Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Apr 1953

Vol. 138 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 1953—Second Stage.

Tairgim go léifear an Bille Iascaigh (Leasú), 1953, den darna uair. Tá ceithre fadhbanna dá bhfuascailt ann trí leasú ar chuid de na hAchta Iascaigh.

Is feasach do na Teachtaí gur foráladh san Acht Iascaigh, 1939, líontóireacht bhreac is bhradán i bhfíoruisce a thoirmeascadh agus gur tugadh éifeacht don fhoráil sin ón gcéad lá den bhliain naoi gcéad deag ceathracha a hocht amach. Moladh an fhoráil sin go forleitheadúil ag dreamanna deontacha a bhfuil spéis faoi leith acu sa slatiascaireacht. Rinneadh dearmad, ámh, ar aon dream amháin i lár na tíre nárbh aon chúrsa spóirt acu an t-iascach ach an phríomh-chuid dá slí mhaireachtála. Tá cónaí ar na hiascairí seo sna hoileáin i Loch Riach ar an tSionainn. Maolaíodh an toirmeasc roinnt trí fho-dhlí a dhéanamh trí bliana ó shoin a thug cead dóibh líontóireacht éisc ghairbh a chleachtadh. Níor leor é sin lena gceart féin a thabhairt ar ais do mhuinntir Loch Riach; agus níor gha an toirmeasc ar mhaithe le iascaireacht na Sionainne i ngeall ar fhairsingeacht an locha. Níor thainictheas ar aon chás eile dá shórt agus tá an tUdarás Iascaigh sásta nach bhfuil aon chás eile ann.

Baineann fadhb eile leis an dlí faoi a gcaitear bearna a bheith i ngach coradh iascaigh. Ní féidir an dlí seo a chomhlíonadh sna stáisiúin leictreachais sna haibhneacha. Tá deis nua-cheaptha acu chun an t-iasc a chomharthú agus a ligint suas tar éis cuid acu a choinneál le díol. Má rítear Alt 3 den Bhille measfar an deis seo a bheith ina coradh iascaigh chun chríche an Achta seo.

Baineann Alt 5 le fadhbanna sa dlí maidir le aibhneacha, lochanna 7rl. a shábháil ar thruailliú ó nimh agus abhair eile urchoideacha. Tá an fhoráil nua níos amplaí agus níos dlúithe ná mar ar foráladh cheana. Síltear go mbeidh srian daingean leis an gcúis seo dochair don iascaireacht agus an t-alt seo ina dhlí.

Tá réiteach ar an gceathrú fhadhbsan alt seo. Míníonn an t-alt seo é féin.

This short measure deals with four separate problems quite unrelated to each other and, as the provisions dealing with these problems do not entirely speak for themselves, it seems best to take them seriatim and explain the nature of the problem and the manner in which the proposed legislation is designed to meet it.

Section 2 proposes to authorise the use of draft nets in certain cases by exception to the general prohibition of all net fishing in fresh water imposed by Section 35 of the Fisheries Act, 1939, and which came into effect as from the 1st January, 1948. This prohibition was primarily designed to conserve stocks of salmon, but strong representations have been made on behalf of the fishermen of Lough Ree in the River Shannon against the denial to them of their ancient right of netting for trout through a prohibition which, in the case in point, does not serve any useful purpose so far as salmon are concerned. The case made by the fishermen has been met, as far as was possible, under the original enactment by making by-laws which enable them to engage in netting for coarse fish, i.e., fish other than salmon, trout or eels, but this is clearly not sufficient to meet the situation. I am advised that the use of nets in Lough Ree with due regard for conservation of spawning stocks, would not result in any injury to the fisheries of the Shannon system as a whole. Lough Ree, as part of the Shannon system, is, of course, vested in the E.S.B. under the Shannon Fisheries Act, 1938, and I have accordingly with the concurrence of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, secured the consent in principle of the E.S.B. to the amending legislation now proposed.

It will be seen that Section 2 is drawn in general terms and not by reference to particular waters. For this purpose lakes of a minimum area of 30 square miles have been taken as it is only in such large lakes that commercial netting of trout can be undertaken without detriment to the maintenance of stocks. The E.S.B.is the only fishery owner having exclusive rights over such large bodies of water but the situation also has to be envisaged where a large lake might be the property of a number of individual fishery owners. It is only right that any such owner should have a deciding voice as to facilities to be given to the public in the fisheries under his control. This position is safeguarded by the provision that an applicant for permission to use draft nets for the capture of trout must furnish the consent in writing of every owner of a several fishery in the lake in question. Moreover, the provision under Section 4 of the Bill for the holding of a public inquiry will ensure that any person with an interest in particular waters will have an opportunity of registering his objections to any proposed permissive by-law. Finally, the general provisions of the Fisheries Acts as to publication of, and appeal against, by-laws are applied as a further safeguard for interested persons.

The need for legislation as set out in Section 3 has arisen from the situation in which the E.S.B. finds itself in regard to the salmon fisheries of the River Erne. For the purpose of constructing a hydro-electric works near Ballyshannon, the board found it necessary to buy out the valuable salmon fishing weir at Assaroe Falls as this lay in the path of the river diversion and tail race excavation. The board has, up to now, been unable to make any use of the salmon fishing rights so purchased and is naturally anxious to engage in fishing operations with a view to eventual recoupment of its outlay in this connection. What the board proposes, with the support of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, is that permission should be given for the taking of salmon in the fish pass erected at the Cathaleen's Falls dam. Under existing fishery law no fishing can take place in a fish pass and, as that prohibition must be maintained in regard to mill dams and similar structures throughout the country, it is undesirable to relax it in the present cases. Instead, it is proposed to regard the fishing device which the board proposes to install in the fish pass as a fishing weir.

