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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Apr 1959

Vol. 174 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 9—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.—(Minister for Finance.)

When speaking last week on this Resolution, I referred to the fact that over the past two years the country has experienced the consequences of the Government's policy as adumbrated in their first Budget when they returned to office in 1957. At that time, when the food subsidies were completely withdrawn, Deputy J.A. Costello spoke from these benches and I shall quote briefly from a passage in which he said:—

We felt—he referred to the inter-Party Government of which he was Taoiseach—and it was impressed upon us to the point that we never at any time removed those food subsidies or any of them—that these subsidies had really ceased long since to be mere subsidies to food, that they had entered into the fabric of our system, that not merely did they do something towards stabilising the cost of living but that they were also, in a sense, a subsidy to wages and incomes and, in addition to that, they were in the nature of a subsidy to agricultural production.

We can examine the consequences of that action at that time and we can see that the leader of the Opposition was prophetic on that occasion because he had the experience, as had this Government, of the consequences that flowed from the reduction of the subsidies in 1952.

As I said last week, there were many people in the country who thought a strong Government could cut from our expenditure the sum of money which had been expended on food subsidies and they were led to believe by the Party now in office that that was possible. Since then, we have been reminded at least monthly of the charges that have arisen ever since the enactment of that Budget of 1957. We have been reminded of the recurring charges on national expenditure, on local expenditure and on private expenditure, by private employers, and the charges on them—whether as employers, as ratepayers, or as taxpayers —in providing additional moneys under every heading in national and local expenditure in order, in some way, to cushion the people against the impact of the increase in the cost of living, sparked off by the withdrawal of the food subsidies. We ask any speaker supporting the Government——

Will Deputies please allow the speaker to be heard? I can hear conversations around the House.

——to indicate what amount of money, if any, was saved in taxes in consequence of the Government being no longer obliged to provide a single penny to subsidise food? We can say to them that there is a lot of talk to-day about the P.A.Y.E. system in relation to income tax but we have had a system of taxation over the past two years which was a P.A.Y.E. system. It was not a pay-as-you-earn system but a pay as you eat system. For every loaf of bread, every lb. of butter and every single necessary of life, people have been paying every time they sat down to table, in consequence of the Government's action two years ago.

Deputy Costello referred to the fact that, in effect, the subsidies were a subsidy to agricultural production. What has happened in relation to the consumption of flour and bread? In the town of Mallow in my constituency, one of the oldest established milling concerns had to close down and when we came to the Department of Industry and Commerce, we were informed that it was in consequence of the reduction in consumption of flour and bread. In the public Press these days, we see what is happening in Limerick where there is a laying off of staff in Messrs. Ranks because of that reduction in consumption of flour and bread. The annual report submitted by that company dealt quite emphatically with the effect it had had in consequence of the increase in the cost of living.

We said to the Government, before they set out on this road, that no matter what efforts they might make, no matter what buoyancy in revenue they might get, it was a sheer impossibility to undo what had been done to the people at that time. What do we find to-day? We find that some people, principally the people in the higher income group, have got substantial increases. They have got increases in their salaries and later they may get increases through the reduction in income tax. What has the small person in the country got, or what has the small farmer got?

There was an indication given in a reply to a question here about a quarter of an hour ago—that there was a reduction in the supplies of milk to the creameries, compared with last year, of as much as 4,000,000 gallons. When you make up what that has meant in the lowering of the incomes of those people—those are the people who for the past four or five months had to pay that increase in the price of butter, without delivering a single gallon of milk to a creamery—we are entitled to ask why they should suffer that reduction in their incomes imposed by the present Minister for Finance by a levy on production.

The local co-operative society in Bandon represented in their annual report the sum which that single creamery was charged in the last 12 months by a levy on production and it amounted to £78,000—for having worked too hard and produced too much. Then we are told of the importance of increasing our output. I warn the Government that we have in that milk industry the basis of our cattle industry. Should anything happen to deplete drastically the numbers of milch cows, as could well happen, from the impact of increased cost of production and the reduced incomes of these people, and the fact that they are turning over every day to other means of making a livelihood, the situation could be reached in a few years that we would be back in the position in which we were in 1947, and that once again we would be importing butter.

The Dublin people did not like Danish butter and would not like it, if they had to eat it again. It was brought home to them that in the Munster area the people were capable of producing better butter than anywhere in the world. During the last century we established, in the neighbouring island of Britain, a continuity of supply for that commodity which was never broken down through the years, at a time when the merchants came out from Cork into the County of Kerry and into West Cork and bought the butter manufactured in the farmers' yards. To-day it is made at the creamery. The situation could arise where, with the lowering of production and the increasing of costs, that industry would be in serious jeopardy.

I want to come now to the general application of this Budget and of the financial policy of this Government. When Deputy Costello was speaking immediately after the presentation of the 1957 Budget, he recalled that the Taoiseach was wont at one time to advise people coming into politics to study The Prince and he quoted:

"Injuries ought to be done all at one time; benefits ought to be given little by little so that the flavour of them may last the longer."

It would appear now as if that was a good prophecy, that what was behind that 1957 Budget was a political reason and not an economic one. The consequences in the increased level of expenditure and so on have proved that that is true. Now we see some little jubilation in the ranks of those behind the Government. Indeed, one can sympathise with them because they have waited for many a year to find some crumbs thrown to them by a Fianna Fáil Minister for Finance or to any taxpayer in the country. Having reflected now after some weeks of discussion and having examined what the Government have done in this Budget, they may have second thoughts and some of the exaggerated claims may now have simmered down to some measure of reality.

When Deputy Brennan was speaking here, he actually told us in very revolutionary tones that the remission given, in this Budget, as a reduction of taxation on dancing, would be welcomed by the Churches in the country. His performance would have been suited to Athlone. Do we not know, as the Minister has said, that it is a certain concession to the dance halls? It is welcomed by the proprietors, but it is not intended to achieve all the relief that some Deputies would have us believe, to those who pay admission charges to dances.

What the Minister is doing in this Budget is seeking to get the country to accept that he is giving these remissions at the same time as he is balancing his Budget. That point has been dealt with by Deputy Sweetman and others. When he gave his estimate of the over-estimation for the coming year at a level of £2½ millions, I was tempted to be somewhat sceptical, since the Minister has a rather poor record when he enters into the realm of estimation. There was a time when he was asked what his much-vaunted Health Act would cost the taxpayers and he said it would cost not more than 2/- in the £. Let us hope that his estimation on this occasion is somewhat better than his effort then.

The reduction in income tax is welcome, but it must be remembered what the history of the level of income tax has been since the State was founded. When we achieved self-government, the standard rate was 6/- in the £ and in 1931-1932, ten years later, despite all that that first Government had to do in building up the foundations of this State, it was as low as 3/6 in the £. It rose in 1932/33 to 5/- and 1940/41 to 6/6. It remained at that level until the Supplementary Budget of 1947 when it was raised to 7/- in the £. At the first opportunity the new Government had it reduced to 6/6. It remained at that level until the Fianna Fáil Government increased it by 1/-, in the 1952 Budget to the level of 7/6. Therefore they are giving back 6d. of the 1/- imposed in 1952.

I referred earlier to the increases in salaries and wages which numerous organised bodies secured because of their incontestable claim arising from the increase in the cost of living. There are many wage earners in the country who were brought within the scope of the Minister's net in relation to income tax when these increases were given. Because these increases were given to meet the special circumstances of that increase in the cost of living, I think it would be more equitable if there had been a rise in the personal allowance rather than the flat decrease all round. There are numerous people throughout the country who are today forced to pay back certain amounts into the Exchequer in income tax, because of the fact that they get this increased award arising out of their just claims because of the impact of the increased cost of living.

We have had other excursions into the by-ways by some of the Deputies opposite. One of the claims, an almost incredible claim, was that it was this Government which resolved the balance of payment difficulties. Deputy Haughey made that claim. I shall not devote more than a half minute to that subject; I shall let the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, reply to that. As reported in Vol. 161, Col. 1151, he said, speaking to the Budget of 1957:

Nobody denies that a problem had arisen there——

—he was speaking of the balance of payments—

—which was critical for the country and one with which the Government in office had to deal.

Here is the important paragraph:—

It was dealt with by the Government of the day.

Nothing could be more emphatic, nothing could be clearer than that. Now, in 1959 we have a Deputy supporting the Government seeking to draw attention away from the current problems by going back on the situation which existed in those days and saying that they had no hand, act or part in the rectification of the problems that then existed. It must be appreciated now that we have reached the stage for which the Minister for Finance so rightly expressed gratification, that the country can enjoy the standard of living it has because of the fact that the level of exports made it possible for us to import the raw materials of industry.

It is well worth recalling that when the Fianna Fáil Government left office in 1947, after 16 years of government, the level of exports was £39,511,000 and that in 1957 the level had risen to £131,234,000 and is now at a record figure. That is a gratifying development. That occurred in the ten year period that the Minister for Lands, the Dr. Goebbels of this Government, would have the country believe was a period of stagnation.

We may ask what led to that dramatic increase in exports. It was the implementation of the consistent faith of this Party and of the inter-Party Government in the future of the livestock trade. It was a consequence of the 1948 Trade Agreement and the encouragement given to agricultural producers to maintain more livestock and to improve their methods of husbandry. Towards that end, one of the first actions of the inter-Party Government was to discontinue a practice that was the greatest crime ever perpetrated by a Government in this country, namely, the reduction of the cattle population by the slaughter of calves.

During the years of the Economic War as many as 221,000 calves were slaughtered in a single year. Some people think that the slaughter of calves ceased with the conclusion of that war. In the very last year that the Fianna Fáil Party held office, before the advent of the inter-Party Government, 68,700 calves were slaughtered. As a result of the action of the incoming Government, that figure was reduced, in their first year of office, to 14,000 and was brought down steadily until, in 1957, it had reached the lowest figure on record of 2,900. In that way, the first impetus was given to the increase in cattle population that was so desirable.

That in itself was not enough. The inter-Party Government had to attack the problems affecting people because of the need for improved veterinary services, and so on. Grants were given for the erection of farm buildings. In that period, 132,526 farm buildings were erected or improved under grants from the Department of Agriculture. In case any city Deputy may think that these were all hand-outs, money poured down the drain, I may say that for every pound invested by the State the farmers contributed a comparable amount. That is work which was carried out and which is complete to a great degree; it was the foundation of what is now being done to eradicate bovine tuberculosis. I ask Deputies supporting the Government what kind of formidable task would be presented to their Minister for Agriculture today if he had to start now with that work, so much of which was done in those years?

In addition, during the same period, those who live in agricultural Ireland and who are responsible for the dramatic increase in exports were assisted by modern equipment and facilities which they had not previously enjoyed. Prior to the accession of the inter-Party Government, in 1948, only 8,573 households had been connected to the national network under the rural electrification scheme. Since that date 222,651 households have been connected under that scheme. As a result, there must be thousands of people in rural Ireland today who would not be there if these facilities had not been provided under the energetic programme that was being pursued. All this was done in the years that the Minister for Lands would have us believe were years of stagnation.

In relation to the import levies, there are some further remissions in the Budget. I have been amazed at the line taken by some Fianna Fáil Deputies of regarding these levies as deliberately revenue producing. We know why these levies were imposed. If the Government of that time had desired to use the levies for revenue purposes, they would have stopped short at the first list of levies which they imposed. It was because the levies imposed in the first instance did not have the desired effect of curtailing the volume of imports that the second round of levies was imposed. If the levies were merely intended to produce revenue, the Government of the day would have fared better in that respect if they had left them at the original level. The levies were never intended for that purpose. It was indicated by Deputy Sweetman, Minister for Finance at the time, that not one penny of the revenue that would come from import levies would be devoted to current expenditure. At a time when our capital programme was in some difficulties, it was a welcome boost to devote the money that came off towards assisting the capital programme but the intention and the effect were deliberately to reduce the volume of imports and, as the Tánaiste says, that object was achieved.

I say emphatically that the levies removed on this occasion should have been removed long ago and would been a change of Government. We know that, under existing trade agreements, one is permitted to disrupt existing trading conditions only when there is a serious balance of payments problem. That is recognised in every trade agreement between countries and should not be regarded as in any way a protection to industry in this country. There are laws in existence for protecting industry and they have been used extensively and before that assistance is given the industry requiring the protection has to give certain guarantees in relation to price, level of employment and other matters. A blanket series of levies imposed or retained as a measure of protection do not bring about the desired result. Consequently, the easement afforded by the reduction in the levies is well overdue.

It is remarkable that we should be experiencing still the extremely high level of the cost of living when one bears in mind that the terms of trade were never better. In that respect, some Deputies have jeered at any suggestion from this side of the House that the previous Government had any special difficulties in relation to trading in their time. They now want the country to believe that it was entirely an internal matter. We can all recall the petrol rationing which was enforced at the time of the Suez episode. We know the Government lost £1 million of revenue. Deputy Haughey does not appear to believe that. Perhaps he thinks it never occurred and that the country did not experience any ill-effects from that episode. Perhaps he thinks we did not have a serious problem in relation to the value of our exports, consequent on the dumping of Argentinian meat in Britain. He might recall that his Party's paper at that time——

The family paper.

——and many Ministers, particularly the Minister for Lands, were vociferous in declaring that we should throw our hats at that item of export. There were many people who believed the campaign at that time and the Minister would possibly be in much more jubilant form to-day if so many people had not believed what his colleagues said during that difficult period.

Among the savings which it is claimed were widely effected by this Government is the elimination of operations under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. We know that since that scheme was wound up, there has been considerable disemployment in rural areas, due to the mechanisation of road works. Many of the men displaced from road work could very well have been re-employed on Local Authorities (Works) Act schemes. They are people who are beyond the age at which they can emigrate and we know that far from saving the amount of money represented as having been saved, instead of paying those men £5 per week on schemes such as drainage, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare had to come into this House with a Supplementary Estimate to give £3 a week to keep them idle—men who were employed on those works at a sum of £5 per week.

Would it not have been far better to have continued them in employment on such useful work and on schemes in which for the first time in the history of the State the proportion of overhead costs was lower than the amount of money paid in wages? No matter what the political views of members of the local authorities were, we know that throughout the country various county councils vied with each other in order to get as high a proportion of the grants available as possible so as to employ as many as they could under that scheme. it was a retrograde step to abolish it because it helped to ease the situation in rural parts in relation to employment.

We have on record, from the statistics provided by the Government, that there is this continuing reduction in the numbers in employment, including those employed in agriculture. I am aghast at the way in which many people in authority write off any possibility of effecting any improvement in that sphere. I have no doubt much of it is a consequence of mechanisation, but it is also true that we have had, over the past decade, quite a lot of unnecessary mechanisation. Many people bought machines which, in the long run, they found were surplus to their needs. They found that if they had retained more manual labour, and had engaged contractors at the busy seasons, they would have been far better off. At any rate, surely we have now reached the peak in mechanisation. To-day people who thought they could manage without employing the labour which they employed at one time, find that their lives are such that they have had second thoughts on the subject.

It should be possible to encourage more employment on the land. We must remember that many of those who left the land did so because they were attracted by the way in which industrial employment was presented to them as an easier life, with shorter hours, better conditions and so on. In that respect, again we are indebted to the Minister for Lands for having informed us that in the past 12 months new industrial concerns have been set up, and he cited a number of them. No doubt, he had one in particular in mind which was established in his own constituency. I regret to say that that was only established there in consequence of two existing concerns being closed by the same directors, one in my constituency and one in west Cork.

Surely that is no contribution to the effort that should be made to find employment for our people, to make statements which are so obviously divorced from the facts, and which the people know are divorced from the facts. It would be far more helpful if statements in that respect were restricted to what could be actually supported with new industries which had been established.

Deputy McGilligan referred to the easement of credit by the banks and to the fact that we have to-day this welcome improvement in credit facilities. It is a great tribute to those who had faith in the future of the cattle industry that the banks are prepared to assist them as they now appear to be, but, again, it is regrettable that the interest charged is at such a high rate. We must not think that this is an innovation and that nothing was ever done before because I consider the credit scheme which was operated by the Dairy Disposals Board in relation to heifers—by which any supplier could get the value of his two best cheques in the year to purchase heifers at the commencement of the creamery season and the amount was paid off by a reduction of some £2 per month—was extremely good and would be very hard for the banks to better.

In conclusion, I should like to emphasise that if the Government seek to imply to the country that they are in the very healthy condition in which they say they are, the people expected that any remission given would have been given to the people who were put in the most difficult position through the Government's financial policy. Those people on very limited incomes and those who are self-employed, particularly in the small farming category, have suffered serious reductions in their incomes and it was expected that in this Budget the Government would have written-off the charge which they made in relation to the production levy on butter.

I want to refer also to the fact that there appears to be some delay in the presentation by the Government of the report of the Marketing Committee for which £250,000 was voted two years ago. That proposal was welcomed throughout the country, and it was more or less understood that it was the first instalment of some considerable progress in relation to marketing. It was later ascertained that only a negligible portion of that money was expended at the end of that year.

At any rate, we are now informed that the Committee have reported to the Minister for Agriculture. It would be well if the result of their deliberations for that two year period were given to us. It is to be hoped that the consequences will be to relieve the minds of many producers who feel that there is not much use in their working harder, investing more, and producing more goods unless something of a really tangible nature is done in providing markets for them that will guarantee to them that if they answer the call for increased production, they will not be fined for exceeding the level at which they can export without being a charge on the Exchequer.

Some explanation is needed in relation to the delay in the payment of social welfare benefits.

That surely is administration.

The Budget indicates that the payments will not be made until next August and I have said that on a former occasion when Budgetary proposals provided for increases in old age pensions and widows' pensions these benefits were payable within a matter of weeks. The delay in the payment on this occasion is very mysterious and it is not fair to the people who have waited over-long already for this easement in the difficulties which they encountered in consequence of the serious increase in the cost of living which particularly affected them.

I have sometimes thought the people of this country could be divided into three main categories which might be classified as the fairies, the leprechauns and the banshees. The fairies are, of course, traditionally the good people, the leprechauns, according to legend, are industrious if occasionally mischievous, and the banshees, as we all know, are those who delight in keening at somebody's anticipated demise.

They do not use a pawnbroker's sign, do they?

They may on occasion. It seems to me, however, reading the reports of the debate upon this Budget, that the banshee element is over-represented in this House. I do not think there is any justification for the strong banshee note.

May we assume there are only leprechauns and fairies on the Minister's side of the House?

There are some leprechauns over here. I do not think there is any justification for the strong banshee note which ran through some of the speeches from the benches opposite. It is quite true that the country whose demise they are presumably keening has not fully recovered from the period of spiritual malnutrition which it suffered under the Coalition Government, but it is beginning to recover and, if not yet restored to full health, it is at least picking up and thinking of the tasks of the future. It would probably be true to say it is now out of danger, that even though there are many economic and social problems left to solve, we have done enough, in devising methods of solving them, to encourage us to go about the task with confidence in our ability to succeed and with sufficient results to date to assure us that we are working on the right lines.

It is necessary to re-emphasise that the whole object of the Government's economic plans is to make it possible to bring about an improvement in social conditions. Social aims must always be the purpose of economic policy. These plans have been devised, and administrative arrangements to give effect to them have been brought into force, with the idea that, by reason of them, it will become possible in time to eliminate from the life of our people undeserved poverty and unemployment, to raise their living standards, to eliminate the economic causes of emigration and generally to make them better off.

We have been so preoccupied in recent months with organising an increase of national production, and the need for that increase has been so much the theme of pronouncements of the Government and Ministers, discussion here and elsewhere has been confined to such an extent to the details, and the effectiveness of the Government's plans, that the social aim has perhaps been obscured in the minds of some people. The fact, however, that we assumed people understood what the purpose of these plans was, and that there was a general appreciation of the social aims behind them, so that there was no need to emphasise them does not justify assertions that the Government is indifferent to social problems or is indifferent to the difficulties of many sections of our people.

