Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Feb 1956

Vol. 154 No. 7

Prisons Bill, 1956—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Everett):

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The purpose of the Bill is to provide for the temporary detention of prisoners in lock-ups provided in Garda stations or in any other places, being places designated for the purpose by the Minister for Justice.

There are, at the present time, five prisons open for the reception of prisoners, namely, those at Dublin, Portlaoise, Limerick, Cork and Sligo. For the past ten years the prison population has been falling steadily. In 1946 the daily average number in custody was 683, whereas last year it was only 396. There is accommodation in the five prisons for some 1,520 prisoners and there is, therefore, much more accommodation than is needed.

Accordingly, it is proposed to close the prisons at Cork and Sligo in which the daily average number of prisoners in custody last year was no more than 15 and eight respectively. Nor was this a freak year, as the daily averages have been low in these two prisons for several years. Cork prison will be closed on the 1st April and Sligo prison a little later. There will then be left in the other prisons sufficient accommodation for more than 1,200 prisoners, which is about three times the existing requirements.

On the closing of the two prisons, the prisoners serving sentences in Cork and Sligo will be transferred to Limerick and to Mountjoy, and no problem arises in connection with them. However, provision has now to be made for the detention of unconvicted and unsentenced prisoners while their cases are being tried in courts situated in areas that have hitherto been served by the prisons at Cork and Sligo, and also for the detention of convicted and sentenced prisoners pending removal to prison, since it will be no longer feasible in some cases, because of the distance to be travelled, to convey all such prisoners to a prison without spending a night somewhere en route.

Up to the present, Cork and Sligo prisons have been available for the detention of prisoners awaiting trial and of remand prisoners but, with the closing of these two prisons, this will cease to be the case. Unconvicted and unsentenced prisoners can be temporarily detained in Garda Síochána stations under the law as it stands, but a convicted prisoner must be taken straight to prison. When Sligo prison is closed, such a requirement would be highly inconvenient, say, in a case being tried in Donegal which was not disposed of until a late hour in the evening, since the nearest prison will then be situated in Dublin. For this reason there is included in the Bill a provision to authorise the detention of prisoners in lock-ups pending their removal to prison for a period up to 48 hours. It is necessary to authorise detention not merely in Garda stations but in such lock-ups elsewhere as may be designated by the Minister for Justice because the requisite accommodation may not always be available in a Garda station. It is, in fact, the intention to establish in Sligo a lockup, separate from the Garda station, by suitable conversion of two of the existing prison cottages.

I am sure the House will be satisfied as to the necessity for the Bill and I would ask it to give it favourable consideration.

Mr. Boland:

I agree that something has to be done on the lines suggested here. All I suggest is that proper accommodation should be available, because as far as I know there is no proper accommodation for prisoners in the Garda stations. I do not know very much about Garda stations, but I think that as a rule they have not got very much accommodation. I understand from what the Minister has said that in Sligo, anyway, they are making separate accommodation available. That is an important point. This is the only point I want to make. Otherwise the Bill is necessary.

Mr. Cunningham:

In view of the fact that accommodation must be found in the Garda barracks if this Bill comes into effect, I would suggest that a problem arises. We may have prisoners awaiting trial, or convicted prisoners, and if they have to be sent, say, from County Donegal to Dublin, we may have them thrown into places in which the barracks are entirely unsuitable for prisoners to spend a night or two. Another thing is that in many of our Garda barracks it may not be possible to have 24 hours' supervision. I do not mean supervision exactly, but we have no guarantee that the wants of the prisoners, in the way of food, water and so on, will be properly attended to. This is not something that the Gardaí have been accustomed to, and the danger is that in the case of a county like Donegal, where a prisoner must be prepared for a journey to Dublin, the conditions before starting on that journey may not be good if he has to spend a night, or two nights, or a day and a night, thrown into some back room in a barracks with very little attention by way of food and drink or bed accommodation. That is something which is going to raise many headaches for the Minister and for the Garda authorities themselves.

