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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 8 Feb 1956

Vol. 154 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Rural Electrification Charges—Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That Dáil Éireann is of the opinion that extra service charges should not have been and should not be imposed on persons availing of the rural electrification scheme, and calls on the Government to introduce the necessary amending legislation to abolish these charges with retrospective effect.—(Deputy McQuillan.)

When speaking on this debate on the last occasion, I mentioned that the E.S.B. were obliged to provide supply to every rural householder, where the capital cost did not exceed 16 times the revenue derived from the annual fixed charge. In 1951, that ratio was extended to 20 to 1 and in September, 1952, the ratio was again extended to 24 to 1. The present position is that the board will provide supply to any householder, where the capital cost does not exceed 24 times the revenue derivable from the annual fixed charge, and in any case where it does not exceed 24 times the revenue, the supply is put in without any extra special charge.

I think this was a great concession. It eased the charges on a very large number of rural consumers. Had the board insisted, as they might have done, on retaining a 16 to 1 ratio, it would have meant that a very large number of consumers would have been put into the category of those who would have to pay the special fixed charges.

As it is 24 to 1, revenue works out at 4.2 per cent. The board expect a return from the rural householder of only 4.2 per cent. They may get a lesser return in some cases, but they are prepared to go to the extreme limit of supplying any rural householder with electric light and power, where they will get a return of only 4.2 per cent. Sinking fund and interest charges alone amount to 5.5 per cent. and where the board put on this extra special fixed charge, they calculate the amount which the householder has to pay on the basis of only 4.2 per cent.

Deputy McQuillan, when moving the motion, mentioned that, after a certain number of years, these householders who were obliged to pay the special fixed charge had paid for the wiring and that they were still obliged to pay for many years—for ever, you might say—although in a certain number of years they would pay for the complete cost of wiring and bringing the poles to their houses. As I have stated, the basis on which that charge is computed is still only 4.2 per cent. so that the charge does not meet even the sinking fund charge, depreciation and redemption of capital. There is no allowance made in the extra special charge for either depreciation or redemption of capital. Therefore, there is no question of the person having ever paid for that extra amount. The charge is just put on to meet the ordinary charges and in fact it does not meet the charges.

If allowance were made for the special fixed charge to take in capital costs, such as depreciation, apart from sinking fund charges and redemption of capital, the charge which the board would be obliged to put on would be so heavy that any householder who would not be entitled to get supply at the normal fixed charge would not take the current. He could not afford to take it, because, instead of paying 4.2 per cent., which would mean possibly, in some cases, 10/- per two-monthly period and in other cases, £1 per two-monthly period, the householder would be compelled to pay possibly 30/- or £3 per two-monthly period, which would put the cost outside his capacity altogether. By giving supply at the lower rate of 4.2 per cent., which is based on the normal fixed charge ratio of 24 to 1, supply is brought within the reach of most people, no matter how isolated they may be.

A suggestion was thrown out towards the close of the debate on the last occasion that had the Government not withdrawn the £250,000 subsidy which they had been giving to the board, the board would now be in a position to abolish all these fixed charges. The Deputy who made that suggestion had been in charge of my Department for many years and, as far as I know, had never made any suggestion to the board that they should abolish these fixed charges. He was the person who instructed the board originally about the fixed charges and, again, I admit, he was the person who extended the ratio to 20 to 1 and to 24 to 1. But the Deputy at that time did not make any suggestion to the board that they should abolish these charges and he took it that it was only just and fair that that extra special charge should be made in certain cases to make the rural electrification scheme reasonably economic. Without that, it could not have been faced at all.

Another point is that, if these extra special charges were removed, the only people who would have to pay the piper would be the rural consumers already connected or those who will be connected in future and I understand— and I have been supplied with data— that that would amount to anything up to 10 per cent. on the general body of rural consumers.

Mr. Lemass

How much would it cost?

Will the Parliamentary Secretary give the figure of actual money?

I will come to that later. It could amount, I understand, to anything up to 10 per cent. on the rural consumers and that would mean that many people who have already taken supply would not be very pleased. It would also mean that people in newly-developed areas who have already agreed might not be too agreeable when they saw this new 10 per cent. charge clapped on to them.

That is a new approach.

Mr. Lemass

It certainly is.

It is well to see a new approach now and again.

There was £90,000 handed back last year to the Exchequer.

Why make the few individuals pay?

Either those consumers are charged or you load up the city consumer and I think city consumers have a fair share of the cost to pay at the moment. I feel sure Deputy McQuillan would not want to load them further.

I should like the Minister to base his case on facts.

We are talking about areas not included. The E.S.B. Act applies to the whole lot of them.

I am talking about pockets of rural dwellers.

When this conversation is over, perhaps we will proceed with the debate.

I was going to suggest to Deputy McQuillan that he would leave this motion until the scheme is completed. All we can do at the moment is give a very rough figure.

How did you get the 10 per cent. so?

It was a rough estimate.

Give it to us in a money estimate then.

Give us a transformer station area, and the number of consumers and we will give you a figure easily enough.

I think Deputy McQuillan agrees with me that the best approach to this can be made when the final figures are available. That will be the time for a review of the charges. I feel the House would much prefer that the E.S.B. should not receive any subsidy in future. I think Deputies will agree that we would all much prefer that any of these boards should not be paid subsidies. The E.S.B. are now an independent body, paying their way, and I do not think the House would be anxious to resume subsidising them.

