Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Dec 1955

Vol. 153 No. 10

Greyhound Industry Bill, 1955—Second Stage.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Dillon)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. During the middle and later 1940's greyhound racing in Britain attracted increased support from patrons with a good share of ready money available, and the boom was reflected throughout the greyhound industry in this country from which the dogs were largely obtained; greyhound racing here also attracted increased patronage at that time. Defects in the supervision of the industry were in such circumstances liable to be shown up more clearly, with rather serious resulting abuses appearing, and it became fairly generally accepted that a greater degree of effective control, than that existing under the Irish Coursing Club as already constituted, would be desirable.

By 1950 the Irish Coursing Club itself was putting forward a case for legislation to establish a control board for the greyhound industry on the lines of the Racing Board, which had been established for horse-racing under the Racing Board and Race Courses Act, 1945, and was proving a success. Aspects of the administration of the Irish Coursing Club itself were also being questioned by interests associated with the industry. From the general economic viewpoint the greyhound industry had, as compared with pre-war, assumed considerably more importance—for instance, during the four-year period 1946-49 total exports of greyhounds averaged 8,500 per annum valued at over £800,000, as compared with an average of 2,500 per annum valued at £55,000 during the four-year period 1936-39.

As a preliminary to deciding what action might appropriately be taken, the first step that suggested itself was to obtain a detailed survey of the whole industry and the Advisory Committee on the Greyhound Industry was therefore appointed with terms of reference:

"To ascertain and report on the position respecting coursing, greyhound racing, greyhound breeding and other related activities and such measures, if any, as are considered desirable in the national interest for the better control and development thereof."

The advisory committee presented a forthright and very useful report, for which they deserve due gratitude, and the present legislation is largely based on their recommendations. Since the advisory committee's report was published comments on their analysis of the situation and their suggested improvements have not been wanting and as might be expected while the various branches of the industry are naturally anxious for its general welfare each branch has its own special interests and problems particularly in mind, so that divergence of opinion on some matters is understandable.

The development of commercial greyhound racing in Britain and this country since the later 1920's has of course given rise to the major problems in the industry. The advisory committee's report (paragraph 51) says in relation to greyhound racing:—

"On the introduction of the sport to Ireland, the question of control became an immediate problem. The Irish Coursing Club supervised coursing but there was some difference of opinion amongst members as to whether the club should undertake the supervision of the new sport. A special meeting of the club was convened to consider the matter, and with few dissentients it was formally decided to undertake supervision of greyhound racing and to formulate appropriate rules in this connection. The wisdom of this decision has been questioned in many quarters. From the national viewpoint, however, it was desirable that greyhound racing, as well as coursing, should be supervised by some central authority and provided the subsequent control exercised by the Irish Coursing Club were entirely effective, the decision might have been justified. This additional task, however, placed too great a strain on the Irish Coursing Club which as a result found itself unable to cope effectively with the abuses which gradually became prevalent in the sport."

As regards the constitution of the Irish Coursing Club—which, at the time the advisory committee reported, comprised a maximum membership of 194 representative members (that is one member representing each coursing club and track) and 100 elected members (that is members elected at general meetings of the club by a two thirds vote from amongst consistent supporters of greyhound coursing who are registered greyhound owners)—the advisory committee pointed out that the representative members, especially of coursing clubs, did not exert the influence they should in the affairs of the club. Paragraph 99 of the advisory committee's report says:—

"Conflicting view have been expressed by witnesses as to the reasons for this apathy amongst coursing clubs. It has been asserted on behalf of the clubs that nonattendance at Irish Coursing Club meetings was because their representatives felt they exerted no influence whatever; and that matters coming before the general body were in fact already decided by the standing committee and with the support of the ‘elected' element would be assured of approval, notwithstanding any views to the contrary held by ordinary representatives. Other witnesses maintained that the apathy was due to the fact that the representatives of coursing clubs often had little experience and that in any event they were mainly concerned in promoting the interests of their own particular clubs. It is true that many clubs are formed mainly for the purpose of organising a coursing meeting and apart from this have little interest. It is equally true, however, that unless coursing clubs themselves are prepared to participate more actively in Irish Coursing Club affairs, any scheme of reorganisation will fail. It is, accordingly, our hope that coursing clubs will in future take a more lively interest in the affairs of the industry as a whole and that a reorganised Irish Coursing Club will give them all possible encouragement in this direction."

The major recommendations of the advisory committee dealt with the foregoing two matters, namely, the provision of adequate supervision of greyhound racing and allied activities, so as to eliminate abuses, and the internal organisation of the Irish Coursing Club.

As regards greyhound racing, the advisory committee recommended that the control of greyhound racing and of all matters directly connected therewith should be assigned to a statutory control board. As regards the reorganisation of the Irish Coursing Club —which it was suggested should in future deal with the routine work associated with the greyhound industry, particularly breeding and coursing, subject to such overriding authority as might be exercised by the control board—the advisory committee recommended that the club's membership should comprise one representative member from each coursing club and racing track, with ten co-opted members to replace the existing maximum of 100 elected members; and that the standing committee of the club (a proportion of which has been appointed yearly in rotation from amongst both representative members and elected members of the club at the annual general meetings) should be replaced by an executive committee of representative members only, appointed on a proportionate basis by provincial committees—the provincial committees comprising the representative members in each province.

One-third of the members so appointed from each province to the executive committee would retire yearly in rotation. It was also recommended that the members of the executive committee elected from each province should include club representatives in at least the proportion which the number of coursing clubs in the province would bear to the combined number of coursing clubs and racing tracks in the province.

The Bill, in Part II, provides for the establishment of the Greyhound Industry Board consisting of seven members (the maximum recommended by the advisory committee) to be appointed by the Minister for Agriculture after consultation with the Minister for Finance. Four of the six ordinary members, i.e., excluding the chairman, would be appointed by the Minister on the first occasion from amongst the members of the standing committee, and thereafter from amongst the members of the executive committee of the Irish Coursing Club. If the representatives of the standing committee or the executive committee on the board should fail to secure appointment as members of the executive committee under the revised Irish Coursing Club constitution they would thereby cease to be members of the board and would be replaced by eligible members.

Although the advisory committee did not favour direct representation of particular interests on the board, the case made subsequently by the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club for representation on the same lines as applies to the Racing Board for horses, where six of the 11 members appointed must be members of the Turf Club or the National Hunt Steeplechase Committee, did not appear unreasonable. Co-ordination between the board and the Irish Coursing Club will be necessary in a large degree if the board is to function smoothly and efficiently; and, of course, the reorganisation of the Irish Coursing Club itself is designed to ensure that its executive committee will have the full confidence of the industry at all times.

