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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 24 Nov 1955

Vol. 153 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Agricultural Produce (Cereals) (Amendment) Bill, 1955—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This Bill is essentially a Bill to incorporate in the Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Acts certain temporary legislation, mainly relating to wheat, which came into existence during the war and post-war years. If not so incorporated, this temporary legislation would lapse on expiration of the Supplies and Services (Temporary Provisions) Acts. It consists for the most part of Orders which are the concern of the Minister for Agriculture but also includes some Orders administered by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who is concerned with wheat after it has reached the mill floor. The Bill contains nothing that is new in principle. It does not involve extra expenditure and will not affect revenue.

Ever since the passing of the Emergency Powers Act, 1939, new legislation regarding the price, marketing and milling of wheat has been by way of Orders made under that Act, the Emergency Powers Order, 1939, or the Supplies and Services (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1946. This new legislation arose only in part from emergency conditions and some of it would, in the normal course, have been the subject of a new Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Act, of which nine were passed in the years preceding the war. Other Orders were the result of emergency conditions but as they have proved to be of value or to be an improvement on the previous legislation, the Bill provides for their retention.

The most important section of the Bill is Section 2, with which is linked Section 15, under which certain repeals are provided for. The object of Section 2 is to enable the Minister for Agriculture to make an annual Order controlling the price, marketing and disposal of wheat on the same general lines as the Wheat Order, 1955. An Order similar to the Wheat Order, 1955, has been made in every year since 1942. In passing, I may mention that the Bill does not interfere in any way with the machinery established by the Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Act, 1935, to ensure that all home-grown millable wheat is purchased by the mills as it comes on the market and is subsequently milled.

The main provisions of the annual Wheat Order, as made in recent years, are as follows: (i) Legal effect is given to the decision of the Government in regard to the price for millable wheat of the harvest in question; (ii) purchase of wheat from growers is restricted to certain categories of purchasers, including licensed mills (purchasing directly or through licensed agents), licensed wheat dealers and holders of seed (wheat) assembler's permits; (iii) control is exercised over the use of wheat by purchasers thereof; and (iv) certain commission, handling or storage charges payable to licensed agents or persons collecting wheat on behalf of mills are fixed and also resale prices for wheat sold by licensed wheat dealers.

Before 1942, wheat was bought directly by the mills and also by a large number of registered wheat dealers who resold wheat to the mills. In that year each registered wheat dealer actually in business (with the exception of about 30 firms) was required to become the licensed agent of a particular mill, for which he was authorised to purchase a specified maximum quantity, on a commission basis. Approximately 30 firms were permitted to retain an independent status as dealers entitled to purchase and resell wheat. These firms were dealers equipped with drying and storage facilities who, because of the large scale of their dealings in wheat or because they had multiple branches, could not suitably be attached to a particular mill. The changes introduced in 1942 were designed to secure equitable distribution of available supplies between the mills, avoidance of undue competition and transport and elimination of unnecessary handling and storage of wheat on the way to the mills.

The wheat marketing system established by the Order has, in general, remained unchanged since. Broadly speaking, apart from wheat purchased from the limited number of independent dealers, wheat is now purchased by the mills themselves, either directly or through some 300 licensed agents acting on a commission basis. These arrangements have operated satisfactorily since they were introduced and result in more economical handling of wheat.

The Emergency Powers (Cereals) Order, 1941, introduced a system of control over the assembly of seed wheat by purchase from growers. This, with modifications, has been incorporated in successive annual Orders made in the meantime, including the Wheat Order, 1955. Under these arrangements the purchase of wheat from growers for resale as seed is restricted to holders of permits, who are required to furnish returns of their transactions, and quality standards are fixed for seed wheat. It is considered advisable to retain these arrangements, with a view to ensuring that seed wheat is assembled in suitable premises, that minimum standards of quality are maintained and that accurate information of stocks held is available. The system also makes it possible to allocate import licences for seed wheat in proportion to native assembly.

There is not now the same need as during the emergency period to control the resale, disposal or use of wheat purchased from growers but it is considered advisable to retain the general powers in this regard conferred by Article 10 of the Wheat Order, 1955. Under Section 17 of the Cereals Act, 1935, home-grown wheat may not be disposed of by the holder of a milling licence, for purposes other than milling, except under licence of the Minister for Agriculture. It is considered that the power under the Wheat Order to enable control to be exercised over, e.g., the drying and sale of wheat by licensed wheat dealers and the disposal of surplus seed wheat by seed (wheat) assemblers should be maintained.

