Deputy Lemass, on the subject matter of Question No. 8 on to-day's Order Paper.
Private Members' Business. - Adjournment Debate—Bord na Móna Directors.
Mr. Lemass
I decided to raise on the adjournment of the Dáil the replies given by the Minister to me to questions which I addressed to him concerning recent developments in Bord na Móna. I tabled these questions because of certain reports I received. I was not inclined to credit these reports, even though they appeared to be substantiated, but I thought it desirable that the position should be clarified by addressing these questions to the Minister. I was surprised to find, from the Minister's replies that the reports were quite correct.
At a time when Bord na Móna is cutting down the scale of its activities, at a time when it finds it is necessary to dispense with the services of a number of its trained technical staff, the Government has decided to put upon the board the responsibility of remunerating two new directors appointed to the board by the Government—individuals whose qualifications for membership of that particular board are not very obvious.
The Minister, during the course of our exchanges to-day, said that the cutting-down of Bord na Móna's activities was consequential on the curtailment of the E.S.B. development programme. He repeated what he had said previously—that the E.S.B. had been bull-dozed by me into embarking upon a development programme in excess of the country's requirements. That statement is not true. I am quite certain the Minister was not told by the E.S.B., apart from anything they may have said regarding the four small Western stations to be fired by hand-won turf, that they were compelled by me to include in the new generation programme, which was published to the Dáil in 1954, any generation station which, in the circumstances of that year, they did not consider to be necessary having regard to the trend of the demand for electric power.
I do not believe that, based upon the circumstances of 1954, the generation programme published then was excessive. It is true that circumstances have changed since. There has been, according to the report of the E.S.B., an unexplained falling-off in the demand for electric power. There has been a slowing-down, if not a complete cessation, of industrial expansion and we have learned that there is to be a curtailment of rural electrical development. Unless the Minister has in mind the possibility of provoking an even greater industrial slump than he has yet accomplished, the generation programme prepared in 1954 is still not excessive of the country's needs.
Even if what the Minister said were true—even if circumstances have shown that the new generation programme of the E.S.B. published in 1954 now exceeds the estimated growth in the demand for current—I still contend, and I want to urge this point of view very strongly on the Government, that it is madness to curtail that programme which is based entirely upon the utilisation of native sources of fuel.
The Deputy seems to be travelling a bit far from the question.
Mr. Lemass
I will get back, if the Chair will give me a little time. The explanation given for the dismissal of a number of the board's technical staff and the need to strengthen the board by, as it was described, appointing new directors was this problem created for the board by the curtailment of the E.S.B. programme. I say that there was not in that programme a single station which was not designed to use native sources of power, either water power or turf. If that programme had been allowed to proceed as planned and if what the Minister says regarding the dimensions of the programme is correct, or if changes in the demand for power should make that programme in any way excessive, it would still be good national policy to proceed with it. It might mean that, for a time, existing stations which use only imported coal or imported oil would have to be worked to less than their full capacity or close down for a time——
Surely the Deputy has travelled far——
Mr. Lemass
I am raising the question of the dismissal of a number of——
No. I allowed the Deputy to raise the subject matter of Question No. 8.
Mr. Lemass
The Chair is entitled to decide but, before 8.30 p.m., in accordance with Standing Orders, I conveyed to your office my desire to raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of two questions. I was given to understand that that had been accepted.
No. The information I conveyed to the Deputy, and the decision I reached in respect of the two question, was that he could raise the subject matter of Question No. 8. My decision was that the control of staff is not the responsibility of the Minister.
Mr. Lemass
I shall have to base these arguments on the contention that the existing board has in some way mismanaged the conduct of the affairs of the undertaking and has to be strengthened. I should like, however, if the Chair will allow me, to put this point. We have in the bogs of Ireland, for the development of which this board is responsible, two main problems, not one. Underneath these bogs there is productive land, land which is capable of being utilised for agricultural purposes or afforestation purposes provided we can get the peat off it. It would be an impossible task for this country, with its resources, merely to get the peat off the land so that the land would be available for production. It was, consequently, a matter of tremendous moment for this country when it was shown to be technically possible to utilise that peat as fuel for power stations.
