his motion when he had concluded, there was nobody there to listen to him.

First of all, I think it is relevant to read for the House an extract from a speech which was made here on the subject by Deputy Costello when he was Taoiseach. I propose quoting from Volume 112, column 2146, on the 5th August, 1948. I think it is well, in view of what we have heard from the proposer and seconder of this motion, that attention should be drawn to what was then said:—

"When the 1938 Agreement was being negotiated the adverse trade balance between this country and Great Britain was such as not to cause any anxiety or certainly very little anxiety. In the intervening period the adverse trade balance has gone to an extent which must cause anybody who thinks about it for one moment or who looks at the figures the utmost alarm for our economic and financial stability. The balance of payments between this country and Great Britain has, in recent years, become completely disordered. When we took office some months ago and became aware of the actual position in regard to the adverse trade balance and the nature and the alarming extent of that adverse trade balance it was one of the problems that gave us the greatest pos- sible cause for dismay. We felt that it was essential, if this country was to retain its economic stability, that steps must urgently be taken to redress that adverse balance of trade and to try to restore order into our disordered balance of payments. That was one of the big factors that we had to keep before us during our negotiations with Great Britain. I am glad to say that we have been able to achieve agreement, embodied in the agreement that is before the House, as to the methods by which we will be enabled to deal with that very alarming and very urgent problem."

The conclusion referred to in this White Paper, part of paragraph 17, which has been repeated ad nauseam during this debate, and which says that:

"The inescapable conclusion is that substantial relief to the balance of payments can only be achieved by importing less",

is regarded, and stated categorically by the previous speakers to be, "tendentious nonsense". Our predecessors, in their few years in office, regarded that as a vital, important and urgent matter, in connection with which they did nothing, but when it fell to their successors in office to try to recognise the serious position that could overtake this country if a continuation of that policy were allowed to go on, it is immediately translated, notwithstanding what they said as holders of office, as "tendentious nonsense".

Deputy Dillon started off his references to the White Paper by the production of a rather large photograph which appeared in the Irish Times depicting some timber being shipped to the North of Ireland. He held it before him as exhibit No. 1, one of the many exhibits he was going to produce to satisfy the Dáil and the country that, in the words of his motion, this White Paper was deserving of condemnation. It is only reasonable that one should try to get some perspective about the facts and deal with them also in a reasonable way. The Deputy adduced, first of all, as one of his figures, that the cost of timber in the construction of a house would be somewhere about 5 per cent. of the total cost of the building of a house, and from that proceeded to show the desperate situation which now confronts us as a result of a certain limited amount of timber having been exported.

I think it was the Minister for Finance who pointed out to him by way of interjection that timber merchants in this country were prevailed upon to import and to build up a substantial stockpile of timber in order that our requirements, particularly with regard to housing, would be met. That was confirmed by Deputy Dillon, who stated quite clearly that it was at the request and on the advice of the then Government these timber merchants, as other importers of essential commodities were asked to do, imported sufficiently large quantities to warrant our supply being regarded as stockpiling.

The annual consumption of timber in this country, according to figures which are available, is about 75,000 standards, and for a half-year would be 37,500 standards. As I said, following the advice of the then Coalition Government, the merchants bought in timber rapidly, notwithstanding the fact that they were buying in a rising market. We must not forget that the reason given for the necessity to buy and to stockpile was the advent of the Korean situation and, with the advent of that situation, the prices throughout the world of most commodities took a steep rise.

The price of Scandinavian softwood rose from £60 per standard c.i.f. in the first half of 1950 to £84 in March, 1951, and ultimately to a figure of £104. Since then timber slumped to something like £74 per ton in the first half of this year, and has now settled itself at from £80 to £84. Obviously in that stockpiling of timber there must be some timber, if it has not been used or has not been replaced by the cheaper timber which has come in since that period, bought at the high price and that is now affected in its price by the world price of timber. Consequently, traders and firms who held large stocks of commodities brought in owing to this stockpiling idea, found themselves with large overdrafts and heavy pressure to liquidate them.

It was suggested that the permits to export a quantity of this timber would affect the building programme and the housing of our people. It was even stated that this was proof that this Government were going to stop the campaign which they had inaugurated in 1932 and kept going at full speed during the time of their previous period of office and again taken up since they resumed office. Nobody told us on Friday how much timber was in the country and how much had left it. Fortunately, as a result of a question by Deputy Donnellan to-day, we got some very important elucidating information which shatters completely the arguments put up on Friday by Deputy Dillon. It is worth while asking ourselves what it all means. The Minister's reply to to-day's question states:

"Towards the end of 1950 timber merchants were encouraged by the Government of the day to lay in stocks of timber against a possible emergency. It was considered that stock should be maintained at six months' requirements, or approximately 80,000 tons, and the timber trade was exhorted to try to reach this target. In 1951 heavy purchases were made by these firms.

