Deputy Kyne has given notice to raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of the private notice question which he addressed to the Minister for Agriculture to-day.
Adjournment Debate. - Butter Supplies to Dublin Wholesaler.
To-day, by way of private notice question, I asked the Minister for Agriculture: Whether he is aware that a certain Dublin butter wholesaler who has been supplying retailers of butter at a price sufficient to permit them to sell butter at 4/1 per lb. has been refused sufficient butter to meet the requirements of his customers by the Butter Marketing Committee, notwithstanding the fact that he is prepared to pay ready cash for all supplies received by him; and, if so, whether he will make a statement on the matter.
The reply of the Minister was that he was investigating the matter and was awaiting a reply from the ButterMarketing Committee. I expressed my dissatisfaction with that because of the fact, which I hope to prove in the time allowed to me, that I knew the Minister was aware of this for some time, and that he had, or should have, been in touch with the Butter Marketing Committee before to-day, and that even if it only came to his notice to-day he could by means of the telephone, have ascertained the facts and got their views so as to be in a position to answer.
I have a further question to ask the Minister which I hope he will answer when replying. It is, if he has knowledge as to whether the Butter Marketing Committee received any representations from any trade association regarding the supply of butter to the Dublin wholesaler who has been selling creamery butter at a price less than the usual wholesale price, and if he will inquire into it if he has knowledge of it.
I believe that is the kernel of my whole case. I asked the Minister a furthere question to-day—I asked him on the usual presumption that a person is innocent until he is found guilty—if he would, as an interim measure, assure me that supplies of butter would be guaranteed to this wholesaler until it was proved that he was an unfit person to receive them, and he replied that he could not give me any such assurance. I think the public interest demands that this successful attempt to prevent a legitimate butter trader from passing on to the consuming public butter at such a price that it can be retailed at 1d. per lb. less than the normal price in the City of Dublin is of such importance that the position cannot be allowed to continue, and that this racket—I can call it nothing else—must be exposed and must be stopped. In my opinion it is in the power of the Minister to stop that, and should the Minister not exercise that power I feel that he must be presupposed to be a party to this desire to prevent the ordinary, poor necessitous people of Dublin from securing butter at a price which is 1d. per lb. lower than the price of the butter normally supplied to them.
Time and again we have heard the Minister for Industry and Commerce exhort our industrialists to increase their production and, by their efficient management, to reduce their costs so that they may be able to pass on to the consumers their products at a reduced price, thus helping the economy of the country, as well as bringing down the cost of living. Here we have a clear case where that was done by an efficient, enterprising trader, but the Butter Marketing Committee, presumably on the suggestion of some other body and with the connivance of the Minister, have defeated that laudable object. I should like to say that all the facts which I propose to give have been sent to the Fair Trade Commission. Proof is ready and will be given in public and everything that I am saying can be substantiated by the people concerned. I think, because of the urgency of the case and of its importance, that the Dáil is the place where the public should know this.
The facts are that Joseph Gallagher, trading as United Packers, 5 Graham Row, Dublin, is a butter wholesaler. He started business in January, 1952. It is necessary, under the conditions of securing supplies from the Butter Marketing Committee, that anyone trading in butter as a wholesaler in Dublin or district should obtain his supplies direct from the Butter Marketing Committee or from some person who has secured supplies from the committee. He started, as is the normal course, on a cash basis for all transactions. After 12 months of successful cash trading, the committee extended to him an order for credit facilities, that he could pay for his supplies within seven days of the order. This continued up to the 22nd October of this year. On that date, the secretary to the Butter Marketing Committee sent for him and informed him that if he wished to buy in excess of £4,000 worth on the seven day credit system, such as was given to all traders, he would have to pay in cash or by guaranteed cheque. Mr. Gallagher demurred at this suggestion that he should be made an exception of, notwithstanding that he was prepared to carry on and pay cash orby guaranteed cheque for all his supplies. Through his solicitors he queried that restriction on his credit. I have here a letter dated 23rd October, from the firm of Colley and Moylan, solicitors, addressed to the secretary of the Butter Marketing Committee querying as I have stated, why Mr. Gallagher's credit was restricted and protesting against it. An acknowledgement was given to the solicitors stating that the matter would be placed before the committee at their next meeting.
