Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 3 Mar 1959

Vol. 173 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Tourism.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. S. Lemass)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £39,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1959, for a Grant to Bord Fáilte Éireann (No. 5 of 1955) and for certain additional Grants-in-Aid.

The purpose of this Supplementary Estimate is to provide a sum of £39,000 to meet payments which are expected to arise in the present financial year in respect of three matters, namely, the improvement of transatlantic passenger facilities at Cobh, grants for the development of major tourist resorts and grants for the provision of new hotel bedrooms.

The total grant made to Bord Fáilte Éireann for the current financial year was £440,000, but this amount is insufficient to meet the payments which will arise before the 31st March next in respect of the three projects which I have mentioned.

At my request Bord Fáilte Éireann has during the past year reviewed the adequacy of the accommodation and the facilities at Cobh for transatlantic passenger traffic. The board became satisfied, as a result of the review which it had carried out, that a higher standard of passenger facilities was desirable in the interests of tourism. In the board's opinion it is necessary to provide for the enlargement of the customs examination area and for the provision of waiting accommodation for the convenience of friends and relations of arriving and departing tourists. The tendency in recent years towards road transport as the popular means of conveyance of passengers to and from the Cobh terminal has resulted in greater numbers of people visiting Cobh for the purpose of meeting or seeing off transatlantic passengers. It is now estimated by the board that 75 per cent. of the passenger traffic to and from Cobh in connection with the liner services is by road.

As regards customs examination space, the board has pointed out that 300 passengers and their baggage can at present be dealt with in one operation. There is a measure of discomfort for the passengers when the number exceeds 250 but when it exceeds 300 the discomfort involved becomes quite acute. During the season the numbers disembarking are frequently in excess of 300 at one time. It is estimated that almost half of the total eastbound traffic each year for the past few years has been handled in crowded and somewhat uncomfortable conditions. Deputies will appreciate that Cobh is our principal transatlantic seaport and an important terminal for tourist traffic from North America. A high standard of service and of passenger accommodation is provided by the shipping companies operating on this route. the interests of encouraging and expanding seaborne tourist traffic from North America it is imperative that Bord Fáilte Éireann consider that in shore facilities at Cobh for the handling of the traffic should be brought up to a proper standard of comfort and efficiency.

The improvements which are to be carried out are on C.I.E. property and they will be executed also by C.I.E. under an arrangement with Bord Fáilte Éireann. The works have already commenced. It is hoped that they will be completed in time for the coming tourist season. Efforts were made by the board to get other interested parties to contribute something towards the cost of the scheme but I am sorry to say these efforts were not successful. Accordingly, the full cost of the scheme. estimated at £35,000, will have to be borne by Bord Fáilte Éireann. In the present financial year a total sum of £27,500 will be required of which £7,500 will be provided by the board out of its existing Grant-in-Aid funds and the remaining £20,000 will be provided in this Supplementary Estimate. The balance of the total cost, the remaining £7,500, will be met by the board out of its grant for 1959-60.

In 1951 certain improvements were carried out in the passenger handling facilities at Cobh but these improvements are inadequate in the light of present-day conditions. Since 1951, the numbers of passengers disembarking at one time have tended to get bigger, with the result that the customs examination area is now too small. Furthermore in 1951 improvements were planned on the assumption that the bulk of the internal passenger traffic to and from Cobh would move by rail, whereas, in fact, the tendency over the past few years has been for more and more passengers to travel by road.

As announced in the White Paper on Economic Expansion the Government have decided to set aside at least £1,000,000 to assist, by way of grants, the financing of a ten year programme for the provision of amenities at major tourist resorts. The new grants, which will supplement expenditure from local resources and the guaranteed loan facilities already available through Bord Fáilte Éireann, will be confined to non-revenue earning works and are intended to enable such essential items as the provision of promenades, parks and other similar basic developments to be undertaken. The grants will be subject to two conditions, namely, that the works to be carried out at any resort will form part of a fully coordinated plan of development for that resort and that a substantial local contribution will be forthcoming either from a local development group or company or from the local authority concerned. The scheme will be administered by Bord Fáilte Éireann.

I am very anxious that the programme for the development and improvement at our major tourist resorts should get under way as soon as possible. At my request, Bord Fáilte Éireann has been in consultation with local authorities, local development companies and other local groups with the object of arousing interest in the scheme and stimulating activity on the part of these local bodies. The board hopes to get this scheme started in the present financial year. It has indicated that works can proceed immediately in a number of holiday resorts. The probable expenditure up to the end of this month is put at about £10,000.

A new scheme of grants for hotels was introduced last May to encourage hotel owners to provide more accommodation for tourists. The scheme, which, again, is administered by Bord Fáilte Éireann, applies to tourist hotels and motels. Grants are made under the scheme to cover portion of the cost of providing additional bedrooms and bedroom-bathroom units. The grants cover 20 per cent. of the cost involved, subject to maximum limits which range from £275 for a double bedroom with bath to £175 in the case of a single bedroom without bath. Where central heating is installed a further grant of one-third of the cost, subject to a maximum limit of £25 per bedroom, is payable. It is anticipated that some ten projects involving grants totalling £9,000 will be completed before the end of this financial year.

Next year and in subsequent financial years, the maximum annual grant of £500,000 at present payable to Bord Fáilte Éireann will be inadequate to cover the cost of resort development and hotel bedroom grants. Accordingly, I propose to bring before the House in the near future a new Tourist Traffic Bill to provide the additional funds which will be required to finance these two schemes on a long term basis.

I feel there will be here general agreement regarding the desirability of incurring the expenditure for which provision is made in this Estimate. Therefore, I recommend that the House should approve of the Estimate.

Mr. Cosgrave

There is undoubtedly general agreement that tourism is a valuable trade for this country. It provides revenue; it promotes trade dispersed over a wide area. In fact, it is decentralised in the best sense and offers possibilities for further development. I have always held the view that we have never fully exploited the possibilities here in the way in which they could be exploited. On the other hand, it is often difficult to see what tangible results are achieved from a good deal of the expenditure and arrangements that are made. Due to, perhaps, a variety of causes in the past, An Bord Fáilte has not functioned as effectively as it might. I do not want to discuss the reasons now for that; I only hope that it will be possible for the board and all concerned, with the very considerable sums that are being placed at their disposal, to promote a further influx of tourists.

When the American experts visited here a number of years ago, they recommended strongly that certain steps should be taken to extend the tourist season. As a result of that, An Tóstal was initiated. I think nobody is happy about the results of that scheme. Perhaps in a matter of this sort it was not possible to proceed otherwise than by trial and error, but certainly we have had enough experience now of the working of the Tóstal to consider what changes are necessary or desirable. In that regard, I believe that insufficient attention is being paid to specific festivals or events for particular localities. A number of specific events and festivals have been undertaken in various parts of the country very much by, or as a result of, local endeavour and initiative, and I believe that they have attracted more tourists and brought more people to the localities than any events of the Tóstal, as it was organised heretofore.

In addition, I believe that An Bord Fáilte should consider, where possible, promoting or attracting conferences or congresses here. Admittedly in that respect, regard must be had to the availability of these conferences or congresses and also to the interests of the bodies concerned and the suitability of this country, or particular parts of it. The effect of having a conference in a locality, more especially if it is possible to hold it in the off-season, or at the beginning or end of the season, is very considerable. I suppose in a matter of this sort, while tourism benefits the country as a whole, many of us are constrained to consider it from the point of view of our own constituency. Certainly those of us who, like myself, represent a constituency which benefits to a considerable extent from the tourist or holiday trade, have a special interest in it. Therefore, I welcome the provision for increased bedroom accommodation and the money which it is proposed to make available for resort development.