The general provisions of the Fisheries Acts require that every fishing weir should have a free gap, and detailed provisions are laid down as to such free gap being situated in the deepest part of the stream, being of certain dimensions, and so on. It would be quite impracticable to apply such provisions in relation to the fishing device proposed in this case which will be no more than a trap installed in one of the pools of the fish pass. It is, therefore, proposed that the requirement as to a free gap should be dispensed with and that, as an alternative, the weir should be operated in accordance with conditions that would ensure the release upstream of a sufficient number of fish for the purpose of adequately maintaining stocks. In effect, what will happen is that each batch of fish entering the pool will be counted and a permitted percentage captured, the remainder being released upstream. An essential feature of this arrangement will be the exact counting of the numbers of salmon taken and released upstream respectively and it need hardly be said that such an arrangement lends itself to much more exact control over the maintenance of fish stocks than does the free gap system which depends so largely on chance.

This section, again, is in general terms and may be applied not only to any E.S.B. installation but also to weir fisheries which will be acquired by the State in due course in pursuance of Part V of the Fisheries Act, 1939. The provisions will be applied by Order and, as any change in the existing arrangements for securing the ascent of adequate numbers of fish for spawning purposes must be of concern to anyone with an interest in the fisheries of the river concerned, such persons are entitled to certain safeguards. The necessary safeguards will be provided in three stages, namely, by the holding of a public inquiry as provided for in the next section and also by the publication of a draft of any Order proposed to be made authorising the operation of a weir without a free gap, so that those concerned may know precisely what provision is being made for the safeguarding of spawning stocks and may make objection if they considersuch arrangements inadequate or in any other way unsatisfactory. Finally, every Order of this kind will be laid before each House of the Oireachtas where it can be annulled by resolution.

Section 4, which provides for the holding of public inquiries, has been referred to in connection with the two preceding sections and requires no further explanation.

Section 5 re-enacts in slightly different form the provisions of Section 26 of the Fisheries Act, 1939, as amended by Section 3 of the Fisheries (Amendment) Act, 1944. The need for reenactment arises from the fact that the first-mentioned section was repealed as superfluous by the Fisheries (Statute Law Revision) Act, 1949. Some doubts recently arose as to the precise effects of that repeal and the Attorney-General has advised that what was repealed by the 1949 Act was the substituted provision, namely Section 3 of the Act of 1944. In effect, therefore, these provisions in relation to the protection of waters from pollution have been inadvertently abrogated and it is now proposed to reinstate them.

Some difficulties have arisen in the past in enforcing the provisions for protection of the fish from pollution due to the fact that, while certain injurious substances such as lime or spurge were prohibited by name, other sources of pollution were not adequately covered. The section as now drafted prohibits the use of any deleterious matter for the capture, destruction or injury of fish and the expression "deleterious matter" is defined as meaning any explosive or any substance which on entry or discharge into the waters is liable to render the waters poisonous or injurious to fish, spawning grounds or the food of any fish. This may appear to be rather a sweeping provision inasmuch as many substances which in sufficient concentration are injurious to fish, are daily discharged from industrial plants and sewerage systems in such manner as to be quite harmless. To meet such cases, provision is being made for the grant of licences for the discharge of industrial and other effluents subject to conditionsas will ensure such treatment by way of cooling, dilution and so on as to render them harmless from the fishery viewpoint. The interests of industry will be safeguarded by consultation with the Minister for Industry and Commerce and those of local authorities in consultation with the Minister for Local Government.

The form of this section renders Section 36 of the Fisheries (Ireland) Act, 1850 (already repealed in part) and Section 7 of the Fisheries Act, 1924, redundant and these two enactments are to be repealed.

Section 12 of the Fisheries Act, 1925, provides that a person who holds a salmon rod licence for a particular year in a fishery district shall be entitled to receive a licence (known as an endorsement licence) for the same year in any other fishery district on payment of a reduced fee of 10/-. The Foyle Fisheries Commission, in licensing regulations made under the Foyle Fisheries Act, 1952, has adopted the same principle by providing a 10/- licence fee for any salmon angler wishing to fish in the Foyle area (which comprises the entire former Moville and Derry fishery districts) who already holds a licence for the same year in a fishery district. It is desirable that boards of conservators should reciprocate in this matter by issuing endorsement licences to holders of Foyle area salmon rod licences, but I am advised that this is not possible on a strict interpretation of the law as it now stands. The purpose of this section is to regularise this matter by giving the necessary wider interpretation to the provisions of the 1925 Act. I understand that legislation will also be introduced in Belfast to deal with the question of availability of Foyle area rod licences in Six-County fishery districts.

I would have been gratified had the Parliamentary Secretary further elaborated on what seems to me to be a very revolutionary proposal in this Bill. Certainly there has been nothing like it in this country before. I refer to the taking of power to license draft nets for the catchingof trout. I do not know where that idea emanated from. Apparently, it must have come from the fishermen on Lough Ree.

