Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Mar 1956

Vol. 155 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 49—Gaeltacht Services.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Blowick)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £20,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st of March, 1956, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Gaeltacht Services, including Housing Grants.

This Supplementary Estimate has been found necessary to meet increased expenditure on housing grants. The amount provided in the original Estimate for these grants was £80,000 and it is now evident that the total sum required will be approximately £100,000.

There has been a remarkable increase in the building and improvement of dwelling-houses in the Gaeltacht areas over the past two years. At the beginning of the current financial year the number of these cases being dealt with was 989 and at the end of January last it had risen to 1,269 although 338 cases had been completed in the meantime. In addition to that, the amending Act of 1953 provided for grants for special extensions to dwelling-houses and for the provision of piped water and sewerage. The number of cases where a water and sewerage system was being installed increased from 102 at the beginning of the year to 147 at the end of January, 1956, with 37 cases completed in the meantime, while the special extensions increased from 16 to 29 with five cases completed. At the end of January, 1956, the total number of cases being dealt with was 1,445, involving grant payments amounting to £165,680.

It is difficult to give definite reasons for this increase in housing activities since the rate of progress depends to a large extent on the grantees themselves who are paid instalments of the grants according as the work progresses. It is reasonable to assume, however, that the increased improving grants and the provision for sanitation and special extension grants in the 1953 Amending Act, the provision in the General Housing Act of 1952 for the making of supplementary grants by local authorities to grantees under the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts, and the very fine summer of 1955 have all made their contribution to the stimulation of housing activities in the Gaeltacht.

I am quite gratified to seek these extra funds and I feel that the House will welcome my asking them for such laudable purposes.

Seán Ó Loinsigh

Is comhartha maith é go bhfuil breis airgid á chur ar fáil ag an Aire chun na tithe so Ghaeltacht do mhéadú agus chun iad do d'fheabhsú. Tá súil agam go rachaidh an caiteachas seo i méid leis na blianta.

It is a very heartening thought and a heartening fact that the amount of moneys being expended under the Gaeltacht Housing Acts has been increased in the past year. It is very significant that the Minister, having budgeted for an expenditure of £80,000, now has to come and ask the House to sanction expenditure in the current year of £100,000. For many years past we have been listening to olagóns about conditions in the Gaeltacht but at last we can see here a ray of hope that there has been some stimulus given to the people living in the Gaeltacht to help to improve their housing conditions. The Minister has acknowledged the fact that the 1953 Gaeltacht Housing (Amendment) Act has contributed its share to this increase in expenditure, and when the Act was being put through this House in the form of a Bill the Minister, I think, readily acknowledged that it would have this effect.

The position about Gaeltacht Housing is rather a difficult one and it has some very big snags that the Minister did not advert to in introducing this Supplementary Estimate. I do not think he was called upon to do so but nevertheless when that last Bill was going through the House much comment was made on some alleged defects in the existing code. The main comment was that in order to qualify for a grant under the Gaeltacht Housing Act one must already have a house, a house that would be replaced by a new house. It was urged on both sides of the House on that occasion that that obligation should no longer be persisted in, that it would tend towards the better population of the Gaeltacht areas. On the other hand, the official attitude had to be pointed out, that the giving of the benefit of Gaeltacht housing grants to people who did not already have a house would tend to accentuate the congestion problem that undoubtedly exists in Gaeltacht areas.

In introducing that Bill I admitted as candidly as I could that at that stage I could not make up my mind whether that obligation should be removed or not. But having regard to the fact that, in some areas at least, increased employment might be given by new industrial activities, little though they might be, perhaps when such a time comes there would be no further need for the obligation of being the owner of an existing house in order to qualify to receive a Gaeltacht housing grant to build a new one. I do not know whether the problem has become more acute in the past two years or not, but, if it has, I am sure the Minister will readily face up to the problem of discharging this obligation and permitting people who would otherwise qualify for a grant under the Gaeltacht Housing Acts to receive a grant even though they were not the occupiers of a house already.

