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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 25 Feb 1953

Vol. 136 No. 11

Private Deputies' Business. - Civil Liability Bill, 1952— Second Stage.

Mr. O'Higgins

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The purpose of this Bill is to bring about a much-needed amendment and reform of our civil law. Far too little time has been devoted in our discussions here to bringing about amendment of the law which deals with the ordinary everyday life of the people. We spend a great deal of time in passing Bills which do not affect in the slightest many of the real problems which face the people. It is for that reason that we, on these benches, have introduced this Bill to bring about in one particular a much-needed reform of the law.

The Bill is styled the Civil Liability Bill and, as its title would indicate, it is intended to deal with the common law affecting liability for wrongs done between one citizen and another. I do not think it is necessary to weary the House by a discussion on our common law with regard to civil wrongs. Suffice to say that all Deputies will appreciate that if one citizen is careless and negligent in the way he conducts himself and, as a result, causes harm and injury to another citizen, he commits a civil wrong or tort entitling the person injured to sue him and recover such monetary compensation as a court may decide to give him. That is a very simple right which the law gives to all citizens and a sanction which it imposes against a wrong-doing of a civil kind.

If a person does something wrong, short of a crime, injures another person, that person is entitled to sue him and get compensation. Needless to say, it is that rule which ensures that each one of us in our everyday life tries to be careful and tries to have due regard to the ordinary rights of others, knowing that otherwise we might find ourselves sued and damages for injury recovered against us.

That rule of common law is as oldas the law itself, but after it was first recognised a rule grew up to the effect that if the injured party, the person who suffered the wrong, the person who was hurt, had been a little bit careless and if his carelessness contributed to the injury he suffered, then he was not entitled to sue anyone. If two people were driving—it may have been chariots in those days—and both were going a little carelessly, one more so than the other and one was seriously injured, neither could sue the other because the fault of each one had contributed to the injury. It was in that way that this defence of "contributory negligence" grew up.

I want to impress on Deputies the real harm and hardship that has been done and that is being done by this rule of the ordinary common law. Right throughout the years it defeated the claims of a person who was seriously and gravely injured as a result of an accident to which he had contributed in some very slight degree. That person for all time lost any right to get any compensation from anyone.

On account of the real hardship of the rule of contributory negligence, which prevented an injured person from suing, our courts here and in England tried to get out of the effect of that rule. They created a new rule of law which was called "the rule of the last or final opportunity". It arose in this way, that if two motorcars were being driven up to a corner, say one of them being driven too fast and the other on its incorrect side of the road, and they collided at or around the corner, and if before the collision took place the person who was sued later had an opportunity of avoiding the negligence of the person who was suing, then the person suing would be entitled to recover.

It was and is an artificial method, whereby the courts have endeavoured for some time past to defeat the hardship of the defence of contributory negligence. Unfortunately, even that way out is being closed now. To-day the tendency has been more and more to get away from what is called "the third question" and to leave to a jury only two questions—was the defendantnegligent, and was the plaintiff negligent? If the answers to both questions are in the affirmative, the action fails. Every day in the courts seriously injured persons are being deprived of all compensation. For that reason, we on these benches have suggested that some step to reform the law should be taken.

The proposal contained in this Bill is not a novel one, it is nothing very new or startling or strange. It is a proposal that has been tried in relation to collisions between ships at sea, over a great number of years. It is a proposal entitling a court investigating an accident or a collision to say that, by the amount that the person injured was at fault, but by no more, that person's damages will be reduced. If the person was equally at fault with the person sued, instead of getting the full amount, say, £100, which a judge might decide his injuries entitle him to, he will get only £50. That is what is called the Admiralty rule in relation to contributory negligence. It has been in operation, as I say, in relation to collisions at sea for a great number of years and is, in that connection, part of our existing statute law, being incorporated in the Maritime Conventions Act of 1911; but in any event, it is already recognised by one branch of our law, a branch of the law which does not often arise and is not frequently discussed in the courts.

It is a strange thing that that particular rule has never been applied to the ordinary accident that occurs every day in circumstances in which people seriously injured are unable to get any redress. It was this very hardship in relation to the rule of contributory negligence that caused members of the British House of Commons some years ago to get down to discuss and to see in what way the common law, which then in England was the same as it is now in Ireland, could be modified to give some relief and some redress. I think it is a tribute to that law reform committee of the British House of Commons under the chairmanship of the present Home Secretary, Sir David Maxwell-Fyffe, that, even in the middle of the turmoil and destruction of the last war, they nevertheless found timeto consider the common law as it affected and applied to ordinary British subjects.

That law reform committee was responsible for the introduction of a great number of very worthwhile law reform statutes. I will refer to only one of them which was passed in 1945. It was entitled "an Act to amend the law relating to contributory negligence and for purposes connected therewith." That Act, styled as the Law Reform (Contributory Negligence) Act, 1945, a British statute, introduced into the law of civil liability in England, into road accident cases and ordinary negligence actions, the Admiralty rule with regard to damage and contributory negligence.