The annual Wheat Order made in recent years has also fixed certain commission, handling and storage charges payable to licensed agents or sack distributors and also prices for wheat resold by wheat dealers. It is proposed to retain power to fix these charges and prices in order to maintain uniformity of remuneration to licensed agents, and others, in respect of the services rendered by them and to ensure that wheat dealers receive a fair price for wheat sold by them, whether artificially dried or not. Sections 12 and 13 of the Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Act, 1935 were suspended by the Emergency Powers (No. 39) Order, 1940, and the Emergency Powers (No. 201) Order, 1942. Section 15 of the Bill make this suspension permanent.

Section 15 also revokes sub-section (1) of Section 62 of the 1933 Act. This sub-section limited the purchase for resale of wheat to persons registered under the Act as wheat dealers. Retention of this provision would not serve any useful purpose now that the arrangements for wheat marketing which have been in operation in recent years are being put on a permanent basis.

Section 4 of the Bill provides for the replacement of Article 3 of the Emergency Powers (No. 39) Order, 1940, which provides that, subject to compliance with certain conditions, artificially dried wheat purchased by the holder of a milling licence may be deemed, for the purposes of the Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Acts, to be the equivalent amount of undried wheat in the ratio 280 barrels of dried wheat equalling 300 barrels of undried wheat.

I want at this stage to inform the House that it may be possible to work out a system whereby the mills' handling of wheat will in future be determined on a basis of flour and offals produced, and if that more simple method of calculation is decided upon it may be possible to drop this whole practice of adopting the arbitrary ratio of 280 barrels of dried wheat corresponding to 300 barrles of undried wheat; but I will return to that topic on the Committee Stage of the Bill, if that meets the convenience of the House.

The Cereals Acts impose various obligations on the holders of milling licences in regard to the milling and purchase of wheat. The purpose of Article 3 of the Emergency Powers (No. 39) Order, 1940, was to ensure that holders of milling licences who purchased portion of their requirements in the form of dried wheat might be credited, for the purpose of ascertaining the extent of their compliance with the Acts, with the purchase or use of the equivalent larger quantity of undried wheat. Correspondingly, the order also provided that sales of dried wheat by the holder of a milling licence might be deemed to be the undried equivalent.

As moisture content in wheat may vary considerably from year to year, it is proposed to have, instead of a rigid 280:300 ratio, such ratio as may be fixed by Order having regard to the circumstances of the season concerned. I say that subject to the interpolation to which I have directed the attention of the House.

Section 6 of the Bill replaces the Emergency Powers (Storage of Grain) Order, 1942. This Order was made at a time when it was particularly important to prevent loss or deterioration of grain. It has not been found necessary to make much use of the powers conferred by the Order but it is considered advisable to retain them, particularly as grain stores are exempt from certain provisions of the Food Hygiene Regulations, 1950.

Section 9 of the Bill provides for the determination of moisture content in wheat in accordance with a method which has been prescribed in the annual Wheat Order since 1943. Under the Wheat Order as made in recent years, price deductions fall to be made in respect of excess moisture content in wheat purchased from growers. I am advised that there are on the market various types of rapid-action moisture testing apparatus but that these do not give uniformly accurate results, particularly in the higher moisture ranges. It is, accordingly, considered advisable to continue to specify the oven method, which gives accurate results and is reasonably simple of execution.

Sections 3, 5, 7 and 8 of the Bill are primarily the concern of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and I propose merely to indicate very briefly their purport.

Section 3 is designed to permit the Minister for Industry and Commerce to vary milling quotas in circumstances where his present powers under the Cereals Acts are inadequate. It has been necessary in recent years to have resort for this purpose to the making of Orders under emergency legislation.

Section 5 of the Bill replaces Article 6 of the Wheat Milling Order, 1953, and is designed to permit the Minister for Industry and Commerce, with the concurrence of the Minister for Agriculture, to relieve the holder of a milling licence from the obligation to mill the national percentage of home-grown wheat if there are special circumstances which justify that course.

The effect of Section 7 is to place wheat milled into wheatenmeal for biscuit-making on the same footing as wheat milled into flour for the same purpose.

Section 8 of the Bill gives permanent effect to an import concession first granted in the Flour and Wheatenmeal (Importation) Order, 1947.

The remaining sections of the Bill do not, I think, call for any special comment.

In conclusion, I would again like to remind Deputies that there is little that is new in the Bill, which, broadly speaking, makes alternative provision for matters contained in temporary legislation which came into existence over the last 15 years.

It would have been very helpful if the Minister had issued an explanatory note when he was circulating this Bill. On first looking through the Bill, I saw many sections there about which I was a little perturbed, but having heard the explanation given by the Minister, I take it it is only bringing up to date all the Orders that have been made down through the years and including them in the one measure.