Part III of the Bill provides for the licensing of greyhound racetracks by the board and for regulations by the board to cover all matters in relation to tracks and greyhound racing. Provision is also made for rules by the Irish Coursing Club in relation to the functioning of tracks and greyhound racing; here again the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club appeared to make a reasonable case, subsequent to the advisory committee's report, for retaining purely disciplinary functions in regard to racing as well as breeding and coursing because of the close inter-connection of these in many respects, as well as the further important point made by the club that its racing rules apply to the Six County licensed tracks affiliated to it and that the club's position in that respect should not therefore be prejudiced by its ceasing to be recognised as a rule-making authority for racing in the Twenty-Six Counties. Under the Bill, rules made by the club must, in any event, be with the consent of the board.

Part IV of the Bill concerns the reconstitution and future status of the Irish Coursing Club. Subject to the general authority of the board, the reconstituted Irish Coursing Club will be statutorily recognised as the controlling body for greyhound breeding and coursing matters, and the club's revised constitution is attached as a Schedule to the Bill. Under the new constitution each coursing club and racetrack will, as previously, appoint one representative from the club and track to be a member of the Irish Coursing Club, but the previous maximum of 100 elected members, i.e., elected at general meetings of the Irish Coursing Club will be reduced to 50 as soon as the number of existing elected members falls with the passage of time to that level. These elected members will in future be known as co-opted members.

The advisory committee recommended a maximum of only ten co-opted members, but, in connection with revision of the club's constitution, the Irish Coursing Club representatives very strongly desired that the number should not be reduced below 50. These elected or co-opted members are drawn from prominent supporters of coursing whose advice and experience are considered to be of special value to the club. There have, as the advisory committee mentioned, been criticisms that the elected members exercised undue influence in the past as compared with the representative members appointed by the individual clubs and tracks, but there should be no danger of this under the revised constitution.

The co-opted members will only have a vote at general meetings of the club, where they are greatly outnumbered by the representative members and the co-opted members will not be eligible either to become themselves, or to vote at provincial committee meetings for election of, the members of the executive committee of the club.

The principles of the revised constitution are otherwise generally in accord with the advisory committee's recommendations. In particular, only representative members of clubs or tracks may be appointed to the executive committee and the number appointed from each province must include coursing club representatives to at least the proportion which the number of coursing clubs in the province bears to the total number of clubs and tracks in the province; the appointments will be made by the provincial committees in proportion to the total number of clubs and tracks in the respective provinces, and only representative members may vote at meetings of the provincial committees.

Part V of the Bill, dealing with course-betting permits for bookmakers and levies in respect of course bets, follows the lines of Part III of the 1954 Act concerning horse-racing except that its operation is subject to ministerial Order from time to time, as the possibility is allowed for that, instead of a levy on course bets, there may be substituted a special admission charge on bookmakers payable to the board under sub-sections (4) and (7) of Section 48 in Part VI of the Bill. Such special admission charges would of course be in addition to the admission charges payable to the tracks or clubs holding the meetings, and under sub-section (1) of Section 48 the board would have power to control the over-all charges. Under the 1945 Act concerning horse-racing, the maximum admission charge to bookmakers is fixed at five times the charge to members of the public and it has been represented on behalf of greyhound bookmakers, especially the smaller ones, that the same limitation should apply in their case. The present charges to greyhound bookmakers are substantially in excess of five times the charges to spectators and the greyhound tracks appear to think that the same limitation as for horse-racing would involve them in losses. It has been deemed the best course to leave it to the board to go into the matter fully and decide what is fairest to all concerned from time to time. It may be said in particular that the board will be expected to protect at all times the legitimate interests of the small bookmakers who be subject to a betting levy or to a special admission charge in lieu thereof.

There will also be the operation of totalisators by the Greyhound Industry Board, as provided for in Section 20 and Section 40 of the Bill. The advisory committee suggested the installation of totalisators by the board, first at the Dublin tracks and later at the Cork and Limerick tracks; this appears a very reasonable proposition. The board should derive a fair part of its income in the course of time from the totalisators, but for some period at least a course-betting levy is considered unavoidable. The advisory committee suggested a levy of 2½ per cent. in the first year and 1¼ per cent. thereafter. The board's regulations under Section 32 prescribing the amount of the levy will require the consent of the Minister, and it may be said at this stage that, having regard to the interests of the small bookmakers, the intention is that in the first year the levy should also not be more than 1¼ per cent.

Mr. O'Malley

It will not work.

Mr. Dillon

Regard must be had to that matter. My concern has been effectively to protect the legitimate interests of the small bookmaker; but, if the problem to which Deputy O'Malley refers of making a levy of 1¼ per cent. workable, should prove insurmountable, it may be that the small bookmakers would themselves prefer to see a levy fixed at 2½ per cent. for the purpose of making its collection more practicable from the racing public. But, as I say, if the general feeling should transpire to be that the interests of the small bookmakers require the lower rate of levy, I would be prepared to say that we certainly ought to try it out at that level if that would help the small bookmaker and his employees to keep going.

Mr. O'Malley

Or no levy at all.

Mr. Dillon

I carefully examined that and I am prepared to admit to the Dáil that the apparent delay in producing this Bill is in part due to what was, perhaps, an excessive solicitude on my part to see if I could devise ways and means of making the Bill work without a levy on the small bookmakers; and it was only when it was brought home to me irresistibly that if we were to try and help the industry, which, after all, in the long run is in the interests of the bookmakers as well as everybody else, that we had to have a bookmakers' levy that I persuaded myself of the propriety of bringing the proposals which I now submit to the House.

Mr. Briscoe

Would the Minister be prepared to consider a fresh suggestion?

Mr. Dillon

To what effect?

Mr. Briscoe

In relation to the levy.

Mr. Dillon

I am always open to suggestion, but I examined this matter in all its aspects. I have discussed it with the small bookmakers twice and they well know that I have examined every conceivable device I could examine to try to help them but unless we make up our minds that we are not going to operate the Racing Board device for helping the industry at all, as at present advised, I do not see how we can do without that levy on the bookmakers.

Part VI of the Bill deals with a number of miscellaneous matters arising mostly out of recommendations made by the advisory committee. These include, especially, power for the board to ensure that public sales and exports of greyhounds, in relation to which abuses have been known to occur, are adequately supervised, and power for the board and the club to investigate cases of suspected wrongdoing and take any suitable disciplinary action called for as a result. It may be mentioned that only the board is concerned in the case of disqualification orders under Section 45 of the Bill because action in that connection by the club— which would be concerned with affiliated clubs and tracks in the Six Counties also—would be taken in accordance with disciplinary rules made under the club's constitution.

It is hoped that the Bill will give adequate powers to the greyhound industry itself, suitably reorganised, for its development on sound lines commanding the confidence of the public here and of the export market for Irish greyhounds, without which the industry cannot hope to prosper.

Before I conclude, I should like to emphasise that the purpose of this Bill is to give the industry itself the means of salvaging itself. I do not think the Minister for Agriculture, or any other Minister, can undertake responsibility for the greyhound industry, racetracks and coursing any more than a Minister could take responsibility for the administration of horse-racing. But what I think we have a duty to do in existing circumstances is to give the industry the power effectively to regulate itself so that, if it wants to put itself on a sound basis, it shall have the power and resources wherewith to do so.