I know that, since that Act was passed in Britain in 1945, a very great social wrong has been remedied. To-day the person who walks along a British road or footpath, possibly without keeping his eyes open and having due regard to everything that is taking place, who might be a little careless and who is severely injured by a negligent, drunken or careless motorist, knows that he can go to a court of law, that he can sue that motorist for damages, that he can say to a judge or jury: "I know that I was not as careful as I should have been—I was a little to blame myself —but that does not disentitle me to relief," and can get, under the Law Reform Act of 1945, a judge or a jury to assess what damages his injuries entitle him to, be it £1,000 or whatever other sum it may be. He can then get the judge or jury to consider whether or not he himself was at fault and, if so, whether he was 5 per cent., 10 per cent., 25 or 50 per cent. at fault and by the amount to which he was at fault the damages the jury have already found will be reduced.

That statute rule in England is fair both to the person sued and to the person injured, because the person sued knows that the unfortunate person who is injured, who loses an arm or a leg, has been punished by that loss in respect of whatever fault he may have been responsible for and the person who is injured gets fromthe wrongdoer some contribution for the injury he has suffered. This Bill proposes to introduce, with certain differences which are necessary, the same rule as now exists in Britain under the British Act of 1945. The material section is Section 2 which provides—I think I should read the first paragraph, because it sets out what is proposed to be done:

"Where any person suffers damage as the result partly of his own negligence and partly of the negligence of any other person or persons, a claim in respect of that damage shall not be defeated by reason of the negligence of the person suffering the damage, but the damages recoverable in respect thereof shall be reduced to such extent as the court thinks just and equitable having regard to the claimant's share in the responsibility for the damage."

This epitomises the purpose of the Bill, to visit as a punishment for contributory negligence, not the entire defeat of the claim, but the reduction in the damages that may be recovered. Section 2 of the Bill proposes to do that.

There is also in sub-section (2) of the section a consequential provision in relation to negligence causing death. In Britain, by another of the law reform statutes, the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, provision was made whereby in respect of action brought arising out of carelessness which caused death, actions brought by the dependents of a deceased person, the fault or carelessness of the deceased person does not defeat a claim, but again, there is a reduction in the amount of damages.

Sub-section (2) provides that where the action is in respect of the death of a person, the damages to be recovered by the dependents shall be reduced by the degree to which the deceased person was at fault, if the court finds that he was at fault.

Under Section 3 it is necessary to provide for consequential provisions in relation to the Workmen's Compensation Act of 1934. As the House is no doubt aware, under the Workmen'sCompensation Act, 1934, a workman who is injured in the course of his employment has alternative remedies, in the first instance, open to him. He may proceed under the Act against his employer or he may proceed at common law to sue for damages. The Workmen's Compensation Act provides that if his claim for damages is dismissed—possibly on the ground that, voluntarily, he undertook the risk or that partly he was at fault himself— the same court is entitled to award him the compensation under the Act— subject, of course, to the costs of the action. When drafting this Bill, I had in mind the possibility that a workman who sued at common law under his right under the Workmen's Compensation Act and who ordinarily might be entitled, say, to £300 or £400 damages but who was, perhaps, 75 per cent. at fault and accordingly found his damages reduced to £100, might like to say: "I will not take those damages. I prefer now to go back to what I would have had under the Workmen's Compensation Act." Provision is made under Section 3 whereby he is entitled to do that if the damages he is likely to recover or has recovered in the common law action are not high enough.

That would apply, in particular, to fatal cases. If a workman is killed in the course of his employment his widow and family together are entitled to £600 compensation. The dependents of the workman who is killed may still have a right to bring an action under the Fatal Accidents Act. By reason of the abolition, as proposed in this Bill, of the defence of contributory negligence and the reduction of the damages in such an action they might find that they were getting, say, £500 from a court whereas they would be entitled to £600 under the Workmen's Compensation Acts. In those circumstances, the Bill entitles them to say that they would prefer to retain their rights under the Workmen's Compensation Acts.

Section 4 provides that nothing in the Bill will interfere with or concern the present rule in relation to Admiralty cases—to collisions at sea. That is already dealt with under the MaritimeOffences Act, 1911. It also provided under Section 4 that the Act will not apply to any acts or omissions before the passing of the Bill into law.

It is proposed in Section 5 to bring about a slight amendment of the Tortfeasors Act, 1951. As the House is aware, the Tortfeasors Act, 1951, introduces the right of two people who were injury to another to halve contributions between them as to the damages they might have to pay to the injured party. That right of contribution and apportionment of damages is set out in Section 4 of the Tortfeasors Act of 1951. Sub-section (2) of Section 4 of that Act provides that no apportionment shall be made in any case under sub-section (1) unless the judge is satisfied that all persons liable as tortfeasors in respect of the injury are before the court. In practice, that particular sub-section has meant that the entire section has not been workable. The House will appreciate the position that would arise if, for example, there was a collision in this city between a C.I.E. omnibus and an ordinary motor vehicle, which might be driven by a chauffeur or some employee of the owner, and if a person travelling in the bus was injured and sued C.I.E. and the owner of the car that collided with the bus. Both of these vehicles would have been driven by employees of the owners. The C.I.E. bus would have been driven by a bus-driver and the motor car by some person other than the owner.