There, again, close attention to local interests and local needs should be paid by Bord Fáilte, in collaboration with local development companies, if such exist, and the various local authorities. In my own constituency of Dún Laoghaire, quite a number of matters require attention which grants of this sort should make possible. Very often for a comparatively small expenditure, improvements, or better amenities, can be provided which prove attractive to visitors and to tourists. It is for that reason that consultation with the local authorities concerned and with the local interests is important.

In connection with the provision for improved accommodation, I should like to know from the Minister whether such improvements will involve any revaluation of the premises. If this proposal—even though a grant is provided —involves a revaluation as a result of an improvement, it will undoubtedly act as a deterrent. The holiday season here for most parts of the country, if not for all areas, is a short one, and the fact that hoteliers and proprietors of guest houses may find themselves liable for increased valuation means that they will regard it as a deterrent, despite the attractions of a grant. For that reason, I believe that consideration should be given to an amendment of the law, if such is necessary, to prevent a revaluation taking place.

I do not know whether it is possible at this stage to say what resort developments are contemplated in the immediate future, or whether that depends on consultation between the board and the various local authorities concerned. In some cases, particular events attract tourists and visitors, and so far as the area itself is concerned, it does not really matter if they are visitors or tourists, as long as the overall effect is to promote business and bring trade. So far as the main holiday centres are concerned certainly they are areas which, to a large extent, depend on them for business.

The energies of Bord Fáilte should be devoted towards extending the holiday season and on the other hand, promoting conferences, or congresses, or gatherings of one sort or another, at the beginning or at the end of the holiday season, as a means of extending that season. In that regard, close consultation with various bodies is essential. I believe that many of the facilities which are now available for improvements should act as a further incentive, and for that reason, I welcome this proposal and hope that care will be taken to see that the money is expended wisely and with the object of utilising it to the maximum advantage of the localities as well as of the country.

Mr. McQuillan

I should like to ask if it would be at all possible to let us know how exactly An Bord Fáilte arrives at its figure for the income derived from tourism. There are quite a number of people at the moment who are, rightly or wrongly, critical of a certain type of expenditure by An Bord Fáilte and I think some of this criticism may be wrongly directed because of lack of proper information as to what An Bord Fáilte is accomplishing and what the total income from tourism is.

I have tried to find out the method by which certain figures of tourist income are arrived at. I have not been able to get anything like reasonable information in that regard. We are told that the tourist trade is second in importance to the cattle trade as a source of income to the State. That statement was made by responsible people and the least they might do is to give us the method by which those figures are arrived at, in order to satisfy the general public as to the accuracy of such statements.

From inquiries I have made, it would appear that if the ordinary Irish man and woman returning home from even a fortnight's stay in Britain register in a hotel in Dublin on the way back to rural Ireland, they appear in the figures for tourists. I also understand that people going to the West of Ireland on their annual holidays from Britain who stay overnight in Dublin also appear on the list of tourists. Such people could be described as migrants who come back here in the summer time or come back twice a year, such as is common in Donegal and Connemara. If such people appear in the tourist figures, I think it is unfair for Bord Fáilte or any other body to suggest that they are tourists, because it is not due to the influence of Bord Fáilte or anybody else that they come here. If we broke down the figures, I think we would find in one way or another that 80 per cent. of the people described as tourists are Irish men and women coming back here from work either in Britain or America.

On the law of averages, the more people we export from this country through emigration, the more we will have coming back on holidays, if conditions are good in the country to which they go. In recent years, conditions have been good in Britain, with the result that Irish men and women there have been able to take holidays. That is why I ask, when we are told tourism is our second best industry: does the description of tourism as our second best industry depend on the export of Irish people? Is it not a fact that if emigration figures had been reduced drastically over the past ten or 15 years, we would not have anything like the number of people described today as tourists.

However, when I criticise this method of assessing the income from tourism, I should like to see us getting down to brass tacks in regard to the tourist industry. While there is great justification for increasing hotel accommodation in tourist resorts, in my opinion, there is a limit to what can be done in that connection. Over the past few years, the aim has been to extend the tourist season at both ends. As Deputy Cosgrave pointed out, one of the means adopted to that end was the introduction of An Tóstal, and we know the flop that was. One of the things we are up against here, above all, is the weather. No matter what facilities we put at the disposal of tourists, we cannot guarantee them fine weather.

Mr. Cunningham

Maybe they do not want it.

Mr. McQuillan

Deputy Cunningham is merely bringing out the point I am on. We must concentrate on the type of tourist not really interested in fine weather, but I am afraid our drive is not in that direction. If we are to make grants available for bedroom accommodation in seaside resorts, I believe there is a greater argument for giving priority to hotel accommodation and the guest rooms in fishing resorts, whether on the coastline or inland.

A number of people are beginning to realise now that the fishing tourist is the soundest of the whole lot, whether he is interested in sea fishing or inland fishing. That aspect of tourism deserves priority at this stage. I do not think this or any other Government will have large funds available to experiment with means of extending the tourist season at both ends. We cannot afford to continue making mistakes like the Tóstal, which dishearten people who would like to see the tourist trade expand. When funds are available, it is most desirable that we channel them into lines which will give the greatest return.

Again, if we are able to produce facts for the general public, there will be more agreement as to the necessity for the expenditure. If we are told that the tourist trade as a whole is worth £30,000,000 a year, let the people responsible in the Statistics Office, Bord Fáilte, or whoever they may be, break down the figures and give us the figures of income derived from the fishing tourist. I know it may be a difficult thing to do. At the moment, we have development committees for the lakes and rivers inland and tourist committees at some of our ports and points near the sea where sea fishing is a good proposition. It should not be difficult to estimate the financial return from those people utilising these resorts in pursuit of their hobby, fishing.

Before we entice tourists in here, it is desirable that we should ensure that the facilities they want are available to them. Judging by the publicity in Britain in recent years, the aim seems to be to attract the "super-duper" tourist. Possibly it is not fair to criticise An Bord Fáilte for its efforts to attract wealthy people here, but at least the same amount of money should be made available to attract the ordinary man, the ordinary man who may prevail upon his friends to follow in his footsteps. It would be more desirable to spend money attracting that type of tourist rather than direct one's attention almost entirely to people who would probably prefer to holiday in the South of France, Hawaii or some such places.

The tourist who is interested in fishing is not interested in elaborate and luxurious accommodation. He wants cleanliness, good food and plenty of fishing. His requirements are simple and can be met without the expenditure of a great deal of money. Some funds should be channelled into attracting that type of tourist. Indeed, money would be better spent in that direction rather than in festivals, or any other way. If one town has a festival, the neighbouring town immediately decides they must have a festival, too. I have nothing against festivals, but, if there is to be a festival, then let it be a good one and something which will attract visitors.

Conventions have been mentioned. It must be remembered, in relation to conventions, that we are off the beaten track. As far as Europeans are concerned, they prefer London, Paris, Rome, or somewhere like that. I do not want to be taken as against the idea of attracting conventions to this country. All I am anxious to ensure is that the right order of priority will be kept. We have a potential tourist market in Britain so far as fishermen are concerned and every effort should be made to attract the fisherman tourist to this country. Fishing is not dependent upon weather conditions and fishermen are not unduly worried if the day is wet or the sun fails to shine. So far as weather is concerned, we have very little to offer tourists in our holiday resorts when the weather is bad. Is it the intention to spend money developing these resorts, equipping them with the facilities which the tourist finds in Monte Carlo, and elsewhere? Or is it the intention to spend money developing those resorts where the tourist will not be interested in the weather? I am interested in the question of priorities and, in my opinion, priority should be given to the fishing side of it.

