Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Dec 1954

Vol. 147 No. 12

Supplementary and Additional Estimates. - Vote 38—Local Government.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. O'Donnell)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1955, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government, including grants to local authorities, grants and other expenses in connection with housing and miscellaneous grants, including a Grant-in-Aid.

We have unprecedented flooding and unprecedented action has been taken by the Government, and I would appeal to the House to take unprecedented action by granting the Vote-in-Aid without discussion.

Major de Valera

What exactly will it cover?

Mr. O'Donnell

What is set out in the Order Paper.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I understood the two Votes had been taken together and there cannot be any discussion on the Votes at this stage.

Mr. De Valera

On a mere detail— how is the money to be provided? I know about the £10 figure, but usually where there is a grant, funds are obtained from savings or something like that. From what fund will you get the money that is immediately necessary between now and the 9th February?

Mr. Dillon

At the present moment food is being supplied on the Army Vote. In fact, the persons who were taken into the homes are being treated as if they were members of the Army and are being given Army rations per diem. That must be dealt with by retrospective recoupment to this Department for the expenditure laid out. It is intended to have an imprest officer in charge of the special funds, that may be determined, to be expended, who will disburse in individual cases on my direction in the light of information supplied to me from the committees set up. The sums of money used will have to receive authorisation from this House by a subsequent Supplementary Estimate. When we can give the House more precise information as to the amount required, the sources from which the money will be derived will be indicated to the House, as soon as possible.

Mr. de Valera

Is not that a strange procedure?

Mr. Dillon

Can the Deputy indicate any other course? I agree it is a strange procedure, but it is a strange situation.

Mr. de Valera

I would imagine a sum would be sought on an account of some magnitude.

Mr. Dillon

The difficulty is we do not know what sum will be involved.

Mr. de Valera

Oh, I see that, and I see from the tactical point of view the advantages of proceeding in this way.

Mr. Dillon

At the earliest possible date after reassembling we will bring a further Supplementary Estimate before the House in which the moneys necessary will be indicated and the expenditure necessary explained.

Mr. de Valera

How is the Red Cross to be put in funds?

Mr. Dillon

The Red Cross has funds.

Mr. de Valera

Not very much.

Mr. Dillon

It has a certain sum. Whether it will be possible to provide further sums without a special Supplementary Estimate I do not know but, as the Leader of the Opposition understands, there are more ways of killing a cat than choking it with a pound of butter.

Mr. de Valera

I am interested in the particular way in which this is to be done.

Mr. Dillon

If the Red Cross wants a bit of credit from the bank I do not suppose the Joint Stock Banks will refuse to give them an overdraft of 3/9, if they badly want it to carry out, at the direction of the Government, the relief of distress.

Mr. de Valera

I hope that the mind of the Ministers and the Government is not closed with regard to the method in which they will deal with areas outside, or individuals or groups outside the Shannon catchment and the Tolka. It seems to me that the procedure followed in regard to these two areas—that is the committee— would be a good procedure to follow in the other cases too. If there was a third committee, or something of that sort, it would be very much more satisfactory than the Red Cross in dealing with areas outside, if it is the intention of the Government to deal with areas outside.

Mr. Dillon

I shall certainly indicate that view to the Government and I can assure the Leader of the Opposition that it will be carefully considered.

Mr. S. Flanagan

On a point of order. In the course of continued interruption when I was speaking earlier this evening the Minister for Agriculture accused me of dealing in falsehood. He has had an opportunity of indicating to the House now in what manner I was dealing in falsehood and he has not done so.

Mr. Dillon

I did, most eloquently, but the Deputy was not here. My prophecy was that the Deputy would not be here, and he was not here.

Mr. S. Flanagan

I was here.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I understand these Estimates are being taken together.

Major de Valera

Normally when there is a Vote—the Minister will correct me if I am wrong in this— there are usually sums somewhere else in some cognate Department, which can be drawn upon. Is that not so?

Mr. Dillon

Not a cognate Department. It is usually an anticipated surplus in the Vote.

Major de Valera

Or there may be an Appropriation-in-Aid because of non-expenditure in some other direction. We understand that this is clearly, shall I say, a unique occasion and I can see the Minister's difficulty; but there does not seem to be any funds. The Minister has mentioned the Army; it may be that there are surplus funds available there at the moment that can be temporarily drawn on, but I do not know that that is so. If there are not surplus funds, a question of borrowing would appear to be involved in effect. Is there any legal or other difficulty arising in the actual implementation of this? The Minister has moved a token Vote of £10. Will he find himself in any embarrassment when it comes to expenditure because of lack of statutory power?

Mr. Dillon

I can assure the Deputy that the purpose of bringing in a token Vote of £10 is merely to use the device of the Supplementary Estimate to get the authority of Dáil Éireann to proceed. When the House reassembles, as the Deputy will recall, usually at the end of the financial year, Supplementary Estimates are brought in where extra moneys are required. Such a Supplementary Estimate will be brought forward when a sum approximating to what has been spent, or will be spent, will be named in such Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. de Valera

Is there any money in the Contingency Fund?

Mr. Dillon

Very probably. As the Leader of the Opposition knows blooming well, when he was in office and wanted £100,000 he went to the Secretary of the Department of Finance and said: "Get that somewhere and we will bring in a Supplementary Estimate." How in heck do I know where it is, but it is somewhere. The purpose of this Supplementary Estimate is to get the authority of Oireachtas Éireann to spend public money. Now, when we want money to relieve our people of distress, let me assure the Irish nation that the Irish Exchequer is damn well able to bear the burden. How it bears the burden or by what mysterious acrobatics the Department of Finance finds the money I do not know; but, as the Leader of the Opposition knows, when he was in Government he was told every morning that there was not sixpence in the kitty, but if he wanted a £1,000,000 in the afternoon he got it.

Vote put and agreed to.

Supplementary Estimates reported and agreed to.