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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 16 Feb 1954

Vol. 144 No. 4

Local Government (Temporary Reduction of Valuation) Bill, 1953— Committee.

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3.

On behalf of Deputy O'Higgins I move amendment No. 1:—

In sub-section (1), page 2, to delete lines 26 and 27 and substitute "‘the prescribed period' means the period beginning on 1st January, 1951, and ending on 31st December, 1958".

The object of the amendment is to extend the period in respect of people who have spent considerable sums of money on building since materials became plentiful, that is, since 1950, so that they may be put in a position to reap some benefit from this Bill when it becomes an Act. I think that is something which the Minister should take into consideration. It may be said that it is hard to defend retrospective action, but, seeing that the principal part of all reconstruction and rebuilding work has taken place within the last four or five years, it surely would be harsh treatment for people who had spent considerable sums of money on such work if they were to be deprived of all benefit under this measure.

Mr. O'Higgins

The purpose of the amendment is to extend the period in respect of which this Bill will operate. I have no doubt that the Deputies who urged on Second Reading that the Minister should not confine the period to three years, as proposed in the Bill, will find it very easy to support this amendment.

On a suggestion which the Deputy himself did not make on the Second Reading?

Mr. O'Higgins

It was not made by me, but it was made by Deputy Briscoe and by Deputy MacCarthy.

The Deputy now thinks that he can cash-in politically on it.

Mr. O'Higgins

It would be hard to interpret the Deputy's views in the form of an amendment.

The Minister's promise satisfied me.

Mr. O'Higgins

I am sure Deputy Briscoe will honour the words that he spoke here on the Second Reading. Deputy MacCarthy is not here at the moment. I imagine that he is engaged preparing a speech in favour of the amendment. The purpose of the amendment—it goes slightly further though not very much further, than Deputy Briscoe urged on Second Reading—is to provide, in effect, that roughly for a period of seven years from the time at which the food hygiene regulations came into operation in 1951 business people and others owning buildings who improved their buildings should be entitled to the benefits of the Bill. I cannot see much objection to it.

The Minister, I think, agreed in principle with, or felt there was something in what Deputy Briscoe said on the Second Reading, and I am certain that, merely because the amendment is put down by me, the Minister will not find himself in violent opposition to it. It does not cost the State anything and does not cost the Department of Finance very much. It merely provides that those who have already improved their premises will be entitled to the benefit of this legislation. Now, when we are providing some measure of relief for business people improving their premises, I feel that we should extend it to the owners of small shops who spent money on improving their premises, although faced with an increase in valuation, an increase in income-tax and in the outgoings of their business, by reason of having been compelled to spend that money in the past two or three years. I suggest also that we should not in the future confine it merely to the period ending in 1956, but should extend it to a full period of seven years. I have no doubt that the good sense of the amendment will appeal to the good sense of Deputy Briscoe who is the foster-father of this amendment and who, I am sure, will not disown his own foster-child.

I am really amused by the manner in which Deputy O'Higgins attempts to become the custodian of the foundling of which I am now the foster-father. The Deputy attempts by his amendment to get something by trying, as he says himself, to commit me to a part of his amendment. The Deputy does not know what he is talking about in this matter, so far as local authority funds are concerned. It is true that, on Second Reading, I petitioned the Minister to extend the period for qualifying to 1958 and I gave my reasons, the main reason being that because some people might be induced to commence now on rather largescale building schemes which could not be completed by 1956, they should be encouraged to go ahead and get the benefit. That is as far as I went. That is a minor part of the amendment, and I am satisfied to accept the Minister's promise, if he will give it, that he will be prepared to consider an extension of the period at a later stage if it is found necessary.

The sole purpose of the Bill is to induce people at this moment to get on with the doing of work which will give employment, and, if the period is extended too far, there will be a postponement of activity by these people. We do not know how many will take advantage of this when it is passed, but the Minister, I understand, holds the view that the sooner we get private people to engage in these operations, and to take in quickly as many of the unemployed as possible, the better. If we find that certain difficulties have arisen in respect of particular schemes when the Bill has become an Act, we can bring in amending legislation to extend it, and I propose to ask the Minister if he will give a promise in that form. I am not going to be walked by a trick into something which I did not advocate at all. I did not advocate going back to 1951. I did suggest that there might be some reason to go back to the beginning of the corporation financial year which is April 1st.

Mr. O'Higgins

All Fools' Day.

The Deputy apparently side-stepped that because he felt it might be a reflection on himself.

Mr. A. Byrne

Will the Minister accept that—April 1st?

I am not going to press it because I have discussed it with a certain official and I find that it is not going to affect this matter very seriously.

Mr. O'Higgins

Because you got into trouble with the Minister.

I did not discuss it with the Minister since the last occasion we sat here, except for an aside a few minutes ago.

Mr. O'Higgins

What was the aside?

I do not know whether the Fine Gael Party operate in that way—that there is so little freedom that they get the works if they open their mouths too wide. I want to make it clear that I am not going to support the amendment as framed. I am not running away from what I have asked and I want to know if the Minister will give the undertaking in the form I have suggested—that if, at a later date, it is found that additional work can be gone on with and if the unemployment situation demands further encouragement, he will extend it. I am not, however, going to endanger— as I am sure Deputy Byrne is not— what is behind the Bill—the purpose of getting work started immediately or as soon as possible and not give people an opportunity of putting it on the long finger.

So far as going back to 1951 is concerned, possibly some of these people have already paid their rates on the new valuation.

Mr. O'Higgins

They will be very glad to get them back.

Is Deputy O'Higgins a member of the Dublin Corporation or of any local authority? Will he stand over an increase in rates on what he calls the already overladen ratepaying population in the form of an additional impost to secure from them a repayment for others who have paid? The innocence of Deputy O'Higgins is amusing. He has not got to face the criticism for every penny that goes on the rates and to justify it, but that is what we members of local authorities have to do. We come here with a full sense of responsibility and at the moment we are quite prepared to praise the Minister and the Government for what they are doing to help local authorities to do their share in bringing relief to unemployed people and removing from the backs of the ratepayers a great deal of the burden which would fall on them as a result of this. I want Deputy O'Higgins to know that I have answered him clearly, emphatically and without any evasion whatever and that I was not born yesterday. I am not going to be brought into the Lobby by him to support an amendment which contains part of a suggestion of mine in order that I should unwittingly support something to which I am opposed.

Mr. O'Higgins

It is rather interesting to hear Deputy Briscoe of a Tuesday answering Deputy Briscoe of a Thursday, because I was impressed last Wednesday or Thursday evening by the case made by Deputy Briscoe that the Minister's approach to the period set out in this Bill was too tightfisted. Deputy Briscoe said that the Minister is not being fair to business people unless he provides for the next five years, until December, 1958, that this remission should be in force. I knew, of course, that Deputy Briscoe, with his corporation and public activities, would perhaps be too busy to find time to put down this amendment, and for that reason, in order to assist the Deputy, yesterday morning I tabled this amendment; and I come in here now, having proposed an amendment in the same spirit in which Deputy Briscoe advocated this on the Second Reading, to find the Deputy incensed, indignant, fearfully anxious to answer whom but Deputy Briscoe. Deputy Briscoe can fight Deputy Briscoe. I do not know which will win. I am sure that if Deputy Briscoe could speak with the two tongues, or walk in the same way as he speaks——

Does that question have anything to do with the amendment?

Mr. O'Higgins

I think this is sensible. I think it is fair, because the Deputy, who is an old campaigner——

The incidental part of it.

Mr. O'Higgins

——who was not born yesterday nor the week before——

Nor the month before.

Mr. O'Higgins

——nor last year.

That is right.

Mr. O'Higgins

Quite a long while ago. The Deputy is an old campaigner, and I am sure he will recollect in the latter part of 1950 from this side of the House attacking Deputy Dr. Browne, who is now on that side of the House —a remarkable accomplishment for Deputy Dr. Browne; we always see him on the left-hand side of the Chair of this House, no matter what Government is in power.

