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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 26 Feb 1953

Vol. 136 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Grass Meal (Production) Bill, 1952— Money Resolution.

I move:—

That, for the purpose of any Act of the present session to authorise the Minister for Industry and Commerce to promote a limited company for the acquisition, drainage and cultivation of bogland in the Bangor-Erris area, the processing of grass and other plants and the carrying on of kindred and incidental activities and to provide for matters connected with the matters aforesaid, it is expedient to authorise:—

(a) the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of the expenses incurred by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in the administration of such Act;

(b) the payment to the company, by the Minister for Industry and Commerce out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of grants and loans authorised under such Act;

(c) the advance out of the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof of such moneys as may from time to time be required to meet payments in respect of shares subscribed for under such Act or to fulfil guarantees given by the Minister for Finance under such Act;

(d) the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of such sums as may be required to repay advances made under such Act from the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof;

(e) the charge upon and payment out of the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof of the principal of and interest on any securities issued for the purpose of borrowing under such Act.

I want to make certain submissions on the Money Resolution. I make them with special reference to the Money Resolution because the observations I wish to tender now have a very restricted relevance, and I desire to keep them within that narrow relevance for the purpose of the Resolution. In presenting this Bill, the Parliamentary Secretary told us of estimated costings which had been furnished to him and the estimated price at which the product of the grass meal plant might be marketed if the conditions obtaining now remained stable or any way near stable. I now submit to him that the costings which have been furnished to him bear little or no relation to the experience of people who have been engaged in this business for some time in this country. Personally, I can neither vouch for the Parliamentary Secretary's costings nor the costings I submit to him now. I am merely drawing his attention to this in case he should think it expedient to make further and better inquiries before proceeding with this enterprise.

I think he stated in the Dáil that he hoped to see grass meal produced in Bangor-Erris at about £22 7s. per ton. I am told that where the procedure has been mechanised to the highest possible degree on the best possible land obtainable for the growing of grass the lowest costing which has been achieved has been in the order of £25 6s. per ton. It has to be borne in mind that this costing was achieved in Great Britain where the price of fertilisers is much lower than here and where other costs may not be as high as they are here. It has been suggested by those experienced in the production of grass meal under our conditions that the cost will be in the order of £29 per ton.

I am obliged further to direct the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to the fact that he informed us that his best advice was that this product might sell at something between £31 and £34 per ton according to quality. I understand that before estimating the receipts of this enterprise from the grass meal one has to have regard to the experience of other vendors whohave found in practice that the average price realised by them during the year 1952 was £31 2s. per ton, from which they had to deduct £1 7s. per ton, leaving them a net revenue of £29 15s: I understand that persons who have been engaged in this business find that the domestic requirement of this commodity, which is mainly from compound feed manufacturers, does not absorb and cannot be hoped to absorb more than 7,000 tons annually, that other producers are in the position to produce 5,000 tons, that the addition of 4,000 tons per annum to the total supply will involve the necessity for exporting a considerable part of the total production of the Bangor-Erris plant, and that it is highly unlikely at the prices ruling in Great Britain or the United States of America that on these costings it will be possible to compete in either of these markets where the product is on sale at a price substantially less than our costings would suggest it is possible for us to accept with any prospect of success.

Lastly, I think all the facts that I now lay before the Parliamentary Secretary are already in the possession of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. While I do not, for a moment, question his good faith in this matter, I think it would have been somewhat more disingenuous if he had told us plainly and bluntly that these costings had been submitted to him and that he just did not accept them; that he preferred the calculations of the Sugar Company and Bord na Móna to the computations of those who have reported their experiences to him. I think he also had a duty to tell us on his own initiative that the advices he had received from the Department of Agriculture were of so sulphurous a character he thought it better to ignore them.

