In discussing the Vote for the Department of Defence, I think we are faced with this question: are we condemned for ever to live in a state where we hear of nothing but wars, approaching wars and preparation for wars? The attitude of the Labour Party for the past six or seven years to this Vote is well known. Not alone did members of the Opposition Party not agree with the approach of Labour Deputies to this Vote, but, in particular, one Opposition Deputy—he will probably speak on this Estimate— childishly, in my opinion, went so far as to try to suggest that the opposition of the Labour Party to the financial commitments in relation to the Estimate for the Department of Defence meant that not alone were the Labour Party advocating a reduction in the Army but also leaving the country open to invasion. We consider that such an approach is somewhat outmoded and outdated. Whether or not that member will continue to adopt that attitude in relation to our remarks on this Vote I do not know and it does not make any difference to us.
We were recently admitted to membership of the U.N.O. We take it for granted that the main factor governing the attitude of this world organisation is or should be an approach towards world peace. In passing, I might refer to the wise remarks of the Taoiseach quite recently when he said that he, his Government and this Dáil hoped that membership of this organisation would mean, in regard to the international situation at the present time, that we would have an opportunity of offering something of far more value than would-be improvements in world armaments, and all that goes with that. If our membership gives us an opportunity of letting the whole world know that we stand for peace and not for war, then I believe the Labour Party are justified in this House in drawing particular attention to the wastage which we believe to be apparent year after year, so far as this Vote is concerned.
Deputy Traynor said, and rightly so, that this small country has given many nations leaders of their navies. We can claim that Irishmen built up navies on the American continent Furthermore, we are all aware of the part Irishmen played in the past in relation to a navy just across the water from us. However, as far away as Japan, it is well realised and understood that Irishmen gave naval leadership. The tragedy, however—and I think Deputy Traynor must admit it— is that, when we wanted leadership for our Navy in 1946-47, Irishmen were not suited. The Minister must know that what applied then still applies and the remarks I made in relationship to our Navy last year still stand as correct. Mention has been made of the reduction of over £40,000 for the Navy. I do not believe that that reduction is going to make any difference in relation to the problems facing that arm of our Defence Forces.
As I tried to explain here last year, there has been, over a large number of years, unwanted and uncalled for waste in this section in this Vote, and I still say to the Minister that the boats purchased from foreign powers could not be described as anything but two old hulks. I do not know who is responsible for their purchase—whether it was the present Minister or his predecessor—but it was an example of the usual squandermania that has been so apparent in relation to some sections of this Department.
Furthermore, when we consider the work of Irishmen in building up the navies of other countries, and when we consider that seven or eight years ago in our Irish Navy, we had to approach the Navy personnel of another country to teach table manners, or what they call etiquette, to our young Irish recruits, I think it was a disgrace. It seems to me fantastic that our naval arm should be treated in such a manner.
Deputy Traynor spoke about the necessity of keeping up the amount of money to be made available for the sending abroad of Army or Navy personnel in order to improve their education by studying the installations of other countries. The less humbug we have about that the better for ourselves, because, if you send a young Irishman on board a British battleship, he will never again want to come back to our own small Navy. Too many Irishmen have been put in the position of going aboard the battleships of British and other continental countries. I do say that the Navy at the present time is, in my opinion, a dead weight.
Although I got little satisfaction 12 months ago when I mentioned what I considered was wrong with our Navy, I still say that the sooner we adopt a proper outlook in relation to the overall expenditure on the Navy and the sooner we are prepared to give to the young men in that Navy, who have prepared themselves for it, opportunities of leadership, the better it will be for ourselves.
One part of Deputy Traynor's speech last night appeared to me to be quite important. He mentioned that, in relation to the purchase of the necessary equipment for the Army, some of the people connected with the Department were sent to the Continent and told to buy what they considered best. They got the opportunity of travelling from one country to another, and, during that tour of inspection, they were told to purchase roughly £2,000,000 worth of equipment. I wonder was that a wise thing to do? I hope that some of the purchases made by these men will not turn out to be anything like the fiascos which some of the purchases made by the Army in the past turned out to be. I wonder if it is true that we have, in Dublin and in the Curragh, at the present time, many items which may have been bought under the heading of equipment which will stand forever as a monument to the purchase of antiquated items from other countries.
It has been so in the past, and if we are to continue to do this, I want to say that it is a shortsighted policy. We all know that there are people in this Department, as there are in other Departments, who wish to be thrifty in regard to other Departments, but who desire to see the most modern techniques and equipment made available to their own Department.
We of the Labour Party believe that there is an opportunity for a reduction in this Vote, but there is one item which was mentioned by Deputy Traynor, and in this I agree with him, that is the reduction in the amount for barrack maintenance. I do not agree that there should be such a reduction. I do not say that we should provide extra money for barrack maintenance in order to keep in employment men who may have a claim on us in relation to employment. I do consider that, in relation to the maintenance of barracks, there is necessity to provide the money, because, in many of these barracks at present, owing to the shortsighted policy of failing to provide the necessary money, we have men living in very bad conditions.
Deputy Corry mentioned last night the necessity for the building of houses for Army personnel, and the Minister said that a certain number of houses were to be built in the Curragh. Why must we, in Cork at any rate, have to face the problem year after year of trying to house members of the armed forces, men who are urgently in need of houses? These men have a right to secure the tenancy of houses, but it is left to the Cork County Council to provide them when the Department of Defence have failed in their responsibility to their own men.
Deputy Traynor last night concentrated on the need for a larger Army. It is a bit of a joke to suggest a larger Army when little or no attempt is being made to house the members who at the present time are living under such bad conditions. In these areas adjacent to Cork City, Ballincollig and elsewhere, we have to provide council houses for these men, and, between the State and the local authorities, the extra money must be provided to make up the economic rent. It is not fair that the Department of Defence should, year after year, put us in that position. If some of the money being spent in other directions were spent in building decent houses for the present members of the Army, with their wives and young families, who are condemned to live in the conditions I have mentioned, it would be far better spent. There would be much more peace and happiness where these individuals are concerned, if that were done, than will result from the expenditure of money in the other directions in which it is being undertaken at present.
If we question the various ways in which money may be spent in relation to this Vote we can, of course, be branded as troublemakers, but I do not mind. It is extraordinary for any member of this House or, indeed, for the general public who have occasion to travel in the south to see so often the large fleets of Army lorries travelling around the country from one post to another with nothing in them in the way of materials or anything else, but having at the back of the lorry the letter "L", telling you that there is a man learning to drive. It is about time that the squandering that is being done in respect of petrol for that purpose was stopped.