I must ask the Deputy to come to the question he asked and deal with the appointment of the new directors.
Mr. Lemass
And the Government's policy in relation to it.
We are dealing with Question No. 8 which concerns the appointment of two additional directors; the dates of their appointment; the names, addresses, occupations and qualifications of the persons appointed and the reasons for enlarging the board.
Mr. Lemass
I am dealing with the functions of Bord na Móna which surely bear on the reasons for the appointment of the directors.
I allowed the Deputy a good deal of latitude. He must surely agree with that.
Mr. Lemass
If new directors are to be appointed to Bord na Móna, they should be people equipped and competent to deal with the problems the board is facing. One of the problems which the board is facing is the curtailment of the programme of the E.S.B. and the consequent limitation of the board's own activities in bog development. I am urging that the Government should not permit that curtailment to take place because it is going to have consequences of the utmost gravity for this country.
I suppose every Deputy in the House has followed with interest the recent reports on the development of atomic power and the utilization of atomic energy for the generation of electricity. It is certain that in a period of 15 or 20 years the techniques now being developed will have reached the stage where the most economical method of producing electricity will be through atomic energy. It will not be——
The Deputy should come to the terms of his question. He has travelled very far.
Mr. Lemass
I am saying that it will not then be possible for Bord na Móna to take up the work that is now being postponed. It will mean that prospects——
The Deputy should deal with the appointment of the two directors and the reason for their appointment.
Mr. Lemass
I want to put this on record. I communicated to the Chair's office, in accordance with Standing Orders, my desire to raise a specific matter on the Adjournment, the appointment of two new directors and the dismissal of certain staff.
The Deputy said he would raise the subject matter of two questions, one of which was that asked to-day. Afterwards, I was told the Deputy desired to raise the subject matter of another question. I examined both questions and decided that the Minister has not any responsibility for the dismissals.
Mr. Lemass
I am accepting that. The Minister is responsible for the decision to appoint two new directors at a time when the board is curtailing its activities.
The Deputy said that and I did not stop him. A résumé on the whole procedure of the administration of Bord na Móna does not arise.
Mr. Lemass
Can I urge upon the Minister that he should make sense out of the appointment of two directors by not allowing the board's activities to be curtailed? However, I am not going to tangle with the Chair. I do urge upon the Government that there is a period of 15 to 20 years at the most during which we can develop our bogs for power purposes. That is what Bord na Móna was established for and if their activities are to be curtailed now, this country will pay for it for a century hence.
The Deputy is going along the same line.
Mr. Lemass
I am dealing with the appointment of two new directors.
The Deputy did not appoint them.
Mr. Lemass
The Minister implies that the existing directors of Bord na Móna were political pals of mine. I want to say quite definitely that none of them so far as I know was ever involved in political activities in the Party sense. They certainly were not appointed for any such reason. They were, each of them, people who had previous experience in this problem of turf development. They had been associated with the old Turf Development Board and, indeed, it was their wisdom, helped by the experience they had acquired on the old board, which led to this great development of turf production through mechanical means.
I am not aware of the political opinions of some members of the board and I certainly never asked their political opinions. The Minister's interjection implies, however, that there need be no doubt as to why these two new appointments have been made, to balance up political influences on the board. I think that is a completely wrong approach to the responsibilities which were given to him when he was appointed Minister for Industry and Commerce.
The Minister also said in an interjection that I see the members of the board as often as he does. I want to put on record that I have never met Bord na Móna since I ceased to be Minister. I have never had a discussion with any single member of the board regarding the affairs of the board since I ceased to be Minister. If the Minister is under the impression that I am receiving any information concerning Bord na Móna from any member of the board, I want to correct that impression completely. They are, so far as I know, all exceedingly honourable men who certainly would not abuse their positions in the slightest, nor would I for a moment consider asking them to give me information concerning the affairs of Bord na Móna which they had available to them by reason of their membership of the board.