During the early part of 1952 timber prices on world markets began to fall and by the middle of the year the prices had dropped by about a quarter as compared with the 1951 level.

Last July representatives of the timber trade informed me that the fall in world prices had placed them in an extremely serious position as they were carrying very heavy stocks of high-priced timber. They stated that timber in stock and purchased represented almost one year's requirements and that the drop in prices had thrown a serious strain on their financial resources, especially as certain firms who had not previously imported timber were availing of the current lower prices to bring in timber, thus rendering the high-priced timber more or less unsaleable.

The timber trade representatives asked that they should be helped to liquidate without loss the stocks which had been built up in keeping with Government policy and proposed that imports should be controlled. This proposal did not commend itself to me, because, among other reasons, import control would tend to keep up building costs. As an alternative, I indicated that the grant of export facilities would be considered to help them to reduce surplus stocks and facilitate the earlier importation of lower-priced timber. The timber trade representatives did not consider that it would not be possible for them to avail of that facility to any extent and, up to the present, licences have been issued only for the export of 5,745 tons, a quantity which represents less than 4 per cent. of our normal yearly requirements of timber."

It represents a lot of houses.

It is very difficult sometimes to get people to understand the most simple language. Deputy Dillon told us at one stage that he was speaking figuratively and at another stage that he was speaking literally. I am not speaking metaphorically; I am speaking categorically. First of all, I have tried to prove that we have sufficient stocks of timber in the country at the moment to meet approximately one year's building requirements at the present rate of building, which is higher than last year and higher again than the year under review.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is nonsense.

Deputy Briscoe is touching wood.

I will give you figures. I have them here.

At what time does this debate conclude?

Is there a right of reply?

I asked for a ruling.

I am putting to you, Sir——

I have asked for a ruling.

A ruling before the Minister puts his point.

I am putting, as a point of order, that there has never been a reserved right of reply in a motion. Two speakers from the other side of the House have spoken.

That is the usual attempt to dictate to the Chair.

You do not want to take the facts.

It has been a convention of this House to allow the mover of a motion a reasonable time in which to reply, but the Chair cannot enforce that rule because it has not been written into Standing Orders and the Chair cannot insist on any Deputy who is in possession giving way.

The procedure, I understand, which is recognised is 20 minutes.

I must put it to you, Sir——

I am putting a point of order against this speech.

We will not allow Deputy Briscoe to be closured. Deputy Dillon spoke for an hour and three-quarters. I am putting a point of order.

You did not mention a point of order. I am putting a point of order.

I am putting a point——

This is a speech. I am putting a point of order to the Chair for the third time. Am I ignored?

The Chair refuses to hear a point of order? The Minister for Finance did not make a point of order, and did not even purport to make a point of order. He made a point of disorder, and again he is continuing to attempt to dictate to the Chair. May I take it that the ruling now given is to apply to all motions in the future, and to the mover of a motion in this House from whatever side of the House it is put: if the motion is moved by a member of the Government, the Minister or any other member of the Government will be denied the right to reply to the debate on the motion? A motion, once it is moved, whether it is moved from one side of the House or the other, is a motion in accordance with Standing Orders, and it does not, I submit, make any difference whether it is moved by an ordinary Deputy or by a member of the Government.

The Deputy must appreciate that there is a difference between a Government motion and a Private Deputy's motion. The Chair has no machinery by which it can enforce the convention that the mover of a motion gets time to reply.

I am making a point of order. Since this House was established it has been the practice, which has never been questioned until now, that the mover of a motion should have the right to reply. This can cut both ways. Are you not establishing a precedent now?

So did Deputy Collins.

The Chair has pointed out that there is a convention but that the Chair has no machinery by which the Chair can enforce it, as it is not written into Standing Orders.

I should like to make a point so that there will be no misunderstanding as to what the Government's attitude on this matter is.

There have been many occasions on which the Government spokesman has been precluded from making a reply. I am putting it to you, Sir, that most of the time of this motion has been occupied by speakers on the opposite side of the House, and that one spokesman of the Government should be heard without further interruption.

I submit with respect that the Minister should not be making these points. If he were doing his duty he would be making the speech which Deputy Briscoe is attempting to make. That is the Minister's duty, that is his responsibility, and that is what he is paid for, and he is shirking it.

I want your ruling clarified.

Is this a point of order?