Nobody in his senses would bother about suing the two drivers but the two drivers are tortfeasors: they, in fact, brought about the injury. Under the Tortfeasors Act the court could not apportion in those circumstances unless all the persons liable as tortfeasors were before the court. In effect, that has meant that no apportionment has been possible. Section 5 of this Bill proposes to remedy that situation by providing that the court can, in those circumstances, apportion if it thinks fit or, if it prefers, may adjourn the question of apportionment.

I appreciate that certain opposition may be expressed to this Bill. Insurance companies may possibly, suggestthat this Bill will put them out of business. There will be that type of opposition but, in fact, there is nothing in it. Undoubtedly, more decrees will be given and more actions will be fought. More persons will recover compensation but the amounts of compensation will in many cases be far less. To-day where a person is injured in circumstances which might suggest a sharing of the fault, and the injuries are serious, it often means that the injured person is entitled to £10,000 or nothing. There is no in-between. The insurance company or the defendant face an award from a jury of £10,000 or, if they are lucky, they get away with nothing. Under this Bill it might mean in those circumstances that an award would be given but it would be substantially less. There may be more awards but I have no doubt that even the indemnifying companies will find that the decrees given will in the long run be far less.

It is always a good thing, in proposing a matter of this kind, to be able to point to experience elsewhere. Anybody who has any knowledge of the law courts in the Six Counties and in Britain will appreciate that the Contributory Negligence Act of 1945 has worked extremely well and has brought about a very beneficial result to this branch of the law. I have no doubt that the same result is desirable here and it can be achieved only by a method of law reform of this kind.

Earlier to-day we had a suggestion, which very properly came from the Opposition Benches that in the matter of bringing in amendments to existing Acts, some attempt should be made to bring all Acts into line so as, without perhaps going as far as codification, to tidy up legislation. If this Bill has any defect it is that it would have the effect of creating untidiness in legislation if it were put through. I am not suggesting for a moment that any of the amendments sought in the existing state of the law by the proposals in the Bill are not desirable. I do suggest seriously, however, that somehow the main provisionsin the Bill do not seem to hang together.

There are four main provisions in the Bill. The first deals with the apportionment of damages to a person who is plantiff in an action in a case where the plantiff himself may be negligent. As a result of that negligence, he would, under the existing law, be precluded from getting damages. Deputy O'Higgins has rightly pointed out that defect in our law, that, in respect of giving damages to a person who may be partially guilty of negligence in an action against a person guilty of negligence to a greater degree the damages which that person should get should, he suggests, be reduced to some extent rather than have him put out of court altogether.

Without meaning any discourtesy to the Parliamentary Secretary, could we be told by the Minister what is the Government's attitude to this Bill?

I shall speak later. I wanted to hear a little more of the debate before I intervened.

I was simply querying whether the Minister had requested the Parliamentary Secretary to tell the House what his view of the Bill was. We may take it that the Minister will come in later in the debate?

Mr. Boland

Yes.

Mr. Lynch

I want to say that I am speaking entirely independent of the Minister, except in one respect, that I saw on the desk in front of him what is obviously the English report of the law revision committee. I saw it in that way for the first time, and I asked the Minister to pass it to me, and he kindly did so.

Mr. Boland

This is a non-Party measure.

Mr. Lynch

I was making the point that there were four main provisions in the Bill, and I commented on the fact that Deputy O'Higgins had rightlyfocussed attention on the defect in our law to which I have referred. The second point that Deputy O'Higgins made was in connection with the workmen's compensation code. He said that if a person bringing an application finds that the damages he gets or is likely to get in a common law action is so much, he may have recourse to the workmen's compensation remedy. He may ask the court to award him, instead of common law damages, relief under the Workmen's Compensation Act—that is if he thinks that it may be greater than his relief at common law. He applies the same remedy to the dependents of a workman who may have been killed as the result of an accident in the course of his work.

The third major feature of the Bill is an amendment of the Tortfeasors Act of 1951 to which I propose to refer later. I am suggesting that here you have three different pieces of legislation thrown into one amending Bill, and that these would be far better dealt with within their own legislative sphere. I am suggesting, too, that this Bill would make the law, as we have it in our Statute Book, rather more unwieldy than it is.

The first major feature of the Bill is that Section 2 tends to apportion blame as between the plaintiff and the defendant in a common law action. I notice that such an amendment was brought into the British Statute Law. It followed the report of this law revision committee to which I have already referred. I see that they had on that committee members with such well-known legal names as the Right Hon. Sir D. Maxwell-Fyffe, the Right Hon. Lord Justice Romer, the Right Hon. Lord Justice Porter, the Right Hon. Lord Justice Goddard, and I presume other well-known members of the Senior Bar in England whose names are not familiar to me. It is obvious, judging by the calibre of the British Law Revision Committee, that this amendment, before it was introduced into the British statute law, must have received very careful consideration from the different interests concerned. You had, obviously, members of the bench whose opinions were consulted as well as members ofboth branches of the legal profession. I do not know to what extent judges and members of both branches of the legal profession here have been consulted, or at least have reported. I think this is a matter on which their opinions should be got. I am not suggesting for a moment that Deputy O'Higgins is not in a position to summarise for us what their opinions might be. I do suggest, however, that if we had the benefit of these opinions from the Minister, and subsequently the benefit of the Government's examination of them, we might perhaps get a more comprehensive Bill in so far as that aspect of it is concerned.