What did I attack him on? Will you relate it to the amendment?

Mr. O'Higgins

The Deputy attacked him because the effect of his food hygiene regulations was to compel traders to expend money on improving their shops and having the valuation of their premises increased.

You are an awful chancer. I am going to challenge the Deputy to prove that. It is like the approach he made the other day. It never happened.

The expression "chancer" should not be used in this House.

I withdraw that. I meant it was an awful chance to take.

Mr. O'Higgins

I know that on one famous occasion the word "chancer" was defined as a person who took chances. I think the reference was to one of the Deputy's leaders. However, be that as it may, there is no doubt that ever since those regulations of 1950 came into operation, January, 1951, the demand was made consistently by the Opposition—and when I say by the Opposition, I mean the Fianna Fáil Party for the first six months of 1951 and this side of the House since—that some relief in the way of valuation and rates remission should be given to traders who expended money to accord with the law of the land, no one disputing that the law should be such, merely dealing with the situation which obtained.

This amendment does provide that those people would get even at this late hour the remission which those who did not do a thing for the last two and a half years but held their money without spending it, those who were not good citizens, if you like, are to get. It is reasonable to provide that the people who went through the vicissitudes of having their rates increased and all the rest of it should now get the same measure of relief as those who did nothing. I cannot understand why Deputy Briscoe is against it. I know that were Deputy Briscoe on this side of the House he would be the first to advocate this minimum bit of justice. Frankly, I think the Deputy is against it merely because a Deputy on this side of the House proposes it.

The purpose of this Bill is to give work in the building trade, and I do not think that Deputy O'Higgins is fair to Deputy Briscoe. Last week Deputy Briscoe, myself and others did advocate an extension, but the extension we did advocate was this, that in the case of major construction jobs there might be the possibility that those works would not be completed before the date laid down in the Bill and we did suggest that some way out might be found to cover such major works. Deputy Briscoe advocated that, but he did not advocate in a general way that an extended period should apply to all works. He advocated that it should apply to major works where the time given in this Bill might not be long enough; and personally, if the Minister undertakes to see that works of such a nature at the end of this period will be considered favourably I am prepared to take that.

I want just to say this: I must protest at the insult to my intelligence by Deputy O'Higgins, who said that he put this amendment down in order to help a colleague who was so busy on other matters that he might not have time to put it down. What I do object to is that in putting it down, apart from the fact that I was so busy on all those public duties, I should be so unintelligent as not to realise that the sting was not in what I suggested and it was nothing more than an attempt to get it in this way. Would the Deputy not have been better advised, if he really believed in my advocacy, to have put down an amendment for the extended period by itself and left it at that? He could then have challenged me to support it and add a separate amendment for what he really wants. I say to Deputy O'Higgins that I would like him to produce in this House any quotation of mine which would bear out the story he told of my attitude.

Mr. O'Higgins

Is the Deputy bound by what was said by his Party?

The Deputy said Deputy Briscoe.

Mr. O'Higgins

Is the Deputy bound by what was said——

This is like Deputy O'Higgins on the eve of the last session when he made a challenge here——

We are not going back on that. We are discussing this amendment.

I am not going to relate the details of it. I say that he issued a challenge——

That is all right. Let us proceed with this amendment.

I do not want Deputy O'Higgins to go around the country in the next few weeks and suggest what he has attempted to suggest here. I want him to realise, and it is on record here, that what I did suggest last week was entirely different from what his amendment suggests; and what my colleague, Deputy Cunningham, has just stated is correct. It was in connection with major operations, major schemes, where the persons contemplating them might feel that they would not be finished in time to qualify and I am quite satisfied, as I have said before, to oppose this amendment and accept the Minister's word if he would give it in the form I have asked, that he would be prepared to reconsider this if we feel that a certain large amount of work might be going on at the expiry of 1956 and might not be completed in the period in which it is asked to be completed by this Bill.

I am asked in this amendment to go back in relation to work which is already done and to go forward in regard to work that may be undertaken. I think that Deputies no matter what side of the House they belong to, are entitled here during the course of the Second Reading debate to make suggestions as they think fit. It is true that a suggestion was made here from this side of the House that perhaps 1956 was on the short side, and a number of very effective arguments were advanced in support of that contention.

Whatever words Deputy O'Higgins may wish to put into my mouth—I have not the words I spoke on that occasion before me—but I distinctly recollect that I said——

Mr. O'Higgins

You would accept it.

——that the purpose of the Bill was to encourage employment as quickly as possible and I did not so much object to an extension of the period as the fact that by extending the period one would extend the time in which an employer who might wish to take advantage of this provision in order to give employment would take advantage of it and in that way one would string out the time too far. I have not changed my mind on that. Three years may not cover every kind of case, but it is a reasonable period. If, as a result of experience gained over the three years, any Deputy can bring forward a case, or a number of cases, to show that for one reason or another work could not be completed inside the time laid down, then I am sure the House and whoever is responsible will listen to him.

I tried to think of some way in which I could meet this suggestion without going the whole way. Some Deputies asked why not retain the 1956 for the smaller type of job and decide on 1958 for the larger project. A line must be drawn somewhere. One may say everything over £2,000, £3,000 or £4,000 and one job may be either over or under and cause a good deal of irritation because it is either a little more or a little less and is thereby ruled out. I do not think that is a good solution.

Having examined the matter and discussed it with others, I have no hesitation in saying that having regard to the primary purpose of the measure three years is a reasonable period. I am sure this House will always be willing at the end of that three years to listen to a case, if a case can be made, for an extension. Deputy O'Higgins has cited the food regulations as one reason why we should go back and cover work done since 1950-1951. I see no reason why those who have been obliged to improve their premises as a result of the food regulations should be specially singled out for special treatment. I am not conversant with all the reasons why these food regulations were made, but I am sure they were good reasons. I have some experience of the sort of problem with which they were designed to deal. Surely if an individual had premises in which food was being handled for public consumption and those premises were in good condition while the premises of others in competition were not up to the required standard, and if the responsible Minister or Department saw fit to make regulations to induce by one form or another such people to bring their premises up to the required standard, then I do not see why those people should be singled out for special treatment even if that were a practicable proposition.

I see no case for going back, because that would be entirely in conflict with the purpose for which this Bill was introduced and it would be impossible to know when repairs were, in fact, carried out. Who could tell whether these improvements were effected in 1950-51, in 1949 or 1946? It is the practice in relation to measures such as this to make the date the date on which the proposals are published and circulated. There is an excellent reason for adopting that procedure, and that reason in relation to other measures was no stronger than it is in relation to the measure we are discussing now.

A suggestion was made that we should extend it to 1958. I think I have dealt effectively with that point. If I can more successfully reason with my colleagues and convince them, if they have a greater degree of confidence in any assurance that I give them, it is, I suppose, to be expected that they would take my assurance on these matters with much greater ease than will Deputy O'Higgins or any other member of the Opposition.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Minister means that the Second Reading suggestions are all right provided they are not taken seriously.

I do not know what the Deputy means by taking them seriously. I am trying to convey to the House that I took them quite seriously. They would cost me nothing. They would cost the Exchequer nothing. This measure was designed for a specific purpose, and I believe, as do others, that it would be weakened if we were to accede to the request to extend it in the manner suggested in this amendment. I am sorry I cannot meet either of the major points raised.

Mr. A. Byrne

Would the Minister be prepared to consider the suggestion made by Deputy Briscoe to go back to April in order to give some concession to those who have carried out repairs and alterations?

Once one starts to go back, even to April, one will have to go further. As a result of experience, it is safer to do what I have suggested and proposed here, namely, to rigidly fix the date. If we say 1st April, someone is bound to be left out, and we would be asked to go a little further back.

Mr. A. Byrne

It is the beginning of the financial year.

I understand the Deputy's point, but I think it is better to leave it as it is.