Co-operation between Bord Fáilte and the travel agencies in general needs more attention. At the moment, C.I.E. are making week-end excursion tickets available to people in Westport, Galway, Killarney, Limerick and so forth to enable them to spend from Saturday night to Monday morning in Dublin. The fare for the week-end is equivalent to the single fare journey. If Bord Fáilte co-operates properly with C.I.E., they will insist that this arrangement be reciprocal and that people who wish to travel from Dublin to these places will be accorded the same facility. It is only when things like this are brought to the notice of C.I.E. by a body like An Bord Fáilte that we can hope to get anything done.

I would not raise this matter were it not for the fact that, when I tried to put down a question, I found I was stymied by the rules of procedure. I was told that the Minister had no responsibility. Therefore, I am glad to take the opportunity of making it as clear as I possibly can and of bringing it under the particular Estimate as well as I possibly can, because I believe that the questions of Bord Fáilte and C.I.E. are ones which in general at any rate the Minister has responsibility for. I would not go any further than to ask him to bring that point to the notice of Bord Fáilte and to have the facilities that are made available for the people in the rural areas available to the people in the cities. These arrangements should be reciprocal.

What we find is that well-intentioned people sit down in the city and devise ways and means of making money for their own particular State body. The very fact that they are stuck in Dublin very often leaves their mind far removed from what might be good for the country as a whole. It is only when an opportunity is given to people who are based in the rural areas to give their views and find that a certain amount of heed is given that we can get proper satisfaction and results.

I, therefore, request the Minister to get Bord Fáilte to have a consultation with C.I.E. on this matter, because it is of importance not only for those whom we might describe as the tourist who goes down the country but also for the people who might come back from Manchester, Liverpool or London on a Friday night and who might like the opportunity of going to Westport, Castlerea, Roscommon or Galway at the excursion fare which is now available to persons from Galway and Roscommon coming to Dublin. I think there is nothing wrong with that cutting both ways.

I think it is very important because we find the people who live in the country towns are hard hit as things are at the moment and there is no very great sign of an improvement taking place. If we want to get their co-operation and goodwill for a tourist industry, then we must get their goodwill through C.I.E., Bord Fáilte and other State bodies. You will not get the goodwill of those people unless they see that their predicament will not be made worse than it is at the moment.

Nobody disputes the fact that it is of advantage to the people in rural areas to get to Dublin for a bit of shopping. They are entitled to that. It is desirable to provide that opportunity once a week, but at the same time facilities should be given to the rural areas to attract down the country those people from Dublin who would like to go down. There is only one way of doing that, that is, by making the facilities available to those people who want to come down.

Do not give the impression to the people in the West and South of Ireland that everything must be channelled into the city. If we see co-operation between Bord Fáilte and C.I.E. on a matter like that, it will restore the confidence that is missing at the moment with regard to a mentality which we feel is portrayed by the minds of the people charged with the responsibility of running such bodies.

Mr. Cunningham

The Minister in this Estimate is making provision for what I regard to be three very important items. I think that the first one is the most important one. It has been in the minds of people who are interested in attracting tourists to our country that every effort should be made by our customs authorities to facilitate the entry of tourists here, that no obstacle should be put in their way and that whatever customs formalities are required—and they are required, we admit—should be as expeditious as possible and that these examinations should be carried out with as little trouble as possible to the incoming tourist. By doing what is proposed in No. 1 of this Supplementary Estimate, that is by providing in Cobh extra accommodation, the Minister is thinking along the right lines.

I should like to say to the Minister that Cobh is only one point of entry to our country and that an eye should be kept on the facilities, the method of examining the baggage of passengers and the general attitude of the customs authorities, at all the major points of entry at least. It is not very much good for the Minister to provide the facilities by way of extra accommodation, if the ordinary customs men have the feeling that an inspector of the Revenue Commissioners is hiding somewhere and spying on their activities.

It would be well for the customs men to know how far they should go. The regulations are very strict. A customs man may think that it is not enough to open up a case. He may have the fear, as many of them have at the moment——

An Ceann Comhairle

Is this the Estimate upon which to raise this matter?

Mr. Cunningham

Well, the Minister——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister has no control over custom officers, as far as I know.

Mr. Cunningham

The Minister is easing or facilitating the entry of tourists and I am pointing out that it is a very important thing to do.

An Ceann Comhairle

It may be very important, but is it relevant? Has the Minister control over it? Can the Minister administer it?

Mr. Cunningham

Strictly speaking, in this Estimate, he is not concerned with anything other than the provision of accommodation, but I think that on this occasion the proper thing for me to do is to point out the other part of the landing transaction where the tourist is concerned. Most countries have realised that it is very necessary to provide all the best possible facilities for tourists when they enter and again when they leave the country. It is very aggravating for people who have travelled long journeys by air or by sea to find they have to queue or that they have long delays at customs, at ports or at frontier posts. By a provision such as this, the Minister can make it very attractive and less delaying for our tourists. If he could emphasise upon the Minister concerned the desirability of the other matter which I have raised, it would also help very much.

I was surprised that Deputy McQuillan thought it would not be wise to make all this provision, all this over-provision which he feels is being made for tourist resorts. The provision of better facilities in our tourist resorts is the best method of securing the decentralisation, which most of us desire. Our aim should be, not to cater for our tourists in the big cities and towns, but to persuade them to visit the various tourist resorts and the small towns in the country. It is good to note that most of the resorts have very active and very useful development committees which are making an honest effort to help themselves. These committees have been doing very good work since they were formed and, in many cases, they are perfect examples of local co-operation and initiative. It is only right that the Government should come to their assistance in the way visualised in this Supplementary Estimate.

The Grant-in-Aid for additional bedroom accommodation is a grant which has been in operation since the middle of 1958. Until then, hoteliers had to depend solely upon loans. Hotel accommodation is the number one attraction for tourists and food comes second, so that when hoteliers are facilitated as they are being facilitated by this Supplementary Estimate and make extra and better bedroom provision, they are, in an extensive way, helping our tourist industry. The addition of the new bedrooms and bedrooms with bathroms and central heating will, when this programme is in operation for some time, be a big capital asset to our tourist industry. The grants which range from £275 down to £175 are a fair portion of the cost—at least, they are an attractive portion and one which should encourage many small hoteliers to enlarge their premises in such a way that the enlargement will be of benefit to themselves and pleasing to tourists.

Mr. Dillon

I should like to ask the Minister how much would it cost —has he any idea?—to provide for a year that any tourist wishing to bring his motor-car to this country could do so for nothing or at a nominal cost of, say, £1—transport from Great Britain to Ireland. I am told it costs more to bring a car to Ireland than to any continental country, that is, travelling from Great Britain. The facilities here are deplorable, and when you bear in mind that if you could induce the tourist to bring his car, it usually means, instead of one person, three or four come in a family party and pay revenue duty of something like one shilling a gallon for every gallon of petrol they consume, it seems to me that it would be a well worthwhile proposition to make a drastic effort to improve facilities for bringing cars——

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not seem to arise relevantly on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

Oh, Sir—the general purpose of An Bord Fáilte!

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not know what it is.

Mr. Dillon

I am now suggesting something it might well be.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has a wide field, unless the Minister tells us what it is about.

Mr. Dillon

Will the Minister think about it? The present position is that this is the most difficult country in Europe to bring a car into. I should like to make it the easiest, even at considerable cost for a period of years, after which time if one could popularise this place as a place to take a motoring holiday, the position might even be that no subsidisation of freight rates would be necessary.