There is, possibly, at the present time rather an anomaly in that the scheduled areas under the Gaeltacht Housing Acts embrace counties as far removed from the Fíor-Ghaeltacht as Louth and Cavan. These people, under existing legislation, can qualify for the extra benefits that are given under the Gaeltacht Housing Acts provided only that the inspectors are satisfied that Irish is the normal spoken language in the household. The ordinary Housing Act grants are attractive enough for people who are living in areas far removed from the Gaeltacht to encourage them either to reconstruct their existing houses where they need reconstruction or to build new ones and all the money that is being provided in this Estimate and that will be provided in subsequent years by this House on the Estimates for this service should be canalised as much as possible to the Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas in the West.

Perhaps that canalisation of itself will not facilitate to a very large extent the building of more houses or the reconstruction of more houses in the Gaeltacht areas, but I feel the time has come when the area of administration, so to speak, of these Acts should be recast so as to ensure that the maximum benefit will be given to the areas for which they were originally designed, that is, Gaeltacht areas and to the houses in these areas in which the Irish language is spoken as the ordinary daily language.

These are the two main bones of contention, when one comes to speak of Gaeltacht Acts, but it is particularly gratifying that some of the provisions that were introduced in the 1953 Amendment Bill, such as the grants for the provision of piped water and the grants for the provision of extra accommodation for visitors in Gaeltacht areas, have been availed of to a large extent. It was one of the problems that I saw when I had responsibility for Gaeltacht areas in inducing young people from city and urban areas to spend their holidays in the Gaeltacht for the purpose of learning the language that accommodation was often very limited and some of the limited accommodation was not up to the standard one would desire. I hope the progress that has been made in this aspect, first in providing extra accommodation for young people going to the Gaeltacht to learn the language and, secondly, in the installation of water systems in Gaeltacht houses will be maintained and continued and that the holiday in the Gaeltacht, apart from achieving its fundamental objective of promoting the language, will also have the effect of encouraging these people to return and enjoy further holidays in the same surroundings and atmosphere.

It is of doubtful value if young people, having gone one year, as a result of receiving a scholarship from a vocational committee or county board of the G.A.A. and spending a month or so in the Gaeltacht for the purpose of learning the language and having enjoyed a good time, forget not only the fact that they had the holiday but also the language as it was spoken in the Gaeltacht areas.

If this amendment has the effect of encouraging more young people and facilitating more young people to go to the Gaeltacht areas to learn the language and to repeat their visits in adolescence, and perhaps adult years, it will have served a more than useful purpose and will have realised its objective possibly far in excess of what was conceived.

I am very glad that the Minister has had occasion to come to the House to ask for £20,000 extra expenditure for the current year and, having regard to this experience, that the provision he will have to make in future years will be ever-increasing.

I compliment the Minister and his officials on the progress that has been made in the acceleration of improvements in the Gaeltacht housing sphere and I trust that that acceleration will continue until such time as we can be satisfied that people who live in the Gaeltacht and speak our own language there will have as good living accommodation as is being provided in the larger towns and cities.

Fionntan Ó Cuagáin

Ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá ar an airgead seo atá gha sholáthar le haghaidh seirbhísí na Gaeltachta. I, too, would like to comment on certain aspects of the Minister's request for increased moneys for a very good purpose, increased house building in the Gaeltacht areas. I should like to comment briefly on the need for further extension of water supplies in the Gaeltacht. An attempt has been made recently to bring the supply to Aran Islands. Unfortunately, in one case the water was brought to the end of a village and no further. I should like the Minister to note that case because Aran is a tourist centre and in a tourist centre water supply is very necessary.

I should also like to draw the attention of the Minister to the need for additional staff at the Custom House in Galway with a view to expediting the payments of grants. Tribute, indeed, is due to the small staff that are there for the manner in which they handle the work.

