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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 May 1957

Vol. 161 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Turf Development Bill, 1957 —Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This Bill empowers Bord na Móna to borrow for capital purposes with the consent of the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Finance by the creation of its own stock—stock which may be secured on the property of the Bord and which may be under-written and guaranteed by the Minister for Finance and which will rank as trustee securities. The Bill empowers the board to raise money in that way to a total of £2,000,000 but it is not proposed to alter the limit of £14,000,000 which was authorised for turf development purposes under the Turf Development Acts of 1946 and 1953.

Generally speaking, it can be said that the provisions made in this Bill in respect of Bord na Móna are similar to those made in 1954 for the E.S.B. In that year, the E.S.B. was authorised to borrow for capital purposes by the issue of stock in a similar way. On that occasion I put forward the considerations which justified allowing the E.S.B. to have direct access to the capital market and the same considerations apply in respect of Bord na Móna. The introduction of this Bill, therefore, in a sense represents a further development of the policy initiated by the E.S.B. Act, 1954.

This Bill was prepared in the Department of Industry and Commerce during the time of the previous Government but it represents a further development of a policy with which I had some association and I want to make it clear that I am in complete agreement with that development. I mentioned that under the earlier Turf Development Acts authority was given by the Dáil to expend through Bord na Móna for turf development purposes capital sums to the limit of £14,000,000. Of the expenditure authorised by these Acts, £10,500,000 has already occurred and there is now unused authority available to the board of £3,500,000—£3.4 million to be precise—which will be sufficient, so far as we can see at present, to cover the board's estimated requirements for a few years. At the end of that time, new legislation will be required but it is perhaps not desirable to avail of this Bill to raise the limit because the Dáil may wish to have and should, I think, seek to have an opportunity of reconsidering the position when the £14,000,000 expenditure stage has been passed.

The total estimated cost of the programmes which the board was authorised by the previous Acts to undertake was £20,000,000. That expenditure was related to a turf development programme which aimed at the realisation of certain production targets by the year 1960. The targets fixed for Bord na Móna under these earlier Acts, and which the £20,000,000 was provided to enable them to realise, involved the production of 900,000 tons of sod peat by 1960, 2,500,000 tons of milled peat, 50,000 tons of turf briquettes which the Lullymore factory is capable of producing, and providing for expanding production of peat moss as the market for it developed. These targets, both for sod turf and milled peat were fixed in relation to an E.S.B. programme which at that time contemplated installed capacity by 1961 of 1,022 mwts. The programme for the construction of new generating capacity by the E.S.B., to which this turf development programme relates, was published to the Dáil early in 1954 and was approved of by the Dáil at that time. By early last year it had become clear that the growth of demand for electric power here was contracting.

Prior to 1955 the demand for current increased at an average annual rate of 13 per cent., that is, the amount of current required to meet the demand in each year was 13 per cent. higher than in the previous year, on the average. The E.S.B. programme for the construction of new generating stations had to be based on the assumption that the expansion of demand would continue at that rate. It became clear towards the end of 1955 or early 1956 that the rate of growth in the demand for current had fallen off. Indeed, in 1956, demand for current exceeded the demand for the previous year by only 7 per cent. The E.S.B. therefore decided to revise its programme for the construction of new generating stations. Its present programme, as revised, contemplates having installed capacity by 1961 of 728 mw. as compared with 1,022 mw. visualised in the 1954 programme. That curtailment of the E.S.B.'s construction programme involved a revision of the Bord na Móna programme as well.

A large part of the sod peat production and all of the milled peat production was designed to be used in power stations. The alterations in the E.S.B. programme involved the deletion from it of new stations or the reduction in the size and capacity of other stations to an extent which meant a considerable diminution in the outlet that would be available for milled peat by 1960. Of the new generating capacity dropped from the E.S.B.'s programme, 180 mw. was intended to be based upon milled peat. The curtailment of the programme affected all the bogs designed for the production of milled peat.

I should perhaps make it clear at this stage that I am not accepting that the growth in the demand for power will not expand again as, I hope, industrial development is accelerated, nor that the E.S.B.'s new generation programme should be based upon the 1955-56 experience. I have not yet had an opportunity of going into the matter in the detail I would wish or of considering what further revision and extension of the E.S.B. programme may be required if the growth in the demand for power should recover. It might be optimistic to hope that we could get back to the same rate of growth as was experienced before 1955 but some improvement on 1956 may, I think, with some confidence be anticipated. If there is an improvement to be expected then it is obviously necessary to have a look at the E.S.B. programme because we could not contemplate a situation arising in which possible industrial developments might have to be delayed or might be limited by any delay in supplying them with electric power.

The particulars which I am now able to give the House relate to the E.S.B.'s programme which is now authorised. As I have informed the House the programme will be reconsidered and it may be that I will have another opportunity of giving the House some further information regarding it because, apart altogether from any question of revising the programme, certain legislation affecting the E.S.B. must be introduced in the course of the year. I have mentioned that when the 1953 Turf Development Act was being passed the targets contemplated for 1960, that is the outputs it was intended that Bord na Móna should be able to achieve in 1960, were 900,000 tons of sod turf and 2,500,000 tons of milled turf.

The present targets for 1960 involved a slight increase in the output of sod turf in that year. As against the 900,000 tons which it was intended they should by then produce, it is now to be 960,000 tons. That arises by reason of the fact that the power stations which were designed to use sod turf, and in connection with which these sod turf bogs were developed, have proved to be substantially more efficient than was anticipated when they were designed. Their output is greater and the requirements of fuel are larger than was originally contemplated. Consequently, Bord na Móna has to keep pace with that improvement in the performance of these stations and meet their full turf requirements which involves that slight increase by 1960 over the target originally set for that year.

