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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Apr 1953

Vol. 138 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Before the adjournment of the debate I had mentioned a local objection with regard to the dispatch of post from Wexford town. At present there are two dispatches, one at about 3.30 a.m.and the other at 8.30 p.m. I am particularly concerned about commercial travellers who do a considerable amount of correspondence when their day's work is done, writing letters up to 11 or 12 at night. They are concerned to have their orders mailed to their head office or distribution department for execution as quickly as possible. Letters written to-night in Wexford town do not leave the town until 3.30 or 4 p.m. the following day. They are lying in the post office or pillar boxes for 15 or 16 hours. A letter written on the night of the 19th is not delivered in, say, Dublin, until the 21st. There is a reasonably good train service out of the town. A train leaves the town at 7 a.m. and at 10, which could be utilised for the dispatch of letters and parcels. I mentioned that matter last year and I suppose I will be mentioning it for another five years before there is any improvement in that respect. I do not know what extra cost would be involved in improving the present position which causes a good deal of inconvenience, and I would ask the officials of the Department, through the Minister, to look into it as soon as possible.

The Minister has had some difficulties with regard to the appointment of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses, even over the last 12 months. I do not want to labour the arguments or to stress any of the cases that have been quoted in this House over the last 12 months. It seems to me that there still remains a great deal of tightening up to be done with regard to the appointment of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses.

There was, in my opinion and in the opinion of two or three other Deputies in my constituency, a most extraordinary appointment made in Fethard-on-Sea. I cannot say or prove that the appointment was irregular, but there was a very, very bad odour from the appointment, the manner in which it was made and the general circumstances under which the person appointed established the post office. Contrary to the usual practice, the replies given by the Minister to questionson the matter were, to say the least, unsatisfactory. My information and the information of Deputies representing the constituency is that the post office was allowed to be established or situated in a licensed premises. That was not denied by the Minister in clear, succinct words. Very skilfully, he evaded that particular question. I say "very skilfully" to his credit. Those of us who raised the question did not get entire satisfaction from the Minister. As far as we know, the fact is that the Department or the Minister allowed this post office to be established in licensed premises. It may be true that the premises were not used as licensed premises or that the portion of the premises in which the post office was established was not used for the sale of liquor, but the fact remains that it was a licensed premises. We in this House have been led to believe for quite a considerable time that it is contrary to the policy or regulations laid down by the Department that a sub-post office should be established in premises such as I have mentioned.

The Minister gave us a fair idea of his views with regard to the appointment of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses last year, but I would again suggest that a tighter system and a more just system than is being practised at the present time should be established. I shall not go into the merits or demerits of the applicants for the Fethard-on-Sea post office, but I would suggest that the Minister should try to devise some more equitable method for the appointment of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses.

In regard to the stamps issued to commemorate public men the Minister referred to the difficulties in obtaining dies and proper paper and so on. He rather inferred that the cost of issuing these stamps could be fairly big. Would the Minister take a suggestion from me? I would humbly suggest that the stamps should be of the size that ordinarily has been used by the Department over a long number of years. It is difficult to know how to describe the plasters that we have got for the Tóstal and other special issues.It has occurred to me, having regard to the size of the stamps issued in the past few years, that it would be infinitely cheaper to paper a room with such stamps than with wall-paper. I do not know if there is any particular reason for the abnormal size of these stamps. I would suggest that any special issue of stamps in future should conform with the size that has been ordinarily in use here.

There are just a few points I want to bring to the notice of the Minister on this Estimate. I agree with Deputy Norton when he suggested that it was quite unnecessary to bring postmen in rural areas into work at 6 or 6.30 in the mornings to deliver post to a community that does not start work until a good deal later in the day. I suggest that there is still a great delay in the installation of telephones, especially in certain areas around the City of Dublin. Several of my constituents have made representations to me in regard to their difficulty in getting telephones installed. From my travels around the country I must say that a lot of the Post Office buildings would not get a certificate from the Department of Health if they were carrying on any other business than Post Office work.

I should also like to bring to the notice of the Minister the fact that sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses throughout the country are grossly underpaid. They are obliged to keep a first class set of books and these books are subject to examination at any time by an inspector from the Post Office and not one halfpenny must go astray. In other words, it requires a skilled bookkeeper to keep the accounts of any local post office. In many cases, the payment given to the postmasters or postmistresses in these post offices would shame any Deputy. In some cases it does not amount to as much as 25/- a week and in others it is much less. The postmasters or postmistresses in rural areas have to provide decent accommodation. They have to provide a certain counter space and a certain amount of privacy. If they get anything in the neighbourhood of £50 per year they are verylacky; a lot of them are getting less than £30.

In the City of Dublin, where the postmasters or postmistresses find it necessary to employ a qualified girl in a lot of cases they do not receive sufficient money to pay a decent wage to the girl. It is argued by the Post Office authorities that if there is a post office in a tobacconist or newsagent's shop it tends to bring business. I suggest to the Minister that in the year 1953, with everything so dear, people just buy what they require in each shop. The fact that somebody who sells cigarettes or other goods has a post office does not bring customers into that shop or help to increase the turnover. In view of the increase which the Minister has suggested in postal and other charges, I suggest that this Estimate should be referred back for reconsideration.

I should like to support the appeal made by other Deputies on behalf of certain Post Office workers as I believe they are one section of the Civil Service that are underpaid. They are not paid anything commensurate with the importance of the work they do. I refer particularly to the outdoor staffs whose jobs are onerous. They carry a very serious responsibility as they are handling very important property belonging to the citizens. The fact that there is such a low percentage of complaints shows the very excellent type of persons employed in that service.

The Minister should give serious consideration to his promise made last year, which I know is his intention, that is to create more full-time posts in the outdoor service and have as few as possible part-time auxiliary postmen. I said before, and I believe it more strongly than ever, that there is no such thing as a part-time postman really. Such a postman has to work at both ends of the day. After doing his rounds in the morning, he has to return in the afternoon or evening to bring the postbags to the train. It is not possible for him to engage in any other employment except to spend an hour or two in his plot or garden, if he has one attached to his cottage. It is difficult to see how these peoplecan be regarded as part-time workers and paid on the basis of the number of hours they work as they are in the service of the Post Office practically the whole day. The sooner something is done to ameliorate the position of these men the better. I think everyone in this House and outside it will be agreeable to something being done to make their position more commensurate with the work entrusted to them.

I notice when the claim of civil servants for increased remuneration focused a certain amount of public attention recently on the rates being paid to the different sections that the post office section was the worst paid in the Civil Service. Why that should be I do not know, but I believe it is the case and that they have a special claim in that respect.

The question of telephones probably interests every Deputy as Deputies are asked frequently by constituents to make representations to expedite the installation of telephones for them. I appreciate the difficulties of the Post Office staff in that respect, but an effort should be made to tackle the problem in a more expeditious manner. The recruitment of extra staff I think would be the only way, even if it were only on a temporary basis, to deal with the large number of applications for telephones. Side by side with that is the problem of adequate lines to cope with the additional subscribers who are being connected day after day. In some cases we are reaching a stage where it is doubtful whether it is a boon to have a telephone because, owing to the number of additional subscribers, delays are more numerous and the lines are not adequate to carry the extra traffic.

They may be now when the cost of telephones is about to go up.

Mr. Brennan

The telephone is an expensive luxury but the fact remains that despite the recent increase applications are pouring in and I think we will, in time, reach the stage where the telephone will be used as extensively as it is in the U.S.A., for instance, where there is a telephone infour out of every five houses.

I must register a protest in relation to one matter. I would like to have the Minister's view on it. I refer to the system under which the telephone section of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs asks one to increase the deposit when the number of calls increases over a certain figure. That betrays a certain suspicion in the minds of the people in the Post Office. In the last quarter I was asked to deposit £7 extra as security against an increasing number of calls. I think that betrays a quite unwarrantable suspicion on the part of the Post Office particularly in relation to Deputies since the increase in the number of their calls is brought about to some extent through their being members of this House.

Deputy Mac Fheórais said that the Thomas Moore commemoration stamp takes a lot of licking. The larger stamps are not too popular despite the fact that they are more decorative and are much sought after by philatelists. If one has to stamp anything from 20 to 100 letters, as Deputies often have to do, one does not care for the larger stamp. In future stamps, whether commemorative or not, should be smaller in size. Smaller stamps would save a good deal of time and time is in somewhat short supply at the moment.

I support the claim made by the staffs, particularly the outdoor staffs, for increased remuneration. I will support any steps taken or any efforts made to improve the lot of rural postmen. Despite some slight increases having been given over the last few years, the rural postman is not yet in receipt of a wage commensurate with the work he is doing. The attitude of the higher officials towards these people is not always commendable. When a change is made in the situation of a post office and it moves a few hundred yards nearer to a railway station a reduction is made in the wages paid to the rural postman because the few minutes saved per day is deducted from the time he spends at his work. Since they are so particular in deducting a few minutes off these people I think the higher officials should examine their ownposition and ask themselves whether or not such action is justified. Rural postmen cannot find other work in order to supplement their incomes because they are not available at a time when workmen are ordinarily required.

I agree with the previous speaker in relation to the conditions and terms of employment of auxiliary postmen. An auxiliary postman is a very important State employee. He has a difficult function to perform. He gives most of his time and his service to the State and very often after years of loyal service he is left in difficult financial circumstances. His employment does not seem to be very definite in character and in some cases temporary postmen who have worked for years for the State have found themselves out of employment without any compensation. I have had several instances in my constituency where auxiliary postmen, because of force of circumstances, ill-health or something else, have been unable to continue in their employment. They get nothing from the State. I understand there is a fund which provides them with a gratuity, but I think that fund is very limited and quite inadequate to cover the position of these unfortunate men. The Minister should give some consideration to these auxiliary postmen. It should be possible to absorb them into permanent employment.