That is the first matter to which I wish to refer. The second is this. Deputy McQuillan seems to be under a misapprehension. I am glad to pay tribute to An Bord Fáilte for the help they willingly provided to the Inland Fisheries Trust right from the first time they were asked to provide it. It was one of the most gratifying and satisfactory experiences I had as Minister that when I approached An Bord Fáilte to meet the Inland Fisheries Trust with me to discuss developments, unlike what so often happens where inter-departmental jealousies often frustrate good intentions, there was no evidence whatever of that, and there was an understanding and intelligent approach to the whole problem, as a result of which I think a great deal has been done for the improvement of the inland fisheries of this country.

In that context, I only want to say that I hope the Minister for Industry and Commerce will continue to give the same encouragement to An Bord Fáilte to co-operate with the Inland Fisheries Trust as did his predecessor. I have no doubt the Minister will do the same. I would, however, say—I do not wish to be thought of as a carping critic—that I agree with Deputy McQuillan in so far as he says that we ought to emphasise the things in which we are in a position, as he says, to be really outstanding. Our fishing facilities for salmon, trout and coarse fish are as good as or better than any which can be found in Western Europe or any place else, and they are capable of steady improvement. It is well within our resources to maintain them where they are excellent and to bring them up to the level of excellence where they are no more than good.

I am not sure that that is true of our deep-sea fishing amenities. I have seen deep-sea fishing off the coast of Australia, off the Florida coast, and off the coast of Southern California, which are the great deep-sea fishing waters where you get deep-sea sporting fish. It is that kind of fishing which is ordinarily associated with travel abroad for deep-sea fishing. It is perfectly true that in the waters surrounding this country, you get large fish, but as to whether it is prudent to seek to establish internationally that we have deep-sea fishing facilities which compare favourably with those ordinarily associated with the sport, I think is open to doubt. I think we could overemphasise that aspect of our sporting facilities, to the grave detriment of our publicity in respect of amenities here which need be second to none. But a great many people attach so much importance to sporting fish in inland waters that they underestimate the attraction of coarse fishing. It is perfectly true that salmon and trout, for a considerable body of persons, are their prime concern with fishing, but for a much larger body of persons, who are much more likely to confine their holiday-making to Ireland, coarse fishing is the attraction.

I want to make this suggestion which I have made before—but nobody listens to you in this country until you have said something ten or 12 times, and then somebody begins to prick up his ears—we have a potential in the Royal Canal and the Grand Canal as valuable fishing waters, if they were properly developed with coarse fish— and they are. If nothing is done to maintain them as a fishing amenity— and it is manifest policy that C.I.E. is to be allowed to abandon them—if they are abandoned, those of us who have some knowledge of abandoned canals, like the Royal Ulster Canal in County Monaghan, realise they become not only a public menace but a public eyesore.

If we made them really attractive by stocking them with coarse fish, several purposes would be served. One, they have the unique advantage of having a walk all around them which was originally designed for the horses which drew the boats; secondly, they bring tourist traffic into various parts of the country where there is no other tourist attraction; and, thirdly, it is important to remember how easily one can underestimate the attraction coarse fishing in them has until you go to the black areas in the North of England. There you find rows of responsible citizens along a canal, the smell of which would lift the hat off your head and the colour of which would amaze you, solemnly fishing with cork and float, in waters in which to our eyes one would not dream of taking a fish.

Then you discover, to your amazement, that that stretch of canal is the property of a corporation ward of these citizens and one of the conditions is that they put all the fish they catch back in again. There you find one of these energetic citizens catching a fish four inches long, detaching it from his cast, throwing it into the canal and then going on to catch the same fish again and throw it back in once more. It is an extraordinary thing that they manage to take a fish at all. If you look at the water, it is surprising, but, in fact, fish are thrown back by agreement, so that the anglers will not completely denude these canals of the limited sort of fish which is indigenous to them.

To such people, therefore, well stocked canal waters, easily accessible, and where inexpensive guest-house accommodation would rapidly become available for visitors, without any such restriction on their activities over unlimited lengths of waters, is, I think, a facility which would draw a very large tourist population to this country. Deputy McQuillan would be wrong if he thought nothing was being done on that line. A great deal is being done by An Bord Fáilte and the Inland Fisheries Trust. All I am suggesting is that more might be done. It would greatly help if the Minister responsible for this Vote would re-emphasise that the decisions taken by his predecessor in this office, of encouraging Bord Fáilte to give every facility they can to the Inland Fisheries Trust, were unreservedly endorsed by him.

I think Bord Fáilte should be warmly encouraged to pursue its signposting activities and the practice of putting up descriptive plaques at all places of interest. Some Deputies here may have had the experience I had of visiting Gettysburg and its immediate vicinity in the State of Pennsylvania. There, signposting is carried to its extreme limit, with the scene of practically every event in the battle of Gettysburg being marked by descriptive plaques, scattered all over the countryside by the authorities of the State of Pennsylvania. It is an immense attraction, to any person who is interested in the civil war history, to visit that scene and to be led from site to site by authoritative plaques describing the events which actually transpired. Similar incidents may not fall to be described on such plaques in this country. Much could be done, however, by means of such facilities. There are a great many people who will pass by a place of interest and be indifferent, but there must also be a great many people who are anxious to know the local history, and who will be greatly intrigued to find a descriptive plaque where they can get a responsible body of information on the history of such a landmark.

A very good development, and one on which I congratulate Bord Fáilte, is the practice of marking the names of rivers. At present, I am discovering the names of rivers I have crossed and recrossed during the past 40 years, since Bord Fáilte began to put up names on the bridges over rivers. Anything that gives the passing tourist information about the scenery through which he is passing is of great value, and adds considerably to the amenities of the countryside. The great danger we may fall into is to imagine that that which is so familiar to us as to be pedestrian, may still reek of romance to the casual tourist who meets it for the first time.

Lastly, I think, Bord Fáilte deserve to be congratulated—and I am still talking about their general function— on the publication of the monthly illustrated bulletin, Ireland of the Welcomes. It is quite excellent. The standard is magnificent and it is a credit to the people who produce it.

I see that we have provision here for additional bedroom accommodation. Let us make up our minds about this. In so far as the American trade is concerned, "bedrooms without baths won't wash". America is greatly changed. I remember one time when I was in Castlerock—I think I told the House this before— taking a bedroom in a small hotel in the far west of the United States and, when I went to bed, the landlady came up to tell me I would not be sleeping with more than five men in the one bed. I had to barricade the door in order to prohibit the additional population with which I was threatened, but those days are gone.

Mr. O'Malley

Was that P.R?

Mr. T. Lynch

In this case, it was the non-transferable bed, the straight vote bed.

Mr. Dillon

Those days are gone and in any part of the United States to which you go now, no matter how simple the hotel, if there is any tourist attraction, the bedroom itself may be no bigger than a cabin in a ship, but it will have annexed to it a bathroom, and without that, American accommodation is quite inadequate.

There is a great deal in what Deputy McQuillan has said. But Americans are not the only tourists on the beach and people from the Continent and Britain do not attach the same passionate importance to that kind of amenity, but if we are to embark on an extensive programme of additions and improvements to hotels, every encouragement should be given to people who are adding rooms in this latter half of the twentieth century to provide, so far as possible, that there shall be annexed to any new bedroom built a bathroom, however small, provided it contains the usual amenities.