Is the House seriously going to accede to that request? I do not know how these men have lived in the past. I do not know what their means of livelihood has been, but to use a draft net for the catching of trout seems to me to be highly revolutionary and I cannot bring myself to agree to such a proposal without having a very clear and definite explanation from the Parliamentary Secretary in justification of it.

The material section of this measure is very complicated and one finds it difficult to appreciate how it will ultimately work. The main objection, however, is to this very revolutionary provision. It is one that could not be accepted without a more elaborate and detailed defence. I cannot understand the justification for issuing licences for draft nets for the taking of trout. One can imagine what will happen. There will be wholesale slaughter of all the trout in the lake. How will we guarantee that the nets used will be of such mesh as to leave any trout at all alive in the lake?

Is the Parliamentary Secretary convinced that this section, the material section in this Bill, can be operated with safety to the welfare of the lake? At the moment this lake is a national asset from the point of view of rodfishing. I have the greatest misgivings. I cannot see this leading to anything but disaster. If we accept this proposal now it will be the thin edge of the wedge. This lake is three miles wide, but the moment this provision becomes operative pressure will be brought to bear from various parts for licences for a smaller area. I have the strongest objection to this proposition. It is quite new. I have never known anything like it before. I would like to have from the Parliamentary Secretary the submissions made to him which justify him in introducing this measure and seeking the approval of the House to this provision. I am thinking of the welfare of these men. I do not know anything about them but I am thinking of their welfare, ofthe livelihood they made out of it in the past, all down through the years. What is the reason for the urge to make this drastic and revolutionary proposal which is contained in this Bill? I think the House should be very slow to adopt this entirely new and revolutionary proposal. I consider that it is a jump in the dark, without any detailed explanation by the Minister as to what he hopes will eventuate.

I take it that the Parliamentary Secretary has full particulars as to the stock of trout in this lake. If so, no matter what the trout population may be to-day, how does he expect it to survive against any sort of intensive fishing by draft nets? It sounds to me like a greedy attempt to destroy the national asset which this lake is from the point of view of tourists as well as of the local people. Another important question is whether the proposal will be effective. I consider that the drafting of this important piece of legislation is very peculiar. Take, for instance, Section 2 (1) (b):

"(b) the applicant furnishes the Minister with the consent in writing of every owner of a several fishery in the lake ..."

Is that not a hamstrung performance? Does the Minister not know human nature? Does he not know the people of this country and their mentality? I do not know of one river in Ireland where, if you went out to canvass for permission from the riparian owners, you would not find one stick-in-the-mud who, out of pure cussedness and in opposition to his neighbour, would refuse to give his consent. I think this is a revolutionary proposal. I am not so desperately keen—and never have been—on revolutions and certainly I am not keen on this step. Has the Minister acceded to this and incorporated it in the Bill merely because pressure was brought to bear upon him? Has he done so, knowing that he will never have the trouble of issuing a licence because consent will never be got from all the riparian owners? I take it that the Parliamentary Secretary knows these people in the West of Ireland. I take it that he disapproved of such a revolutionaryproposal and that, therefore, he said: "If you get the consent of all the riparian owners I will give permission." The loophole is that, human nature being what it is, there will always be one man out of 100 who will refuse to co-operate with the other 99. I strongly object to such a revolutionary proposal as to put a draft net on a lake to catch trout. What is to be the size of the mesh in the net? How many trout are going to be taken out? Has an approximate inventory been taken of the amount of trout already in the lake and how many trout of a given size would the Parliamentary Secretary permit to be taken out? Further, what size mesh will the Parliamentary Secretary prescribe in the licence which he will issue with regard to the taking out of trout from this lake? We will have something more to say about this later.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary repealing the existing laws with regard to pollution and the illegal use of instruments for the taking out of fish? There is no word about "gaff" or a sort of "dummy net" made out of netting wire or all the other contrivances that clever and chronic poachers can invent for the purpose of taking out fish. Is all the existing law being repealed and the whole thing contained in Section 5 of this Bill? I think the Parliamentary Secretary should seriously consider tightening up Section 5. If we are to look upon fishing as a national asset and to keep it for the national benefit, the destruction of fish by illegal means needs to be very minutely detailed. Remember that when these people are brought to court they get a solicitor who knows the fishery laws, and if there is any loophole he will take advantage of it. In my opinion, the whole thing requires to be redrafted. We are all aware of the steeping of flax. The real danger to fish is the draining off of flax dams in August and September even though it may be done at a considerable distance from any given river because, when the water is allowed to escape, it eventually reaches the river. Has the Minister taken every precaution with regard to protection against pollution?I fear that this section is not ample enough.

I strongly object to Section 2 of the Bill. It can only be, as I have said already, that the Minister believes and is convinced that, in fact, it will never operate. That being so, why bother this House about it? Why go to the expense of bringing in this Bill, getting it printed, and so forth, if it is to be a dead letter? There is the further point of the menace to the national reputation of this lake as a fishing centre by the entire and complete destruction of the stock of trout in it. Assuming that the Bill becomes operative, how many trout will the Minister allow to be caught and of what size are they to be? Is the mesh such that it will allow the whole lake to be cleared indiscriminately by men? We have to take the long view because it is the only view that can be taken by us—representing, as we do, the interests of the State. These are the two matters that have to be considered, and we shall discuss them further on another occasion.