Permanent postmen in so far as their economic standard is concerned, rate very much the same as forestry workers or agricultural labourers. Possibly they have a few shillings per week more. They have not yet received the increase they hoped to receive though the agricultural labourer and the forestry worker have had their wages adjusted upwards to meet the rising cost of living. Surely the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is in a position to give these men their due. They have a very serious grievance. The same argument applies to the lower-paid officials, many of whom find it exceedingly difficult to live.

That is not a matter for the Minister for Postsand Telegraphs. It is a matter for the Minister for Finance.

Surely the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs would have some influence in the Government and in directing the policy of the Government to remunerate these people properly.

If the Deputy is referring to the Civil Service arbitration award, surely that cannot be discussed on every Estimate. It is a matter for the Minister for Finance.

On a point of order. Are not the salaries and wages of all employees of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs charged on the present Minister's Vote, and are not matters arising therefrom properly relevant for discussion?

Deputy Esmonde is referring to the Civil Service Arbitration Board award.

He is referring to the wages paid to temporary postmen.

The arbitration award is a matter for the Minister for Finance and not for the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

I was merely referring to temporary postmen and to the lower-paid officials of the Minister's Department but, in deference to the Chair, I will not pursue that argument any further. Would the Minister tell us how appointments are made to the post of sub-postmaster or sub-postmistress? I understand some type of selection board is responsible for considering the applications sent forward. When a vacancy occurs it is quite common to receive anything from half a dozen to a dozen applications. What specific facts are taken into consideration in the making of these appointments?

Membership of the local Fianna Fáil cumann or close relationship thereto.

I would not like to go so far as to say that, but I would like the Minister to clarify the position. It is unfortunately a fact that theseappointments tend to be political. We have had one or two in my constituency recently. It is rather difficult to know what factors exactly are taken into consideration when these people are appointed. Does the Minister accept the recommendations of this selection board or not? If he does not accept their recommendations, I assume that they recommend them in the order one, two and three. If the Minister does not accept the higher-up recommendations that are put before him I think it would be better, in fairness to this board, to dissolve them and to let the Minister make the appointment himself and come to this House and say that he has made the appointment. I fully appreciate that, in all appointments, the Minister probably has the final say. Why have a selection board if you do not accept the findings of that selection board? I have no actual proof that the Minister has not accepted the findings but I should like him to clarify the position and give some indication of the factors that determine these appointments.

Surely that is like asking the burglar to ring the burglar alarm.

Telephones. I am glad to see in the Minister's statement that he is having an appropriate extension of telephones in the south-east of Ireland. We are a pretty extensive tourist area down there and, heretofore, we have had considerable difficulty with regard to our trunk calls. The position is improving. I am glad to see that the Minister intends to improve it still further in the forthcoming season.

In my constituency—and I think it is universal throughout the country— there has been a considerable extension of telephone services. I am sure every Deputy will welcome that extension We are rapidly approaching the stage in which every post office will have a telephone. That should be the case and indeed it should have been the case a considerable while back. Heretofore, in districts where there has been no telephone, everybody concerned suffered a great hardship. Iam not satisfied that the hours of service in regard to these rural telephones are in the best interests of the telephone subscribers or of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I know that in my constituency, where there are limited trunk facilities, there are people who would apply for a telephone and who would be glad to get a telephone if they knew that they would get a round-the-clock service. A telephone service that closes down at 8 o'clock or 10 o'clock at night is a very limited facility. Most business people know that a lot of conversations with regard to the ordering of stores, and so forth, and that a lot of long-distance calls take place at night by reason of the fact that is is easier to get through, that there is less obstruction on the line and that there is better reception. I hope the Minister will take a bolder step and endeavour to extend round-the-clock telephone facilities. I believe that, if he does so, he will reap a good return.

I am not sure of the figures but I understand that the present position is that if there are ten subscribers in an area, the extension is to 10 o'clock. I think that when there are 16 or 17 subscribers the service is extended to 12 o'clock and that when there are 20 subscribers the service is a round-the-clock service. I suggest that the Minister should extend round-the-clock telephone facilities everywhere. In the majority of rural post offices, the postmistress or the postmaster or their assistants live on the premises. To revert for a moment to the matter of the appointment of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses, I think it would be very desirable that, in any appointments made in the future, one of the governing factors should be that the appointee will live on the premises.

I note that the Minister is increasing the telephone charges. He justifies the increase in charges with a statement that he wishes the telephone service to pay its way. I wonder if that is a fact? I wonder if this continual imposition of increased charges on the people is a satisfactory method of collecting revenue in order to maintain the telephone service? I think we have seen that other impositionsand increased taxes which were imposed on the people did not achieve the desired result. We have already had a recent increase in telephone charges. Does the Minister not feel that, by further increasing these charges, he may defeat his own ends and frighten people off from becoming subscribers and seeking telephone facilities? It is not very good business or very useful for anybody in rural Ireland to have a telephone unless there is a round-the-clock service. The new increase which the Minister has announced will, I think, result in fewer applications for telephone services.

It is only natural that, so far, the telephone service has not been paying its way. I consider that the Minister has done good work with regard to the extension of telephone facilities. I think he has been very efficient in that respect and has gone ahead with the scheme, in so far as it was possible for him to do so with the staff at his disposal. When you are extending telephone facilities and particularly to areas where these facilities have not heretofore been available, it is only natural that, in the beginning, the people in these areas are not telephone-minded. Give them a little time to become accustomed to using the telephone. As a Deputy and as a medical man I have had quite a lot of experience in that regard. People have often travelled quite a long distance—passing a telephone box on the way—sometimes in very bad weather, to ask me to call to their homes. Often they have suffered quite a lot of hardship in coming a long distance to ask me personally to call when they might have used the telephone. That is because they are not telephone-minded. Whatever loss the Minister may incur at the moment, I suggest that he should leave the charges for telephone services at their present level. The people will become more and more telephone-minded. He will get more subscribers and eventually we shall have more subscribers and a very efficient service, so that in the long run the Minister will get a better revenue.

As a rural Deputy, I am pleased with the postal vans. They are doing good work. It is possible now in the locality in which I live to write your letters during the day—and I live three miles from a town—and still be able to post your letters at 5 or 6 o'clock in the afternoon. That was not possible some years ago. There is one point which I should like to make in regard to these postal vans. Some of them on express work are passing letter-boxes quite unnecessarily, in my opinion. About a year ago I asked a question in this House with regard to a post-box which had recently been erected in Scarawelsh in my constituency. I asked why the postal van, on its way to Enniscorthy or back again, did not collect the letters from that particular box. I was told that they could not do so because they were on express service. That does not make sense to me. If you have a letter box there and if a van goes by on its way to another town surely it would not take very much time to pull up and collect the letters from that box. There may be other similar cases.

There are 20 other boxes on the same road.

If the van is passing, does the Deputy consider that it would be out of place for it to stop and collect the letters from the box? Has he anything against the people in Scarawelsh?

Why not collect the letters from all of the boxes?

Certainly, I am wholeheartedly with the Deputy there. The van could start a little earlier and the letters could be collected from all the boxes.

The van would not get to Dublin until morning.

Savings. The Minister has mentioned a new drive for savings.

Saving what?

I think that the principle is sound but, for people to save, they must have a little extra money in their pockets.

Hear, hear!

The position in the country at the moment is that nobody has any extra money to jingle. Practically every citizen of this State is wondering how to balance his or her particular budget. With one hand the Government, of which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is a member, is emptying the pockets of its citizens by way of taxation; on the other hand he is suggesting they should save. I suggest that the principle is sound but as long as the general policy to which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs subscribes as a member of the Government, is pursued, I do not think there will be any money in the pockets of the citizens to save.

They are saving, Deputy.

Naturally there is some saving. We have not reached the stage, thank goodness, when there is no saving at all. However, I do not think there is any great increase in savings as I read the Minister's statement here. Deputy Corish has mentioned the congestion in post offices on busy days. I think that is a very good point indeed. It is my experience that on busy days, pension day, which is Friday, and children's allowances day, which occurs, I think, on the first Tuesday of the month, you have considerable congestion in post offices. I have seen people in there standing in a queue—and in fact, I have done so myself—to try to get a stamp. It is not a thing that happens every day and I would not suggest that the Minister should deal with it by employing extra permanent staff. It has long been the custom of the banks on busy days, such as fair days, to bring an extra hand from a bigger centre to deal with the rush of business that occurs on such a day. I suggest to the Minister that on these particularly rushed days I mentioned he should bring into the particular office concerned an extra hand. It would be a simple thing to do and it would be economical. It would facilitate the public and greatly increase the efficiency of the local offices.

In conclusion, I know I have criticiseda good deal but I have said this last year and I say it again: I have always found that the Minister is efficient, courteous and helpful. Anything in reason I have asked him to do he tried to do for me. I think he has done his best and that he has done good work with regard to the extension of the telephone services, and so forth.

This is a Department which has so many problems that one would not know where to commence or end. It is a Department that hardly ever makes money and that is an important matter which concerns us all. It is a Department that seems to be always losing money and it is time that we had a complete review to see what is the cause of that. We are told that as it is losing money we must increase telephone and telegram charges and the price of stamps. That, to my mind, is the wrong approach to the problem of obtaining revenue. I hope the Minister will review the position before he starts putting on further increases on the public. If the telephone charges go much higher the people will not use the telephone. He ought to take his headline from the last Budget. When the prices of cigarettes, tobacco and beer were increased the people gave up smoking and drinking, so that the Minister's last position was worse than the first.