Question—"That the lines proposed to be deleted stand"—put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 56; Níl, 32.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Fanning, John.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Carew, John.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Davin, William.
  • Deering, Mark.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lynch, John (North Kerry).
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mannion, John.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies O'Higgins and McMenamin.
Question declared carried.

I take it that amendments Nos. 2 and 3 can be discussed together?

Mr. O'Higgins

Yes. I move amendment No. 2:—

In sub-section (3), page 2, to delete paragraph (a) lines 38 to 41.

The purpose of these amendments, Nos. 2 and 3, is to provide, in effect, that this Bill should apply to labourers' cottages. As the Bill stands at the moment there is an express exclusion of labourers' cottages from the benefits of the Bill, in so far as remission of rates is concerned. I direct the attention of the House to the fact that if, at the moment, a labourer's cottage tenanted from the local authority is enlarged or improved, the valuation thereof can and will be increased, and there is an express exclusion under this Bill of all such cottages. In paragraph (d) there is a provision that if a cottage is bought out by a tenant under a cottage purchase scheme and is then enlarged the benefits of the Bill would apply, but my objection is that unless there is such a cottage purchase scheme actually carried out, any tenant of a labourer's cottage who enlarges or improves his cottage will have the valuation increased.

In addition under the Labourers Act at the moment no cottage purchase scheme can be approved of by the Minister until the cottage is put into a certain condition of repair and good order, in accordance with the provisions of one of the sections of the 1936 Labourers Act. That may in certain circumstances mean that if an improvement is carried out, there is nothing to prevent the rateable valuation of that cottage being increased because the improvement has to be carried out before it is owned by the tenant and it is only when the improvement is carried out that the ownership changes from the local authority to the former tenant. So that the Bill as it stands excludes, very largely speaking, those who occupy labourers' cottages from the benefit of this legislation. For that reason these amendments have been put down to ensure that any remission we are doling out now at a late hour and with a niggardly hand to certain parties, should also extend to those occupying labourers' cottages in the country. I have no doubt that this again will be an amendment that will appeal to the good sense of the majority of Deputies, if not, in fact, appeal in such a way as to command their votes. I should certainly be surprised if the Minister would grudge to the cottage tenants of this country this slight bit of material relief in relation to rates.

I just want to ask the Minister if the benefit of this Bill applies to the owners of vested cottages. I think that repairs carried out to cottages in the case Deputy O'Higgins has instanced, prior to sale or prior to the beginning of a purchase scheme, do not affect the rent in any way, but I am interested in ascertaining if the benefit of this Bill applies to cottages where the tenants have negotiated the purchase scheme and where the cottages are vested.

Mr. O'Higgins

It does apply there.

I do not think Deputy O'Higgins knows his subject as well as he would, in my view, want to, in order to make his case properly on this amendment from his point of view. There never was, in any of the Housing Acts, provision for relieving houses erected by local authorities of rates. The very excellent reason why no such provision was contained in any of the Housing Acts was of course that the local authority is already contributing very substantially from the rates to the erection and subsidisation of these houses. The State is also contributing substantially to the subsidisation of these houses. It was because of that, of course, that in the Housing Acts of the past these local authority buildings were exempted from the operation of any rate relief provision that these measures contain. Take the ordinary unserviced cottage in rural parts. The position is that the average loan charges on such cottage would be about £63 per annum. Of that charge the State pays £31, the local authority pays £19 and the tenant pays £13. It is in that form that Parliament gave relief to the people for whom the cottages were erected by local bodies rather than in the form in which it gave it to private persons who erected houses.

Mr. O'Higgins

You mean the rent is subsidised?

Yes, it is a form of relief entirely different from any form given to other types and sections of the community providing houses themselves.

Mr. O'Higgins

Take a cottage built in the last century?

The rents in these cases were terribly low.

Mr. O'Higgins

Very low, and that cottage was going to be the subject of a purchase scheme——

Let me deal with the point I am at. You can question me until the cows come home when I have dealt with that. The Deputy has asked what is the position if a tenant of an unpurchased cottage were to carry out enlargements or improvements. Of course, the Deputy should know that the tenant of an unpurchased cottage could not carry out enlargements or improvements——

Mr. O'Higgins

Of course he could.

He could not. He is not entitled to carry out enlargements or improvements in a cottage without the permission of the local body.

Mr. O'Higgins

And do you think the local body would refuse? Have sense!

Not only that but the local authority will refuse a tenant permission to erect even an out-office. It is not a question of sense; it is a question of experience and I know I am right in what I am saying. The tenant of an unpurchased cottage has no right to alter or change in any respect the house of which he is a tenant. That being so, there is no use in making a suggestion that such a tenant is subject to any particular grievance or hardship. In the case of a tenant who takes advantage of the law as it is and purchases his cottage from the local body—he is covered and he will get relief of rates in respect of any improvements he effects in the building once he becomes the tenant-purchaser. There is, therefore, no case at all to be made. As I indicated first of all, the method by which the labourer's cottage and housing operations of local bodies are financed by the State and the ratepayers rules out any justification for bringing these into a measure such as this or into any other measure dealing with housing problems. In the case of a purchased cottage, I say provision is made so that where tenants carry out improvements or extensions they can get rate relief. In the case of a tenant who is still living in a labourer's cottage, it is the local body's responsibility.

Would the Minister make one point clear? If, as I believe it is quite correct to anticipate, the large number of 2,400 cottage-tenants will become legally owners of their cottages in a few months' time, what will be the position in the case of that section of tenants who are going to build extensions or additional rooms? Is their position clear?

Before they purchase these cottages there is an obligation on the local body to leave the cottage in a proper condition of repair.

I am not talking of repair, I am talking about extension.

Once they become owners of the cottages, if they provide extensions or enlargements then they will be entitled to the reliefs provided in this Bill.

In the same way as every other citizen?

Yes, that is clear.

Mr. O'Higgins

Three things appear to me to arise on this section. There may be repair of the old building, reconstruction work or improvement work carried out while a labourer is the tenant to the local authority. The Minister says the tenant has no right to do so. Of course he has not. But if by some chance—and there have been cases of this—a windfall comes to the family and while they are still tenants of the local authority they ask the local rent collector to get in touch with the secretary of the county council to know whether he would object to them putting in a new kitchen. There is no doubt they would be given permission to do it. The security for the rent is thereby increased. The Minister must be living up in the clouds if he thinks that does not take place every other day in this country.

I have never seen it and I have been on local bodies for years. Of course, Deputy O'Higgins has more experience.

Mr. O'Higgins

Apparently so. Most of these cottages, particularly the older cottages, are family dwellings that have been tenanted for well nigh 100 years by successive tenants in the same family. Time and time again improvements are carried out to what was originally a small two- or three-roomed cottage long before the Labourers Act of 1946. There is no doubt about that. If the Minister disputes that he may do so, but it is my experience and I suggest it to the House as one of the first classes of cases that may be affected by the section as it stands.

A tenant would break his tenancy if it was known that he meddled with the house at all.

Mr. O'Higgins

Does the Minister understand? I am going to say this in simple words. I did not suggest that any tenant has the right to reconstruct or improve his cottage. What I did suggest is this: that local authorities time and time again have given permission to tenants to expend money on the improvement of their cottages.

They acquire no further right by doing that.

Mr. O'Higgins

They acquire nothing for it but the local authority is glad to see it done. They get something more and their security for the rent is substantially improved. That is one set of cases. The second set is in relation to cottage purchase schemes and mind you this is something that will arise more and more frequently nowadays. Cottage purchase schemes in a lot of midland counties and in my own constituency in Laois, at the moment have been applied to cottages built roughly prior to 1930. They extend back to cottages built in or around the time when the parent Act was passed and from that up to 1930 over a period of 60 or 70 years. There is an obligation on the local authority, before a cottage purchase scheme can go into operation, to put its cottages into a reasonable state of repair in accordance with the Labourers Act, 1936. That much is clear. As the valuation laws stand at the moment and will stand no matter whether this Bill becomes law or not, there is nothing to stop the Valuation Office revaluing any building. There is a statutory obligation on them to do so if required by any ratepayer or any rate collector.