With regard to the suggestion for the inclusion of the workmen's compensation provision, the Deputy is aware that the Minister for Social Welfare has promised to bring in, in the very near future, a comprehensive revision of the workmen's compensation code I suggest that here is a provision which might be considered by the Minister for Social Welfare in bringing in his series of amendments. Personally, while I agree to some extent with the suggestion contained in Section 3, I am not at the same time satisfied that Deputy O'Higgins has properly and fully dealt with the subject.

I do not know whether it is right that the person who brings an application at common law, on finding that the amount of damages he may get at common law might be somewhat less or considerably less than he would get under the Workmen's Compensation Act, should be given the option of going for a remedy which will provide more damages. Generally speaking, I think it is a good idea that a person who has a right of action should get as much damages as the law can provide for him but I think it would require a great deal of consideration as to whether or not he might be allowed to proceed under what I consider a rather haphazard provision in an amendment to the workmen's compensation code in a Bill entitled the Civil Liability Bill, 1952.

Coming to the other major provisions, the amendment of the Tortfeasors Act, 1951, I did happen to read, to refresh my memory, Section 4 ofthe Tortfeasors Act, 1951, and I can see that there is an obvious case for remedying there; that it is quite possible, whether advisedly or by accident, a plaintiff may omit to name a person as a defendant to a suit who, the evidence discloses, should obviously have been named as a defendant and, therefore, if there is to be any apportionment of damages as between defendants, it is only right that all the defendants should be named and should be available to the Court or to the jury whose function it is to apportion damages between them.

The thing that occurs to me immediately in regard to the amendment here is, at what time does the Deputy consider that the missing party, the absent defendant, should be brought in as a party to the suit? If all the evidence has been heard against possibly only one or two named defendants and the court decides that perhaps there is another party, the driver of another car, perhaps, or another pedestrian, who, the evidence discloses, has had some responsibility for a particular accident, at what stage could he be brought in and be made liable in damages to a plantiff? I suggest to Deputy O'Higgins that it would be unfair that a third party, or a fourth party, even, should be brought in at a stage when all the evidence has been heard and he is being brought in only for the purpose of having damages assessed to satisfy the plaintiff's claim. He should be given the same opportunity of defending himself as any of the other two or three named defendants. I suggest that here is an obvious case where more consideration should be given to the amendment.

I agree entirely that the amendment is necessary but I suggest that, in order to tie up this amendment properly, more consideration should be given as to the point of time that the other defendant should be brought in in order to be saddled with a portion of the damages to which the court may have already decided the plaintiff was entitled. At what stage does the Deputy suggest it should be done under this particular amendment? As far asI can see it, the court can bring in this other defendant at a stage when the court is about to assess damages and at a stage when that other defendant may not be given an opportunity of putting in evidence in relief of his own obligation and liability. I suggest to the Deputy that the possibility of a defendant finding himself at a grave disadvantage arises under the provision as it is at present drafted and, therefore, that it requires further consideration.

In all the circumstances, I think Deputy O'Higgins is to be commended for bringing these matters before the House. I do not see that there is any case against the principle of two of the amendments, that is, the amendment contained in Section 2 and that contained in Section 5. The workmen's compensation provision, I think, requires much more detailed examination than appears to have been given by Deputy O'Higgins and I think also that perhaps Section 2 requires far more detailed examination. From the very drafting of it, there is no doubt that Section 5, that is, the amendment of the Tortfeasors Act, requires considerably more examination than appears to have been given.

I do not know what attitude the Minister will take but I believe that the Government have not had an opportunity of considering this Bill and all the implications of it.

Mr. O'Higgins

They have had an opportunity.

Mr. Lynch

They have not done it, at any rate.

That is another story.

Mr. Lynch

I did ask the Minister what the Government had decided and he said they had not considered it. Whether they had the opportunity or not, they have not done it. I have pointed out instances where it requires much more examination than it appears to have got. There are obvious defects to be remedied and there are obvious defects in the measure itself that require more detailed examination.

I commend the spirit of the amendments to the Minister and await hearingwhat he has to say as to his attitude.

Mr. Boland

Perhaps it would help if I say something now?

It would help greatly, I think.

Mr. Boland

The first thing that strikes me about this Bill and another Bill in the name of Deputy Dillon, that is, the Fatal Accidents (Amendment) Bill and also the Public Authorities (Judicial Proceedings) Bill, is that they are the sort of measures that ought to have been considered by a law reform committee.

Was it not such a committee that considered the Tortfeasors Act, 1951?

Mr. Boland

It was not. I was coming to that. When we were leaving office before, we were just on the point of appointing a law reform committee. The whole idea was to get the advice of judges and the two branches of the legal profession as to what reform of the law was necessary. I know that Deputy O'Higgins was interested. I asked a few questions while in opposition as to what had become of that. It took me a long time to get through all the preliminary work of setting up that committee. The ex-Ministers will know the difficulties about staffing arrangements. We had gone through all that when the change of Government came about and it was let drop. I think it was a great pity. I do not want to put any blame. If we had that committee, there would not be the same necessity as there is now for me to take the attitude that I am going to take on this particular Bill.