The rural electrification scheme is progressing very satisfactorily and very quickly. It could happen, if the board were to take on this extra burden, that it might slow down the work and the progress of the scheme would suffer. Deputy McQuillan paid a great tribute to the board and I feel sure that in this motion he did not intend to hamper the board or to slow up the progress of the rural electrification scheme. I think we all see that it is much better to have an independent board than one which is depending on our subsidies.

Now that Deputy McQuillan has heard me, I feel he will agree that it would be much better to defer consideration of his motion until the scheme is completed and until final figures are available. At that time we will be able to go into the case fully and see what would be the actual cost of remitting these extra charges. It would have been a different matter had it been the case that the board were making money by imposing these extra charges—that they were gaining something out of rural electrification through these charges. As I pointed out earlier, the basis of these is only 4.2 per cent. and the sinking fund charges and others amount to 5.5 per cent., so that the board are really giving a very considerable concession at the present time to rural consumers. There are many cases such as those cited by Deputy McQuillan. The whole thing can be reviewed when the scheme is completed and I feel sure that the special charges will be abolished.

Mr. Lemass

I want to say only a few words on this matter. I should like to say that the case made by the Parliamentary Secretary is in my view illogical and nonsensical. I suppose it was the best case he could make. He said these charges existed when I was Minister for Industry and Commerce. Does he not know that there has been a fundamental change in the scheme since that time and that the subsidy previously given from the Exchequer towards the capital cost of rural electrification has been abolished? These extra charges arose out of the situation in which there was a decision that there should be no loss shown on the board's revenue account because of rural electrification. This Government have piled loss after loss on the board. They have abolished the capital subsidy and made the E.S.B. carry the whole of the uneconomical element in rural electrification. They have made the E.S.B. repay the subsidy already given and made the board carry that charge on the revenue account. Now the Government having swallowed the camel are talking about this gnat, this minor item of the additional charges imposed upon a small minority of rural dwellers.

Let me give the Parliamentary Secretary some of the history attached to this matter. When the scheme was started the E.S.B. carried out trial developments in a number of areas and as a result they reported to the Government as to the charges which would have to be imposed on rural dwellers to give them electricity without loss to the E.S.B. On the basis of those charges it was decided that rural electrification was impossible—that the charges were so high only a very small minority of rural dwellers would be prepared to accept supply. The Government of the day, at my instance, took a decision that the charge to rural dwellers for electricity should be on the basis of the then existing rural tariff of the E.S.B. and the board were requested to revise the finances of the scheme on the basis of that decision. The rural electrification scheme which was submitted to the Dáil and approved by the Dáil was based on these two principles: (1) That the E.S.B. should not lose anything over rural electrification and (2) that the uneconomic element would be carried by the capital subsidy, and (3) that where the capital cost of giving supply in any case exceeded 16 times the fixed charge revenue, this extra charge would operate. But that is all gone now.

No. Not entirely. Why do you not carry your history a bit further? Who gave the E.S.B. power in 1953 to raise their charges? You did.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy McGilligan has either been entertaining or been entertained by his Ard-Fheis delegates. He should go to sleep somewhere else.

What about 1953?

Mr. Lemass

To anybody who is capable of grasping the facts, I will explain the situation. The rural tariff is a two-part system of making rural dwellers pay for electricity: (1) A fixed charge, based upon the valuation of the house, the income from which is designed to meet the capital cost of connecting with the network; (2) A charge based on the actual current consumed, a charge per unit. Once the capital charge of bringing the network there has been ascertained, the cost is known and fixed for all time. There can be no subsequent variation of that. Variations in the unit cost of current do not enter into this. We are dealing with the capital cost of bringing the supply to the house.

And the board's revenue.

Mr. Lemass

The decision taken by the Government of the day, and approved by the Dáil, was that the rural electrification scheme should not involve any loss to the E.S.B.—should not involve any additional charge upon the general revenue of the board. Last year, the Government decided to tear that whole scheme up. They decided to abolish the subsidy—to make the board pay retrospectively the amount already received by way of subsidy and to carry the whole cost. They put a charge of £250,000 per year on the board's revenue by reason of the retrospective application of that decision. Now they argue that the board must not carry a loss in respect of rural electrification, merely to justify imposing this meagre and mean extra charge upon a very small minority of rural dwellers.

Every rural dweller now given an electricity supply involves a loss to the board. Is that not so? The loss is big or small according to the actual cost.

There was no increase whatsoever in the charge to the rural consumer.

Mr. Lemass

The loss is on the E.S.B. and it will mount year after year until it is £1,000,000 per year. Deputy McGilligan has only to put his head on his hands and he will be asleep in a minute.

At least I have a head, which is something Deputy Lemass has not.

Mr. Lemass

The attitude taken by the Parliamentary Secretary is immoral. Why should the E.S.B. supply one rural dweller with electricity at a loss and refuse to supply the other unless he pays something towards the minimisation of the loss? Where is this 24 to 1 ratio? Why not say to the board: "Your job is to give a supply of electricity at a uniform rate of charge to every rural dweller and carry the cost." That is what you decided last year. Why not now?

The logical consequence of the abolition of the subsidy would have been the abolition of the extra charge. If the Government had done that they might have got more general approval to abolish the subsidy. Once you decided that electricity consumers generally in towns and countryside should bear the whole cost of the uneconomic rural electrification supply, the case for an extra charge disappeared. There is no justification for it. So far as I am concerned, I will give an undertaking that if ever again I become Minister for Industry and Commerce——

That is easy.

