On the motion for the Adjournment Deputy Corish gave notice that he would raise the matter of the encroachment of foreign trawlers on the fishing grounds within the three mile limit of the south-eastern coast of Wexford and Waterford.
Adjournment Debate. - Encroachment of Foreign Trawlers.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I am raising to-night the matter of foreign trawlers encroaching within the three mile limit of the south-eastern coasts of Wexford and Waterford. There are two or three other Deputies who wish to speak and, in the short time at my disposal, I want to draw to the Minister's attention the seriousness of the situation existing on the southern coasts of Wexford and Waterford. It is a situation in which the livelihood of approximately 500 fishermen and, of course, their families is involved. I do not know what the Minister has done in respect of this situation, but he himself will have seen the attention that has been focussed upon it by the various newspapers in the country.
The encroachment of these foreign trawlers has seriously damaged the livelihood of 500 fishermen. I am informed, by the fishermen themselves, that there are German, Dutch, Polish, French and British trawlers—and I believe, according to a report this morning from Radio Eireann, four Russian trawlers—fishing in the vicinity of Dunmore East and the southern coast of Wexford, that is, fishing within the three mile limit. These trawlers are from 350 to 600 tons and, as the Minister will appreciate, they are substantially bigger than any of the inshore fishing boats which our Irish fishermen have. Apart from taking fish illegally, they are damaging the spawning ground which is very valuable as far as herring catches are concerned. They are using trawl nets which again, as the Minister will appreciate, fish along the bottom of the sea and in that, they are doing serious damage to spawn. They are taking and damaging the spawn.
The Irish boats use ring nets and nets that do not drag along the sea floor. These boats are not big enough, nor are they equipped, to compete with the other trawlers outside the three-mile limit and, of necessity, they are confined to fishing for herring within the three-mile limit. I should like to report to the Minister what has been reported to me by these fishermen, that in some cases these foreign trawlers, with utter disregard for the rights of Irish fishermen, are coming within the three-mile limit and deliberately damaging the nets of Irish fishermen. That is a situation which the Minister and the Government should not tolerate, despite the fact that our defensive resources, to say the best of them, are very limited indeed.
The Minister and the Government may ask: "What is the remedy?" Again I say it is true, as reported to me by the fishermen, that the two corvettes, the Macha and the Cliona, are doing their job well. They are doing their job as best they can when one has regard to the size of the corvettes and the equipment they have. I am informed, or at least I read in the newspapers, that they have made two arrests among the number of foreign trawlers that are there, but it is impossible for them to trace and catch every foreign trawler that comes within the three mile limit. At any rate, they have made two arrests and the skipper of one of these fishing boats was fined a meagre £25 and I believe that his gear was confiscated.
That, in my opinion, and in the opinion of the fishermen, is not a sufficient penalty to deter these people from illegally fishing in Irish territorial waters because, as far as my information goes, the £25 is easily earned by these people. Having regard to the size of their boats and their equipment, it is only portion of a catch for them, but the serious thing is that while the gear is confiscated, immediately after the court case in which the gear is confiscated has been held, the gear is auctioned and the skipper himself, or one of his fishing pals, buys it up and off goes the Frenchman, the Dutchman or the Pole to do again what he was arrested for.
I think, first, that there should be heavier penalties. The law may say that there should be some maximum, but if that maximum is not enough, I suggest there should be immediate legislation introduced to provide for bigger fines. Secondly, the gear when confiscated should be held for protracted periods, that is to say, at least until the season is over. But, above all, if these foreign trawlers come in to fish within three miles of the Irish coast, they should be punished by having their boats confiscated, and they themselves should be sent home at the expense of the Government of the State whence they came.
I want to stress as strongly as I can the damage these foreign trawlers are doing, not alone to the Irish fishermen but to the spawning grounds of the southern coasts of Wexford and Waterford. I should like to make this suggestion to the Minister. Many of us are aware of the generosity and bountifulness of the American Government. It is appreciated that we cannot have a big naval fleet, but at least we should provide for the protection of an industry which is regarded as being a fairly important industry in this country, that is, the fishing industry. Would it be too much to ask the Minister, or the Government, to request the loan of some fishery protection boats from the Government of the United States? So far as I am aware, the United States have many boats at their disposal which could be adapted to fishery protection, boats laid up, as the expression is, "in moth balls" which could easily be lent to the Irish Government for the purpose of protecting our territorial waters.