This may be a very opportune time for a discussion on wheat and the methods of purchase, sale, and so forth. Since the advent of combines particularly, a very big change has taken place, that is, regarding moisture. As the Minister has pointed out, there are gadgets now in many of the mills for testing the moisture content of wheat. In many cases, they are not very accurate, and there is a great difference of opinion regarding the correctness of the return that may be given from time to time, because of the variation that takes place from mill to mill. Farmers may have a sample of wheat tested at one mill where a moisture content of 22 per cent. may be recorded; it goes to another agent, and it may be 24 per cent. One wonders why that happens. No change has taken place in the wheat; yet there is not a uniform return of moisture content. That has given rise to a great deal of criticism regarding this apparatus which has been installed in a number of mills.

Possibly the time has come when farmers' representatives should be at the mills to see that the bushelling is right, that the wheat is properly weighed and that the moisture content is right. It has been done with success in the case of beet and there has been no difficulty about it. It has been in operation for almost 30 years and the fact of having these supervisors at the factories tended to promote greater harmony between the managers of the factories and the growers.

The Deputy will not misinterpret it if I ask him a question? Has he considered this difficulty, that there are four factories and over 300 points of intake for wheat?

I am coming to that point. In the earlier stages, there were many criticisms by the farmers relating to sugar content of beet, and so forth, but, after some years, when they knew the supervisors were there, the criticisms ceased, and far greater harmony existed between the managers of the company and the farmers' representatives. The Minister has raised the point that it would be very difficult to get supervisors into the mills. I agree it is a very difficult problem, but I think it can be solved. First of all, I think there are something like 350 agents and dealers in the country buying wheat, and it would be necessary, in order to have proper supervision, to put a man into the agent's store and have him test every sample. It would mean that he would have to remain there day in and day out and, of course, it would mean the employment of 350 men which would amount to a very big sum. Even so, it might be worth it, if there was a man put in. A levy of 2d. or 3d. a barrel should be sufficient to enable any organisation—for instance, the National Farmers' Association, if they took over the responsibility of appointing these men—to pay supervisors at the mills or at the agents' stores.

The reason I have raised this matter is that I am wondering if the Minister would include it in the Bill, and make provision for the deduction of that sum of money by the purchasers of wheat to enable the National Farmers' Association, or some other appropriate body, which would have the responsisibility of having these men appointed, to collect this money from the millers or from the agents. At the moment this question of testing is giving rise to a good deal of trouble and dissatisfaction regarding the moisture content.

I have seen cases where there is a difference of 2 or 3 per cent. If there is supervision the farmer feels that he is getting an honest return in the bushel weight and in the moisture content and in the weighing of his wheat. During the war years in most districts farmers went to the trouble of barrelling wheat, weighing it themselves at their threshings but with the advent of the combine that has gone. Now the farmer has to depend on the honesty of the man employed by the agent or the miller who is weighing his corn for return.

Section 4, I thought, meant something more than it does. It refers to allowances in respect of artificially dried home-grown wheat. I thought the Minister would have made provision for paying to the farmer the price fixed for dried grain or dried wheat, that, in other words, we had now arrived at the stage that farmers would be permitted to dry their own wheat and store it if necessary and get the dried grain price for it. I think it is not the Minister's intention to include that in this Bill, is it?

Section 4, sub-section (1) reads:—

"(1) Where—

(a) any home-grown wheat is purchased by a purchaser who is the holder of a milling licence, and

(b) the wheat has been subjected before the purchase to an artificial process of drying, and

(c) the vendor and purchaser of the wheat have informed the Minister of the transaction and furnished to him such particulars thereof as he may require,

I thought the Minister would have included the farmer in order to encourage farmers to co-operate in the erection of silos and stores and the installation of drying plants. If the Minister were prepared to include in this Bill farmers who would co-operate and combine to have their wheat dried and stored it might be to the advantage of the millers and the State.

The Minister set out last year in his Wheat Order to try and get farmers to keep their wheat until after Christmas. He offered an additional price in the Spring-time for that purpose but he has not succeeded in convincing many farmers that there was any great advantage in doing that. There are many factors operating against that. Want of money is the principal one. Farmers could not wait until Spring for their harvest money. There is difficulty in keeping the wheat in ricks or stacks and in saving it from vermin. There is a shortage of storage accommodation. All these factors have to be taken into consideration. I do not believe that we can ever get back to the system we had 25, 30 or 40 years ago, where the farmers kept their corn in ricks until Spring-time. If farmers were compensated by way of a better price, a price much more attractive than the Minister made it this year, there is a possibility that groups of farmers might combine and erect their own silos and do their own drying. No provision is made in this Bill for that type of person. It states here specifically that only the holder of a milling licence, who has put it through a process of drying, or his agent, is entitled to get the dried grain price for wheat.

