When the debate on the Estimate was adjourned, I was expressing the opinion that our people in Kerry welcome this proposal. I would like the Minister to consider some points which I desire to bring to his notice. I am aware, from what the people have told me, that they now have confidence in this scheme so far as small holdings are concerned. I find from the official list that the number of applications from Kerry sent into the Department was 750 while the number which the Department have agreed to take up is 35.
In Mayo, which is a county somewhat similar to ours, I find that 250 schemes have been agreed from a similar number of applicants. That bears out the statement I made earlier, that so far as we in South Kerry are concerned the scheme is not working out as it should. My colleague, Deputy Palmer, or if I may describe him as my sparring partner, made the case here yesterday that Fianna Fáil objected to this scheme because it was introduced by Deputy Dillon. That is not the case at all. Our people would object to it in any case because it was not working out as we thought it would. We would be prepared to give Deputy Dillon all the credit that is due to him if the scheme were a success.
There are certain ideals and ideas involved so far as certain aspects of this land rehabilitation scheme are concerned. It could be a very good scheme if approached properly and handled in the right way. My experience of the officials in County Kerry was not very happy. Without saying anything against them personally, I think their approach from the small farmer's point of view was hopeless.
I ask the Minister when dealing with this question of contractors also to be very careful. Employing contractors is all right if there is competition and if you have a sufficient number of them who will compete against each other. Then the farmers will get the benefit. But the danger I see in it is that it may result in a combination by a group of people to do something which would upset the whole idea behind the Minister's proposal. There is one fact that he must be aware of, that in my county if a contractor is given the right to operate in a certain area he will take very good care that he will work for the larger farmer at a high price in preference to going to a congested district where he will have to work for a number of smallholders at perhaps a lower price. These points are very well worth consideration. I ask the Minister so to arrange this scheme that that could not occur.
There is no doubt but that the scheme as visualised by the previous Government could have been a good scheme, but very expensive machinery was employed. I know one or two cases in County Kerry where there was a breakdown in the machinery and men were left idle for days and weeks by the people in control of these larger machines which were being worked by the Department at considerable cost to the people concerned.
Great play has been made about the Minister's proposal to sell the machinery. I suggest that the Minister could get hundreds of offers from practical farmers and farmers' sons, who will purchase this machinery and work it as it should be worked, not in the haphazard way in which it was being worked. It is well known that when machinery is being operated by a Department of State there is an inclination always to assume that if there is a breakdown it will be made right at the expense of the taxpayers, and that you need not care very much about the depreciation of the machinery. But if you get practical farmers' sons, who will purchase the machinery or lease it from the Department, you will have very good work done at lesser cost than it has been done heretofore, and in a more satisfactory manner for the people concerned. The great thing I see about the Minister's proposal is that it will give these farmers' sons such an opportunity. They have some capital and would be prepared to invest it. I know several of them in my own county who would be prepared to avail of the Minister's offer, and purchase or lease this machinery for operation in their own county. That would mean a wonderful advance when contrasted with what has been happening. We had no machinery down there. We could not get any machinery.
Look at the expense of sending officials round the country examining holdings and preparing maps, etc. That seemed to be a grand thing on the surface but, as I said before, of 750 applications only 35 were accepted. These inspectors come along at considerable cost to the taxpayer and they might be operating for the next five years. The people were laughing at the way in which the scheme was working out. I am not aware of how it worked in other counties, but I am giving a true report as to how it worked out in my district.
Reference was made by several Deputies to the cost per acre. Everyone is aware that the cost, when the scheme was being operated by the Department, worked out on an average of £50 per acre, while all the farmer doing the work himself could obtain was approximately £20 per acre — £9 10s. to be exact. There is no play-acting in this proposal I have to make. Deputy Palmer stated yesterday that the Fianna Fáil Party were play-acting or playing politics. This is a sound business proposition. I suggest that it could be done in this way. The Minister could strike an average between the present cost of £50 per acre and the £20 per acre allowed to the farmer and increase the amount to the farmer to £35 per acre. That may appear an exorbitant demand. But when you consider the cost of inspection and all the work which had to be done by the Department in connection with doing the work themselves and the fact that it cost the Department £50 per acre while the farmer doing the work himself got only £20, it would be only justice to the farmer that he should be given £30 or £35 per acre for doing the work. I make that suggestion to the Minister on behalf of the people I represent.
In regard to the ground limestone scheme, we are aware that it is difficult to handle limestone in the congested and mountainous areas. As we have local limestone deposits in South Kerry of excellent quality, it might be possible for the Minister at some future date to give facilities for the establishment of a small plant down there, say, in Killarney or Kenmare district. Quite a number of people would be prepared to invest capital in that if they got the proper facilities and encouragement to do so and it would be better than bringing the ground limestone from Buttevant to Ballin-skellings or places like that. I think it will be more economical and less costly to the State to have all these areas developed from a centre located in the areas I have mentioned. I am aware that there are farmers and business people who would have invested in such a plan and tried to make headway in regard to it but they felt they could not compete against a system that was able to deliver ground limestone from outlying places like Buttevant or Cahirciveen. It is only natural to expect that a State-controlled scheme would be more comprehensive; it would be very difficult for the local people to compete against it and it would be unfair to expect them to do so.
Whilst paying every tribute we can to the Minister for the introduction of this scheme and giving full credit to him for the way in which the scheme is planned and the intention behind it, I would like to go further and examine the snags or the deficiencies in the way the scheme works out so far as we are concerned.
There are certain areas where smallscale drainage works can be undertaken under this land project and this machinery will play a very important part in that connection. I have mentioned on several occasions in the House, areas where the Minister for Agriculture could lease out machinery through the Board of Works or alternatively co-operate with a view to carrying out these small drainage works in certain districts. It would be a great advance instead of waiting for a number of years for a larger drainage scheme to operate. I have a particular case in mind where we were asking the Land Commission to prevent flooding and erosion of land. We pointed out to the Land Commission that the excavation and removal of a sand deposit and the diversion of the river itself to its proper channel would be a great saving to the farmers and that the necessary machinery could be very usefully lent from the Board of Works to the Land Commission.
Also in connection with the Department of Agriculture I would like to see a system operating where, whether the machinery was owned by the Department of Agriculture, by the men working under the Department or by contractors, if the Land Commission decided to carry out certain development works in certain areas, the machinery would be available as time went on for that purpose. If there was an understanding between those three Departments, the Board of Works, the Land Commission and the Department of Agriculture in regard to the drainage of the smaller areas, great progress could be made in that direction.
I believe this matter should be approached in a practical way and not by playing politics as did Deputy Palmer. He did not approach this question in the proper, business like or practical way. Deputy McQuillan and Deputy Seán Collins did approach it in a practical way. It is a matter we should all approach on its merits because it is a vital scheme to our small-holders in the different counties As I suggested before, if this machinery is leased out to small farmers' sons and to farmers' sons in any district, it will result in great work being done and steady progress being made. I again thank the Minister for this proposal.