I am surprised at the attitude adopted by Deputy McMenamin. How he proposes to speak for the fishermen on the islands on Lough Ree, I do not know. He professes himself as being ignorant of how they carried on their way of life heretofore. He may not realise that with the advent of the E.S.B. back in 1939 the rights of the fishermen in Lough Ree and those of their families were severely curtailed and that those fishermen had been fishing that lake from time immemorial without let or hindrance.

With draft nets?

I do not see, therefore, how Deputy McMenamin can take it on himself to condemn a measure introduced by the Parliamentary Secretary to relieve that situation and to prevent the fishermen for whom I speak being dragged to the barracks day after day for fishing the lake as they always did.

Prior to the adventof the E.S.B. did they fish legally? Had they lawful authority to fish the lake? They did not use draft nets?

They had authority. They fished the lake from time immemorial with nets.

They poached the lake.

The attitude of the Fine Gael Front Bench seems to me to be in conflict. It is like their attitude to the Health Bill. On the one hand you have Deputy General MacEoin, who represents the same constituency as I do, alleging that he was making representation to the Parliamentary Secretary——

On a point of order.

I am waiting to hear what he is saying.

——to relieve the lot of those fishermen; on the other hand you have Deputy McMenamin who represents Donegal and resides in Dublin proposing to speak on behalf of the fishermen of Lough Ree.

I did not. Do not be so dense.

You objected——

The Deputy might address the Chair. It would avoid a great deal of crossfire.

The Deputy objected to the insertion of a section in this Bill that will enable the fishermen to regain some of their rights. He has no authority whatever to object or to speak on behalf of the fishermen of Lough Ree.

What did Deputy Dillon do for the fishermen of Lough Ree? He found in 1949 that the Garda barracks in Athlone and in the other towns which surround Lough Ree were full with fishermen. He then brought in a by-law to enable them to fish the lake for coarse fish. That was no use to the fishermen of Lough Ree. They did not make their living previously on coarse fish. He found even then that the E.S.B. might not agree to that proposal either.

I welcome this proposal in the Bill. In spite of the opinions of Deputy McMenamin or any other Deputy on the Fine Gael Benches it is only fair and equitable. However, there is one point to which I would draw attention. When the application is made to the Minister and if he thinks fit, he "may make by-laws permitting the use of draft nets for such capture subject to such conditions as he thinks proper." I would be concerned to see that the E.S.B., as an owner there, would not step in again and object, and put forward some grounds that might foul up the section, thereby tying up the Parliamentary Secretary in his efforts to help to relieve the Lough Ree fishermen. I am not a lawyer but I doubt if it was within the power of this House, the E.S.B., the Department of Agriculture or any other institution to take away the livelihood of the fishermen who fished that lake from time immemorial.

It is rather a pity that we cannot discuss even a measure like this except in a Party way. I listened with attention to Deputy McMenamin and I do not think he could be accused of having said that he was speaking for the fishermen in Lough Ree; and Deputy McMenamin personally could not be accused of having said that he was opposing whatever claims the fishermen of Lough Ree may have. Deputy McMenamin was asking practically all the time for information from the Parliamentary Secretary.

As one who is to some extent interested in the inland fisheries in this country, I hope that when at any time a proposal is made by any Government to give facilities which do not at the moment exist for the netting of either trout or salmon, this House will always be very careful and extremely critical of giving them. It will be agreed by anybody who has any knowledge of our inland fisheries, whether it is lake or river, that one of the troubles is that we are cursed with too many nets, weirs and traps. There is no question about it. The Minister said in the course of his remarks that under some ancient section—I forget what it was—every weir in this countryis supposed to have a free gap, which used to be known as the King's gap. It may be that there is supposed to be but I know at least one weir that has no free gap and never had it.

It is fairly well north, too.

If we had particulars we might do something about it.

The Parliamentary Secretary will find the particulars in his Department. I do not want him to misunderstand me. I am not trying to score any points. I have spoken in much stronger language to some of his predecessors on this matter. I would like to assure Deputy Carter that so far as we are concerned on this side of the House we do not want to deprive, in any way, the fishermen of Lough Ree of any of their rights, nor do we want to stand between the fishermen of Lough Ree and the restoration of any rights they may have had. I do not blame Deputy Carter in the slightest for confining his interest and his attention in this matter to Lough Ree, but I would remind him that it is proposed to take power in this Bill to deal with many lakes other than Lough Ree.

Not many. About one other.

There are several others.

You can apply for any lake all over the Twenty-Six Counties.

Look at the measurements of the lake.

There are quite a number of lakes in this country that are bigger than Lough Ree.

The same position does not obtain.

Lough Derg is one of those. I was born within five miles of it and I have some interest in it. I could mention quite a number of others, but I am not trying to be controversial. I have a real interest in this apart altogether from politics. As a matter of fact one of the few occasionson which I can get away from politics is when I can get out on the bank of a river or a lake. I wish I could be more often there, to the benefit perhaps not merely of myself but of some of my colleagues here.

My objection to the Bill is based not so much on what it contains as on what it does not contain. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to elaborate a little more when he is replying, or if not we can get it on the Committee Stage, on this proposal for taking fish from the fish pass. I am not attacking that proposal because I do not know anything about it. It may be a good proposal. I should also like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary as to when he hopes to be in position to bring into operation Part V of the 1939 Act. Perhaps he could give it to us even approximately.