Section 5 provides:—

"The Minister for Industry and Commerce may, with the concurrence of the Minister, by licence relieve, to such extent and subject to compliance with such conditions as he may specify in the licence, the holder of a milling licence from the obligation to mill an amount of home-grown wheat calculated by reference to the appointed national percentage."

Am I to take it that this section gives authority to the Minister to issue an Order to any particular miller absolving him from this obligation of milling a percentage of home-grown grain?

I think it is a power the Deputy himself had as Minister and I think it is never used except for marginal adjustment.

There is a danger in it, a grave danger.

You must have some kind of flexibility for marginal cases and I think that is what this is for.

I can see the danger if we had a grass Minister in Merrion Street who did not want wheat grown. There would be nothing to prevent him from making an Order, absolving, for instance, the Dublin Port Millers. They are not too happy about milling Irish wheat. We all know that. They would much prefer to be milling Manitoba. If at some future time we had such a person occupying the Ministry in Merrion Street, he could do a lot of damage.

If we are moving over into West Limerick, I will not follow.

This is not from West Limerick——

That is all right. They are quite entitled to it.

—unless the Minister is conscious of what I am saying, unless he has a guilty conscience that he would be thinking in that way. It would not affect any person who was determined to have wheat grown or to have it milled here but there is a grave danger that the particular mill in Dublin might say: "We do not want to mill this Irish wheat. We much prefer to mill the foreign wheat" and the Minister could say: "Very well, I will absolve you. I will not ask you to mill it" and he could issue an Order.

Even though I have recently returned from Rome, I do not claim the right to administer absolution.

You got it over there, I am sure. We were absolving the Minister from a lot of things while he was away—for instance, that statement that was made regarding the movement of money, men and goods.

We had better keep to the Bill. We may get into deep waters.

I take it that that power was there already. I have just drawn the attention of the Minister to the fact that it is a dangerous provision to retain. It could be very well got rid of.

There is another power that I did not know was in existence. It is No. 3 in the First Schedule:

"A person shall not, during the sale season, exchange any wheat or the product of any wheat for any other commodity or exchange any other commodity for any wheat or the product of any wheat."

What exactly does that mean? Why retain such a provision? Otherwise, we have no objection to the Bill going through. Possibly, given a little time to examine it more fully, other Deputies might have amendments but, as regards the Bill, there is no objection, as far as I can see.

I am very glad to see that the Emergency Powers Orders for the last few years relating to wheat are being merged into one Bill. There is nothing new in it except, I think, Section 4, and I am quite certain that Section 4 was changed because of the advent of the combine harvester and also because of last year's harvest. Up to that date it was a fact that for the purpose of assessing what was the milling licence of a mill it was taken that he had lost 6? per cent. in the drying of wheat—280 to every 300 barrels dried was to be his dried wheat when finished irrespective of what was the actual weight. With the advent of the combine harvester, it is obvious that there must be a greater range of moisture content, and in wet years damper wheat. As a result I think that change is very necessary because for instance wheatmeal millers at the present moment in some instances do not supply a quantity of meal sufficient for all the country. It would be unwise and improper to further curtail their milling by an amount over 6¾ per cent. which would be their loss in a damp year.

I agree with everything else there except when I come to Section 9. Section 9 specifies the method by which moisture in wheat shall be determined. Here I must disagree most definitely. I agree with the Minister that the various electronic meters on the market do not always give a uniform result, and I feel that to use one of those properly over a wet harvest, for any mill to undertake this, it is necessary that there should be a parent body which could test representative samples sent up against the results obtained by the machine in use at the point of intake, such as in the case of Guinness agents buying malting barley. Twice a week samples are put in sealed tins and if tests discover any slight error in the electronic devices it can be rectified by simple subtraction or addition. The results which have been found in the meantime on those electronic devices can be subject to the subtraction or the addition.

The Department of Agriculture have no such system with wheat. They have simply insisted that the thing be dried at 130 degrees Fahrenheit for one hour in an oven, having been weighed before and after, and that the loss in weight equals the loss in moisture and from that it is reduced to a percentage moisture loss. I think that is, to put it crudely, a most puerile procedure, because first of all, I know that by different methods of grinding it is possible in the grinding itself, by setting up heat, to remove 1 per cent. moisture. I also know that the ovens in general use in the country do not give exact temperatures of 130 degrees right through one hour of drying, that there are ovens which have a variation of 7 degrees, and that the best type of oven one can buy has a slight variation of course, which nobody will object to, of approximately, 1½ degrees above and below. Therefore, I do not think this is a perfect system.

Also in the case of very wet wheat, the farmer when a bad season arrives with wheat of 30 per cent. moisture is in bad luck and we must make a genuine effort to do our best for him. I defy anybody to grind that wheat. It is literally impossible to grind it. What you have to do is to squeeze it. If you put it into a coffee grinder or any type of grinder you will find you are really squeezing the wheat and it is possible to see blobs of moisture emerge from it.