That brings us very far afield because it means that running water, sewerage and so forth, must be adequately catered for by the local authority and I do not think we can reasonably raise these matters on this Estimate. However, we must bear in mind that if a great deal of the money provided in this sort of Estimate is not to be wasted, there is a very grave obligation on local authorities, if they have any ambitions to promote tourism in their area, to see that the ancillary services such as water and sewerage are adequate and above all, water supplies, which are abundant from 11 o'clock in the morning until four in the afternoon will not do. There are too many places where the water supply is abundant for perhaps six hours of the day and for another six hours is exiguous, and for 12 hours is cut off altogether. That is an impossible situation, if you wish to draw tourists to urban areas.

Tourists will accept that kind of thing if they stay on the banks of a canal or far away from any urban centre, but if you expect to draw them into towns, they assume there will be a constant water supply and reasonable sewerage facilities. I assure the Minister that if an adequate check were made, he would be astonished to discover in how many rural areas the water supply system habitually fails and you are regarded as a crank if you object to its being turned off altogether two or three nights a week. Subject to these observations, I think this Supplementary Estimate should be passed.

Mr. Moloney

Like other Deputies, particularly those who happen to come from well-known tourist areas, I welcome the announcement regarding tourist development in the recent White Paper "Programme for Economic Expansion". There are just a few items which I wish to bring to the Minister's attention. The White Paper mentions the co-operation of local authorities. It is some months since the White Paper was issued and quite a number of local development companies and similar bodies naturally took advantage of the announcement without undue delay. In the past, many plans for development of tourist amenities were shelved because of difficulty in getting adequate grants from State sources, and more particularly because loans were not then available to meet the expenditure involved in non-revenue earning projects. The new plan provides that loans may be made available in instances where hitherto they would not be given.

Local development companies all over the country have been in touch, I expect, with An Bord Fáilte in connection with their plans. I know one or two such companies that have, in fact, contacted Bord Fáilte. It is indicated in the White Paper that the co-operation of the local authority is necessary and I ask the Minister to take steps to ensure that this co-operation will be forthcoming without undue delay. In matters of this kind, we know how difficult it is to get co-operation from the engineering departments of local authorities——

An Ceann Comhairle

I fear the Deputy is travelling pretty wide of the Estimate.

Mr. Moloney

I may be; I am sorry. I am really suggesting——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should reserve his thunder for the main Estimate.

Mr. Moloney

I appreciate that, but, with your permission, I should like to indicate——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair cannot permit anything that is not in order.

Mr. Moloney

It is not for me to question your ruling, but I suggest the point I am trying to make here is of vital importance to this Supplementary Estimate and that is why I endeavour to make it.

An Ceann Comhairle

A certain amount of money is provided here under Section 7 and it says specifically that it is for the administration and general expenses of An Bord Fáilte. That surely is not for the development of districts.

Mr. Moloney

It is under three headings and the Minister indicated that certain operations must be carried out with the co-operation of the local authority. It is because of that that I am trying to draw the Minister's attention to the apparent difficulty that existed in the past and which, in my opinion, still exists, in getting local authorities to give their co-operation in this matter.

I have reason to know that the engineering staffs of some local authorities take the view that co-operation of that sort is entirely outside the normal scope of their activities and they do not agree readily to co-operate in matters of this kind. Their co-operation is absolutely necessary; the Minister has made that clear and so has the White Paper. On page 45 it is stated as a condition:—

"... and (2) that a substantial local contribution will be forthcoming either from a local development group or from the local authority concerned."

In the previous sentence, it says:—

"That works to be carried out at any resort must form part of a fully co-ordinated plan of development for that resort...."

I shall be as brief as possible as the debate has probably already been prolonged. I ask the Minister to make an official approach through the proper channels to local authorities to ensure that their co-operation will be readily available when sought by local development companies.

I shall deal now with the scope of development it is proposed to undertake at tourist resorts. I am rather worried, however, with regard to the definition of "tourist resorts" in the statement. It refers to "major tourist resorts." I do not know what a "major tourist resort" is, because as far as I know tourist resorts here are not classified as major or otherwise. I hope An Bord Fáilte will not be too conservative when listing any resorts. In my opinion, there are many attractive resorts throughout the country in remote places that have not had an opportunity of being developed in the past. Such places, I think, should be entitled to a certain amount of priority in any plan that may now be considered. Under the development that is to take place, I understand promenades and car parks will be constructed. Those are very desirable amenities which are now lacking in most of our tourist resorts.

It is obvious that if this new plan, with regard to the development of tourism, is to succeed, local co-operation is absolutely necessary. The most desirable form of local co-operation is through limited development companies. When the tourist legislation was overhauled some few years ago, quite a number of those companies were formed throughout the country. However, as time went on, Bord Fáilte did not seem inclined to continue assisting the formation of those local bodies. Recent experience seems to indicate that the organisation we have at the moment is in the form of development associations, and these bodies are not as effective, certainly not as influential, as a limited company would be. I suggest to the Minister that he might take up this matter with Bord Fáilte in the hope that the board might see the wisdom of encouraging local areas to form companies limited by guarantees. In the past the normal legal expenses of forming such companies were paid by the board, and I am sure the board will find it possible to continue that arrangement in the future.

It is my opinion also, from the little experience I have of putting forward proposals to Bord Fáilte, that the staff of engineers in Bord Fáilte is quite inadequate. It takes a considerable period from the time a proposal is put before the board until it is possible to have that project examined locally through the board's engineering advisers. It is now absolutely necessary that the number of engineering advisers attached to the board should be increased. We are now entering a new era as far as the board is concerned, and I hope that is one of the first things the board will do.

The formation of local organisations, too, should be encouraged. There should be a recognised standard type of local organisation to deal with the administration of tourist problems in every tourist area. I hope the board will find time to take care of this important matter. With a little encouragement and co-operation from the board, many of our undeveloped tourist resorts will be able to take advantage of the assistance that is now forthcoming by way of grant or loan.

Mr. Coogan

I notice there is an increase of about £160,000 in this Vote. I would welcome this increase if I were fully satisfied as to how it will be spent. I can claim to come from one of the greatest tourist centres in this country, and, in view of the lack of industries in my area, insufficient money is being channelled into the tourist industry in Galway and the West in general. In the West, the tourist industry was built up by private enterprise. They need thank no Government for what they have built up there. They can thank God for the scenery, and all that, but they looked for little assistance from the Government.

Many hotels in the West have built additions and these additions are occupied for three or four months in the year. When hotels are not occupied all the year round the owners would be justified in getting a certain reduction in their liabilities. I would ask the Minister to use his good offices to obtain such a concession for these people. I do not wish to detract from the facilities that exist in Cobh, as have been mentioned here, or from the desirability of having them there, but I should like to remind the Minister that we have facilities second to none in Galway when it comes to a question of catering for the American tourist. We have done it before and we can do it again. We, in Galway, look forward to assistance from the Minister, now that Galway is to reopen its port to liner traffic from the United States. Galway is at least 100 miles nearer to the American Continent than any other port in Western Europe. Facilities for liners are being offered by Galway which can save a great deal of time in travel for the tourist. Already quite a number of liners have been listed for calling this year, and next year and in future years they will double and treble.

Another matter which I should like to bring to the Minister's notice is the importance of propaganda through the radio, the cinema or through the provision of films by Bord Fáilte for showing on television on the Continent. We have only scratched the surface of tourism. There is a great potential which has not yet been exploited, and a great deal can be done. The use of the radio through stations such as Luxembourg would be an advantage. Quite a number of people listen to those programmes and maybe some of our own people might hear of the facilities we have to offer.