Along with that, I should like to suggest to the Minister that, as I said, having Dutch, Belgian, Polish, British and Russian fishermen operating illegally in our waters, would it be unreasonable to ask on behalf of our fishermen that a strong note of protest be sent to the heads of these Governments, requesting them to remind their fishermen to respect Irish territorial waters? I have mentioned Irish territorial waters and the three-mile limit a few times, but I should like to know if there is a misunderstanding about this three-mile limit. Has there been a change in recent years? Is the Minister satisfied that the fishermen know what the three-mile limit is and, above all, is the Minister satisfied that the commanders of the corvettes know exactly what the three-mile limit is?
Is it that foreign fishermen cannot fish within three miles of habitable land, or is it the fact that where the distance from headland to headland is less than 15 miles, foreign fishermen cannot fish within that base line from headland to headland? I want to bring to the Minister's notice that the distance between Hook Head in Wexford and the Big Saltee Island is 11 miles, and that foreign trawlers are allowed to operate within that baseline. I understood that when the baseline was less than 15 miles, foreign trawlers could not operate inside it. It was brought to my notice that there is a map or a chart described as "Close's Irish Sea—St. George's and North Channel" on which there is a black thick line which is supposed to be the three-mile territorial limit. That is supposed to be the limit within which foreign trawlers cannot operate. There is also on that map or chart a thin red line indicating that trawling inside that limit is prohibited at all times.
I should like the Minister to do the best he can, in the time at his disposal, to answer some of these questions and particularly to say what exactly is the three-mile limit. I should also like him to say whether or not the Irish Government propose to seek to extend the three-mile limit, because that is what the Irish fishermen want, in view of the fact that their boats are not equipped to trawl in what is regarded as deep sea. Because they confine themselves to the inshore, it means they must have greater waters within which to fish. It is a serious problem and it has affected, and will affect, the livelihood of 500 fishermen in that part of the country. I trust that the Minister and his Department will try to do something to alleviate the difficulties of these men.
I shall keep the House only a few minutes as there are other Deputies who wish to speak. I want to make two points. There are left to-day only two rich fishing centres in Europe; one is off Iceland and the other off Ireland. The Icelandic Government have taken action to protect their fisheries and it is quite obvious that unless the Irish Government take some action to extend our territorial waters and prevent the inroads on their fisheries——
I do not think, Sir, that the question of the extension of our territorial waters is mentioned in the motion. The motion before me does not mention that matter and it is not one for the Minister for Defence.
The encroachment of foreign fishermen on the south-east coast is the matter under discussion.
I shall just say that our territorial waters are inadequate and leave it at that. The Minister knows quite well that what Deputy Corish has said is true; the fishermen themselves said it and it was publicly stated in the Press. The other point I have to make is that to protect your fishing, you have got to surprise the marauding fishermen. I have said it before in this House that if you are trying to protect your fishing fleet by corvettes which can be seen on a clear day up to 20 miles away—they are hung up right out of the sea—you are not going to get near these marauding trawlers and catch them. If you had even a trawler itself manned by naval personnel, as is done in other countries, you could easily come up to these poachers.
About a month ago, I asked a question about this matter and the Minister for Lands said that there were no foreign trawlers here. Anyone who saw the photograph in the Sunday Independent last Sunday could see one of the biggest fishing fleets ever before seen off our coast. Unless the Government face the situation realistically and realise what the fishermen of that part of the country are up against, their livelihood will cease to exist. They are being outfished by a stronger type of boat and unless we are prepared to give the fishermen facilities and proper protection, they will have no future here.
May I suggest that Deputies should limit their speeches ?