Whether or not this is in favour of the farmer or to his disadvantage depends absolutely on wheather or not one blob goes into the ten grams of wheat you weigh. That is literally true, and with the best heart in the world there is not a buyer who will agree that in every individual case he has done a good job. It is literally impossible to do it. No grinder can do it. You can put wheat into the grinder and by setting up heat remove 1 per cent. Moisture which would be in favour of the farmer but that is an error. Secondly, when you get very wet wheat it is a fact that when you squeeze it, and take out 30 or 40 grams and then extract and weigh ten grams of it, there may be more moisture in the ten grams than in the bulk lot you grind, and the farmer has to suffer. If there is less moisture the drier suffers. I am not looking for a perfect system, but I think that the approach to this thing is so crude and puerile that Section 9 probably should be deleted from the Act for a period of six to 12 months during which time the matter should be investigated.

I do not know what would be the proper approach to this problem of moisture content. I do know that the Brewers' Institute, which is an institution embracing all Europe, has been sitting on this problem for four years. Whether or not they have produced recommendations or a result I do not know, but I think that it would be necessary to set out and specify some type of technique so that you would get a uniform or as near to uniform a sample as possible.

There are mills in this country, it is no secret to say, which are making a very genuine approach to the problem. When they get this wet wheat, they have a system whereby they dry a sample of wheat, say 50 grams, down to a moisture content at which they can fairly grind it, and having done this and made a first subtraction in weight for loss in grinding, then they make a second extraction from ten grams of the material. This is an approach that may or may not hold water when it is examined by the analytical chemist or the Department of Agriculture, but it is some approach, and better than putting the wheat into a coffee grinder at 30 per cent. moisture and squeezing it and expecting proper results afterwards. Thirty-six samples or more are generally placed in an over at a time. These samples must be weighed and I defy any operative—girls are mostly put on the job—to weigh them within three-quarters of an hour. While this is going on moisture is building up in the samples that have been removed from the over if they are placed in and ordinary atmosphere. Funnily enough, if you just have a look at it, this will be in favour of the farmer, yet these inaccuracies in tests are not a proper approach to the problem. These inaccuracies just cannot be allowed to stand part of the Bill.

I think that the approach that could be made would be to delete Section 9 and to refer this to a body such as the Institute of Industrial Research and Standards and let them set up the proper technique. That would be the best approach that we could make to this whole question of moisture content testing. We should let them also specify certain instruments for the purpose such as particular ovens and grinders which in their opinion are the proper articles to do the job. The system, by which a buyer can by law take samples into his kitchen and get the oven up to 130 degrees Farnheit and leave the samples in it for an hour, is not the best way or a satisfactory way of dealing with this matter. The oven in a farmer's kitchen is not the best way to carry out the test for moisture content. It has as we all know been found that two trays of samples put into an oven will not give the same results because the bottom of the oven is found to be much hotter than the top. We must go into this problem of moisture content to a much deeper degree than is being done under this Bill.

Let us suppose I am a buyer of wheat and a farmer sends me three loads of one parcel from a field and I take one sample only from each load; that would be in law according to this Bill a representative sample. One sample per load is not enough. I suggest that the best possible means of taking samples would be to take a sample from one in every five bags. That would give a representative sample from the whole consignment. Of course there is the danger in that that, if bags are left standing for three or four days, it might be that in certain conditions the wheat along the sides of the bags would be drier than that in the middle. On the other hand if there was dew or rain, it would be found that the wheat in the sides of the bags would be wetter than in the middle, but yet I think the best approach in getting a representative sample would be to take samples from one in every five bags. Therefore, I would ask the Minister to get his advisers to look into Section 9 again and, as well as looking into it, if possible, they should discuss the matter with the farmers' associations, the buyers' associations or the principal buyers. In that way, it might be possible to get something better than these crude provisions which provide for samples being tested at 130 degrees Farnheit. He should have some specified ovens, some specified technique and some defined type of grinder. Under the present conditions, a farmer can go from one place to another and get from 2 to 3 per cent. variation in his samples.

Deputy Walsh has raised the question of bushelling. I know of one case where a weights and measures sergeant who was an expert at his job told me of a farmer who got different figures in various places to which he went. In that particular case, the variation was as high as 1½ lb. in bushel weight. That is perfectly true. It is quite possible that that could happen because, when wheat is spilled out, there is aeration or the grain becomes polished and a lot of the light grain is lost, with the result that there is variation from place to place. I think that by a better method of testing, a better technique and specified instruments, it should be possible to get as near exactitude as is possible.