Of the 960,000 tons of sod turf which the board will be producing by 1960 more than half, 500,000 tons or over, will go to the generating stations at Portarlington, Allenwood and Lanes boro'.

The big contraction which is now contemplated in Bord na Móna's production by 1960 will take place in milled peat. As against 2,500,000 tons which it was estimated would be required by that year for the new E.S.B. stations, the present figure is 1,300,000 tons. As I have said, if the demand for power expands-that will depend on the rate at which the national economy develops-the rate of milled peat production will expand also, but I do not think it would now be practicable to aim in any circumstances at the achievement of the output of 2,500,000 tons of milled peat contemplated for 1960. I do not think that target could now be realised, but I certainly hope that circumstances will make it necessary to expand the existing target of 1,300,000 tons.

The contribution which Bord na Móna can make to our electric energy requirements is, therefore, in part postponed. In the meantime we are continuing to depend heavily on imported fuel to meet these requirements. One of the matters that I think is worthy of examination is the economy of bringing the new milled peat-fired stations into production earlier than at present contemplated even if it might mean the reduced use—for a time—of existing stations designed to use imported fuel.

That is a matter of arithmetic and I do not think anybody would contemplate at the present time incurring capital expenditure which was not obviously needed in that field. Apart from the advantages and employment which would arise if we could justify bringing these milled peat stations which were dropped from the programme back into the programme again, there would be a clear gain in present circumstances if we could reduce or avoid the importation of fuel for the production of power. I have made it clear that that is a matter for re-examination in my view. I do not want to suggest that any conclusions have been reached.

There is, however, another development of which I think the House already has some knowledge and that is towards the expansion of the production of turf briquettes. In view of the alteration in the position of Bord na Móna which became necessary when the E.S.B. decided it was necessary to reduce its programme, the board put forward to the Government of the time, in May of last year, proposals for the establishment of additional briquetting capacity. The board has, of course, been producing turf briquettes at Lullymore since 1940. Indeed before 1940 they were produced at Lullymore by a private company and there has been a steady growth in the demand for them. They have secured public favour, and with the increasing cost of imported coal that favour becomes greater. The plant at Lullymore has a maximum capacity of 50,000 tons a year and it is now working and will continue to work to that capacity, but that output is very far short of the potential demand for these briquettes.

That demand has been growing in volume as the cost of coal rose. The possibility of expanding production of briquettes was considered previously when I was Minister for Industry and Commerce and I received a report from Bord na Móna early in 1954 which seemed to show that the capital cost of a new factory for the production of briquettes would be so high as to make the briquettes uneconomic if sold at a price which would be economic at the then price of coal.

That situation, I think, persisted during the whole of 1954 and, certainly during that period, as far as I can ascertain, it was the view of the board that the possibility of producing briquettes here in greater volume and selling them at an economic price did not exist. They changed their mind in August, 1955. By then the price of coal had risen to a point at which Bord na Móna considered that it would be possible to establish a new plant for their production and sell them at a price which would be so competitive with coal as to ensure a ready sale for them and in that month the board proposed to reconsider the position in view of the new circumstances that had arisen, that is to say, the higher price of coal which quite obviously was going to persist.

At that time, however-and it is necessary that this point should be understood-the expectation that it would be necessary to curtail the E.S.B.'s programme had not arisen. At August, 1955, the E.S.B.'s 1954 programme stood unchanged and an examination of the position showed that increased briquette production could be undertaken only by cancelling one of the milled peat stations in that programme, involving its replacement, as it was then considered, by an oil-burning station. That proposal was turned down by my predecessor and on the assumption of the time, particularly the assumption that the 1954 E.S.B. programme was to be completed as planned, he took, I think, the right decision but, by March, 1956, the position had changed. The E.S.B. had then decided that it was necessary to cut down considerably upon the 1954 generation programme and that revision involved the curtailment of milled peat production for power purposes.

In the circumstances, Bord na Móna revived its proposal for the establishment of a new briquetting factory and finally put it forward again in May, 1956. After some consideration of the wisdom of having one factory of substantial capacity or two factories of lesser capacity, it was finally proposed by the board that two factories should be established, one at Derrygreena in Offaly and the other at Boora. That decision was linked to the fact that the power station which it had been originally intended to establish at Derrygreena bog had been reduced in the E.S.B. programme from a capacity of 80 megawatts to 40 megawatts and the station which it was planned to establish on the Boora bog had been reduced from 100 megawatts to 60 megawatts.

It will be appreciated that that reduction in the requirements of the power stations which it was intended should be established in these bogs involved the availability of resources there which could be utilised for the production of peat briquettes and towards which a substantial development has already taken place. These proposals to establish these two factories for the production of peat briquettes were approved of by the then Government subject to the limitation that only one of the proposed factories should be proceeded with at once.

The total capital required by the board for these two stations will be £1,800,000 and it will be appreciated, therefore, that the original provision for the purposes of Bord na Móna contemplated by the earlier legislation of £20,000,000 must therefore be increased by that amount.

Deputies will be aware that Messrs. Arthur Guinness and Company, Ltd., have decided to lend Bord na Móna £500,000 towards the cost of that first briquetting factory. I think that this is the occasion upon which I should express, as my predecessor expressed, appreciation of the willingness of that firm to give that very practical assistance to an important national under-taking. The substantial investment in that undertaking by a firm of the reputation and status of Messrs. Guinness and Company will, I hope, encourage others to show similar faith in the country's future. One of the purposes for which this Bill is required is to enable that arrangement between Bord na Móna and Messrs. Guinness and Company to be implemented.