It is perhaps easy to understand how Deputies in the flood of crossroads oratory can attribute unworthy motives to their political opponents or challenge their sincerity in their attitude to the grave problems of the country but we know they often do so with their tongues in their cheeks and without really expecting anyone to believe what they are saying. That is part of the routine of Party politics and I am sure everybody recognises it as such. When similar statements are repeated in circumstances which may attract more attention to them or which may lead people who do not ordinarily attend crossroads political meetings to believe there is some justification for them, then it becomes a matter of public concern.

For my part I think I can say with all truth that I have met very few men or women in Irish public life, irrespective of the Parties to which they belonged, who were not motivated by a genuine desire to contribute to the wellbeing of their countrymen. Their ideas may not always, in my opinion, have been sound. Their plans may not always have been successful. Ideas and plans for political action are legitimate subjects for criticism and indeed criticism can often lead to new ideas and new plans which can be more beneficial. But it is a different matter to attribute to the Government indifference and unworthy motives in regard to social problems. If statements of that kind were justified then they would be a reflection on all political activity, and on the whole people of the country.

Economic policy, if it is to achieve the social aims which lie behind it, must be the product of fact and intelligence. There must be scientific examination of facts. There must be a systematic application of intelligence to the facts so as to produce workable plans. Ideas that are the product of emotion or indignation only, are not always workable. However we may feel—and we all feel very deeply about the persistence here of undesirable conditions which, for years, we have been trying to remedy and which it is the aim of everybody to see removed—we can only hope to do so by the application of intelligently conceived plans, persistently pursued, to yield to the country the resources which it requires if social welfare improvements are to be brought about.

The essence of our problem in this country, which cannot be concealed by any distortion of facts or attribution of unworthy motives, is that the level of the country's economic activity is not rising rapidly enough to ensure that there will be available the resources which will provide reasonable living standards, secured through work, for the natural increase in our population or to offset in developing sectors the consequences of diminishing activity in other sectors. We, as we have emphasised again and again, have no desire to conceal or minimise the economic or social problems of the country. On the contrary, we have endeavoured to ensure that the facts regarding them would be widely publicised. Our aim was to get the people to understand the magnitude of the task facing them so that there would be generated that determination to undertake it, that understanding of effort required, which would enable it to be accomplished.

Reference was made in the course of this debate to certain statistics published by the Government in the booklet which preceded the introduction of the Budget regarding the reduction in the number of persons who described themselves as occupied in agriculture and in the diminution of employment in the building trade. It is harmful and misleading for Deputies to speak as if these particular developments were due in any way to a decision of the Government or to indifference on behalf of the Government; that they were developments that could be reversed by a Government decision. Instead, these figures and certain other associated figures bring to light and emphasise the character of the economic problem facing the country.

We have noted that the number of persons occupied in agriculture, mainly relatives assisting farmers, has tended to decline over a number of years. That is partly due to the development of conditions which drew off the land persons who were not fully required for the work of the farm and partly perhaps to developments in agricultural production techniques. We have noted that the housing needs of large areas of the country have fully been satisfied and that the employment formerly given in housebuilding is no longer available.

The aim of the Government was to create in other sectors of the economy an expanding level of employment which would absorb those who were being released from these occupations. We have to recognise that, in the course of the past year or so, we have not succeeded in bringing about in manufacturing industry, in the development of forestry or fisheries, in the extension of the service trades like tourism, insurance, banking or transport, a sufficient expansion in employment completely to offset the decline in other occupations and certainly far short of the degree required to absorb the country's natural increase in population. The only thing we have claimed—and facts justify the claim— is that the decline in employment, the decline in production, which was proceeding at an accelerating rate when we took office in 1957, was arrested before the end of that year and a slight recovery recorded.

That recovery continued during 1958 but not nearly at a pace sufficient to ensure that we would emerge from that year with any justification for complacency or any feeling that the only course required of the Government was to continue in 1959 the measures it had applied in 1958. Indeed, the outstanding event of the last year was the publication of the Programme for Economic Expansion which, in itself, was an indication of the Government's conclusion that the measures previously in operation had been insufficient and required to be extended if the results we all desire are to be achieved, if the expansion of productive activities in all directions is to be stimulated and if the country is to be given the resources to enable it to cope with its persistent social difficulties.

It is, however, necessary to emphasise also that the solution of these economic problems, and the elimination of these undesirable social conditions that we deplore, cannot be done by Government action alone. The Government can, by their Budget, provide economic stimuli and aids to production. They can, by legislation, facilities enterprise in industry and transport, the development of tourist facilities and expansion in many other directions but, unless the opportunities created by the legislation are taken up by individual private enterprise, then the great step forward in the country's economic progress which we desire, that substantial elevation of the level of economic activities, will not be brought about. Indeed, the whole of history teaches that in no country is an adequate rate of progress established unless there is a basis upon which all elements can co-operate behind a generally accepted plan of campaign.

One of the purposes of the Government in publishing the White Paper was to provide that basis for co-operation, to give the country a plan of campaign to which all economic sections could conform and, indeed, in that purpose we were, I think, even more successful than we dared hope. The plan of campaign which the White Paper represented has been accepted as realistic and practical by the Federation of Irish Industries, by the National Farmers' Association, by the Central Council of the Trade Unions and by the Chambers of Commerce of the country. For the first time in our history there has emerged an economic programme which all sections accept and to the fulfilment of which all sections have pledged their active support.

That gives, perhaps, greater grounds for optimism in this year, 1959, than we had previously, but the aim must be to ensure that that goodwill which has been engendered, that acceptance of a common plan which was an essential condition for progress, will be fully availed of by reason of the energetic leadership of the Government. We accept it as our obligation to provide that leadership and we hope to fulfil our part of the plan. By that, I mean the part which requires the enactment of legislation by this House before the end of this year. A large part of the necessary legislation has already been enacted. Some is before the House at the present time and the rest of it will come forward for consideration here in the months immediately ahead. What we want from this House is constructive criticism of these proposals designed to improve them and not the type of carping, ineffectual comment to which many Deputies resorted during the course of this debate.

Increased production, which we must get if the country is to have the resources with which to provide its people with a rising standard of living and to eliminate these continuing causes of undeserved poverty, can be achieved only if all economic activities within the country are directed towards purposes which will expand employment opportunities and increase the total output of goods and services. It is true that a large part of the Government's programme for economic expansion is directed towards the expansion of output from agriculture, and that it is conceivably possible to bring about a very great increase in agricultural production without any corresponding increase in agricultural employment. Indeed, I think all Parties in the House now accept that, in so far as it is our aim to bring about an increase in the number of jobs in the country, increase the employment opportunities, that must be done mainly in the expansion of manufacturing industry and associated activities.

It can be done to some extent by the expansion of the Government's capital programme and the Budget introduced by the Minister for Finance has, in fact, so provided, but the permanent raising of the level of economic activity within the country can be achieved only if we get, through private initiative and enterprise, that expansion in over-all production which is the aim of our policy. The significance of the Budget this year is that it gives not merely evidence of the progress already made, and an encouragement to people to attempt further progress, but also evidence of the practical and very real benefits which can accrue to the community if the expansion of production at which we are aiming can be brought about. That Budget in no way represents the end of our effort. In fact, it could more properly be described as the very beginning of it.

In 1957 the Government took office a few weeks before the Budget was due to be presented and were faced with an intimidating deficit in the Exchequer accounts. We knew it was our task to make proposals here for the closing of that deficit. We did not conceive it was possible—even if we had regarded it as desirable—to propose to close it solely by increasing taxation rates, and we did not think it was possible to close it solely by the device of eliminating expenditure. We tried and did, in fact, ultimately succeed in closing the gap by resort to both methods, partly by increasing taxation and partly by reducing expenditure. By that, I mean, specifically, eliminating the consumer subsidies.

Consumer subsidies were adopted as a temporary device to meet a temporary situation. They were maintained long after the situation they were designed to meet had passed and when it was obvious that the forces of inflation were likely to persist for a much longer number of years than had originally been anticipated. Other countries had adopted the same device of consumer subsidies and they had, one by one, abandoned it at the appropriate time. We had to abandon it sometime. I do not suppose there is anybody in his sane senses who would regard a system of food subsidies of that kind to be desirable as a permanent feature of our arrangements. Indeed, the maintenance of subsidies with all the accompanying controls and regulations, designed to make them effective and to secure the aim of the subsidies, was fast producing a whole series of new problems which had to be eliminated. I do not believe there is anybody here who is seriously contemplating a restoration of these subsidies in any form or who would put forward a serious proposition, for the consideration of this House, for the imposition of a whole series of new taxes which would be required to provide money with which to finance them.

By the Budget of 1957 the financial situation of the Government was rectified, and the evidence that was given to the public of the intention of the Government to keep that situation right, very largely contributed to the renewed growth of confidence in the country's future which became apparent in that year. It is true, in so far as the balance of payments problems, which had bedevilled the operations of the previous Government for two years, disappeared in 1957, that was due to some extent to favourable circumstances developing in international trade but it was also due to the fact that the public here realised there was then in office a Government prepared to face up to their responsibilities, and to do what had to be done so that the position would be rectified. As I said, it was rectified before the end of 1957. The whole downward movement of the economy had been checked and an upward movement had begun but by 1958 that upward movement had not come far enough to permit of any relief in the Budget of that year.

The 1958 Budget was a standstill Budget. The significant thing about it was that it was the first Budget for many years which had not brought to the attention of the Dáil a need to increase taxation. The improved position in 1958, the higher revenues which existing taxes were yielding and the anticipation of the continuation of that improvement this year made it possible for the Minister for Finance to assume a surplus in this year's accounts by means of which reliefs could be given.

It is quite easy for Deputies to criticise the inadequacy of these reliefs. That, I take it, would be the normal attitude of any Party in opposition having to comment on a Budget of that character. But the Deputies opposite were not quite consistent, in that while some of them were criticising the inadequacy of the reliefs, others were trying to prove that the Minister had not really got that surplus at all and should not therefore have attempted to give any relief. The amount available to the Minister was approximately £2½ million. I will not attempt seriously to dispute with any Deputy who says that in determining that the surplus on this year's Budget would be of that size, the Minister for Finance took optimistic assumptions, and that certain adverse circumstances developing during the year might in fact disappoint him in the tax yield and produce a lower surplus. But we felt it was up to us to plan for prosperity and to base our Budget upon our hopes for the expansion in economic activity in this year. But £2½ million, while it is a substantial sum of money, was not nearly enough to provide all the reliefs we would like to have given. It was decided in the main to utilise one half of it for the reduction of direct taxation and one half for the improvement of social welfare services and similar purposes.

Deputies have said that the amount surrendered by the Exchequer by the reduction in the standard rate of income tax would have given more relief to many families if it had been used instead for increasing the allowances rather than for a reduction in the standard rate. That is true. What they mean is that the whole benefit of the amount of money which the Minister for Finance had available for tax reliefs should have been given to personal incomes and none at all to company profits. I would have disagreed with that proposal if it had been made.

While one would naturally wish to give the maximum amount of personal relief possible, it is reasonable in our circumstances to try to stimulate increased investments by companies, to expand the resources available to them for investment in new productive activities. Indeed unless we, by means of these stimuli and aids, bring about that expansion of business activity, and unless we succeed in encouraging private business firms all over the country to expand the scale of their operations, then the continuing improvement in the revenue for which we are hoping will become more doubtful. We do not feel there is on us any obligation to justify, much less to apologise for, the decision to give that relief in a form which enabled companies engaged in business to share in it. We are hoping as a result of the improvement of business conditions which will come about—partly as a result of that relief and partly as a result of other causes—that a further expansion in tax revenue will be realised in future years.

It is, of course, open to Deputies to argue that an additional half-crown a week to old age pensioners is not very much. We know it is not. But the problem, from our point of view, did not arise from any desire to reduce the benefits for old age pensioners, but from the fact that every half-crown costs £1 million a year; and £1 million was the most we had to make available for the improvement of the social welfare arrangements in this year. We felt that the best way of using that £1 million was to distribute it to the social assistance classes, to the old age pensioner, to the non-contributory widow, to the dependents of persons on unemployment assistance.

We would have liked very much to be in a position to come here and propose a much larger increase. We can hope in the years ahead that a continued expansion of tax revenue will make further increases possible. Indeed we accept it as an obligation to ensure that any improvements in revenue which may come about as a result of the expansion of economic activity in the country will be utilised for the benefit of the social welfare classes as well as for the benefit of other sections of our people.

I should hope that we might in time be able to eliminate part of the Government's problem in financing social welfare arrangements by an extension of the insurance principle. That is a matter to which examination and consideration can be given. One could not hope for an early introduction of arrangements which would provide more effective safeguards against want arising from old age, illness, orphanhood or widowhood through methods of that kind, but in the meantime we can at least regard it as a fulfilment of our duty when we decide to appropriate for the relief of need a substantial part of any surplus that may emerge on the annual Budget.

Our main hope of improvement in the future must turn upon the success of the plans we have made to bring about an expansion of production. Indeed it is only by the expansion of production—which in our circumstances, means very largely an expansion of exports also—that the country as a whole can get the resources which will enable it to erect more effective barriers against any undeserved want and, at the same time, secure a rising standard of living for the rest of the people. We think that the Budget, as we have framed it, should contribute to that result. It certainly has already helped to bring about that more optimistic climate of opinion which business expansion requires.

I have said that the Government aim to bring to the Dáil—certainly before the end of this year and possibly before the end of this session— all the legislative proposals designed to enable the programme of economic expansion set out in the White Paper to be implemented. We were not altogether unconscious of the danger when preparing that White Paper that it could prove to be something of a strait-jacket—that in so far as we had committed ourselves in advance to take certain action, we would be in a difficulty if we found that any of the plans on which we had determined might prove to be difficult to fulfil because of changing circumstances—and also of the risk that the targets set out in the White Paper would be accepted as the limits of our attempts and that we would not be able to generate the effort which would be required to get beyond these limits if that proved to be practicable. By recognising that danger we have, I think, avoided it.

Indeed, the Minister for Finance has pointed out that the estimate for capital expenditure in this year's Budget does in fact exceed the estimate in the White Paper. In other ways, too, we have given an indication of our intention to push ahead even more rapidly, if that proves to be possible, than the White Paper contemplates. When preparing that White Paper we were determined not to appear unduly optimistic. We had to be, above all, realistic. The White Paper had to be so framed and drafted that the measures proposed would be clearly seen to be within the country's capacity and that everybody would accept it as a practicable programme. If we can do better, clearly we must do better. If we can only do as well as is contemplated there and bring about that annual increase in national income which the White Paper contemplates, then we can hope for a repetition in succeeding years of Budgets which will enable reliefs to be given in the form of lower taxes, increased social welfare appropriations or of increased appropriations to economic aids, or to educational and other development services.

I must confess I was somewhat perturbed by the nonconstructive atmosphere of this debate. We could, perhaps, understand the difficulties of Parties in Opposition presented with a Budget which imposes no new charge on anybody and which gives reliefs to many classes of taxpayers and others. Nevertheless, in the context of the economic problems with which the Government is contending, a more constructive atmosphere might have prevailed here. I have been so many years now in this House that I have a very strong affection for it. I dislike very much seeing the status of the House lowered in any way. I dislike seeing the level of these proceedings reduced to that of a public house brawl after the fashion of Deputy McQuillan last week. Above all, I dislike seeing the House's reputation as a deliberative assembly reduced by futility in debate.

It seems to me Deputies opposite are inclined to confuse loquacity with constructive criticism. While we have had a great deal of talk on the Budget we have not got very many ideas for improving on the Government's plans or for an extension of the Government's activities. We have not got any ideas worth taking note of for subsequent examination. I am certain the House can do better than that. I am certain there are on the benches opposite Deputies who are quite capable of that constructive approach and of enunciating here ideas worthy of examination. I am wondering if they have not come to conclude that there is a Party advantage to be gained for them in avoiding committing themselves to any definite opinions or proposals. I may be wrong in that. It is a matter, of course, for their own judgment.

So far as I am concerned, I should prefer to see the House sitting here and facing this economic problem—on which there may be a great deal of difference between us as to how effective action can best be directed but no difference at all as to the aims we all want to see achieved—in the spirit in which a national assembly which realises that this is a critical year in our country's history should approach the problem. Remember, it is in this year that we have got to demonstrate beyond question the capacity to develop a viable economy here and to start our country upon a process that will bring it into line in economic matters with the other countries in Western Europe.

So far as the Government are concerned, we have taken our decisions. We have set forth those decisions for the information of the Dáil and the country in the White Paper on Economic Expansion. It is our determination to hew to that line in the belief that eventually it will lead us to the results that both sides of this House certainly desire.

If popularity is the yardstick by which Budgets should be judged, the Minister for Finance has every reason for satisfaction; like snuff at a wake, he has dispensed to almost every section of the community, with certain exceptions. If, however, the Budget is to be judged on the basis of its financial rectitude and as an instrument of Government policy, it is, I think, open to criticism on a number of grounds.

In the first place, it is quite wrong to say, as the Minister said in his Budget Statement, that the current Budget for 1958-59 was balanced—showed, indeed, a small surplus in contrast with the deficits of roughly £6,000,000 in 1956-57 and 1957-58. Apart from the fact that for years past no Budget has been balanced, if non-productive capital expenditure is properly charged to revenue, the changing of revenue from capital to current account has negatived any basis of comparison between the current year's Budget and the two preceding years. On that ground alone any effort on the part of the Minister to show an improvement by the switching of capital income to current income produces what can only be described as a confusing picture.

I hope that some day we shall have a Minister for Finance who will bring in a Budget showing clearly, if somewhat brutally, the actual cost of running the country, charging to revenue all non-productive outlay. By non-productive outlay I mean schemes or projects which are not capable of sustaining themselves financially, schemes which are a continuing drag on the taxpayer. I appreciate that in our circumstances there must of necessity always be a fairly substantial annual charge for what I describe as social employment. The schemes put forward in the White Paper will take a number of years to fructify and in the interim we have a duty to ensure that our people will be encouraged to remain in their own country.

During the course of this debate there has been considerable discussion, especially on the Government benches, of the urgent necessity of encouraging people to come into this country and employ their capital here. With certain prominent speakers outside this House, I think the most urgent task facing the country at the moment is that of encouraging our own people to remain at home. To do that it is essential that we should consider small local efforts at employment which will produce outlets particularly in the rural areas rather than gigantic million pound schemes. I sometimes think that, instead of thinking in terms of luxury hotels—very desirable developments possibly—we should think more in terms of resuscitating the hand-won turf scheme. That might be immediately of more practical application in meeting the desire of this House to give employment to our people, particularly in the rural areas.

Any country Deputy will agree with me that the greatest necessity at the moment is to improve the consuming power of the people, particularly in rural areas. Anybody who has experience, as I have, of dealing with country shopkeepers or people who draw their livelihood from the people working on the land, on farms or on the roads or who formerly worked on turf schemes, will appreciate the plight of certain towns and villages at present. Considerable publicity has been given outside this House in recent months to the state of affairs in some parts of the country. Members may not agree with the manner in which it was given or the matter that was publicised, but it is substantially true that conditions in rural areas are very serious at present. The tragic part of it is that once a man or wife leaves or, as happens in a big number of cases, a man with his wife and family leave the country, it is very difficult to induce them to come back and accept a lower standard of living which is all we can offer in country areas. That is why the greatest emphasis in any Budget or in a Government scheme should be on the endeavour to encourage employment on rural schemes.

I know it is possibly quite right to talk about efficiency in terms of the cost of machines where they cut the apparent cost of employment and to say that there has been what I suppose one would describe as a progressive movement to replace men by machines in country areas. From time to time, county councillors complain because small quarries are closed down or the engineer recommends the purchase of machinery for road work. On the face of it, these economies seem sensible and progressive and that would seem to be a proper line to adopt, but I often wonder if, in actual fact, the net saving is as great as it seems on paper. Having in mind what I said a few minutes ago about the absolute necessity for keeping people in rural areas, I think it might be no harm for local bodies and the Government also to consider continuing what would appear to be uneconomic schemes, in terms of pounds, shillings and pence, but which in fact keep people employed in rural areas and leave the shopkeeper with something coming into his shop. If it does mean a smaller and restricted type of economy, at least it fulfils what I think is the primary necessity, to keep Irishmen in Ireland.