Lastly, I know that it will be the wish of the House that I should say at this stage that it is the duty of any such board, representing an industry, to have regard to the legitimate interests of all parties who depend upon that industry for their living, no matter how small and humble the individuals may be. I have had that constantly present to my mind since the drafting of this Bill was undertaken and I think the House will share with me the desire to place it on record now that we are not prepared to accept the principle in regard to this business that one cannot have omelettes without breaking eggs. We want this board to approach their task with due regard to the legitimate interests of the humblest egg which depends for its existence on the future prosperity of the greyhound coursing and racing industry and the greyhound breeding industry in this country.

Mr. Walsh

I welcome this Bill. My only regret is that it has taken so long to introduce it. I have my doubts, however, as to where the Bill was drafted or where the heads of the Bill came from. Looking at the Bill, it would appear to me that it was drafted in the headquarters of the Irish Coursing Club.

Mr. O'Leary

It would not be a bad place.

Mr. Walsh

The general position of the greyhound industry here is a very interesting one. Away back in 1915 or 1916 we were under the control of the National Coursing Board in England. At that time one gentleman, in particular, and some of his friends came together and set up a control board here in Ireland. It was successful in carrying out coursing meetings all over the country. With the advent of greyhound racing new problems arose. There was more money in the sport and, because there was more money in it, more people jumped into it. The result was that we had many undesirables getting into what was one of the finest sports in the country. From 1927 onwards doubts were created in the minds of many people engaged in the greyhound industry whether as breeders, coursers or merely people who went to track-racing. In 1946 and 1947 there was a general outcry. The report sent in by the advisory committee set up by the present Minister for Agriculture in 1951 and received in 1952, would make one think before giving to the people who were responsible for the running of the greyhound industry in the country from 1916 to 1947 the supreme powers that are being given to them now.

Mr. A. Barry

They are reconstituted.

Mr. Walsh

There is no reconstitution. It is the present standing committee which will constitute the new board. It is before the reconstitution takes place that this board is being appointed. What does the report reveal? It reveals defects in the constitution, etc., of the Irish Coursing Club. The summary of the report states:—

"The report shows that the chief defect in the present day organisation of the club lies in its unrepresentative character. The elected members in the main have ceased to be active participants in the industry. The influence of representatives on racing tracks both in the general body and on the standing committee has become disproportionate. The standing committee is composed almost exclusively of elected members. Changes in its personnel are rare and its actions have tended to become autocratic. Neither the administration nor the distribution of the club's funds has been wholly satisfactory."

These are the people that the Minister is now going to appoint to the new greyhound board. They have a majority on it, four out of seven. If they proved incompetent in keeping this sport clean from 1947 until 1952, is it not the duty of the Minister to see that they will not be responsible for the administration of the sport in the future? Unless this measure is amended the Minister, by the introduction of this Bill, is deliberately legalising the undesirable effects that we had in the sport during the years I have mentioned.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Deputy advert to the fact that over three years they would all retire and be replaced——

Mr. Walsh

I am speaking of the first board that will operate this legislation. Again summarising the report, it goes on to state:—

"The report establishes that wrongdoing in the different branches of the greyhound industry has in recent years become widespread. In breeding, substitution of puppies is a common occurrence. In coursing, dogs have been deliberately switched and doped and standards of stewarding, slipping and judging leave ample scope for improvement. These abuses in breeding and coursing are not, however, on a large scale. In greyhound racing, on the other hand, malpractices are more prevalent and more grave. Fraudulent betting coups have been frequently brought off by persons in possession of information which was not available to the public; the grading of competing dogs has been unsatisfactory in many instances; information given on race cards is often inadequate and unrepresentative of true form; private trials have taken place on licensed tracks about which the public was kept unaware; there has been substitution and doping of dogs; other abuses of a less serious nature are also known to occur. The report ascribes the prevalence of these malpractices primarily to the fact that the supervision exercised by the Irish Coursing Club has become almost entirely ineffective and asserts that the club, as at present constituted, cannot be regarded as competent to excercise effective control."

That report was signed by the chairman of the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club with a colleague of his. Are we to legalise this sport and to give these people the authority to continue doing these things? In effect that is what it means.

Mr. A. Barry

That is rubbish.

Mr. Walsh

We are putting four of these men back on this board, giving them a majority. If they have proved a failure for 25 years, what reason have we to think they will make a success of it now? They have allowed all these things to creep into the sport. During my term of office, I have had letters from people engaged in this industry all over the country, from every county—from greyhound-owners complaining about the prices that were offered on the tracks, from people who had offered dogs for sale, stating how they were swindled at many dog sales in the country. All these things went on under the blind eye of the Irish Coursing Club. This industry cannot succeed if we continue these things.

It may be suggested that this Bill is based on the Racing Board Act of 1945. But there is no comparison between the two sports. You have not the same people engaged in the two sports; you have not the same difficulties obtaining in horse-racing as in greyhound racing. There are not as many dangers to contend with. Consequently the job is much easier for the people engaged in horse-racing than for those engaged in greyhound racing. You need men of the highest integrity to administer greyhound racing in the country and I doubt, as a result of our experience over the past 25 years, if we can get them from the Irish Coursing Club.

Mr. Dillon

That is going very far.

Mr. Walsh

Is it not there? An independent body of men sitting in judgment on these people who were responsible, gave an honest report to the Minister for Agriculture and I am quoting from that report. Yet we in this House are asked now to give legal effect to what has been going on. We had in the past the 100 elected representatives. Who are these people? If they were so genuinely concerned with the sport and were of such great advantage to it in the past, why were they not elected representatives of their coursing clubs? They had to be members of the coursing clubs. Why were these men not elected as representatives to represent their clubs in the Irish Coursing Club? Why was it necessary to introduce this undemocratic system—that because he was a friend of somebody else he should be put into the club, brought in by the back door when he was not able to get in by the front door, as happened in many of the cases? There was a reason for it, of course, the reason being that he would support those in authority and it was another way of maintaining the votes to keep these gentlemen in control. That is why the elected members were brought in. It is time to get rid of them.

If we want to have a democratic organisation or association running this sport, there is a simple way of doing it: let each coursing club elect its representative. You have the provincial members who represent their province, for instance, and go on to the executive council, or on to the standing committee—whatever name you like to give it. Then I am satisfied to give the Irish Coursing Club representation on the board, representation of their own choosing, but not a majority.

Mr. Dillon

They will not have a majority on this.

Mr. Walsh

They have a majority on that.

Mr. Dillon

They will not under the new arrangement.

Mr. Walsh

They will have a majority on that new board. They have four out of seven and it could be quite possible that, in the appointment of a chairman, they could have five out of seven.