The tendency at the moment is for the Irish tourist to travel to the Continent. Last year was an exceptional year with pilgrimages, and so on. Many of us feel that unless we travel to Spain or Paris and get that lah-di-dah atmosphere about us, we have not travelled. We should be encouraged to see Ireland first. That was one of the slogans on our postage stamps some years ago, and it is something that should be considered again. We have quite a number of people in this city who think Ireland is just outside the Phoenix Park. If they saw what this country has to offer, it might open their eyes. We should encourage our own people to see our own country as well.

I should like the Minister to use his good offices to see that a train service is provided between Galway and Dublin on Sundays during the tourist season. I do not see myself in agreement with Deputy McQuillan regarding holding conventions in this country. He said something to the effect that congresses of importance would not be held here. I would remind him that in the last year the most important congresses of all have been held in Galway and some more international congresses are listed for the coming year. Galway has the claim that it is a university city and it will facilitate them in every way. The Minister should encourage such associations to hold their congresses in this country, irrespective of where they are located.

I should like to see more money spent in tourist areas. The hotels in my area provide facilities second to none and the Tourist Board should do its part. Unfortunately, we had recently a devastating fire in what has been described as a gem in Connemara. I put it to the Tourist Board that they should come to the assistance of the community there, that one of the scenic beauties of the West is Kylemore Abbey. The tourist has always been welcome there and can see things there which are unrivalled in any part of the Continent. I put it to the board that they should give certain facilities to enable that building to be put in proper order again.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I welcome this Supplementary Estimate because it represents a national advance, to assist our second greatest industry. It is something which will help our people and help our country as it will tend towards ensuring a favourable balance of trade at the end of the year. I welcome any facilities which can be given to tourists—whether they are our own people coming home or foreigners coming in to visit our country. They are eating our food here and helping to make our country more prosperous.

I am interested in the customs facilities, as better customs facilities will be an encouragement to people coming in here. People on holiday do not wish to be knocked about too much. If the customs officers have facilities for examining baggage quickly, it creates a good impression and visitors will speak about it to their friends and be good ambassadors for us. On the few occasions when I was out of this country, I noticed, especially in France, the courtesy shown to visitors, the way people tried to make it easy for them. That was an encouragement and created a good impression.

I welcome also the grants towards the reconstruction of hotel rooms. It is a liberal grant and I hope those who have hotels and who want to reconstruct rooms will avail themselves of it. A grant of £170 for a single room is very good and it is money well spent, as it is in the national interest. I hope hotel, guest-house owners and others will avail themselves of those grants.

In regard to local amenities, this is a question on which I have been very keen for a long time. I know that the Minister for Industry and Commerce has done everything he could to encourage local tourist development associations to get grants through the Tourist Board. I feel that local authorities, especially in seaside resorts and tourist resorts, are not pulling their weight. We have tourist resorts adjacent to the City of Dublin in my own constituency; and while grants are made available for the improvement of tourist resorts, one of the most essential tourist attractions which can be given to an area is a supply of water and sewerage facilities. Legislation should be brought in to compel the local authorities to co-operate more than they co-operate at present. We had the farce in my constituency during a hot summer, of water being turned off in one of our biggest tourist areas at 7 o'clock in the evening and turned on again in the morning. Sometimes it was left on until 10 o'clock.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would be the responsibility of another Minister.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I am aware of that, but I am raising this point in regard to the third item on the Estimate, under which grants are to be given for the improvement of local amenities. I am dealing with what I believe is the greatest local amenity as regards the encouragement of tourists. There should be more co-ordination between the various Ministers on these points. I have been almost 15 years here and I have spoken on every such Estimate about the lack of these amenities in areas adjacent to the City of Dublin. We tried many times to get some co-ordination between Dublin County Council and the neighbouring local authority in regard to local amenities.

I agree with what Deputy Dillon said on this matter, that we have a long way to go before there is proper co-ordination, to assist us with the national programme which the Minister has initiated over the years and for which he is introducing the Supplementary Estimates now. All of us should do everything we can, in the national interest, to bring more visitors to our country. I had the experience of spending a fortnight touring the greater part of Ireland last year—16 days altogether—and I found in hotels I went to in the country that, unless I had telephoned from 20 or 30 miles away and said we were coming for dinner, we would not be facilitated. The ordinary tourist on tour requires better service than that. I know it may not be just of me to criticise those hotels. They cannot have meals cooked expecting A, B and C to come as, if A, B and C do not come, those meals go to loss. Certain hotels should be more accommodating to visitors. I had the experience of being on my way out of one hotel without having been served when the manager ran after me and said: "I understand you are Deputy Burke. We have a spare table now." It is not good for the tourist industry that people should not be able to get a meal at a hotel when they are passing through a district.

Mr. Norton

What are the tables for? Is it to eat or to sit at?

Mr. Burke

The visitor is informed that there is not a spare table available, that all the tables are booked up or, in some cases, that visitors were not expected on that day. I have heard criticism of that kind of thing. Hotel owners have been given great facilities and every encouragement by Bord Fáilte and by the Dáil and they should try to meet the tourists in every possible way so as to encourage them to return to this country.

There are holiday camps situated in my constituency the owners of which, while carrying on their own business, are doing work of national importance by encouraging people to come to this country. Hotel owners and holiday camp proprietors who go abroad for the purpose of encouraging tourists to come to this country should get special grants because they are our best ambassadors for the tourist industry. Bord Fáilte are doing a very good job, but encouragement should be given to those who, of their own initiative, go abroad or pay others to go abroad for the purpose of attracting tourists to this country. Such people are making heroic efforts to boost an industry which is second in importance to the cattle industry. There are other matters that I shall raise on the main Estimate. I welcome this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Norton

My contribution on this Estimate will be brief. There is no difference between the various Parties on the desirability of developing the tourist industry to the utmost limits. If there be any difference at all, it is only as to the rate at which we ought to progress and the directions on which we should lay the emphasis in our attempts to secure maximum development.

Tourism, of course, is a vital part of the national economy. Were it not for tourism and the income we derive from it, our payments would be seriously imbalanced, not merely in one year, but permanently. Tourism gets us a net income in the form of invisible exports of about £33,000,000 a year and, next to the cattle trade, is the best export we have, although grouped under invisible exports.

One of the best ways in which we can sell good wholesome food is to the stomachs of tourists who visit this country. In that way, the payment for the food is more remunerative than if it were exported in the uncooked or unprocessed state. From every point of view, tourism is not only an important element in the national economy, but a highly desirable social activity which should be cultivated because of the part it plays generally in the economy.

The only difference between the various Parties on this matter is in their anxiety as to the amount of money which it is possible to devote to advertising our tourist potential and attracting visitors to the State. In that respect, all Parties wish that more money could be devoted to propaganda aimed at attracting more visitors to the country. I still believe that there is a very substantial number of potential tourists to be found among the top-class people in England, people who save from one end of the year to the other in order to give themselves a holiday on the Continent who would find a holiday in Ireland not only invigorating and exhilarating but much cheaper than it is possible to spend a holiday at present in any country on the Continent of Europe. A holiday in Ireland for the British tourist and, indeed, for the American tourist, has the advantage that it is cheaper than a holiday in the more publicised tourist resorts on the Continent of Europe. More emphasis should be placed on that feature of holidays in Ireland in our propaganda than has been the case up to the present. It takes a lot of the good out of a holiday to realise that you have paid two or three times more for hotel accommodation and food than you would pay if you had remained in your own country and availed of the facilities it has to offer.

I hope, therefore, that even the debate on this Estimate will indicate to the Tourist Board the support which it has among all Parties in the House for an all-out drive to attract the maximum number of tourists to the country.