There are 3,000 cottages in Laois the subject of a tenant purchase scheme that has been approved by the Minister and which may go into operation. All those cottages had to have repairs carried out on them. When the scheme is accepted by the tenants, the tenants will become the freehold owners of those cottages. Very well, the Minister thinks that is grand. Any one of those tenants may have a row with his next door neighbour and his particular cottage may be reported for inclusion in the annual valuation revision list. If it is once reported there is a statutory obligation, under penalty of imprisonment, in the Valuation Act of 1852 to have that cottage revalued.

If the valuation of a cottage built in 1890 was something round £3 and in the year 1953 or 1954 the local authority spends £100 in doing it up as they frequently have to do to accord with the Act of 1936, you may take it as certain that the valuation officer, enforcing the valuation law of 1852, will decide 100 years later that the annual rent of that cottage is more than £3 per year. That is a very serious omission in this section and that is what we are endeavouring to deal with.

There are hundreds and thousands of cottages in the country at the moment that will become the subject of cottage purchase schemes that are going to be made a fair mark for the Valuation Office. The Minister thinks everything is going to be hunkey-dorey because he is ensuring that, once the freehold owner passes, the new owner, the tenant, then carries out improvements he is going to get protection. That is not good enough. It is too late because each one of these cottages at the moment can be revalued and will be revalued because repairs have been carried out and money expended on them.

I earnestly suggest to the Minister that this is a matter which should command more attention than it has obviously got. I suggest to the Minister he should ensure that in relation to labourers' cottages passing now from local authorities to the tenants themselves they will not become the subject of a revaluation. He has done it, of course, when the purchase scheme is completed.

Paragraph (e) of Section 3 provides that the Bill will apply to the enlargement or improvement of what is, in effect, a labourer's cottage except where it is owned by the occupier. That is sound enough, but that only applies to improvements or enlargements carried out after the operation of a cottage purchase scheme. It does not safeguard the tenant in relation to work done, not by him, but by the county council to accord with the Labourers Act, 1936, to put the cottage into a fit state to sell it to the tenant. That must be done as a preliminary step to the execution of any cottage purchase scheme. Once it is done the Valuation Office machinery can be called into force to increase the valuation of any such cottage. If it is called into force as it can be, either by the rate collector or by any ratepayer, there is a statutory obligation then on the Commissioner of Valuation to include that house for the revision of its valuation. It is then no good for the Minister or for any member of the Government to say: "Well, we intended to give that benefit under the section," when, in fact, they have not done it. There is no safeguard in the section at the moment and that is why the amendment is put forward.

I do not want to see any confusion created concerning this very important matter so far as the tenants of cottages are concerned in the case of the coming into operation of a cottage purchase scheme. Deputy O'Higgins correctly stated—the Minister knows it as well—that a cottage purchase scheme covering about 2,400 cottage tenants has been secured and is likely to come into operation at a very early date. I want to see that the cottage purchase tenants who will take advantage of that cottage purchase scheme which I strongly favour will not suffer in any way as a result of the coming into operation of the measure now before the House.

I want to see these cottage tenants, when the cottage purchase scheme comes into operation, where improvements are carried out, get the same benefit as every other section will get under the terms of this measure when it becomes law. I am personally aware over a long period of years that decent and industrious cottage tenants in Laois and Offaly have in many cases, and in some cases repeatedly, made application for permission to the local authority to build additional rooms. I could never understand the attitude of the county manager on this matter. In some cases, the county manager demanded the payment of a lump sum of £200 or £250, a ridiculous figure, for the purpose of covering the cost of an additional room to a cottage built 40 or 50 years ago.

In other cases the county manager was prepared to give permission to carry out the necessary extensions on payment of an additional fixed figure of 1/- or 2/- per week. I requested on many occasions that there should be some common sense applied in these particular cases when decent industrious cottage tenants with large families wanted to carry out these extensions. Surely to God there is a sound case for saying that there should be either a fixed sum put down by the applicant concerned or that there should be a standardised increased rent per week in these cases.

A large number of these tenants declined to comply with the conditions laid down by the county manager and, therefore, the necessary extensions were not carried out. I have grave reason to suspect that, when the cottage purchase scheme comes into operation in Laois, many of these industrious cottage tenants will proceed to carry out the extensions. They will be quite entitled to do so when they become owners of the cottages but I want an assurance from the Minister that if and when the scheme comes into operation and if, as a result of its coming into operation, these tenants proceed to carry out certain extensions, build additional rooms or carry out other improvements—I am not talking about repairs as a preliminary because that is already covered—the tenants in these circumstances will be covered by the benefit of this Bill in the same manner as every other section.

They will.

Is that quite definite?

Yes, I cannot make it more definite than that.

Mr. O'Higgins

Yes, I agree they will.

Question: "That the words proposed to be deleted, stand," put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 55; Níl, 38.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Fanning, John.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Carew, John.
  • Cawley, Patrick.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Davin, William.
  • Deering, Mark.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lynch, John (North Kerry).
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mannion, John.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies O'Higgins and McMenamin.
Amendment No. 3 not moved.
Question declared carried; amendment negatived.
Section 3 put and agreed to.
SECTION 4

Mr. O'Higgins

I move amendment No. 4:—

In sub-section (1), page 3, to delete all words after "improvement" in line 43 down to the end of the sub-section and substitute "such increase shall not come into operation for a period of seven years from the date thereof".

The effect of this amendment is to provide that instead of doling out a two-thirds remission in rates for seven years we should give, for the period of seven years, a remission in full of the effect of the increase in valuation. I should like to make clear to Deputies who, perhaps, were not present at our previous discussions, the difference between the Minister's section and the proposal which we make. When an improvement is carried out to a building, or an enlargement is made, or some reconstruction work is done, or even when no work is done—but we are not considering the latter case now—and revaluation takes place, it is open to the Valuation Office, having got in by the front door, to revalue the entire building from beginning to end and to assess an entirely new valuation. A valuation may go up from £20 to £60 or £80. The Minister, in the section as it stands, provides that in the event of such a revaluation the Commissioner of Valuation will say that of the increase in valuation from £20 to £60, or whatever it may be, so much is attributable to enlargement or improvement and, in relation to the rates falling to be paid on the new valuation, the owner will pay only one-third instead of threethirds for the next six financial years. Therefore, in effect, the Minister's section gives two-thirds remission of rates.

In the amendment which I have tabled, I suggest it would be better— in the interests of securing immediate employment for people and bringing about immediate building activity— that there should be a complete remission for seven years in the rates attributable to the increase in valuation related to an enlargement or the improvement of a building. I suggest that we should not retain a tax of one-third of the rates on a person who complies with the intention behind this section by enlarging his building and giving employment but that we should give him, for the ensuing six financial years, remission of the full extra rate which is attributable to the improvement or enlargement work.

There is no question about it but that to give a man entire relief for seven years is more attractive than to give him two-thirds relief. However, after all, this matter concerns local bodies, too. A two-thirds relief on any new building or enlargement for a period of seven years—some of which may have taken place over the years—is a considerable relief.

I think I said on the Second Reading that this measure is designed to encourage people who may have carried out repairs and enlargements and extensions over a period of years and who—where such work was not measured—might not now feel inclined to undertake further work, fearing that, on its being measured for valuation purposes, the work done over the earlier period would also be included. If the commissioners are satisfied that a reasonable amount of work is done from, say, the 27th July last until 1956, a person gets the benefit of two-thirds remission in respect of a work that may have been done over a fairly extended period. To say that the remission should be not merely two-thirds but 100 per cent. for the period is undoubtedly proposing to confer upon the person concerned a great benefit. However, I think, and many people think, that the proposal in this measure is fairer, having regard to all the interests concerned, and it is as far as I am prepared to go.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Minister says that local bodies must be considered. Again, this is a confusion in thinking. We are dealing with a kind of taxation which only arises if the taxpayer does something: at least, that is the law. Local bodies can gain nothing—at least, they should not gain anything— unless owners of buildings enlarge or improve them. I understood the Minister's policy to be to encourage owners of buildings to enlarge or improve them, thereby giving employment and generally putting money in circulation and offsetting some of the worst effects of the present Government's policy. If that is the intention behind it, surely the carrot should be made as red and as large as we can make it. We are not costing a penny to any local authority——

Oh, yes, you are.