Mr. O'Hara:

I would like to say that I agree with Deputy Boland on the matter of the unsuitability of some of the Garda stations to hold prisoners. I feel, too, that apart from the amenities that might be provided some of these buildings might not be suitable at all to hold those prisoners. Some of them may at some time or other have pretty tough guys, so to speak, in them, and some of those Garda stations that I know, throughout the length and breadth of the county, are made of corrugated iron and it would not be hard at all for prisoners to escape. That point should not be lost sight of. There is also another point which I would like the Minister to clear up. I would like to know what is to be done for the governors, the wardens and other members of the staffs? Are they going to be retained in the service? It would be very wrong if through this Bill they lost their employment, and I would ask the Minister to consider such people sympathetically.

Going through the estimates of Mayo County Council recently, I found items there concerning the conveyance of prisoners for which the local authority was responsible. I would like the Minister to clarify the position there. Does the passing of this Bill mean that the local authority is going to have to bear further increased charges? That is something that is arousing anxiety in certain quarters, and I would like the Minister to clear up that point as well. If, for instance, in County Mayo we have to send our prisoners to Mountjoy I would like the Minister to tell us if that is going to mean a further burden on the ratepaying public?

Mr. A. Barry:

I think the difficulties referred to can be solved easily enough. The Board of Works can attend to these matters. I do think this Bill is necessary, and the reason is one that should give satisfaction to all of us. It is a remarkable indication of our society, and a very good answer to those at home and abroad who have attempted to decry us. I would ask the Minister, in replying, to indicate whether he has any plan or proposal in regard to the very fine prison building in Cork, which I am glad to see will not be any longer required for the purpose for which it was originally designed.

Mr. McGrath:

Like Deputy Barry I would like to know what the intention of the Minister is with regard to Cork jail, which has a very historic and sentimental interest for the people of Cork, especially any of those who were engaged in the fight for freedom. As the Minister, I am sure, is aware, the graves of many men were within the precincts of the prison until a few years ago, when portion of the jail was transferred to the university college authorities and they took over the care of those graves and the memorial which is over them. I feel that the whole jail should be handed over to the university authorities, because I believe that the whole of that jail is sacred to those who were executed and buried there and those who were executed in Cork Military Barracks and transferred and buried there.

There are men who died on hunger-strike in that prison in 1920. On the outside of the walls of the jail there is a memorial plaque to them. As the graves of those who were executed were handed over to the university, I think it would be right to give charge of the complete block to the university authorities. In my view, they would make very good use of it and respect it and respect those who were detained in that prison in those days. I appeal very strongly to the Minister to do that.

Mr. Desmond:

Like Deputy O'Hara, I am anxious to know how the warders and attendants stand in regard to their employment. In connection with Cork jail, the problem we have in mind is the transportation of prisoners, whether convicted or on remand, from remote parts of the country, such as West and East Cork, as far as Limerick. The time and expense that would be involved might be such as to make it economic to keep Cork jail open. At the same time, we are satisfied with the Minister's statement that the expense of keeping that jail open does not warrant such a step. It is very satisfactory indeed to find that we have reached a stage in our Irish history where we can close jails. That is an advantage not alone to the State but to everyone concerned.

On the question of the handing over of Cork jail, perhaps Deputy Barry did not know it but I am sure Deputy McGrath was aware that some of us on the Cork County Council put down a motion requesting the Government to hand it over. As far as we are concerned, I am glad to say that the university will not get it. I believe I am right in my view that, under the law, they will have to hand it over to the Cork County Council. Surely nobody will suggest that the members of the Cork County Council and the staff concerned would not have as much regard and respect for the memory of the men executed in that jail and for the men whose memory is commemorated on the plaque on the outside walls of the prison as the staff of any university?

Mr. A. Barry:

What would you use it for?

Mr. Desmond:

The Cork County Council will find a suitable use for it. If some authorities in Cork such, for instance, as the university, want it, we may sell it to them. In that way, we would make money which, in turn, could be devoted towards keeping down the rates.

Mr. Allen:

One thing which struck me in connection with the Minister's opening statement was that he did not talk about decentralising the prison, so far as Dublin is concerned. I am surprised that Corkmen have allowed this opportunity to pass and have not claimed it for Cork. It is not too late even yet. Instead of closing Cork jail, would it not be as well to close Mountjoy?