I really wish to see any enterprise to which the Parliamentary Secretary puts his hand in the general sphere of his activities meet with success. I would be sorry to see an enterprise of this kind initiated in Bangor-Erris with the best intentions in the world, subsequently folding up simply because it could not pay its way. I would prefer to see it continue as a fifth alcohol factory which makes one's heart turnover every time one looks at it. I would ask the House to remember that we already have in Ballycroy an alcohol factory. I do not know what the cost of the production of industrial alcohol is at the moment, but I would remind the House that on the last occasion on which I had an opportunity of knowing what the cost is we would have saved a substantial sum of money per annum if, instead of operating the alcohol factory, we had blown it up, dumped all the potatoes in the Atlantic Ocean and paid the wages of the employees in full in perpetuity.

Let us not initiate in the Gaeltacht another enterprise of that kind. We must bear in mind that the Parliamentary Secretary has said that in dwelling on the costings of this enterprise, we must have regard not only to grass but to certain other crops to which they may ultimately put their hand. One of these is peppermint for the extraction of oil. I think he told us that in large areas of the United States of America this crop has practically perished as a result of disease. I have no reason to believe that such diseases are endemic here but I am bound to tell the House that while I was Minister for Agriculture two or three entrepreneursapproached the Department to seek our encouragement for the launching of such enterprises. Acting on the advice of those qualified to advise me, I was bound to say to each of these that while the Department would be anxious to help them in any way it could, no encouragement for the prosecution of such enterprises could be given since past experience had proved that attempts to grow these oil-bearing crops, such as lavender, peppermint, linseed and so on, had not been attended with any substantial degree of success.

Our experience notwithstanding, most of these crops have been tried in England. Apart from some small operators, who have never shown any evidence of developing into millionaires, as one would expect them to do since they enjoy a monopoly of an immensely valuable market, there has been no large-scale success in the cultivation of these crops in Great Britain so far as I can recollect. I do not knowif these facts have been brought to the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary, but I think he ought to examine them closely and, in justifying this Financial Resolution to the House, reassure us that he has examined the submissions and, having weighed them to the best of his ability, is determined on the merits to disregard them.

On the previous occasion when this matter was under discussion I was unavoidably absent. I would like to take this opportunity of welcoming the Bill and I assure the Parliamentary Secretary that I will co-operate in any way I can in the implementation of this measure. Those of us who know North Mayo know that it is necessary to formulate schemes for this area because of the considerable number of unemployed. I sincerely hope this experiment will bear fruit. It would be indeed disastrous, as Deputy Dillon has said, if it should prove to be a failure.

I appreciate that a considerable sum of money is involved. On behalf of the people of Mayo I want to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for having selected Bangor-Erris as the area of operations. I am not as competent as Deputy Dillon to judge the merits or demerits of this undertaking. He has, apparently, gone into the matter very thoroughly. He has, of course, an advantage over ordinary Deputies since he has had long experience of public life, experience as a Minister for Agriculture and as a businessman. I am sure his criticism is worthy of consideration.

It is always a good thing to take into account the possibility of an export market for any commodity produced here. Within the confines of the State itself there is a limited market. For the first two or three years it is only to be expected that production will be slow. I hope that after that period the project will be worked to its fullest extent and that it will prove successful.

I think the House should have some more detail than has been given so far by the Parliamentary Secretary. He was somewhat vague in outlining the proposed scheme. Many people are in doubt as to what exactly the scheme is.

Some of the people in the area have had dealings with the Forestry Branch of the Department of Lands in connection with the acquisition of land. They have also had dealings with Bord na Móna in that connection. Most of them are very critical of the manner in which they have been treated by these bodies with particular reference to the payment made for land acquired from them.

I sincerely hope the Parliamentary Secretary will take this seriously into consideration when he is acquiring land. While many of these places may not look a whole lot to his experts they are homes and places to which people can return from foreign countries and spend a period of the year. I would ask him also to consider in a very particular way, if he is acquiring land, taking steps to see that people are suitably compensated and that payment will be made much faster by expediting the work of the various Departments I mentioned.