I am glad to see that telephones are being installed in most post offices, in my area anyway. The people welcome these improvements, but I am not satisfied that we should rest at that. We should not allow a telephone to remain hanging on the side of a wall in some old thatched house where there is no privacy for those who wish to use it. The facilities in the remoter areas are not as good as those in central post offices such as are in Trim, Navan or Kells. Very often people have private and confidential matters to discuss on the telephone and they do not want three or four people with their ears cocked listening to their conversation. If people in towns are entitled to kiosks people in the country areas are also entitled to them to ensure privacy. I would like to see more privacy in this regard. I do not liketo see telephones hanging up beside a fireplace where there are three or four people listening to a private or personal conversation. As time goes on something should be done to afford the same privacy to people in the country as is afforded to them in the towns.

The delivery of mails is certainly something that is a cause of grievance in many areas. As far as my own area, which is over 25 miles from Dublin, is concerned, the arrangements are all right. We receive our mail about 10.30 a.m., which is not too bad, but in the Summerhill area I see the postman going around at 3 or 4 p.m. in the afternoon delivering letters. I would ask the Minister why a postman is delivering letters in a place about 25 miles from Dublin at such a late hour in the day. I feel that there is a certain amount of slackness and inefficiency there. Apparently, the mail comes from Dublin down to Enfield before it is brought back to Summerhill. It should be possible to bring it direct because the bus passes the post office in the morning and evening, and there is no reason why there should not be facilities so that an important little village could get an earlier post.

Sub-post offices are becoming more important as the telephone and other services are being installed. In the past, many of these offices were very much out of date and some of the people who ran them did not know very much about them. However, people in charge now must be a more educated type and there should be a general desire for advancement. Some post offices are very obsolete. Some of the people having telephones installed know very little about them, but what we pay these sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses is a ridiculously low sum, something like £1 or 30/- a week. We are told that they have other means of livelihood. They may have a little sweet shop but the turnover would be very small and in many cases what they are getting is only equivalent to home assistance. If we want our post offices run on better lines we must increase the pay of those in charge of them. They should be paidaccording to the services they are giving, and undoubtedly they are giving good service. The post offices are not as they were 20 or 30 years ago. Considering all the extra work that is being passed on to them in recent years, postmasters and postmistresses should be in receipt of better remuneration and should be paid in accordance with justice. They are receiving £1 or 30/- a week for honest, efficient and hard work. Most of those people are at very high tension, and having had a telephone brought in they find it necessary to ring to different cities and towns all over the country, which is quite a strain on their nerves. They should be paid a minimum of £2 or £3 a week for the services they give.

By right, in most country post offices a trained assistant should be there to help with the work. Of course, with the remuneration the sub-postmaster and sub-postmistresses receive it just cannot be done. Every effort should be made to see that these post offices are brought up to date by affording these people the assistance to run the post office in accordance with modern ideas.

The appointment of temporary postmen is another crux. I know some postmen who have given 15, 20 and 25 years' service and when an appointment in the area comes to be made these people are not given that appointment. They cannot get an appointment unless they agree to go to some other area. Therefore, we find that a postman is appointed in a permanent capacity and he may be sent 30 or 40 miles away from his own area. He may be a married man but he cannot bring his family with him because he has no place to take them and has to lodge somewhere at great inconvenience to himself. It is my opinion that if a temporary postman has given good service over a period of 15 or 20 years he should be appointed permanently in his own area. All over the country we have men of a fine calibre working as temporary postmen. They are honest and decent people working in summer and winter, but when an appointment of a permanent nature comes to be made these men cannot get it unless they are preparedto move 30 or 40 miles away. These men have their roots in their own area. We should not uproot them and take them out of the district. My belief is that we should appoint them in a permanent capacity in their own areas wherever it is possible to do so. The Minister should review the position of temporary postmen and where a vacancy occurs and a suitable temporary postman is available, he should be appointed, whether he is a local man or otherwise. These men are generally married and if not, they are maintaining either a father or mother and so far from trying to uproot them out of their homesteads, we should try to help them.

I would ask the Minister to see that there is a complete review of the situation before he starts increasing charges for any service because there is a danger of going too far. Wireless licences have already been increased from 12/6 to 17/6 and perhaps before the next Budget is disposed of they may be increased to £1. We shall, therefore, be paying an additional fee of 5/- or 7/6 simply for the opportunity of listening to the B.B.C. and nothing more. We are told that we need not look for any additional expenditure by the Department, as it is always losing money, but I am satisfied that a review is needed in the case of the smaller post offices to ascertain if we can do something to provide better remuneration for sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses. At present they are giving excellent service for hopelessly small pay, and were it not for the fact that they are generally able to supplement their salaries by conducting a little shop or providing some other service for the people, they would not be able to carry on at all. I am certainly satisfied that the Minister is making every effort to improve matters so far as the resources at his disposal permit. He is courteous and efficient and he is doing his best to bring things into shape but there is a lot of shaping to be done in this Department. We know he cannot do it all, since we are faced with the question of where the money is to come from.

Now that telephones are being installed all over the country, we wantto see the same facilities given to country districts as are provided in towns and that adequate privacy is afforded to callers. People who are making calls should not be subjected to the inconvenience of having old gossipers sitting around listening to what they have to say. They do not want to avail of telephone facilities under these conditions whereas if adequate privacy is provided they will certainly use the telephone much more extensively and in that way the service will earn more money. I would again ask the Minister to ensure that country areas get the same facilities as the bigger areas.

I did not intend to speak in this debate at all but I was rather amused to hear so much talk about the wretched conditions and pay of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses, remembering the terrible rumpus that is created and the number of applications that come pouring in for these jobs when one becomes vacant. We all remember Ballinalee and Baltinglass, the rumpus that was created in these districts and the number of applications for the vacant positions. It amuses me, as a Dublin Deputy, if things were so bad as they were described by other speakers, why there should be so many applications. I may say, however, that I am satisfied from what I know of sub-postmasters in rural areas—I do know one in Deputy Giles' constituency—that they should be better paid. At the same time the question arises, why there are so many applications for these positions if things are so bad? I think that is a sensible question.

I will say that sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses do handle a great deal of money, considerably more nowadays than formerly, as a result of having to make payments in respect of children's allowances and the other social benefits introduced in recent years. Where you have people who are not well paid handling a good deal of money, there is always temptation, and an effort should be made to remove that temptation by paying them adequate salaries. There is an old saying that there is a danger in thecase of people who are not well paid of mixing their own threepenny bits with the Post Office threepenny bits, and that is a danger we should guard against. When I was connected with a certain staff, from a trade union point of view, I made that case on behalf of clerks handling money. They were handling big sums, and as a representative of the union, I made a claim that, as they were handling a good deal of money, temptation should not be put in their way. I am glad that this particular staff did get the increase they wanted. So far as the Minister is concerned, if he tells us that it will be necessary to increase charges in order to provide money for this particular purpose, I think there would be very little opposition from any side of the House if it were made clear that the money was intended to provide better pay.

That brings me to the question of appointments. Deputy Dillon made some reference to the effect that these appointments depended on the colour of the card in an applicant's pocket. I think, however, he would agree that the Minister's predecessor set up a selection committee and that the present Minister is greatly influenced by that selection committee. The committee, as I said, was set up by his predecessor, and I take it that he certainly listens to what the selection committee has to say, and is influenced by their advice. I think he is one Minister who will listen to any reasonable case no matter what Deputy Esmonde said.

If the Deputy could only see the far-away look in Deputy Allen's eye.

I do not know anything about Deputy Allen's eye. I am not an optician and I have no qualifications for examining eyesight.

If you knew as much about Fethard-on-Sea as Deputy Allen did.

Deputy Corish had one or two points to make when he mentioned Wexford, particularly in regard to post offices in licensed premises. I think it is wrong, not because I am a Pioneer, to have a postoffice in licensed premises, even if the licensed premises is in another part of the same building. A licensed premises should be for the sale of beer and spirits and beer and spirits only. We do not want to see people drawing their few shillings allowances and then moving down to the next counter to spend it on beer. I take the same line in regard to this matter as I took in regard to slot machines when I advocated their removal from shops in the city. A certain temptation exists when you have people drawing a pension at one counter if they can move a few steps to another counter to spend it on drink.

Ask Deputy Allen's views.

I am quite well able to make my own case and I am making it in the best manner I can. I agree with Deputy Corish that a post office should not be conducted in a licensed premises. I do not know what the Minister has to say in that regard. Wexford is a long way from my constituency but I have a great regard for Deputy Corish and I think that he is sincere in urging that a post office should not be carried on in a licensed premises. I also agree with the Deputy that the stamps recently issued were certainly too large.

I should like to congratulate the Minister in his effort to step up the delivery of letters. I have a number of friends and relations in Donegal and they tell me that there has been a great improvement in the case of letters posted in Donegal. Most of them get to Dublin four to five hours quicker than heretofore. I think the Minister is making an honest effort to improve services throughout his Department and I do not think he is open to much criticism on that score. Like Deputy Esmonde, I have made very few representations outside the usual representations to enable people to get telephones. I must say that the position in Dublin has improved a little and more instruments are being supplied. The Minister is making a good effort and deserves all our thanks.

I think I can safely say that most sections of the community will be shocked to hear that it is proposedto increase the postage, the rate of telegrams and the cost of telephones. Coming so shortly after we had hoped that a final adjustment had been made, the effect of this on the ordinary member of the community will be to take a little more from the very little he has in order to balance his budget. I should say that it will not be any great help to the Save your Money campaign that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has announced and by means of which he hopes to induce people to invest in the Post Office. There are people who were hard put, especially people with small businesses who use the Post Office, the mail, the telegram or the telephone year by year to contact their clients. They will be very hard put now to make ends meet not to speak of putting a little bit away in the Post Office. Certainly the big business people will not be so seriously affected. They will certainly put it down to cost of production and pass it on to the ordinary consumer as an increase that was unavoidable.