Gearóid Mac Parthaláin

Is maith liomsa cuidiú leis an gcaint a rinne an Teachta Ó Loingsigh faoin bhfeabhas atá ar an tseirbhís seo, nó an feabhas atá ar an éileamh atá sa nGaeltacht ar an tseirbhís. Maidir le soláthair uisce, ní doigh liom go dtagann sé sin faoi scáth an Aire seo. Sin é an rud ar thagair an Teachta Ó Cuagáin dó. Soláthar poiblí atá i gceist aige agus tagann sé sin faoi scáth na Comhairle Contae agus tá siad ag breathnú ina dhiaidh istigh in Arainn, ach aontaím go dteastaíonn a leithéid i gcaoi go mbeidh ar chumas na ndaoine a thagas faoi scáth Sheirbhísí na Gaeltachta baint leis agus uisce a fháil istigh sna tithe.

Chím annseo go bhfuil an tAire ag cur cheiste i dtaobh an údair atá leis an bhfás atá ar éileamh deontas tithíochta agus tugann sé féin freagra chomh fada is eol dó ar a cheist féin; ach tá rud eile ann agus ní miste, b'fhéidir, tagairt a dhéanamh dó.

Chuir mé féin síos air anuiridh nuair bhí Meastachán Seirbhísí na Gaeltachta os comhair na Dála agus thagair mé do cheist na dtithe agus dúirt mé go raibh contúirt ann gur gearr go gcuirfeadh Comhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe deireadh le deontais fhorlíontacha. Ar ndóigh, tugadh fógra go hoifigiúil i nGaillimh go mb'fhéidir go dtarlódh sé sin agus scaipmuid féin, Teachtaí Dála agus Comhairleoirí Conndae, scaipmuid an scéal ar fud na gcontaethe i measc na ndaoine a bhí ag braith ar chur isteach ar dheontais tithe agus spreagadh iad faoi dhul ar aghaidh leis na h-iarratais. Bhí faitíos orthu go stopfaí na deontais fhorlíontacha agus chuireadar deis orthu féin dul ar aghaidh leis an obair a bhí fágtha ar an méar fhada acu le tamall roimhe sin agus sin cúis anspeisialta ar fad le go raibh tuille daoine ag cur isteach ar na deontais seo le tamall anuas.

Do rinneadh tagairt faoi an Acht Leasuithe, 1953, chun deontas a thabhairt do dhaoine sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht le haghaidh seomra sa bhreis ar chur lena dtithe. Bhí rud den tsaghas sin san chéad Acht Cuartaíochta a tháinig i bhfeidhm roimh an cogadh ach níos tugadh chun críche ariamh é. Ní dhearna an Bord Cuartaíochta rud ar bith faoi agus bhíomar ag súil go dtiocfadh sé i bhfeidhm i bhfad roimhe seo. Slí mhaith chun airgead a thabhairt isteach sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht a bhí ins na hiarrachtai chun cuairteoirí a mhealladh isteach ann sa samhradh. Deanann sé sin dhá rud—tugann sé tuilleadh daoine ag scaipead airgid sa Ghaeltacht agus ag foghluim teangan. Le gairid do léigh mé scéal i gceann de na páipéirí Gaeilge ag tabhairt tuairisc faoi léacht a thug duine as an bhFíor-Ghaeltacht. Dubhairt an fear sin gur féidir i bhfad níos mó a dhéanamh ar an gcaoi seo do leas a Gaeltachta agus ceapaimse go bhfuil a lán den fhírinne aige.