The board has made very steady progress in all its activities and, indeed, for one who, like myself, was in at the beginning of that undertaking and who remembers the doubts that were expressed as to the wisdom of proceeding with it and the prospect of its succeeding the board's accounts of to-day are very pleasant reading. Up to the present it has, in relation to its production programmes which I mentioned, exceeded its target in regard to sod peat. Because of the upset due to the alteration of the E.S.B. plans, the 1956-57 production, the production in the last financial year, of milled peat was only 205,000 tons, against the original target set for that year of 400,000 tons. However, the developments planned are going ahead now and the production of milled peat this year will be increased to something over 400,000 tons.

Not merely has the board achieved all that it was given to do in the matter of the physical organisation of the production of turf fuel for power and other purposes but the financial results of its operations are also very satisfactory. The board has already paid off to the Exchequer its liability in respect of advances which were made to its predecessor, the old Turf Development Board. These advances amounted to £358,742. I am sure the Minister for Finance of the day regarded it as a rather doubtful debt and even though there was incorporated in the Act which set up Bord na Móna the provision which put on them the obligation to pay off that amount already expended by the Turf Development Board there may not have been much hope that it would be able to do so. In fact, it has now cleared off that liability entirely. It has already commenced the repayment through half-yearly annuities of £4,000,000 of the capital cost of the first development programme. The first development programme contemplated an expenditure of £6,400,000 and the repayment of the first £4,000,000 of that sum has already commenced and the repayment of the balance, £2,400,000, will commence in October of this year.

The Tánaiste would not like to say how much has been repaid?

Yes. The full amount paid by Bord na Móna to the Exchequer in respect of interest and the repayment—

Of capital?

I have not got that figure. I may get it for the Deputy. The total amount paid to date under all heads by Bord na Móna to the Exchequer is £1,500,000. This Bill of course is just an enabling Bill. I do not want the Dáil to take it on its enactment, on this giving to the board this legal power to borrow, that the power will be availed of immediately otherwise than to complete the arrangements with Messrs. Arthur Guinness under which £500,000 is made available for the turf briquetting factory. I should hope to see an early development of a situation in which Bord na Móna, the E.S.B. and other statutory organisations of that kind could be allowed to finance themselves by going to the public for money, and issuing their own stock. It will be appreciated of course that they will be entitled to expect to get the support of the Exchequer in the form of underwriting arrangements and guarantees which will facilitate them in arranging funds on favourable terms. The amount which we are proposing to authorise by the issue of stock in this Bill will represent only a small part of the capital already invested, and to be invested, in this undertaking.

The Bill, indeed, can perhaps be regarded as the forerunner of other measures, assuming that everything goes according to plan, which will eventually perhaps relieve the Exchequer of the obligation of finding capital for this development. We can recommend this Bill in the full knowledge that the undertaking which it is designed to assist is a successful undertaking, successful beyond the expectations of many and it is giving every promise of being just as successful in the future.

The purpose of this Bill, as the Minister has said, is to enable Bord na Móna to obtain their finance other than by direct advances from the Exchequer. It is obviously desirable that Bord na Móna should have the enabling powers so that, if the circumstances warrant or make it desirable, they should obtain their finances separately from the Exchequer. I do not think that this is the right time or place to enter into a discussion with the Minister as to whether it is desirable that there should be single issues for national purposes as there were in the last financial year, a sort of multiplicity of issues. These are matters which could be more fully debated on another occasion. In general I must say that, in relation to that, there has been far too great a tendency to overwork it. It is the one pool of available resources, unless we get some adventitious additions to the pool.

The generous and patriotic offer of Messrs. Arthur Guinness is such an adventitious addition and it was because of that fact that it was welcomed most emphatically by the previous Government. The manner in which Messrs. Arthur Guinness have shown their belief in the briquetting plants and their faith in the development of our country is worthy of the highest praise. I hope it will strike a keynote for other firms of the same sort which may, by this undertaking, be induced to follow their lead.

The whole purpose of the Bill is to enable Bord na Móna to obtain finance other than from the Exchequer. The immediate purpose of the Bill is to give those powers now so that the arrangements with Messrs. Arthur Guinness can be concluded. I imagine that it will be necessary when this Bill has been enacted for the Minister for Finance to follow with a similar arrangement in the Finance Bill, as was incorporated in respect of the powers given to C.I.E. and the E.S.B. in relation to interest and to the nondeduction of income tax at source. That arrangement, which would be a necessary counterpart to this Bill, should not be in this Bill and must be in a Finance Act.

I am afraid the Minister, if I may say so, rather went outside the scope of this Bill when he was speaking, particularly in relation to the electricity programme. The Minister purported to give the impression to the House that the estimate that had been made of electricity generation prior to the White Paper of which he had charge, was the estimate produced by the E.S.B. That is not the fact, and this is a matter on which I can speak with personal knowledge because I myself went to the greatest trouble in trying to elucidate why certain estimates had been taken, and the fact of the matter was that those estimates were made by Deputy Lemass, as Tánaiste, contrary to the technical advice that he obtained at that time.

The estimates that were included in the White Paper were based on the immediate post-war, post-emergency periods. It was obvious that there would be a growth in electricity consumption in Ireland, because during the war there was not anything like the number of appliances available to meet the demands. It was obvious that there would be a growth in demand in that period which would flatten out as, what I may term the emergency hunger in power and appliances, was met. The estimates put forward at that time by the Tánaiste were not realistic and it fell to us in the inter-Party Government to bring the stage back to realism. Bringing a development of that sort back to realism and ensuring that money would not be wasted by the production of power for which there was not a demand was never likely to be a popular task, but it was a task that was essential in the national interest.