It is quite evident from the two speeches that have been made that it is a complicated measure and that the Act passed in England was passed only after it had received great consideration by a law reform committee there. The Parliamentary Secretary has given some of the names and it is quite clear that it was only as a result of investigation by that body that the British Parliament passed that Act.

It may be that circumstances here arethe same as they are in England but I do not think they are quite the same. It would not be proper, I believe, for us to rush into legislation without having had the advice and views of these bodies. I know that at least one of the legal bodies has expressed a wish to give their views on this Bill already. I have a letter here. They certainly have views and would like to get an opportunity of expressing them. That is the first thing.

I do not feel that I should bring the matter before the Government without being fortified by the opinions of these bodies. I think that is a fair position. Therefore I cannot advise the House to pass the Second Reading of the Bill, although I am not opposed to the principle of it, until we have had the benefit of the advice of these bodies We will have to ask them separately, whereas if we had this law reform committee working a lot of measures of this kind I am sure would have been put on the Statute Book. They would have been properly considered and brought before the House. We would have had the advice of these people and come to our own decisions, having full regard to the advice given to us. I also think that it would be better if the three Acts were not included in this Bill for amendment. It would be better to amend the Tortfeasors Act by itself rather than to amend it by this Bill. I have not brought this matter before the Government and naturally I cannot commit the Government to any legislation which they have not bad an opportunity of considering. I do not see any chance of having that considered for some time. I would not be prepared to bring the matter before the Government until I had it properly examined.

There is also the non-legal aspect of it, how it might affect insurance companies and others. I do not know to what extent it will affect them. I should like to have the views of all these interests before bringing the matter before the Government, although I am not suggesting that what is proposed in the Bill is not desirable. I suggest that the Deputy should do what Deputy Dillon did in the case of the Public Bodies (Protection) Billwhich he brought in, namely, not to proceed with the Second Reading now but allow it to stand on the Order Paper and in due course I will try to get the views of the judges and the legal bodies concerned. That is the position in which I am at present. Even if I were in full agreement with the Bill, I am sure it will be admitted that it would not be proper for me to try to commit the Government without giving them an opportunity of considering it. Even if it were not necessary to consult these other bodies, I do not see much chance for some time of bringing it before the Government because the Government programme is very full and I could not get proper consideration of it.

I should like to know what the view of the Opposition is. I will make another effort and ask the Government to set up a law reform committee again. But there is not much good in doing that if, after a short time or a long time, whichever it may be, it is to be thrown over because this Government set it up. It would be a pity if that were done. It was done before.

Mr. Boland

It was done before. The chairman and the personnel were selected, but it was held up for a certain time. It was held up over the question of the secretary which was being discussed with the Department of Finance.

Mr. O'Higgins

This is the first time I heard that complaint made.

Mr. Boland

I can assure the Deputy that that is the case. I raised it when the Tortfeasors Bill was brought in here by Deputy Costello when he was in opposition before. The principle of it was accepted. We brought it to a special committee and I know that we put it back until this law reform committee would have an opportunity of considering it. As I say, it took time to do that. By the time we had everything ready, the Government went out of office.

Mr. O'Higgins

That Bill was first introduced in 1941 and the Minister'sGovernment left office in 1948—seven years afterwards.

Mr. Boland

I do not want to put the blame on anybody. Deputy Costello agreed that it was not adequate to deal with the things he had in mind, that it would require a more comprehensive Bill. He was to come in and help but he found he had not the time to do it. That took a lot of time. I told him I was not prepared to bring in the Bill until we got the law reform committee to express its views on it. There were several other Bills of the same kind. That was the cause of the delay. I do not say that in any carping spirit. I will try to get the Government to set up the law reform committee, and if we succeed this time I hope it will be left to them.

This Bill introduced by Deputy O'Higgins has many things to commend it. The first thing to commend it is the fact that it has been brought in at all. The second is that Deputy O'Higgins made a very reasonable case in regard to it. He has set out the law as it is in operation and made his suggestions for improvement. I personally do not think that it is any great defect in the Bill that it seeks to amend a number of Acts. I do not think it is necessary that we should have what Deputy Lynch referred to as "this tidying up." I am not at all in agreement with the idea that we must have matters such as this considered by a law reform committee, because the peculiar thing about a committee of judges such as the Minister has in mind——

Mr. Boland

They would not all be judges.

I know that. A committee on which there will be judges will do anything except reform the law. They are quite satisfied that the law is all right, and they can make a great case for leaving the law as it is. It is an extraordinary fact that this State, 30 years ago, was a great Republican State, that we were very anxious to bring about reforms of allkinds when we got the opportunity, and yet we have lagged disgracefully behind the British Parliament, which has brought in all kinds of law reforms. The law of property was reformed out of all recognition a quarter of a century ago while we have done nothing about it. The setting up of a law reform committee consisting in the main of judges will, in my view, prevent any reform at all. It is extraordinary how conservative we are and how we dislike any change.