There should be other ways of dealing with that. There are enough people who are interested in the sport, honestly interested in it, who are not members of the Irish Coursing Club, who could give good service on the board and could be appointed by the Minister.

I would certainly give representation to the Irish Coursing Club. There is no doubt that they are entitled to representation, but it should be the elected representatives of the clubs who would get that representation, and not men who have been elected by the back door.

In his statement introducing the Bill, the Minister said that only elected members or representatives of the clubs can be appointed on it. I am very glad to hear that, but now some of these people who are now elected members of the Irish Coursing Club will have themselves selected as representatives of their clubs, in order to qualify as members of the board. That is where the great danger to the sport lies.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy will agree that if they do get themselves elected by clubs, neither he nor I has any right to say them nay, if they are elected.

Mr. Walsh

There are 24 members in every club and I hope and I believe that they will not put a wrong one on to represent them.

Mr. Dillon

That is right.

Mr. Walsh

I hope they will not. But remember, that is all right three years hence, but to-day it is not right because in this Bill it is members of the present Irish Coursing Club you are putting on. You are not waiting for the election of the provincial councils; you are not waiting for the election of a new executive council; you are not waiting for the appointment of the club or the election of a new club. You will still draw that membership from the 294 people who are there— roughly 294—170 representing the clubs, 100 elected—may be a little less now— and 20 or 21 from racing tracks. These are the people from whom you will be drawing and I do not know how, out of these, you will find your four members.

If the Minister told me that immediately after the passing of this Bill, before he made the appointments, they had to put their house in order by having their elections and appointing a new standing committee or executive committee and appointing from them, then, I would be satisfied.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Deputy not think there is some value in a gradual approach to reform of that kind?

Mr. Walsh

Yes——

Mr. Dillon

And spreading it over a term of years?

Mr. Walsh

——if it were not on a rotten foundation, it would be good, but we happen to be on a rotten foundation, as that report indicates and proves.

There is no difficulty about it. It could be done before this Bill goes through the House. If there is a will, there is a way to do it, but there was no will to do it in the past. This Bill will not pass through this House for a couple of months yet. This is the height of the coursing season. There is no difficulty now in having clubs called together and appointing their representatives and executive committee, but there is no inclination on the part of some of the people who are at the top in the Irish Coursing Club to do these things.

I quote from a circular that was issued by the Irish Coursing Club after a discussion with me:—

"Although we agreed on scarcely any point raised throughout the conference, we left with a vague understanding that we would examine our constitution and rules in the light of the advisory committee's report and let the Minister know what changes, if any, we propose to make."

That was the attitude adopted when they were asked to put their house in order and that is the attitude the present Minister ran away from, and he gave them their way in allowing them to have a majority on this board.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy must at least concede that I brought a Bill before the House, and he did not.

Mr. Walsh

I did not have an opportunity of bringing a Bill before the House.

Mr. Dillon

You had three years.

Mr. A. Barry

Two years—1952.

Mr. Walsh

The Minister is wrong. The report was handed to me and had to be printed and circulated.

Mr. Dillon

You had two years.

Mr. Walsh

I had not two years. The report was not printed or circulated until late 1953.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy had it on the 18th January, 1952.

Mr. Walsh

It had to be printed afterwards.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy was able to read it in longhand.

Mr. Walsh

The Minister will recollect that we had a printers' strike at the time. That was the delay.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy is well able to read writing, without waiting for the printer.

Mr. Walsh

It is a good job for some of the people now interested in it that I was not bringing it in. It would not be a Bill of this sort.

There is another matter that I wanted to refer to, that is, the betting levies. How are these to be collected? Is the bookmaker to collect the levy? Will he be paid for it? For instance, in the case of small bets, what will happen? There is a very short period between races. There is not an automatic system of doing it. I suppose somebody will have to take the levy and write, and so on. Bookmakers have to pay out money and all that sort of thing. In the case of small bets, will the levies not be paid in twopences and threepences? It will be impossible for a bookmaker doing business in any sort of large way to keep track of all these things. I am speaking now of small bets of 2/-, 3/- or 4/-. It would be all right if it were in pounds. In these small bets, will it not seem ridiculous? In the end, the bookmaker may suffer the loss by paying the amounts. The Minister should have another go and see if he can devise some means to get rid of that levy, if possible.

The one point that I want to stress in this matter is that it is necessary, now that this board is being set up, that it should be a board that will command the support of all the people engaged in the industry. I was referring a few moments ago to the progress that had been made in greyhound breeding and in dog racing. Up to 1947 or 1948 it was becoming a valuable asset to the country and we were receiving a fair amount of money from it. As a matter of fact in 1946 we got over £1,000,000 from our greyhounds and in 1947 we got another £1,000,000. It was at that time that these flagrant things began to happen and that the demand was made to the Minister to hold an inquiry.

The demand to hold the inquiry was the result of all these things—the swindling and the doping of dogs. In 1950 the value of the dog-racing industry in the country had dropped to £500,000. I have been told that we could have built up a very substantial trade with the Americans at that time, if it was not for the fact that a number of dogs leaving this country had been found to be substituted. It was discovered that fighters had been sent out and when they arrived in America they were found to be useless. Naturally, the Americans did not come back here again to buy. That is the kind of control that was being exercised by the Irish Coursing Club at the time. We had dishonesty in the sport. That is the only way to describe it.

Mr. Dillon

That is what Deputy MacEntee calls it.

Mr. Walsh

The sport was not honest. It was distinctly dishonest and there was doping of dogs and dishonesty in the sale of dogs.

Mr. Dillon

If Deputy MacEntee says so it must be true.

Mr. Walsh

Does the Minister not know it to be true? If he did not know it to be true, why did he go to the bother of setting up a commission to inquire into these alleged malpractices? He knew it was true and he did a good job by setting up the commission. After doing that good job and after holding the inquiry he should have gone further and accepted the report of the commission and the recommendations made to him by these men. These men entered into that work and they were not prejudiced going into it. They went into it to give a fair, honest opinion and they submitted that fair, honest opinion to the Minister. If they were an independent body of men it might be suggested that they did not know what they were talking about but you had the chairman of the Irish Coursing Club as a member of the board.

The report was challenged by some of the officials of the Irish Coursing Club when they stated:—

"We said that we objected generally to a number of the recommendations made in the report; that it was the feeling of the Irish Coursing Club that some of the findings contained in the report were the views of certain pressure groups who were anxious to see the authority of the Irish Coursing Club whittled away and perhaps eventually replaced by some substitute organisation."

Mr. Dillon

Will the Deputy oblige me by telling me what he is quoting from?

Mr. Walsh

I am quoting from a report of one of the higher officials of the Irish Coursing Club of a meeting with the Minister for Agriculture at the time. That report was circulated to club members. They also went on to say, when dealing with the question of the chairman of the Irish Coursing Club being a member of the commission, that he might not be as well versed in the administration of the Irish Coursing Club as some of the other officials would be.