The only information that is available to Mr. Gallagher as to why his credit was restricted is that the firm of Gallagher, Sharkey and Company, Limited, carrying on business at 29 Wellington Quay had gone into voluntary liquidation and that all wholesalers in the area were being put on restricted credit because of this fact. Mr. Gallagher, because of the similarity in names, immediately pointed out that he had no connection with that firm, that, in fact not only had he no connection with it but that he was a creditor of it and that it owed him over £200 and he stood to lose, as well as other people, to whom the firm owed money.
On investigation he learned that he was the only one of 20 wholesalers in the Dublin district to whom this restricted credit was made applicable. That was admitted to him at the Butter Marketing Committee. His solicitors, as I have said, wrote on the 23rd October and received an acknowledgement on the 24th October that the matter would go before the committee at its next meeting. Notwithstanding the fact that on the 12th November a meeting of that committee was held, Mr. Gallagher still received no reply. During a call in the normal course of business to the committee on the 14th November, he was told that, instead of getting any redress in connection with his complaint, a further restriction, not only of credit but of supplies, was going to be made applicable to him. He was restricted, he was informed, to 400 boxes of butter per week with cash on order, or cash handed in with order. I will deal with the value of the boxes later. A guaranteedcheque sent on the 25th November, 1953, for 200 boxes of butter was refused and returned to him. The cost of 400 boxes of butter is £4,375. Any order in excess of that under the first restriction meant that he would have to produce money in excess of that. He was satisfied to do that. He was solvent and was prepared to pay cash on delivery or on application. Notwithstanding that, his money for 200 boxes was returned. Mark you, the previous week the purchase of this firm from the Butter Marketing Committee was £7,500 worth, or 700 boxes. That indicates the extensive business that this reputable merchant was carrying on. With his butter supply stopped, he found that on 16th November, 1953, he had to let a van driver go and put him on the unemployment exchange.
He saw the present Minister for Agriculture on 17th November. He told him the facts as I have related them so far. The Minister expressed the view that he saw no reason why Mr. Gallagher should not obtain supplies that he needed. He undertook to examine the matter and after a short space of time the Minister indicated to Mr. Gallagher that he was not prepared to take any action in the matter.
The Gallagher and Sharkey case is a matter separate and distinct from this. It has no bearing on Mr. Joseph Gallagher of United Packers and his dealings with the Butter Marketing Committee. And there was no reason why, even if all the other people were restricted in credit, that Mr. Gallagher should be restricted in credit. But there is every reason to say there was something wrong when his butter supplies were cut off. He has a staff of ten employed and he authorises me to say that he is paying the maximum rate prescribed by the Joint Labout Committee for that industry. He challenges anyone to deny that.
This gentleman found that because of his enterprise and intelligence he could, and did, have installed a machine that permitted him to cut butter and subdivide it into pounds and half-pounds and packet it untouched by hand at such a speed that it permitted him to sell the butter purchased at the normal price paid byall wholesalers to the Dublin Marketing Committee, at 8/- per cwt. less than was being charged by the other wholesalers. He asked that that benefit should be passed on through the retailers to the consuming public. I have a list of reputable retailers in Dublin with branches varying from nine to three throughout the city who took advantage of his offer to enter into business with them and who passed on that reduced price to the consumers.
On 9th December, Mr. Gallagher sent this letter to the secretary of the Butter Marketing Committee:—
"Further to our telephone conversation of to-day's date, I would ask you to place before your committee the facts as outlined at the earliest possible opportunity as this matter is of extreme urgency to me.
As stated, my present position is:
(a) I am not in a position to supply my customers with their current requirements of butter due to the restrictions imposed on my purchases by your committee.
(b) Should there be any question of my disposing of butter to any source other than the normal retail trade in Dublin—I am prepared to open my books for inspection by a responsible person from the Butter Marketing Committee to prove conclusively, that all butter purchased by me in any one week is sold by me in that week to legitimate retail traders in Dublin.