I should have expected that the increase in the number of persons using the mail and the telephone would have at least justified a standstill, if not a reduction, in overheads. We all know that wages have to be increased but apparently the Minister is now proposing to recover some of those wage increases by putting up the cost of mails, telegrams and telephones. Might I suggest that he may find he is killing the goose that laid the golden egg and that he will have to finance these increases in some other way?

The last speaker congratulated the Minister on the earlier delivery of mails in Donegal. I would suggest that the Minister would direct his attention to the County Waterford. In my town mails are now being delivered more than an hour and a half later than they were 30 years ago. That is very poor progress and redounds neither to the credit of the present Minister nor that of previous Ministers for Posts and Telegraphs.

While I am speaking on that matter, I might mention that our urban council decided to draw the attention of the Minister's postmasters in the area to that position but they got back whatI would suggest is a sharp critical letter, implying that there was no justification at all for their protest and that rather should they mind their own business. I should not think the Minister would tolerate any of his officers replying to fair criticism of his Department in that manner. We all find it the common experience that if you submit to the postmaster of a town for transmission to his superior officer any comment in the shape of criticism or suggestion you will invariably get a reply denying all responsibility, alleging there was no delay and if there was a delay that it was your fault and not theirs at all. Perhaps, that may be accountable for the fact that the people responsible for what has been complained about are the people who investigate the complaints.

In regard to complaints, I would suggest to the Minister that some independent officer of his who would not take part in any of the blame that might be apportioned should be detailed to investigate the complaint. I would seriously suggest to the Minister that complaints in respect of his Departments, his officials, or of the service they give should be treated in the way a good businessman treats complaints. They should be welcomed as pointing out defects or indicating where better services could be given.

My experience of the Post Office for a number of years, especially since I became a Dáil Deputy, has been that, when you lodge a complaint, you are looked upon as being a person who was offending. Surely the lodging of a complaint is not of itself an offence but something that should be welcomed by the Post Office staff and something that should be investigated and cleared up to the satisfaction, if possible, of the people complaining? Complaints should not be, as I have seen very often, the occasion for offensive replies.

I would agree with many of the speakers who suggested that sub-post-mistresses and sub-postmasters should get an increased allowance. They have to perform responsible work and unfortunately too often we read in the daily newspapers of cases where those unfortunate officials were driven intoerrors that led to the police court. I am suggesting that a good part of this is due to the fact that the money they get is not in proportion to the responsibility of the work they do.

In connection with rural postmen, all I can suggest is that the auxiliary postman as we know him to-day should be dispensed with. He is the man who gets a sum, varying from 30/- to £2, for approximately two or three hours per day for a number of days of the week. He obviously cannot be classified as a full-time employee. Neither can he be classified as an unemployed man. He is neither fish nor flesh and is certainly not good red herring in any shape or form. He is a badly paid worker who has not sufficient work to occupy him fully. I would suggest that an amalgamation of districts should be arranged so that we would have at least a whole-time postman who would do possibly the work of two part-time auxiliary postmen.

Deputy Gallagher referred to the appointment of auxiliary postmen and congratulated the Minister for acting on the advice of his selection committee. I would like to ask the Minister if he invariably makes it a point of accepting the person nominated as the most suitable by that same selection committee or whether it is correct to say that he only acts and hides behind that selection committee when it agrees with his own particular views or the views that he thinks will find the favour of his Party? I have heard it stated by the Minister, in answer to questions in connection with the appointment of auxiliary postmen, that that was the nomination of the selection committee. On other occasions I noticed that there was no mention of the selection committee but that such and such a man was appointed because he had service with the F.C.A. or some other branch of the emergency services. On other occasions he was appointed because of health reasons. On still other times he was appointed without any reason at all being given. I am led to suspect that the selection committee serves only as a cover when the particular individual selected is the nominee ofthat selection committee. I would like to see all appointments made without political favour or flavour. The test should be made by an independent selection committee and the best man, in its opinion, appointed.

I have noticed during the past year or so, in a number of our towns, that the Post Office men have been engaged in laying underground telephone wires. The Minister's Department is to be congratulated on that because it will mean that people using the telephones will not have to suffer the inconvenience of interruptions, due to a break-down of the system during stormy weather. A further extension of that work should be undertaken. The capital outlay involved would be quickly recovered since the cost of maintenance would be likely to be a great deal less than where the overhead wires are in use.

I should also like to see a further extension of the hours for the telephone service in rural post offices. In the past, so far as our small towns and villages are concerned, the local post offices closed at an early hour. During the last year or so the closing hour was extended to 10 o'clock. Since then something exceptional has happened. Up to a year ago, when one could not make a telephone call at the post office in a rural town, one was able to do so at the local Garda barracks. The facilities there were always courteously afforded to callers especially in cases of urgency. Within the past year, however, the strength of many of these Garda stations has been reduced, and the barracks are closed at 7.30 in the evening. In order to meet that situation I think a further extension of the telephone service in rural post offices should be made to meet the requirements of the people. It would be greatly appreciated by them.

I would ask the Minister to take note of another point in connection with the telephone service in the rural areas, many of which are connected with the central exchange by a single line. If a private subscriber is using the line and another person in the post office requires to make a call, he has very often to wait for a considerable time. I think there is need for an improvementthere. We know, of course, that such an improvement is going to cost money, but I suggest that service should be the aim of the Post Office. One remedy would be a double line service to the central exchange.

A number of Deputies have referred to the telephone kiosks. I suggest that, in all fairness to the people who use them, the position should not be such that their private business can become public property within two minutes of their leaving the kiosk. The fact that that happens is due to the faulty material used in the construction of those kiosks. There is one on a public square in a central position in the town in which I live. The person using it can be heard speaking by people two or three yards away from the box. That is something which the Department cannot be proud of. The number of kiosks should be increased in all our towns, so that all our citizens will have telephone facilities available to them without being obliged to make their calls either at a Garda station or at the house of a private subscriber. The Department in providing such facilities should not set as its standard what the cash reward will be.

I have from time to time addressed questions to the Minister with regard to the provision of more kiosks in working-class built-up areas in Waterford City, and in places like Tramore, and other towns and villages in my constituency. The Minister's reply has been that a check has been made by his Department which indicates that the number of people likely to avail of the service would not be sufficient to justify the cost involved. It should be the responsibility of a State Department to provide the service apart altogether from the monetary reward likely to be achieved.

Or increase the price of telephone calls?

The Minister has announced his intention of doing that.

The Deputy wants telephone kiosks that will not pay.

How arethey to know that until they have been put up?

Yes, we do know.

Deputy Kyne said that whether they pay or not they should be provided.

I should like to say to Deputy Cunningham that I do not very much mind whether they pay or not, or whether the Minister puts up telephone charges or not, but I want to warn him that, if he puts the charge up beyond a certain figure, his last state will be worse than his first, as the Minister for Finance found when he increased the tax on whiskey. In conclusion, I would like to say that, in general, the Post Office is giving a pretty good service, apart from the small points I have mentioned. In my constituency I find the Post Office staffs obliging and courteous, and that the Post Office service is one which the country can be proud of. If I have appeared to be critical on small points, I would like the Minister to accept that criticism in the way in which I suggested his Department should accept similar constructive criticism from the ordinary people outside.

What is the use of the Taoiseach galloping in here to tell us that we have reached the limit of the taxable capacity of the people to pay, if he dispatches the Minister for Posts, and Telegraphs in the following week to say that, that fact notwithstanding, he proposes to increase all the taxes which it is within his power to increase? He is going to increase postal rates, telegraph rates and telephone rates. Who is right—the Taoiseach or the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs?

Somebody said here to-day that the Post Office was always losing money. Are they? I understood that the telephone was a revenue producer. Am I wrong? We all know that the telegraph has for years been losing money, because it is a dying service. Every Minister for the past 15 years would have gladly closed down the telegraph service, but it has been maintained as a public convenience. The paucity of the demand upon it has robbed it of its profit-earning capacity. I think theMinister is right to carry that burden and let the service die gradually, rather than create the public inconvenience that would be created by its peremptory termination. I do not think that telephones are losing money.

To what extent?

The loss this year will be £22,800, and they lost in 1951-52 also.

Wait a moment. There is a little wangle in this. You can make the telephones lose as much as you like by charging up to them the capital cost of telephone installation and extension on certain terms.

The terms have not materially changed, not in the sense the Deputy means.

The increase in capital equipment of the Post Office telephone section under the administration of my colleague, Deputy Everett, changed very materially. We believed in developing this country; we believed it was a good thing to equip this country with telephones; we did not accept the view that this was an amenity to which our people should not aspire. I remember that when Deputy Everett was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs he put in a new cable to Cork and another to Limerick, and that he put in hand the provision of an additional cable to Great Britain. It all goes to the cost of capital, which now is in the process of being repaid. There are two ways in which you can deal with the capital cost. You can abbreviate the period over which the capital is to be redeemed and you can go to the money market and borrow money at 5 per cent. and then watch the National Loan go to 104 and 105 on the stock exchange; you can charge that to the interest on the telephone service and drop in here to tell us that it is losing money and then increase the rates.

The telephone service lost money before the rate was increased. I hope the Deputy will actin the same way as other Deputies and will not try to drag budgetary policy into this debate. If he had been here he would have heard that I admitted that neither Deputy Everett nor myself was responsible for the deficits arising in the ordinary course. They were affected by the budgetary policy. The Deputy is the first one to try to bring budgetary policy into the general discussion.

I am a simple man. "Taxes is taxes." I do not care whether they are taxes under the Budget or under the Post Office or any other kind of taxes.