As far as I can see, the report is an honest one and one that could be accepted by the Minister. It would have been accepted by me as a genuine effort to clean up the sport and to put it on a sound basis. Before this Bill goes through, I intend to submit a number of amendments which I hope the Minister will accept because they will make the Bill a more secure one. One of the amendments I propose to submit is to change the personnel of this board. I would not hold the board to be an independent one if the Irish Coursing Club was permitted to nominate four people on it.

Mr. Dillon

They are not permitted to nominate four.

Mr. Walsh

They will nominate them to the Minister.

Mr. Dillon

I take it that the Deputy and myself are both trying to get the best possible board we can. Is there not a distinction between saying that the Minister is required to received four representatives from the Irish Coursing Club and saying that the Minister should choose four from the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club? There is a distinction. I believe that there is some virtue in continuity. In three years' time the Irish Coursing Club will be a body which is elected purely from the clubs throughout the country.

Mr. Walsh

Why not have the elected body first, so that when the Bill goes through you can have the four representatives from the new and freely elected standing committee? Why not give an opportunity to have the standing committee elected on a democratic basis by having the representatives of the coursing clubs throughout the country elected? You would then probably get as good, if not better, members from the standing committee.

Mr. Dillon

I had the feeling that, when you are trying to reform a situation of this kind, you should not try to do it by process of revolution. It is far better to do it gradually if you are certain that you are laying down an organisation that will gradually completely change the existing unrepresentative character to a purely representative character. We could have required them to hold elections immediately after the passage of the Bill but I felt it better to do it by easy stages because, if you did not do so, you might have a completely new committee without experience and that might lead to catastrophe.

Mr. Walsh

You are to suffer then for three years more?

Mr. Dillon

After the second year, two-thirds are elected and only one-third remains.

Mr. Walsh

You are suffering then for three years and having regard to the amount of damage done in the last six or seven years there will be no work for the board then because there will be no greyhounds. That is all I have to say about it at the moment but it is my intention to put in an amendment.

Mr. A. Barry

I think the purpose of the Bill is a good one, although I believe it is dealing with a matter which is relatively unimportant. However, I suppose it is only right that we should attend to the grievances attached to the breeding, coursing and, particularly, to the export of greyhounds. The headline of the horse-racing board has become quite attractive to the greyhound men although I believe myself that there is no comparison between the importance of the two bodies. Something had to be done because, after all, the greyhound industry has an exportable product which, as the former Minister for Agriculture has said, was worth roughly £1,000,000 eight or nine years ago and is now worth only half of that figure.

Many people are of the opinion that the decline in that market is due to some of the evils which this legislation sets out to correct. If that diagnosis is a correct one, this Bill will provoke disagreement on the points raised by Deputy Walsh on the details of this measure. Many people will take a lot of interest in this debate although, as I say, the matter is not a very important one. The greyhound has become part of the Irish scene and indeed, from the point of view of rearing and coursing, he is a very desirable part of the scene. I always like to see a young Irishman, the labourer or the farmer, out with a dog on Sunday. I think it is a grand thing. It helps to lighten the tedium of Irish country life. The coming of the racetrack has changed all that; it has made the young puppy worth a potential £100.

Many unhappy things came before this board. Those of us who read the evidence are aware of some of the charges and terrible revelations that were made. Of course, there was a great lot of exaggeration about the whole thing such as there was about the efficiency of the Irish Coursing Club. It is agreed that there was room for improvement. The Irish Coursing Club was started to look after a sport that had very little financial background and I think the Irish Coursing Club did that job very well. But the advent of the racetracks and of the export market produced evils and brought undesirables into the sport. The Irish Coursing Club were not competent to control and protect the breeder and the racegoer when they came to deal with great crowds. They were not able to deal with the new situation in the same way as they had been able to protect the game of coursing which was a comparatively small thing in the various districts.

That is what this Bill sets out to do —to try and eliminate the evils that exist. Frankly, I am not very sure whether it is going to succeed or not, but at any rate I think there is no point in discussing here now the transition period. I think the Minister is right in saying that there should be interim management by the Irish Coursing Club. That is the only sensible thing to do. You will get men on this board who were intimately associated with the Irish Coursing Club for years past and if Deputy Walsh were sitting here on this side of the House he would have to call on these men to participate.

Mr. MacEntee

But you need not necessarily give them the majority.

Mr. A. Barry

Deputy Walsh was quite agreeable to let the Irish Coursing Club do that while he was here as Minister for Agriculture. The difference between him and the present Minister is that the Minister is bringing in the Bill and Deputy Walsh did not. I am prepared to support the Minister on that basis. I should like to say that the original Irish Coursing Club did extremely good work, and I should like to record my appreciation of that and to state that the fact they were not competent to deal with the evils which arose was no slur on them.

Mr. MacEntee

What about the Greyhound and Sporting Press?

Mr. A. Barry

I am much more aware than is Deputy MacEntee of the background of that. I am not very good on most things but I know quite a lot about this. The Greyhound and Sporting Press was a most curious setup and its control is clearly defined in this Bill. I want to make sure that the rural breeder of greyhounds is not breeding for fun, that he will make a larger portion of profit out of the export of his animal and that foreign customers will get a reputable article and will come back for more. That is what I hope this Bill will do. Any further criticism can wait until the later stages. I agree with Deputy Walsh that the whole thing will stand or fall on the men who control it. If the Minister succeeds in getting men of integrity and character this Bill will succeed in its object.

Mr. O'Malley

Might I ask Deputy Barry if he was a member of the advisory committee who brought in the report?

Mr. A. Barry

I do not think that should be brought in here.

Mr. O'Malley

I see he was.

Mr. MacEntee

There is nothing to be ashamed of in the report, which I think was useful enough.

Mr. O'Malley

It has been stated that all the findings of the advisory committee were unanimous and yet at the outset of the report we have this extraordinary statement:

"At least one member of the committee questions whether the food consumed by greyhounds could not be more economically used in other ways and whether many of the persons concerned with the greyhound industry and particularly with greyhound racing could not be more usefully employed in other directions."

Mr. Dillon

Would the Deputy give the reference?

Mr. O'Malley

It is on page 7, section 3, paragraph 5 of the scope of inquiry of the advisory committee on the greyhound industry. The report goes on:

"He agrees, however, that the followers of greyhound racing are quite as entitled as other members of the community to the particular sport they prefer and also that greyhound racing, under proper supervision, cannot well be objected to on ethical grounds."

I wonder what about the moral ground? The report continues:—

"In any event, the industry, such as it is, definitely absorbs a large number of persons and its sudden collapse would, at least for a time, undoubtedly cause serious unemployment in many directions."

To have an individual of that mentality as a member of the board would cause one furiously to think as to the findings of the committee as a whole. If this is any criterion of the attitude adopted by the other members of the committee I, for one, cannot have 100 per cent. confidence in the report.

Mr. A. Barry

That would fix the whole thing.