With regard to the suggestion of having farmers' representatives at the mill, I think that is an excellent idea, but I wonder if it will ever work. I think there are about 350 intake points in the country. Deputy Walsh has suggested the payment of 3d. per barrel to provide the money. Some years ago, the Beet Growers' Association decided to try and raise revenue from a similar charge of 1d. a barrel to pay for a small office, but that scheme was a complete failure. I did at that time talk to some of the farmers about that, but there was no acceptance of it. I would suggest that, before there can be any decision by the Government in that regard, the opinion of the farmers in the whole country should be obtained. If we were to put 3d. a barrel on, then it should be done only if the majority were in favour of it. The first thing the Minister would have to get would be a direction from the majority of the farmers concerned through somebody like the National Farmers' Association or the Beet Growers' Association.

Not necessarily.

I do not believe that the decision lies with us, but with the farmers themselves, and I would not like to see this 3d. a barrel taken from them, unless they give us a direction to do it. I am glad these Emergency Powers Orders are being put into one Bill, and I hope it will become an Act, but I would ask the Minister to reconsider Section 9.

I am much obliged to Deputies Walsh and Donegan for their intervention. I shall try to deal as far as I can on this stage with the particular issues that have been raised. Both Deputy Walsh and Deputy Donegan spoke about the problem of uniformity of tests.

I think I heard Deputy Donegan say at one stage that the procedure envisaged in this Bill is very far from being perfect. Of course, that is true but in matters of this kind I suggest to the House that you can purchase perfection at too high a price. What you want to ensure is that substantial justice is done to the producer and that if there is a shading from perfect justice it should be in favour of the producer rather than the miller. I think that is sound. I think that where Deputy Donegan, on reflection, ultimately discerned the possibility of error, he saw that these errors were in favour of the farmer.

I know that Deputy Walsh, who has had experience, and Deputy Donegan, who some day will have experience, sympathise with the Minister for Agriculture in the realisation that his job is to get for the farmer anything he can get for him. My primary job is to see that the balance is titled in the right direction and I think the present scheme broadly provides that. If freely admit that it does not guarantee perfection and absolute certainty in every case. I think that if we try to get perfection we may find ourselves paying too high a price for it. As long as substantial justice is done all round and that any defect will be in favour of the producer I think we have something closely approximating the ideal situation.

I would like to tell Deputy Walsh what the position is in regard to the proposition to establish a farmers' representative at each point of intake. That proposition was put to me and I discussed it with the deputations from the Best Growers' Association and from the National Farmers' Association. I said to them that they were coming to me with this proposal after experiencing one of the most difficult harvests for many years—the harvest of 1954-55—and I told them that it was natural that after the extraordinary experiences they had had of getting the wheat taken in that they should demur about the moisture content.

The plain fact is that 90 per cent. of that particular anomaly arose because, by the direction of the Government, I, as Minister for Agriculture, compelled the millers to take in and grade as suitable, wheat which, if it had been properly tested, would have been rejected. You had wheat taken in as millable which had 30, 31 and 32 per cent. moisture content. If the millers had stood on the letter of the law they would have graded that wheat as unmillable and would have rejected it but they collaborated with me, as Minister, in taking in anything that could be salvaged as millable wheat.

In that year you did get the most anomalous situations arising but where a man appears to have been unjustly debited with 1 or 2 per cent. of moisture which he did not believe his wheat had in it the real fact is that his wheat was dealt with in the category of millable wheat when within the letter of the law it could have been rejected on the grounds of unsuitability and could have been cast down into the 50/- category of unmillable wheat to be crushed for animal food.

I told the deputations that if, on mature reflection, they felt that the reasonable majority of grain growers wanted this representation and wanted at every point of intake, the same facilities as the beet growers had at their four points of intake, I was prepared to go to the Government and ask authority to come to Dáil Éireann for enabling legislation. I cannot do that in the same way as it is done for the best growers because theirs is done through the contract. I would have to get legislative authority to levey the wheat and pay the inspectors. I think they are wrong. I think it would cost them £30,000 if they are going to employ 300 men. Actually I think they would have to pay them much more.

For one week?

It would mean ten weeks' work for these men who would have to be employed. I think they would be wasting the money because I understand that this year the National Farmers' Association issued a printed form in which they called on people to enter the nature of their complaints, if they felt that the moisture content of their wheat was not properly estimated. I do not think that they got back one-tenth of 1 per cent. of these forms and I do not think that the Department got one single complaint. If we laid out £300,000 on employing men for ten weeks in each of these 300 centres and if no complaints came in it would be waste of money.

This was an abnormal year.

I can sympathise with men who experienced what grain growers did experience in 1954 but then I say that in 1955 there was not a single complaint.

1955 was an abnormally dry year.