The Minister has told us that we are going to get an opportunity on another occasion of discussing the whole E.S.B. programme. I would welcome that opportunity because, quite frankly, I did not think that this Bill was a proper matter for such a discussion to-day. I would welcome the opportunity of showing that the advances on which the previous White Paper was based were not estimates which had any foundation in fact and which, as we all know now, were not realised. The decision that was taken by the previous Government to switch from milled peat to briquettes was one that had to be taken at the very outset because the production of milled peat requires the development of bog in an entirely different way from that required for briquetting purposes.

I do not quite understand why the Minister when speaking of the £1.8 million that is required for briquetting purposes said that it was to be added to the £20,000,000 programme because at other times he was suggesting that the programme had to be contracted. It seems if there is an increase on one aspect for briquetting plants there will be equally on the other side a contraction in the production of milled peat as it will not be needed. It would be most disloyal of me not to say this. The Minister in his speech to-day attempted to imply that the errors in estimation of the power load and the change in that estimation last year were errors of the E.S.B. That is not correct. The E.S.B. estimates were realistic and very much nearer the actuality as the years went by than those which the Minister superimposed on them.

We saw also that, if the White Paper figures were allowed to run on ahead, there would be moneys utterly wasted —capital sums paid for bringing stations into commission before they were needed, power that could not be drawn upon. It was because of that we deemed it essential, in the national interest, that the capital should not be invested in that fashion. Any blame the Minister attempted to imply to the E.S.B. in his opening statement is entirely without justification and foundation.

One of the things that cannot be decided upon in relation to the load that must be catered for is what margin of safety is required, particularly in relation to hydroelectric schemes. A wet summer, wet spring or wet autumn brings us very great difficulties from the sowing point of view in spring, the harvesting point of view in autumn and perhaps from the point of view of haymaking in summer. At the same time, it does ease to a very great extent the task of the E.S.B. in supplying power. The amount which one must allow for variations in our climate is one of the things about which there will always be two opinions. In present circumstances, it seems to me desirable that the margin should not be excessive and that the capital available from the saving caused by cutting that margin, could, therefore, be used for other purposes.

I do not think that the capital figure in relation to the repayment of advances by Bord na Móna to the Exchequer is quite as rosy as the Minister was inclined to imply. At any rate, it is satisfactory that the repayment of the first programme has started. It is also satisfactory that the obligations of the old Turf Development Board have been paid off. Obviously, they should be paid off because Bord na Móna has had all the advantage of previous work done, although to my recollection they got that completely interest free.

As I say, this is an enabling Bill solely for the purpose of enabling the board to borrow otherwise than from the Exchequer. Its introduction is necessary at this juncture because of the generous and patriotic gesture of Messrs. Arthur Guinness, Son and Company, Limited. I think all Parties here should be grateful to that firm for that gesture.

It was quite easy to see that, with access to greater knowledge, the Minister was much better informed on E.S.B. plant and E.S.B. difficulties than he was when he was in Opposition. I remember the Minister sitting in the Opposition Benches last year, working himself into an intense fury about the cutting down of E.S.B. plant and saying that this was all part of a measure which fiendish people in the last Government had devised for the purpose of cutting back on E.S.B. development. All these charges are proved to be almost pretence and fraud in the light of the facts. The last Government did nothing to cut back on E.S.B. development.

In a parliamentary question to-day, I asked for information as to the amount of money spent on rural electrification since 1952. Anybody who takes the trouble of reading the reply will see that during the past three and a half years we spent much more on rural electrification than was ever spent in the whole history of the scheme. Last year, the sum of £3,500,000 was spent on rural electrification. That is not the action of a body which is concerned with cutting back on the fruitful development the E.S.B. might wish to undertake.

The plain fact of the matter is that the cutting back in the E.S.B. plant programme was necessary because the E.S.B. realised they were not able, and did not want, to undertake the plant programme which was envisaged in the White Paper of 1954. I take it that the Minister has since had an opportunity of looking at the file on that subject. That file is a most interesting and revealing one. It shows that the Department of Industry and Commerce engaged in correspondence with the E.S.B. for the purpose of ascertaining what was the anticipated increase in the demand for electricity. The battle ebbs and flows. The Department says: "This will be the estimate." The E.S.B. come back and say: "We do not think it will be that."

This does not arise on the present Bill.

I know it does not, Sir, and I wondered why it was allowed.

I would direct your attention to the Minister's speech—

The Minister mentioned some of these things in passing——

The Minister spent all his time doing so.

Not in the detail into which the Deputy is going.

I have been on my feet for only two minutes and I cannot get so much detail into that time. However, the essence of the matter is that the Minister is now much wiser. In 1954, the E.S.B. programme was based on grotesque estimates of the anticipated increase in the demand for electricity. It was then anticipated that the demand for electricity would double itself in five to five and a half years. It has not done anything of the kind. Last year, the increase was about 7 per cent.; the year before, it was 9 per cent. Bear in mind that 9 per cent. is not an unusual percentage when contrasted against the requirements of this country. The O.E.E.C. Report shows that 9 per cent. was the approximate increase in electricity in the whole European setup. In 1954, the amateur planned what the increase would be.

There is a letter on the file from the then Minister for Finance, the present Minister for Health, Deputy MacEntee, to his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, saying that the Department of Finance did not accept the view that the demand for electricity would double in the period of five to five and a half years. The E.S.B. took the view that the demand would not increase nearly as much, but notwithstanding the views of the Minister for Finance, notwithstanding the views of the E.S.B. which was in close touch with affairs, the White Paper was issued on the direction of the Minister for Industry and Commerce telling the board what they should plan for.