Mr. Lemass

——I will abolish it forthwith as unjustifiable and immoral. I hope Deputy McQuillan will put this amendment to the House and divide the House on it because it is entirely wrong to maintain that extra charge in the circumstances in which the subsidy was abolished. How much would it cost? Is it not a mere bagatelle in relation to the charges you put on the E.S.B. last year by abolishing the subsidy?

We did not put any on them.

Mr. Lemass

This pretence that we can only get a rough estimate is nonsense. If you telephone the E.S.B. now they can tell you the exact amount that came in last year in respect of extra charges and they can give you the estimate for this year, too. I say that the only reason why the Parliamentary Secretary will not name the amount is because he is ashamed to do so. The amount is so small, in relation to the charges they put on the E.S.B., that he would not humiliate his Government by mentioning them.

To the rural consumers it would be about 10 per cent.

Mr. Lemass

If the abolition of the extra charge is going to increase the cost of electricity to rural consumers by 10 per cent., then the abolition of the subsidy——

That is different altogether.

Has there been an increased charge?

Mr. Lemass

No. This talk of 10 per cent. extra charge on rural consumers is all nonsense? It would not be noticed in the accounts of the E.S.B. if it were abolished. The accountant could hardly work it down to a percentage so that the Parliamentary Secretary could understand what the difference would be in total revenue. Have a bit of common sense, and get rid of it. It is the last remnant of the original rural electrification scheme.

This has been described as "immoral", "meagre" and "mean". Deputy Lemass is responsible for all the charges that call for these three adjectives. The subsidy does not matter one way or the other. I do not know whether I should say this in praise of them or in derogation of them but the fact is that the E.S.B. poked their fingers into Deputy Lemass's eye in 1953 when they got him to increase the charges. Why did he increase them? He increased them because he thought the E.S.B. were going to run into difficulties. The result was that the E.S.B. became enormously wealthy.

Mr. Lemass

What about the abolition of the extra service charges?

I believe they could, but not in this amendment— because this will have repercussions that Deputy McQuillan is not thinking of.

Tell us about them.

I will, in a moment. Deputy Lemass knows very well that the E.S.B. got leave to increase their charges from him. The result was that what they called their surplus revenue —they never make a profit: they are not supposed to—piled up to an enormous amount so that they had a bigger amount of money on reserve and for contingency than ever before. They put more money against renewals than they ever thought they would be able to do.

When we abolished the subsidy last year, the E.S.B. were full of lamentations because, looking back statistically, there would probably be three or four seasons in which the E.S.B. would not do as well as it had done. It wants wet weather in certain seasons and at other times it wants dry weather. The Deputy was full of lamentations. Everybody spoke. The prospects were desperate. If we took away the subsidy, the E.S.B. would lose money. They are well able to meet this charge.

Deputy Lemass used the adjectives "meagre", "mean" and "immoral". He fixed the special charges. He allowed the board to do it. When he says the circumstances have changed, I say they have not as far as that is concerned. Not one penny extra has been charged to the rural dweller in respect of electricity in the rural areas. Is that not right? They are well able to finance it and carry it, without a subsidy of 50 per cent. The situation of the E.S.B. is very well able to bear this charge, and I do not think that this charge matters very much at all. Do not forget, when voting for this, that legislation must hang on what is aimed at.

I have to go further back into history. When the electricity legislation was being carried through this House, the great fear expressed was that it was not going to be economic. All the technicians and non-technicians in Fianna Fáil feared outside this House that the thing was going to collapse as a white elephant—I need not do more than repeat the phrase that was driving the people to a high state of frenzy. Inside this House the fear that was bruited around was that Dublin was going to be made the whipping-boy of the whole country, that we were going to take over a whole lot of uneconomic stations right through the provincial areas and that all the costs of the acquisition would be laid on Dublin. The result was that against my will, because I had to meet all these fatuous objections, there was buried somewhere in the legislation a phrase that the E.S.B. would have to fix their charges in such a way that they met their expenditure and nothing more. They were not supposed to make a profit and they should not have surplus revenue. If they had, they should have a surplus account. They should not try to charge any inhabitant in one area, that is defined as a transformer station area, the expense of bringing electricity to another area.

Mr. Lemass

There is no such provision in the legislation.

There is such provision in the legislation. There is provision with regard to transformer station areas, in regard to the making of a charge, and that is the way the board keeps its accounts all through the years. Everybody knows that. What was the reason for the special charge otherwise? Was it not that people in an area getting a subvention up to a certain amount were not going to be asked to pay extra to bring electricity supply to people on the outskirts?

Mr. Lemass

It was not. It was a case of giving it to individual houses.

Is it developed according to areas?

Mr. Lemass

No. In the Act which set up the rural electrification scheme there is no reference to areas.

May be not, because that was already in the general electricity legislation.

Mr. Lemass

There is nothing in the original legislation about it.

I tell you that there is. In the section that dealt with the fixing of a charge there is a phrase that says that the expenses of giving electricity to people in one area are not to be charged on the people of another area. If Deputy McQuillan carries his motion, he will be a sorry man because it may have effects he does not desire. One would want to know an area to get any proper idea of the effect, but take an area where there are a lot of houses on the outskirts; remember that the people inside the area are benefiting by the rural area subvention and the people on the outskirts are paying a certain charge, but if those people paying the special charge have the special charge abolished, which is what this motion means, it is going to be spread on their neighbours.