The Deputy is entitled to do this and he will get his answer, if he chooses to be the first Deputy to bring budgetary policy into this. It has never been done in the history of the Post Office.

Am I not displaying heroic patience? He will be telling me afterwards I have a very rough tongue and I think my attitude to him is positively angelic. I accept the simple philosopy that "taxes is taxes." If the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is promoted to the assignment of putting his hand in my pocket to take out my substance, I find it no more agreeable to surrender that substance to him than I do to surrender it to the Minister for Finance.

I have heard a series of Deputies speak with emotion of the courtesy and gentility of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs—many aeons of time have passed since anyone said that about the Minister for Finance—but it does not make taxation any easier to bear when it is imposed by Order, politely and with gentility. The tax still has to be paid.

Talking of politeness and gentility, I think I may properly say, in passing, that my experience has not been the same as Deputy Kyne's in regard to any complaint I have had to make to the Department about defective service. In all the correspondence I have had with that Department, both in business and in the course of political duty, I have never found any reluctance on the part of the Departmentcarefully to investigate any failure of service and freely to admit the fault, if fault there was, and effectively to amend it. It is right, if that be the experience of some of us, that we should record it.

I want to ask the House this simple question. If the true purpose of the Minister was to redress a deficiency of £22,000 in the revenue of the telephone service, how should he go about it? Is it by increasing the capacity of the telephone system or is it by deterring the subscribers from availing of it, by making the service more expensive? Was there ever anything dafter than to increase the telephone charges, at a time when there is a fight that 40 could join in to get a trunk call? Do Deputies realise the primitive standards of trunk service that obtain in this country? Do Deputies realise that if they picked up the telephone in New York City and desired to speak to a person in Los Angeles, the operator would not ask them to lay down the instrument? Do Deputies realise that if they picked up the instrument in Chicago and asked for a man by name and told the operator they understood he was in Florida, they would go down the Florida coast asking in all the Florida resort hotels was Mr. So-and-So there, until they found him—with the additional service that if the caller was a lady they would ask the gentleman in Florida if his wife knew where he was, before they connected them?

They increased their charges by 28 per cent. in a few years, having done all that.

I do not know what their charges began at. If the Minister would agree to convert dollars into sterling, notionally, at least, that intervention by him would have some significance. If you begin by charging a penny in New York and increase it to 1¼d. and begin by charging 3d. in Dublin and increase it to 4d. it is quite true that the percentage increase may be larger in New York but the burden is heavier to carry in Dublin.

What I am trying to point out is that we have a very low standard of service here. I am not blaming anybodyfor that, but I am saying that, before you seek to make revenue balance charges, you ought to raise the standard of your service to a point which would make anybody who contemplated using it desirous of using it. I would sooner get a tooth filled in this country than make a trunk call.

It takes an unconscionable time to get connected and almost invariably at the crucial moment somebody either asks you a wholly irrelevant question and you discover that he has been connected to your telephone by mistake or stygian silence falls. Both of you then frantically try to make a connection, whereupon both operators say that both telephones are engaged and they cannot make it out. One subscriber then resumes a philosophical calm, puts his instrument back and waits for the other to come raging through, only to go through exactly the same performance all over again. Then, I must say, usually the courteous and friendly voice of the trunk operator is to be heard exhorting you to get off the line, on the ground that there is a queue of people all frantically trying to use the same line as you are using. Is it any wonder they lose £22,000 a year? If any shopkeeper in this city put goods in his shop, and, when his customers came in to buy them, lined them up in a queue and told them to wait and like it, would he expect to make a profit?

A wholly libellous statement about the vast part of the telephone service. I am surprised that the Deputy should make it.

What is a libellous statement?

The Deputy's last statement. It is a wholly libellous statement.

My description of a trunk call?

It is a wholly libellous statement but I am not really surprised at the Deputy making it.

It is mild.

It is wholly libellous.

It is extremely charitable.

The Deputy should ask his Cork colleagues, for example, whether it is true of Cork calls.

The whole population of this country does not live in Cork or yet in Dublin.

There are a lot of them here.

The Minister thinks apparently that the only two centres of population between which trunk telephone service should be used are the urban centres of Cork and Dublin.

It is untrue of Lifford and Galway, if the Deputy wants to move from one area to another.

Would the Minister come to Mayo and tell us about it?

We ought to give Deputy Dillon an opportunity.

Let him continue his libels, Sir.

I shall be interested to hear other rural Deputies reciting their experiences of the trunk telephone to the Minister.

They all said it was enormously improved. The Deputy was not here.

The Minister would have kittens if anybody else interrupted him as he is interrupting Deputy Dillon.

To do the Minister justice, I am perhaps inviting him to battle. The more deeply he commits himself in this matter, the more furious will become the indignation of the thousands of citizens who have suffered the miseries that most of us suffer when our business requires us to make and to complete a trunk call. I am not blaming anybody, as I have said before. I merely wish that the Minister would awaken to the fact that it is urgently necessary that he should continue to prosecute the policyinitiated by his predecessor, Deputy Everett, and do for the rest of the country what Deputy Everett did for the Cork-Dublin circuit. If that were done for the whole country, I believe that a very much more remunerative revenue would come to the Minister from reducing charges instead of increasing them.

I want to suggest to the House nothing could be more retrograde or more obscurantist than the policy of raising charges, on the grounds that the present traffic is not yielding a profit. The wise course is to increase facilities in the certainty that growing traffic will carry the charges. Who amongst us who lives outside an urban centre but knows the story referred to by, I think, Deputy Kyne to-night of the single line going into an exchange?

How many small towns in Ireland are connected to exchanges of the standing of Sligo, Athlone or Ballinasloe by a single line, with consequent intolerable delay in sending or receiving a trunk call? Nothing is more disastrous for a Minister of State than when he suffers himself to be persuaded that what he wants to believe is true. I am astonished to discover that the Minister is unaware of the character of the trunk service in rural Ireland, and his colleagues in his own Party would do him a service, if they do not care to speak of it in public, if they drew him aside and told him of it in private, because it is by remedying that defect that adequate revenue in this matter will be raised.

I want to say most emphatically that I think it is a gross abuse to raise these charges at the present time, and I suggest that it is an act of effrontery for the Head of the Government to declare that, in the considered judgment of the Government over which he presides, the limit of the people's taxable capacity has been reached, and then to send in a Minister of that Government to announce taxes designed to raise a very considerable sum of money at the expense of the whole community, but in a form which constitutes a charge, and a very substantial charge, on trade and business, which will ultimately find its way back, as all other such charges do, as a burden onthe only industry that earns for our people, the only industry in this country, practically, that is not a social service dragging out of the people— agriculture. We hear the Minister for Agriculture telling people down the country that unless we reduce costs of production and increase efficiency we will be squeezed out of one market after the other and that there is no other remedy but to reduce the cost of production. Every charge in these proposals will impinge in greater or lesser degree on every case of eggs that is shipped from a rural egg store to Eggsports for a destination in Great Britain.

Now, of course, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs does not know and does not care that that charge will be borne by the exporter of eggs. No later than to-day I said to a solicitor whom I was trying to rouse, outside Dáil Éireann: "You will be glad to hear that you are going to get a chance to contribute further to the revenue through your postage stamp, your telegram and your telephone," and he looked at me blankly and said: "My heart bleeds for my clients." He had no illusions who was going to pay the extra charge. Do not imagine that the egg shipper is going to pay it. Do not imagine that the person who has to use these facilities for the marketing of agricultural produce is going to pay it. It will be passed on to the only person who has no one to whom he can pass it on, that is, the man who keeps the fowl to produce the eggs. He would pass it on to the fowl if he could, but the fowl have a very effective method of protesting against that procedure: they would go on strike; no victuals, no eggs. If the farmer tries to go on strike we know what happens to him—Mountjoy yawns for him. So he pays. I say it is an outrage.

Do you think that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs desired to levy that charge? Do you think there has not been a struggle going on for months between the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and the Minister for Finance? Does no one but myself hear the voice of Esau and see the hand as well?

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphsappears before us, not as a temporary postman, but as a temporary tax collector, and when he has that job done he will be allowed to return to his mailbags. But, he should not do that job. He should stand on what the Head of his Government said, that we had reached the limit of our people's taxable capacity, and he should have told the Minister for Finance that if he did not agree with that proposition he should take a running jump at himself until such time as his Fianna Fáil colleagues preferred him to Deputy Lemass and Deputy Dr. Ryan for the succession when Deputy de Valera choose to lay down the office of Taoiseach.

Now I want to raise another point, Sir, and I think it is an important one. Deputy Kyne, with an engaging ingenuousness, said that he wanted the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to tell him and to tell him truly when appointments fell to be made of temporary officers in his Department did he suffer his mind to be coerced by the recommendation of the appointments committee established by Deputy Everett or did he on occasion exercise a separate discretion. Deputy Gallagher from Dublin came in. He is a frank and open man but he had the misfortune to intervene in the debate very shortly after he came into the House and he told us honestly and truly his views about the location of sub-post offices in public houses. He told of the evils that ensue therefrom and how he would not wish to see a widow's pension or an old age pension or any of the other distributions that habitually take place at the post office under the various social services dispursed at the sub-postmaster's bar. Deputy Allen was sitting below him and in Deputy Allen's constituency there is a place called Fethard-on-Sea and recently, to the amazement of all beholders, the post office was changed in Fethard-on-Sea and, low and behold, where did the new post office blossom forth but in the only public house in Fethard-on-Sea. Urgent measures were taken. Plywood was purchased. Partitions were erected and I am told that they have divided the public house in Fethard-on-Sea and now, if you want to proceed from the proprietor's postoffice counter to the bar, you must wear goloshes and carry your umbrella because you have to go round the partition. Heretofore, you could keep under cover as you made the journey.