The E.S.B. proceeded to plan on the assumption that this increased demand for electricity would continue. It did not continue, as the board had said, but the E.S.B. was given overriding instructions how to get planted to meet that demand. Bord na Móna, on the other hand, was told to produce sod and milled peat for the purpose of satisfying that demand and when, in early 1956, we asked the E.S.B. what their programme was they came to us and said: "Look here, we do not want this plant; we cannot use that plant; we are over-planted as we are, and with the plant which we have and which we have in sight we will be over-planted until 1961 or 1962."

I tried to get Bord na Móna to go ahead on the Bangor Erris bog. The E.S.B. told me, and it is on the files, that the earliest they could use the produce of the Bangor Erris bog would be in 1962 or 1963 because of the fact that they were geared up to a planting programme which was unrealistic and grossly in excess of their requirements. That is known now; and it is a pity it was not known earlier that the E.S.B. was given these false riding instructions and that it was following these riding instructions so that Bord na Móna, an innocent victim, had to cut back extensively on its milled peat programme.

Bord na Móna believed quite naturally that it could develop its bogs. That involves long planning and considerable advance drainage arrangements. These arrangements had to be made on the assumption that the E.S.B. would go ahead with its White Paper programme. The programme proved to be unnecessary; a great deal of the plant was unwanted for four or five years to come, and Bord na Móna, having geared itself to drain its bogs and to produce milled peat, had to cut back to such an extent that it does not now require all the milled peat that would satisfy the supposed requirements of the E.S.B.

In that set of circumstances I discussed with Bord na Móna the possibility of utilising some of the bogs for the production of more briquettes. In 1954 the board was producing about 35,000 tons of briquettes at the Ticknevin factory. That was brought up to 40,000 tons soon afterwards and to 45,000 tons last year. Eventually we got it up to 50,000 tons, the optimum annual production of that plant. After the discussions with Bord na Móna, I went to the Government and recommended a proposal which had been certified by Bord na Móna for the erection of two turf briquette factories, one at Boora bog and the other at Derrygreena. The object of this was to produce 100,000 tons of briquettes in each factory each year, a total of 200,000 tons of turf briquettes. The plants would cost £900,000 each, but the 200,000 tons of briquettes would be equivalent in calorific value of 130,000 tons of imported coal.

I believe that was a good proposal and I recommended it to the Government and they approved of it. Bord na Móna was consequently given instructions to erect these two briquetting plants. I had hoped at one stage that it might be possible to erect another briquetting plant on the Bangor Erris bog, where the peat, unlike other places, is quite suitable for the production of briquettes. However, Bangor Erris is rather remote from the centres of population where the briquettes would be likely to be consumed, and the carriage of the fuel from that area would probably make it expensive and provide an unfavourable comparison with the price of briquettes produced elsewhere and perhaps also with imported fuel.

I think the decision to embark upon the installation of these two turf briquetting plants was a good national investment. The briquettes so produced will stand comparison with imported fuels and I have no doubt Bord na Móna will be able to sell all the briquettes it so produces, particularly if coal remains at the present high level as appears likely at present. Indeed, if we could induce our people to recognise the national advantages to be derived from consuming peat as a fuel here, we could render ourselves, in the course of time, still more independent of imported fuels.

Recently, however, briquettes have come into popular favour and I have no doubt that the output of the two factories at Boora and Derrygreena will be sold easily when the product is available. But I would not like to think that Bord na Móna would just stop there, as I believe this fuel has a good future before it and that with the development among our own people of a consciousness that they would help the national economy by using it, there should be no difficulty whatever in disposing of whatever large quantities of briquettes are produced in the plants immediately contemplated and those which I hope will follow.

I want to join with the Minister in paying a tribute to Bord na Móna. I think it is a first-class State-sponsored enterprise. It has been confronted with difficulties which were sufficiently numerous and complex to deter the very stoutest hearts, but Bord na Móna's administrative staff, technical staff and labour staff have looked upon these difficulties as something to be surmounted. They have been able to get through the most appalling difficulties and I should like especially to pay a tribute to those of the staff, at management, executive and worker level, who successfully settled down to work on these bogs, these remote, wind-swept areas, in order to make these bogs usable and exploitable for the benefit of the Irish economy.

Bord na Móna has done a first-class job and I think this Bill, which is the same Bill as we had drafted before the change of Government, to give Bord na Móna the right to go to the public market for money, represents a logical development of the board and represents the arrival of the board at a stage which might be described as its financial manhood. The very fact that a firm of the standing of Arthur Guinness and Son Limited have seen fit to lend the board a sum of £500,000 is an endorsement by such a firm of the creditworthy efforts of Bord na Móna. It marks, too, by that firm their conviction of the soundness of the whole enterprise and is, at the same time, a demonstration of their confidence in the future of turf and in the future of the Irish nation. I should like to repeat, in this context, the tributes which have been paid already to the firm for its magnificent generosity and for its excellent example. I hope at the same time that the good example thus shown by the firm of Messrs. Arthur Guinness. Son & Co. will be emulated by others who are in a position to lend money to Bord na Móna to finance its further development.

However, may I suggest this to the Minister and through him to the Government? If Messrs. Arthur Guinness regard the shares or the scrip or the IOUs of Bord na Móna as good security for £500,000 which they lend the board, then I think it is not too much to expect that the Central Bank might likewise take into its portfolios the IOUs of Bord na Móna and substitute Bord na Móna scrip or share certificates for the scrip and share certificates which represent the borrowings of another country. After all, if Messrs. Guinness think Bord na Móna an excellent enterprise and well worthy of being lent money for developmental purposes, surely the same scrip or the same share certificates are as good security for the Central Bank as many other things which they take into their portfolios as a receipt for moneys which they lend or cause to be guaranteed.