Would we not be very foolish if we laid out £300,000 against the possibility of complaints and if not one complaint came in? I think the people who are primarily concerned in this matter are the people who grow the wheat. If they come to me and in substantial majority say that, having seen the good year and the bad year, they still want me to give them £250,000 a year in having this check taken, I propose to come to Dáil Éireann with proposals along that line. But if they ask my advice, as having surveyed the scene from the centre in the good year and in the bad year, I still advise them that they are not going to get value for their money. If you look back over the previous ten or 15 years, which were average years, the volume of complaints about moisture content was very small.

The situation is that these 300 wheat dealers depend for their living on persuading farmers to come and deal with them. They are living on the percentage they get on the volume of wheat they handle. Surely it must be a natural instinct in their dealings with farmers to treat the farmer as generously as they can and none of them wants to get the reputation of a greedy grasping man because he knows that the farmer will then pass his door and go to another agent. Is it not more likely that if there is any way in which he can lean in favour of the farmer he will do that? If you clamp down too rigorously with the literal interpretation of all these regulations, I want to warn the growers, watching this from the centre and standing impartially between the various interests concerned, they are going to lose more out of a rigid and precise enforcement of these regulations than by whatever latitude there may be otherwise.

However, they have of course the right to stick to their guns, but I am Minister for Agriculture and my business is to root for the farmer and to get as much as I can out of any legislation enacted by this House for the farmer. There is the legislation and the more precisely it is enacted and the tighter we draw it and the more Draconian the manner in which we enforce it, the more it will react on the farmers. I think on balance that taking the bad year with the good year and the average year, the natural desire of the wheat dealer is to draw custom into his own premises.

Deputy Donegan referred to Section 9, and it was in that context, I think, he said he did not consider this a perfect system at all. I agree, but no human system is perfect and the only reason that we have adopted that system is because it is internationally accepted procedure. What ordinarily happens is that one of these electronic devices is employed to assess the amount of moisture, and then substantial agreement is reached between the purchaser and the vendor; but if there is a serious difference and the miller or the grain purchaser wants to defend his moisture deduction against the farmer that is the only test on which he can go to court. This electronic device is merely a rough-and-ready method designed to secure a handy basis of agreement and to avoid undue delay. It is very easy to think of foolproof devices for making tests of this kind; and suppose we insist on an even more foolproof device to check up on moisture, as Deputy Donegan seems to suggest, can you imagine how we could have brought in the harvest of 1954? Could you imagine how it would have been got in at all if it was required by law that every parcel of wheat taken in would have to go through this elaborate procedure?

This method is not perfect—I concede that. I do not believe there is such a thing as a perfect method. I think this method works, by and large, reasonably well. I do not think there is in any average year any serious abuse but I have given the grain growers an undertaking that if they come back again with this request I shall seek the authority of the Government to bring suitable legislation before the House.

Section 3 of the First Schedule, to which I think Deputy Walsh referred, is designed to prevent barter operations and, I think, has something to do with administrative machinery for avoiding any departure from the fixed minimum price. I agree with Deputy Walsh that many of these provisos which turn up in schedules of regulations of this character often seem grotesque, but I think his experience will have taught him what I have learned by my own bitter experience that you cannot make regulations on the assumption that everyone is going to play ball. You will always find some "sore thumb" coming along to see if he can push his foot through some little chink. You have to close that chink just to keep that sort of person out. If you are dealing with 100 per cent. reasonable men these sorts of provisions might not be necessary at all. That is the only defence I can make for Section 3 of the Schedule.

I think Deputy Walsh asked what is the exact significance of Section 4. I think it reproduces an Order which he himself made—I am making no point of it—in 1953, and it is purely related to this 280-300 ratio and I rather imagine, if the Minister for Industry and Commerce alters his basis of calculation from a wheat basis to a flour and offals basis, Section 4 will fall from the Bill. It is purely consequential on this other method and is an entirely technical device for making some obstruse calculation.

I fully appreciate Deputy Walsh's legitimate observations on the section which permits the Minister for the time being to alter milling quotas. I consider that his thrusts on that occasion were moderate and restrained in all the circumstances, but I would like to reasure him that so far as I know this is purely designed for administrative convenience to avoid shifting small quantities of wheat from one mill to another. The concern of the Minister is to see that all the wheat is milled, and it is sometimes more convenient to allow one mill to take 102 per cent. of its quota and another 98 per cent. because the wheat appears to be in these particular areas. The Committee Stage will be taken at a later date.

Just one point—the Minister did not make any reference to farmers drying their own wheat.