You must have had a jar there yourself, had you? You would have made a good descriptive journalist. I take it you were there?

You will hear all about it from Deputy Allen.

The Deputy is not fond of partitions.

Deputy Dillon is not fond of partitions, is he?

I am sure every Deputy will feel convinced by me that in this case the well-known legal aphorism, res ipsa loquiter,applies. These circumstances must make it manifest to all that this choice was made by an objective disinterested Civil Service Commission. Perish the thought that anything else entered in, even when we come to know that this new sub-postmaster of Fethard-on-Sea is closely connected in no insignificant degree with that centre of Irish nationalism, the Fethard-on-Sea Fianna Fáil Cumann.

The Old I.R.A. It makes all the difference.

That is the qualification. I want to tell Deputy Gallagher what the facts are. The appointments commission in the Post Office is the alibi. I know what obtained in the old days and I think it is well to refresh the House's memory because I want to make this case to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, that two courses can be defended in connection with temporary appointments in his Department. You can make the case for the patronage system over and above board or you can make the case for establishing the equivalent of the local appointments commission and stripping the Minister of all discretion in the matter altogether. Neither of these systems will, in my judgment, seriously affect public morality in thiscountry. But what corrupts and rots public morality is the fraudulent alibi, the pretence that these appointments are made by a disinterested and objective body independent of the Minister and the established fact well known that the appointments are being made on a patronage basis and that the machinery of objective choice is being converted to the purpose of serving political patronage.

I know whereof I speak. When I became Minister for Agriculture and was quite wet behind the ears, an officer of my Department came to me and asked me whom did I want to appoint, I think to the position of charwoman in Athenry, and I said: "In the name of Providence, what do I know about the charwoman in Athenry?" He said: "The appointment is to be made by you." I said: "How am I to proceed to that duty? Is there anybody in this building who can do that?" He said: "There are plenty who can do it, but it is a prerogative of the Minister and there are many such in connection with minor temporary unestablished appointments of this kind." I said that I understood there was a system long established whereunder appointments of that character were filled through the labour exchange. "Yes," he said, "there are." Then I said: "How do I come into it?""Well," he said, "the procedure was this. Appointments of this character were notified to the Minister. We notified them to a Deputy of the Fianna Fáil Party who was called a patronage secretary. The following week we got back the name of the person to be appointed to that job."

I do not see what the appointment of a charwoman in Athenry has to do with the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

I submit that that is the procedure by which these appointments are at present being made.

The Deputy has told that story on several occasions. I do not see what relation it has to the Estimate of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

I submit it is the procedure at present in operation.

If you think so, there is no need for the reference to patronage in respect of another Ministry and another person.

Surely I may expose to the House how the machinery works. It is very ingenious.

I object to people's names being used who are not members of this House.

Whose names?

The person whose name was used in connection with this incident before.

I am describing certain machinery. The name came back and there was another officer in Dublin Castle whose duty it was to notify the local labour exchange of the chosen person, with instructions that, whoever else he sent up as a candidate for the vacant job, he was to take good care to send up that person and, if he had not him on his book, he was to lose no time in putting him on his book. In due course that person came first of two or three persons sent by the labour exchange and the other persons went home and bewailed their bad luck. Does anybody here doubt that at present where a vacancy exists for a sub-postmaster or a temporary postman the Fianna Fáil Deputy for that area presses the claim of some particular constituent of his? Is it seriously believed by anybody in this House that somebody else is appointed? Of course not.

All I am characterising as evil is the sanctimonious pretence that patronage is no more. I think you can make a case for patronage in these kind of jobs and be honest about it. Then it becomes a question of arguing as to which is the right course to pursue. It is honest to make a case for the old system, but there is no escaping the fact that it rots public morality in this country to pretend that you are adhering strictly to a system characterised by objective self-denial when in fact you are using the well known procedure of patronage, call it what you will.

I ask the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, if he has made up his mind at the pressure of his colleagues in regard to these appointments to make the operation of the selection board no longer politically possible for him, to have the moral courage to get up and say so. I think he will find that the honest approach will command the respect of most people in this country, no matter how profoundly they differ from him in politics and in regard to the expediency of this particular procedure. It would be honest and it would set a headline for speaking the truth in matters of this character, which would be a useful discipline for everybody.

The statement was made 12 months ago.

What statement?

The statement which the Deputy suggests should be made now.

That the patronage procedure is re-established?

The statement was made.

I remember the Minister saying something. I heard clearly what the Minister said. I understood what he meant and I gave him the charity of believing that he was trying to speak frankly. But the fact was that he found it difficult to be as frank as he wished. He actually said: "The procedure which my predecessor in office established is maintained, subject to the overriding discretion of the Minister in such cases as he may think proper suitably to adjust the procedure." The honest thing would have been to say: "I will not carry on that system." Now does Deputy Kyne know the answer?

I will respect the Minister if he will get up and say: "When we came back into office Fianna Fáil wanted the jobs and they have got them." Good, rough, tough Tammany tactics! I like the good, rough, toughTammany boss with his brass spittoon in his dusty smoke-filled office, marshalling his ward leaders with the patronage he has to distribute; but he is not a pretty picture when he assumes the mantle of an archangel and tries to play the part of an archangel down from Heaven who has momentarily lost his way. Let Fianna Fáil keep on their check waistcoat, their hard hat and their chewed cigar and carry their brass spittoons down into their constituencies and boast of what they are. We will respect them for it, honest jobbers to the end, and to blazes with all this fraud of picking them by selection board. Deputy Gallagher has gone. I wonder would he now repeat what he had to say about the circumstances in Fethard-on-Sea?

About drowning the British in eggs.

The parallel is not quite clear to me between exporting eggs and weighing down your own political supporters with such patronage as you dispose of.

Plus the wild exaggeration.

Did I exaggerate? Did the Minister not tell us that it was back to the old, old system of the jobs for the boys? Did he not tell us that? Did he deny that? Look at the boys. They are all blushing. It is quite embarrassing. They have all been going around protesting down the country that with virtue unsullied they have insisted that these posts will be filled with no interests served except the public good. But there was also the subsequent whisper to "come around and see me afterwards." Come up and see me some time. Are you not proud of them? Do they not look proud? See the flashing glory of the Minister as he bites his finger nail. I think he has committed an indiscretion which his colleagues will not like. I will say this to him: I will deal in no trickery with him. Let him wind up his blooming selection board if he wants to, dole out the jobs and I willdefend him. My only complaint is that he keeps the blooming fraud and hides behind it. Get rid of the pretence. The public life will be the purer for the end and the termination of the fraud.

I understand the Minister proposes to take the other Estimates for which he is responsible on some other occasion. I want to say that in my experience of dealing with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs I have always been met with uniform courtesy and it is my desire to help in any way I can. I want to say in all seriousness to the Minister that he is living in a fool's paradise if he believes the trunk telephone service from Dublin to Cork approximates anywhere near to what it should be. I ask him to improve it. I remember year after year complaining here of the intolerable annoyance of dialling "O" and "30". Gloria in Excelsis Deo,that fault at last has been effectively remedied, but it took a long time. Whether credit for that is due to the present Minister or to his predecessor I am not in a position to say. To whomsoever it is due let credit be given. I think we have done a public service this evening in Deputy Kyne asking the question he did ask and in my persuading the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to allow me to answer it for him.

Deputy Dillon seems to fill two functions in this House. His first purpose is to ridicule anything that is Irish and any efforts made by the Irish nation. He has done that effectively to-night by his disparaging remarks on the telephone service. We know that the telephone facilities are not 100 per cent. perfect. On the other hand, we know that the situation is not anything as bad as Deputy Dillon has painted it.

Deputy Dillon's second function is to throw mud in abundance. He revels in doing that. He seems to think that patronage is all right provided no alibi is put forward such as that put forward in defence of the selection board set up to recommend persons suitable for appointment to sub-post offices. I remember Deputy Dillon casting mud when there was noselection board. Now that there is a selection board he says patronage is all right, provided one does not try to hide behind the board. I do not know whether Deputy Dillon relishes the rôle he played to-night or whether it was a distasteful task allocated to him by his new bosses. We will probably hear the other Fine Gael exhaust pipe to-night, Deputy O. Flanagan.

Is he an exhaust pipe?

The Deputy should not refer to any member of this House as an exhaust pipe.

That is a compliment coming from Deputy Gallagher.

To come to the Estimate——

Would it be proper for me to mention from where else should we expect a grunt?

From Deputy Dillon. It is quite a usual procedure that he grunts.

I understood, Sir, censure from you required the withdrawal of the term involved.

I think the Deputy is familiar with exhaust pipes.

There is a number of things on which I wish to congratulate the Minister. The first thing is the speed with which the new telephones have been installed during the year 1952. The figures indicate that 7,234 new telephones have been installed. That is certainly very fine progress indeed and at that rate of going it should not be long until all those demanding telephone facilities will be accommodated. The present figure of outstanding applications is somewhere in the region of 5,000. Should the number of new applications in the coming year be small, it is quite possible at the present rate of going that most of the applicants will be catered for in a very reasonable length of time.

In connection with telephones onevery important development was the fact that sub-post offices all over the country which up to the present had no telephone facilities now have telephones. I forget the number which is still outstanding but I know it is very small. That is something very important in rural areas where private telephones are not numerous, that local sub-post offices, no matter how small they be, should have a telephone. In that connection I would like to add my voice to what Deputy Kyne has said in regard to the facilities heretofore offered by the Garda Síochána barracks, where after the close-down of the post office in the evening the Garda barracks facilitated in the case of urgent calls. As Deputy Kyne has pointed out, due to a number of things the barracks telephone is not available after 9 p.m. in many rural areas. In view of that fact I wonder would the Minister make some arrangement, where that situation exists in the barracks, for these sub-post offices to take urgent late calls.