If Deputy O'Hara had been here on the last occasion he would know that the main criticism of this provision was that it was a scheme that had comparatively little labour content in it for the amount of money being spent and that other schemes, with the provision of the same amount of money, could have produced a far greater labour content. I know that the Parliamentary Secretary said on the last occasion that the capital content was estimated at £165,000. I want to get some breakdown of that figure from him. I want to know how that £165,000 is to be divided.

Mr. Lynch

It might be more appropriate to discuss it on Section 13.

I think the Money Resolution is the more appropriate section on which to discuss it. Section 13 deals only with the free grant of funds to the company. There are two different things involved. There is, first of all, the reclamation and cultivation of bogland and, secondly, the production of grass meal. As I see it, if I left my discussion to Section 13 I might be restricted purely to thesecond portion, whereas I want to get the two as an integrated whole.

As far as I can find out, the estimates that were given on the last occasion by the Parliamentary Secretary are miles away from the correct position. The Parliamentary Secretary indicated that we will start on a basis of 2,000 acres. Let us get some facts on that. No. 1, what does he estimate that will cost and, No. 2, what figure will he put in for the drainage of that amount? When he has got his bog drained so that something can be done with it, he will have to decide how to utilise it. I do not necessarily mean how he will utilise it from the point of view of grass meal or otherwise, but whether he is going to utilise the whole 2,000 acres for the same purpose at the same time. If he is, then he will want to fence off that 2,000 acres and there will only be the cost of fencing one block of 2,000 acres. But if, as I anticipate, he cannot possibly utilise the whole lot of that area that he has bought in the same way at the same time, then he must provide in his capital cost for the cost of fencing not merely the block as a whole, but the block into the individual sections.

Deputy Dillon made the point here on the Second Stage that the climate of Bangor-Erris was such that you could not possibly hope to graze this reclaimed bogland in the winter. I presume, therefore, that what you would have to do is to strip graze in some shape or form in the summer. What would be the cost of fencing in respect of that?

When you have got as far as that you must apply the initial dressing of artificial manures. What initial dressing per acre does the Parliamentary Secretary propose? What dressing of lime does he propose? What dressing of fertilisers does he propose? What is the cost for that and what is the cost of spreading it? When all that is done, when the bog is made fit for growing something, how does he propose to cultivate it? What does he propose to sow in it and what is the cost for so doing? All that will be the cost initially of getting something on this particular 2,000 acres of bog.

Apart from that, which I mightperhaps call the fixed bog cost, you will have very substantial costs in regard to equipment. What type of equipment, very roughly, will be bought? Approximately, what will it cost? When we get all that we will have an opportunity of seeing at that stage what the annual labour expenditure will be. I venture to suggest that in the capital outlay that is concerned I imagine, from what the Parliamentary Secretary said on the last occasion, it will take perhaps a couple of years. There may be a certain number of people employed for those two years and once the capital money is spent we will consider the annual employment. So far as I can recollect, the Parliamentary Secretary admitted the last time that a fair labour content was about £1 per ton. That means that the sole permanent employment value of this scheme will be a sum of £4,000 per annum.

Deputy Dillon's suggestion for utilising the fund would produce a far better employment content that £4,000 per annum. I am afraid that when the people of Bangor-Erris realise how little there will be by way of employment content in this scheme they will realise they have, to a great extent, on the employment end of it, been sold a pup.

Mr. Lynch

I do not want to anticipate the discussion on the different sections in Committee but I will endeavour to meet the questions that have been asked by Deputies Dillon, O'Hara and Sweetman. First of all, I take it that Deputy Dillon's sources of information are the same as mine, a certain association connected with the drying and production of grass meal. The type of activity envisaged at Bangor-Erris bog is not of the same type as is being carried out by the members of this particular association. They are growing grass and drying grass grown on good land and producing grass meal.