Not at all. Ridiculous.

Why should it make their neighbours pay the special charge?

Ask Deputy Lemass.

I am asking you.

He did that a long time ago and it was mean and immoral and meagre to do it.

Mr. Lemass

It was not done. It was never done. That is nonsensical.

You cut off the subsidy.

The special charge is what Deputy Burke is talking about. The Deputy does not know what he is talking about.

You do not know what you are talking about.

I am talking about the special charge which Deputy Lemass described to-night as mean, meagre and immoral. I thought that Deputy Burke's question related to that special charge.

Deputy Lemass said it was mean, meagre and immoral.

Mr. Lemass

But you abolished the subsidy. Are you clear about that?

The subsidy, as far as rural electrification is concerned, has not made a penny piece difference. Is that not right?

Mr. Lemass

Does it not go on to the extra charges?

The extra charges were there before the subsidy was taken off, and since.

But they have increased since the subsidy was taken off.

There is no charge——

Deputy Burke must cease interrupting.

If that is what is meant I will meet it. If it can be said to me that the special charge has increased in the last two years I will meet that point. I do not believe there is a case of it.

There is. I could give it to you in writing. I have not got it here now.

There is not.

My colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary, says there is not. I cannot see how there can be.

I am dealing with cases of the kind in County Dublin day after day.

Then you should send the details to the Parliamentary Secretary.

I have already asked questions about it in the House.

Deputy Lemass suggests that the abolition of the subsidy will affect the special charge. I do not believe it has and I challenge contradiction about it. I believe the board can easily carry on.

Mr. Lemass

It is the 10 per cent. Will you make up your minds between you—have an inter-Party agreement?

If the Deputy will agree, we will have done something that is merely removing an immoral, meagre and mean charge. Will he give us that kudos? After the Parliamentary Secretary's remarks I must go on what I have already remarked, that is, that reduction in the special charges spread over the whole body of electricity consumers would not make any great difference; but a reduction in the special charges in certain areas, if they have to be levied off the other rural consumers in those areas, would mean a big difference. What you may be doing, and I suggest you are doing, if you abolish those special charges, which is what the resolution requests, is that you may have to spread it over the people in the rural area.

You have cut out the subsidy.

The subsidy has nothing to do with it.

Indeed it has.

There has not been a change since the subsidy was removed. There has not been an increase in the E.S.B. charge since it was removed. If any Deputy thinks that there has been, I would like information about it. By voting for this, you may be charging your neighbours more, not charging Dublin more, but perhaps the Deputy would be very glad to load this on to the Dublin consumer.

It may be possible to do that by manipulation or administrative means. I do not think it is possible to do it legally at the moment. I have suggested to the Tánaiste before he went abroad that this might easily disappear, because there is no reason why you should stop at a certain point and say: "Up to that point we will give a subvention and beyond that we will ask the people to pay." The only thing is this: watch how far you are going if you are going to put any limitation or ceiling with regard to the valuation of premises. Supposing big houses on the outskirts of some of these rural areas are to be connected, it will be very costly to bring electricity to them.

Mr. Lemass

The bigger the house the bigger the charge, and the bigger the revenue. The trouble never was in bringing the supply to the big house, but to the small house.

There are not many of these big houses in the area I am talking about, the West of Ireland.

Are there not still a number of them in the West of Ireland?

Mr. Lemass

The trouble comes from the small house, not the big house.

This resolution speaks of all of them and the abolition of the special charges.

You are only drawing a red herring.

If this is going to be thought of it should be limited to people of certain valuations. We could measure them by one of the types of charges they have to meet, but this resolution is not so simple at it looks. It is going to be one about which an attempt will be made to make propaganda out of it and it will affect neighbours in the rural areas.

Not at all.

The last speaker said that withdrawing or reducing the special charges would affect the neighbours. I wonder will the last Deputy who has spoken go down and tell the people down the country the reason they cannot do it or why they reduced the subsidy. I agree with Deputy Lemass. The very point he made when he was speaking was, why should one section of the people in my constituency avail fully of electrification and why should a number of other people who just missed the rural electrification scheme be penalised? Why should they pay these extra special charges? I think that is morally wrong.

Your own Minister put them on.

Yes, but the Attorney General has just said it was going to upset the whole ecenomy of the E..SB. if these special charges are abolished. I am going to put it to the Government—why do they not now restore the subsidy? Is it right that a number of people in my constituency have to pay these extra charges in the rural electrification area? These people are not the owners of big houses, as the last speaker tried to make out; they are owners of small houses, most of them small farmers and most of them have to manage with the candle and oil still, as a result of the decision of the E.S.B. I have asked a number of question in this House about these special charges and in the case of those I have been dealing with for the past two years in County Dublin, the extra charges have gone up.

They have not.

I have nothing to say to the E.S.B.; it is an efficient body of organised workers. It is a good board which looks after its business in a proper manner, but I do say that the E.S.B. should at least be left the subsidy this Dáil voted to it to deal with rural electrification. I do not agree that there should be any special charge.

There is no change in the charges.