I would hope that bodies like the E.S.B., Bord na Móna, Irish Shipping and Aer Lingus—all of whom have by now reached financial manhood—would find that they could have their borrowings financed through the Central Bank, if for any reason it is not possible for them to get the finance which they require by direct appeal to the lending public. They are all first-class enterprises. It is most unfair that any of them should find themselves compelled to adopt a policy of retardation instead of a policy of progress, merely because of the difficulty of finding the money to finance their activities.

I want to conclude by saying that I welcome this Bill. Indeed, I welcome every Bill calculated to expand our turf production activities and to make for the extended growth of Bord na Móna. I think the organisation has done a good job, from those who work on the bogs to those who direct their activities. Any help which this House can give that organisation in pushing ahead with its work, this House should willingly give.

May I mention one matter to the Minister which engaged my attention but which was not completed when we left office? One of the bad features of Bord na Móna employment is that it takes on a large number of persons in March, April and May for the purpose of cutting and harvesting work; and in September and October those people are paid off, with the result that their problem each year is to find work to keep them going from October until the following February, March or April, as they live in the turf development areas, where there is no normal alternative employment. I have examined the possibility of seeing whether Bord na Móna could not be given other work to do, which could be started about October or November and which would finish about February or March, so that the workers could be transferred from that winter work back on to the bog work and, at the end of their period on the bog, switched over again to the alternative work. The only immediately available work which one could think of is the possibility of giving planting activities to Bord na Móna; in other words, to allow them plant timber in the winter months so as to provide employment for the staff who otherwise would be paid off.

I had that discussed on a number of occasions with the Land Commission, but the Land Commission regarded the planting of timber as its special preserve and numerous discussions failed to produce any agreement—or, indeed, enthusiasm—on their part for a scheme by which Bord na Móna would do some supplementary timber planting.

However, I think the idea is well worth following up. It may well be, of course, that Bord na Móna cannot plant on cutaway bog because the method of developing the bog does not provide for having cutaway bog immediately available. The bog is cut under modern conditions at a uniform depth each year over a long period of years, so that the whole bog is virtually cut away about the one time at some date in the distant future. There is, therefore, no cutaway bog of any substantial size or acreage immediately adjoining the existing bog. I think Bord na Móna has to be given power, if it is to do its work, to acquire land on the perimeter of the bogs, land where turf is not deep enough for cutting but tractable enough for the planting of timber.

It will continue to be a blot on the character of the employment which Bord na Móna provides—and that employment is valuable employment, especially in the areas where it is provided—so long as there is so much casualisation associated with it. I think the only way in which we can surmount the difficulty is by making Bord na Móna a timber planting agency as well as a turf cutting agency. If that can be done, it would provide a valuable medium for steady employment with Bord na Móna. It would give the workers concerned a full year's work, instead of six or seven months' regular work, and then none or possibly intermittent employment for the other five months. It is something which will have to be dealt with some time. As I say, the question has been discussed already with the Land Commission. I think it is along that line that Bord na Móna can most usefully fill in the lacuna which is caused by the paying off of staff in September or October and not being able to find useful work for them until turf cutting starts the following year.

I welcome the Bill as something calculated to develop still further our turf production potential.

As is obvious from this discussion, there is general agreement on the aims enshrined in this Bill. In fact, this Bill was introduced originally by the previous Government. As was mentioned by the Minister at the outset, the main purpose is to increase the borrowing powers of Bord na Móna and, in addition, to enable Bord na Móna to accept an offer of an investment of a sum of £500,000 by Messrs. Arthur Guinness. Son and Co. in the proposed two new briquetting factories. Both the previous Government and this Government have publicly expressed appreciation of that magnificent gesture. It is a unique occasion for such an investment to be made. So far as my knowledge goes, no firm has in the past made a similar investment. The fact that Messrs. Guinness are prepared to do so is, in itself, not only an expression of that firm's faith in the decision to establish two briquetting factories but is a gesture of confidence and an expression of their confidence in the fundamental soundness of the national economy.

Messrs. Guinness is a firm which has deep roots in this country. In fact, few firms have any deeper or stronger ties. In addition, it is a company with not only considerable resources here but considerable resources abroad. The fact that such a firm is prepared to make an investment of this nature in this enterprise is a headline that may well be followed by other firms. Individual firms may wish to invest in a particular enterprise rather than in a national loan. For a variety of reasons, these firms or the directors of these firms may feel that Government policy or public expenditure on certain projects is not what those firms or their directors might themselves favour; consequently, if other firms wish to follow this example, I believe they should be facilitated and, where necessary, measures should be introduced which will provide opportunities, should firms wish to express their support of an undertaking of this nature.

Such an investment may, of course, affect the over-all pool available for capital development, and, if that occurs, it will have an effect on the over-all availability of capital for development purposes or for development schemes which the Government wish to finance in a particular year or over a period. On the other hand, it may be that such an investment would be an investment over and above the supply of capital which would normally be invested by firms of that nature in national loans. Only time can show whether the prospect of similar investments in national undertakings will be forthcoming. Certainly this one was most welcome and I am sure the members of the House, and also the public, appreciate the public-spirited action of this firm which is in conformity with its great record in this country.

I need not enlarge on the matters that have already engaged the attention of the House in connection with the different rates of development of the E.S.B. generating programme or the alteration in the Bord na Móna programme. However, there is one important matter that should be borne in mind, that once a scheme of development is undertaken by Bord na Móna in a locality, any alteration in that scheme affects seriously the interests of a large number of those employed in it and so far as is possible agreement should be reached on the proposed rate of development so that people who are employed do not get the impression that long-term employment will be available without an alteration in the programme as a result of a change in either the type of development, because that has an effect on the numbers employed, or in the rate of development.