This question of the inland fisheries is one of the utmost importance to this country. The potential value of our inland fisheries is very great and the tragedy of it is that we have done practically nothing whatever either to improve the fisheries, to preserve them or to stock them. This country has spent considerable sums of money in trying to attract tourists here particularly in the off-season. I know of no greater attraction in the off-season than the lake and river fishing we have in this country. Shooting I have mentioned before on another occasion and I am confining myself for the moment to fishing. In my opinion a great deal of the money that we spend in other ways in order to induce people spend their holidays and their money in this country, could be much more usefully spent for the benefit and further development and protection of our inland fisheries. The angler is the best type of tourist we can get for two reasons. When he comes, if he gets any fair fishing at all, he will come back again year after year and probably bring others. If he meets with any little bit of success on the river or the lake, when he returns home he is not going to understate his achievements. He is more likely to indulge in a little exaggeration and, in that way, he becomes a sort of ambassador for this country.

We should also remember that the fisherman or the angler does not want the same sort of luxury surrounding a hotel or even the same food as the ordinary type of tourist whom you see once in a lifetime here. When the angler comes once, he is likely to come back again. The angler also gives very considerable employment to boatmen and gillies on our lakes and rivers. I know one particular village in this country which lives in the holiday season almost entirely out of fishing. I have gone out into the yard of the hotel in that village in the morning and seen there 20 or 30 boatmen or gillies lined up waiting each for his own particular angler. Each of these men gets anything from 15/- to £1 a day. That employment could be multiplied many times over. The whole system at present is in my humble opinion wrong. I do not profess to be an expert; the only excuse I can advance for intervening in this debate is my interest in the matter.

The whole set-up here, with boards of conservators getting about one-fifth of the amount of money they would want properly to discharge their duties and being advanced in such a way that it does not enable most of them to employ one river watcher or keeper or to pay him a decent wage, does not indicate any keen desire to develop our fisheries.

Apart from overletting and over-trapping, there is almost wholesale poaching carried on in this country. A great deal of that poaching is of the worst possible type—the use of poison, the use of explosives. Unfortunately for the future of fishing in this country some of the poachers are doing their damnedest to kill the goose that is laying the golden egg and the greatest amount of damage to fish is done during the spawning season. I must say, though some people would not agree with me, that I have no terrible personal objection to the poor man who takes a salmon out of the river in the middle of the season, but I would have very little sympathy with the fellow who would take a salmon out of the river in October, November and December, apart altogether from the fact that fish taken at that period of theyear are not fit for consumption and certainly are not safe to eat.

There are a great many matters, now that I am on my feet, I should like to deal with in connection with our inland fisheries. There is one appeal I would make to the Parliamentary Secretary. Will he try to get out of the very substantial sums, which are now made available to the two boards that are looking after tourist development in this country, some decent amount instead of the miserable sum which was made available, I think, to the trust this year? I am speaking quite sincerely when I say that there is nothing upon which we could spend money more usefully than on the development and better protection of the fisheries of this country. Nothing would pay better dividends. There is no doubt whatever that once you get over the summer season in this country, with the exception of fishing, shooting and hunting, we have very few attractions to offer to visitors in this country that they cannot get in far greater variety in other countries. We know that we can offer them fishing and shooting here equal to the best in Europe. We know what the Scotch have been able to do. We know what enormous revenue must be attracted to Scotland and in particular to the highlands of Scotland every year. There are very few people in this House who know more about this matter than the Parliamentary Secretary himself.

The Parliamentary Secretary comes from, and is thoroughly acquainted with, what is perhaps one of the best sporting areas, not merely in these islands, but probably in Europe. There is a wealth of fishing in the west of this country, leaving out altogether the south and east, which it would be hard to equal anywhere. Many of the lakes, even lakes which are first-class lakes not merely for brown trout but sea trout, are almost unapproachable, unless you are a fairly active young fellow who can hop from one hillock to another across a bog. The Parliamentary Secretary knows that as well as I do.

It is absurd to see fellows broughtup in court for using explosives in a salmon or trout river, being read a lecture by some district justice and fined 10/-. We cannot be blind to this fact, that the inducement or incentive to use every and any means to get salmon and trout nowadays is aggravated by the very high price, comparatively speaking, which is available for salmon and trout, and there is no use in fining in a sum of £5, a fellow who, by poison, or by netting a pool in a river, or by the use of explosives, brings out a salmon or five or ten salmon, when he can get £5 for one salmon. I know that the Parliamentary Secretary is aware of these things and probably much more aware of them than I am. What I have been saying is to some extent the result of my own experience, for what it is worth, the result of my own observations, but more so the result of information I have got from people who have been interested in inland fishing all their lives and who are concerned that this national asset of ours—and it is a national asset—is being left there, without any real drive being made to improve the situation.

Like Deputy McMenamin, I should be a little apprehensive of the powers being sought here regarding legalising the netting of trout in various lakes in the country. It is not an answer, as we have often said, for the Parliamentary Secretary or Minister of any Government putting a particular Act through the House to say that that is not his intention, that he does not mean to do that. The trouble is that, once we put the Bill through the House and it becomes an Act, we have nothing further to do with it. It depends entirely on the interpretation put on it by the people outside, and while the present Parliamentary Secretary, with his knowledge of and interest in inland fisheries, might be concerned to see that nothing detrimental to the future of our inland fisheries is done, his successors in the years to come might not have anything like the same interest.