The fear of change is the greatest obstacle to progress.

We fear all sorts of changes. We had a perfect example of that recently when the Defence Bill was before the House. There is a section in it dealing with the inspector-general. Nobody could give any reason why that section should be there. The Minister could not justify it. He said: "I cannot give any reason why it should be there, but leave it there." That is the tradition in relation to law, leave things as they are.

The Tortfeasors Bill of 1951 has been mentioned. I understand that Bill was recommended to the House by a form of committee set up either under the chairmanship or with the authority of the Attorney-General at the time. As Deputy O'Higgins pointed out to-day, it had within it a most obvious defect. The fact that the Bill came before the House recommended by a committee may mean that Deputies did not examine it as closely as they should have examined it.

If we are to have a law reform committee I think it ought to be a committee of Deputies and of ordinary people who can very often see that, as they say, the law is an ass and should be changed. People who are operating within the law and in the routine of the law are inclined to think that everything in the garden is lovely and things should be allowed to continue as they are.

There are quite a number of good things in this Bill. There ought to be no trouble about the main part of the Bill which has been in operation in England since 1945. There are defectsin regard to the Tortfeasors Bill and the Workmen's Compensation Act. There could be differences of opinion as to the proper machinery and as to whether the two people left out should be covered. In connection with the Workmen's Compensation Act there is scope for considerable disagreement. But the main aspect of the Bill should present no difficulty and the other matters to which I have referred could be disposed of simply enough. Similar provisions have been operating successfully in England and in the North of Ireland for the last eight years and we should have no difficulty in accepting that part of the present Bill.

We will never get anywhere if we insist on a law reform committee consisting of judges, representatives of the Bar and representatives of the solicitors' profession. The odd thing is that the people who would represent these bodies on such committee might not represent the views of the majority of the members of the organisation to which they belong. That is one of our difficulties. Where we have an opportunity of making an amendment in the law, as we have here, that should be considered by a committee of this House. We have had some experience of such committees. Such committees have been under a certain amount of examination and criticism recently. Such a committee is a good thing provided the members attend the meetings and play their part. If they do not do that the value of the committee is considerably lessened.

If the House were to accept the major principles in this Bill and the major part of it, then the matter could be considered by a special committee. If that committee were of the opinion that the workmen's compensation amendment should come in the Workmen's Compensation Act by a special Bill and that the provision for amending the Tortfeasors Bill would be better in a special Bill of its own, these particular sections could be removed. A law reform committee is nothing more than putting matters on a very long finger. It is a peculiarity about law that expedition is not a feature of it. Perhaps we do not need too much expedition but there should be some reasonable degree of expedition.I think it is a reflection that we who call ourselves republican should lag so far behind the nation with which we were hitherto associated and which we look upon as imperialist and conservative. That nation is miles ahead of us in relation to law reform. In Britain to-day they are succeeding to a great extent in making the machinery of justice what it ought to be from the point of view of giving fair play as between man and man. We are not even trotting behind them. We are staggering behind them. Apparently we have no desire to progress.

I would not commit myself to the machinery in certain sections of the present Bill, but I agree with the main principle of the Bill, and I would rather see it go before a Special Committee of this House rather than condemn it to the limbo of a law reform committee.

Perhaps some Deputies are tired, but even if a Deputy is tired there is no reason why he should be bad-mannered, deliberately yawning when another Deputy is speaking. I am not responsible for the bad manners of Deputy Dillon, but I think it is the grossest discourtesy for a Deputy to be deliberately yawning when another member is speaking. It is not only when I am speaking that we have these offensive, ill-mannered yawns. It also happens when other Deputies are speaking.

God help the poor manneen.

Of course I am foolish, because no amount of suggestion can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

The tone of this debate becomes more elevated every moment.

Mr. Boland

I would like Deputy Cowan to know that I did not suggest that this particular Bill should be sent to this committee. I hope he understood that.

I understand the Minister wants the general thing accepted by the law reform committee.I think the Minister should agree to allow this to go to a Special Committee of the House to be considered.

Mr. Boland

Unfortunately, as I have said, when a matter like this comes up for legislation the Government must be consulted. I want to make it clear that I am not against it. I agree with all the speakers but I cannot proceed until I get an opportunity of bringing it before the Government.

I want to say briefly that I am in favour of the legislation proposed in this Bill. It is long overdue. Every side of the House recognises the need for legislation of this nature. The Minister mentioned that it was intended that a law reform committee should deal with this Bill. There was, of course, other legislation to be dealt with by the law reform committee besides this Tortfeasors Bill. If we look back over the last two years we will see that, without the law reform committee, several laws have been reformed. That, I think, is a good argument to offset the excuse that the law reform committee should have been set up in order to deal with this particular legislation.

The real value of this proposed legislation would be that it would make the existing laws more flexible. The laws which it proposes to amend are in many cases more than 100 years in existence. They were framed at that time probably in very different circumstances and although they have applied in a general way to the needs of the present day, amendments are needed. That is why a Bill of this nature deserves to be made law as soon as possible.