The Minister suggested that the board had in some way mismanaged their affairs. These are the same individuals who have been in charge of Bord na Móna since its initiation. It is one of the most successful enterprises ever started in this State and the whole credit for its success is due to these individuals.
Two new directors have been appointed. I said both were solicitors. I was wrong. One is a solicitor and the other I know was an election agent for the Minister for Local Government. I thought he was a solicitor. I was wrong. I have tried to find out from those acquainted with him what his work is. I do not know and they do not know. I asked the Minister in the question to state what the occupations of the two persons appointed were and he did not answer that part of the question. From such inquiries as I have made, not one of them has ever had the slightest association with turf development activities, nor possesses any qualification which would, in the circumstances of this day, when the activities of Bord na Móna are being curtailed, when its staff is being reduced and competent technical men being paid off, justify his appointment.
It is said that whom the gods wish to destroy they first drive mad. This is the maddest thing the Government did. What are they trying to do? Do they not realise that this action of theirs will demoralise the whole organisation of Bord na Móna? There is not an individual employed by it who is not commenting adversely on a situation in which competent technical people are being dismissed while people are being appointed because the Minister thinks the members of the board are political pals of mine. I think the Minister has abused his powers and functions. This is one of the most disgraceful things they have done. I suggest that he should forthwith so arrange the programme of Bord na Móna that at least these dismissals will not be associated with these appointments.
The more I hear Deputy Lemass talking in this House, the more I admire the reservoir of political brazenness upon which he can draw from time to time. Anybody listening to Deputy Lemass would never imagine that there was a political pal in one case whom he tried to plant on a tourist board in this country. Because the chairman of the board said: "We do not want him; we do not think he has any contribution to make," Deputy Lemass set up a Tourist Publicity Board and paid his friend a salary of £1,000 a year.
Mr. Lemass
If this is going to be in order, I should not have been ruled out of order. I am not going to let a dead man be blackguarded by the Minister. He gave much better national service than the Minister ever gave.
Take your medicine now.
This is the rowdyism now.
What happened the Tourist Board, or I.T.A., or whatever the correct title may be, has no relevancy whatever to this.
Mr. Lemass
Let the dead rest anyway.
The Deputy is a gentleman who appears here this evening in a white sheet, with unstained hands and unsoiled mind. Nobody who knows the machinations of the Deputy, and the things he was capable of doing and the things he did do, could be misled by the Deputy's attempt to present himself here in a white mantle, as if he were a simple soul.
What are the facts of this case? The Turf Development Act, 1946, provided for a board of seven people. Deputy Lemass made proposals to the board; he said: "Here are five names; here are my five names for five of the particular posts and we will fill the other two posts later." These five members whom I recently appointed, are the people appointed by Deputy Lemass in 1946, and who were reappointed later. Now, the House can have its own sense of humour out of the scrupulousness which Deputy Lemass displayed in making political appointments. Have a look at the names of the members of the board and see if they have ever been known or noted for their support of any Party in this House other than Fianna Fáil. I am not denying their right to be members of a political Party, but I am denying the right of Deputy Lemass to make appointments to State-sponsored bodies while in the Government and then to expect this Government to carry his political appointments when he is in opposition. That is not going to happen and the sooner Deputy Lemass realises it, the better.
We have filled the seven posts which were provided for on the board. Deputy Lemass promised to do it in 1946; we are doing it now in 1956. Of course, behind all this artificial indignation this evening of Deputy Lemass is his innate belief that you cannot get a good director unless he, or some other Fianna Fáil Minister appoints him.
It looks like it.
This is an effort by the Fianna Fáil Party to hold on to the things which they did during their period of office. We have appointed to this board two competent people whose record is there for each and every one of the members of the House to see.
Mr. Lemass
Where?
The Deputy can find it, if he wants to see it. He was able to find an untruth to-day when he said both were solicitors. Now he admits that he was 50 per cent. wrong.
Mr. Lemass
What are their occupations? Answer my question.