I should like to express agreement with the Minister's move to reduce import levies, although looking down the list I do not think all of them could be regarded as absolute necessaries. In general, I think it was a move in the right direction. I was encouraged by the Minister's statement that a policy of relaxation would be pursued and in that spirit I should like to join with other Deputies in asking him to reconsider the duty on imported newsprint. This is a raw material we do not manufacture here and I think it has been the policy to allow in raw material for industry free of duty and other prohibitions.

A small matter I wish to bring to the Minister's attention is the levy on rowing "eights" and "fours". Rowing is a manly type of sport which should be encouraged. We do not make these boats and I should like the Minister at an early date to consider reducing the very high levies still existing.

I feel this would be a matter for the Estimate rather than the Financial Resolution.

During the two years in which the Minister has been in charge of our financial affairs, I notice that the charge for Central Fund services has gone up from £18.7 million to £22.4 million, an increase of almost £4 million. This is completely contrary to the intention which the Minister expressed in his Budget speech of 1957 and if it continues to grow with other deadweight charges on the community, it can only have the effect of lapping up the savings that should be going into productive enterprises, whether private projects or the extension of private projects by Government agency.

If I might refer to the Minister's speech of 8th May, 1957, it contained many sensible intentions. On page 10, he said:

"The searching out of wasteful or unnecessary expenditure and its elimination will require keen and continuous attention. But the urgency and difficulty of our Budgetary problem this year required that a start should be made at once."

He goes on to say, that he will mention some specific economies which have already been decided upon "but which represent merely an instalment of what the Government hope in time to achieve." He goes on to mention the cost of the Civil Service and the Defence Forces and so on, and says:

"An annual bill of £17 million for the pay of civil servants is, however, too much for a country of our size and resources."

Two years later, the resources of the country have been reduced by about 25,000 or 30,000 people in employment alone and in population by, I think, about 100,000 persons. If the bill of £17 million was too much for us two years ago, how can the Minister stand over presenting the country with a larger bill this year for a population of 100,000 fewer people? The same argument applies to the general cost of running the country.

The Minister did set out in his speech a number of savings which he intended to carry out and he took credit for £250,000 in that year as a saving by way of anticipated economies. I mention that because in his current Budget speech, the Minister, beyond referring to the cost of the Civil Service and other services in general terms, did not give any indication that satisfied me, at any rate, that he is taking any active steps to reduce the shockingly high cost of running this small and depleted country.

In the current year's Budget speech, on pages 34 and 35, he resumes the theme of the cost of Government:

Before I turn to the position on capital accounts I would like to refer to particular aspects of the cost of Government. There can be no public services without the necessary personnel to provide and administer them.

He goes on to say that the sum which had to be found to meet the cost to the central Government of the Defence Forces, the Garda Síochána and teachers—national, secondary and vocational—in the year just ended was of the order of £34 million. The Minister sets them out again in a very nice table which I have in front of me, headed "Civil Service — £17,000,000"— two years almost to the day after he expressed his intention of taking immediate steps to reduce what he regarded as being too great an impost on a small country such as ours. Perhaps when the Minister is replying he will give us some indication of what steps he will now take and whether this time 12 months he will be able to show a substantial reduction.

On the general question of capital investment, to which the Minister for Industry and Commerce referred, there is no doubt—and I say this with emphasis—that if we are to cure this continuing sore of unemployment, and its concomitant evil emigration, a tremendous capital investment will be necessary. We can get capital only from two sources, internal or external. Internal sources are going down rather than up because, as the Minister for Industry and Commerce said, the economy is not expanding quickly enough. There is not enough profitability either in public or private enterprises to allow investments to be made on an adequate scale and, therefore, we must of necessity turn to external resources for part of our capital investment requirements.

In this regard I feel that we must be more openhanded or generous in our inducements to encourage outside capital to come here. A start in that direction was made last year by the adjustments in the Control of Manufactures Act but, as I said at that time, I do not think the Minister for Industry and Commerce went far enough. I know that he had a sensible regard for the industrialists of this country who invested their capital in existing enterprises under, in most cases, highly protective tariffs. But I feel now, as I felt then, that you cannot have it both ways if you want to encourage outside capital. I think it is not so much a question of trying to have the best of both worlds. I think it is far more necessary to select the type of industrialist you want here and then to give him complete freedom of action rather than just throw a blanket over the whole idea and to treat all applicants in the same way. So many inducements are being offered to foreign capital all over the world that if we are serious in our efforts to attract external capital here quickly— because it must be quickly—we must be far more generous in encouraging foreign industrialists than we have been so far.

With all due respect to the capital budget presented to the Dáil each year, I seriously suggest to the Minister that that programme would need to be very carefully examined again in the light of our financial circumstances. I know that the headings on the face of it sound very encouraging and suggest that we are to spend in the coming financial year, £45,000,000 by way of outlay on various projects. That might give the impression that, as a result, there will be very great improvement in the employment position. I wonder if that is true. I wonder has any realistic assessment been made of the annual capital investment required to tackle the unemployment problem and to put the country in a sound, healthy financial position that will ensure a regular and adequate rate of economic expansion every year.

I do not think that programme— with all respect to the very competent people who assisted in framing it— will achieve the desired results. As I said when I began to speak, I do not think that a number of the items there are capable of sustaining themselves and, of necessity, they will put a further heavy cost on the taxpayer to subsidise them in one form or another in the years ahead. I know that we cannot direct capital into enterprises as can be done in a Socialist-controlled economy. I know that Mr. Khrushchev can decide what people are to eat, how much they are to earn, or under what conditions they are to live and what consumption of goods they will be allowed. You can do those things in a Communist or Socialist-controlled economy. You cannot do them in a free country such as this.

If we are to solve these problems— unemployment and emigration—about which we all preach, very careful consideration will have to be given to the type of investment which is to use up our available capital resources. Taking the long-term view, I think it would be better if we selected what I have described as the more productive types of enterprise rather than those which sound grand on paper and which by reason of having so many noughts after them may, in the long run, only throw another burden on the community.

In that respect it is interesting to know that in the past two years the actual capital expenditure amounted to something like £74,000,000 and over the same period there was a fall of 25,000 in the number of people in employment, or available for employment. I am not suggesting that the expenditure in 1957-58 could or should have given an immediate return but it does suggest that the size and the type of our capital expenditure is not giving an adequate return in terms of employment. I may say I also have very grave doubts about the desirability and the practicability of establishing certain types of industry in out-of-the-way, distant places, far from their markets and which are not suitable to their location. I know again that it sounds very fine to put up a certain type of industry in perhaps, Connemara, or elsewhere in the West of Ireland where unemployment is very heavy, but taking the long-term view some of these projects may prove very costly for the taxpayer and in the final analysis they may find it difficult to exist, particularly if any form of Free Trade Area comes into being, as seems likely to happen.

It is disappointing also, looking back over the two years in which the present Minister has had charge of our financial affairs, to note the comparatively small reduction in the numbers of unemployed. When the Minister took office the percentage of registered unemployed was 7.7. It went up to 9.2 per cent. in 1957 and dropped down to 8.6 per cent. in 1958. The first three months of the present year certainly do not give us any cause for being what I expect the Minister for Industry and Commerce would regard as cheery in regard to the unemployment position in this country.

The figures for imports and exports in 1958 also are disquieting in several aspects. Again, we showed ourselves almost completely dependent on exports of either cattle or agricultural products, whether partly or wholly processed, and out of our total exports of some £130,000,000, in round figures, £100,000,000 was accounted for by agricultural exports of one kind or another. We showed how completely dependent we are on what comes out of the land and how completely dependent we are on what we were told some years ago—I was quite a young lad at the time—we wanted to cut ourselves off from forever.

There are other disturbing indications in those figures which the Minister made available to us. They are the reduction, or almost static terms, of the gross national product in the terms of 1953 prices, and the fall in the total available for savings and capital formation. These are the sort of things which one should see rising with the heavy investment of £74,000,000 over the past two years but, in fact, they are static and they show all is not well with our economy. In answer to a question of mine in the Dáil last week the Minister gave what I would certainly regard as very illuminating figures in connection with the position of our national debt which was virtually nil when the State was established in 1922, but which rapidly rose every succeeding ten years, from £36,000,000 in 1932 to £86,000,000 in 1942, to £191,000,000 in 1952 and last year to £371,000,000. There is no doubt that at the end of this year it will be getting on to the £400,000,000 mark if it goes up at the regular rate of £15,000,000 to £20,000,000 per year as it has been doing for a number of years past.

Looking at the country as it is to-day, and at those figures, one cannot help asking oneself what is there to show for that national debt of almost £400,000,000, not counting the enormous debts which all local authorities have also piled up over the same period. I know that we have far more houses, far more schools and far more buildings of one kind or another than we had 25 or 30 years ago but, as against that, we have fewer people. In the final analysis a country must be judged by the size of its population and the prosperity and happiness of its people and, if that is taken as the yardstick for this country, we have no great reason to congratulate ourselves on the success of our administration over the past 30 odd years.

There has been quite an amount said on this question of overestimation which the Minister approached in somewhat optimistic terms this year. I asked two questions recently, one of which the Minister answered, and in regard to the other he advised me to go to the Dáil Library and seek the information for myself. I took the Minister's advice and found the following interesting information. In the past five years, from 1954-55 to 1958-59, the sums allowed in the annual Budget for over-estimation have varied between £4,000,000 in 1954-55 to £1.5 million last year. The Supplementary Estimates varied from £5.5 million in 1954-55 to £8.8 million in 1957-58 and £3.7 million last year. In brief figures then, the total allowances for over-estimation in the five years ending 1958-59 have come to £12.45 million while the total of Supplementary Estimates covering those years has come to just over £27 million. I think those figures speak for themselves.

I have already said something about the cost of Government and to that I would like to add the cost of local government. Again, looking at the figures presented to all Deputies this year, I find that the cost of central and local government in this small country is now over £3 million a week, almost £160 million per year, if one takes the cost of the services here within the present Budget and adds to that the net cost of the local authorities after allowing for the annual subvention from the Exchequer. The position at the moment is that the cost of running the country is rising faster than the growth of the national income and nothing could be more unhealthy and more dangerous in our present circumstances.

We seem quite unable to reduce the cost of central government and our city and county managers tell us it is quite impossible to reduce the cost of local administration. I feel that one reason for this alarming and continuing increase is the fact that there is now so much overlapping between central and local administration. Anybody who is a member of a local authority knows the farce through which one has to go in connection with, say, housing; the amount of duplication one has to put up with if a person applies for a loan under the Small Dwellings Acts.

You have to get your local engineer out and he sends his report to the city or county manager. Whether he approves of the scheme or not, that means nothing because then it has to go to the Department and the Department's engineer has to come down and may not approve of the scheme. The whole essence of this is that there are more jobs for more people and that tendency is continuing all the time. I believe the thing could be simplified if some form of global estimation for local authorities could be agreed upon and the abilities of city and county managers—which are very extensive—and the experience and watchfulness of local representatives were relied on to carry on all schemes of housing. It would probably mean the loss of jobs for a certain number of people but you cannot have it both ways.

The reduction in the rate of income tax and the raising of the limit for sur-tax are welcome to the sections of the community affected. I think everybody will agree they were inevitable after the British Budget if our position here vis-á-vis the British taxpayer were not to show a most unfavourable comparison. The reliefs to industry, though small in some respects, were also welcome but I do think the Minister might have given more inducements to this section of the economy which the Minister for Industry and Commerce rightly said must be relied upon to provide new and greater openings for employment. I think that the Minister this year might have raised the ceiling for corporation profits tax. The present ceiling of £2,500 has been there for quite a long time now. In England, up to recently, it was £10,000 and then it was abolished altogether.

I made an appeal to the Minister last year, during the discussion on the Finance Bill, to raise that and amongst the arguments I put forward was that this tax bore most heavily on the small or family type of business. I suggested that that was the type of business which, in our circumstances, we should endeavour to encourage. In the case of a family business where there are, perhaps, two or three branches of the family drawing out of the business, a profit of £2,500 or £3,000 is quite small, allowing for a reasonable reward to each branch of the family and the ploughing back of profits to keep the business up to modern pitch and to enable it to withstand the competition of the bigger units which are becoming more and more a feature of our economy.

In order to encourage ploughing back of profits into business generally, the Minister might have imposed a lower rate of tax on retained profits. At present, a person who is not sufficiently interested to invest money in this country or not satisfied with the rate of return on such investment, can make a substantial profit in a business, profession or industry in this country and can invest all of it outside the country. As we know, over the years, a very substantial amount of money has been invested outside the country, mainly because the persons concerned were dissatisfied with the return on investment here or regarded the reward for the risk as inadequate. It would induce industrialists and business people to invest more money in the extension of their own businesses, thereby giving employment, if there were some preferential rate of tax on retained and reinvested profits.

In that context, it should be remembered that, despite what the Minister for Industry and Commerce said, existing businesses, some of which have been established for several generations, are not as well treated and have not got the same opportunities as people coming into the country with outside capital. Anybody starting up an industry and wishing to export can avail of the same concessions as are available to foreign capitalists, but no assistance or inducements such as are available to people coming from outside or Irish people starting a new industry are available to an existing industry that wants to extend its plant or buildings.

The Minister might have extended to exports from mining undertakings the same tax-free concessions as are available to other types of exports. I am glad that the Minister extended for a further five years the arrangement whereby the first four years' profits of a mining enterprise are completely free of tax and the following four years' profits are 50 per cent. free, but that might be extended to the ten year completely tax-free period applicable to other types of exports. The mining industry is going through a difficult time at the moment, particularly base metal mining, and some encouragement of that nature would induce mining promoters to commence operations, possibly, at an earlier date.

There is one bone of contention I have referred to in this House on several occasions, that is, the invidious position in which centres such as Limerick are today, due to the inducements offered at Shannon Airport and in the under-developed areas and the advantages offered to industrialists coming to a large centre of population, the only really large centre of population being Dublin. I appreciate that the Minister's intention is to maintain employment in the free zone of Shannon Airport, but, by creating what I might describe as an industrial oasis at Shannon Airport, he is creating an area of industrial depression in Limerick, Ennis and other centres that are 15 or 20 miles or more from Shannon. Such problems should be tackled on a reasonable basis. A centre such as Limerick should receive the same inducements, grants and other advantages as are available in the under-developed area.

That would be a matter for the relevant Estimate, not for the Financial Resolution.

Several Deputies have suggested that, instead of reducing the effective rate of income tax, it would have been better to increase personal allowances. There is a good deal to be said for that argument. Naturally, it is a good thing to have any reduction in the present rate of direct taxation, but, to a man with a wife and family, an increase in personal and family allowances would have been a very welcome gesture on the part of the Minister this year. In saying that, I am not forgetting the fact that the Minister had not unlimited funds. In fact, several Deputies have contended that he did not have any funds available for all the things which all Deputies might like him to do.

Some day I hope the Minister, or some Minister, will consider giving an allowance to people who employ domestic servants. That may appear to be a peculiar suggestion, but there is a large number of young girls from 15 years and upwards for whom the only outlet of employment at the moment is to go to England. I know from personal experience—I am sure other Deputies are conversant with the picture—that girls of 15 years and upwards are leaving the country in various guises, either with birth certificates belonging to older sisters or going with their parents or going to join their parents. It would be a good thing if there were some way in which these girls could be taught in vocational schools to be good housekeepers and housemaids and the elements of work in the home.

If their wages and conditions of employment could be governed by some joint industrial board or through a trade union, useful employment and good homes could be given to quite a number of young girls. Later on, if they did not like such employment, they would be free to leave. The experience and knowledge gained would be useful at a later stage in their life. If there were some tax allowance, it would give people in middle-class homes with families an opportunity of employing a young girl. The girl need not live in; she could live in her own home. We have reached the stage where the idea of having an extra room in a house for a domestic servant is almost a luxury that cannot be afforded.

I should like to join with Deputies who expressed keen disappointment at the miserable addition to the maximum old age pension. Again, of course, the Minister for Industry and Commerce had a strong argument, that we could not afford any more, that it costs £1 million per 2/6d. Is it not an awful reflection on a country which, more than any other, should set a lead to the world in social justice, that we have the situation where, a few weeks ago, one side of the House nearly brought down the roof here because 2/6d. was added to the maximum payment to an old age pensioner? That incident is an illuminating indication of the stage we have reached.

There is another unfortunate section of the community, those who are depending wholly or partially on disability allowances. They get a maximum allowance of £1 per week. Any Deputy or county councillor will know that these people are in a really shocking condition. I should like to see some addition made to the miserable pittance they receive.

The Minister might consider, if not this year, possibly next year, if he is still with us, the giving of some encouragement to employers who are prepared to introduce pension schemes for their staffs. At present the maximum is £100 or £104 a year—I think I am correct in that. After that, it results in a reduction in the employee's unemployment benefit payment, or national health or, if he is over 70, his old age pension, and any benefit given by the employer is merely removed from the State's social services. Some adjustment of the means test in that case would be an inducement to employers to put their staffs, and particularly those who have been with them for a long number of years, in a position in which they could enjoy a reasonable measure of comfort in their old age.

The main bulk of wage earners are not affected by the Budget beyond the small concessions to the beer drinkers, but the adult wage earner will not gain anything. The only thing he can hope for is that he will benefit indirectly—the Minister said that this is an incentive Budget which will induce private enterprise to invest capital in industrial undertakings and thereby give more employment.

The farmers, of course, are not affected, particularly the one section of the agricultural community upon which the economy of the country rests, the dairying farmers, who are a dying race. They work seven days a week and get no holidays. The only time they are thought of by the people who live far away from the dairying areas is when they come up here, have a protest march and get their names in the papers, with amusing photographs. That is one section with which I have personal contact, and there is no doubt when the present generation have gone, their sons will not take up a seven day week job. Anybody who has any experience of dairying will bear me out in that.

The addition to the unemployment assistance allowance is miserable. Deputies, particularly city Deputies, know that a man who has to live with his wife and two or more children— the "more" being any number up to ten—on 41/- or 42/- a week, is living in direst poverty. If it were not for the help given by a number of very fine charitable organisations and individuals, these people would be virtually starving to death.

I should like to say that the future prosperity of the country, and the solution of our ever-continuing problems of unemployment and emigration, are dependent, in the main, on adequate and genuine productive capital investment. I said that a few moments ago, but I should like to underline the fact that unless the investments are productive in terms of long-term results, it is quite useless to say: "We gave £40 million or £50 million credit and the other crowd gave only £30 million. Vote for us the next time." It means nothing without an adequate return from the people in employment, with more efficiency and economy in the running of government, both central and local and, let me say, in the private sector of the economy. My suggestion is that overlapping occurs between the central and local administration.

I also think we must, of necessity, keep, and continue to keep, a very close watch on all types of imports. There is no doubt that the people of this country will make sacrifices, as they made sacrifices in the past, if they are called upon to do so, and do without things which are luxury articles which we either cannot produce or can very well manage without.

A very strict watch should be kept on the importation of items of all types of machinery, motor cars, petrol, agricultural machinery and so on. I do not believe, having regard to the enormous importation of machinery of all types over the past 15 or 20 years, that the country has got an adequate net return in terms of £ s. d. and certainly not in terms of additional employment. I believe the activities of councils, commissions, committees and Government boards, are all quite useless, unless an immediate effort is made to keep people in the country, particularly in the rural areas. We do not need councils and commissions of all kinds to make us realise that unless something is done immediately in the rural areas, there will be less and less consumption, and more and more commissions, with eventually one commission sitting to decide how the remainder will work more efficiently and with greater productivity.