Mr. O'Malley

There are other interests to be appointed by the Minister to act on the commission on the 21st February, 1951. I know some of the gentlemen who are appointed and they are of the highest integrity, entirely beyond reproach, but human nature being what it is, some of these gentlemen had vested interests, some of these gentlemen are important directors of greyhound tracks. I say that, unfortunately, while the greyhound track-managers and such, and a representative from the Department of Agriculture, were on this commission the ordinary man in the street—call him the punter or anything else—or the bookmaker, were not represented.

Talking about representation generally, the commission has condemned any sectional representation on this board. Before I come to the Irish Coursing Club representation, I would ask the Minister to cast his mind back to consider the nucleus of the Racing Board. He has used that as a comparison in many cases in his introductory speech to-day and in the explanatory leaflet he prepared. Is the Minister aware that an eminent member of the bookmaking fraternity is actually a member of the Racing Board for horse-racing, that a most eminent member who died some years ago had his place before that, and that it is an understood fact that the members of the bookmaking fraternity are entitled to representation?

I agree, again, as I say, that the commission is against anything in the nature of sectional interest, in the greyhound industry representation. They say it would lead, not to a committee of from five to seven, but to an unwieldy number of from 17 to 30. With that I agree, but surely one member on the board representing the bookmakers in the four provinces of Ireland would not be out of place?

On the question of the Irish Coursing Club representation, I sincerely trust that when the amendment is put before the Minister providing for control to be taken from them he will accept it. Some minutes ago the Minister was quite surprised when Deputy Walsh mentioned the fact that the Irish Coursing Club had in fact control, and I hope the Minister will appreciate the fact that it is unsatisfactory to have these people with a majority. I am not attacking the members of the Irish Coursing Club. Individually, they are gentlemen of the highest integrity, but what happened in the Irish Coursing Club was like what happened with Chiang Kai Shek in Formosa. We found family dynasties organising the running of the Irish Coursing Club and God only knows how they ran it. These gentlemen failed in their duty to the public and to the breeders and owners by not turning up at the meetings and by letting certain individuals carry on in whom they had the greatest—shall I say—trust. But in later years their eyes began to open. We had the extraordinary position that members of the Irish Coursing Club, who were on this commission, had not the guts to go down to Clonmel and say what they had to say. They stabbed individuals in the back in a report when they would not get up in Clonmel and say their say, when there was a responsibility and an onus on them to do so, if they had anything to say about the running of the Sporting Press and about the fact that fantastic profits made by that company were not ploughed back or utilised to the benefit of the smaller owners or the benefit of the greyhound tracks by increasing the amount of stakes. Rather were these profits spent on new buildings and buying—mark you—new machinery. The total expenditure, I think, came to something in the region of £64,000. The Sporting Press is supposed to be a body run on a non-profit basis but they went in and tendered for the printing of bookmakers' tickets and race-cards all over the country. These are the gentlemen who should have been questioned in Clonmel at meetings of the Irish Coursing Club. They come up here and prepare this report which was printed and published in the Press and which made most unhappy reading.

No one suggests—and I am not suggesting—that any individual or individuals derived any financial benefit which was not theirs; I simply observe that some individuals derived fantastic benefits and if what has been going on down the years in the Irish Coursing Club were generally known throughout the country—evidently it was cloaked—there would have been a revolution.

It has been remarked here to-day that a balance sheet was not produced at any meeting of the Irish Coursing Club—remarked in that commission report—but yet, as Deputy Walsh said, these are the people who are now going to obtain four out of seven seats on this board. Surely individuals of that type who allowed such matters to come to such a sorry pass are not the type of individuals to be entrusted with a matter on which we are all agreed, namely that the industry needs reorganisation.

Any fool can get up here and criticise——

Mr. Dillon

Oh, a Daniel come to judgment!

Mr. O'Malley

——but what is the alternative? Before we go into the lion's den, pass a Bill and make it an Act, I would like to say that I disagree entirely with Deputy Walsh that we should give the Irish Coursing Club any representation at all. The Irish Coursing Club in my opinion is a misnomer. A man may be most competent and have a great knowledge of coursing and breeding and of greyhound racing in all its branches without being a member of the Irish Coursing Club. There are Deputies on all sides of the House who know many men in Limerick, Kilkenny, Kerry and other places who would not touch the Irish Coursing Club with a 40-foot pole because it is only a clique of vested interests which stink in the opinion of many fair-minded sportsmen. As I asked a moment ago, what is the alternative? The alternative is this: leave the board at seven. I agree with the Minister's proposal to have an impartial chairman. In regard to the other six members I would go so far as to say that I trust the Minister—which might be an extraordinary statement—to appoint people who would be competent without having any tie-up with the Irish Coursing Club.

On the other hand, I do not want to suggest that just because an individual is a member of the Irish Coursing Club he should be debarred from being a member of this board and I hope that an amendment will be happily phrased which will express what I am taking so long to say.

The question of the bookmakers was raised here to-day. Under this Bill, the money to finance it has to be obtained somewhere and I do not agree with the expected source of revenue at all. First of all, the Minister is letting off one body of people very lightly. If the Minister quotes this report when it suits him, he should also quote it on relevant matters such as the source from which he is to obtain revenue. Is the Minister aware that there is in that report reference to the amazingly high and fantastic profits made by the Dublin tracks? That statement was made—and it was unanimously adopted—by a man who is a managing director of a greyhound track.

The proposition is to introduce the totalisator and 5 per cent. on that will yield £x; then there will be a levy on the bookmakers. The commission sent for representatives of various public bodies, one of which was the National Greyhound Racing Club in England. It is a pity they did not send for a representative of the Bookmakers' Association in Britain because what the Minister contemplates doing here was done in England, namely, imposing a tax on the bookmaker. I hold no brief for these gentlemen at all, or for any section of the community, but they are respected members of society as are the members of any other organisation, and they are entitled to the same rights as other organisations.

We hear a good deal about the Fair Trade Commission. Now, this Bill is the greatest bit of blackguardism against any set of individuals I have experienced. In England when punitive legislation was introduced the Chancellor of the Exchequer estimated the hypothetical revenue which would accrue. What was the result? Instead of having 60 or 70 bookmakers in the White City, at Wembley and Walthamstow, and other places the position now is that there are only three or four bookmakers left; and they are not individuals—they are combines. All the others were wiped out.

No doubt Deputies will talk about the smaller bookmaker in the course of this debate. He will be the first to go, and then the bigger man. Remember, there are not so many big men here, but they will go. Let me give an example of what may happen if the bookmakers have not somebody like the Racing Board on the control board to fight their case. The representatives of the directors of a certain track in the South of Ireland went to the representatives of the bookmakers some time ago and they said their revenue had fallen greatly and they wanted the bookmakers to pay an increased entry fee. They agreed, subject to a £20 race being introduced once a week. They paid the increased entry fee. A certain classic took place and after that classic there was no £20 race but the bookmakers were still liable, and are still liable, for the increased entry fee. It is all very well to say that if the bookmakers do not agree between themselves, in the allocation of pitches for instance, they can appeal to the board. If they get notice from the board that their licence will be taken away from them, it will not be taken from them for seven days and during that time they can make further representations to the board—the board which intends to remove them.