Deputy Lemass took 20 minutes to speak and now he wants to use another five minutes with interruptions. The position of the E.S.B.—we had a lot of talk about it and Bord na Móna—is that the E.S.B. told me that a White Paper in 1953-54 had been forced on them and in which they themselves did not believe.
Mr. Lemass
I do not believe that.
I am telling you now and I will produce the file in this House, if you ask me. I will quote from that document if you ask me to put it on the Table of the House. I will quote from a letter written to you as Minister for Industry and Commerce by the Minister for Finance at the time, saying he did not believe your estimates.
Mr. Lemass
The E.S.B. did not say that.
And the E.S.B. did not believe them, either.
Mr. Lemass
The E.S.B. did not say that.
My answer to that was that since they believed they were over-planted by Deputy Lemass, they should have come to us earlier and said: "Look here; we are over-planted by the White Paper of 1954. We are being asked to put in more plant than we need. We cannot use the plant to-day, and with the plant that we already have in operation and the plant in sight, we will not be able to use it even by 1960-61." The E.S.B. to-day is substantially over-planted. In 1960-61, they will still be over-planted, and by that time they will have plant capable of producing more than 30 per cent. of the anticipated demand either now or then. To hear Deputy Lemass speaking one would think it was recklessness to say to the board: "Get your plant as you need it". Deputy Lemass wants to produce more plant, although there is no use for it. Bord na Móna said: "What is the use of producing turf when the E.S.B. cannot take the production?"
Mr. Lemass
And you can buy coal.
The E.S.B. said: "What is the use of putting up stations when we cannot sell the products of the stations that are there?"
Mr. Lemass
Are you not using the coal and oil stations? Is that not making nonsense of all this talk?
No; it is making nonsense of you. On the question of E.S.B. over-planting, the board told me—and I will repeat this—that they were forced by Deputy Lemass to gear themselves for the commissioning of plant which they did not believe they wanted, which time has proved they did not want and which they will not need for another five years.
Mr. Lemass
I do not believe it. The E.S.B. did not tell you that.
Tell the board that they are liars, if you like.
Mr. Lemass
It is not the board who are liars.
I will put this on record: your own colleague, Deputy MacEntee, then Minister for Finance, wrote a letter to the Minister for Industry and Commerce saying that he did not believe that the E.S.B. could use this plant. Notwithstanding that, Deputy Lemass always took the view, without any technical advice at all, that the board must gear itself up to producing plant simply because the idea grew in his great mind.
Mr. Lemass
Of using turf, instead of importing coal.
In short, Deputy Lemass says the E.S.B. plant is not excessive. The E.S.B. plant is excessive and it will be excessive for a number of years in the light of ascertainable demand.
Mr. Lemass
A good Government will change that.
The ex-Minister, even in opposition, ought to conduct himself. He had 20 minutes and then five minutes of interruptions. I do not think the Deputy has done a service to Bord na Móna or to turf production by raising this matter. I do not think the members of the board, whom I have never seen at a Labour Party meeting, will attempt to deny that, so far as I am concerned, I gave them every possible assistance to produce turf and to develop their programme, and I aided them in every possible way. If there is any one of them who says that I did not, I invite him—with a guarantee that there will be no consequences—to write to me, through the public Press, a letter to the contrary to-morrow or any other day he likes, and that is a fair offer.
Of course, this whole thing springs from Deputy Lemass's desire to dominate, whether he is in office or out of office. If the raising of this matter on the Adjournment by Deputy Lemass is being put up to the Government as a challenge by him that this Government cannot make its own appointments to State-sponsored bodies and that they must accept the Fianna Fáil concept that these bodies must be Fianna Fáil dominated, that challenge will be accepted here and now. There are more people in the community than members of Fianna Fáil.
Mr. Lemass
Not very many now.
If he wants to raise this matter, as no doubt he is raising it, from a political point of view, that is the answer to him.
The mistake is that you did not get rid of a few more of the board.
The Fianna Fáil Party want to make nominations when in office, so that when they go out of office and cease to be Ministers they will have their friends there, and overnight they become directors of public companies. That is a disgraceful performance.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 15th November, 1956.