I would like to see some amendments of the legislation carried out soon instead of putting them on the long finger. Legislation like this in a general way is being operated in Great Britain also. Of course, the Tortfeasors Act in Great Britain applies to a number of different Acts but applies also to a number of Acts which this Bill is designed to amend.

We know that our present system of compensation is often directed by the jury system and juries are faced withthe need either of making a positive or negative decision. They cannot make a decision which would go some of the way in both directions so far as liability is concerned, the degree of liability and the degree of contributory negligence. This Bill is designed to guide juries in assessing scales of compensation. We have often seen ourselves that the amount of damages awarded by juries appeared to be fantastic. They have no option but to award these damages when they are not left the discretion of applying the principle of contributory negligence and reducing the scale of damages accordingly. I have nothing further to add except in regard to the Workmen's Compensation Act and even that amendment in this Bill appears to be reasonable. I believe even if the Workmen's Compensation Act were to be amended at a later date, as was mentioned by the Parliamentary Secretary earlier to-night, it could be amended in order to fit the new circumstances. In the interests of all the people concerned and particularly those who at the present time are forced to pay very high damages when in fact there is a question of contributory negligence existing, I feel that in fairness to them legislation that would bring in that measure of moderation should be brought in as soon as possible. It would be fairer to everybody concerned. It would be fairer to those who have to pay the compensation and it would be fairer to those who receive it.

The maddening thing about this kind of discussion is the further it goes on the more hopelessly everybody seems to get into a mess. Where are we now? What is going to happen? The only thing we are certain of is that nothing is going to happen. That is what is so utterly maddening about any attempt on the part of a Deputy in this House to undertake the work of amending the statute law for the purpose of bringing it into line with what is generally admitted to be the desired form. Everybody says: "Yes, we agree in principle with this Bill, but you cannot do this; you cannot do that and you cannot do the other thing." If the Minister would say: "I will come back tothe House within a month and tell the House that the Government proposes to send this Bill to a Special Committee of the House"; "that the Government proposes to send this Bill to the Attorney-General"; or "that the Government proposes to ask the House to reject the Bill" you might know where you were, and you would feel your attempts were not being dissipated. It is maddening to feel yourself being sucked into the bog—with which I am so familiar—of bureaucratic frustration in which everybody is static; when that stage is reached we move on to the next business and everyone hopes and prays that no more will be heard of this disturbing matter. What makes me frantic with impatience is when I hear a fraudulent person like Deputy Cowan mumbling and bumbling——

Mr. Boland

I do not think that is a very parliamentary remark.

If anybody takes the slightest exception to it I withdraw it.

Mr. Boland

It should be unreservedly withdrawn. The Deputy should have no privileges.

The word is withdrawn.

Mr. Boland

It is withdrawn with reservations. I submit that the Deputy should not be allowed to continue until that remark is properly withdrawn.

It is withdrawn. Sit down. Since the Minister wants to take that line, the Minister rambles in here to tell us he had set up a law reform committee and that on his leaving office this great work to which he put his hand was shattered. What has the Minister been doing for the last two years?

Mr. Boland

What was the Deputy doing for three years?

A decision of policy was taken when we came into office and these matters were referred to the Attorney-General. That decision did not commend itself to the present Minister when the present Minister resumed in June, 1951. What has he been hatching on since? He said hehad the names of the members of the law reform committee. He said he had the secretary chosen.

Mr. Boland

I had at the time.

What has he been doing since June, 1951? Hatching on his own proposal which he says he greatly deplores his successor in office had abandoned. He said repeatedly that during the three years he was in opposition he inquired as to why his committee and his design had been departed from. He has not introduced a single piece of legislation since he returned to office in 1951.

Mr. Boland

I do not think that is correct.

Let him disprove it if he can. He has been sitting in Government Buildings, but what has he been doing? He had power to revive that committee if he wanted to. He could have revived this committee within a week of coming back, but he preferred to have this glorious alibi for doing nothing. If he had set up that committee the personnel of which he had, the secretariat of which he had, and the approval of the Minister for Finance for which he had, all this legislation which has been submitted to him could have been referred to that committee and these matters could have been under consideration for the last 18 months, but he preferred to have this very good alibi, and in effect he says to the House: "I would like to have a further and better opinion on this Bill. If there was a committee in being I would refer it to them. I did not bother bringing it before the Government as I think I first ought to get advice which I am not in a position to get at the moment." The net result is that we are just back where we started. Is it not time that we determined that matters of that sort should be dealt with within a reasonable time? Such matters could have been dealt with by the Attorney-General in his Department. That policy may not have pleased the present Minister but that was our policy and we operatedthat policy. The Minister had a diametrically opposite policy—to set up a law reform committee. Where is it? We have waited practically for two years to bring this into operation. Are we to wait another two years? If the Minister meant business in regard to the proposals that were made to him —they were made to him with the desire, let me say, to help—he would have taken some measures to have them examined on their merits, and not ramble in here merely to indicate that he is not able to say "yea" or "nay" or that he is not yet in a position to ask the Government what they think about these Bills. We have given ample evidence of our desire to be of assistance and of our desire not to press the Minister unduly, when the matters we submitted for consideration required longer and better consideration. Remember this is the second or third Bill submitted.