I want to deal with an aspect of this Bill which was mentioned by Deputy O'Hara. I hope the Minister and his advisers are satisfied that there is suitable accommodation for human beings in some of the places where it is proposed to hold prisoners overnight. From what we know and from what we have seen, it is evident that some of these places are nothing but black holes where you would put a drunken person for a few hours until he got sober. Such places are unfit for human habitation. I am surprised that the Minister is satisfied that human beings can decently be accommodated in such places, even though they are prisoners.

Some of these places down the country are black holes of Calcutta. I think the House should not lightly give the Minister authority in this matter. Instead of travelling, say, a long distance in County Donegal at night and keeping Gardaí out of their beds, a prisoner on remand or a convicted prisoner can be put in a black hole in some part of the county. We all know that there is very little respect for convicted prisoners but a good standard is maintained in the prisons to which they are finally committed. I suggest that the power of detention of prisoners overnight in such places is open to abuse—much more so now because it is left to the discretion of the local Gardaí down the country attached to any court to determine whether or not they will make a long journey late at night. Under this Bill, they will have the right to throw a prisoner anywhere they like for the night. I doubt very much that Dáil Éireann should approve of that without assurances from the Minister that a proper standard for human beings will be maintained so that, even though they may be convicted prisoners, they will not be detained overnight in any unsuitable place.

Although this concerns a jail, perhaps the Minister would reconsider the question of decentralising industry and of taking something out of Dublin and establishing it elsewhere, thus reducing the necessity to take people from all parts of the country to Dublin City.

Mr. Cunningham:

Is it intended to house female prisoners in the local black hole? That is a serious question and perhaps the Minister would answer it.

Mr. Everett:

I want to assure Deputy Cunningham, who raised a point about proper food, and so forth, for prisoners who may be on remand that it will be there for them. They will be in the charge of senior officers.

There was accommodation in Sligo for warders and their families. It must be obvious that, as the warders have been residing there for years, the two will now be converted into one and there will be better facilities than before and proper sanitary arrangements for the men.

On the subject of staff, I may say that we have made all arrangements for the staff, in consultation with the officials of my Department. No one will be victimised in any way and work will be found for those who have decided that they would like to be on duty.

I think we must all feel very pleased at the fact that we have now reached a stage in our history where we are in a position to close up some jails. It speaks well for the country.

There has been some comment about Garda stations. If prisoners are left in Garda stations, it will be for only a few hours. Take, for instance, a prisoner on remand whose case has not been decided upon by the District Court or whose case will not be decided until the following day. Then again, his sentence may not be decided until late in the day. Is it not only reasonable that, to cover such circumstances, and also to cover the possibility of really bad weather such as snow and frost and circumstances where transport would not be available, we should provide for the retention of a prisoner on remand for 48 hours?

It is not usual to find Cork Deputies divided on any matter relating to Cork. However, so far as Cork jail is concerned, one Deputy wants it for one purpose and another Deputy wants it for another purpose. Whatever decision will ultimately be arrived at will, I need hardly say, be in the best interests of the Cork people. I agree with Deputy Desmond inasmuch as I am certain that whoever will become the owners of the jail will respect the memory of the men who were on hunger strike there and who were executed there.

Mr. McGrath:

The Minister will not allow the county council to sell it, as Deputy Desmond suggested.

Mr. Desmond:

The two of us can go in there.

Mr. Everett:

If I were to announce to-night what I am going to do, I would have another division between the Cork Deputies. I have not yet decided who is to become the new owner, but I am confident the new owner will keep the place as a fitting memorial to those who suffered and died in it.

Some Deputies have mentioned the inconvenience that may be caused. It is in order to meet that inconvenience that we have decided on this 48-hour period; prisoners on remand could discuss during that interval any matters they might wish to discuss with solicitor or counsel, or meet relatives should they wish to do so. As far as we are concerned, we shall do everything possible to create as little inconvenience as we can. I assure the Deputies who have spoken that their views will be considered very carefully. Due weight will be given to their opinions. As far as the staff are concerned, I can assure Deputies that the staff are quite satisfied with the arrangements made on their behalf.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take the remaining stages now.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.