The Minister referred to the need for improved facilities at Cobh. That need is obvious to anybody who has the experience of going through the customs centre there. People who are completing a long sea voyage, perhaps not in the best of weather, cannot be blamed if they get irritable when, at the end of the voyage, they find the arrangements for examination of their cases not as smooth and efficient as they would wish. Any money spent in that direction at Cobh is all to the good as being calculated to give us a good name or, at all events, to avoid getting us a bad name. Money so spent is a worthwhile investment.

As we are discussing Cobh, although this is not the Minister's responsibility, he might, when discussing the amenities at Cobh, have some regard to the facilities provided for taking passengers from Cobh to the liner and from the liner to Cobh. I do not want to dwell on this at any great length, nor do I want to bring down on my head the wrath of the city fathers in Cork, or the sea lords of Cobh, but it is only too obvious to anybody who sees the tender that there is need for a new and modern tender to take passengers and goods to and from the port. The present tender is not adequate for the requirements. It is not very pleasant for passengers to have to travel on it in wet or windy weather and particularly when the seas are choppy. It would be a good investment, although it might cost more money than the local authority may have to spare at the moment, if a new tender were brought there. Present tender facilities are the subject of derisory comment by many passengers who look at the tender from the ship, when not using it, or who have occasion to use it and know that it is by no means the most pleasant method of conveyance to the middleharbour. I am sure the Minister is conscious of the need for improvements there. Anything that can be done will be all to the good in establishing amenities for our tourists.

I do not know whether or not the Tourist Board are responsible for this. If they are, they ought to be advised by somebody to be more careful in their choice of friends. A lady named Elsa Maxwell arrived in this fair land last year. Because she was not treated with the regal pomp which suited her concepts of graciousness, first, she started a row at the airport. When that row died down, then others took place at different points afterwards.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We seem now to be discussing the activities of a private individual, an individual for whom Bord Fáilte had no responsibility.

Mr. Norton

I want to know if the taxpayers' money or any portion of the money we are now voting to Bord Fáilte was necessary because of the fact that that lady was entertained at the taxpayers' expense. I made inquiries in that matter because I read in America a most offensive article which this lady wrote about Ireland and and about the President of this country. When I came to make inquiries as to how she got here, I was told—I cannot vouch for this because I did not get it first-hand—she was here as a guest of Bord Fáilte. It would be ironic, I am sure the House will agree, if this lady arrived here, caused disturbances on a couple of occasions and then went back and wrote an offensive article about the country and about the President of the country.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not think Bord Fáilte have any responsibility whatever for the coming of Miss Maxwell——

Mr. Norton

If you can assure me——

Mr. S. Lemass

I want to make it quite clear that I am taking no responsibility for the lady.

Mr. Norton

She is on the open transfer list, as far as anybody is concerned. My concern is that if she were here as a guest of Bord Fáilte——

Mr. S. Lemass

There is no foundation for that.

Mr. Norton

She was not here as their guest?

Mr. S. Lemass

No.

Mr. Norton

And she was not entertained by them while here?

Mr. S. Lemass

So far as I know, there is no connection at all.

Mr. Norton

I was informed she was a guest of Bord Fáilte. I was told that by people who ought to be in a position to know. However, I am quite satisfied now that she was not their guest. She wrote a most offensive article on the country and on the President. If Bord Fáilte spent money on entertaining a lady of that kind, my advice to the Minister would be to tell them to be more careful in the selection of guests in the future.

Mr. T. Lynch

I do not want to go over what other Deputies have mentioned, but I should like to speak about the country from which most of our tourist trade comes. It comes from across the Channel. Deputy Burke said we should do everything we possibly can to promote our tourist trade and improve it. I would ask some of our Ministers of State to stop talking about English people as if they had the mange, as they often do in this House. They get hot about them.

In the matter of the cross-Channel trade, in order to extend the season, the Minister established An Tóstal. Many people say it was a failure. I shall give the Minister credit for trying: that is the main thing. He had a go. It may not have been a success in many places; it was a success in other places. If the Minister had not profit out of it, he gained experience, and I am sure he will profit from the experience.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would be a matter for the main Vote and not for a Supplementary Estimate which deals with certain matters.

Mr. T. Lynch

With regard to the promotion of tourism, it is important to bring tourists here in the off-season when we could deal with them. There is the matter of the motor-car trade. A concession was given in respect of the months of April and May when motor-cars could be brought from Great Britain to this country at a much cheaper rate. Many people took advantage of that concession. I would emphasise that experience to the Minister and urge that it should be followed up during the months when cheap week-end fares or cheap week-end tours are available. I have in mind now the long week-end from Friday to Tuesday.

I am old enough to remember these cheap tickets from England to Ireland and from Ireland to England in happier days. I think that is worth while investigating. Hoteliers would welcome it. They could easily cater for the people who would come over. An enormous number of our people now live in England. A very large number of men and women who are married and have settled down in England would be glad of the opportunity to bring over their families so as to let their parents in this country see them. That would be a big expense on ordinary working people at the full rates but, during the tourist off-season, cheap week-end fares should be available. The Minister should ask Bord Fáilte about the matter or, through his Department, should ask C.I.E. to have the matter taken up with British Railways.

With regard to the American trade, it is good that the amenities at Cobh are being improved. Let us hope that one of the first boats ordered in the new dockyard at Cork will be a new tender for the Cork Harbour authorities. I have noticed that many Americans are interested in the history and traditions of this country and I want to compliment the Tourist Board on the erection of plaques in various parts of the country. A very good job was done at Kinsale. It would give even a stranger an idea of how the whole battle of Kinsale was fought. The same thing was done at New Ross. I have not recently been in Limerick, but I am sure the same thing could be done in Limerick and in other places. The Tourist Board are doing a very fine job and deserve all the encouragement the Minister can give them.

It is usually fine in this country in the months of May and June. That is a point which we could put to people so that they might come here earlier— especially when we would be giving, if at all possible, these cheap fares I have mentioned.

Lastly, I come to the matter of grants to resorts. These grants will be given in conjunction with the local authorities and local companies. I am a member of a local authority and I do not think that the local authorities are the best people to promote tourism in their areas. I may be calling coals of fire down on my head, but what usually happens with the local authorities is that perhaps somebody from the other end of the county will want so much money from the local authority in order to qualify for the grant and the local authority will say "No." That makes it very difficult for the local people. Where there are local companies, they deserve support from the local people, but if the support from the local people is not as great, say, as the Minister would demand at present, then as often as not, the Minister would need a great deal of money for small resorts. I think the board should be asked to meet these resorts.

I am interested in the position of my constituency as regards these grants. Since I came into the Dáil, I have discovered that my constituency comes out very badly whenever there are State grants available. We do not seem to be able to get a portion of them at all. I was appalled at my colleague, Deputy Coogan, who did not seem to be in any way grateful to the Government for anything that might have been done in Galway.

Mr. S. Lemass

He cannot be counting correctly.

Mr. T. Lynch

I think, perhaps, that one of the reasons why my county might be overlooked is that we are a quiet and conservative people down in Waterford. The ambassador of the Republic to the United States of America is a Waterfordman and he has a beautiful article this month in Ireland of the Welcomes. He invites everybody to come to Ireland and tells of the beauties and the glories of the country and, being the decent, conservative man that he is he did not brag about his own county.

Mr. S. Lemass

He did not have to.

Mr. T. Lynch

When a case is put by the tourist resorts in Waterford, as I know there will be, I ask the Minister to bear with the people and remember that they have never got their fair share of any of the grants, or any of the hand-outs, that were given over the years. They have been passed by.