I suggest the Minister and the Government should consider reopening, purely as an emergency measure, the handwon turf schemes and cutting down on our imports of coal. An examination of that might result in some form of inducement to the farmers who, so far as I can see, are, at the moment, being encouraged to disemploy men. No production however efficient and however expansive is any use unless we can sell it. I think— and Deputy O'Sullivan mentioned the fact—the question of marketing our agricultural products has been allowed to drift on and nothing has been done about it. Many successful undertakings and many successful individuals have made vast fortunes by selling first and buying and producing afterwards. If we do not keep the two things hand in hand, if selling and production are divorced one from the other, and particularly if production is divorced from selling, our efforts to increase productivity and reduce costs are completely wasted.

On the human side—it was mentioned in the Minister's Budget statement; I do not recall which part of it—the Minister made a very sensible and I believe, knowing the Minister, a very human reference to the human element. All the plans, all the money being spent and everything else, will not succeed unless we can induce our people to make a great united national effort, and persuade them that in doing so they are helping themselves and the country and that there are very tangible benefits both for themselves and the country. The call they will listen to is a call that can come only from positive leadership, a positive leader and a positive Government who know what they are doing. I am convinced the people will make the requisite sacrifice if they are persuaded that the sacrifices are equitably distributed and that no one section of the community will gain at the expense of the other.

If we can do that and demonstrate that we, who are here in this House to represent them, are serious in our efforts, I am convinced they will make a united effort, but if we do not persuade them, or if they disbelieve us and think we are just a fraudulent collection of loquacious gentlemen who attend here from time to time, we cannot blame them if their reply is just cynicism and lack of effort. If we persuade them that we are serious I believe our people will make sacrifices in this generation just as they did in the past.

I have mainly one criticism to make of this Budget, that is, that if the provisions of this Budget are justifiable this year, then the provisions are at least a year too late, in other words that the timing of this Budget is bad and that if the calculated risk the Minister decided to take this year is one he is justified in taking—and I certainly agree with him that he is—then he would have been still more justified in taking the risk last year, and the country is the poorer because he did not. That, as I say, is the chief criticism I have to make on this Budget and I propose to develop that point a little further in the remarks I have to make. Before doing so, however, there are one or two general matters with which I should like to deal at the outset having regard, in particular, to the remarks made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce to-day and some earlier remarks made by the Minister for External Affairs during this debate.

We have been told by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that he looks with a certain dismay at the proceedings of this House and the level of debate. He asks for constructive proposals and hopes there will be some kind of unified effort to achieve the solution of the problems facing the country. I want to recall to the memory of the House the day on which this Government were elected. Speaking on behalf of my Party which had come into Opposition, having finished the most difficult period of government with which any Government since the establishment of this State had to grapple, I said, and I recall it not for the first time in this House, that not merely were the Government, which had got a large over-all majority, on trial but that the Dáil itself was on trial by the people and that unless a solution and an early solution were found for the problems afflicting the country in regard to unemployment, emigration, expansion in industry and in trade and social amelioration, a very grave situation might face the country.

On that occasion we offered from these benches our close co-operation. It is a little difficult now for us to sit here and listen to the pious expressions of views from Minister and from certain Deputies that everybody ought to unite. I have the most firm conviction that on certain matters of economic and financial policy there ought to be a concentration of effort to secure a solution of our problems. We offered that and it has been practically thrown in our faces by the way in which the discussions of affairs, particularly economics and finance, have been conducted since this Dáil was elected over two years ago.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce to-day gave from his point of view the best account he could of an improvement in the economy. There is some improvement in the economy. I have never faltered in my belief in the future of this country. But even Ministers and some Deputies in the Fianna Fáil Party have used the time-worn phrase: "There is no ground for complacency." In other words while they are trying to paint the best picture they can, they admit there are certain very great difficulties still inherent in the economy. Having stated that, the Minister for Industry and Commerce then proceeds to denigrate the efforts made by his predecessors when they were faced with far greater difficulties than his Government or any Fianna Fáil Government have met since they came into this House.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce said that the decline in employment that was proceeding at an accelerating pace when they took office was arrested and that the spiritual malnutrition from which the country was suffering as a result of the policy of the last inter-Party Government was being overcome, or words to that effect. The Minister for External Affairs, as reported at column 532, Volume 174, of the Dáil Debates of the 16th April, 1959, said:—

"The Minister is to be congratulated that, in his third Budget he has cleared up the second financial mess left by Coalitions."

Is that the way in which to secure from all Parties that degree of co-operation which I am sincerely convinced is necessary for the wellbeing of the country? Since this Government came into office it has been the policy of Ministers, supported of course by their followers in the back benches and throughout the country, to denigrate the achievements of their predecessors even at the expense of jeopardising the economic and financial fabric of the State. That is bad policy from the point of view of the national interest. It would be far better from the point of view of the country, far better politics from the point of view of Fianna Fáil itself and certainly would be far better for future Governments who may be faced with difficult economic and financial situations, if they did state fairly and adequately what is the truth, and what everybody with any integrity and impartiality now admits to be the truth—that the last inter-Party Government, faced as it was with a very difficult situation, took the necessary unpopular steps to deal with that situation and, as a result, handed over to this Government a situation where the danger had been averted and the country's finances had been put on the way to a sound condition.

Undoubtedly there was very grave unemployment at that time due to circumstances over which we had no control. Undoubtedly there was a very grave shortage of money. Undoubtedly prices rose because the terms of trade were against us, but in spite of that the unpopular measures that were taken resulted in the fact that cannot be controverted that the year 1957 ended with a substantial surplus on our balance of payments account running to over £15 million. If this Government are ever faced with such a situation— and I certainly hope in the national interest they will never be faced during their term of office with anything like the situation we had—what hope can they have of gaining public confidence or persuading the people they were doing right in the national interest if they pursue the policy they have operated since the Government came into office of suggesting that because we were faced with a difficult financial and economic situation which forced us to take appropriate measures, we had done something to the national finances.

According to the Minister for External Affairs, the Minister in this Budget has cleared up the second financial mess left by Coalitions. The Minister for Industry and Commerce said more or less the same thing to-day. If that class of attack could be ended, there might be some hope of getting unity, not merely in this House but in the country, to meet and solve the economic problems which still await solution and which are only in such a condition that the Minister has to take the faltering and tentative steps which he is taking belatedly in this Budget to give the necessary stimulus so much needed to secure expansion of business and agricultural activity.

We are entitled to take some measure of gratification from the fact that our efforts during the years when in and out of office, and conditions, have helped to bring about a situation where a Fianna Fáil Government is able to reverse their financial and economic policy. Their financial policy has been one of high taxation. I think this is the first Budget where there is any sort of indication of a reversal of that policy, which is so much needed if we are to have an expansionist policy put into operation. Only on one occasion before, I think, during twenty-two years of office, have Fianna Fáil ever decreased taxation. I am sure that those people who obtain reliefs or benefits under the Budget are thankful for them. They may have their own views, I am certain of it, as to the impulses which brought about the easement of the situation by way of taxation and other benefits in this Budget—whether it was force of circumstances arising from a reduction of the income tax in Great Britain or from the economic circumstances in the country or even from political considerations. All these things can be set aside.

This Budget is a step in the right direction but it is an untimely step as it is one that should have been taken last year. If the Minister is right in taking the calculated risk he is taking this year then he would have been very much more justified in taking it last year. In 1957, as I have already pointed out, this country was in the happy position, for the first time for many years, of having such a large balance in the proper direction in our international balance of payments accounts. The 1957 Budget was the first Budget brought in by the present Government. We know the provisions contained in that Budget. We know it was felt and is still being felt in the economy throughout the country. They were faced in 1958 with making another Budget, having at that time taken away all the food subsidies and obtained the benefit of the millions thereby saved. They continued the standstill policy. I want Deputies to consider how far we would be in advance on the road towards the betterment of our economy and finance if the risk that is being taken this year had been taken last year.

The Irish Banking Review, a quarterly Review—the particular number is that of March, 1959, page 27—gives interesting figures, on which I base the argument I am putting forward. It deals with the balance of payments for 1958. I shall just refer to that very briefly:

The deficit on visible account was £67.2 million, an increase of £13.6 million over 1957.

Here is the significant feature:

The terms of trade moved strongly in Ireland's favour. Import prices fell by 5.2 per cent. and export prices rose by 5.1 per cent. It is expected that the invisible balance will have slightly improved, in which case the balance of payments will probably be in equilibrium. The external reserve situation improved during the year. The net external assets in the banking system increased by £14.4 million.

There is a very succinct estimate of a vital part of the economic fabric of our State during 1958. The terms of trade were moving strongly in Ireland's favour. There was a favourable balance of trade in 1958. I want to emphasise this:

The net external assets in the banking system increased by £14.4 million.

This year, so far as it has gone, the terms of trade seem still to be moving in our favour, I am glad to say. The trend of trade, however, in the first three months is not so very hopeful. But, if in the circumstances of the present time, the Minister is justified in what he is doing, surely he would have been more justified still in doing it last year when, in the previous year, there had been a very big balance of trade; when, in 1958, the terms of trade were moving strongly in our favour and there was likely to be, and in fact turned out to be, a fairly good balance of international payments and external assets were accumulated to the extent of £14.4 million?

If the Minister had done that last year he would have been far more justified in doing it than in this year. In 1958, as I have said, there was a very big addition to our net external assets in the banking system. The interpretation of that interesting fact really is that the Government, instead of pursuing the policy which they now seem to be adopting of encouraging economic activity, adopting an expansionist policy, really kept down economic activity during that year for the benefit of the foreign capital which came into the country during that year.

Last year thousands emigrated. Employment, so far from increasing, as the Minister for Industry and Commerce appeared to suggest today, from the point of view of those people in employment, fell pretty drastically. Fewer people were employed in that year than in the previous year. All the time, emigration was at a high level while there was stagnation in our economy; while business was extremely bad, £14.4 million were piled up in the banking system and invested abroad. If that £14.4 million had been invested here last year, look at the difference it would have made to the country and to the Minister's Budget this year.

The policy that was permitted, if indeed it was not encouraged, was one that enabled the banks to sterilise and turn to the advantage of Gt. Britain all the capital which came here from abroad. If we had gone 12 months ago to the point of the Minister taking his courage in his hands, as he has done this year, and giving the reliefs or something like them as a stimulus to industry and a slight indication of an expansionist as distinct from restrictionist policy, we would have had economic activity last year and our economy would be far better this year. Therefore, I say that the chief criticism of this Budget is that it is really a year too late.

One should look at the balance of trade figures, which show the general trend of the balance of payments. Those trade figures are given on a monthly basis. The figures which appear in the trade statistics for the first three months of 1959 show an increased deficit over the same three months of 1958. Of course, if that trend continues, there may well be a very serious imbalance in the balance of payments for this year. In that set of circumstances, the Minister feels able to relax the system of taxation here in this year's Budget, the relaxation of which would merely tend to accentuate and not to curb the trend, the adverse trend, in the balance of trade figures, as I have just stated. I wish to place my real criticism of the Budget on that basis.

It is some gratification to know that we have at least a little indication that the Fianna Fáil Ministers, for the first time, are changing from a system of restriction to a system of expansion. It is also pertinent to recall to Deputies, having regard to the speech of the Minister for Industry and Commerce this afternoon, the advice which he gave to us when we were first in office in 1948. I remember when he was in these benches here, looking across at us in that truculent way he has, and saying to us that the Government, the first inter-Party Government, should teach the people to give the Government their savings, so that the Government might spend their savings for them, because they could do the spending of their money better than the people could do it. That was the advice we got; in other words, tax the country to the highest possible point, get as much money as you can for the Government and spend it on Government purposes.

That was the policy which the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who lectured us here today in the way he did, pressed upon us. We refused it, and we—in circumstances which were favourable at that time—took advantage of the economic conditions; and we, as I suppose the Minister would say now, indulged in an expansionist policy. We refused to take the people's money from them and spend it. We gave some of the people's money back to the people and let them spend it for themselves. That is a policy I would recommend to the Government and particularly to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. We believed in giving the money back to the people and letting them spend their own money.

That is what we endeavoured to do, at a time when we were able to reduce taxation, because a reduction of taxation, as the Minister appears now to have learned, is the real remedy, or one of the real remedies, for the afflictions, economic and financial, which confront us. It is because of high taxation that the country has got itself into the position in which even the Government, bringing in a Budget of the character they have brought into operation in this country this year, must tell the people that they cannot regard the situation with complacency.

It is the régime of high taxation, which was a hallmark of Fianna Fáil, which is largely responsible for the situation in which we find ourselves. Yet the Minister for External Affairs has the audacity to say in this House, as I have quoted already, that the Minister has "cleared up the second financial mess left by the Coalition." We gave decreased taxation and increased social benefits at the same time, when the first inter-Party Government were in office. It was due to a misinterpretation of the economic and financial facts in existence in 1952, that the country was confronted with Deputy MacEntee's Budget of that year, from the consequences of which we are still suffering. Deputies who were here at that time will recall that the Budget of 1952 was based upon the consideration that there was no possibility of increased agricultural production. Look at the increased agricultural production which occurred from the year 1951 onwards, due to the policy we adopted. I repeat that it is bad for the national welfare that statements of this kind should be made by the Minister for External Affairs and repeated, in effect, by the Minister for Industry and Commerce today.

Deputies have not spoken so much in this debate on a topic which loomed very large some years ago—the question of expenditure on productive capital enterprises. That was one of the principal planks upon which our economic policy was based, in the first inter-Party Government, which initiated that policy of productive capital expenditure and the repatriation of our external assets for productive purposes and also for certain human improvement schemes. There has been, in the past few years—and it appears even in the economic documents which have been produced by the Government—a progressive decline in the amount of moneys available or set apart for the financing of schemes of productive capital enterprises

I do not think—and certainly it is open to doubt—that the schemes adumbrated in these economic documents which have been circulated by the Government really are schemes which will come to any degree of fruition or will introduce any substantial increase in employment. The whole basis of financing Government schemes of capital expenditure must be actuated in the first place, by the principle that all those schemes must be directed, not to the mere expenditure of money but to expenditure on productive enterprises. It is for that reason that we object to the vast amount of money which has been rolled into the roads of this country. It is very pleasant to go from here to Cork, or from Dublin to Galway or elsewhere, on the roads which exist at the moment. However, we could have done that, perhaps, by straightening dangerous corners and doing a little more for the county roads—which was our policy—than by giving us these wide motor roads we have at the moment, under the justification that they are for tourist traffic. There were very many schemes to which the millions of money, which could have been saved on those schemes, could have been diverted.

It is for that reason that we object strongly to any of the taxpayers' money being poured into schemes such as transatlantic air lines. On the occasion of the inauguration of the transatlantic air line by Aer Linte some 18 months ago, as I was seeing some of the Americans visiting Dublin, I was asked whether I was against the air line—an air line between Ireland and America. I said I was not against an air line, on one condition only, that none of the taxpayers' money be put into it. Let us have as many air lines as we wish—between here and America or Hong Kong or Timbuctoo, provided none of the taxpayers' money is poured into it. There are far more urgent matters requiring attention here than financing schemes of that kind.

Even Fianna Fáil are converted now to what should have been elementary economic doctrine for this country, the basic improvement of agriculture. They now seem to pay at least lip service to that principle, yet we find them taking away one of the main planks in the land reclamation scheme, which has been such a success and which has brought such increased productivity to this country and enabled the country to weather its storms. If we had not had the increased productivity brought about by the establishment of the Land Reclamation Scheme by the first Inter-Party Government and the increase in our exports, particularly in our cattle exports, which were so much decried by Fianna Fáil, the country would have been in an extremely bad condition indeed. If at a time when we require the greatest degree of incentive to our farmers, the greatest amount of effort to be put into increasing agricultural production above all things, we find that the prop is taken away from under one of the best schemes that have been devised to ensure an increase of wealth here through our agricultural industry, then we can have little hope for the amelioration which the Minister says is taking place or even for the genuineness of their belief in the importance of the agricultural industry.

I have spoken here on many occasions on the subject of the necessity for increasing the wealth of the country by various means. I do not intend to pursue again the line of the necessity for increasing agricultural production. I am sure that has been done over and over again; perhaps it cannot be repeated too often. But one of the ways, apart from increasing our wealth by the absolutely essential means of increasing our agricultural production, is to attract foreign capital here or at least to attract people who will bring their money into the country and invest it here or else secure through the proceeds of their investment, whether here or abroad, additional revenue to the country.

I pleaded years ago in this House— and I think I came back to it last year —for consideration of the abolition of death duties. When we were in office in the first inter-Party Government we initiated that policy. We did what we could in the circumstances of the time to ease the burden of death duties. There is only £2 million involved. If that was completely removed—it could be done progressively and fairly rapidly—you would get far more wealth into this country, which would be employed here and which would itself create more wealth, than you would get from death duties at present.

People would bring their capital here, invest it in the country probably and certainly live in the country and spend their money here, thereby producing more revenue for the State. I believe it would pay ten times over. I commend it once again from the point of view, purely, of the revenue and also from the point of view of producing wealth in the country. I advocated it many years ago—I think on the Supplementary Budget of 1947 when I spoke at great length on this topic. It was one of the many hopes unrealised during my term of office and not put into practical effect.

We are exhorting the people of the country to save. Self-employed people —professional men, and those in the Civil Service, clerical and other jobs of that kind—have really only one effective means of making provision for their families in the event of their early death or for themselves and their families when they reach old age. That is by insurance. We have had the position unfortunately, as a result of world events over the past 45 years, that the value of money has fallen catastrophically. So that those people who insured their lives years ago as the only method of securing themselves in their old age, of making provision for their families or of giving them some easement during their lifetime, find that the proceeds of that insurance—paid for with such pain and at such sacrifice —have fallen in their real value. Yet when a person collects that asset, he finds there is a lump taken off in death duties.

I had hoped that some Minister—in fact I had the matter put on inquiry— would see what could be done and would realise the justice of the case of that self-employed man—whose assets, equipment and machinery consist of his health, brains, hands, perhaps his feet, and in the case of some types of people, perhaps their voices—and that some allowance such as is made to industrialists for the depreciation of their capital assets would be made for the depreciation in their mental and physical condition as a measure of justice.

I want to repeat, and I shall go on repeating it so long as I have the capacity to do so, that I hope some Government at some time will see the national advantage that would accrue to this country by the abolition of these death duties, which are outmoded now in modern circumstances, whatever justification they may have had when they were introduced into the British Parliament in the late nineteenth century to redistribute some of the wealth of the people who had accumulated wealth during the industrial revolution. It is a disincentive to the savings that we all affect, at all events, to want our people to bend their energies towards increasing. What is the use of saving if a large lump sum has to be given up when you die to be frittered away by some Government? What is the use of spending all your years building up some little pool for your family when a large part of it will be taken away in death duties? It is an unjust tax, but I do not even ask on the grounds of its injustice that it be taken away. I do so because of the fact that it is better national policy, looked at from a strictly materialistic point of view.

While on the subject of capital expenditure there was one matter to which I should have referred. I should like to refer to it briefly now. Many speeches are made and much written matter disseminated by newspapers and Chambers of Commerce deploring the extent of Government spending and the fact that money is taken from the stock markets for Government purposes that should be available to private enterprise. To a certain extent the criticism is justified, but I think it is not entirely justified because, provided two conditions are fulfilled in relation to State capital expenditure— that is to say that the schemes on which the money is spent are schemes of productive enterprise, and that they are intended to supplement the efforts of private enterprise—I think it good national business that capital investment should be conducted by the State because it aids private enterprise, steps in where private enterprise is unable to work effectively and, above all, creates that pool of employment so necessary in any circumstances, but all the more necessary in the present circumstances.

I think there is a fallacy in some of the arguments put forward by the people who spoke in that way because they say that the State, in going year after year for National Loans, is interfering with the money market and preventing private enterprise from getting the money it ought to get for increasing its capital and developing its business. In the first place, the best way of letting private enterprise create its own capital is by decreasing taxation. But, in any event, if schemes of productive capital enterprise are properly thought-out, and properly carried out, the addition that is caused each year—according to these people who spoke—to the national debt and the interest that must be paid on that additional national debt year after year as it accumulates, is, in a very great degree, liquidated by the increased assets and spending power and increased yield of revenue brought about by the increased production, provided the capital is spent on productive enterprises.