They have no experience of the reclamation of bogland and the cultivation of it for the purpose of growing grass. Nevertheless, I have had some conversations with the representatives of the association, and I am sure they will inform Deputy Dillan that I havebeen very frank with them on each occasion on which they approached me. They were not as an association consulted by me on behalf of the Government. However, so far as I had the figures, I made them very readily available to the representatives of that association on each occasion they did come. I cannot recollect the word being used by the person who spoke to me as the word "unrealistic", and I cannot say whether he agreed with my figures. As it was a casual conversation I forget what the actual terms of his reply were. Nevertheless, I submit that the figures I quoted, in relation to the figures supplied by Deputy Dillon or supplied by the association to Deputy Dillon as he announced them here, are not in the least unrealistic. I mentioned a figure on the last occasion of £22 7s. per ton as the cost of production of grass meal at the plant.

What is the protein content?

Mr. Lynch

That is going into some detail.

It is the absolute basis of the whole figure.

Mr. Lynch

I am advised that the protein content is very high having regard to ordinary grass.

At what protein content?

Mr. Lynch

I shall look into that later on.

It is very hard to know what the protein content is going to be until you dry the grass.

Mr. Lynch

In any case, to deal with the point made by Deputy Dillon, at the behest of the association, and the £22 7s.——

Do I understand the Parliamentary Secretary to say that I have given figures at the behest of the association?

Mr. Lynch

Well, perhaps at the instance of the association.

No. The figures were brought to me and I thought it rightto bring them to the notice of the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Lynch

Then it was done out of the Deputy's sense of duty.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary agree——

Mr. Lynch

I do not make any point in regard to the word "behest". It was probably ill-chosen. However, the figure quoted by me here was £22 7s. That is the figure I used on the Second Stage of the Bill. The figure which the Deputy quoted, as being more realistic, as the cost of production per ton was £29 10s. or £29 15s. To the £22 7s. must be added the cost of pelleting and bagging. That would add to the cost pretty substantially— at least £2 per ton. I take it the cost of £29 10s. quoted by Deputy Dillon is the cost of bagged grass meal. Therefore, I suggest that, in the light of these figures, the actual figures quoted by me are not unrealistic as compared with those quoted by Deputy Dillon. I understand the cost of bagging is pretty substantial. The cost I got was £22 7s. per ton, to which must be added the cost of bagging, which would bring it much nearer to the £29 quoted by Deputy Dillon as the realistic costs supplied to him.

As regards the question of a market, it is well to remember that, in 1948, which was the first year in which grass meal was produced commercially in this country, there were approximately only 650 tons produced, and, without any wide publicity campaign, that figure has been increased sevenfold between 1948 and 1952—to the extent of 4,000 tons produced last year, 1952. Therefore, while I respect the figures quoted by Deputy Dillon, the overall figures for feeding stuffs, I believe there is still ample scope for the production of grass meal as a constituent of feeding stuffs. I want to assure the Deputy, and to assure the association through him, that there is no suggestion whatever that the production of grass meal in Bangor-Erris is to be in competition or is intended to prejudice the present producers.

Upon my word, thatwould not worry me one bit. It is not worrying me that you are going to compete with them. What I am afraid of is that you will not be able to compete with them and that you will be sunk up to your neck in debt.

Mr. Lynch

There are other matters of detail which would probably bring the cost of production in Bangor-Erris much lower. There is, for instance, the utilisation of the fuel which is actually won in the drainage of the bog itself. The cost of drying to the present producers is very substantial, and I believe that the cost of drying in the Bangor-Erris project will be much less than under the present methods of production.

There is plenty of fuel available.

Mr. Lynch

Yes, plenty. With regard to the breakdown in the figures requested by Deputy Sweetman, the total capital outlay estimated for the project is £165,000.

Is there not another capital item of £100,000 as well?

Mr. Lynch

That is the share capital.

Are you not going to spend that?

Mr. Lynch

Yes, that will be spent. I am talking of the £165,000. It is estimated that the drainage of the bog, including the purchase of the necessary equipment, will cost £40,000. I was also asked what the cost of the initial fertilising and the initial sowings would be. The initial liming and fertilising costs are estimated at £24 per acre.