(c) As I have been compelled to refuse butter to many of my customers this present week—it is seriously damaging my business, and should these restrictions continue it will do my business irreparable damage as I am losing the confidence of the retail trade —therefore I appeal to you to consider my case urgently."
Mr. Gallagher has received no reply. It seems a strange position but the background to what happened is this: Mr. Gallagher is not a member of the Butter Wholesalers' Association of Dublin. He refused to become a member of it. He did make applicationfor membership but when the conditions and when the threats—as I would suggest they were—were held over him he said he would carry on as he was. Mr. Gallagher is prepared to state that he has been informed that the Wholesalers' Association resenting the fact that he sold butter or made it possible for butter to be sold at reduced prices by his efficient management, sent a protest to the Butter Marketing Committee. Whatever the effect, this it what happened. First, his credit was restricted. He overcame that because he was able to pay. Secondly, he was put on a restricted quantity, and thirdly, he was refused butter even with the money or the cash. I suggest that the Minister knows that. I suggest that the Minister in refusing to take action is encouraging the people who wish by means of restrictive trade practices to prevent ordinary working people of Dublin securing the advantages of butter at a reduced price.
It is desirable, I think, in the time I have available to substantiate my claims by giving this list of retailers in Dublin—legitimate retailers—who were customers of Mr. Gallagher and all were selling at 1d. below the maximum price of 4/2 per lb.; Payantake (9 branches); Donlon Brothers, Moore street and Killester; T. Maher, Thomas Street; E. Walsh, Stoneybatter; Leo's, 101 Malahide Road; Mead's The All Cash Stores, Ballybough, and 9 Old County Road, Crumlin; P. Nolan, West Stores, East Wall Road; P. Crean, Townsend Street; T. Walsh, Pearse Street and Crumlin Cross; Pidgeons Ltd. (6 branches), and Flynn's, Sundrive Road, and McQuaid's Ltd. (5 branches).
I suggest that these reputable and legitimate dealers were carrying on a perfectly legitimate trade and carrying out the request of the Minister for Industry and Commerce; that the Minister for Agriculture knew all this; that he attempted to postpone discussion on this by saying he was making inquiries; he had not sufficient knowledge and he could not do anything.
I now demand, in the name of the public of this city and the public of this country, that people who engagein legitimate business be entitled to carry out their business: that no ring be permitted to compel them to keep the cost of living high; that the ordinary people who get an opportunity of benefiting by efficient management will be protected, and that the people who give them that opportunity will be applauded. Finally, the people who attempt to prevent them will be dealt with by this Government as surely as they will be dealt with by the people when they have an opportunity of expressing their disapproval.
As I told the Deputy to-day when I was answering his question, I had heard of this matter. I stated that the Butter Marketing Committee were giving me a full report. Subsequent to the Deputy's intimating that he would raise this matter on the Adjournment, I sent for the members of the Butter Marketing Committee. I have been informed by that committee that the reason why they refused to give this wholesaler extra butter was because, as is generally known in Dublin and elsewhere, we have a certain quantity of imported butter on hands and that butter will be coming on the market within the next two months.
Now, in order to ensure that there will not be any confusion when that butter comes on the market and that there will not be Irish butter on the market at the same time, certain steps must be taken because we all know the difficulties that would arise if Irish butter and imported butter were simultaneously on sale. The people would insist on Irish butter and leave the imported butter on the hands of the retailers. In order to avoid that certain steps must be taken and the Butter Marketing Committee are always suspicious of retailers and wholesalers looking for increased quantities of butter shortly before imported butter comes on the market.
The Deputy has given us the figures to-night and, according to those figures, this wholesaler got £4,000 worth of butter weekly; in one week that figure was increased, or sought to be increased, from £4,000 to £7,000.
He received that.