The third matter on which I wish to congratulate the Minister is the very fine job he has made of postal deliveries to County Donegal. In many cases the delivery has been speeded up by 12 hours. To most parts of my constituency letters posted in Dublin arrive the following morning. As well as that improvement in the postman's delivery times has been made, with the result that the postal delivery service is very satisfactory. There may be some areas that have not got the full advantage of it up to now but generally it is a very fine advance in delivery both from Donegal to Dublin and the other way around.

Before I get away from telephones I would say that there is an area in my county where telephone service is very bad indeed, that is, the Inishowen peninsula. It is necessary that some minimum steps should be taken to cater for subscribers there. Actually I know several cases where persons desiring to make urgent calls have to cross into the Six Counties and avail of the nearest telephone kiosk there. That applies to the Inishowen area. It is not general, but I am sure a speedy improvement will take place.

Listening to the Minister I was gladto hear that an increase had taken place in the number of Savings Certificates sold during the year. I was glad to hear also that publicity was being given to the spread of the habit of having Savings Certificates. The Minister should make available to national schools publicity which would encourage in the pupils there the habit of saving and that particular method of saving. It is very important that at school-going age children should be taught the advantages of saving and methods by which saving can be effected.

I agree with another Deputy who said that auxiliary postmen were of necessity badly paid because the number of hours they work is small, and something should be done to remedy that. As a matter of fact, I do not believe we should have any auxiliary postmen at all, because not alone are the wages bad but their security of tenure is bad. As regards a man who has given, say, 14 or 15 years' service as an auxiliary postman and who is a married man with a family—in some cases possibly able to augment his salary by work on a farm—it is sad to see that man being thrown out of his job having given that service. It has happened very often. I know a number of cases where a temporary or auxiliary postman who had quite a long number of years service as postman had his services dispensed with after that period. That is hard luck, because in some cases he had reached an age where it was not possible to find alternative employment.

I think some of the other speakers mentioned the size of the two recent issues of Post Office stamps. I am not worrying too much about the size though I admit that they take a lot of licking. I have one complaint in regard to the Moore stamp and that is that it does not tear easily along the perforated edges and is inclined to tear across the middle instead.

It is generally agreed that wages are low in the lower grades of the postal service. I feel that a special effort should be made to adjust wages in these lower grades. Representations have been made to me by members ofthe Post Office Workers' Union and I have been given figures of the numbers of persons in receipt of under £4 per week, under £6 per week and so forth. I must say that the figures are fairly hefty. I received a letter and a memorandum from the secretary of the Post Office Workers' Union. He mentioned everything in that letter and memoradum except increases for Post Office workers. He was worried about the implementation in full of the Civil Service Arbitration Award but he did not point out the specific salaries of Post Office workers in the lower grades. That is by the way, but there is a case too, for increases for sorters, clerks and so forth in the Post Office service.

The increases mooted for postage, 'phone calls and telegrams is something that we——

——do not like. However, I do not want to adopt the attitude which other Deputies adopted of maintaining that we should provide more 'phones, more telephone kiosks and so forth and yet that we should not be allowed to raise the money with which to make these facilities available. I should like to put this point to Deputies. Up to now, those who were most in need of telephones were the people who applied earlier. For instance, the applicants in 1950, say, had a greater need for telephones than those who applied in 1952. That means that the 1950 applicants required to use the 'phone to a greater extent than persons who applied, say, in 1952 or 1953. The result now is that the cream has more or less been taken off and that telephones installed, say, in the present year will not yield the revenue which was derived from a similiar number of subscribers who applied in, say, 1948 or 1950. That is one point which I should like to make against the argument put forward by Deputy Dillon that we should get the money otherwise and pay it off by the subscriptions of the subscribers.

From the short experience I have had as a Dáil Deputy, I can say, in regard to sub-post offices, that theMinister makes appointments on merit. I know of at least three cases where that principle was followed.

You know of only three appointments on merit. Is that it?

In the past two years. You know, we do not bump off sub-postmasters very often in Donegal. I think, therefore, that Deputy Dillon's criticism was unjust and unfounded.

The Minister in charge of this Department is very energetic. He has improved the postal service and improved many aspects of work in his Department. For these reasons, he must be congratulated.

I have been a member of this House for approximately ten years, and in all that time I have never known a Minister to come to this House and ask for a Vote for his Department—which, in this particular instance, comes to £7,000,000 odd—and indicate that he intends to increase certain charges—some of which he can do by Statute and some by Statutory Orders—and yet not give the House at least an idea of what the increased charges will be.

At the end of his opening speech the Minister told us that telephone charges, telegraph charges and postal rates would be increased. Surely the Minister must know by this time—particularly if he intends to introduce a Bill in respect of an increase in telegraph charges within the next few days—what these increases will be. He comes to this House and asks for £7,000,000 odd to enable him to run his Department during the coming year. I think that it is an extraordinary departure from the custom which has obtained here since 1921 that the Minister should indicate that he intends to increase certain charges and that he does not divulge what these increases will be. I may say that the Minister is the first to take the step in that direction. It is an extraordinary departure from custom. The Minister shakes his head. Can the Minister give the House one instance of this type of thing happening before? If he can, I will be grateful to him fortelling us and I will withdraw what I have said about him.

Twice during the time of the Coalition Government.

I completely disagree with the Minister. It was always the custom of the inter-Party Government to make an open statement and to let the House know exactly what a particular Minister was asking for. I suggest that the present Minister should have done that too. Does he intend to give the information to the House piecemeal next week or the week after? I presume that the postal rate will go up a half-penny. The charge for a letter is 2½d. and I presume that that will be increased to 3d. I do not know what the Minister proposes in relation to telephone and telegraph charges. The use of the telegraph is dwindling because the use of the telephone is increasing. The telephone is more convenient and it is handier. I do not want to comment on increased telegraph charges but, in relation to increasing telephone charges, I would ask if the Minister is wise to do so and whether he thinks that he will get more revenue. I think that the very same thing will happen in relation to increased telephone charges as happened in relation to the revenue from spirits and wines last year as a result of the Minister for Finance's Budget.

I believe that there will be a decreased revenue from telephone charges if the rates are increased. The telephone rates at present are high enough. I think the charges are prohibitive and, if the Minister had the courage to do so, he would perhaps get better results from cutting the present rates. The number of calls would be increased and the revenue would be increased.

It did not work when it was done before.

When was it done before?

There is a considerable gap between 1936 and 1953. The numberof telephones in existence in this country in 1936 was only a small percentage of the number of telephones all over the country to-day, and the disparity will become even more apparent in the next five or six months or the next 12 months, when every rural post office will have a telephone. Every person, no matter how backward the area in which he lives, can now use the telephone and appreciate the use of a telephone. If the Minister could give us the number of calls in 1936 and the number of calls to-day, he would see that there is absolutely no comparison. The number must have been multiplied several times over. I think now that the telephone system has been extended into almost every area, the number of private phones has increased out of all bounds as compared with what it was in 1936 or even 1940. If the Minister were to cut the present charges, I think it would be an experiment well worth trying even for a short period.

I cannot see the use of extending the telephone service at a pretty stiff cost to the State if we are going to put a tax on the use of that service which will be prohibitive. It will not be much comfort to a person, who wants to call a doctor, to see a line of poles and telephone wires laid along the road if he has to use his bicycle or some other mode of conveyance to do his business simply because he is precluded from using a telephone by reason of excessive charges. I think the Minister is approaching the whole question from the wrong end.

I think also that the present postage rate is high enough. The Minister can very glibly tell us that there is a loss in the working of the Department and that the only way to make good the deficiency is to make the Department pay its way. I think the Minister is hamstringing the Department by these increases in rates and is making a wrong approach to the problem of trying to make it pay its way. As Deputy Dillon has already pointed out, the Taoiseach has warned us that the limit has been reached in taxation. It is not so long since we had some very high officials from the Department ofFinance coming before the Civil Service Arbitration Board and making the statement that there had been over-taxation in some cases and full taxation in all. Yet the Minister comes along and absolutely stultifies the statements of all these people by imposing more taxes. Apparently, the taxable capacity of the people has not been fully exploited in all directions to the satisfaction of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and he now follows the example of the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Industry and Commerce in ferreting out some other sections who must be blistered by fresh imposts.

I want to say a word about one of the useful officials we have in the State —the rural postman. In the first place I think that his salary, if it can be called a salary, is not at all commensurate with the amount of slavery peculiar to his work. It is very trying work. In hail, rain or sunshine, he has to be on the job in the morning. We are told that he is only a part-time worker. Perhaps that is so. Nevertheless we should take into account the peculiar nature of his work and the peculiar slavery it involves. The second point I want to make is that while they are allowed to use their own bicycles, I have been informed— I cannot vouch for the truth of this information—that they are forbidden by either a departmental or ministerial regulation to use an auto-bicycle or a motor-bicyle. I should like if the Minister would inform us if that is so and, if it is so, what is the reason for it. For the life of me I cannot see why it should matter whether a rural postman delivering letters from door to door travels by auto-bicycle, motorbicycle or an ordinary bicycle or even, if he were so minded, why he should not travel on a horse bareback.

Or even on Tulyar. I cannot see why there should be such a regulation in existence. I am not clear on the point. and I should like some clarification from the Minister when he is replying. I go further and say that if there is such a regulation,the Minister should draw his pen through it. It is a stupid one. These rural postmen have to travel over all sorts of roads—main roads, secondary roads, third-class roads, boreens and perhaps across fields. Goodness knows if the postman wishes to use an autocycle or a motor-cycle, even if he has to provide it himself, there is no reason that I can see why he should be prohibited from doing so. Ordinarily, these postmen will not be carrying eggs or such fragile goods as are likely to be smashed by the vibration of the machines. If there is such a regulation in existence, I repeat that the Minister should draw his pen through it. I think that the Minister might even see his way to give them some little allowance to enable them to use these machines if they so desire. Many rural postmen have to cover distances of ten miles over every possible kind of terrain. The allowance, which I suggest should be given, would be some small assistance to them and might help to lighten the monotony of their job.

Sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses in the country are miserably paid. While it can be said that they also are only part-time officials, now that telephones are being installed in practically every rural post office, somebody belonging to the household is tied to the post office all day because the telephone hardly ever ceases ringing, even at meal-times. It might be said that they cannot enjoy a meal without danger of interruptions in the way of a telephone call. I suggest that their conditions of service call for a complete overhaul and a complete investigation by the Minister.

A section of the staff about whom I want to say a special word are the telephonists in the exchanges. I have seen them at work on a few occasions and I can say that they are the hardest worked portion of the whole staff. It is all very fine for Deputies to grumble about delays on trunk calls and local calls. Goodness knows, there are delays, and most exasperating delays in some cases, but they are not due to the telephonists at the switch but to faulty equipment. How some of thosetelephone girls stick their job is certainly a puzzle to me. They must have the patience of Job, because they are bewildered by people asking them to get calls through. It is just like trying to drive camels through a keyhole on account of the equipment with which they are working at the present time.

When Deputy Dillon spoke about telephone services for the West, I presume he was talking about his own telephone service from Ballaghadereen. In that connection I can say the same as he said in regard to my own area. The Minister may say that they have installed one of these multi-trunk cables on the line from Cork to Dublin. That may be all right for the people in that area but we have no such thing in the West. Several times I have had to wait one and a half and two hours for a trunk call from my own home to Dublin, despite the fact that up to a short time ago I was paying almost £50 a year for the use of the telephone. I do not lay the blame for that at the door of the staffs. I say it is the fault of the equipment. There are not sufficient lines available to cope with the traffic.

The Minister in his statement said that the lines from Claremorris to Dublin, Galway to Dublin and Sligo to Dublin are well served now, but there is one line which is not—the Castlebar and Westport line. The Ballina line is certainly not well served. I do not see why the Minister should single out Mayo to have a bad service. If the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs provided a little extra accommodation in the matter of lines to take the traffic, increased revenue would result therefrom. Having regard to what we are paying for the use of telephones, the least we might demand is that we would not be one and a half or two hours waiting for a trunk call to Dublin. The telephonists in the various offices do their very best to get the calls through but there are not sufficient lines to carry the heavy traffic. The Minister is losing money by not providing that extra accommodation and very often calls have to be cancelled.

Whilst on the subject of the telephones,I might suggest to the Minister—I have already made this suggestion before—that in rural areas situated long distances from towns a kiosk should be erected somewhere near the post office or at some suitable point along the route which would be available during the night to enable people to ring up the doctor, the priest or the ambulance or to obtain veterinary services. The post office closes down round about 7 o'clock or 8 o'clock and the phone is not available after that time. Very often the owners of private phones come to the rescue. They fulfil a very useful function in their own particular area but it should not be left to them nor should it be left to the Civic Guards. I think that a kiosk should be made available near each rural post office for night use. The erection of such a kiosk would not entail any great cost, engineering difficulties or the provision of a second line. The local postmaster or postmistress could switch over to the kiosk so that people who come along after hours could have the use of the telephone. An ordinary coin box could be installed in the kiosk.

We have now reached the stage where every rural area is provided with a telephone, but it is only half-doing the job if people are deprived of the use of the telephone from 8 p.m. at night until 8 a.m. in the morning. This is the period when neither cars nor messengers are available. That suggestion was made by several Deputies in the past. It was also a suggestion that I put forward and I now repeat it. It is worth a trial in a few areas to see how it works, and if it is a success I do not see why it should not be established. I am not asking the Minister to provide every rural area with such facilities. I merely ask that it be given a trial in a few areas and if it is successful to extend it to as many areas as possible.

I want to refer to the recent issue of the Tóstal stamp. It was a disgrace both from the point of view of size and design. Some Deputies referred to it as being a plaster. That is what it was and that is what it looked like on the envelope. It must have been a source of amusement to people outside thecountry who received envelopes bearing this stamp. It was too big and the design could have been very easily improved upon, having regard to the occasion it was intended to commemorate. It is very hard to beat the ordinary-sized stamp, which is about one inch or three-quarters of an inch. The Tóstal stamp was a nuisance. It was not nice and it looked like a big dab of paint on the corner of the envelope. In my opinion, it reflected no credit on the national festival which has just come to a close.

The bowl of light would have been a better design for the stamps.

At all events, it would not have been a bit more awkward in the corner of the envelope. Might I repeat what I said in my opening remarks in regard to the system of charges? I think the Minister is going the wrong way about increasing the revenue of his Department. If he tried the experiment of reducing the charges particularly in regard to the telephone services he would achieve his end better. I want to see the telephone services and the postal services self-supporting if possible, but the Minister is going the wrong way about doing the job when he proposes to increase the charges. By increasing the charges, he will diminish the use of the telephone. If we are going to establish telephones all over the country and at the same time increase the charges we will prohibit people from using the telephones. If the Minister were to reduce the charges by 33? per cent. the returns would be increased. There is such a thing as overdoing this business of charging. In reply the Minister may tell me that nobody uses the phone for fun; that nobody uses the telephone unless he has to, and that if he wants to use the phone he does not mind paying an extra shilling for a call. I say there will be less use of the telephone. People will get the notion that the telephone is something too dear to use. The Minister would be much wiser to cut the charges and accustom the people to using the telephone more often. In that way he would get the desired increase inrevenue but he is endeavouring to do that now by what I hold to be the wrong means.

I should like if the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs could arrange for three pips after every three minutes for Deputies in this House, because I hope to say what I have got to say within three minutes.

I think the Minister is ill-advised in proposing to increase the charges in respect of stamps, telegrams and telephones. I cannot see, however, any great consistency in Deputies on the other side of the House in looking for increased remuneration for those who are administering these services and, at the same time, in opposing these increased charges.

I have a very serious objection to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, the Minister for Agriculture or any other Minister in coming in here with proposals which have the effect of putting concealed taxation on the public, thereby reducing the burden which should in the ordinary normal way come before us when the Budget proper is introduced. I do not like hidden taxation in any form. These proposals of the Minister are, in my opinion, a form of hidden taxation, calculated to relieve the burden of taxation which is normally imposed under the Budget. On the other hand, as I have said, I cannot agree with the attitude of those on this side of the House who, while advocating increased remuneration and better conditions of employment for those employed in the Post Office, oppose increased charges.

I want to say to the Minister that there are certain areas in the County Cork—the same of course applies to other parts of the country—where, despite these increased charges, there is only a delivery of mail thrice a week. I think that in the year 1953 we should be able to do better than that and have daily deliveries, particularly in view of the fact that modern transport and other facilities which we had not in the past are now available to the Minister's Department. In the Bandon, Timoleague and other areas in my county there is a delivery of mail on only three days a week. I think thatis wrong, and that it should be possible to give a daily delivery.

I would suggest to the Minister that it should be possible to have a faster distribution of telegrams than we have at the moment. The position is that in certain areas when a telegram is received at the local post office, there is no person available to deliver it. That might be a very important telegram concerning an announcement of a death or the illness of some person who required to be removed to hospital. Very often these telegrams are left lying in the post offices for a long time. In some of those rural offices they had, or have, the system of waiting to see a child come out from school and of asking the child to take the telegram to the house for which it is intended. I think that is a bad system and that the Department should be able to organise a better one.

I would like to congratulate the Minister on the many useful things that he has done as far as the postal services are concerned. The Minister, or his Department, has certainly improved the G.P.O. in Cork, as well as a number of other post offices in my area. In conclusion, I would ask him to ensure that a daily delivery of letters is given throughout the country generally. I think that is the least the people are entitled to, especially when it is proposed to ask them to pay more for these services.

I want to protest in the strongest possible manner against the Minister's announcement made to-day that there is to be further taxation so far as postal services are concerned. The Minister and every Deputy sitting in the House know that the peak of taxation has already been reached. Every section of the community is suffering from it. The people are overburdened with taxation. Now we have this further announcement that the charges for postage, telegrams and telephones are to be increased. I want to protest very strongly against the manner and procedure adopted in making this announcement.

I want the Minister to tell me, beforehe concludes, what increased charges he proposes to put into effect between now and August. Fine Gael will strongly and determinedly oppose any attempt to increase these charges. The Minister has not told us what the increased charges will be. He is waiting to do so until the two pending by-elections have been held. Everyone knows quite well that is his reason for not telling us what the increased charges will be. He knows well that the telephone subscribers in Bray and Arklow and those citizens who are at present paying 2½d. for a stamp would make their protest against these increased charges in the ballot-box. Therefore the Minister, probably on the advice of the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste, is keeping from the House details of the increases because of the two pending by-elections. That is the reason for the Minister's refusal to give the information.

I want to assure the Minister that the announcement which he has made will cause great uneasiness to the taxpayersin view of the fact that the Taoiseach, when speaking here on 10th February, told us that the people were staggering practically under the present burden of taxation. I am sure that his Ministers, when listening to him say that, they were under the impression that he was speaking as Head of the Government, and felt that we were finished with increase, whether in respect to telegrams, telephones or other matters. Within three days, however, we knew the value of that statement when we were told that the Government had decided to increase wireless licences from 12/6 to 17/6. Now there is another threat to the unfortunate people of the country. They are told that if they want to use the postal services they will have to dip again into their pockets because more money is to be extracted from them. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, May 1st, 1953.
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