What dressings are estimated to be necessary?

Mr. Lynch

That is a matter for the company itself.

That must have been decided in order to calculate the figure of £24.

Mr. Lynch

The figure was arrived at on a fairly generous basis. The actual method of liming and fertilisingmust be an operational matter for the company themselves.

What I say is that you cannot decide what the fertilising cost is going to be until you know what you are going to spread.

Mr. Lynch

If the Deputy would allow me to continue, I shall give the figures and he can comment on them afterwards. I have said that the cost of liming and fertilising is estimated at £24 and the cost of first sowing cultivation is £4 per acre. The total is estimated to cost £56,000. Drying plant and equipment is expected to cost £43,000. These are the figures which Deputy Sweetman asked me to give at this stage.

You are not going to spend anything on fencing?

Mr. Lynch

The cost of fencing has been estimated at £4,000.

How many miles are involved?

Mr. Lynch

Ten miles.

Would a continuation of the drainage that is contemplated benefit other local farmers?

Mr. Lynch

That is going a bit outside this Bill. It is expected that there will be about ten miles of fencing at about £400 per mile. It is well to remember that the decision in regard to the methods that will be employed in respect of the actual development work is one for the company. I think it would be wrong for me either by provision in the Bill or by suggestion to tie the hands of the company. However, the estimates I have given are fairly liberal estimates in so far as we could get actual experience in draining, fertilising and producing grass on bog which is even worse than the bog we experienced anywhere else.

I would also like the House to remember that this is a purely experimental project for the purpose of winning bogland to make it productive. Deputy O'Hara well knows that there is plenty of bogland to be won in that area and the more we can win and put into a condition that will produce grassthe more satisfactory it will be for the people of the area and the country generally.

Hear, hear!

Mr. Lynch

Deputy Dillon commented upon the growing of other types of plants particularly in relation to the remarks I made with regard to the failure to grow these plants in part of America. I am informed by very good authority that even at the present time there is growing on bogland and other types of poor land in the West of Ireland very valuable plants capable of being distilled or otherwise processed to produce valuable commercial products used for medicinal and aromatic purposes generally.

I have positive evidence of a shepherd in Donegal or in one of those counties being paid by a person in Dublin at the rate of £1 sterling per 1 lb. avoirdupois for these plants growing wild on bogland. I am also advised that even with a little care and cultivation these type of plants can be made grow and made a very lucrative source of income for the people in those western areas.

I missed hearing the Parliamentary Secretary's figure for cultivation. He gave a figure.

Mr. Lynch

I gave the figure of £4 for the first sowing and cultivation.

Am I correct in taking the Parliamentary Secretary's figures to mean—leaving out the cost of the drying plant altogether—that the total cost of getting a crop of grass on the bog of 2,000 acres is £100,000? That is to say, £40,000 for the drainage of the bog; £4,000 for the fencing of it; £48,000 for liming and fertilising it and £8,000 for cultivating it. I think that makes a total of £100,000 exclusive of purchase. Probably Bord na Móna pay in or around £1 per acre and, perhaps, £2 as a maximum.

Mr. Lynch

I know that Bord na Móna has acquired about 20,000 acres. Of that 20,000 acres at least 2,000 cannot profitably be used for the purpose of winning turf per seor generatingelectricity. It is the intention to lease that 2,000 acres from Bord na Móna at a nominal rent.

There is not any purchase figure in this at all?