Is mór an truaigh nár ghlac an tAire leis an gcomhairle a tugadh dó sa Teach seo chun deontais a thabhairt le tithe do dhéanamh ar ghabhaltais nach bhfuil aon sórt tí orra cheana. Do rinne an Teachta Seán Ó Loingsigh tagairt don rud céana, i dtaobh cás an fhir a bhfuil gabháltas talún aige gan aon teach sa Gaeltacht—gur chóir go mbeadh deontas ar fáil ag an bhfear sin chun teach a chur suas. Do rinne mé féin tagairt don rud céanna nuair a tháinig an tAire isteach anseo don chéad uair mar Aire. Do mhínigh mé dó an uair sin cás amháin a cuireadh os mo chomhair. Do chuir an tAire ceist orm faoi agus dúairt sé go raibh na daoine i gceist i dteideal deontas tí a fháil. Dúairt mise nach raibh an cás amhlaidh mar nach raibh sean-teach ar an ngabháltas ach d'fhreagair an tAire go mbreathnódh sé isteach sa gceist ach na miontuairiscí a bheith os a chomhair. Dúairt sé go raibh an duine sin i dteideal deontas do réir an dlí mar bhí sé.

Níl mé ag caint tré mo hata anois mar tá an scéal sin breactha síos i dTuairiscí an Tí seo, agus taispeanann sé gur féidir le Aire Rialtais botún a dhéanamh nuair atá sé ag caint faoi nithe a bhaineas lena Roinn féin. Bhí orm an uair sin glacadh leis na rudaí a dúairt an tAire mar b'aige a bhí an chumhacht. Gan leasuithe san Acht, ní bheadh aon duine nach raibh sean-teach aige i dteideal deontas. Ceapaimse gur rud amaideach é sin. Ba cheart go mbeadh cuidiú agus cabhair le fáil ag duine a dheannódh gabháltas talún sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht nach bhfuil sean-teach air cheana nó a dhéanfadh gabhaltas ar Phortach nó criathrach le allus a ghruadh. Is é mo thuairimse go mba cheart deontas a chur ar fáil do dhuine mar sin chun teach nua a chur suas.

Tá a fhios agam nach bhfuil muid ag tabhairt don Aire anois ach £20,000 agus caithfidh mé buíochas a ghlacadh leat, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, mar gheall ar an gcead a thug tú dhom an aguisín seo a thabhairt isteach. Chomh maith leis na Teachtaí eile, molaim rath ar an obair seo. Tá áthas mór orm go bhfuil obair ar siúl a chuireas deis agus caoi ar na títhe sa Ghaeltacht agus a mheallas níos mó daoine isteach sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht gach samhradh.

Mr. Flynn

I appreciate the Minister's proposal to extend the Housing Acts in the Gaeltacht. I am interested in the remarks in regard to water supply schemes in Gaeltacht districts and I would like to get further information if it is possible. Would the schemes envisaged by the Minister be independent schemes carried on through grants made available direct from the Department or would the Minister's Department co-operate with the local authorities in operating water supply schemes in Gaeltacht districts? I have in mind areas in south Kerry where Kerry County Council are contemplating carrying out schemes in these Gaeltacht districts but I am aware also that we would require assistance from the Department. Would it be possible in connection with these schemes that the Department could co-operate with the local bodies and arrange pro rata for the cost of the schemes? It would be an ideal system if the County Council and the Minister's Department could, through their joint efforts, initiate the schemes I have referred to and put them into operation in the Gaeltacht districts.

I mention that because even with the best intentions the local authority would not be able, over a period of years, to cope with all the requirements of the Gaeltacht with regard to water supply schemes, but if the Department could co-operate and make it possible to supplement the moneys available to the local authority for that type of work I think it would be a great step forward. If the Minister could see his way to meet the people in that way I would be glad if he would elaborate on the point when replying.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am afraid there is nothing in the Supplementary Estimate about water—it deals exclusively with housing.

Mr. Flynn

I know; I just mentioned it in passing.

Tomás Ó hEadhra

Is deas an rud é a fheiceál go bhfuil Teactí ar gach taobh an Tigh ar aon-intinn mar gheall ar an gceist seo. Ceist anthábhactach í, ceist na Gaelthachta, agus sílim gur ceart é sin. Mar adúirt mé cheana, sílim go bhfuil tuilte ag na daoine atá ina gcónaí sa Gaelthacht gach rud is féidir leis an dTeach seo a thabhairt dóibh.