Surely we were told under the Constitution there were equal rights for all, but some people in my constituency have to pay special charges for E.S.B. current, and that should not be the case, because some of them are living in council cottages and others are small farmers, and there are none of them in the big houses. We are concerned with the small people who cannot go on paying these extra charges for all time. I hold there is an obligation on this Dáil to be at least impartial and just to these people. I go further and say, irrespective of this motion, that the whole thing was wrong and that it should never have been allowed to go ahead. The last speaker said there would be extra charges on A. and B. and C. I do not see how that can be——

Of course it will.

The Government has the answer. Let them put back the subsidy and be impartial with rural dwellers. Do not let us have A. B. and C. having reasonably cheap, electricity and D. and E., who are just out of the general chain, having to pay extra charges for all time.

The records of this House will show that I have put down numerous questions and I have also put questions to the E.S.B. on this, and I hold that it is completely wrong for the Dáil to uphold a matter of this kind. Deputy Lemass says it is morally wrong; I believe it is morally wrong, and I think it is wrong for any Government to hold the view that these people should pay extra charges.

Who put them on?

The Deputy has put up a lot of things since she came into this House and there are no labour marches now in Dublin.

That is what you think.

There are no more unemployed marches or anything like that now.

A Deputy

We are glad of that.

And there is nobody lying down on O'Connell Bridge.

They are all gone to England.

Deputy Burke on this motion.

I have much pleasure in supporting Deputy McQuillan's motion, because I believe it is long overdue. I hope this Dáil will do justice to the peoples who have been unjustly treated not alone in my constituency but in tvery other constituency in the Twenty-Six Counties.

I believe my very good friend, Deputy Burke, would follow a vote up a drainpipe, because to-day he has been giving bouquets to the E.S.B. and standing up for the unjusly treated at the same time. I think anybody who heard him in any corner of this land would have felt that Deputy Burke was going to give them something for nothing, and that cannot be done.

Put back the subsidy.

Deputy Burke has already spoken.

Deputy Burke referred to what the position was and what the position is now. The position is that there were extra charges before there was any change in the E.S.B. finances. As a person who went out and canvassed all round a rural area to get people to take E.S.B. light and power into their houses, I know that at that time the small house down the long lane had to pay extra charges under Fianna Fáil. All that is wrong is that, because we are now in power, something that is unpleasant must be revolted against by Deputy Burke and the people must be championed. Will Deputy Burke say now, were the extra charges there before we came into power or were they not? Of course, they were.

The position has been explained by the Attorney-General. The E.S.B. is not allowed to make a profit, but the E.S.B. had made a profit which was referred to as surplus revenue and as a result it was in a position to stand on its own feet. There has been no talk of the E.S.B. official who went down the long lane and measured the distance across the field to the nearest supply and decided what would be the cost of bringing the supply to the consumer who would have to bear the charge, whatever Government was in power. Does Deputy Burke not understand that? Perhaps he would prefer to go up drainpipes after votes Deputy Burke must stand up as the saviour of the down-trodden and it is not fair or just, because, as long as he stands up for the down-trodden he will get votes and get them——

They have made a discovery.

On a point of order. Was it at the Ard Fheis they said that? Deputy Donegan is the hero that wants the people of County Louth to pay the extra charges.

If Deputy Burke cannot conduct himself, I will ask him to leave the house. He has already spoken.

I am not the hero who wants to have extra charges in County Louth, but the Deputy did not go around when I was canvassing for people to take E.S.B. current and say that it was Fianna Fáil who had put on the extra charge. It is not fair for Deputy Burke to say now that it was Fine Gael who put it on. It is a method of levying the expenses of the E.S.B. and there is not one whit of change in it.

Take it off.

I am very much in favour of having the special charge done away with. The E.S.B. is reaching into the worst areas now. In the beginning they chose the better areas —areas which were more convenient and more accessible—but the situation to-day is different. At the present stage of development of the E.S.B., they are reaching into areas which are backward and we find that there are more special charges coming into operation now than heretofore. That cannot be denied and if one wishes to find out the true position, I am sure he will get the information from the E.S.B. It is true to say that more special charges are being imposed now than at any other time for the reasons I have mentioned. As I have said, the E.S.B. are getting into the more backward areas, where houses are more scattered and are far away from the main lines.

Therefore, whatever the rights or wrongs of the special charge were up to now, if we want to supply these people—they are the people in the poorer districts of our country—and give them the same facilities enjoyed by the majority of the people in the rest of the country, we must do away with the special charge. Otherwise, the backward areas will now have to pay over and above or help to subsidise the better-off areas.

If, as was suggested, the E.S.B. were to be subsidised by the Government they could more readily do that and now is the time that subsidisation by the Government is really and truly necessary. We have reached the stage where the areas which are to be done, or are being done, are the areas where the people cannot afford to pay. Therefore, a subsidy is very necessary indeed.

I am certainly, for the reasons I have mentioned, very much in favour of doing away with the special charge. If necessary, in order to counteract any loss there may be to the E.S.B., I would suggest that the subsidy be reintroduced in order to supply Gaeltacht areas and areas along the western seaboard where the E.S.B. by imposing their special charges now admit it is uneconomic to go into these areas to supply the householders there. The position in future years will be that there will be, especially in the West of Ireland, areas left out, because the people, no matter how small the special charge may be, will not be able to afford to pay it.

There will not be any areas left out. There may be houses left out but not areas.