I appeal to him to let us know what he has in mind on this question of the better protection and development ofthe inland fisheries, and particularly to let us know whether he sees any prospect in the near future of being able to buy out, if that is the way it is to be done, some of the traps and trapping rights which are being operated, in my opinion, to the detriment of the inland fisheries. There is no doubt whatever that our lakes and rivers were much better stocked and infinitely more salmon and trout got out of them 50 years ago than are got out of them to-day. I am not trying to make this a controversial subject in any way; on the contrary, I am trying to treat this as a Bill which we can discuss in a completely non-Party way and solely from the point of view of our interest in the future of the sport.

I do not propose to make a speech on the advantages of the fishing industry as a tourist attraction and I will try to confine myself, so far as I can, to the Bill. I have very many reasons for opposing Section 2. I have been closely associated with the fishing industry for a good many years and I know quite a lot about inland fisheries, but once I hear nets mentioned in relation to inland fisheries, my hands are up. I spend a great part of my time prosecuting decent men for using nets in inland fisheries in one part of my constituency, and, in another part, I spend an equal length of time defending decent men for using nets in inland fisheries; but I hate to see any section going into the Statute Book legalising the use of nets in inland waters.

It is all very fine for Deputy Carter to speak as he has spoken. I can understand and appreciate how anxious he is to see the people of his own constituency gaining some rights under this Bill, but it may be a case of Deputy Carter to-day, Deputy McGrath of Cork to-morrow and Deputy McMenamin of Donegal, the day after. The successor of the Parliamentary Secretary may have a completely different outlook from that of the Parliamentary Secretary. I think that no net other than a landing net should be permitted in inland fisheries or waters. It is time that steps were taken, as Deputy Morrissey has said,to abolish some of the traps, the fixed engines, fixed nets, which we have, and it is a serious retrograde step, in my opinion, to permit the use of draft nets in fresh waters. Even this very day, we have a party of Frenchmen fishing in the West of Ireland. What are they going to think when they hear that we are going to permit the use of draft nets in these fine fishing lakes over there?

I remember some years ago the Letterkenny (No. 14) Board of Conservators making application to the then Parliamentary Secretary for permission to net certain lakes for the purpose of catching cannibal trout. It was a very good and wise suggestion, because the cannibal trout could have been removed and the fish in these lakes possibly improved, but the then Minister refused the board of conservators the power to use nets for the purpose of removing these cannibal trout. I could understand nets being used on such occasions as that, but, once they are used commercially, we will find ourselves in the very same position as that in which we find ourselves in relation to estuary fisheries at the moment in the matter of draft nets. It will possibly be necessary to introduce legislation to control the number of licences which may be issued and I seriously ask the Parliamentary Secretary to withdraw that section. It may be, as Deputy McMenamin said, wise politics on his part and Section 2 may be a saving section. However, I personally am opposed to it.

With regard to Section 3, the free gap referred to by the Parliamentary Secretary has been an important one. It has been known as the Queen's Gap, ever since the introduction of the 1842 Fishery Act, right down through the years, but here we are taking steps to do away with it, to seal off one end of the fish pass. I do not think it is a good thing. Why should we give a quasi-State body such as the E.S.B. more powers than we are able to give to the ordinary fishermen, the ordinary owner of a private fishery? Why should they be given more powers to commercialise a fishery than are being given to the ordinary owner of a severalfishery? It is something that the Parliamentary Secretary and this House should be very very slow to grant and I hope it will be further considered on the Committee Stage.

In regard to Section 5, it is a strange thing that our fishery laws have to be introduced through the Oireachtas piecemeal. Section 5 reintroduces our old friend of the 1952 Act. Under the Act it was unlawful and illegal to cause deleterious flax to be put in rivers. That section was repealed under the 1939 Act, re-introduced under the 1944 Act, repealed under the 1949 Act and here we are introducing it under an Act of 1953. I think that instead of introducing this Bill the Parliamentary Secretary would have done much better if he had introduced the Bill circulated some months ago, the Fisheries (Consolidation) Bill, 1952. If he had put these various sections into the Consolidation Bill he would have avoided, in my opinion, a considerable amount of trouble and ambiguity. I am very glad to see Section 5 re-introduced, but there is one deleterious matter in relation to which I would like to see provisions specifically set out and that is the refuse from the alcohol factories. I know one river down near Convey in Donegal which was a good fishing river until the alcohol factory was erected. After the alcohol factory had been erected, we saw dead fish floating down the river.

There is not one solitary fish to be found in that river. The matter was brought to the notice of the Department. They were asked for directions as to whether proceedings should be instituted or otherwise. No proceedings have ever been instituted. We are aware that this refuse is a deleterious and poisonous matter so far as fresh fish is concerned. I should like to see something done under Section 5 of the 1953 (Amendment) Bill to enable the proprietors or operators of these alcohol factories to be prosecuted and made amenable to the law just as any other individual in the State.

Like Deputy Morrissey, I would appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to approach those boards who are nowresponsible for advertising and looking after the interests of tourism generally for more funds for the development of our inland fisheries. What we require most are hatcheries.

In Donegal where we have something in the neighbourhood of 375 lakes, we have but one hatchery. I am not very old myself but I remember a time when in one quarter of that county we had three hatcheries but now one hatchery must serve the entire county. To obtain brown trout ova for that hatchery we have got to import it from Scotland. I would like to see the Parliamentary Secretary make a serious effort to establish a greater number of hatcheries not only in Donegal but in the West of Ireland. After all, the West of Ireland deserves a considerable amount of attention from the point of view of the State's ambitious programme in connection with An Tóstal. I would like to see small hatcheries on every chain of lakes and rivers all over the country. If we had that, in my opinion, we would be doing much more for tourism than we are at the moment.