Your ruling is that the debate ends at 10 o'clock and that it is a convention of the House that there is the right of reply lasting 20 minutes. Is it not so?

Of course it is so. The Chair has said that.

A reply of 20 minutes in such a debate as this?

I am putting to you——

I have asked for a ruling on that.

I have already given a ruling on that.

On the 20 minutes?

No, not on the 20 minutes.

The procedure is 20 minutes for a reply.

Why not vacate the Chair and put Deputy McGilligan into it?

The Chair has already ruled that 20 minutes is the time allowed.

The Chair has said that there is a convention that a reasonable time should be allowed for the mover of a motion to reply, but that the Chair has no way of enforcing that.

I am not speaking of enforcing it. I am speaking of what is a reasonable time. 20 minutes is a reasonable time, and I ask for a ruling on that.

On this occasion——

I ask for a ruling on the time point.

On a point of order——

I ask for a ruling on the time point.

That has always been accepted.

I ask a ruling.

I would like to suggest on a point of order that before a ruling is given on an important matter of this kind An Ceann Comhairle should be sent for.

The Chair has already given the position to the House. The Chair has no function——

The Chair has a function.

May I point out that the mover of the motion is not, in fact, in his place?

How does the Minister know where he is?

I am putting a point of order.

Deputy Briscoe need not give way.

He must give way to a point of order, and I want to put a point of order.

You are afraid now of getting your answer.

Mr. O'Higgins

Who is afraid of what?

If you want an answer ask the Minister to discharge his duty to the Dáil and to the country.

Dublin North-West gave the answer.

This is an attempt to drown the fact that an outrage on Private Deputies has been committed here to-night. What are Deputy Cogan, Deputy Cowan and the others doing? This is an outrage on Private Deputies' time for the first occasion since this House was established and it is committed by the man who again refuses, for the second time, to discharge his duty to the people of the country by giving information to the House.

I want to point out to Deputy Morrissey, who pretends great anger, the inference of the situation which he is trying to perpetuate. Deputy Dillon, who moved the motion, with full knowledge of the procedure of the House, spoke for an hour and three-quarters. Deputy Collins, again against the procedure of this House, instead of formally seconding the motion, made a speech. This side of the House, out of the full three hours, has had barely 20 minutes, and only ten minutes more are left.

On a point of order.

You do not want the people to hear the truth. You want to go on with your electioneering misstatements. That is what it is.

Ask Irishmen about that.

In view of the fact that the Ceann Comhairle ruled on four separate occasions on last Friday that I was in order in speaking as seconder of the motion, is the Deputy entitled to put it to the Chair that I was not so in order?

The Deputy broke the convention.

There is no such convention and well Deputy Briscoe knows it. The man who broke it is the Minister for Finance.

I was pointing out that——

On a point of order.

Can you not listen to the truth for a change?

Am I to understand now that the procedure hereafter on a Private Member's motion is——

This is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, not for here.

Deputy McGilligan on a point of order.

He is not raising a point of order.

You cannot take it.

I can take a two to one majority better than the Deputy. Am I to understand now that a new convention has been established in the House that on a Private Deputy's motion no time is to be allowed to the mover?

A Private Member's motion can be talked out and has been on many occasions.

I cannot rule for future occasions. I can only rule on the present matter.

The ruling at the moment is that no time for reply is going to be allotted by the Chair.

Is the Deputy questioning your ruling?

Kicking for touch.

Who said anything about kicking for touch? There are a lot of people inclined to stay on the field of play long after the game has been over, even though there is a heavy goal score against them. Is it not in the power of the Chair at least to appeal to members on the other side to obey the conventions of the House? I know the Chair has no power to enforce. There is rowdyism at the moment.

The Chair cannot enforce.

What is happening is permitted rowdyism.

By whom?

Deputy McGilligan has made a reflection on the Chair——

No. It is rowdyism.

——that there is rowdyism on one side of the House. The Chair is permitting no rowdyism on either side.

There is a new convention——

I wish to put a point of order.

I have not completed my point of order.

I want to draw the attention of the Chair——

Would Deputy McGilligan come to his point of order?

I would have reached it but for the rowdyism. I suggest that the Chair has duties in this matter. When it is admitted that there are conventions, the Chair surely has not merely to sit idly by and allow a breach of the conventions.

By whom?

I am not yet at my point of order.

The Chair has already pointed out to the Deputy and made the position very clear——

No, it has not.

——that it was the convention of the House to allow reasonable time for the mover to reply. If the Deputy in possession——

Will the Deputy sit down?

I am listening most attentively.

If the Deputy in possession does not wish to give way, the Chair cannot enforce.

I understand. I understand that the Chair cannot enforce. I am asking this——

Deputy Briscoe on the motion.