Mr. Walsh
That was an abnormal increase. In ordinary circumstances would not anyone be suspicious if an order expanded to such an extent in one week? And the Butter Marketing Committee was suspicious as to what would happen to this additional butter if they issued it to this wholesaler. Consequently they proceeded to investigate the reason for the sudden expansion. I stated to-day that I was to receive a full report of that investigation. The investigation has not been completed but when this wholesaler made representations and stated that his business had so expanded that he required more butter to supply his legitimate customers he was given an extra 100 boxes as recently as yesterday. Until such time as a full investigation of all these abnormal demands on the Butter Marketing Committee has taken place they will be very careful as to whom they will issue additional supplies of butter since the imported butter will possibly be on the market inside the next two months. We do not know exactly when it will come on the market; it depends to a large extent on when our own butter supplies become exhausted, but everyone will understand the difficulty there would be if simultaneously one merchant was selling New Zealand butter and another merchant Irish butter. The possibility is that the grocer selling New Zealand butter would not sell as much as one lb. of it and the other man would get all his trade. It is in order to avoid that situation that the Butter Marketing Committee has of necessity to take certain precautions and investigate every case.
In relation to the selling of the butter at 4/1 per lb. instead of 4/2, there is nothing to prevent anyone selling at 4/1 if he wishes to do so. He can sell at 4/- if he likes. The 4/2 is the maximum price fixed. If any retailer or wholesaler wishes to sell at a lower price than that there is nothing to prevent him doing so. If merchants think their margins are too high there is nothing to prevent them cutting the price.
But they will not get the butter. That is the point at issue.
Mr. Walsh
On the Deputy's own admission to-night this gentleman in whom he is interested has received 400 boxes of butter per week. That is ten tons of butter, and apparently there is no restriction.
Perhaps I did not make myself clear. My case is that not only is he restricted but he is not getting the butter. That has been stated to the marketing committee, acknowledged by them and not denied.
Mr. Walsh
He is getting ten tons per week.
He is not.
Mr. Walsh
As late as yesterday he got an additional 100 boxes so the Deputy's information must be out-of-date. That is the information I received from the members of the Butter Marketing Committee this evening.
Will the Minister meet me?
Mr. Walsh
I will not meet the Deputy any place. I am giving the Deputy his answer now and I place as much reliance on the Butter Marketing Committee as the Deputy places in Mr. Gallagher. I am quite prepared to accept the committee's information. I have as good a right to accept that as the Deputy has to accept Mr. Gallagher's. As I was saying, there is nothing to prevent people selling butter at 1d. per lb. less than the maximum price if they wish to do so. Are these people who are selling butter at less than the maximum price paying trade union wages? Are they meeting all their commitments because the margins fixed for the wholesalers and retailers have been fixed as a result of their representations to the Prices Advisory Body and it was on the recommendation of that body, after examining all the figures placed before them, that the margins were arrived at.
If these people had not had a good case for these margins I am sure the Prices Advisory Body would not have given them an increased price. All these things were taken into considerationwhen the margin was fixed. If wholesalers or retailers wish to associate, the price can be reduced. The margins on butter are such that they enable apparently the individual whom the Deputy has mentioned to reduce his price by 1d. per lb. His margin is such that if he buys from the Butter Marketing Committee he gets a margin of 18/-. That margin has been fixed as a result of representations made to the Prices Advisory Body. It was not arbitrarily fixed by the Government or anyone else. Apparently the case made was a justifiable case for the margin arrived at.
Then butter could be reduced in price.
Mr. Walsh
I say that if these people associate they can reduce the price. There is nothing to prevent all the wholesalers and retailers cutting the price to-morrow.
If the ring is broken it can be done.
Mr. Walsh
There is no such thing as a ring. The margin is there if they wish to work it. It is quite possible that they could reduce the price. Very often firms are prepared to sell an article at a low price in order to sell other commodities. It is good business at times to do that because more custom will be attracted and the reduced price for one commodity will help to sell tea, sugar and so forth. All the factors must be taken into consideration. We do not know what the factors are in the present case but we do know that the margins fixed were those recommended by the Prices Advisory Body after due deliberation and after careful investigation of all the facts and figures placed before them. There is nothing to prevent any retailer or wholesaler selling butter at less than 4/2 because there is no minimum price fixed. What is fixed is the maximum price.
Will this man get his butter to-morrow? That is the point.
The Dáil adjourned at 11.30 p.m., until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 11th December, 1953.