In applying the ordinary rules of probability to human enterprise, does the Parliamentary Secretary honestly believe that there is a plant growing wild in the West of Ireland which can be readily marketed at £2,240 per ton avoirdupois which is still in the status of a weed in a country which is reputed to have one of the best Departments of Agriculture in the world, populated by a people who are understood to be as intelligent and as industrious as most known peoples of the world and in an area where the standard of living is no higher than the very limited resources of that area will produce? Would the Parliamentary Secretary find a single Deputy from any Party who represents a constituency west of the Shannon who shares his belief that there is growing wild in the Province of Connaught or Ulster a plant which can be readily and freely retailed at £2,240 per ton and that to date no living creature has even bothered to sow it? If that is the basis on which the Parliamentary Secretary has been persuaded to sponsor this financial resolution it makes me tremble to think of what we are embarking upon. I must confess to being somewhat shocked that if the Parliamentary Secretary was told by anybody that such a potential golconda existed he did not seek the advice or at least the opinion of the Department of Agriculture and communicate it to the House at the same time as he paints the picture, which I have no doubt has been reported to him, of this peripatetic thesis to pluck off the weeds of Donegal a crop worth £2,240 per ton and was left to garner that crop alone. If there was such a crop to be had in the West of Ireland the Klondike would be nothing compared to the stampede that would take place to it. What miner ever worked in the Klondike got a return proportionate to that? I exhort the ParliamentarySecretary that he had better be mighty careful because if his words are accepted there will be such an exodus from Dublin to the West of Ireland as will frighten the nation.

Mr. Lynch

I would not bother to reply to the last remark if I thought the Deputy was trying to ridicule what I said. On the evidence supplied to me there is such a plant growing. To carry the story further, there is in existence in Dublin a small company which grows and processes these type of plants. The demand that company has for its processed goods is far in excess of what they can fulfil. It was the pioneer of that process and of that company who gave me the information that he himself paid £1 sterling for one lb. weight for this type of plant.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary let us in on the secret? What is the name of this plant?

Mr. Lynch

It had a Latin name. I cannot remember. Possibly there were two or three different types of plant, but to strengthen my story, a friend of that particular gentleman, who also happens to be a friend of mine, got some advice from this skilled person, and on one day of his annual holidays in West Cork he brought his younger brother, who had some idea of the type of wild plants to look for, and they brought them back in a bag to County Dublin and he got £3 in money for his day's wandering.

I will meet Deputy Gilbride out on the hillsides again and we will make our fortunes.

It will be a grand thing to get you down there.

Mr. Lynch

It would be hard to deny the veracity of these statements.

I wish you would let me know the names of the plants.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary let us know whether the Sugar Company have embarked on a scheme for the growing of the type of plant he has now mentioned, in their experimental bog development scheme in Gowla? Is it not a fact that they are sowing that type of plant?

What is this plant? Does the Deputy know?

I cannot give you the name.

Can you get it?

I could get the name and I could get you the plant.

I would be delighted. And can one sell it at £1?

It is supposed to be more valuable than gold.

Then let us wind up the business here and get started. We have no time to lose, if this Klondike is to hand.

I have gone through the bog in question on several occasions, and I have watched the efforts of these plants to grow. The Sugar Company planted, say, an acre of a number of plants of the nature described by the Parliamentary Secretary, and after the first year they found that there was very little turnover. The agricultural expert there has definitely said that he believes that, with experience, he can increase the output of the plants in question. These plants are growing already in a wild state on various bogs in the country, but there is a snag attached to the collecting and it is this, that to collect a pound weight of this type of plant would take you considerably more than a day. There is no use in the House getting the impression that one can fly to some bog or mountainside in the West of Ireland and in a day collect even £1 worth of these plants. I know for a fact that some young fellows had the idea that Deputy Dillon has enunciated, that they could become rich overnight from the collection, but they gave it up after a day or two when they found they would make more money working a bog.

The actual commercial planting by the Sugar Company is likely to prove a success, and I would be the last to suggest that we should damn this venture in its initial stages, in view of the fact that the Sugar Company have taken the pioneer steps. What I would suggest to the ParliamentarySecretary is that he should consult with the Sugar Company and get the latest possible information from their experts on this type of plant he has mentioned.