I would appeal to the Minister to wipe out of this Bill the payment of any levy whatsoever by the bookmakers. Let him cast his eye on the owners of the greyhound tracks who, the report says, are getting fantastic and abnormally high profits. Let him get the money for this control board from the owners of Shelbourne Park, Harold's Cross and so forth. All they will be charged under this is a possible rental for the totalisator, an unspecified sum. That will be done by regulation; but four of the individuals who will fix that rental will be members of the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club and nearly every track manager at the present time is a member of the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club.

To bear out what I have said, the following track interests are on the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club: P.F. O'Donoghue, Manager, Shelbourne Park; A.J. Morris, John Riordan, Harold's Cross; J. Clarke, Shelbourne; J.M. Collins, Shelbourne; P.J. Cox, Newbridge; J.P. Frost, Limerick; J.P. Ryan, Limerick, and W.J. Irwin, Limerick. Is it not possible that four of those gentlemen could be chosen? It is unlikely, but it is possible. If they are not chosen, is it not possible they could be got at? I do not mean "got at" in the sense of bribery or corruption, but so much is done in this city, from selling Tulyar to fixing other deals, in hotels, that it would not surprise me in the least if the control board were run from the Dolphin or somewhere like that. The position is much too serious.

I believe the Minister is genuine and sincere in this Bill. There is no suggestion of any political discrimination, but he has not yet appointed the board; we will have to wait until he appoints the board before we come to that. I appeal to him to bring in an amendment to cover the points which have been raised. I would like the bookmakers to have representation. I have read the report and the Bill three or four times. To show where victimisation can occur, let us assume that the board is appointed and the totalisator has been established in Shelbourne Park. The directors come along to deal with the location of bookmakers' pitches, or something like that; if agreement is not reached, the bookmakers can appeal to the board. There is something wrong in that.

The board may tell the bookmakers to shift their pitches from the rails and go back to the stand and they may put the totalisator in front of them. The bookmakers will have no redress. In Limerick, the bookmakers may be left where they are up under the long shed against the wall and the totalisator may be put 20 feet in front of them, between them and the track itself. They will have no redress. That is bad enough, but then the Minister comes along and mentions maximum charges. Maximum charges can be levied on bookmakers and there is no mention what those maximum charges will be. The bookmakers can be charged anything the control board deem just. Will the Minister believe me when I tell him that bookmakers in England were charged £40 per night and from an attendance of 70 they are now down to three on one of the more prominent tracks?

There is no mention whatever of what is to be the maximum charge on a bookmaker. The Minister cites the report when it suits his purpose in regard to the Bill but he pays no heed at all to the suggestion in the note in relation to the Racing Board that the maximum charge payable by bookmakers' there is five times the admission charge, in other words the ordinary entry fee and four times that entry fee. I think that the bookmakers would be very satisfied if, before this Bill goes through, the relevant section were amended so that there would be no doubt whatever about the charge. Section 48 states:

"(1) The board may by regulations fix the maximum charges to be made for admitting persons to greyhound racetracks and different charges may be fixed in respect of different tracks, in respect of different parts of the same track and in respect of bookmakers carrying on their business and persons who are not such bookmakers."

Therefore they are to be in the dark about representation or about a spokesman to fight their case on this new control board. To show the victimisation which exists—and we talk about the Racing Board—let the Minister go into the bar after races at Leopardstown, Phoenix Park or any other of these race meetings and he will find even substantial bookmakers there living in fear of these officials of the Racing Board—pimps going around with stubs of pencils—in case they will report them or have their licence taken from them for some such trivial matter as not having paid their licence on the 1st December instead of 2nd. If this big stick is being used by officials, at least the people concerned can turn around and go to Mr. Power or somebody else who is represented on the Racing Board and get some justice. They will get no justice from the representatives of the Irish Coursing Club.

They may get justice from the chairman, the impartial chairman, but what is he going to say? The conditions of his appointment are that he shall be impartial, that he will know nothing about greyhound racing except perhaps what he reads in the newspapers, that he will not be beneficially interested in the ownership of a racetrack, he must not course a dog, and so on. What will his attitude be? His attitude will be: "I am the chairman. I know nothing about coursing or greyhound racing and I will be guided by these gentlemen who, after all, are members of the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club." Therefore not alone will they have four members, but they will have an extra one. That leaves two, and I do not know who they will be. They might be defeated candidates in by-elections.

This Bill is so involved in regard to the position about bookmakers that an eminent colleague of mine who read it 16 times told me the best thing to do would be to consult senior counsel. When an eminent colleague advises me to consult senior counsel it must be very involved, because he has no love for senior counsel or such people.

Mr. Dillon

We are all longing to hear the name of the eminent colleague.

Mr. O'Malley

Michael Colbert. With regard to the estimates of the control board, in the first year the salary of the chairman was to be so much of the total expenditure.

In this first year the control board would have to find £22,000 to cover its administrative expenses alone; yet 2½ per cent. from betting with course bookmakers would yield £100,000, licence fees £1,000, etc. If we set up a board on which all sections of the House are unanimous, although we may differ about its constitution, where is the money going to come from to make it a success and put it in the position that it would be able to carry out the various sections of this Bill? If the totalisator is to be properly run it is pointless to have a race, say, at 8 o'clock and another at 8.10 p.m., giving only ten minutes for the tote to operate. There must be a different approach. The programme would have to operate so that the first race would be at 8 o'clock, the second at 8.30, every half hour, or perhaps it would be necessary to start a meeting earlier. We will have to attract a new type of individual. We will have to cater for people in a different way so that they will be able to go up to a bar and not be poisoned by some of the stuff one gets in such places. We must also ensure that a person can have a cup of tea. If a new type of customers is to be attracted there must be facilities for them. I am afraid a very large percentage of people at these tracks are from the left bank, the Latin quarter. If we want to get the people who are already educated to the tote, the racing fraternity, then we will have to give them the incentives which are provided at the race meetings.