The E.S.B. is now going into the most uneconomic districts. What happens, when the E.S.B. comes into part of a county, is that a survey is made and the most economic and best paying areas, as far as the E.S.B. is concerned, are picked first.

There are many more people applying.

If the special charge is not increased, if the charge remains the same, but if the number of cases where it is applied increases, then you will have fewer applications for the E.S.B. supply. You find that, five years ago, the best areas were taken, developed and supplied. Four years ago the next best areas were taken, developed and supplied. Three years ago the next best areas were taken, developed and supplied. At the present time and in the future the dregs will be taken. That is why not only must we do away with the special charge but we can make a very strong case for reintroducing a subsidy. I would advise the Government to study the matter very closely and carefully and see to it that no section of the community, especially the poorer sections, are left without supply.

As usual, the Opposition is trying to mislead the country on this matter. Anyone who has any experience of rural electrification knows quite well that this special charge has always existed since 1947. Anyone who had any connection with a canvass knows that it has always existed. The Opposition tells us to give back the subsidy and the matter will be put right.

That is right.

That is not the position. That was there all the time. The subsidy has nothing to do with it. What happened was that the increase allowed in 1953 by Fianna Fáil put the E.S.B. in the position that they had profits. The Government last year were able to take away the subsidy and leave the E.S.B. in the position of being able to work on their own without any subsidy from the State—which was a very good thing. It has been pointed out clearly, according to the present legislation, that if those extra charges are brought in at the same level the additional amount of money it will cost to install light will have to be spread over the particular area. It will not be spread over the country as a whole. In that way it will lean very heavily on those people. The subsidy has nothing to do with the matter but it is a grand thing for Fianna Fáil to stand up and request that the subsidy be put back and that everything will be right. The charges were there all the time and the giving back of the subsidy will not put the situation right.

I want to support this motion. I am surprised at the attitude of the Government Benches. It is not a question of who was responsible for putting on this charge originally or who was not. The question is, who is going to take it off? The present Government, particularly the Labour section, were committed to subsidisation. Everyone will agree that rural electrification was one of the greatest boons conferred on this country by Fianna Fáil. The present Government came in here committed to subsidisation in order to keep down the cost of living. I should like to hear Deputy Tully on this question of rural electrification.

The Deputy was not here the night before the Recess.

The one thing which mitigates against its general acceptance is the rather difficult charge known as a fixed charge. That is further aggravated in some cases by a special charge where a separate transformer has to be erected on the fringe of a development area to accommodate two or three houses. The least one would expect, when the Government found the E.S.B. was making a profit, was that, instead of withdrawing the subsidy, they would have gone to the E.S.B. and said: "Now that you are showing a profit we want you to apply this subsidy to the removal of the special charges which are prohibiting some people from getting the benefit of the E.S.B. service." Is that not a very simple thing to do? People who stand up here and say that the subsidy has nothing to do with it are either pretending they do not see that point or are too dense to see it. Goodness knows, that was one opportunity given to the present Government to try to redeem itself in some little way in relation to the promise to keep down the cost of living. The Government could have applied that subsidy, which was already there, to the E.S.B. and asked that body, in return, to reduce its charges.

Who would pay for the subsidy?

That is what the Deputy is afraid of.

Who paid for the subsidy in the past? It was already there.

Deputy O'Higgins should not have gone to the Árd Fheis.

Deputy Cunningham should restrain himself. He has already spoken.

The Deputy seems to be very upset over the Árd Fheis.

Deputies on the Government Benches get up now and tell the House that the subsidy has nothing to do with it. Surely the Labour members of the Government, particularly those who pretend to have the interests of the rural workers at heart, should at least try to assert their influence, if they have any, with the Government and ask them to put back that subsidy and say to the E.S.B: "Rural electrification is the greatest boon in the rural areas. Will you please remove your fixed charges, so that every family will be in a position to take advantage of rural electrification?" There are people who will never enjoy that amenity now, if the charges are not reduced. Everybody knows that.

Remember, there is an obligation on the Government, irrespective of what Party or Parties constitute it, to ensure that rural electrification is ultimately extended to every district and every hillside. If the charges are going to be doubled, as they are at the moment in some cases, in order to extend rural electrification to certain houses on the fringes of a development area, then there will be thousands of people in the poorest sections of our community and in the most isolated districts who will never enjoy that amenity. Would the Government, even at this stage, not consider reintroducing the subsidy and applying it in the way I suggest? That is all that is embodied in this motion. It is a simple issue and it is one which would redeem at least one of the many pledges the present Government has failed to keep.

I do not quite understand the purpose of introducing a motion such as this at this time, remembering that the people who are supporting it so vigorously now were those who formed the Government when these charges were first imposed and, later still, when these charges were increased. I would rather imagine that responsible Deputies, as all Deputies here should be, or try to be, would regard the E.S.B. as the business-like concern it is and would regard it further as a concern prepared to devote its abilities and its energies towards the provision of electricity for the whole country, given sufficient time in which to do that.

I can sympathise with the view-point of Deputy Cunningham, since I come from a somewhat similar constituency; I can sympathise with his view-point that rural electrification must in time, and in the shortest possible time, be extended, not alone to every townland and village but to every isolated cottage and hamlet in the glen or on the hillside. All that, however, will take time and will involve considerable capital outlay. I do not for a moment accept the argument, and I do not think that those who advance it do so seriously, that the withdrawal of the subsidy of £250,000 in 1955 has anything whatever to do with the imposition of these charges or their continuance. Those charges have been there in part since 1947; they have been at their present rate since 1953.