There is one other matter to which I want to refer in connection with the proposal to develop the briquetting plants. As a result of the high cost of imported fuel, demand for these briquettes has grown considerably, and while this may be more appropriately a matter for the administration of Bord na Móna, I have received, as I am sure other Deputies have from time to time, complaints from traders, particularly small traders, that they cannot get a quota of briquettes. Briquettes not only have a value to the trader from the immediate sale point of view but they also attract custom very often because of the suitability of these briquettes for domestic fuel consumption.

I believe that Bord na Móna or any other such organisation has a duty to see that supplies are made available as widely as possible to traders who wish to avail of them and that monopolistic tendencies should not be allowed to develop concerning the distribution of these briquettes. Very many small traders find it difficult to get supplies. On the other hand, it may be that they are new in the trade and that others have established contacts which have existed over a period. Nevertheless, I believe from my experience—and I think other Deputies have had similar experience—that care should be taken to see that they are made available, even on a restricted supply basis, to traders who wish to avail of them.

They are, as most people have come to realise, a very efficient and suitable fuel, and, with the increase in the price of coal, the demand for them has grown accordingly. I merely wish to support the proposals enshrined in this Bill and that we may experience similar examples of faith, not only in the proposal we have before us here, namely the two briquetting factories, but also the example of Messrs. Guinness which may well be followed by other firms in other spheres of national development.

I have no desire to rake over the fires of old controversies but, with regard to this argument as to whether I induced the E.S.B. to engage on a construction programme in excess of what they thought necessary, I want to put an end to it once and for all, so that neither Deputy Norton nor Deputy Sweetman will have the hardihood to refer to it again.

I assert here and now that the programme for electricity development announced in the White Paper in 1954 was prepared by the E.S.B. and submitted to the Dáil in the form which it reached me from the E.S.B., without the alteration of a single figure. Deputy Norton says that was a grotesque estimate of the future requirements of electric current in this country forced on the E.S.B. by me. When did he discover that? When did the E.S.B. tell him that that programme, involving them in excessive generating capacity, had been forced upon them by me? Does he remember that? It certainly was not after the change of Government in 1954. It was not even in 1955.

I mentioned already that when this question of establishing the briquetting factory was first brought forward by Bord na Móna, when they proposed to the Minister for Industry and Commerce of the day that a bog that they were developing for the purpose of supplying a generating station could be diverted to supplying a turf briquetting factory, the E.S.B. said that if that one single station was taken out of their programme they would immediately have to make plans to replace it by another station, involving the use of imported fuel; and by November, 1955—and that was a long time after the change of Government and a long time after the Minister of the day had had an opportunity of finding out whether the board had been forced into an excessive pro-programme, and a long time after the board had had an opportunity of telling him that that was so, if it was so— the Minister decided that Bord na Móna could not be allowed to proceed with this briquetting project of theirs and, in a letter which he sent, or directed to be sent to Bord na Móna on 23rd November, 1955, he said that he had been advised by the E.S.B. that the abandonment of Derrygreena station would necessitate the installation of an equivalent oil or coal plant elsewhere, probably at Dublin; and, on the basis of that understanding in November, 1955, that the programme for electricity generation prepared in my time, in 1954, was not merely a realistic programme related to the estimated requirements of current but was also one that could not be modified in any single degree, he turned down the briquetting project.

As late as 1955, the then Minister for Industry and Commerce rejected the plan for the establishment of a briquetting factory, and not merely was there no suggestion in 1955 that the E.S.B.'s programme for a new generating station was not excessive, not merely was there such little foundation for the suggestion that the programme was one into which the E.S.B. had been forced by me against their will, knowing it to be excessive, but in December, 1955, the E.S.B. came to the Minister for Industry and Commerce of the day and proposed to extend the programme by including in it the addition of further generating capacity in Dublin, to be based upon the importation of oil. Now, in the light of these facts, am I right in contending that I have disposed forever of this preposterous suggestion that the E.S.B. were forced, or allowed themselves to be forced, by me in 1954 into embarking upon a new generating programme which was substantially in excess of the country's estimated requirements at that time?

They told me the Minister forced them into doing it.

I do not believe that.

Will the Minister read the Minister for Finance's letter on that file?

The Deputy has asked me to read the file. I have not had time for exercises of that kind since I resumed office. In the light of the suggestion that the E.S.B. was forced into an excessive programme of new generating capacity, will Deputy Norton explain why, in 1955, he turned down a proposal by Bord na Móna to divert one of their bogs to briquette manufacture on the ground that, if that one station was taken out of the E.S.B. programme, another station would immediately have to be provided in its stead? Will he explain why, even after he had turned down that proposal to establish a briquetting factory in Derrygreena in 1955 on that ground, even after he had decided that the programme for the E.S.B. published in the White Paper of 1954 was to stand unchanged, the E.S.B. came back later to extend that programme by including an additional 60-megowatt oil-burning capacity in Dublin?

It is true that early in 1956 the E.S.B., knowing what had happened in 1955, came back to say that their programme was then excessive, having regard to the change that had taken place since 1954. Deputy Sweetman tried to suggest that I was holding the E.S.B. to blame by reason of the fact that the 1954 programme proved to be excessive in 1956. I have never attempted from either side of this House to blame the E.S.B. for that. In 1954 there was no possible alternative except to estimate the new generation programme upon the basis of experience to that date and experience to that date showed that for every year since the end of the war the demand for electricity had grown on the average by 13 per cent. per annum and it would have been a dereliction of duty on the part of the board or the then Minister for Industry and Commerce to have prepared a new generation programme upon any assumption which did not involve a continuation of the growth of demand at that rate.