I would also appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to make some provision whereby boards of conservators may spend the surplus money which at the moment they are compelled to retain on deposit. Our board at home in Donegal has to carry a credit balance of approximately £1,200 year in, year out, while at the same time we are permitted to pay water keepers only the meagre sum of £6 per season. Knowing our boards, there is no reason why they should not be permitted to spend at least another £800 out of that surplus. Four hundred pounds would be sufficient to indemnify them and ensure that they would never have to call upon the Treasury for funds. I know certain boards in other parts of the Twenty-Six Counties require subsidisation from the State but boards that have proved that they are able to look after themselves and carry a sufficient credit balance to provide them for two years' work should be permitted to spend the surplus either to pay water keepers, provide hatcheries, clear fish passes or generally improve the fisheries.

I would also like to see closer co-operation between the boards of conservators and local anglers' associations. There is no better advertisement for the country than the local anglers' associations, and we should encourage every angling tourist who comes to the country to join the local angling association. Grants should be made available out of these State funds to these angling associations for the purpose of procuring fry for the restocking of rivers. I make a final appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to reconsider Section 2 before we reach the Committee Stage, and to amend Section 5 by the inclusion in sub-section (2) (a) of provision in respect of the refuse from these alcohol factories.

Is that not already covered?

In this section? No. It is not covered already. The 1939 Act unfortunately goes back to conduit pipe lines erected within six months of the passing of the Act. This is the section of the old 1925 Act which requires amendment.

Perhaps my introductory statement about Section 2 was not full enough. I did, in any event, specifically mention a particular lake, Lough Ree. It might be expected that, perhaps, I should have dealt with the matter in the Bill in that way by naming the lake. We preferred, however, to do it in the general way of naming dimensions and making some other provisions which would meet the problem which was to be solved. Deputy McMenamin said that this was a revolutionary measure. From all the facts that I have been able to gather about this particular problem of the abolishing of the right to net in Lough Ree, I am convinced that the revolution was the other way round, that it was the statute which sought to bring about the revolution. What Deputy Carter said is, in fact, true, that there was no time within living memory, or, to put it in his own words, from time immemorial, during which this draft netting for trout was notcarried on as a means of livelihood. With a stroke of the pen, it abolished the livelihood of a considerable number of families living on the islands of Lough Ree. It left them with no alternative but to emigrate from their ancestral homes and find a livelihood wherever they may. There was no other comparable case in the country, and, personally, I am satisfied that a very grave hardship, in fact an injustice, was inflicted on those people. It is because of that that we have introduced this measure. We are trying to undo the wrong that was done to them. As Deputy Carter pointed out, appeals were made from all sides of the House to do justice in this matter.

I would like to assure Deputy McMenamin, Deputy Morrissey and Deputy O'Donnell that we are not opening every lake in the country to draft netting for trout. The area is sufficiently large to exclude practically all sheets of water with the exception of four. From the reading of the section, it is obvious that an application must be made, and that the applicant must furnish the Minister with the consent of every owner of a several fishery.

It will be a bit of a job to prove title in some of these cases.

I think Deputy Morrissey has put his finger on the fact that the difficulty will be practically insuperable. The E.S.B. is the only several fishery owner that we know of in these lakes, and in this section we are not interfering with the E.S.B. ownership in any way. What we are doing is legalising a certain method of catching fish, and after that it is for the people concerned, that is the Lough Ree fishermen, to secure the necessary permission from the E.S.B. to ply their trade as they have always been in the habit of doing.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary have any objection to confining the operation of this section to Lough Ree? Frankly, it makes some of us a bit nervy when we think of the possibilities.

I have already indicatedthe practical impossibility of applying this section to sheets of water other than those under the control of the E.S.B.

May I say that I have always been conscious of the fact that the fishing is only a secondary consideration with the E.S.B.?

That is true, but this House on two occasions, that is when the 1935 Act and the 1938 Act were passed, decided that it was the lesser of two evils to give the people who control the major interest the control of all interests. Apparently, the Minister for Industry and Commerce was advised that, if the E.S.B. interest was not paramount, there would be serious interference with the carrying into execution of the works which the E.S.B. was primarily established to carry out. The Fisheries Branch is always consulted by the E.S.B. when they propose to develop a river. I must say that they have always been most co-operative, and have never taken any serious step without first getting the advice of the scientists and engineers in the Fisheries Branch.

I would like to assure Deputies who feel a little bit nervous about the extent of the application of this section that, in so far as the Fisheries Branch can foresee, it will not, and cannot apply except to solve the problem which I have outlined, and that is the very serious interference with the 50 or 60 families who—this applies to their ancestors as well—have lived mainly by the netting of brown trout in this lake. The section, too, is designed to restore that right to them. As a matter of fact, the question has been raised outside this House, of the competence of this House to take away that right from them. It has never been tested, but I know it has been mooted.

Deputy McMenamin asked me if Section 5 repeals all other provisions. Section 5 deals with poisons, explosives and other deleterious matter. This section replaces all other provisions. We are satisfied that it is comprehensive enough to cover every possible use, and to include those specifically mentioned by Deputy O'Donnell.

I think that should be done in more specific language in the section.