That is another question—I forgot about it; my apologies. That is another frequently canvased question and I do not see how we can deal with it. What many farmers' representatives have asked is if you take the basic price for wheat at 70/- for such-and-such a moisture content, it you present wheat of 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 per cent. less moisture, there should be a corresponding increase as there is a corresponding decrease if you have excess moisture content. Deputies will remember that in the bad year we changed the moisture content in order to lighten the burden for the man who had bad wheat, but I think the real reason why the moisture content principle was introduced was because it was designed to put a very trifling impost on at the lower stage, but where in a normal year a farmer dumped in wheat with 28 per cent. or more moisture it was felt he was so utterly careless that he ought to be penalised so that the farmer who did his best to bring wheat in the best possible condition could get the highest possible price the system allowed.

I think the Grain Growers' Association themselves said that they had no interest in a man who in a normal year dumped his wheat in with a moisture content in excess of 28 per cent. Upon my word, but for the necessity of controlling that type of person, I would be inclined to drop the whole moisture content business altogether. There, again, you are faced with the dilemma that, while that would operate favourably and effectively with 85 per cent. of the farmers, you would get about 15 per cent. who would water the grain; and, unhappily, you would have to provide against them. It would be much better if you had no moisture content at all. But what can you do with the kind of fellow who would almost water it artificially if you had not got that protection against him?

Is the Minister aware that after drying the wheat it has to be damped again before it is turned into flour?

I am not sure if that is altogether correct. You have to have a certain moisture content to mill it. I think it is 15 per cent. You cannot mill it satisfactorily if the moisture content is below that. It is just as difficult to mill if it is below that as it is if it is above and, therefore, you have to bring it to the correct moisture content by an admixture of excessively dry wheat with wheat of a high moisture content.

The farmer is cut for moisture content but, when the wheat is about to be manufactured into flour, water is turned on it. That is my experience. That is why I could never understand why the farmer should be cut considering the millers turn water on it after drying.

Wheat must be 15 per cent. moisture content for satisfactory milling. The farmer is entitled to present wheat up to 23 per cent. If he has 23 per cent., or less, he gets paid the full price. It is only if the moisture is in excess of 23 per cent. that there is any reduction. We all know the difficulty of correctly ascertaining excess moisture content and, if we start trying to pay the farmer more for every point below 23 per cent., the difficulty is that administration will become almost impossible; and, of course, fundamentally this story began by a price being guaranteed for millable wheat. Now, gradually as the practice of wheat-growing increased and the purchase of wheat for domestic milling grew up, millable quality had to be defined and, slowly, the Government, one day or another, relaxed the standard from 21 per cent. to 22 per cent. and, finally, to 23 per cent.; and the farmer continued to get his wheat treated as millable wheat when it was 23 per cent., whereas in the early stages it might have been looked upon askance and he would have been required to produce it at 21 per cent.

Now, the fixed price is payable in respect of any wheat with a moisture content up to 23 per cent. Not unnaturally, the farmers say: "What will you give us if we produce wheat at 15 per cent.? Will you undertake to give us 8/-, 9/- or 10/- a barrel more?" The answer is: "No, I cannot." And there are two reasons for it. One is that, in order to handle the crop, we had to, and my predecessor had to, greatly facilitate the creation of drying facilities at the most convenient centres for dealing with the crop en bloc. The second reason is that in the last analysis when wheat comes to be milled it is the miller who has to mill it. Now, if a farmer tries to dry his own wheat, burns it and brings it to the mill and the miller says: “I cannot make flour out of that wheat. I admit it is 16 per cent. moisture content, but I cannot make flour out of it.” What am I to do then?

The miller will lose nothing.

What am I to do then? How are we to get over that? Are we to say to the miller: "You must mill as much as you can"? Now that is the difficulty. At the present time any farmer who has wheat with a moisture content of 24 per cent., 25 per cent. or 26 per cent, can dry that wheat himself down to 23 per cent. and he will get the full price, without any reduction for moisture, for it. Technically, I suppose, he might not be authorised to do so, but he need not tell the miller he has done any drying operations at all. He just presents it at 23 per cent. moisture content and gets the fixed price for it.

As at present advised, I do not see any means whereby you can evolve a system of paying the individual farmer a rising scale for reducing moisture content below 23 per cent. If anybody has an administrative scheme which he thinks could be worked on a rational basis I shall be glad to hear of it. I know of none, and I have considered this matter well. As at present advised, I cannot see my way to meet that request. I think in the long run it is probably better that we should have at convenient centres throughout the country adequate drying and storage facilities, leaving to the individual farmer, who wants to store his own grain, the certainty that if he brings it in at 23 per cent. or under, he will get the fixed price; and, if he chooses to bring it in wet, he will have to meet the reduction appropriate to the degree of moisture his grain contains.

Question put and agreed to.
Ordered: That the Committee Stage be taken this day fortnight.
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