I simply want to endorse what Deputy Corish has said. Last Sunday there was a meeting of the fishing interests of most of the maritime counties, and the people connected with them, in Dunmore East, and the substance of their protest was exactly what Deputy Corish had said, that foreign trawlers are coming within the three-mile limit and that their method of fishing, and the kind of gear they have, is doing irreparable damage to the fish spawning grounds all along the coast. That coast has been noted as excellent spawning ground for centuries back and damage is being done by these better equipped trawlers which are bigger than our boats and the Irish fishermen have no hope at all of competing with them.
I should like to ask the Minister if he would consider either the purchase or securing on loan from the British Government of a helicopter or number of helicopters? To my mind, the difficulty of using the corvettes is the question of coming across the trawlers when they are inside the three-mile limit. With the use of radio telephony, a helicopter could render invaluable service by directing the corvettes to the actual scene when the poaching is going on. In that way, more arrests could be carried out and more protection afforded to the grounds. Whatever the Minister intends to do, I would appeal for an immediate decision on the matter.
I want to reiterate what Deputies Corish and Kyne and Deputy Sir Anthony Esmonde have said about this matter. It is no harm to say in criticism of the Ministers that they took no notice and said that there were no foreign trawlers. I have been pointing out this for I do not know how many years, that there is an armada there and there is always an armada down there when the fish begin to run. Those vessels fish in and out of the three-mile limit. The Cliona and the Macha are doing as good a job as they can in a big area which stretches from Helvick Head to Carnsore Point and it is a physical impossibility for the captains of these vessels to make more captures. I agree with what Deputy Kyne said. Air reconnaissance would be a great help and it would be worth while. There must be millions of pounds worth of fish being taken from our seas and irreparable damage being done to the spawning beds.
The matter of protection is the whole point for the Minister and it would be a great help to the Cliona and the Macha, if they were equipped with fast launches. Such launches would be a great help in spotting out these poachers and making captures. As far as the fines are concerned, I think a £25 fine is only nominal. Of course if the gear is taken away, it is a very heavy fine. I believe the captain of a German trawler had to deposit £4,000 against his gear and his catch. I think that what should be done is not to confiscate the gear but to fine the trawlers very heavily, to the extent of some thousands of pounds. If that were not a success, I should be in agreement with the suggestion of Deputy Corish, that their boats should be confiscated.
The Naval Service provides fishery protection to the limit of its capabilities and during this period of the very large run of herrings on the south-east coast, the Naval Service has been paying particular attention to that area. The arrival of these large boats, of course, and the consequent concentration of fishing trawlers of many nations in the area, and the spectacular catches made, have been a very good news item and many rumours that circulated in the area have received a great deal of prominence. Apparently some of the Deputies who have spoken have accepted all these rumours on their face value without making any effort——
Shame on you. We talked to the fishermen, which is more than you did. If you are going to approach it in that sort of way, you might as well sit down.
The allegations have been made that all these boats are fishing inside our limits. That is not the fact——
It was not stated here.
It was said that there were French, Dutch and German trawlers, all fishing within the three-mile limit. I think that was said and will appear in the Official Report. That is not the fact. Most of the fishing has been taking place at quite considerable distances from our shores, at distances averaging from six to eight miles. Since this run of herring came the Macha has been on patrol there from the very outset.
I was pressed in the Dáil in the month of November by Deputy Sir Anthony Esmonde to make known in advance what our plans were for dealing with this situation when the herring arrived. I pointed out it would not be desirable to give that information in advance and now the Deputy who pressed me to give it talked about the necessity for surprise. In actual fact, the area has been patrolled from the very start and fishing has been taking place in a restricted area comparatively easy to patrol. That is my information, and the officers of the Naval Service are satisfied there were no gross infringements of our territorial waters and that the allegations being made are not, in fact, true.
However, five arrests have been made. Four of the skippers concerned have been charged and convictions secured. The fifth arrest was made only to-day and the case has not been heard yet, so far as I know. The five arrests to which I have referred were all base-line cases: there was no case of flagrant violation of the three-mile limit. These cases were not actually within three miles of the land but within the limits of the base lines drawn from head to head to which Deputy Corish referred. Convictions were secured and fines were imposed. So far as the fines were concerned, I have no function. The Naval Service merely acts as agent for the Minister for Lands and, of course, the courts decide cases in accordance with law. The gear and the fish were confiscated and I know that in one case as much as 75 tons of fish were confiscated, in addition to gear.