I am glad indeed to hear that Deputies on both sides are of one mind on this subject. The people who live in the Gaeltacht areas in the main are far removed from the city and from many amenities that people in other areas enjoy. They have preserved the Gaelic language and the Gaelic culture and they are entitled to any special consideration that this House might afford to them. It is pleasing, therefore, that the Minister has come along this evening and has asked for an additional £20,000 for housing purposes.

I would like to offer this particular little bit of criticism with regard to the erection of houses in Gaeltacht areas. Generally speaking, we find that most of the houses that are erected in the Gaeltacht are, shall I say, stereotyped and mainly of the one pattern. If people who are erecting houses or proposing to erect houses could be encouraged to vary the type of house in that area I think it would be very desirable. It is a well-known fact that many tourists from abroad visit these areas as a matter of interest and I think it would be most desirable as I said already, if the style of house could be varied somewhat. I think the housing officers could play a big part in that regard but the lead should come from the top, I think, from the Minister's office.

Briefly, on the question of the provision of water and other amenities, I would like to say these should be encouraged all round. I think most people in the Gaeltacht areas have already made provision for water to their homes—I think the Department is very insistent on that. As I said at the outset, it is due to those people to consider the many difficulties they have to contend with because of their small, uneconomic holdings and to consider, as Deputy Bartley said, that these people have to reclaim land to try to eke out a livelihood on poor holdings and many of them have to emigrate to England and America. I think it is only right and proper that every encouragement that could be offered should be offered to them. I am glad that the Minister felt prevailed on to come into this House with this Estimate.

Seosamh Ó Braonáin

Ba mhaith liom cúpla focla a rá ar an gceist seo, agus bhéarfaidh mé mo gheall duit gur caint ghearr a dhéanfas mé. Aontaím le gach focal a dúirt an Teachta Mac Phartláin cupla noiméad ó shoin.

I would like to deal mainly with the portion of the last Act which compels the applicant for a grant under Gaeltacht Services to have an existing house in the Gaeltacht. That was referred to by Deputy Jack Lynch at the time the legislation was going through the House as being a moot point but I do not think that any doubt exists now in the minds of Deputies but that that position should be remedied. I have in mind people who live in the Gaeltacht and look for a Gaeltacht grant and are refused because they cannot show that they are replacing an existing hovel. However, they can apply for a local government grant and be successful in getting it but they are then penalised by the amount of the difference between the two grants. I think that Deputies from all sides of the House would support the Minister in any amendments he may introduce to ensure that that anomaly is removed.

I may say that this regulation has not been very rigidly enforced but I have seen cases of people born and reared in the Gaeltacht who subsequently found employment elsewhere and when they retired and desired to come back and live in their retirement in their native district and applied for the Gaeltacht grant to provide themselves with a little bungalow they were refused. They had to go for the local government grant which is much less.

We have also the case, referred to by Deputy Bartley, of a man whose son wished to settle down in the Gaeltacht but who wished for the time being to leave the house to his parents. To my own knowledge cases of that kind have succeeded in getting the grant but I also know of cases which have been turned down and that proves that all is not well with the present legislation.

Everybody will be in agreement that more money has to be provided for this most useful service. It is a most useful service for the people in the Gaeltacht and its usefulness is proved by the fact that it is being availed of to a great extent.

The installation of water is a very commendable scheme which might be further developed. Most Gaeltacht areas are blessed with scenic beauties and the people who come there to study the language could combine their visits with a holiday if suitable accommodation were available in the vicinity of the colleges. Perhaps the new Minister for the Gaeltacht will find that a suitable line to pursue if grants are more readily available. I think it is not completely out of order to suggest that the success of that scheme is an indication that it is the right direction in which to move. I have mentioned the case in which many people could combine their language studies with a real summer holiday in the midst of the scenic beauties which lie to a large extent along the coast. These places are very suitable for summer holidays but for the fact that the proper accommodation is not available. One of the things that prevent people from taking that type of holiday is that they are working all the year round and they do not feel equal to going to the Gaeltacht to study the language on their holidays. If the proper accommodation were available they could combine their studies and their holidays.