Mr. O'Higgins

We are not charging them. No one is going to be worse off if we say: "Look men, for the next seven years you are free to spend money on improving your business premises, employing more people and generally developing your business. You will not be charged a penny extra local tax because of that and that alone." What is unreasonable about that? It does not cost the local authority anything because the new tax could only come into operation if the work were carried out. It is certainly a more intelligent approach if the sole purpose of this Bill is, as the Minister said it was, to encourage the expenditure of money on rebuilding and reconstruction and thereby to give employment. It is sensible to do what we in the Fine Gael Party proposed to do in our Bill, to give full remission for the full period of seven years. The Minister, apparently, does not agree.

I wonder if Deputy O'Higgins has consulted with members of his Party who are members of local authorities in respect to this amendment. I am sure he has not.

Mr. O'Higgins

Deputy Briscoe has always something.

I have always something —something sensible. It is true that if this measure were not introduced certain development might not take place. It is quite correct to say that a local authority cannot lose what it has not got or what it will not get. It is hoped that this measure will induce people to improve premises, to make additions to premises and to erect new buildings. Normally, the local authority would get the full benefit of the rates applicable to new buildings or additions. What the Deputy does not see is that if there was not some charge, even to the extent of one-third, somebody else would have to pay for the services which the local authority must render in respect of new buildings or additions. Taking the long view and the broad view, it is a good thing that the services should be extended for the period of years during which they benefit by the remission. It is not fair to suggest that fellow-citizens should carry on their backs the full charge of the services to be extended to new buildings.

I do not think Deputy O'Higgins realises what is involved in local government, I do not think he understands a bit about it. Those of us who are on local councils and have discussed this in our council and committee meetings are quite satisfied and consider that this is as generous a measure, in all its terms, as we would want, for the purpose we have in mind, namely, to encourage additional employment through private enterprise.

I have yet to hear a single member of the Deputy's Party who is a member of a local authority advocating what the Deputy is advocating. I do not know whom the Deputy consulted. If he were to re-examine it and consider it from the point of view of the ratepayer who is affected he will realise that the Government does not give in this Bill any grant or does not suffer any loss on the rates if they are reduced to the extent of a two-thirds remission. I represent Dublin citizens on Dublin Corporation. There has been consultation with my colleagues of all Parties. We are satisfied that this is the best way to deal with it, not to have a full remission of rates for six or seven years because somebody would have to carry the baby. Who would it be? It would be the very people about whom the Deputy was complaining in his first amendment.

Is not Deputy Briscoe very innocent?

Mr. O'Higgins

No.

He is very anxious to find some member of the House who is a member of a local authority who will support this amendment. Deputy Briscoe represents the City of Dublin.

On the Dublin Corporation.

He knows that when the Health Act came into force premises had to be completely cleaned out, and money had to be expended on them, under the laws passed by this House, although there was no desire on the part of the owner of the premises to do it. The owner of the premises, prior to the compulsory order, had been selling goods and making as much money as he is making now. When is he to recover that expenditure? How is he to himself?

It is only justice, where this House has imposed an obligation on a man to spend money that he need not otherwise spend, that he should get some opportunity to recoup himself. Does Deputy Briscoe object to that? If he does, let him say so. It makes no difference to the local authority, because they have to raise a certain amount of money. They will get that no matter what the valuation is. This House imposes obligations on a man to expend very considerable sums of money and then will come down on top of him to penalise him further without giving any opportunity to him to recoup himself.

Is that what the amendment is about?

The amendment is reasonable in that respect. It gives him some opportunity to increase his turnover as a result of the amenities and the better accommodation he has provided in his premises.

Mr. O'Higgins

Deputy Briscoe seldom speaks on a matter of interest to this House without deep nodding of his head. He always has somebody tucked over his shoulder that he has consulted with regard to the matter. I do not know what caucus meeting of the Dublin Corporation Deputy Briscoe is talking about. I do not give a fiddlede-dee. I do not believe a matter of this kind was ever discussed in a formal manner at any meeting of the Dublin Corporation.

It was publicly discussed at the Dublin Corporation.

Mr. O'Higgins

I do not care where it was discussed.

You said it was not, that it was a caucus meeting.

Mr. O'Higgins

I was only giving a free translation to the sinister words the Deputy used here.

In other words, you do not know your business at all

Mr. O'Higgins

Let Deputy Carter go back to his notes, if he is able to write. The purpose of this amendment is very clear. As Deputy McMenamin has said, we are suggesting that, in order to induce people to carry out what is supposed to be the policy behind this Bill, we should tell them that they can spend money on improvements and enlargements and that we will give them a period of seven years during which they can recoup themselves for the expenditure involved. What is unreasonable about that?

Who will pay for the services in the meantime?

Mr. O'Higgins

That is the kind of nonsense that is paraded here as solemn thought. What added services could arise?

There is one the Deputy would understand—the clearing up of the ashpit.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is the sort of poppycock that passes for solemn wisdom from Deputy Briscoe. Every lock-up shop in the city, every small little antiquated shop that is improved because of the health regulations— what service will that require? There happens to be new buses provided, new roads laid. It does not cost the Dublin Corporation sweet Fanny Adams and the Deputy knows it. This is advanced as a solemn argument to refute what is a perfectly simple amendment. If the amendment does not appeal to the good sense of Deputy Briscoe, it certainly will appeal to the good sense of the people.

I do not understand Deputy O'Higgins. He said "sweet Fanny Adams" is his measure of the services given by a local authority.

Mr. O'Higgins

Did I say that?

I said by way of interjection and I say now that possibly the Deputy would understand that one of the services the corporation or a local authority renders is taking away refuse, emptying ashbins. That is apart from all the other services a local authority renders. People must be employed in carrying out these services. Their wages have to be paid. Every increase in property increases the need for services and maintenance. Of course, Deputy O'Higgins, who has not served for one hour on a public authority, does not know what he is talking about.

Is the amendment being pressed?

Mr. O'Higgins

I would like you to put the amendment to give the Deputy a chance of voting for it verbally.

I am against it before it is put.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Mr. O'Higgins

I move amendment No. 5:—

In sub-section (1), page 3, line 44, to delete "for rating purposes".

Before I start to deal with this, may I hope Deputy Briscoe will not become annoyed? The previous amendment having been defeated by the House, this amendment is to ensure that the reduction in valuation shall not be confined as the section says, merely to rating purposes. As the section stands, if improvements are carried out a revaluation takes place and the valuation goes up. That means that the owner of the building has to pay more in rates, more in income-tax and other charges of that kind. The section says that the remission given shall only be "for rating purposes". In other words, although there is a remission, although part of the valuation does not have its effect in relation to rates, it shall have its full effect immediately in relation to income-tax. It also follows that in relation to licensed premises there will be other charges for licence duty and so on.

The purpose of the amendment is to remove from the section the words "for rating purposes". The section would then read:—

"...the valuation of the tenement shall be deemed to be reduced by two-thirds of the increase."

That is an amendment that would appeal to Deputy Briscoe as being the very minimum that should be given. I cannot see that he will need any dustbin carriers to come to this amendment.

I wish it were possible that the Deputy's colleague, who is an experienced local authority representative and well experienced in briefing counsel, might not have briefed Deputy O'Higgins on this particular matter. When I read this amendment and heard Deputy O'Higgins talking about this point on the Second Stage, I said to myself: "This is Local Government legislating for local authorities, and Deputy O'Higgins is attempting in this to have Local Government legislating for the Department of Finance." I cannot question the rulings of the Chair, but when I saw the amendment on the Order Paper, I was surprised that it was in order.