In the report of the Racing Board it was pointed out that 80 per cent. of its revenue comes from the investor of 2/- units. That is an amazing figure. If this control board is to be successful we will have to attract a new type of individual and ensure that the tracks are a little more honest in certain respects than they are. The majority of the tracks in this country are "hooky". I have no intention of naming those tracks which are dishonest or those which are honest—I am too cute for that—but it is a known fact that if a certain gentleman, or gentlemen, is pally with the management of a certain track he will throw a dog into a race for him. He may have to wait for about three weeks but then it will be thrown into the race. Possibly it might get a box at the first bend but, more often than not, the much maligned bookmaker, who opens up cautiously at four or five to one, will pay dearly for the friend of the track manager. We all know that. Everyone on every side of the House knows that is going on and I am sure there are a few Deputies in the House who—well! It shows the strict supervision that is necessary. Can that be obtained with the proposed set-up of the new board? The man-in-the-street, the general public, the bookmakers, want representation on this board. By the "man-in-the-street" I mean an individual, a sportsman, having no ties to the Irish Coursing Club or any other coursing club. The Minister should appoint such an individual, who would be approachable and who would see the difficulties of various sections of the community, without having seen a greyhound track or coursing meeting. If the Minister were to appoint such a man he would be doing a good day's work.

I should like to quote for the Minister paragraph 136 of the Report of the Advisory Committee on the Greyhound Industry:—

"We have been impressed with the demand from practically all quarters for a control board to be established by an Act of the Oireachtas, somewhat on the lines of the Racing Board. Witness after witness declared that conditions in the greyhound industry are such as to place its future in grave jeopardy, that the Irish Coursing Club has failed to check prevailing abuses, and that in any event, a body, other than the Irish Coursing Club, armed by the Legislature with adequate power, is required to cope with the situation. Even the minority of opinion, which favoured the continuance of the Irish Coursing Club or of some kindred organisation directly representative of the greyhound industry, was in the main in favour of a control board."

It is not necessary to read the whole of the paragraph.

In paragraph 137 they state:—

"After careful consideration, we are in agreement with the general demand for a control board and hereby recommend that such body be established by an Act of the Oireachtas. Every witness who advocated a control board was requested to give his view as to how the board should be constituted and what interests—if any—should have direct representation on it. It is perhaps only natural that certain interests, e.g., Racing Track Managements, Course Bookmakers, Bookmakers' Assistants, the Irish Coursing Club itself, etc., would each feel entitled to representation. The bulk of opinion as revealed both in memoranda and during oral evidence was, however, opposed to sectional representation."

We should not have it both ways. If the Irish Coursing Club is to be represented, let the bookmakers come in. The Irish Coursing Club cover all sections. The bookmakers are just the one body left out. If the bookmakers are to be left off the control board and if the one representative they seek is cut out, we should also cut out the Irish Coursing Club or members of the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club and, instead, appoint a reputable man. I agree that he could have a connection with the sport.

The Minister for Finance, through the Revenue Commissioners, derives from the entertainment tax on greyhound racing a sum in the region of £13,000 to £18,000—subject to correction. This Bill can only be a success through the assistance and contribution of the general public, in other words, the man who places his bet. I suggest that the Minister should use his good offices with the Minister for Finance to cut out the entertainment tax on people who go to greyhound tracks. We would start off then with the position that there would be no tax; there would be further increases in revenue and there would be these allegedly fantastically high profits of the track owners. Why not make one collection then? Let them take what they can. The tote will benefit. More people will come in if the price is reduced by virtue of the tax being eliminated. The Minister could take the necessary steps to see that the price would not be the same. Instead of this impossible levy, the Minister could then ascertain what contribution—and I submit it would be a very substantial contribution— could be obtained from the greyhound track owners themselves.

Section 23 (3) (d) deals with the right of the board to set up, maintain and work totalisators on greyhound racetracks on such sites as may be required by the board and, where they are set up, as to provision by licensees of suitable arrangements for bookmakers in places convenient for carrying on their business, such arrangements to be determined, in default of agreement between bookmakers and licensees, by the board. That is another section which will lead inevitably to friction and there is the possibility that the Greyhound Bookmakers' associations may stop betting entirely at greyhound tracks. Then, let them have their tracks and their totalisator and we will see how successful the owners of these tracks will be without the bookmakers. That is not an idle threat and that is not a gun held up to the head of the Minister by these people. Their livelihood is at stake. If the Bill in its present form is enacted, their days are numbered.

I am in favour of not having any levy at all and I have already given the Minister another source from which we can get the contribution. It is expected to get a contribution of £100,000 from a 5 per cent. levy; £43,700 from a 2½ per cent. levy, and that from a levy of 1¼ per cent. the revenue expected would be from £20,000 to £25,000. I say that the Minister should get that money from the fantastic profits said to be made by the two big Dublin tracks and ultimately from the two provincial tracks, where it is anticipated that the totalisator will be working in three or four years' time.

If a person goes and puts a bet on a greyhound at six to four and wins, that would gain him 3/- to 2/-. At a levy of 1¼ per cent. that would amount to something like a halfpenny. It must be obvious to the Minister that the bookmakers will have to employ extra staff to deal with these halfpence, pence and threepences and to pay out the money. Besides having to employ extra staff there is also the possibility that the bookmakers will lose business. If a person sees a bookmaker with 20 or 30 people around him waiting to be paid he will go elsewhere to place his bet. Not alone will he do that but he might be driven down to the tote. This goes to show that the bookmakers are going to suffer further. They have taken the matter so seriously that they have actually made representations that, should any of their assistants lose employment, consideration should be given to these assistants in the recruiting of the staff for the working of the totalisator.

I should like to make my attitude quite clear about the control board. I am not casting any aspersions on any of these gentlemen and if a person such as Mr. J. P. Frost, managing director of the Limerick track, were appointed to the control board, I, for one, would have no objection. As individuals, they are men of the highest integrity and honour but they will see only one side of the matter— their own side as track directors. Any action contemplated by them will not be impartial. They will want to see what will be the overall outcome of such an action on their own financial matters. That does not mean that such men of the highest integrity and honour will be biassed in giving information on certain matters. What they will do is to "cod" their consciences that what they are doing is being done impartially and in the best interests of the industry. I can only offer the strongest objection if these people, as a body, are going to control the industry.

We have already gone against the report of the committee in some respects and I would suggest that we go further and have an impartial chairman; give the Bookmakers' Association a representative; give the breeders or owners a representative and give the track management a representative. We should cut the thing down to a chairman and four others. I think the confidence of the public will not be obtained unless these changes are made in the Bill when it comes before the House again.

Section 17 of the Bill states:—

"The board may borrow such sums as it may require for the purposes of its functions, but the total amount due at any time in respect of such loans shall not, without the consent of the Minister, given with the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, exceed £25,000."

I am suggesting to the Minister that this board might borrow £25,000, to start off with, before it begins to function in a manner which will wipe out a section of the community which gives great employment and is a source of revenue to the Minister in other matters. The Minister should bear in mind that the greyhound bookmakers are carrying on business, or at least some of them are carrying on business, through S.P. offices. Therefore, he should bear in mind what the provisions of Section 17 are. He has suggested that there should be no revolution in regard to the setting up of this control board and that it should be a gradual process. Then let us start off quietly and gradually in this matter. Let the new board borrow the £25,000 which they are empowered to borrow, then review the position after 12 months and let the Minister come back to the House and bring in amendments to this Act but let us have these safeguards first.

Debate adjourned.