Those are the two points I wish to mention. While we all welcome the fact that it is necessary to provide extra money as a result of more applications being made, I think the obstacle which prevents many people from taking advantage of the Gaeltacht grants is the fact that an old house must be replaced by a new building. I do not think it should be open to everybody to get a Gaeltacht grant in order to build a house at the seaside but we could have legislation drafted to provide for those who have their roots in the Gaeltacht areas, people who were born there and whose parents were born there. Any provision for that type of person would have the full support of the House and would find no obstacle in going through.

Mr. Blowick

Just 15 months ago when the Estimate was being prepared we thought that £80,000 under subhead F was quite sufficient to meet the demands for new housing grants and improvement grants. In fact that figure of £80,000 has fallen very short, so much so that the £20,000 I am asking the House for now will be fully expended by the end of this month. It is, as all the Deputies who have spoken said, a pleasant thing to spend money for the Gaeltacht at any time. It is the one particular area for which the Dáil has never cavilled at the expenditure of money. All the speakers in the debate made particular reference to the fact that, under a provision of the earliest Gaeltacht Housing Act an applicant in order to qualify for a grant must replace an old house by a new one. For the information of Deputies that goes back to Section 3 of the 1929 Act, the original Act.

Sub-section (1) reads:—

"Where, in the opinion of the Minister, a dwelling-house in the Gaeltacht is wholly unsuitable for the proper and healthy accommodation of the occupier thereof and his family, the Minister may, subject to the provisions of this Act and regulations made by the Minister thereunder, make to the occupier of such dwelling-house a grant ... towards the erection, on the site of such dwelling-house or on another site, of a new dwelling-house in substitution for such first-mentioned dwelling-house."

The strange thing is that while there was a number of amending Acts passed since, one in 1931, one in 1934, one in 1939, one in 1949, and again in 1953—none of them repealed that section. I fully agree with the Deputies who said that whatever danger there may have been in 1929, that danger is now passed. While I am not promising to bring in amending legislation in ease of the provisions of that section I can assure the Deputies, particularly those who are interested in the Gaeltacht, that that provision will be stretched to the very limit as far as I am concerned, even to the point of breaking the law. I fully agree with the Deputies who said that the provisions of that section are a little bit too stringent. It is too stringent and the danger the Minister of the day saw when he put in that provision is now past. If the farmer's son that Deputy Bartley mentioned gets married—he being an Irish speaker— to an Irish-speaking wife, I think it is a pity he should not get a little bit of encouragement by way of grants under the Gaeltacht Housing Act to help him settle down in the Gaeltacht. I do not think that would create a slum. Indeed, there is such a flight from the land the danger is that the Gaeltacht will become depopulated.

Most Deputies mentioned water. I think Deputy Flynn, of Kerry, confused public water supply with the fact that there is a grant of £50 available to anybody building a new house or reconditioning an old one for water and sanitation. I think that has been confused with the work that normally falls to local authorities in providing water supplies for towns and villages. We do not do that and I do not hold out any hope that the Gaeltacht Services Division of the Department of Lands will ever engage in that work. It is outside their sphere. It comes more properly under the jurisdiction of the particular local authority. The provision of water in towns and villages is a matter for the local authority and we will leave it to them.

Deputy O'Hara referred to the fact that the houses in the Gaeltacht are a little bit stereotyped. That is true, but we have no objection to a little variety being provided. As a matter of fact, I would welcome a little bit of variety in houses in the Gaeltacht areas. If people come along with an improved plan or one for a more picturesque dwelling-house, we will welcome it. The fact that we give a grant towards the house does not mean that we insist on a particular type of house. If anyone building a house goes to the trouble of getting a better plan, or an improved plan, we will be only too glad to sanction it. I wish to thank the Deputies who have spoken so nicely on this Estimate.

Vote put and agreed to.

Supplementary Estimates reported and agreed to.