I am asking if the Chair has no power of persuasion other than coercion. If the Chair is not going to attempt that, I must say the Chair is permitting rowdyism.

Just a moment, please.

Deputies

Sit down.

On a point of order.

Order for the Minister.

I wish to call your attention to the fact that Deputy McGilligan has alleged that the Chair is permitting rowdyism. That, I think, is a reflection on the Chair.

No, it is a reflection on the rowdies.

That is a reflection on the Chair and I submit to you that it should be withdrawn.

Sir——

Deputy Briscoe on the motion.

I do not think that, in my short intervention in this matter, I have been in any way out of order.

The procedure of the convention is gone.

Deputy McGilligan should not interrupt. Deputy McGilligan should resume his seat.

I will not, until I am allowed to make this point of order, which I am entitled to make.

The Chair has answered the point of order.

No; there is a completely different point of order. I suggest that——

I hope the notetaker will be able to continue taking my speech.

I suggest that his breaking of the convention is in breach of the procedure of the House.

Deputy Briscoe is in order.

The question has been put——

This is dope for the Irish Press.

This is the truth for the people. The question has been put to you, and I must repeat it, as to the doubts put on the statement I made that more houses are being built this year and more houses were built last year than in the preceding year.

Ask the building workers.

I want to quote the Statistics Office.

Ask the building workers. Do not mind the Statistics Office.

The number of new houses built by State aid, by local authorities, public utility societies and private persons in 1952 will be higher than in 1951 and the number built in 1951 was higher than in 1950.

Why did not you tell them that in North-West Dublin?

Every single person in Cabra North-West is living in a house, thank goodness, built by the Fianna Fáil Government—every single one of them. There was not a Cabra North-West before Fianna Fáil created it. Every child that followed Alfie Byrne around is getting the children's allowance of 4/- a week provided by this Government. That is something you did not tell them. Is it to be assumed that the whole country could be fooled as the people there were?

You got your answer. Dublin gave you your answer.

The people of this country are not as foolish——

They were very sensible last week.

Very sensible, because they will live to regret it if their example were to be followed by anybody else.

Deputies

Go to the country.

There should be some order.

It is an extraordinary thing that the Fine Gael people did not feel their position sufficiently strong to put in a candidate. They are silent on that—climbing into a seat on Deputy Byrne's back.

Deputy Briscoe should come to the motion.

Yes, Sir.

On a point of order. Is it in order, in discussing the motion, to discuss Cabra North-West?

It is very difficult for the Chair to know what is being discussed.

(Interruptions.)

Was it for this kind of stuff that the convention of this House for years was broken?

Was it for this kind of thing that men were murdered on 8th December?

Deputy Briscoe on the motion.

Deputy Collins gave Deputy Dillon a pat on the back for his contribution to the increase in agricultural production. Look what this says about the efforts of that gentleman. I will read you an item.

This is the tendentious nonsense?

On a point of order. I take it that the vote will be taken at the end of this discussion, and that it will not be talked out and another convention of the House broken?

That is not a point of order.

Only one side of the House will be allowed to talk.

In 1950, eggs to the extent of £5,000,000 were exported. In 1951, eggs to the extent of £2,500,000 were exported. The quantity fell by 1,500,000 great hundreds, or a reduction of 45 per cent.

I wish to make a motion.

Deputy Briscoe has two minutes in which to conclude.

I can only make the motion within the two minutes. I want to submit a motion to the Chair.

On a point of order or on a motion?

I want to submit a motion to the Chair. The motion is that the question be now put.

The Chair is not accepting the motion.

On a point of order. May we take the Minister's disrespect for the Chair by the fact that he has been sitting with his back turned to the Chair for the last five minutes?

Two members of the Opposition Party took one and three-quarter hours and half-an-hour respectively to put the motion, and when it is attempted to deal with the motion——

Three minutes out of 20 I was given on Friday.

The Deputy was not disturbed by one interjection this evening in his whole 20 minutes, and he had not taken the precaution to glance at a single figure in the White Paper over the week-end. The position now, Sir, is that we are not allowed make any case against the motion. We have rights in this House. Members on this side of the House have rights too, where we can go on record and where we can be quoted.

Question put.
The Dáil divided. Tá, 61; Níl, 66.

  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, Thomas N.J.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Carew, John.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
  • O'Leary, Johnny.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finan, John.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keane, Seán.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lynch, John (North Kerry)
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mannion, John.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, John.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Duignan, Peadar.
  • Fanning, John.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • ÓBriain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Doyle and P almer; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea.
Motion declared lost.
Barr
Roinn