To test the sincerity of those who support this motion, I should like to know what action was taken, either individually or collectively, in 1947, or between then and 1953, and again in 1953, or since, to move the powers of Industry and Commerce which at that time allowed these charges to operate and to be not alone continued but increased by the E.S.B.? What did Deputy Burke, for instance, do in 1953 when this happened? Did he with the same vigour and with anything like the same anxiety and solicitude for the people of County Dublin approach Deputy Lemass, then Minister for Industry and Commerce, at the time of the imposition of these charges, and say, with the same apparent degree of sincerity that actuated his speech here to-night: "Mr. Minister, you are not being fair to the people of my constituency in County Dublin?"

Now, there has been no change in these charges since this Government came into power and, as the Parliamentary Secretary outlined the position here to-night, I, for one, see nothing wrong economically with the percentage of outlay claimed by the E.S.B. and their present ratio of charges. I concede straightaway that these charges will prevent isolated householders from accepting the amenity of rural electrification at the moment. Let us, however, look at this whole question of rural electrification from a national point of view. Let us not be influenced by the possible channel of voting power in any particular village or townland at the next general election, which may or may not have got the benefit of rural electrification by that time. Let us rather look forward to the time when the E.S.B. will have devoted its time, abilities, energies and capital outlay towards providing the amenity of rural electrification for the people in the more easily accessible areas first; and, when that shall have been done, let us look forward to the time when the further capital outlay necessary will be considerably reduced.

Can we not then look forward to the time when the E.S.B., with its then surplus revenue, will be able to provide the necessary capital for the transformers and other equipment essential for supplying the hamlets and cottages in the isolated districts? In our deliberation on their activities let us rather urge the E.S.B. to pursue their work with the same vigour as they are now pursuing it and with the same competence they are now devoting to that work, so that, in time, with less outlay, they will have surplus revenue to meet the requirements of people who may be denied this amenity for some time. That is all I would ask of this House in its deliberations on this motion. I would ask the mover of the motion to look upon it from that same national point of view and I would ask all the Parties in this House to reach a time of day or night, as the case may be, when a stoppage will be made to trying to seize upon aspects of certain national concerns for Party gains.

Mr. Egan

Practise what you preach.

I am preaching what I always practice. I come from a constituency where it ill becomes the members of the Opposition to say anything about the difference between practising and preaching. I want all the people who have stated here to-night that the withdrawal of the subsidy from the E.S.B. has anything to do with these charges to reconsider what they are asking the people outside to believe and put the matter in its true light, that the withdrawal was rendered possible by surplus revenue acquired by the E.S.B. in part, at least, from increased charges, the subject matter of this discussion.

Do not ask the people to believe that the subsidy withdrawal is in any way connected with these charges. It might be more accurate to say that the restoration of the subsidy, in part or in whole, might enable the board to make more immediate concessions in relation to these charges, but do not try to make the point that the charges are the result of the withdrawal of the subsidy, because they are not.

Nobody made that case.

Several Deputies made it here to-night and Deputy Burke made it very successfully. Let the people in the remote rural areas of this country have peace. I speak for a great number of such areas in my constituency and I know they have no quarrel with rural electrification, or the manner in which it has come. So far are they removed from quarrelling with it that the latest communication I have had from my constituency is one asking me to use my good endeavours to persuade the Government to set up a television station. I would far rather try to further the living conditions of our people than to try to turn a national undertaking into a matter for political aspiration.

The last speaker started off pretty well when he said that the E.S.B. was set up by Act of Parliament to produce electricity and to distribute it on a business-like basis. However, when the Government of the day wanted to confer on the rural areas the benefits which the E.S.B. had conferred on the urbanised areas, the E.S.B. examined the proposition and reported back that they could not popularise these services on the same basis as they had been heretofore supplying electricity and that it would be a most impossible undertaking to attempt to supply electricity to the rural areas as a business proposition on the basis on which they were financed by the Acts passed in this House.

When asked to say what additional finances the national Parliament should give, they indicated that the figure was 50 per cent. That 50 per cent. was granted by this House. A change of Government has since taken place and the extraordinary step has been taken of basing the finances of rural electricity back on the general working of the E.S.B. Now we come to the effect of the elimination of the subsidy on the service. Deputy McGilligan has said that the special charge was so insignificant that he believed that, if it was wiped out, the effect would not be noticed in the E.S.B. accounts. I think that the Parliamentary Secretary should adopt Deputy McGilligan's proposition in that regard. Deputy McGilligan has been Minister for Industry and Commerce and he should know a good deal about the finances of the E.S.B. As Minister for Industry and Commerce, he had intimate contact with the E.S.B. Would it be possible to get the Parliamentary Secretary to deal with the matter on the basis of the proposition put up by the Attorney General?

It was Deputy Lemass said that.

I do not know if he did, but I prefer to make my appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary on the proposition as put forward by the Attorney-General rather than on something Deputy Lemass may have said. If he would accept the Attorney General's proposition that these special charges are so insignificant that they would make no difference to the accounts of the E.S.B., it would put an end to all this argument. The Parliamentary Secretary has said a number of times that they make no difference. I put a question to the Parliamentary Secretary last year with regard to a particular case. It was the case of a consumer who was given the service in an area being supplied and who was then being asked to pay a special charge. Fortunately for him he had the undertaking in writing signed by an official of the E.S.B. to give him the service without a special charge.