The argument is that you go year after year and borrow money and, year after year, you thereby increase the national debt and the amount of interest to be paid on it. If the schemes are proper schemes, not merely does the amount of interest each year become a mathematical calculation but the results accruing, if the moneys are properly invested, though they may not go the whole extent, will go a long way in liquidating interest charges.

There is one final matter upon which I have a certain deep personal feeling. Deputy Cosgrave raised the question of the necessity for removing the tax on newsprint. I am not so much interested, perhaps, in the repeal of the tax as I am in the principle involved. When the special levies were imposed, they were imposed in the interests of the security of our national financial structure. It was stated most specifically—I took many an opportunity subsequently to emphasise the point —that these duties were temporary and would be removed at the earliest possible moment. That was our intention. It was our desire to do justice all round, even where doing justice might involve hardship. Where these duties were concerned, we felt there could be no exception. The duties were imposed on a range of commodities and that range was inflexible, so inflexible that it could almost be said we were defeated in the last election because we did not take the levy off oranges.

The tax on newsprint was of that character. That tax affected our newspapers here. We felt, however, that it was fair at the time. But we made it clear that every levy was of a temporary character and it was my firm intention that these duties would go at the earliest possible moment. That was also the intention of my colleagues in the Cabinet. Some of these levies have now been incorporated into permanent taxation by the Government. Included in those is the tax on newsprint. I regard that action as a breach of faith and because it is a breach of faith, I most strongly object to it. It was accepted by the Opposition—now the Government—at the time these levies were imposed that they would be of a purely temporary nature. We realised that they fell heavily on people and called for a certain amount of sacrifice. We believe that was accepted by the then Opposition.

Deputies will remember how we resisted the temptation to use the yield from these levies, as we could so easily have done, for revenue purposes. We passed a special section in the Finance Act to put the levies into capital account. We did not yield to the temptation to which our successors have yielded to use the proceeds of the levies as annual revenue. I register now a solemn note of protest. I believe the incorporation of these levies, which were specifically intended to be of a temporary nature only, into permanent taxation is a breach of faith with the nation and with those affected by these levies.

In so far as the Budget and the various matters manifested in the course of the Budget speech reflect Government policy, this Budget must be subjected to a good deal of criticism as, indeed, it has been in the course of the discussion so far.

I can sympathise with any Minister for Finance or any Government who set about reducing the cost of government. The only objection I have in this instance is that the promise has not been fulfilled by the performance. It must have been as obvious to the Minister for Finance in 1957 as it was obvious to earlier Ministers for Finance that a reduction in the cost of government would be exceedingly difficult. Most Government Departments have become to a very great extent quasi-vested interests and from a human point of view, it is extremely difficult to ask Heads of Departments to engage in a scheme of pruning which might result in depriving somebody of an opportunity of entering the Civil Service or hurrying the unjustifiable exit of an already serving civil servant.

The fact that the cost of government is high does not connote any inefficiency. It is not due to any element of redundancy. The cost of government has reached its present level because of the compensation which has had to be made to staffs to enable them and their families to meet the exigencies of the times. That is true not alone of the Civil Service but of all outside employment as well.

It has been said that this is an election Budget. That has been vigorously denied by Deputy Briscoe. But it was admitted by the Minister for the Gaeltacht. He argued that, that being so, this is a good Budget. Now that kind of reasoning does not appeal to me because it is the kind of reasoning which solemnly asserts that anything which is not white must, of necessity, be black, forgetting the very wide and varied range of colours in between. If this is an election Budget—I think the coming elections were considered in relation to the presentation of the Budget—it is a very poor Budget. I do not believe it can be expected to achieve any great results á propos the forthcoming contests for the Office of President or the change in the electoral system. It is true, of course, as Deputy Russell put it, that like snuff at a wake a certain amount has been distributed round about but it has been so insignificant that it is not likely to bring about any great results so far as electoral successes are concerned.

Not alone personally, but on behalf of my Party, I welcome whatever increases have been given in old age pensions and to the widows and orphans, the unemployed, and to those in the State pensioner class. The only criticism I have to make is that they are not enough and if I might venture to prophesy, particularly in the case of the old age pensioners, the widows and orphans and the unemployed, when these provisions are put into operation, the people who expect some little benefit to accrue from the increases, will get a rude shock when they discover that the means test will be applied much more vigorously than ever before. Indeed, it has been applied and is being applied vigorously at present. Those who have been receiving certain items of home assistance to supplement existing payments under these headings will discover that the home assistance allowance will be reduced by the corresponding increase under the measures contemplated in this Budget. Even if the people were to get the whole amount, the old age pensioner or any other pensioner will not find himself in any way better off than he was in 1909 when he received 5/- a week.

It is, of course, human to try to spread the benefits over as much of the community as possible but I do not really see the point in giving concessions to dance hall owners, greyhound race promoters and promoters of professional boxing unless some resultant benefit will come to patrons of these forms of sport. I do not think it means in this case any reduction in prices to patrons of dance halls, pictures, greyhound or boxing stadia. Having regard to their composition, we know that these are the people we might have expected to benefit under a Budget prepared by the present Government.

On behalf of the Amateur Boxing Associations of the country I should like to protest against the concession given to professional boxing. I am not concerned at all with what people make or how they dispose of their profits but I think the social aspect of amateur boxing is one much more worthy of consideration than to expose it to the hardship and the difficulties which the impetus given to professional boxing as a result of this Budget will expose it.

I do not hope for any great amelioration of the people's circumstances from this Budget or indeed from any implementation of it so far as I am concerned in the West of Ireland or from anything in the White Paper which has been so much discussed both in relation to this Budget and by itself. The people in the West of Ireland and the congested areas simply do not exist so far as Government planning can be analysed in these matters. In the preparation of schemes for the purported benefit of the people I am afraid that, as in the case of our legislation, we are inclined to look across the Irish Sea for inspiration, not alone for the idea but even for the actual expression of the idea. To any Deputy who might be interested I would say: "Compare the present White Paper and Plan for Economic Recovery with a similar plan now known in England as the ‘Dalton Plan'," because it began with Mr. Hugh Dalton some years ago. Not alone will the Deputy be convinced of the illusory nature of the plan but he will see the illusory nature of the benefits that might come from that kind of plan.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce spoke today of leprechauns, fairies and banshees and deplored the wailing and the gloom. I think it was rather a threnody he chose because if anybody can lay claim to be the most successful leprechaun in the country, with 255 pots at the bottom of every moonbeam and in every pot a million pounds it is the Minister for Industry and Commerce himself. Wherever there is disappointment and wherever the people feel they have been deliberately disappointed you will have wailing, gloom and the banshee element. I do not know that the banshee might not be better than the good fairies and the leprechauns who are supposed to bring things to people but who, on close examination we find, never really do. The note of warning is to my mind much stronger and more effective a note than unimplemented promises. To apply the test laid down by the Minister for Industry and Commerce for good Government—the acid test he called it—how have they dealt with emigration and unemployment? I think the tale, in the case of Fianna Fáil, is a sorry one and any efforts to camouflage it or to talk about an expanding economy will only produce more gloom and more banshee wailing.

Talking of economy, I would ask what are the signs of an expanding economy? What criteria would one adopt in order to determine whether an economy is expanding or otherwise? I suggest just three simple things. In any expanding economy all over the world it has been noticed that these three things exist. The first is that people rush in, and not alone that, but the natural increase in population is adequately catered for out of the nation's resources progressively dealt with and employed. Are the people rushing in here and is the natural increase in population adequately catered for? I think the answer to the second point, as admitted by the Minister for Industry and Commerce today is certainly: "No". Cobh, Shannon, Dún Laoghaire and the North Wall bear ample testimony in answer to the question—"Do people rush in?"

Secondly, there is the question of capital investment. Even inside the country, if we want capital investment, the dividends must be made very high if any capital is to be attracted, and in relation to other countries the amount of capital investment sought is very small indeed.

Thirdly, is there a spirit of optimism abroad, or is it simply a negative sort of spirit, or is it a spirit of defeat? Again, we must look at our unemployment figures and at our figures for emigration and we must come down heavily on the side of those who say that there is defeat there. There are far fewer people in insurable employment now than there were this time last year, and there were far fewer in insurable employment then than in the year before. That is explained away by the Minister for Industry and Commerce as relations on the land, and the fall off in production and the introduction of new techniques. Certainly the introduction of new techniques should not mean that people should run away from the increased benefits that one would expect from new techniques.

In my view, the people are going away from a country in which they had great hope, a hope which has been dashed by the non-implementation of the promise down the years. We have now reached the stage at which public men, be they in the Dáil, Seanad or in the county council, of every Party are looked upon simply as the purveyors of the promise, without any regard for its performance. Such a situation and such a development in the civic mind can have nothing but the most disastrous results. We are still not too late and I welcome the exhortation of the Minister for Industry and Commerce today when he said that he would like this House to be a deliberative assembly. I join with him in the hope that we are all in agreement in wishing for our country's success, while we might disagree as to the methods to achieve that success. But if we are to have a deliberative assembly and have a concerted effort for success, it must be in everything and we must have the armour of good will. Let every man —this does not apply to public men alone—in every walk of life—captains of industry, leaders on the land, leaders of trade unions—lead and encourage every man and woman beneath him to be leaders in their own sphere of life. In that way, we will get the concerted effort which we all desire, provided that at all times the banner we carry in marching towards that objective is the banner of truth and a banner that will give confidence to our people that truth will take its proper place in the public life of the country.

My object in speaking is to close this debate, so far as the Fine Gael Party are concerned. We have had a discussion for a number of days on this Budget and I think it is worth noting that in the Budget of 1959, the Minister set out deliberately to bring in, in so far as it is possible for a Fianna Fáil Minister to do it, a Budget which he believed would be a popular Budget.

We know that this Budget was introduced because of the political situation which faces the Minister and his colleagues in the next six weeks or so. In that regard, the Budget has been rather a damp squib. It has not aroused the hoped for interest and I believe, on examination, it will be found that the people expected a great deal more and are sorely disappointed with its provisions. Deputy Sweetman, Deputy Dillon and other Deputies on this side of the House have called into question the manner in which the Minister has framed this Budget. A charge has been made that, this year, the Minister, for the immediate purposes he had to meet, did a certain amount of juggling with the figures. A charge has been made that in relation to the year just ended where the Minister claims a small surplus, in fact, had he adopted accepted methods, he would have closed with quite a serious deficit.

It certainly causes some anxiety when we find that last year the Minister deliberately transferred from capital account moneys that were received for that purpose. He also adopted the resort of borrowing for certain commitments which previously had been met out of current revenue. The House has been reminded that if the Minister had applied the same methods as were applied by his predecessor, if he had permitted the receipts from the special import levies to go for capital purposes, as was the intention, then the year which has closed would have ended with a deficit of around £4,000,000.

We all know that depending on the method adopted and depending on the point of view adopted, quite a different story can be told with any set of figures. One cannot help being doubtful about what has been done this year. There is little doubt that in the Minister's mind, the wish was father to the thought. He desired to be able to say this year: "Well, here we are with a surplus behind us and we are now able to give certain reliefs to the people." The fact is that these reliefs are contained in a Budget which the Minister claims will balance because of certain expedients which he has adopted. He is borrowing where he should not; he is assuming where he should not; and some day the bills which he is incurring now will have to be paid. Of course, that day will not be in the next few weeks; it will be a day when some other Minister will have to meet the exigencies created now for political purposes by the present Minister for Finance.

It has been demonstrated clearly in this debate that a juggling of figures has taken place, that a change in the accounts has been decided upon by the Minister in order to introduce a political Budget. We accuse the Minister and the Government of doing crooked things with the national finances. We believe that this is a crooked Budget, designed to bring about the adoption of the straight vote system by the people in the coming Referendum.

It will be interesting to hear what the Minister has to say on the very careful analysis of this Budget and the last two Budgets made by Deputy Sweetman. We are supposed to believe, if we are to take seriously the speeches made by the Minister and his colleagues in this debate, that the country is out of its difficulties now, that all of us are feeling better, that we are far better off, that the dark clouds have been wiped away and that the sun is beginning to shine again. I wonder if people outside listen patiently to that kind of talk. Do Members of the Government and their supporters here seriously believe that merely by saying things of that kind they are proving anything? The object of the Opposition in this debate has been to wipe away some of the clouds of nonsense which have been spread by the present Government.

What are the facts? The Government were elected two years ago in the height of an economic crisis. They were elected in an election which became necessary at a time when this country was face to face with a serious economic problem. The year 1956— particularly the latter part of it—had been a bad year for Ireland, just as it had been bad for most other countries in this part of the world. The economic blizzards blowing then beset us, just as they did more powerful and richer countries. We ran a balance of payments problem of serious dimensions and the then Government courted and experienced considerable unpopularity because they faced up to their responsibility in relation to the country and applied certain solutions for that problem, which meant hardship for certain sections of the people. But what had to be done was done. Despite the unpopularity involved, the then Government, having decided their course, proceeded to act accordingly.

The Fianna Fáil Party at that time were not a bit choosey in what they said. They were prepared then to make political capital out of Ireland's national difficulties. I assert it as a fact that in 1956 the Fianna Fáil Party procceded to shake the confidence of ordinary people in this country of ours. They created a national malaise whereby young people, even in decent employment, left their jobs and emigrated, not merely to England but elsewhere. It was by the activities of the Fianna Fáil Party and their tied Press two years ago that Irish people began to doubt whether Ireland itself had a future to offer to the people growing up here.

That was a disgusting campaign, initiated, guided and piloted by the leaders of Fianna Fáil for the purpose of getting office and for nothing else. They succeeded. They succeeded by speeches and by posters displayed around the country: "Support us; enable us to beat the crisis." Here in Dublin, decent women were told that merely by the expedient of putting a pencil to paper and voting for Fianna Fáil candidates they could vote their man a job. Two years ago in every part of this country our people were led to believe that by putting Fianna Fáil back into office unemployment would be solved, emigration would be stemmed and the problems facing this country would be overcome.

It is well to remember that, at the time when these gentlemen were fishing in troubled waters, when they were trying to make political capital out of Ireland's difficulties, they entered into certain pledges. It is well to review those pledges in this annual Budget. They guaranteed that they would solve unemployment, they guaranteed that they would stem emigration, they assured the people that our warnings—that food subsidies would be abolished—were so much nonsense. The Tánaiste went so far as to ask in a very plaintive manner how often it was necessary for himself and his colleagues to deny that, if they were elected, bread would cost more, butter would cost more and the food subsidies would be abolished. They were sent into office, not to sit and doodle but to carry out the pledges they made. It is our opportunity now, two years later, to examine this Budget, not in relation to what is in it but in relation to what is not in it, in relation to the policy which it is supposed to enshrine and the results of that policy over the last two years.

Let me take unemployment first. After two years of a Fianna Fáil Government, there are 32,000 fewer people at work in this land of ours. Does that figure bring even a feeling of uneasiness to Fianna Fáil Deputies? If I were a member of a Party that led me to say to my constituents in the last general election: "Support me and my colleagues and we will put your men folk to work," and if I found that my Government, after two years in office, succeeded in putting 32,000 more people out of work, I would hang my head in shame. The figures are there. In the year just concluded there were 10,000 fewer people at work than there were in 1957; 32,000 fewer people at work than there were in 1956; 50,000 fewer people at work than there were in 1955. There is the record of the Government that were sent into office pledged to put our people back to work.

We know, also, that emigration has continued to be a problem. We have not seen any evidence in the last two years of any serious plan or policy to stem emigration. One of the Minister's colleagues, not so long ago, jocosely offered £1,000,000 to anyone who would give the Government a policy to end emigration. That may be a very nice joke in an after-dinner speech but Fianna Fáil Ministers will not be permitted now, in office, to get away with a statement that emigration is insoluble because they pledged themselves to solve it and we are entitled in this annual debate to see some evidence of this problem being contained, if not solved. We know well that the 32,000 people who are not now at work in Ireland are at work somewhere else. They are working in England, Canada, Australia and elsewhere because, in the last two years, this Government, that pledged themselves to find jobs for them, have not succeeded in doing it. That has been the record of the Government in relation to unemployment and emigration.

People are supposed to be galvanised into enthusiasm for this fading Government because in this Budget 2/6d. is given to old age pensioners and an inevitable 6d. is taken off income tax. If the Minister thinks that that is any real solution to the social injustice caused by his Government in the last two years, he is very much mistaken.

Deputies should remember that this Budget enshrines in the financial structure of the country food taxation amounting to £9 millions. Under this Budget, by reason of what is not in it, the people will continue to pay 4d. more for the 21b. loaf, 6d. a 1b. more for butter, 2/8d. more for a stone of flour. These increases in food prices are enshrined in this Budget although two years ago the Government pledged itself, through its leader and its deputy leader, not to interfere with food subsidies. Despite these burdens imposed on the people, Fianna Fáil Deputies, Government spokesmen here, have felt that a 2/6d. increase in the old age pension is a considerable measure of social relief.

I should think that there are only two sections in our community that have not had the money they are paid adjusted in any way in respect of changes in the cost of living and those two sections are old age pensioners and Members of the Oireachtas. We know that the pound note today, in terms of real values in relation to 1939, is worth 6/8d. The pound today is worth one-third of the pre-war pound. Prior to the war, the old age pensioner in this country was in receipt of a pension of 10s. a week. To provide that pensioner with even the same purchasing power as he had pre-war, obviously, the pension should now be 30/- per week. Of course, the Minister does not give him that. Half a crown is given where five shillings should have been given and the person receiving it is told that the State could not afford to go any further.

I am sure there is a way in which the Minister can explain these matters but it is very little consolation to an old age pensioner to be told that the State cannot afford to pay him merely what he was being paid in 1939 at a time when the Government who say that propose to spend £6,000,000 on the purchase of jet aircraft. I am quite certain that the Minister will be able to explain that position to his own satisfaction and to the satisfaction of certain Deputies but I doubt very much if he will be able to explain it to the unfortunate man or woman who is told now that the State cannot afford to pay him or her, by means of an old age pension, merely what the old age pensioner was getting prior to the war.

Having said that this Government were elected to do certain things in relation to unemployment, emigration and the cost of living, I should add that in the last two years, since they were elected to office, everything has broken their way. They have not had to face the economic crisis that faced the country in 1956. They have not had to face it, by reason of the fact that the problem was broken by their predecessors. When the Minister took up office as Minister for Finance, he was advised that the worst was over, and he had the satisfaction of seeing, in March, 1957, that the trend in our balance of payments had been reversed, and that things were beginning to go the right way. I am sure he could not help being amused by the fact that his predecessor had to bear all the opprobrium, and the slings and arrows, in getting the problem solved which he found solved when he went into office. At the end of 1957, the Minister found by reason of the steps taken by his predecessor, that this country, for the first time for a number of years, had a surplus of £9 million in its balance of payments.

Last year, there was a favourable turn in the terms of trade, so far as this country was concerned. Import prices dropped and our trading problem became far easier and, therefore, in the past two years, there has not been any serious economic problem facing the Minister. The sun was shining, and all that was necessary was that somebody should go out and work. That has not been done. An opportunity has been let pass in the past two years. We have heard a lot of talk about plans; we have had the issue of different documents, plans for economic development and all the rest of it; we have had pep talks over weekends from the Minister for Lands and other Ministers, all designed to make us feel better.

After all the talk and plans have been brushed aside, what remains? —more unemployment, more emigration, less being produced from agriculture, gross national output down, the cost of living up, saving down, and the beginnings—it may be just vague at the moment—of a new problem in our balance of payments. That is a serious situation and it means that the Government have been trying to cod the people for the past 12 months. One could talk about these great plans for economic development for the next five years, but I wonder do Deputies who have spoken about this plan to invest £220 million in Irish enterprise, in capital development for the next five years realise that that is a reduction in the plans in operation when the inter-Party Government were in office. The Fianna Fáil Government were to invest £44 million a year at the time when they were trying to break the last inter-Party Government, but capital investment was then running at the rate of £44½ millions, so there is now a cutdown in the investment programme, and we are supposed to feel that something great is being done when the Minister and his colleagues have merely totted together the five years' commitment, instead of taking it year by year.