If the gear is bought back, as Deputy Corish says for very small prices, that, again, is not the responsibility of the Minister for Defence. We arrest these trawlers, bring the skippers to court and prove our case. It is all right for people to say these trawlers are fishing within the three-mile limit, but the officers of the Naval Service must be able to stand up in court and prove they were, in fact, inside the three-mile limit. In the arrests made so far, they have been able to prove that, but these cases are being appealed which shows that the skippers of the trawlers, apparently, think or thought, or claimed they thought, they were in fact outside the three-mile limit. Because of the appeals, I think these cases should be regarded as being still sub judice.
Fishing down there has been taking place in a restricted area and the officers of the Naval Service operating there say it was comparatively easy to patrol the area and that the presence of the second boat, the Cliona, was hardly necessary. Really, it was brought there only in an attempt to boost the morale of our own fishermen. The Naval Service officers believe the Macha was quite capable of patrolling the area effectively and that even if we had other boats there, they would be unnecessary. While I agree that, generally speaking, the Naval Service is inadequate to patrol the whole of our coast line, in this case the area concerned was only a small one and I believe the patrolling was done quite effectively, and that the arrests made and the penalties imposed have induced a healthy respect in these foreign trawlers for the efficiency of our patrol boats.
Deputy Sir Anthony Esmonde said that I said there were no foreign trawlers there, but that was in reply to a Parliamentary Question on 6th November. I do not say now there are no foreign trawlers in the area. There are, of course; but I can say the area is being effectively patrolled and that there is no wholesale or flagrant violation of our exclusive fishery rights.
I do not know if there is anything else I have to say. If it had been a case of our having been taken unawares, I have no doubt there would be reasonable cause for complaint, but the area has been patrolled from the very start and I think that, taking account of all the factors, the situation has been satisfactorily dealt with and I believe that the local fishermen are quite satisfied that their interests have been protected. Of course, they would like us, no doubt, to prevent foreign trawlers from taking the huge catches of fish, but as the law stands at the moment, we cannot do that. We can patrol only within the three-mile limit——
Would the Minister define the three-mile limit? There is some confusion about it.
Deputy Corish did ask that question. There is no confusion, so far as the officers of the Naval Service are concerned. They know exactly what the three-mile limit is. They must prove it in court and have proved in court successfully that these trawlers were within the limits, although they themselves apparently maintained they were not. What Deputy Corish said about base lines is correct and it is on these base lines that our Naval Service operates.
Would the Minister please tell us what the three-mile limit is and make it quite clear what the territorial limit means, and from what point it operates?
It would not be possible to give that information as easily as that.
Suppose I asked the Minister a question to-morrow, with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, could we get a definition then?
A definition of the extent of the base lines?
Of the three-mile limit for fishing.
Yes, I can get that for the Deputy and give it to him.
There must be some doubt about it when the foreigners are contesting it and appealing their cases.
Of course it is we who fix these base lines——
We are not criticising the Minister or the Department. Neither are we criticising the Naval Service.
I am quite aware of that, but I am saying that we have had two ships there in a small area, not a large area, and the Naval Service Officers are satisfied there are no gross infringements of our exclusive fishery rights in that area at this particular period.
That will be great consolation to the foreign fishermen.
The foreign fishermen have been kept outside our exclusive fishery rights. No doubt due to the fact that they have superior boats and superior equipment, they have gained the greatest benefit from this influx of herring off our shores. That is not our fault. That cannot be helped. Since they have superior craft and superior numbers, they are bound to get superior catches, but in the main there is no doubt these catches were made outside the limits of our exclusive fishery rights. That is my information, that there certainly was not in this case any inadequacy in our Naval Service because they were there waiting for this to occur and the area has been patrolled effectively from the very start. I have no doubt infringements do take place from time to time on account of the smallness of our Naval Service and the extent of the coast we have to patrol, but in this case we have been concentrating there and I am assured it was done effectively.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 14th January, 1959.