Mr. O'Higgins

You mean you hoped it would be ruled out of order.

No. The Deputy waxed very hot on this particular item on the Second Stage, without giving us a single illustration of how it might affect the occupier of the particular house or building. I was hoping he would give us an illustration this evening. Meanwhile, since the Second Stage, I have been trying to find out what the two-thirds remission of the added income-tax would mean in £s. d. in particular types of buildings. I find that in connection with the reconstruction of or additions to existing hereditaments or tenements, as far as I could gather the difference involved would be very nominal. I agree that in the case of licensed premises other charges are of consequence, but they are separate from the ordinary non-licensed premises.

I am quite prepared to make this promise to the Deputy and to the House, that I will use my best endeavours in this House and outside it with the Minister for Finance when he comes along, to see if he can bring certain reliefs where reliefs are necessary in order to further employment through private enterprise. The Deputy must not forget, nor must I forget, that through the National Development Fund, local authorities and ratepayers are going to benefit by a very considerable sum of money being spent on their city or area, which will far outweigh in material matters the saving which will be given to them as suggested by the Deputy in a remission of two-thirds of the added income-tax payments arising from the added valuation.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Deputy asks for an example. He is not as innocent as he appears to be, he is not as naïve as he likes to think he is. The Deputy knows what Schedule A income-tax is.

Give us an instance.

Mr. O'Higgins

I want to probe the depth of the Deputy's knowledge first. He knows what used to be called property tax—Schedule A income-tax. At the moment, in relation to a house with a valuation of £20, an income-tax payer pays £25 income-tax. Does the Deputy follow, has the coin dropped?

You mean he pays on the basis of £25?

Mr. O'Higgins

He pays on five-fourths of the valuation of that particular house.

Unless he is in Waterford.

Does the Deputy say that on a house valued £20 the income-tax payment is £25?

Mr. O'Higgins

No. He pays income-tax on five-fourths of £20—he pays on £25.

Give us the amount in £ s. d.

Mr. O'Higgins

If improvements are carried out to the shop and the Valuation Office comes in to revalue, if it is on old shop, it may well be that the valuation would go up to £40.

And what difference would that make?

Mr. O'Higgins

It means he is then paying income-tax on £50 valuation.

I am interested in this, too.

Mr. O'Higgins

I am glad we have interested the Minister at last. Under the income-tax laws, Schedule A tax is based on five-fourths valuation— except, as Deputy Cunningham says, in the City of Waterford. That is done because, ordinarily speaking, our valuations are very nearly 100 years old. It has no sense when it is applied to the individual case where an individual revaluation has been carried out. When improvements are carried out to the house, instead of having an antiquated valuation of, say, £20 the Valuation Office come along and say, as they must under the Valuation Act of 1852: "We now have to find out the annual letting value of this tenement." They do so and, even being as generous as they possibly can to the owner of that particular house, they are driven, because of the Valuation Act of 1852, to step up the valuation from £20 possibly to £40 and indeed in a lot of cases to much higher than that. The income-tax law is still the same and the owner of that house continues to pay income-tax on five-fourths of the valuation. Instead of paying on five-fourths of £20, he will now be paying on five-fourths of £40. That is a very serious increase as regards the outgoings he has to face. I suggest to the Minister that there is very little use in expecting people to expend large sums of money for a two-thirds remission of rates. Many of them would be only spending a large sum of money if their shops, factories or buildings were old and antiquated. If they are new, with the modern valuation, then they are not going to need the expenditure of money. It is only the old house that is going to have the inside knocked out of it and a large sum of money expended on it under this Bill.

Or an entirely new building.

Mr. O'Higgins

I agree, but the argument that I am making obviously does not apply to a new building.

I know it does not.

Mr. O'Higgins

Obviously, it is only the old, the more ancient, house that will have a large expenditure made on it. It is ten to one that an old building will have an old valuation, one that was assessed at the time of Griffith's valuation in 1860. The person who expends money on that will have his house, his shop or whatever it may be, revalued, and again it is ten to one that this old small valuation will be stepped up 300, 400 or 500 per cent., with the result, in relation to income-tax, that the owner of that building, now paying on five-fourths, will have a modern poor law valuation put on the building. That is where the serious hardship comes in. I suggest to the Minister, leaving aside altogether the question of the licensed trade which, I know, is like a red rag to a bull when mentioned in this House if Deputy Briscoe is present——

I am not a teetotaller.

Mr. O'Higgins

I did not say that you were. Every time that the licensed trade is mentioned Deputy Briscoe gets annoyed.

I am not getting annoyed.

Mr. O'Higgins

I am referring to an ordinary person with a small factory or an old shop in this city or elsewhere who is expected to spend money in accordance with the terms of this Bill. If he does, he will spend a lot; if he spends a lot he will do a lot; if he does a lot his valuation will be increased a lot, and if his valuation is increased a lot his income-tax will increase a lot. That being the situation, the Minister, if he wants to make this Bill in any way effective, should, at least, provide that the remission given in relation to rates would also apply to all charges that follow inevitably from an increase in valuation, such as income-tax and, if Deputy Briscoe will permit me to say, in relation to the licensed trade. It will mean an increase in the excise duty, and it may also mean an increase in other charges which are not statutory such, for example, as electricity charges. If people are to be encouraged to expend money then, I suggest, it is only fair that they should get these minimum remissions.

I am going to resist the proposal that is being made of using this Bill for the purpose of dealing, as has been suggested by Deputy O'Higgins, with such things as income-tax, excise duties and Electricity Board charges. This Bill has been introduced for the purpose of giving rate remissions, and it is on that we stand. At the same time, I should like to deal with some of the claims that have been put forward by Deputy O'Higgins. He has cited the case of the businessman who may improve his premises and has his valuation increased. He is quite correct in saying that if that man has a valuation of £20 he pays income-tax on the basis of £25. I am advised that if a businessman's premises are improved and if his valuation, as a result of the improvements, were trebled that, being a businessman, he will pay no more income-tax than if his valuation had not been increased at all.

Mr. O'Higgins

Why?

I am advised that under Schedule A he will pay on the new valuation. He will pay income-tax on his profits under Schedule D. Whatever the new valuation might be the amount on which he will pay under Schedule A will be deducted from the amount on which he will pay under Schedule D, and that in the last analysis his position will be exactly the same.

That would be so in the case of a big man but not in that of a small man.

The principle is the same whether the man be big or small. It does not matter whether he is the owner of the premises or whether the premises are rented.

Mr. O'Higgins

Supposing he has no profits.

Well, he cannot carry on business unless he makes a profit.

Mr. O'Higgins

Let us suppose that he breaks even at the end of the year.

That is somewhat different, I admit, but it is a very small matter. The first Act in which the remission of rates under this code was proposed was the Local Government Act of 1925. Apparently, because of the phraseology that was used there was some doubt as to whether or not the remission applied only to rates. Those who were responsible in those days were so concerned that it would only apply to rates decided that whatever doubts there might be in the Local Government Act of 1925 would be clarified in the Finance Act. Therefore, in the Finance Act which followed, it was made perfectly clear that the remission given in the Local Government Act would only apply to rates. There can be no case made for using a measure of this kind to effect reliefs of one kind or another, whether they be income-tax, excise duties, electricity charges or any other. All these are matters that are debated in their own way and on other occasions. I have already said that this measure has been designed for a certain purpose, namely, to give a certain amount of rate relief to the owner of property or the person who creates a new property by putting his money into work of that kind. That is what we are aiming at in the Bill. My main approach to this amendment is that it seeks to do something that we should not attempt to do in a measure of this nature.

I listened carefully to Deputy O'Higgins when he was speaking. I wonder if he realises that he spoke as if all property in Dublin, anyway, was old property that had been valued 100 years ago.

Mr. O'Higgins

No.