We, in the Fine Gael Party, have availed of the opportunity in this debate to review carefully and fully the policy of the Government for the past 12 months, and since they assumed office. As the Leader of the Opposition said this afternoon in relation to the reliefs in the Budget, the reliefs are three. First of all, there is no new taxation, which is a bit strange for a Fianna Fáil Budget; secondly, there is a reduction in income tax which may or may not have been inevitable; and thirdly, there is the half-loaf for the old age pensioners.

To the extent that there is some measure of relief given in the Budget, we do not intend to divide the House on the issue, but we do say very earnestly to the Minister that merely because some measure of relief is given, we in the Opposition will not cease to remind the Minister and his colleagues in the Government that they were not elected to the House merely to indulge in constitutional reforms or merely to call for or to dictate referenda. They were not sent here to indulge in new methods of electing different Parliaments. They were sent here to do a job of work, and that job is to provide employment here in Ireland for at least as many men and women as were working here two years ago. That job is to provide here the means whereby we can so manage our affairs that young Irish boys and girls will not have to continue to emigrate and seek employment elsewhere. Until the Government give more evidence that they are taking their task seriously, we shall continue to point out their mistakes.

Major de Valera

This Budget debate has, in a sense, been unusual in the attitude the principal Opposition Party have taken to it because, they cannot, apparently, quarrel with the provisions the Minister has made and they are very busy making excuses as to why they will not divide and have not divided so far. At the same time, they take the opportunity to use this measure, which apparently must have their approval, for backhanded digs at the Minister and the Government. I am afraid that is the actual position. Two things, therefore, are involved in this debate. The first is the question of the actual Budget, which is the proper subject for the debate, and then there is the question of the over-all background in regard to the Budget itself. As other speakers have said, the reliefs which the Minister has been able to give are not all that people would have wished to give, if the giving were in their power.

I should like to emphasise and repeat something the Tánaiste said here earlier this evening. He pointed out that, perhaps with an exception here and there in parliamentary history, by and large, no matter what Party or group Deputies belonged to, no matter what the constitution of government is, Ministers all wanted to do the best they could for the community and the people as a whole, when they are in office or in charge of government. A realisation of that point will help us here. It is not good for Parliament and it is not healthy for constructive work if one sees unworthy motives where there are no such motives whatever, and that seems to be the stand taken by certain people.

When it comes to framing Budgetary proposals for the year two things are uppermost in the minds of the Minister for Finance and the Government. Apart from the long-term interest of the country is the desire to do the best they can for the various interests in the community that are deserving of relief and for the community as a whole, if possible, in the order of priority that the situation rationally dictates. Secondly, there must be uppermost in their minds the consideration as to how the money is to be found to deal with those practical problems. The first desire is to give and the second desire is not to take unnecessarily. No Government wishes to increase the burden of taxation and, putting it at the lowest level, political considerations alone dictate that a Government should not increase the burden of taxation and that reliefs should be given where possible.

Those two desires are not always compatible and it is necessary that a balance be struck. When problems arise action has to be taken and it is much to the credit of successive Governments that appropriate action has been taken frequently. My quarrel with Coalitions is that they let their problems develop to such proportions that they could not cope with them, but that is another story.

We have heard a good deal of criticism about the small value of the reliefs given under this Budget. Nobody knows better than the people on this side of the House what that means. There have been attacks on particular things. They complain about the relief given to the cinemas; others have said that more should be given to the old age pensioners and, though it has not been said explicitly, there are reasons for putting those two things together. Anybody who tries to look at the problem fairly and impartially will realise that the reason reliefs are not bigger and that more cannot be done is simply the problem of financing them. Any person who has experience of government, like the last speaker who was a Minister, will see the reality of that argument.

When it comes to a question of priorities as to who should get how much, that is fair ground for argument, provided it is reasonable argument, because perhaps no two men's judgment will completely accord in a position such as that of Minister for Finance. Ultimately he must face up to the question whether he is in a position to give anything at all and, if he is, how much he can give and how it should be distributed. Undoubtedly, a reasonable case can be made for alternative distribution but I do not think I should waste the time of the House by going into such a hypothetical situation. It is enough to say that, on the advice he has received in the Department of Finance and after consultation with his colleagues, he has proposed a certain scheme which, to say the least of it, is popular enough to influence the main Opposition Party, at any rate, in its attitude towards it so far as the Division Lobby is concerned. That, of course, I realise does not necessarily mean that there would not be argument about distribution and I do not want to make too much of a point about that.

We have heard sneers at the amount given to old age pensioners. Even Deputy O'Higgins, who was a Minister in the previous Government, has taken that line. The criterion must be the amount that is available. If it is decided to double the amount to be granted to such people, that extra money must be found and there is only one way the State finds its money as we have all discovered now. The last Coalition Budget and other Budgets proved one thing, that after all the abstract and airy fairy economic and financial theories which have been very popular not only here but in other countries, if you want to spend you must get the money to spend. It does not grow on trees.

As regards the relief given to cinemas. I must confess that if it were merely a question of amusement I would be tempted to go with those people who say it is not a priority. If it is a question of deciding between the old age pensioner and a person who has a few shillings in his pocket and wants to go to the pictures one or two nights in the week, there is no Deputy who would not say: "We must give the old age pensioner priority." However, the matter is not as simple as that.

The picture houses, however they grew up, whether they are good or bad, represent an economic activity. They have a certain employment content and people are dependent for their livelihood on the cinemas. It also has a certain trade value. You cannot blind yourself to the fact that this is an industrial activity in which there is a certain employment content, however small. It may be argued that much money is exported for films but the only reason I advert to that is that you cannot measure a thing like that by measuring only the number of people employed, and so on. There are repercussions out beyond that into the economic environment which make it a serious thing if such an activity is to fail completely or particularly if it is to fail suddenly. I think that this Government, and other governments, too, can assert that it is cheap to charge a government with doing a thing like that merely for the sake of popularity. So far as the person who goes to the pictures is concerned, I do not think a thing like that gets a government any vote.

Every Government will be bombarded and I am sure Deputy Sweetman's Government was similarly bombarded with requests, claims, many of them with some substance in the claim, all of them clamouring for something from a Minister for Finance who is strictly circumscribed in what he has to give, and the little he has to give will not go around all the things he would like it to.

That is not only the background for the Budget but it is a background for, I would say, all Budgets. The same type of argument must be applied when people talk about service pensions or what was done in regard to retiral pensions in this Budget. Those who want to sneer can make arithmetic computations and suggest that these things are trivial. Again, you have the problem of getting more to make them more substantial.

I simply ask this question, which undoubtedly is arguable! Would it have been better for the Minister for Finance to plump for certain things and totally omit some of the things he has provided for or give a distribution such as he has given? You cannot escape this question. Taking the finances as a whole and taking the whole economic background of the country into the Budget, I do not think the Minister can go any further in the question of giving, that is, in the question of reliefs, than he has done.

What the Minister has done is indicated by the present situation. I do not think anybody looking at these figures could safely—I use the word "safely" from the point of view of the country—suggest a greater measure of spending or relief. That being granted, you have the open question: should he have distributed it as he did or plumped for one or two things?

If the Opposition want to argue that —it is a fair argument—then let them come a little up the road with me and oblige us by saying precisely what we should drop. If they want to pursue that line, I think it would be reasonable to suggest, at least in broad outline, alternative proposals. I suppose that in democratic parliament it has become the prerogative of the Opposition to make the criticism but to forbear from giving a constructive answer. Perhaps I cannot complain too much about that. Certainly, from this side of the House, I can make my point that that is the only choice. Looking at the reliefs the Minister has given I am not prepared to say: Throw any one of them overboard and add it on to any one of the rest of them.

There is something broader than that behind this Budget but I think this disposes of the sneers—I am afraid that that is all I can call them—coming from certain quarters about the size of the reliefs which are given. I know that that does not completely answer the people who say that more should be given because there is a broader ground coming from another quarter. There is a school of thought that we should have given benefits in certain regards, irrespective of the money available to the Minister for Finance. I am afraid I cannot subscribe to this policy. As I have already said, after all the experimentation and speculation in the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s and, I would say, the early 1950s, in national economics, the hard facts are such as to prove that a Government and a Minister for Finance must arrange that a country lives within its resources.

Apart from these details, there is another aspect of this Budget which I think is important. Again I should like to be as fair and as objective as one can be in assessing the situation. I want to try to avoid a temptation which Deputy O'Higgins has put in my way. I want to try to avoid apportioning things meticulously, as he, rather naïvely, tried to do. I was surprised at a man of his intelligence trying to play the old trick of "We are completely white. We did everything. You are completely black. You have never done anything." Life is not like that.

The argument might be more convincing if life were accepted as life is. The fact is, therefore, that some time ago you definitely had a crisis. You had a crisis in 1955-56 when there was a very difficult situation here. Certain action was taken. It is an old story now. I do not think recriminations will help. One important point, as a fact, that has to be adverted to is that following that crisis, and the measures taken to deal with it, there was a rather serious depression here. To my knowledge, there was a serious business depression in the city of Dublin and there were the problems that accompany depression. I think Deputy O'Higgins would have helped very much in a constructive argument if, in trying to make capital out of unemployment figures as they are at any particular time, it were realised that at that time the actual unemployment figures, I think, were higher than they are now.

The point I want to make is that there was a contraction, a depression, which brought in its train, inevitably, a certain amount of unemployment and which also brought in, of course, a certain amount of emigration. It is only fair that I should say I completely appreciate the external factors that were operating in that situation, but that was a fact. The external situation was a real fact and so also were the things I mentioned real facts. The result was a very damaging effect on what the businessman or the economist calls "confidence". It had an extremely damaging effect on public confidence. I feel that the expression "public morale" is better. That unfortunate effect was very much aggravated by the fact that a coalition Government were in office. I give full credit to that Government, particularly to its Minister for Finance, Deputy Sweetman, but, as probably Deputy O'Higgins knows better than I do, there are fundamental difficulties when an unhomogeneous group is trying to cope with a crisis like that.

However it may be, at large, in business circles, amongst the farmers, in the country as a whole, there was an atmosphere of depression and a lack of confidence.

Who spread that?

Major de Valera

We certainly did not.

Bíodh ciall agat.

Major de Valera

We certainly did not and if Deputy O'Higgins wants to go into the details of the fact, I am prepared to recite them.

Every morning in the Irish Press, there was some story about lack of confidence.

Major de Valera

That is not true.

Indeed, it is.

Major de Valera

On the other hand, there were efforts made to try to build confidence.

There were not.

Major de Valera

I shall give the evidence.

That paper should be ashamed of itself.

Major de Valera

The fact is that the first Coalition broke up internally in a crisis and left damage after it that we had to mend, and the second Coalition, after a period of disastrous inactivity, broke up on their own side of the House. They had completely lost the confidence of the country and they went to the country unnecessarily. They had not lost their majority in this House. The Taoiseach panicked and took the Government to the country, even though he had a majority in the House. Such was the confidence in the country, but Deputy O'Higgins knows that. I should like to deal with this on a perfectly cool basis.

Kiss and be friends.

Major de Valera

It would be a long time before I would kiss Deputy O'Higgins, at least politically. There is no need for Deputy O'Higgins to get hot under the collar about this. I have made my comments on some of the things he said, and, as I said before, frankly I think his speech was a little naïve for a man of his intelligence. However, to get back to this, that question of confidence was shown to be an extraordinarily real thing in the economic situation. Personally, I must confess I felt it to be a rather extraordinary thing. I did not believe all that was written about public confidence until I saw the thing in operation in the circumstances of the time. There has been a slow recovery, a relatively slow recovery, and we have problems today of emigration, of unemployment, of business and of business expansion and investment, and related to those is this problem of confidence.

There is still difficulty in restoring that confidence or morale—it is the same idea. Where you get enthusiastic cooperation and enterprise you get an economy flourishing but, as I have said, recovery has been slow. There are still figures there which are still very depressing and very perturbing. Nobody will say that more quickly than we will. The figures in that green document, particularly the figures in regard to country employment as against industrial employment, are perturbing and, instead of our wasting our time here, we should agree as to the plan and as to what we could work to do to solve the problem that lies behind these figures. If we did that, we would be doing something really constructive.

Why I underline the question of confidence is that one of the important things in the Budget—you may say it is only a token and you may come back with the argument that what is being done is small—is the reassuring indication, a morale restoring feature, if nothing more, in it. It is reassuring to see that the Minister for Finance can say we have progressed since 1955 to an extent that we can still provide for what has to be provided for, and, at the same time, provide for development under the plan outlined in the White Paper. It is encouraging when the Minister can say we are now at a stage when we can give some encouragement, that benefits will be distributed and that we can hope for better conditions, or at least work for improvements, and that the Government consider the situation sufficiently advanced to enable that to be done. That, in itself, is an important aspect of the Budget and though people may say that the sixpence reduction in income tax may not mean an awful lot on present salary rates, it does, on the other hand, indicate a movement in the right direction, and must not fail to restore some measure of optimism in the economic situation which we have to face.

Again, I shall break here to mention a few small points that struck me during the course of arguments from various speakers. Naturally, we all tend to look at it from the point of view of people in whom we are interested, or from the point of view of a particular class. I suppose it is not an unnatural thing for certain Deputies, particularly from country areas, to mention our Civil Service and the cost of our administration. In so far as that is an administrative matter itself, I should not be in order in going into it here, but we must remember that the cost of the Civil Service—and it is an efficient Civil Service—is to a large degree a question of the cost of the personnel involved and that, as things go now, the civil servant and, in fact, any so-called white collar worker in the city of Dublin or any other Irish town, is by no means the most favoured member of the community. In fact, if I were talking about various ways various people would divide up what the Minister for Finance has to give in regard to the question of the clerical worker, whether he is in the direct employment of the State in the Civil Service in the ordinary grades, or whether it is a clerical worker in another concern, it must be admitted that in many ways he has borne the burden of the deterioration in money values, more perhaps than other sections of the community. Above and below him in the conventional scale of places and things, you will find people have done better.

People in that category—and I would put certain professional people there; I would not confine it to class but would include certain business people and traders who are not in the flourishing class, certain professional people and so forth and so on—more than any other class of the community have been severely hit by the deterioration in money values. After all, in the manual and craft classes, there have been, I think, adjustments more in line with the deterioration in the standard and also in the higher grades above them—the bigger business executives and such people. I need not particularise but, in the earning class that are above the class I am mentioning, increased activity and similar things have enabled them to be compensated, but the man on the fixed wage, the civil servant in the lower grades, has been very severely hit by the deterioration in money values and he is faced with keeping up a standard, and so forth, that other sections of the community are not faced with. I do not think we should lose sight of that.

Although I should be completely in favour of securing the maximum efficiency in the Civil Service, as elsewhere, and although I must confess I am perturbed at the size of the public administration bill as compared with the total resources of the community, I still must say one would have to hesitate before dealing with the personnel side of that problem. You have all the incidental problems that come in cases like that—problems, such as I mentioned earlier in another connection— arising here, as well as the fact that the people in these categories are relatively much worse off. I am referring to civil servants, teachers, gardaí, army officers and certain professional men. Relatively speaking, I would say they are worse off compared with other elements of the community than when the pound was at a higher value. For that reason, I think we should be rather careful in just talking about the cost of administration so facilely.

I should like to repeat, in case I am charged with extravagance or anything else, that I do agree with those who find the actual over-all figure for State expenditure and administration rather disturbing, but I also know that successive Parties and Governments— and Parties when they were out of office and later became Governments— have talked a lot about this problem, but it is rather singular that when they were in office, one did not hear so much about it. I am certain that that was not just through negligence, that the change in attitude or the restraint that comes with responsibility came; not through lack of will but through the cogency of the information available.

I have mentioned that at length because—one hears certain claims of interested parties put forward during debate and I have no objection to that—I want to say that in this battle, if you like to put it that way, for what the Minister for Finance has to give, there is a large and valuable section of our community, giving a good deal of return to the community in the administrative sense anyway, who must not be forgotten. I am particularly glad in this connection that the Minister was able to give some relief in income tax, even though the amount in regard to any of the people I have mentioned will be found on calculation to be perhaps relatively smaller than the increase given to, say, pensioners.

With regard to the background of the whole position, the economic survey giving those statistics circulated before the Budget, is, as I said, in some respects disturbing. I know that every Deputy, and perhaps people outside who are interested, will have fastened on to the fact that in spite of all that Parties have said and all that Governments have tried to do, in spite of the locally successful experiments of both Government enterprises and private enterprise, we find that the rural population—the number of people employed in agriculture—has gone down and that the only place that one can find an increase in employment is in industrial employment.

Let us take that fact as it is. We have a decrease in constructional employment; we have a decrease in agricultural employment; and we have an increase—which by no means compensates for the other two—in industrial employment. It is a pattern. No matter what anybody says, no Government will be able to solve that overnight. No Government have a hope of coping with the problem at all, unless what these facts really mean is grasped; and it appears to me that what they mean is that we have to live as a community on our agriculture. There is no doubt about that. In order to live as a community and maintain a certain minimum standard of living, there are prerequisites. Agricultural production, and particularly production for export, must be got to and maintained at a certain level. By that production, we must earn the wherewithal to purchase the materials which we require from abroad to maintain that standard of living.

What I shall say now may seem trite, but I think it will be coercive. That being the situation, and especially as conditions in peacetime become more competitive, our farmers must be encouraged to produce for those purposes. The primary aim should be to export and, secondly, to supply as much as possible at home to avoid unnecessary payments outside; in other words, as a factor in trying to keep the balance of payments right. That is what has been meant by that much-abused word "self-sufficiency". I should prefer to call it "self-reliance." The reason the self-sufficiency target must be there after you have the export target is that as long as you can produce all you consume here at home, you are conserving the money you have earned for the import of things you cannot produce at home. In principle, the thing is simple. I grant that, in practice, you have complications, but, by and large, it means that as the world recedes from the last war and becomes more competitive, our farmers have not only to produce but they have to produce economically.

The problem of economic production invariably brings with it the problem of mechanisation and all these other factors which may result in cutting down direct employment in terms of agricultural labour per acre. Deputies who know the rural areas rather better than I do can tell me if I am wrong in that. I think I am right. Not only have you got that problem in regard to agricultural labour, but you have also the problem of the standard of living for the agricultural labourer. The Fianna Fáil Party, from its inception and ever since, set itself the target of raising the standard of living of the rural community, particularly that of the small farmer and the agricultural labourer and to some extent that has been achieved. The raising of the standard was helped by the provision of housing and so forth. I need not go into the details. All this brought with it the problem of the farmer employing the agricultural labour, his wages and the return the labourer could get.

All these tendencies have been such as to cut down the number working on the land. Over and above that there is the great difficulty that you have in nearby England an industrialised-urbanised community with a certain amount of appeal. The emigration from the rural areas has been by no means compulsory in all respects. It has been brought about by a combination of factors. It has been brought about by the standard of living the emigrant was seeking, his status in life, and the attraction of an urbanised economy so near. I remember a time some years ago—it is not so long ago at all—when the problem was to get agricultural labour. The work was there. The opportunities for employment were there but the farmers could not get the labourers. Now, one cannot complain if a man of his own choice wants to be something other than he is. Neither can one complain if a person seeks more amenities or a higher standard of living.

It seems to me, as a city man, that the chances of farms absorbing more labourers directly into work are too remote to offer a solution to our problem. The primary object of the farmer is to produce economically. He must produce economically if he is to sell in the outside market. He must produce economically at home if only because of the outcry there will be if he fails to do so. As a city man, I admit the farmer is our first citizen. I doubt if we will correct the situation by simply telling the farmer to produce more and, in order to produce more, to employ more labour on his land. The farmer has his own problem and there must be another approach to this. As I see it, there is only one way in which the situation can be met and that is by the establishment of ancillary industries, subsidiary and complementary activities to production on the land. Where possible we must have in our towns industries related to agriculture, industries which will provide the employment not so readily available on the land now as it was before.