Mr. Boland

It is not the third one.

It is the second one. The Minister said that it had not been before the Government although it has been in his hands for months or at least weeks. Does the Minister think that a courteous or civil attitude? These are matters which should normally be attended to by the Government but the Government's programme is already overloaded. What is the purpose of Private Deputies' time except to make it possible to do this type of business outside an already overloaded Government programme? When Deputies forgo their opportunity to take abstract motions in Private Deputies' time, in order to bring forward legislative proposals which may be implemented outside the Government programme, would you not imagine that the Minister would show some kind of appreciation for our efforts to fit in to Private Members' time business which more properly might be brought within the time available for Government business? Would the Minister tell the House with some degree of precision what is going to happen about this Bill? Will he move for its rejection, will he send it to a committee ad hocof this House, a committeead hocof legal officers, will he send it to the Attorney-General orwill he undertake to name a date on which he will be able to tell the House what he intends to do?

Mr. Boland

I think I told the Deputy already.

The Minister has recommended that the debate should be adjourned. All I want the Minister to say is, "I bind myself in a month or three months to say in respect of this Bill that the law reform committee is functioning and that I will refer it to them" or that "I have set up an ad hoccommittee and I am going to refer it to them” or that “I am going to set up a Special Committee of this House to which we can send the Bill after passing its Second Reading” or “I am going to ask the House to reject the Bill because I think I can bring forward a better proposal.”

Mr. Boland

I think I have already dealt with that.

What is the Minister's view?

Mr. Boland

I have already said that there are certain people whom I should like to consult before I agree to accept this Bill. After I have done that, I shall put the measure to the Government. I also said that I was favourable to the measure myself but I am not in a position to commit the Government to this proposed legislation until the Government has an opportunity of considering it. The programme at the moment is somewhat overloaded, therefore I cannot name the exact day or month on which I shall be able to announce the Government decision. I can say that in respect to the other Bill, the Local Authorities Bill, I am in a position to send a memorandum and I hope that there will be no undue delay in doing the same with this Bill. I have got however, to ascertain the opinions of various people whom I mentioned and perhaps of the insurance companies and others affected. Then when I have a proper view of what the repercussions of this measure may be, I shall bring it to the Government. I have no intention of delaying.

This is the month ofFebruary and I take it that before the summer recess, though not necessarily then, the Minister will be in a position to inform the House definitely of the course to be taken in this matter. I cannot speak for Deputy O'Higgins but so far as I am concerned that would be fair enough. The Minister knows that he will be in a much stronger position if he can say to the Government secretariat: "I have a time limit up to the adjournment of the Dáil for the Summer Recess within which I want to tell the House what we are doing with regard to this Bill."

Mr. Boland

I shall try to give the House an answer, whether it be for or against, as soon as possible but I shall not undertake to give it by any definite date. How soon it will be I cannot say. I shall not unduly delay but I am not going to tie myself to any month or months.

Would the Minister be able to say before the summer recess?

Mr. Boland

I hope so but I cannot be certain. I realise that these things should be done as well as everybody else.

Mr. O'Higgins

I appreciate, of course, the Minister's position, and naturally no one would suggest that the Minister should agree to a legislative proposal without consulting the Government and all persons and bodies affected. At the same time I hope the Minister, who has himself been a private Deputy on this side of the House, will appreciate my position and that of other Deputies interested in the Bill. We have gone to some trouble in putting down this legislative proposal and from my point of view I should like to have some guarantee that, if the Second Reading is adjourned, the Bill is not going to be committed to the limbo of forgotten things.

Mr. Boland

It is not.

Mr. O'Higgins

I want to be fair to the Minister. The Minister's present intention is that it will not. The Minister is a member of the Government and must act as the Government decides he must act. I do not mean to be offensive but, no matter what hehimself thinks, he must do what he is told. I should like if the House would agree to adjourn the Second Reading of the Bill to some time, say six months from now, so that it will in any event come back on the Order Paper and an opportunity will be given for a decision by the Minister. Otherwise I, as an ordinary Deputy, would have no redress.

Mr. Boland

I think that is reasonable. I appreciate the work that has been done in bringing these matters before the House and I am personally glad of it. I shall not go any further at the present stage.

The debate can stand adjourned and the Bill will remain on the Order Paper.

Mr. O'Higgins

I understand that after the Vote on Account is taken, there will be no Private Members' time allowed. Supposing in the month of July we were about to rise for the summer and nothing happened in regard to the Bill, how would the question be raised?

Mr. Boland

Once you start the finance business it is a problem to know what course the proceedings will take, but there will be ample time I take it to raise the question in the way the Deputy has mentioned. I hope to be in a position, D.V., about the autumn session to make an announcement with regard to it.

The debate can be adjourned and the matter will appear on the Order Paper every Wednesday and Friday.

If the Minister is in a position before the Adjournment in July to indicate if any positive action has been taken will he be able to avail of an opportunity to make a statement?

Mr. Boland

I could be asked a question on the matter and I will be able to make some announcement.

Debate adjourned..
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