I want to put on record that in 1914, before the adjoining townships in Dublin were taken over, the valuation of Dublin was £1,000,000. After the taking over of Rathmines, Pembroke and the other areas in 1920, the valuation of Dublin City was £1,150,000 approximately. Since then, the rate of building in Dublin has been so rapid and the city has expanded so much, that last year the valuation of Dublin City was £2,750,000, which would show that nearly two-thirds of the city cannot be said to have been valued under the old antiquated system. When I think of this Bill and its effects, I include the thought that people who have modern private houses may wish to make additions and get the benefits suggested, and I do not want to see the position dealt with on any other basis than its practical application in the area about which I know something. I should like Deputy O'Higgins to keep this in mind, that, if one does not deny an allegation, it will possibly be accepted as a fact and where the Deputy got the idea, first, that I was a teetotaller and, secondly, opposed to the licensed trade, I do not know.

It does not arise on the amendment.

I was accused of that. I am as good a friend of some of these men as the Deputy and I think I can take my drink as well as the Deputy.

Mr. O'Higgins

Deputy Briscoe is under a misapprehension on two points. I merely referred to Deputy Briscoe and not to his opposition to the licensed trade. I know what a good friend of the trade he is, but every time I refer, in relation to this matter, to the licensed trader as an example, there is a hullabaloo from Deputy Briscoe: "Oh, Fine Gael and the licensed trade."

Let none of us boast of our friendship with them.

Mr. O'Higgins

It is something we have to tolerate and the Minister for Finance is often very glad of it. Deputy Briscoe says that the position is that half, or perhaps more, of the property valuation in Dublin is represented by buildings of a newer kind. I am sure that is so, but the Deputy did not appreciate the point I was endeavouring to make, perhaps poorly. In so far as this Bill contemplates the expenditure of money on enlargement or improvement, it is reasonable to expect that that expenditure will take place on the older types of buildings.

The families in many houses have grown so much that they need new rooms.

Mr. O'Higgins

Apart from that, it is reasonable to expect that the houses on which the greatest amount of money will be spent are the older houses. That appears to me to be good sense. I cannot imagine a new house in Mount Merrion at the moment requiring as much expenditure as an old house in the centre of the city, and, if money were to be spent on them, naturally it is the older houses will require the greater expenditure. The only point I was making was that, that being so, one is more likely to find, in relation to people who expend money under the Bill, that they are spending it on houses which have the old valuation, and, where they have the old valuation, the result will be a very considerable increase in income-tax and other charges.

Might I ask if these two questions, the licensed trade and Schedule A income-tax, are tied up with other Departments? If we accepted the amendment, could it happen that other Departments, especially Finance, might have a say in it and might take the same attitude as was taken in respect of the first reduction of valuation?

All I can say is that we will not take these or any other risks.

Amendment declared lost.
Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 not moved.
Sections 4, 5 and 6 agreed to.
SECTION 7.

I move amendment No. 8:—

To add to the section a new sub-section as follows:—

(2) This section shall not take effect until a general revaluation of the County of Donegal is made and adopted for rating purposes.

I gave an outline of the reasons why I was perturbed by this provision in relation to the urban area of Buncrana which is in my constituency. Had this Bill been before the House in any of the years from 1944 to 1950, I do not think I could have "crabbed" the proposals because, owing to the volume of business that came into the area from people from Derry City, I felt they could pay any reasonable sum. During those years, the maximum amount of business that could possibly be done in any town was being done in the urban area of Buncrana. The people of Derry City were short of every kind of provisions and they made for Buncrana by train, bus, motor car, bicycle and on foot, but all that has passed. During those years, these people who were making money progressively invested an enormous amount of it in reconstructing their businesses and they are now saddled with liabilities arising from these improvements. The improvements were carried out on the assumption that this condition of affairs was going to continue. It is a weakness of human nature to think that, when there is a full tide, it will never recede and they did not think the evil day would arrive in spite of anything they could do.

The valuation of this urban area was increased from £7,000 to £11,000 and I pointed out on Second Reading what was taking place there. During the past year, four drapery shops have closed down, due to the falling off in business because of increased supplies in the Six Counties, and the buying of goods in Buncrana urban area by people from Derry has disappeared. These people are now faced with this liability which was due originally to some cock-eyed proceedings at the urban council meeting where the proposal for revaluation was carried by the casting vote of the chairman and carried against the will of the citizens and ratepayers generally.

The businesses which remain there, the few textile industries there are in the town, will be put in a position, arising from this revaluation, of being unable to compete and will be finally driven out of business. This would be a major disaster for the town which has five little factories on which it lives. It has no other means of livelihood and the only pay packets earned in the area are earned in these five textile factories. I shudder to think what is to be the consequence of this when the burden of those increased valuations will fall on these people. Having been caught with it, they probably hope to struggle through, but they cannot. There is no doubt about it. I have no doubt about it. I have been long enough connected with business and seeing the cycle of events in the economic world to know what will happen. Money will get scarcer, people will get poorer and competition will increase to an absolutely cutthroat extent and those people will be crushed out by taxation. It has been admitted by everybody in this country and by all political Parties that taxation has already reached saturation point, and in the face of that this community, whose existence depends on doing first a trade with the rest of the country in competition with manufacturers who are not saddled to the same extent with regard to overhead charges —I cannot see how they are going to survive. In my opinion, it cannot be done, and I would appeal to the Minister to withdraw the proposal provided for in this sub-section.

I do it with the utmost and gravest sense of responsibility for the welfare of this community. They are an excellent people, hardworking, with industries there for perhaps 70 years, who have survived without any protection of any kind. Long before this State was set up they were fit to compete successfully with Lancashire and wanted no protection whatever but the sheer merit, quality and technique of their work. It would be a dreadful thing if that community, through a mishap or perhaps the blunder of one man, would have their whole future and their destiny destroyed by what happened and what is provided for in this Bill.

I attended last night a meeting of the Buncrana ratepayers where this part of the Bill was discussed. There are three things that I would like to put before the Minister as a result of my own reading of the Bill and understanding of the situation as it exists in Buncrana and as a result of some of the proposals put before me at the meeting of ratepayers, which consisted of all political Parties. It was a meeting of all ratepayers and we had represented all political Parties and all organisations.

The first point is that they are in favour of accepting the Schedule, with this suggestion to the Minister; and the suggestion refers to the grading, that is, starting with £8,500 and adding to that basic figure an increase of £330 to the valuation per year for county-atlarge charges. You will notice that £330 is the figure added each year to the £8,500. The Minister explained that that figure was arrived at by finding the valuations for the four years 1946, 1947, 1948 and 1949 and finding an average of those and adding that to the old valuation. Now the people at the meeting, and I as well, do not quarrel with finding an average, but we do not agree that the four years chosen were suitable years on which to base an average.

I would point out to the Minister that during those four years there was a period of intense building activity in the town of Buncrana, one of the reasons being that mentioned by Deputy McMenamin, that it was a boom town during the emergency period for the reasons Deputy McMenamin has stated. The emergency being over, the war being over, money and materials and so on being available, increased building activity did occur to the extent that during the four years on which the Minister has based his calculations two shirt factories were erected, one hosiery factory was extended considerably, an urban council building scheme of 48 houses for the people of Buncrana was erected, and over and above that, there was a spate of reconstruction and very many private houses were built. To base an average which is going to affect the town of Buncrana for the next ten years on the four most prosperous years that Buncrana ever had or ever will have is not fair, I think. They do agree that an average should be found, and it has been suggested to me, and I agree with this suggestion, that seeing that the average is going to remain for another ten years, it would be only fair to go back for a period of ten years and arrive at an average based on the increase for those ten years. I would put that suggestion very strongly to the Minister. I have not studied what the figures for those ten years were but I do know that they would be nothing like what the increases in valuation that did take place for those four years were. I think it is most unfair to base it on those. The meeting last night, and I myself now, put that to the Minister as a suggestion, as a basis on which to arrive at something fair, something which would not go all the way but will go a good part of the way to meet the situation. I might mention that during those four years a very big dance hall was also built, which further increased the valuation.