How will that be done? We have learned a number of lessons during the years. Perhaps the Labour Party who co-operated enthusiastically with Fianna Fáil in the early days will agree that there are lessons to be learned. One of the lessons we have learned is that it is easy enough to initiate industries of a certain kind but that it becomes almost impossible to expand them and very difficult to make them completely economic. As developments ensue, it may be difficult to expand ancillary or subsidiary industries to the land to the extent where the people living on them will get the standard of living enjoyed by other sections of the community. There are problems, too, of the viability of such industries. A great deal has been learned in regard to all these matters.

Without going off at a tangent into the Vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce, I want to point out now that this is too serious a matter to make it one of Party capital. We are facing a situation in which the normal tendency in relation to numbers employed on the land is in the wrong direction. That tendency is aggravated by our proximity to a highly urbanised and industrialised country.

There is another problem to which the Deputy did not refer. The difficulty with regard to a great number of agricultural workers is the fact that there is no guarantee of continuity of employment.

Major de Valera

I will grant the Deputy that.

That is what sends them into the towns.

Major de Valera

Deputy Corish is quite right. All these things are factors in the situation. There is no use in my getting a stick and beating the Coalition Government for not working a miracle. There is no use Deputy Corish trying to get a stick to beat this Government. If Deputy Corish and I have reached the stage—I hope all others have reached it too—of appreciating what the real problem is we shall be much nearer to finding a remedy. Would Deputy Corish agree that there is yet another factor? I talked about the standard of living. There is the question of social amenities. Perhaps there is a bit of tradition there, but there is also a problem.

There is something else—the need for money. The farmer wants to be put in the position in which he can pay the farm labourer.

Major de Valera

Exactly. The Deputy has put his finger on the key to the whole thing perhaps. The Deputy is one of our first citizens. Now, the farmer has to pay his labourers.

And he wants to be in a position to pay them well.

Major de Valera

Therefore the farmer, his worker, and the community are all tied together and it is a question of sorting things out and trying to get a balance. There is the question of a money return to the farmer. There is the question of a money return and a certain standard for the worker. I think everyone will agree that the trend to-day is in the wrong direction. What is to be done to correct it? Some degree of correction will come if the economy is booming and enthusiastically buoyant. In other words, one must get the various elements—the farmer, his worker, and the community—all pulling together in a co-ordinated economic activity. That requires a high degree of confidence and goodwill. But you will get some result from that.

Over and above that, there is the problem of establishing the subsidiary activities which will employ labour. The farmer cannot act as a social service. That is what those who talk about farmers not employing sufficient workers are presuming the farmer to be. We cannot ask the farmer to be a social service. He has got his first and principal job. We are living on the backs of the farmers. So long as our economy depends upon our agricultural exports so long will we continue to live on the backs of our farmers. We might as well admit that now.

It is a grand thing to hear the truth.

It is seldom we do.

It is a grand thing even though it is a bit late in the day.

Major de Valera

Now the Government cannot solve the problem overnight. How then is it to be solved? The answer is in the provision of additional and subsidiary activities. There have been sneers at the White Paper, but that White Paper is a most significant document. I wonder if we realise the useful work that has been done in this preparatory survey? For nearly 30 years we have been, to some extent, experimenting. We have worked along a general line which is sound, trying to build up our own economy towards self-sufficiency within reason—if you like—but in that time the experience has been accumulating. The White Paper was preceded by a Department of Finance and Governmental document which I think is one of the most significant documents ever produced in the history of this State. In the Economic Survey, closely followed by the White Paper, we have a reasoned directive, not a blueprint, from which we can hope to get results. I am being a little bit lengthy——

You went off on a tangent. I thought the Deputy was going to develop his argument and say what happens in the interim.

For goodness sake, let us not have any more tangents.

I am sorry for interrupting the Deputy.

Major de Valera

Here is the net issue. We cannot solve the problem of rural employment all at once; the farmer cannot solve it for us; we cannot solve it as a social service because the money is not there. We cannot subsidise the people to live on the land although we might like to do it and it might be the ideal thing to do. It is not economic and it is not life. We must therefore provide some alternative and I had gone off at a tangent to indicate the lines on which one could come to an acceptable alternative. That brings me to the point that is significant in the statistics and it is that only in industrial employment have we been able to absorb numbers in compensation for the loss elsewhere. I feel it is only on that general line that we can compensate and I fear it is our only hope for the future. We should try to develop along those lines. The Minister's Budget is an indication of confidence in the first instance. There is an incentive in it which I think will bear fruit and we must proceed further on that line.

Before I conclude, I want to refer to one other figure in the White Paper, the fall in constructional employment. There is a very valuable lesson for us to learn there—and again this applies to everybody. We had a flourishing drive for housing; in fact we strained our financial resources to do it. I am not questioning the social value of it, but it was an economic strain to carry out the housing programme that was put through since 1930. That activity in the post-war years involved not only the general business activity that centred around housing suppliers and all that but it had a direct labour content. That drive inevitably, of its own inertia, would have slackened off and created a problem, apart altogether from the financial situation of the past few years, the external problem and the necessity to find money for development at home. That meant this particular expansionist phase in building had to pass and we are left with the problem of those who were employed in that industry.

There is a lesson in that. It is that in the future we must plan on a long-term basis and if we are absorbing people into economic activity and employment we must reckon with the time when that activity will pass. Such a problem cannot be dealt with on the basis of: "Here is a scheme. We will do it and wait until it ends to think of what we can do next." It means that we must plan for the future. That is why I come back to what the Tánaiste spoke about today when he mentioned these documents. However, this is the Budget debate and I do not want to delay the House unnecessarily and indeed I was only tempted to speak at all by what I considered Deputy O'Higgins's rather unbalanced remarks at the outset of his speech.

The Deputy did not hear the Tánaiste's completely unbalanced remarks at the outset of his speech.

Major de Valera

I heard a few of the Deputy's remarks and I do not want to prolong this——

I shall take the Deputy on, if he likes. Let him prolong it, if he likes.

Major de Valera

Let the Deputy not tempt me.

I am ready for the Deputy.

Major de Valera

I think it is a tribute to the ability and capacity of the Minister that in regard to this Budget the Opposition cannot find a concrete case on which to fight.

The Deputy has that printed and he had to say it here.

Major de Valera

I do not think it is any discredit to the Deputy but it is certainly a pointer to the value of what the Minister has done. As I see it, in the area I know the Minister has inspired a renewed confidence and has given an upthrust to a rising optimism which is essential for success.

This Budget is important and I feel it is ungenerous and bad in the long run, to take up the attitude which some—not all—speakers on the opposite side have taken up, that of the sneer that what he has given is not worth the taking. I think that is unworthy. Rather should it be that along the lines that have been indicated we will look forward to even more optimistic Budgets in the future. A lot depends, as we know, not only on circumstances at home but also on circumstances abroad, and I have tried to be fair to Deputy Sweetman in that respect. We must live in the present. We must remember that this is the time for everybody, particularly for those who have the chance of applying these reliefs, to try to apply them for the benefit of the community as a whole with a view to expanding our economy.

I want to refer to Deputy de Valera's remarks about plans for agriculture, because, coming from an agricultural community, I feel I should be able to offer some constructive criticism and suggest a few ideas as to how to overcome the economic problems confronting that community. Indeed, I have done so on several occasions but I feel that very little attention is paid to my recommendations. Even today I asked some questions in regard to the most important industry we have, the dairying industry. I felt obliged to put down those questions, having spoken at great length on that industry last year when I moved a motion seeking an increase in the price of milk. I saw at that time what was happening and I went so far as to point out to the Minister for Agriculture, and to the Government, the downward trend in dairy farming.

This is a matter for the Estimate and not for the Financial Resolution.

I am only referring to it in passing.

Details of agricultural production should be reserved for the Estimate.

Deputy de Valera spoke at length on the economic problems of agriculture.

He spoke generally but he did not go into the details of any particular facet of the industry.

I want to make some recommendations——

The recommendations on those points could be relevantly made on the Estimate. I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but these are matters for the Estimate and should be reserved until the Estimate comes along.

In regard to the de-population of rural Ireland the question posed is:— what is the cause of it, what brought it about? In my constituency the population in the past twenty-five years has decreased by 33? per cent. and nothing practical has been done in the area to develop either agriculture or industry. The main portion of the speeches today hinged on agriculture and industry. I put down a question about the development of industry under the Undeveloped Areas Act two years ago and the reply I got at the time was that in Donegal there were nine industries set up at a cost of £75,300; in Leitrim there were two at a cost of £24,000; in Mayo there were eight at a cost of £80,293; in Kerry there were eight at a cost of £388,155; in Clare there were three at a cost of £24,650; in Sligo there were seven at a cost of £31,600; in Galway there were ten at a cost of £497,600; in Roscommon there were two at a cost of £6,500 and in the part of Cork which I represent and which is an undeveloped area, and is classified as such, there was none. Not one penny.

Would the Deputy have the figures for Waterford?

It is not an undeveloped area.

They are all rich people down there. That is wonderful; I must tell my people that when I go back to them.

Why should a thing like that happen? Why should a board, which is set up for the specific purpose of looking after the undeveloped areas, not do its job in a just and fair way?

The decisions of the board will arise on the Estimate and not on the Financial Resolution.

I shall quote from a very impartial man on the very same subject. This is a small pamphlet entitled The Scandal of West Cork written by a Dublin man who is now living in West Cork. The first paragraph in this booklet is——

The writer has lived in West Cork for over twenty years, but is not a West Cork man and can claim, therefore, to approach this subject with some detachment and impartiality.

This article is an exposure of the gross injustice by neglect which has been meted out to the West Cork District by our native Governments——

He is not blaming one Government above the others. He is blaming all of them.

Readers can judge themselves whether this injustice is due to neglect only or whether there has been also criminal by-passing and deliberate discrimination by those charged by their office to act in the public interest and for the common good.

That is a very serious position.

Who is the writer?

Mr. Michael R. Boland, solicitor. He is a Dublin man and this is what he says of West Cork:

"West Cork is really a wonderful place. There is no need to waste space on eulogy or flattery, but all other Corkmen whether from North, West, or the City will agree that their average brother from the West is at least equal in physique, in intelligence and in capacity for work with any other Irishman and superior to a lot of them.

The Deputy will have to relate all this to the Financial Resolution before the House.

If we want expansion in agriculture and in industry it must be attacked at the source. West Cork gave a lead to the country when good men were wanted. Anybody who read Tom Barry's book will realise that while the West Cork Brigade were fighting morning, noon and night against British Forces there were many other counties in Ireland where not a single shot was fired. Today we have the position that that very part of Ireland, which gave so much for the freedom of this country and for the setting up of this very Parliament, got nothing all down the years in return.

The people of West Cork in every generation gave more than their share. I put it to the Minister and to the House that Ireland owes a lot to West Cork, and I wonder when it will repay that big debt. I was at a function last Sunday week and that is why I am speaking so strongly on this subject. I was asked to do so on behalf of the towns of Bantry, Dunmanway, Skibbereen, Clonakilty, Roscarbery and Castletownbere.

These are all local matters, which should be raised on the Estimate. They are out of order on the Financial Resolution.

The function I attended was in connection with the setting up of an Industrial Development Association in West Cork. We are asked to be constructive in our approach to this, and I think that was a very constructive thing to do. When they saw that the area had been sadly neglected they established an Industrial Development Association for the whole area. I sincerely hope when they make their recommendations and their demands that they will be fairly and justly considered. The area has been neglected for long enough. If plans, White Papers and grey papers serve any purpose we certainly have plenty of them. Plans alone will not solve the problem with which we are faced.

Do it yourself.

A board was set up to do that job. I do not claim to have the knowledge necessary for industrial development. The board was to develop the undeveloped areas, but it has not fulfilled its obligations, as far as we are concerned. A committee of this House should be set up, of Deputies representing the undeveloped areas, to have some say in the administration of that board.

The Deputy, according to himself, is discussing administration. He ought to come to the taxation side of Government policy.

It was interesting to listen to the Tánaiste say that the Budget was the beginning of the upward trend in the development of the country. One would have thought it was yesterday the State was founded. Unfortunately, there is a very big legacy of debt which we are to leave to future generations to pay off. I wonder what we have to show for all that debt we have incurred. Deputy V. de Valera said, and rightly so, that this country is living on the backs of the farmers. Those are his very words; how true they are! However, the backs of the farmers are bending heavily under the load imposed upon them down the years. They are endeavouring by every means in their power to shake off that burden and, from my observation in my territory, the only way they find is the emigrant ship. They are throwing in the sponge, abandoning their small farms, closing the doors and taking to the emigrant ship.

When we talk of expansion in agriculture, we must be realistic about it. Instead of reducing the price of milk, pigs, poultry and eggs, which are actually the mainstay of the small holding, those prices should be increased considerably, so as to encourage the smallholders to stay in their little holdings. One matter which concerns those smallholders—and I had experience of it no later than last week—is the condition of the roads into their holdings.

Surely that does not arise on the Budget.

It is one of the reasons, Sir, why many farmers are forced to leave these holdings and emigrate.

That is purely administration. The Deputy will find another opportunity, but this is not the time.

The question of maintaining employment in agriculture was raised by Deputy de Valera. A very serious problem arises every summer, when there is not enough labour to go round; the farmers and the county councils are in competition with one another for the little available labour.

I dislike interrupting the Deputy, but surely he sees that that is administration. What we are considering is Government policy in respect of taxation and general financial policy. Competition between farmers and county councils in respect of available labour in any particular area is surely a matter of administration.

I am developing a point, where I want to maintain labour all the year round. Is there any objection to doing that?

I do not see how that can arise on this Resolution. What we are concerned with is the collection of the money to keep the services going and how the Government proposes to collect the money. That is the main issue.

Are we not concerned with trying to keep men employed all the year round?

If the Deputy is making that case, I shall not stop him. The Deputy has been referring to two other sets of problems.

In the winter time the men are laid off, both by the farmer and by the county council, with the result that there is great unemployment. The proposal I want to put to the Minister now is that money should be made available to subsidise the employment of those men in the winter time, in the development of private forestry. In every holding in the country, there is waste land which could be put to very profitable use, but the farmers cannot get the labour or cannot afford to pay the high wages during the winter time. The agricultural grant is paid, but to get it a farmer should employ a man for the whole year. It would be far better if that grant were given for employing a man in the winter time, for the six months from October to March, when employment is so scarce. Those are the months in which every Government is faced with a big register of unemployed. Unemployment in rural Ireland could be solved if all those men were employed in forestry and in the improvement of the by-roads into the farmer's holdings, which are in such a shocking state.

I cannot allow the Deputy to proceed along that line. I have given him every opportunity to come to the Government's taxation and financial policy, to say whether it is justified or not, whether it is the right type of taxation or not and whether it tends to increase production or not.

The Budget has been described by many speakers as a vote-catching Budget. I would not describe it as such and I do not see any occasion for so describing it. The old age pensioner who is to get 2/6d. in August will not throw his hat in the air and be swayed over to vote one way or another as a result of that half-crown. The 6d. will not buy over any intelligent income tax payer. People will use their judgment, as they have always done, without any reference to the half-crown or the 6d. The concessions given in the Budget were welcome. They were small, but it is a step in the right direction that any concession at all was given. However, they will not sway the voters one way or the other.

The Minister for Lands said, in the course of this debate:—

At the moment there are signs of a growth in industrial enterprise. We know that 38 enterprises started during 1958 with a capital of £4,000,000. We know that 12 factories are in the course of construction with the capital of £2,100,000. We know that another 12 undertakings will start construction with the capital of £2,000,000; and these are exclusive of the big projects, like Irish Steel, the oil refinery and the Cork Dockyard. Recently there were 14 industrial propositions accepted by the Industrial Development Authority. They are still examining 69.

Would the Deputy give the column and volume, please?

Column 890 of the Dáil Debates, Wednesday, 22nd April. That is a very elaborate programme of industrial expansion and development. On reading the Sunday Press of last Sunday——

Surely the Deputy does not read the Sunday Press?

I read it to get every side of the story. I read that a town now has nine factories. A new factory for the processing of seaweed into meal for livestock has been launched in Westport. This brings to nine the number of factories new in operation in the town. I represent an area 100 miles long by 90 miles wide. In the past 30 years, every industry in that vast area, without exception, has died. Last year, there was the sorry spectacle of the last of them leaving the town of Skibbereen. A knitting industry which employed over 20 girls closed down and transferred its business to Mullingar. I could never get a real explanation of why it should have happened. It was the last industry in that big territory which I have the honour to represent.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce said that, so far in this debate, he had got no new ideas or constructive criticism. Two years ago exactly, a deputation came from Skibbereen asking for the establishment of a seaweed factory there. They were refused. The industry is now established in another town where there are eight industries. The whole matter needs thorough investigation. Who will do that, I do not know.

Tourism could be a very important industry. I believe in tourism. Next to agriculture, it could be one of the best for the area along the seaboard from Clonakilty to Castletownberehaven, where there are beautiful scenery, beautiful roads, good accommodation and extra hospitality. Even in that connection the area has not got its just share of publicity.

The Deputy does not seem to be capable of discriminating between administration and the collection of taxes.

According to the Programme for Economic Expansion issued by the Government, grants will be available for the development of tourist resorts, subject to two conditions, one of which is that a substantial local contribution will be forthcoming either from a local development group or from the local authority concerned. I have seen initiative and anxiety displayed by local development groups and the local authority and repeated requests for grants, backed by local contributions, for the development of two tourist resorts.

Will the Deputy please remember that that is administration on the part of some Department?

That does not arise on a Budget which is brought in to enable the Minister to collect sufficient money to carry on services and to show how that taxation is apportioned and assessed.

We leave industry and come back again to agriculture.

We should never have left it.

It is no harm to say something about agriculture in this debate because there are only a few lines in the Financial Statement about it.

What does the Deputy know about agriculture?

I know more than the Minister knows about it. The Minister made a right mess of it for 16 or 18 years.

In the past year, the income of the agricultural community has fallen drastically. I understand that it has fallen to the extent of £9,000,000. That will have a very serious effect on the whole economy. It means that farmers will have less money to invest. The past year was the most difficult year ever experienced by farmers. As a result of last year's bad harvest, discase amongst sheep and cattle is so prevalent that losses are colossal. Veterinary surgeons are working night and day. We cannot blame the Minister for Finance for the bad weather but the fact of the matter is that the income of farmers over the year has gone down considerably, which will have serious effects on the economy. The income from milk will be down by 30 per cent. this year. Sheep are dying by the thousand from fluke and disease in dairy cattle is very prevalent. There is a serious state of affairs in rural Ireland today. There is nothing but despondency and gloom. If there was ever a time in the history of this country when small farmers wanted some incentive, some help, it is certainly the present time.

I put down that question to-day asking for an increase in the price of milk. However, I did not get it and it is a sad state of affairs surely that the dairy farmer should reduce his output to the extent we heard in the reply to that question to-day. It will have a serious effect on the cattle industry also, because the numbers of cows will be reduced and we will have fewer cattle for export and less money for the purchase of our industrial needs. It is very serious indeed, and it is a matter the Government should consider before it is too late. They should give some incentive to the dairy farmers. If the present decline continues, I do not know what is to save the country, because the cattle industry and agriculture generally have saved it in the past.

The Local Authorities (Works) Act was also very helpful in its time, and a lot of good work on the drainage of land was done under that Act. I know no provision is made in the Estimate for it, but I really think some special grants should be given for the cleaning of rivers where they are causing serious damage. I myself have had the experience of going to the Board of Works —and they sent me to the Department of Agriculture, and they sent me to the Special Employments Scheme Office, and they sent me to the Rural Improvement Schemes Office—trying to get a small job done in the cleaning of a river which was flooding about 1,000 acres of good land. Some scheme should be devised for that kind of work. It would be very beneficial and would give valuable employment in rural Ireland and the reward would be reaped in the years to come.