I am always prepared, I will admit, to make my plans for the future on optimistic assumptions. I am certainly not prepared to make them on pessimistic assumptions. If there is any blame attaching here, then it is to go on the shoulders of the Government during whose period in office this contraction of the national economy took place and, once again, we have evidence that when the national economy begins to contract in any sphere repercussions of that contraction are felt everywhere.

We had in this country, in each year up to 1954, a growth in demand for current at an average rate of 13 per cent. When, in 1956, the E.S.B. found that the growth in demand was only 7 per cent. they had to revise their programme. Of course they had to do that and I am not criticising them for the revision of the programme which they adopted then. Neither am I criticising the Government of the day for having accepted that revision. I have said, and I repeat, I am not yet prepared to agree to the new revised programme involving the postponement of many of the projects contemplated in 1954 and the limitation of the production of milled peat from a target of 2,500,000 tons to a target of 1.3 million tons. I am not prepared to agree that that revision must stand. We are not yet in a position to make any assumptions as to what expansion in the national economy may become possible. As I have said, I am having examined the economics of proceeding with developments which will involve the use of native resources even if they also involve the non-utilisation for a period of power stations that depend upon the importation of fuel. These are matters for examination and any decision which may be taken as a result of that examination will be communicated and will, I am sure, be quite easily justified to the House.

Deputy Sweetman asked why, in view of the fact that Board na Móna's programme has been curtailed in consequence of the curtailment of the E.S.B. programme, it is necessary to add to the £20,000,000 provided by legislation for Bord na Móna purposes under previous enactments the £2,000,000 that will be required by them for the financing of these briquette factories. The answer, of course, is that the programme of Bord na Móna still stands. It may not now be possible to complete this programme by 1960 but it certainly will be completed when it is practicable to complete it. The money required for that programme will certainly not fall short of the £20,000,000 originally estimated for it. I do not think that under any circumstances it will now be possible to achieve the 2,500,000 milled peat target by 1960, but I hope circumstances will require in that year a greater production than is now contemplated.

Deputy Norton referred to the seasonal nature of Bord na Móna's employment and told the House that he had, as Minister, tried to persuade his colleague in the Department of Lands to adopt an arrangement under which Bord na Móna would do in the winter months work for the Department of Lands in fulfilment of its planting programme. There is no doubt that the seasonal nature of part of Bord na Móna's employment is a problem we would all like to solve. There seems to be some obvious relationship between seasonal employment on turf production and seasonal employment in forestry planting. Each is done in alternate seasons of the year.

I do not know that that necessarily involves the entrustment of the work of planting to Bord na Móna, but so far as the workers are concerned I am sure it will not matter to them whether they are employed by Bord na Móna or the Department of Lands but it should be possible to effect some co-ordination of both activities so as to make possible all-the-year-round employment for the workers concerned. I have also discussed that matter with my colleague in the Department of Lands and I hope I will be more successful in my discussions than Deputy Norton was in his. I will not follow Deputy Norton into his suggestion with regard to the utilisation of the Central Bank funds. I take it he was not expressing Coalition policy.

It helped you to get your £100,000,000, that faded rather mysteriously in the past two years.

He does not comment upon that.

It still stands as an estimate of what is required.

And of what you intend to produce?

That is a different question altogether. In time a lot of these things will come to pass. Perhaps it would be unfair to remind Deputy Dillon of what he used to say about Bord na Móna when it was in its infancy.

We were talking about the £100,000,000 you were going to raise for capital purposes, by methods which you outlined.

Apart from savings.

Was Deputy Dillon ever right in a forecast? I ask him honestly to look back over the record of his life.

This is not a forecast. This is a polite inquiry about the £100,000,000.

Deputy Sweetman asked to what extent Bord na Móna are repaying the capital advances from the Exchequer. He is aware of the fact that the payment of the board's obligations is done on an annuity basis and because it is on an annuity basis it is obvious that the first payments must contain a very small element of capital repayment. The repayment of the indebtedness of the Turf Development Board represents a complete discharge of that liability.

Will the Minister give us the capital figure?

The total advances to date are £10,500,000. That was divided into two programmes. The first programme was approximately £6,500,000, of which the board has started the repayment of £4,000,000. They are not due to start the repayment on the second programme yet.

A little question will elicit that information.

The Bill is one which I am glad has commended itself to the Dáil. If any Deputy thinks this is a controversial measure—it is a non-controversial measure—he will get time to learn.

Would the Minister be good enough to say, seeing he has dealt very comprehensively with the programme of power development, in how far has it been possible for him to consider the possible impact of atomic power impinging upon these programmes?

The E.S.B. programme is based upon an estimate of power required. It was estimated originally that 1,022 megawatts would be required by 1961. That has been cut down to 750 but how that power is to be provided is another question. My anxiety to get ahead with the development of power stations using turf is based upon a general consideration of the possibility of atomic energy being available to this country in between 15 and 20 years and a desire to see the bogs cleared of turf, believing that the areas now covered by bog could be made fertile and productive and recognising the chance of getting rid of them at a profit exists now and may not exist in 15 or 20 years. If we do not succeed in getting the bogs cleared now a time may come when it may not be as economical to do it. That is a consideration which would justify examining the possibility of proceeding now with stations to use turf as fuel even though it meant that existing stations using imported oil might have to work at less than full capacity for a year or two. That is a question of calculating advantages and disadvantages. It would be a consideration in my mind that a time was coming when atomic energy would undoubtedly be the most economic method of producing electric power.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 8th May, 1957.
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