Deputy O'Donnell did mention one particular case of pollution which he thought was not dealt with, and that was effluent from the alcohol factories. We have taken up that matter with the alcohol factories. They are complying with the law and are doing everything they possibly can to treat the effluent and render it innocuous.

There are some matters that I am dealing with now which, possibly, are not provided for at all in this Bill. Deputy Morrissey asked me about Part V of the Act of 1939. I do not mind answering the question although the matter does not arise on the Bill.

We are on the Second Reading of this Bill and I feel that I was fully justified in asking the question, and that the Parliamentary Secretary would be fully justified in answering me. On the Second Stage of a Bill, we can talk on not merely what is in the Bill but on what we think should be in it. However, I would be glad to get the information if the Parliamentary Secretary has it.

Part V, as Deputy Morrissey knows, provided that there should be observation of each of these transferable fisheries by an officer of the Department for a period of not less than three years and not longer than ten years. I am sure he will agree with me that a delay of that length is inadvisable. That, in itself, I think, is sufficient justification for amending the measure. There are other matters, of course, as well. There are proposals for the amendment of the 1939 Act. These are taking shape in the Fisheries Branch. They have not yet reached the point at which they can be submitted to the Government for approval. There are a great many matters taking up the time and attention of the principal officers in the Fisheries Branch and some of them are equally as important as the amendment of Part V, but I want to assure Deputy Morrissey that all the time and attention that it is possible to give to this particular question is being given to it.

I am very glad to hear it.

When does the Parliamentary Secretary think the amending Bill will be introduced?

I do not think it will be possible to have it introduced before the autumn.

Fair enough.

I am thinking of it from the point of view of consolidation that is exercising the minds of some of us at the moment.

We are aware of the desirability of having any other contemplated legislation enacted in time for consolidation and if we can do that we will certainly co-operate with the committee.

It would be very desirable.

Deputy Morrissey referred to the trust. The trust is really the product of the angling associations. Deputy Morrissey has expressed his appreciation of the work these associations are doing and I endorse that. As a matter of fact, the trust is a body designed to co-ordinate the activities of all these voluntary bodies. It is the policy to ensure that the representatives of the voluntary associations will, as far as possible, control the activities of the trust and that there will be as little interference as possible from the officials of the Fisheries Branch with the work of development. But, of course, the Department provides the finance for the work and must naturally have an effective say in how it is spent.

The trust is doing the work and the Department are getting good value for whatever money they are spending.

That is quite so. On the question of the lack of money, that is becoming more obvious as time goes on. Costs generally are increasing. On that particular matter the Department is hammering out proposals with the object of increasing the fundsavailable for the protection of our inland fisheries. An Bord Fáilte, as has been mentioned, contributed a considerable sum for the development of lakes in the West of Ireland and it is hoped that they will see their way to continue that financial assistance in respect of similar development in other parts of the country.

They could give you a whole lot more.

It is not true to say that when this Bill is passed we will have no further control over how Section 2 will be applied. Orders and by-laws will still have to be brought into being and in bringing in those Orders and by-laws the House and interested parties outside will have an effective say as to what the final form will be.

Are there no by-laws governing fishing in Lough Ree at the moment?

No. The only by-law is one that was brought in about three years ago restoring the right to net for coarse fish. That does not meet what I consider an injustice on these fishermen and that is borne out by their failure or refusal to apply for compensation under the legislation which enabled fishermen to be compensated for the loss of their right to net. The Lough Ree men did not apply for that compensation for the reason that money would be no compensation for the loss which was being inflicted on them. In that connection, Deputy O'Donnell indicated that these fishermen were poachers and were breaking the law. We do not know what law the Lough Ree men were breaking. When they and their ancestors were netting, so far as we know, there was not any law and they were really exercising a natural right. It was we who introduced the element of law into it and they have been challenging that. So, I think the revolutionary action was taken on the part of the State, not on the part of the fishermen.

Deputy O'Donnell made the statement that boards of conservators arenot allowed to spend their money and that there is an undue interference with them—I think he meant to suggest by the Fisheries Branch—in this matter of disposing of their funds. There is no truth in that. The boards are free to spend their revenues on all functions and duties for which they are constituted. Possibly there is interference with a board who spend in such a way as to leave no reserve for protection of the fisheries during the close season. Beyond interference of that sort, and we consider that that is wise interference, wise supervision, I do not think Deputy O'Donnell's complaint can be substantiated.

His allegation was that boards were being compelled to carry a very substantial credit balance always.

Perhaps the best way to elucidate the point would be for me to give a specific case.

We can get it on Committee Stage.

I do not think that there is any other point that has been raised that I have not dealt with, except perhaps the regulation with regard to the new fish pass constructed by the E.S.B. at Ballyshannon. Deputies who are acquainted with the fishery laws know that where there is a fishing weir there must be a free gap and that this free gap must be open for two days of the week. They also know that it is not permissible to take fish in a fish pass. A difficulty arose at Ballyshannon and will arise in other similar works created by the E.S.B. of complying with the requirements of the fishery law in respect of the free passage of fish. To meet it, the E.S.B. engineers constructed what the Fisheries Branch regard as being very satisfactory and efficient fish passes, and the law in relation to the prohibition of fishing in these passes is being modified. Devices or contrivances for measuring the number of fish that get into the pass are installed and the exact number of fish entering the pass can now be recorded and, therefore,the exact number that get into the upper reaches of the river for spawning can be recorded accurately and precisely.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 30th April, 1953.
Barr
Roinn