The Deputy knows the details of that case as well as anybody else. Two or three other people were going to take the supply and they backed out. If they had taken it, there would not be any attempt to make him pay the special charge, and the Deputy knows that.

The significant thing is that the E.S.B. did not change its operation, until the subsidy had been withdrawn.

I do not think that is the case.

And because the E.S.B. was not too sure that there was not the element of a written contract in the agreement with this particular consumer, they changed their ways. The E.S.B. were forced to re-examine the position of these special charges as a result of the withdrawal of the subsidy.

They were not. The withdrawal of the subsidy had nothing to do with it.

The second proposition of the Attorney General is that, if the subsidy is withdrawn, the E.S.B. will have to deal with a new position in the case of a number of these areas. He said that in certain areas a few spurs have to be left out because special charges have to be made and if these special charges are to be wiped out, the cost of supplying electricity to the people in these spurs will have to be borne by their neighbours in the area.

It would have to be spread through all the rural consumers.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary accept or reject the proposition made by the Attorney General that these spurs would have to be relieved at the expense of their neighbours? Does the Parliamentary Secretary accept that proposition of the Attorney General.

I think the Deputy should have heard me. I gave the full details.

The Parliamentary Secretary wants to have it both ways. He wants to interrupt me and, at the same time, when I put a question to him on his interruption, he will not answer me. It would be just as well if the Parliamentary Secretary would let me make my remarks and if there is anything wrong with them, he can deal with them on some other occasion, if not on this particular motion.

The Attorney General says that if these excepted spurs are now to be brought in on the same basis as their neighbours, they can only be brought in at the expense of their neighbours. If that proposition of the Attorney General is true, then it is an extraordinary attitude on the part of the E.S.B. and on the part of the Government to inflict these charges on the relatively restricted number of consumers in a particular area, when all those who have been supplied in rural Ireland with the electricity supply as a result of rural electrification are not now to be mulcted in the same way as a result of the withdrawal of the subsidy in general. If the Attorney General can make a case to impose upon the limited number of consumers in a particular area the cost in connection with the few excepted spurs, surely, in principle, that must be applied to the general body of rural consumers who have been supplied by means of the subsidy. Now that the subsidy is being withdrawn, they should also be made to bear the cost represented by the 50 per cent. subsidy which had been paid by the Government.

I do not think the Attorney General really meant what he said. I do not believe that he had considered it very deeply and I am certain, if he thinks twice about it, he will know his case will not bear any examination. We stand on the case made by Deputy Lemass. So many of us would not have spoken, and certainly I would not have spoken, if the obvious sense of the proposition put up from this side of the House had been accepted or, if not, if the Parliamentary Secretary at least had said: "We will consider it anew in view of the new position." The position as it is now must certainly strengthen the case. The Parliamentary Secretary represents a constituency that is very largely rural and he should know that rural electrification has been taken by the people in rural Ireland to mean what its name suggests. If the E.S.B. engineers go into a district, the sensible thing to do is to supply all the people in that area and not do what we are told they now propose to do, that is, serve the people who are on the main line of supply and tell the others: "We will finish up the main job, and, next year or the year after, we will come back and serve the rest."

That is not the case.

That is what I have been told several times, in any event.

There has been no change made in the general rules of the E.S.B. There is the same basis of supply all the time.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary tell me now, seeing that he is trying to help me so very much, if when the E.S.B. engineers leave a district and leave a number of spurs unserved in that district, they usually indicate to the people who are at the end of these spurs: "We will come back to you in the sweet by and by"?

They will come around for another canvass to see will any more people in the area take supply.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary allow me to give him a case in which there will not be any new canvass required? I want to give him a case in which 100 per cent. of the consumers of the area have accepted. There are no objectors, no people hanging back, but among the consumers there is a number of spurs, a number of places sticking out that require extra poles and lines. These people are also acceptors, acceptors on the common basis but not on the basis of supplying a spur. Does the Parliamentary Secretary know whether the engineers say to these people: "We cannot supply you now because the financing of the rural electrification scheme does not permit us to do it, but we will come back in the sweet by and by"?

They say exactly what they have always said: "If you want to have the supply, you can have it on the extra special fixed charge." There is no change now; that is what they have always said.

The Parliamentary Secretary again comes plump up against the general proposition when he states that. That is what we have all been arguing about. Deputy Lemass has pointed out that, with the abolition of the subsidy, the general body of rural consumers have got their supply on a basis that was not originally contemplated and because the Government and the E.S.B. are not seeking to recover from these now supplied consumers the cost of half that subsidy, we say to him that he should treat these exceptional spurs in each of the areas on the same basis. Surely there is reason, cogency and substance in that argument?

Deputy McGilligan, the Attorney General, has said that the cost is so small as to be insignificant and to make no difference to the general accounts of the E.S.B. If the Attorney General, who must know something about the E.S.B., is able to tell the Parliament of the nation that this figure is so insignificant, why have all this argument in Dáil Éireann about it? Why not accept the Attorney General's proposition that it is a mere bagatelle—those are his own words? Is Dáil Éireann going to decide, in spite of the fact that the cost represents a mere bagatelle, to inflict a special charge on some of the people living in the remotest and most backward parts of the country?

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 9th February, 1956.
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