He has done that, to give him credit. He is in close touch with the Sugar Company. When I was a child, there used to be a song about a little white hen and at the end of the song no one knew the name of the little white hen—the hen's name was Treminion—and if you did not discover it you suffered death and destruction. Everyone is telling you about this plant like Klondike gold, but no one can tell you the name. Surely someone must know the name of this goldmine?

Mr. Lynch

There are different names—such as spearmint, peppermint, digitalis——

That is the foxglove.

Mr. Lynch

All these are valuable.

If it is only foxglove, I am going to make no fortune. If the Minister could think up the name of the £1 plant, I would be glad to learn it—and I will share the information with Deputy Gilbride and we will take to the hills together.

In view of this extraordinary statement—I sincerely hope it is true in every detail—I would suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary try to get the name of this particular plant or weed and broadcast to the nation at a very early date in order to clear up the matter. I can visualise a situation where the farmers in the West of Ireland, who in the ordinary way are very hard-working men, will neglect tillage this year and go round the country hunting for this plant. If they were aware of the name or of the type of plant, maybe they would never be more profitably employed. I think it is a little like the leprechaun's crock of gold—they will be for ever trying to get hold of this plant and will not know what they are after. If the Parliamentary Secretary will inquire more into the matter and broadcast to the nation some night. It would be much appreciated.

Why broadcast to the nation? Why not go to Bangor-Erris, where it is to be found?

We might be losing time.

However, if the Parliamentary Secretary has been a little bit off in his prognostications, I am all for optimism and I am quite prepared to stand by his flank if he has to go a little further into it.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary show how he computed this £24 to the acre?

Mr. Lynch

I have not the details with me, but I went into it very closely at the time the figure was being prepared. I thought that would be sufficient for the Deputy.

The Deputy wants to see whether the figures are on a sound basis or not. Apart from the £100,000 for which we have now extracted the details, with difficulty, there must be some substantial cost each year in fertilisers, in depreciation and such things as will have no labour content. What annual figure is included for those things in the estimates that the Parliamentary Secretary has before him? What estimate has he got of the annual cost of keeping these two acres producing grass year after year, leaving aside the factory cost? I want to try and divide the bog cost from the factory cost. We feel on this side of the House that, so far as this scheme is concerned with the utilisation of bog, producing something that is usable from bog, it is a sound scheme; but where we think the Parliamentary Secretary has gone wrong is that, when he has got the bog producing, he is going to channel off the product in production that it is going to be difficult to sell and bad from a labour content point of view. The Parliamentary Secretary will realise that it is essential to get the breakdown between the cost on the bog and the drying cost.

Mr. Lynch

The annual cost of the type that the Deputy asks is £22,800.That includes fertilisers, re-seeding and the cutting and delivery of the crops of grass during the year.

Has the Parliamentary Secretary any idea of how much of that is for cutting? That would be the only labour content really involved.

Mr. Lynch

£5,200 per annum for cutting.

Has the Parliamentary Secretary any figures as to the amount of turf that will be required to fuel the silos?

That will be done by electricity.

Mr. Lynch

It is hoped that the actual drying will be done by turffired plant.

You are not going to use electric power?

Mr. Lynch

We will have to use electric power for the grinding plant and other machinery.

You are not going to dry by electric power?

Mr. Lynch

No.

Might I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should not rule out my suggestion that, in relation to this drainage project visualised under the scheme, he might consider a continuation of that drainage, if satisfied that it would be of benefit to the local farmers.

Mr. Lynch

The company is being set up with very limited powers, as it must be when it is being set up for a particular function like this, and it would not have power to facilitate drainage work for farmers. I am sure, however, that they will do nothing to the disadvantage of the farmers in the area.

I hope not.

Has the Parliamentary Secretary any figure for the annual drying cost? I think his last figures must be incorrect on the tot which I have made.

Mr. Lynch

The total annual drying costs are estimated at £20,500.

Does either figure include any interest on capital?

Mr. Lynch

No; the interest is provided for in the annual overheads.

Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported and agreed to.
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