The next point in connection with this that I want to mention is that already from the period when the higher valuations came into operation a sum of £8,000 has been paid to the county council. That is, since 1951 up to 1953 a sum of over £8,000 over and above their just payments has been made to the Donegal County Council. Had this Bill come into operation in 1951 rather than now it would have saved the ratepayers of Buncrana a total sum of £8,000. If an injustice is being remedied under this Bill, and I grant that it is being remedied, I want the Minister to go further and remedy the injustice of having Buncrana paying £8,000 to the Donegal County Council over and above what they should pay had this Bill been effective and over and above what any other town of the same population and valuation in the county has to pay. I urge that a method be found to recoup those ratepayers on that score. I know it is impossible to get the county council to fork out the £8,000 that has been paid and I suggest that this Bill be amended in such a way as to save that £8,000 over a period of ten years by reducing the figure added each year.

I want the Minister to do two things. I want him to reduce the figure of £330 to £250 because it is based on an exceptional period; I want him to further reduce that figure by such amount as will recoup the ratepayers of Buncrana the £8,000 they have been unjustly asked to pay to the Donegal County Council.

The third point I want to mention is in relation to licence duty, Schedule A income-tax and electricity charges. When the revision took place in Buncrana and the figure jumped from £7,000 to £11,000—it is now over £12,000—these charges also jumped. The licence duty went up fairly steeply. Schedule A income-tax increased. So far the electricity charges are not affected but they will be so soon as preparations are completed to supply the town with E.S.B. current. Special arrangements have been made in relation to Schedule A income-tax with reference to the City of Waterford. Instead of paying on five-fourths of the valuation, as is done throughout the country, Waterford City for the very same reason as exists in Buncrana has received a special concession through the medium of legislation passed here and is getting off with four-fourths: in Waterford City they pay on the actual valuation instead of on five-fourths. I suggest the same concession should be given to Buncrana in relation to Schedule A income-tax and that the licence duty be amended as well.

I am concerned to deal with the effect of the amendment proposed by Deputy McMenamin before replying to the argument advanced by Deputy Cunningham, an argument which has no practical bearing upon the amendment and the effect it would have if it were accepted. The amendment asks that this section shall not take effect until a general revaluation of the County of Donegal is made and adopted for rating purposes. Does Deputy McMenamin appreciate the effect that would have?

I would like to hear it.

The legal valuation of Buncrana at the moment is £11,329. I am proposing in Section 7 to provide a method by which the urban authority of Buncrana will receive the county demand on the basis of £8,000 odd in respect of this year.

The county council does not lose anything thereby.

Of course, it does. It would be very strange if it did not. If the county council would not get more from Buncrana on a valuation of £12,000 than it would get on a valuation of £8,000, that is a most peculiar form of reasoning. Deputy McMenamin proposes that Section 7, on which the Schedule that I propose is based and to which it is linked, should not come into effect until such time as the County of Donegal as a whole is revalued. The result of that would be that the town of Buncrana would pay not, as I propose, on a valuation of £8,000, but on a valuation of nearly £12,000. Deputy McMenamin must not have given any thought to the effect this amendment would have. He makes the case here as to the plight of the ratepayers in that town and he proposes, at the same time, an amendment which if accepted would have the effect of making the position for the next ten years a good deal worse.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 7 put and agreed to.
SECTION 8.
Question proposed: "That Section 8 stand part of the Bill."

Deputy Cunningham has made some arguments which I might deal with now. I think the burden of the case made by Deputy Cunningham was that the years which we took in order to arrive at the actual increase that should take place were unfavourable in the sense that they were years of progress and expansion. The revaluation took place in 1950. We found the average by this process. We took the average for the two years prior to 1950, which was £450. Then we took the average for three years prior to 1950 and it was £332. Then we took the average for four years prior to 1950 and it was £287. Then we took the average for five years prior to 1950 and it was £256. We added these four together and we got a figure of £1,325. We divided that by four and we arrived at the figure of £331. That is the way in which we arrived at the figure of the annual increase for the next ten years.

The Deputy says that these were years of advancement and great business, but in the war years there was no activity at all in the way of business because there were no materials. Surely it would not be fair to take any of these years as representative of a normal year for Buncrana or any other town. The Deputy does not seem to realise, nor does Deputy McMenamin seem to realise just how much what we are proposing to do here means for Buncrana. The valuation as determined in 1951 was £11,446. There have been, I suppose, some increases since. As the result of this Bill when it becomes an Act, for county demand purposes Buncrana will be creeping to that figure for the next ten years by additions of £330 each year, but the natural normal development that will be taking place in Buncrana between now and then will not be included at all. Therefore, Buncrana will be getting the additional advantage for the next ten years of that fact.

You put an end to any hope of that.

No, I did not. We are trying to talk on this intelligently and I do not want to be nasty. As I explained on the Second Reading, I am trying to do something that I felt reluctant to do because, after all, here was a step that was taken, whether by the casting vote of the chairman or otherwise. The request was made for the revaluation and, apparently, they did not foresee the result of what that step would be. As one who had no responsibility whatever, nor had my predecessor or any Department of State, in any shape or form, I am trying to struggle through with a proposal that would at least substantially ease the position of those ratepayers from whom Deputy McMenamin will receive a vote and I will receive nothing at all only the abuse that Deputy McMenamin will try, with misrepresentations sometimes even in relation to this matter, to push over my way. I do not mind that, but it is no harm to remember that in my efforts here to meet a situation that I know was a bit unfortunate—it was stupid, it was certainly a very unsatisfactory step from their point of view— I should have the sympathy and encouragement of one of the Deputies who will benefit more from what I am doing than anybody else.

I am not therefore prepared to take the suggestion made here. As far as the case cited in connection with income-tax is concerned, I think we disposed of that on another amendment. If a business premises in Buncrana is improved and if the income-tax is determined on the new valuation arrived at in 1951 as the result of the revaluation of the town, the owner of the business premises will pay under Schedule A and the amount on which he paid under Schedule A will be deducted from the amount on which he pays under Schedule D. It may mean something in the matter of electricity charges or licence duty, but as far as income-tax is concerned I cannot see where it will have any detrimental effects to business people whose valuations are increased. Anyhow, I am making this general claim, that this is a matter in which I succeeded in interesting the Government. It is a local matter; it was their own act. This Bill had nothing to do with Buncrana in the sense that we are attempting to cover the situation there. If I succeeded in interesting the Government to the extent of inducing them to give me permission to include in this measure proposals to ease the position for the people there, then I think I should not be expected to go further than, in my view, it would be fair to ask me.

Now that the Minister, by inserting this Part III of the Bill, has remedied to a great extent the position as it existed in Buncrana, I hate to think that he would not remove the fly or two from the ointment. It is a pity not to do something, in the first place, about reducing the figure at least to £300 or to £280 and, in the second place, not to do something about the unjust payment of £8,000 which has been made to the county council. I grant you that all this has been the result of bad work done by the urban council. I know that it did take some effort on the Minister's part to get round to fixing the situation. After all, in Donegal, away up in the north, we are far away from the Department of Local Government here in the city and it was a good thing that the situation impressed itself so much on the minds of the Minister and the officials of his Department. They saw that there was something to be remedied when they took these steps. It is, however, a pity that the two snags which exist at the moment could not be remedied. In regard to Schedule A tax, the Minister has said that the situation is not so serious because by paying in one way you get it back in another. There must, however, have been some very good reason why, when a similar 100 per cent. increase in valuation took place in Waterford, the Minister was induced—it may not have been the Minister but his predecessor—to agree that instead of paying tax on five-fourths of the valuation, the City of Waterford should pay only on four-fourths. The same good reason, I suggest, existed in the case of Buncrana.

Question put and agreed to.
Amendments Nos. 9 to 18, inclusive, not moved.
Schedule and Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
Report Stage fixed for Thursday, 18th February.
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