General MacEoin

I think An Bord Fáilte, and the Minister, would be well advised to take steps to clear up, and to make more presentable, the best strands in the world, which we have. There is no worthwhile amenity at them; the entrance to them is difficult and, I regret to say, the amount of litter left after a Sunday is very disheartening. If there was a specimen or pilot unit taken to show what could be done with them, it would be of very great benefit. I have several strands in mind and it does not matter whether they are at Waterford, Galway, Dublin or elsewhere, but to a person from the Midlands, it is very disheartening to see the condition of these strands—which are some of the finest in the world—being left in a very unhealthy looking state, to say the least of it.

With a very small expenditure, a great deal of work could be done which would be an inducement to our own people to go to them and if our own people go to them, the tourist will also follow because where our own people go, they are the greatest ambassadors for our tourist resorts.

Mr. S. Lemass

This Supplementary Estimate is, of course, concerned with only three details of administration: the improvements at Cobh, the inauguration of the tourist resort amenity scheme, and the hotel grant scheme. Many Deputies spoke about the more general aspects of tourist trade development and I do not propose to deal with their comments now. There will be, as I said, a Bill to extend the resources of An Bord Fáilte introduced in the Dáil in a couple of weeks' time and either on that, or on the main Estimate, these matters of wider import can be discussed.

So far as the three items of detail with which the Supplementary Estimate is concerned, I should like to say, in relation to the Cork scheme, that the matter of new tenders to service the liners is fully appreciated by the Cork Harbour Commissioners. They are, in fact, proposing to acquire a new tender and to recondition the second tender, and the only matter at issue at the moment between them and myself is the amount of State grant for which they are to qualify. It is a small matter of detail.

In regard to the hotel bedroom scheme, that of course, is based upon the assumption that in respect of the type of tourist who utilises the hotel services, the bottle-neck limiting the expansion of trade was the inadequacy of the number of hotel bedrooms. The schemes initiated before for the giving of financial help to hotel-keepers to extend accommodation, involving guaranteed loans or other financial assistance, had not produced the desired results and, therefore, it was decided to supplement them by this very direct inducement of a cash grant, in addition to the loan facilities which are available. The grant—to meet the point raised by Deputy Dillon—is greater if the hotel bedroom accommodation provided incorporates bathrooms as well.

Deputy Cosgrave asked if a hotel which extends its accommodation in this way would be liable to revaluation. Under the law, of course, there is no change in valuation for seven years, but no doubt revaluation will come eventually. But it seems to me that the availability of a substantial cash grant, plus a loan which, at the discretion of the board, can be made in a way which defers for a time both the interest and the repayment charges, would be a very substantial offset to the higher charges arising from the eventual revaluation.

In the case of the resort development schemes, I want to make it clear that the essential conditions for the giving of a grant are the two which I mentioned. One is that those responsible for the development of a particular resort will plan that development in a comprehensive way. It would be undesirable that they should come along looking for a grant this year to provide a park, or erect a promenade, or a public convenience, or some other necessary amenity, and next year seek a grant for something else and then, in the third year, find that they had put the first development in the wrong place and want to shift it. The intention is that there must be a comprehensive scheme in the fulfilment of which the local authority would have to co-operate, with its own road development, water and sewerage plans and so forth. The whole scheme of development cannot be executed in one year or two years, but each particular part can be undertaken as resources become available and can be fitted into that ultimate, full development pattern already decided on.

The requirement of a local contribution is, I think, also very necessary. In any event, in so far as the amount of resources available for resort development is limited, it will at least mean that these resources will go to areas in which interest in development for tourist purposes is keenest.

The local contribution can come through the local authority, but it does not necessarily have to be so. In many of the resorts with which discussions are proceeding, there is a local development company already set up under the Tourist Traffic Acts which is taking the initiative. In fact, the local contribution can be put into a part of the scheme which itself will be revenue earning. Some parts of these schemes must be revenue earning. It is not essential that the local contribution should be in the form of an outright grant. Providing the whole scheme is approved by Bord Fáilte, the unremunerative parts of it can be covered by the grant they give, and the remunerative parts can be covered by investment of the local development company. The development that took place at Arklow, of which Deputy Lynch is aware, indicates the type of development that the local company could undertake with an expectation of making a profit rather than a loss. I assure him that in the case of Tramore, something as substantial is possible. I hope whatever may happen in Tramore will be less controversial from my point of view than the previous attempt I made to develop amenities there.

Reference has been made to An Tóstal. That is part of the general plan for tourist trade development and I do not wish to comment on it. Deputies will have learned that this year changes have been made. It is obviously common sense to keep changing the details of a scheme of that kind as experience shows modification to be required. It is clear that the first ideas applied by Bord Fáilte for the extension of the tourist trade season by that arrangement was not happily conceived, in so far as they tried to do too much with far too limited resources. Ultimately, they had to cut down the scale of their operations, picking out of the numerous activities organised in the first year those that proved most successful.

I think it is true to say that as a result of the inauguration of An Tóstal, a number of festivals and other events of considerable importance—certainly of growing importance—have emerged through the activities of local Tóstal Councils and have proved quite successful and will indeed become important national occasions in the future. For my own part, I should like to say, as one who for very many years felt like a voice crying in the wilderness about the economic importance of the tourist trade, that I did not believe the public was responding to the opportunity the tourist trade offered until an Tóstal came along. Whether it was the criticism of the arrangements made in connection with the Tóstal or whatever other aspect of the project touched the public imagination, it did appear to me during the early years of the Tóstal that, for the first time, public interest in the possibilities of the tourist trade really became aroused and local effort to develop tourist amenities really became effective.

Deputy McQuillan queried the statistics published by Bord Fáilte regarding the extent of our tourist trade. Bord Fáilte publishes statistics received from the Central Statistics Office, and I am sure the Central Statistics Office will have no hesitation in telling Deputy McQuillan or anybody else the basis on which they compile those statistics. It is, of course, recognised by all of us that, in addition to those who come here as tourists in the ordinary sense of the term, there are a large number of people who come because they were born here or because they have relatives here. People working abroad come back for holidays, or to see relatives. No doubt, a very high percentage of those would come, no matter what facilities, attractions or transport arrangements were provided, but they will come all the more readily and happily, if we have proper accommodation for them en route and when they are in their native localities.

In that connection, I should like to make one remark arising out of a comment by Deputy Dillon. It is true that the modern tourist tends more and more to live up to the full significance of that term, as a visitor who in a motor car does in fact tour the country. Many of them, of course, avail of the rapidly developing and very efficient car hire facilities already within the country, but some of them bring their cars with them. We are to some extent handicapped in this country by the inadequacy of the facilities available to those who want to bring their cars with them here. However, changes are taking place in that respect. Deputies will have seen that the cost of bringing a car here has been reduced by the shipping companies and that the Government have abolished customs formalities. It is now no longer necessary to have a triptyque; a mere notification to the customs authorities on entering the country gives the right to bring in a car without any further customs formalities. We have completely liberalised the movement of cars in that regard.

In addition, arrangements are being inaugurated this year at Dún Laoghaire which will permit of a limited number of cars being brought on the mail boats from Holyhead, and later on, it may be possible to improve the facilities at other ports. Certainly, the number of tourists who go into the northern part of Ireland on the Stranraer-Larne ferry is an indication of the potentiality of a service of that kind. In fact, many of those who want to visit us as motor car using tourists have to come by that route and do in fact come by that route. There is a great deal which we could do to extend the facilities at present available for those who want to come to this country bringing their cars with them. Some progress has been made, but a great deal more has yet to be done. Some of it, however, will be done this year.

Vote put and agreed to.

Votes 52 and 54 reported and agreed to.