There are some aspects of this Budget to which I want to refer, in addition to what I said briefly on the day when it was introduced. Since then, it has been fully discussed in the House and Deputies have taken various views of the proposals contained in it. The impression has been left on me, as I am sure it has been left on others, by speakers from the Government benches, that every member of the Fianna Fáil Party appears to be immensely satisfied with the Budget, that it is a splendid Budget. One member was so carried away with excitement and exuberance that he said in some parts of the city things were 50 times better than they were a couple of years ago. Now that the Deputy has had an opportunity since to make a simple calculation on the ball-frame, he should realise that "50 times better" needs some calculation and achieving.

If it is intended to cheer up the followers of the Fianna Fáil Party, I do not mind so long as we have a realistic value as well as a political value. In fact, the really dangerous aspect of this Budget, and the really dangerous philosophy that we are developing in the community, is that this Budget makes a substantial contribution to the fundamental problems which are, in fact, really left untouched, so far as the Budget is concerned. These problems are so lightly dealt with that some of them were dealt with in just a few lines in the Budget speech, as if that was all they merited, but the community has been told of what has been done for prizefighting—what a noble objective! —and what has been done for greyhound racing, but there is no serious attempt in the Budget, no serious attempt in the Budget speech of the Minister, to indicate in what way it will make a solid and substantial contribution to dealing with the basic problems which confront the country today.

It is relatively unimportant on which side of the House we sit at the moment, compared with the urgent necessity for dealing with these basic problems, because nobody can sit here surveying the economic scene without feeling seriously disturbed by the fact that three problems stand out uppermost and that all our efforts, after nearly 40 years of national freedom, have not enabled us to make a perceptible contribution to the solution of these problems. In fact, some of them have been with us so long now that their persistence by itself alone has made them much graver problems. Many of them expressed as a percentage of the same problems 20 years ago are more serious to-day.

We seem to think—I think it is a fatal mistake and I say it, not in criticism of any Party, but in criticism of Parliament and the nation as a whole—that the smallest little things we do in this country really merit worldwide admiration and that, in fact, nobody else is doing the things we are doing. We have failed utterly to measure these small and puny achievements by the yardstick of the national demand and the urgency of the demand in attempting a solution of these problems.

My complaint about the Budget is that while it does certain things in a small way, these embroidery gifts, these embroidery concessions, make no serious contribution to our main problems. What are our main problems? As I reckon them, there is the problem of employment, the problem of unemployment, the problem of emigration and the problem of underemployment, and its associated evil, a low standard of national productivity.

The Budget makes no serious contribution to the solution of these problems. Let us see what last year's Budget or even this year's Budget has done. Let us see in what way, in the light of the facts as we know them to-day, this Budget is likely to apply a corrective in relation to these problems. We have, at present, approximately 70,000 able-bodied men and women registered as unemployed at the employment exchanges. There must be many other unemployed people who are not even registered and when you add to that number, the unemployed people who have wives and children and aged parents to maintain, a colossal picture of unemployment unfolds itself in a small country with less than 3,000,000 citizens.

No other country in Europe is carrying to-day the serious unemployment problem in relation to its population that we are carrying here. Approximately 10 per cent. of our insured population are registered as unemployed. Nobody who is concerned for the economic wellbeing of the nation, aside from the politics of debate here, can pretend to believe that a situation of that kind is a healthy situation, or one that holds out any early prospect of the country being brought within measurable distance of the standard of prosperity which obtains elsewhere. We have 70,000 unemployed, independent altogether of the dependents whom they must maintain; a ten per cent unemployment level, so far as the insured population is concerned. That is a grievous situation. It is a challenge to the Government, a challenge to every Party in the House and a challenge to our national intelligence as well.

That is a serious situation, but when one looks at Fianna Fáil election literature and interprets the policy of the party through that literature, one would naturally expect that the Fianna Fáil Party, which had such a facile remedy for unemployment would, after more than two years in office, give some evidence of having a solution to the problem. The other day I came across an election leaflet which was issued in Cork city during the last election. The pamphlet was headed: "Fianna Fáil plans the end of emigration," and it went on in a sub-heading to say that quick action was needed to avert national disaster. Then the economic wizard who wrote the pamphlet went on to say:

The present spate of emigration is the most serious problem now facing the nation. The recent Census Report has shown that the situation must be righted quickly if disaster is to be avoided.

Does anybody believe it has been righted quickly? Does anybody believe we have not still a spate of emigration? We have, of course, but the pamphlet then had this say about the inter-Party Government:

In contrast to the inaction of the present Coalition Fianna Fáil have been preparing plans for the day when the Party will again take up the reins of government.

That pamphlet was issued more than two years ago and at that time, according to this economic wiseacre, Fianna Fáil had prepared plans for dealing with this problem of emigration and unemployment and would put those plans into operation when they took up the reins of office again. Do I appear to be unduly impetuous if after more than two years, I ask where are those plans? When are we likely to see them? Does anybody suggest they have been put into operation and if they have, what contribution have they made to the solution of our emigration and unemployment problems?

The pamphlet writer goes on to say:

The full employment proposals recently announced by Fianna Fáil show how the Party intend to deal with the problem of emigration by providing work for our own people at home.

It goes on further:

The Fianna Fáil plan proposes an increase over five years in the number of new jobs by 100,000.

This would result in full employment and the end of abnormal emigration.

Bear in mind that that document was prepared away back in January, 1957. The Fianna Fáil plan, as then revealed, was to provide 100,000 new jobs in five years. We have gone through more than two of those years. Will anybody on the Fianna Fáil benches tell us where are the new jobs?

Bellacorick.

Over in England.

I am very glad the Deputy can rejoice at that. In a few moments we shall come to the figures which are issued by the Department of the Taoiseach and they will make rather melancholy reading in the non-Bellacorick areas of the country. In any case, Fianna Fáil promised in January, 1957, that there would be 100,000 new jobs in five years. At that rate, we ought to have got 20,000 new jobs per year. Fianna Fáil have been in office for more than two years and one would imagine that we would see increased employment during that period, that, on average, we would see about 40,000 new jobs provided, if the plan was as reliable as the author of this document apparently thought it was.

What are the facts in this connection? Let us look at the number of people in insurable employment? In March, 1956, there were 501,000 persons in insurable employment. In March, 1957, we had 485,900; by March, 1958, it had dropped to 464,000, so that between March, 1956, and March, 1958, the number of people in employment had dropped from 501,000 to 464,000. One does not see 100,000 new jobs there. One does not see the instalment of 40,000 new jobs there which were promised by the economic wizard who wrote this Cork election pamphlet. The plain fact is that there were fewer people employed in 1958 than in 1957, 1956, 1955 or 1954. Where is all the vigour, all the wise planning and all the economic prescience that inspired Fianna Fáil to produce a pamphlet of that kind for distribution in Cork in January, 1957? Although we were told there would be 100,000 new jobs provided if Fianna Fáil came back to office, the position is that two months after that pamphlet was written, there were 485,000 people in employment and that by March the following year, instead of getting an instalment of the 100,000 new jobs, the number in employment had fallen to 464,000.

It is dishonest to deceive credulous, simple people in that way. It would be better to tell them that unemployment was a deep-rooted, deep-seated problem endemic to our economic position and that there could not be an easy or overnight solution. Instead of that, at the last election, Fianna Fáil gave the impression that if they once got the reins of government in their hands again, we would have reached the stage, according to the pamphlet, when we would have full employment and the end of abnormal emigration.

Is it now unreasonable to say that the contention in that pamphlet has been falsified by subsequent events? There has been no ending of emigration. There has been no serious halt in the tidal wave of emigration and since the pamphlet was written, there are, according to the Government's figures, 21,000 fewer people in jobs than there were at that time.

This Budget makes no contribution to the solution of that problem. No speaker on the Government benches has attempted to show that anything in the Budget will arrest this dangerous tendency, much less implement that scheme which the writer of the Cork election pamphlet had in mind when he gaily promised the people of Cork and Ireland: "If you elect Fianna Fáil, you will get 100,000 new jobs in the next five years".

Does anybody believe we have made any impression on the problem of emigration? Every public-spirited citizen who speaks of emigration speaks of it more in sorrow than in anger because he sees not merely that young boys and young girls are leaving the country, but the most serious situation of all developing, that is, that the parents are going as well. The keys are being turned in farmhouses. The doors are being locked. The farm is being allowed to run to weeds and become derelict while the whole family is now finding a living elsewhere. All that is happening in spite of the promise made in the Cork pamphlet that the situation must be righted quickly if disaster is to be avoided.

Speaking recently in Cork, the Most Rev. Dr. Lucey said that the Irish countryside was becoming depopulated at a rate almost equal to that of the famine years. They were told that the countryside was never more prosperous and it was true that it was prosperity for the few. The small farmer or the farm labourer was not prosperous The various public moneys going to agriculture went in the main not to them but to the big farmer. That is the viewpoint of the Bishop of Cork but it is one which is shared by many other people up and down the country.

The countryside is being denuded of its population. People are leaving the rural areas. Those who are not going to the towns and cities, causing housing and other problems there, are going to Britain and elsewhere to earn the livelihood they once got in the Irish countryside. Can anybody, no matter on what bench he may sit in this House, pretend to be unconcerned about that? That is going on while members on the Government Benches are applauding the Budget.

Tonight, while we sit here, there are men and women going to Britain because they cannot get jobs here, because they have a feeling that there are fewer jobs available and that fewer jobs will be available in future. The picture painted by Deputy Wycherley from the West Cork constituency is one of unrelieved gloom. It is not easy to tell people to cheer up, that there are bright days coming, when the picture is such as he described it this evening.

It is because these problems continue with us, because we are making no serious contribution to their solution, that my complaint against the Budget is that it does not face up to the realities of the economic situation nor does it hold out any hope in the foreseeable future that these problems—which are there for years and years, I frankly acknowledge—will find a solution any more than they have found a solution in the past.

My complaint, therefore, is, in face of the need for doing something dynamic, something radical, something that holds out the prospect of a better life for our people, this Budget fiddles with a few things such as the dance tax, greyhound racing tax, taxes on prize fights, fiddling little things of that kind, while the main problems remain. Nobody on the Government Benches appears to realise——

What would the Deputy suggest?

—— that these foibles, these eccentric economic foibles, leave untouched the main problems which beset the life of the country today. Is it any wonder that rural employment is falling and that the picture in the countryside is anything but reassuring? When you find that house-building has virtually ceased in the rural areas, to a considerable extent that is understandable because a substantial number of houses have been built over the years. You cannot go on building houses forever, especially when the needs in many of these areas are satisfied. But when you have housing brought to an end, on the one hand, and all employment stopped under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, on the other hand, you begin to see how serious the problem can be in the rural areas. When you remember, too, that today there are approximately 5,000 fewer people employed on road works than three years ago, the position in the rural areas affords no grounds for satisfaction or complacency.

So far as the rural areas are concerned, the number of persons employed on road work is down by 5,000 in three years; rural electrification is substantially less than it was three years ago; house-building has virtually come to an end in the rural areas and all works under the Local Authorities (Works) Act have ceased. People said that the Local Authorities (Works) Act was not an economic way of carrying out drainage. Even if there were imperfections in it, surely the remedy was not to scrap the entire Act and the machinery of the Act? Surely it would be better to try to repair the imperfections in the Act rather than scrap it entirely? It was obviously unfair to stop all works under the Act without putting something else to take up the sag in employment in the rural areas.

Speaking here this afternoon, I understand that the Minister for Industry and Commerce said there are three classes of persons in this country—banshees, leprechauns and fairies. He classified as a banshee anybody who interpreted the economic situation in a manner which indicated dissatisfaction with the present position and a concern for the future. Today's papers contain a report of a very thoughtful and serious statement made by His Lordship the Bishop of Cork. I suppose, according to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, His Lordship would qualify to be described as a banshee because he took a clear view of the economic situation in the area which constitutes his Diocese. Let anybody reading his Lordship's speech today tell me how far that speech was, in his view, from accurately analysing the economic position in many areas throughout the country. I think there were very sound economics in his Lordship's speech. He pointed to many dangerous signs in the course of his speech and he warned the country of things about which it is right to warn the country. I think he said what is perfectly true, that we must not lose sight of human values in our examination of economic problems.

The plain fact of the matter is that we are the only white country in the world that is losing its population. While you might understand white countries which have very large populations, and a very large excess of births over deaths, desiring to find an outlet for their surplus population, the problem here is not that. The problem here is that we are one of the smallest countries in Western Europe, that our population is falling at a rate which the Bishop of Cork said was almost as serious as in the Famine years. In so far as this Budget is concerned, no serious contribution is made to arrest that decline, to arrest these tendencies. Instead, the Budget is used by members of the Government Party to applaud the Government's achievements, though in their innermost hearts they must realise that the problems which are the essential problems confronting the country are not dealt with effectively in the Budget.

Let me deal with one or two other matters to which the Budget makes reference. In the Budget, provision is made for increasing old age pensions by 2/6 a week, that is, approximately 4d. per day for old age pensioners; but, when you remember that the present old age pension of 25/- per week gives an old age pensioner only the 1908 standard of living which he or she enjoyed on the 5/- per week then provided, and when you remember further that practically everybody's standard of living has increased over the 1908 level, to offer old age pensioners an increase of 2/6 per week is not to deal fairly or justly with that deserving class of the community.

Even when this 2/6 per week is granted, old age pensioners will have virtually no increase on the 1938 standard of living, though 1938 is now 21 years behind us. Does anybody think that is fair? Does anybody think that is a reasonable way of dealing with that class? I believe the whole community would have faced up to whatever is involved in giving old age pensioners a decent increase in their old age pensions, rather than offer them this trifling increase, when the merits of the case demand that they get a much more substantial increase.

The Taoiseach, speaking in this House on 17th July, 1958, said:—

"We must have regard for the sufferings of those undergoing hardships at the moment while we are trying to plan for the future. That is the basis that I, for one, have adopted. When I get programmes from economists pointing out that you must do this and you must do that if you want to be ultimately successful, I have always to ask myself ‘but what about the people at the moment?' We have to keep these in mind just as well as the ultimate good."

These are sentiments with which I thoroughly agree but these sentiments seem to be very far away from the philosophy of a Budget which can give only 2/6 per week to old age pensioners, but which can give a sur-tax concession to a very small minority of the people, although it costs £160,000. There seems to me to be no sense of distributive justice and no sense of real humanitarianism when, faced with the demands of old age pensioners and sur-tax payers, we make available such a trifling increase for old age pensioners and deal with sur-tax payers on a much more generous basis. To have relieved sur-tax payers—whatever the merits of their claim may be—in the way they have been relieved, whilst giving old age pensioners a trifling increase of 2/6 per week, is not acting fairly by a section of the community which the Press and public authority meetings throughout the country have indicated have widespread support in their demand for fair treatment from the Government.

Similarly, in respect of income tax, the Government have made a show by saying they have reduced income tax by 3d. and 6d. In so far as the middle income tax payer is concerned, in so far as the single man with aged parents to maintain is concerned, these income tax concessions amount to a very small sum compared with what could have been given by way of relief in taxation, if more reasonable allowances had been granted under the Old Age Pensions Acts. When you remember these allowances today, in 1959, are less in value than they were in 1938, I think the need for doing something for that middle class of income tax payers, and for the lower wage earners, was much more urgent than it was for giving the income tax concessions to better placed people and better placed undertakings. In that respect, whatever the Minister had to give away in his Budget could have been distributed in a much better way, and with a much better sense of meeting real cases of hardship, than has been displayed by the manner in which the distribution of the concessions was made in his Budget.

I do not want to prolong the debate on this Budget, if it is desired it should finish to-night. I just want to say that the problems of unemployment, emigration, and low productivity, which beset us today, are problems which are a challenge to the nation; that each of these problems has within it a dangerous element of deterioration from the national standpoint and that we do not apparently appreciate the impact these problems are having on the whole economic fabric of the country and the very existence of the nation as a whole.

It is because I believe deeper thinking is necessary, that more radical measures than we have so far adopted are urgently necessary to grapple with the present problems, that I feel this Budget is entitled to be described as a disappointing Budget. One could understand it if we had the percentage of unemployment that other countries in Western Europe have, that is, a percentage of unemployment as low as they have; one might understand it if we had no problem of underemployment, no problem of emigration and no problem of unemployment; but these problems are with us. They stand there defiantly challenging our capacity to govern ourselves on the basis of economic intelligence. It is because these problems are left unsolved by this Budget that, in my view, it does not measure up to the urgent needs of the day.

I think there is a good deal of goodwill in every Party in this House and in the country for an all-out effort to face up to these serious problems in the hope that we can bring them under control in the near future and that we can eradicate the worst features of them in the foreseeable future. The Budget makes no contribution in that respect. Indeed, the Government's whole policy indicates that it does not want their co-operation and that it does not want to harness the goodwill which exists in the country today for an attack upon these problems. If the Government were seriously concerned about the solution of these problems they could find ways and means of getting that co-operation and getting enthusiastic support for an all-out attack on the problems which so far have defied us and divided us.

Instead of that, the Government are engaged trying in another sphere to cause the maximum of disunity and friction and to thwart, by their activities in the field of electoral reform, any prospect of getting the co-operation which has so much to commend it today, when these proposals must be tackled here in the same way as other countries have been forced to tackle them elsewhere. In the next 12 months we shall drift along as we have during the past 12 months. In 12 months hence we shall still have our emigration problem; we shall still have our unemployment problem and our low productivity problem; we shall probably have fewer people in employment, too. We shall have lost valuable intervening time. However, the Government, who have a plan, as they told us in January 1957 in the Cork pamphlet, to find 100,000 jobs in five years, have given no evidence that they intend to honour the promise then made to provide the 100,000 jobs. Apparently they have thrown over that promise in the same way as they have thrown over the promise made by the present Minister for Industry and Commerce, when he was going to find without taxation another £100,000,000 to provide 25,000 new jobs per year.

This Budget is looked on with utter disappointment by the parents of large families. It offers no relief whatever from the famous Budget of 1957 which increased the cost of bread and butter, the mainstays of the large family. Yet we see reliefs being offered to greyhound track owners. It has been said that the country has gone to the dogs. That is one way of doing so. Relief has also been given to dancehall owners. All this shows a poor sense of values.

We have enshrined in the Constitution the principle that the family is the unit of society, but I think that is something only to show foreigners when they come here. When it is a matter of putting the principle into practice, we know how far this Government are prepared to go. That is only natural from Ministers who are far removed from hunger and want. This Budget is an expression of Government policy. For the third time we have had this example of Fianna Fáil ignoring the family. It has been said, and denied, that this is an election Budget, but can it be denied that financial assistance for the coming election will be forthcoming from the interests who have benefited most?

Fianna Fáil have had a good innings in office since this State was founded. What have they to show for all their years but a trail of emigration, unemployment and pessimism? The Minister for Health today mentioned banshees' wailing. I remember three years ago when we had Deputy Briscoe turning this House into a wailing wall about the unemployed building worker. Deputy Briscoe has been very silent about this Budget, and for the past three years has been very silent about the building worker.

There was a rather amusing statement by the Taoiseach the other evening in which he claimed to be a parent of the sugar industry. Now we have him as a sugar daddy. Maybe his memory is failing him. Everyone on this side of the House can remember when he called it a white elephant and when everything which the then President of the Executive Council, Mr. William T. Cosgrave, started was called a white elephant whether the Sweepstakes, the Shannon Scheme or anything else worth while for the country. Anything we have today that is worth having was not started by Fianna Fáil.

I was rather amused by Deputy Haughey's views that we should set about the construction of factories, even though there is not a particular project in mind for them. He said he could visualise the building of factories in towns of any size, for which an industry could be procured. There are three such factories already in my county. There is one in Portumna, a fine building, started by the Government. The crows are building in it and the pigeons are flying through it. We have a fish-freezing plant, known locally as the white elephant. It has been ignored by the Government. We have also, out in the wilds of Connemara, a turf-burning plant. It is closed down with only the caretaker there to keep the machinery oiled. These are the factories we want to work, not ghost factories.

Back to the script.

I shall go back to the script and remind the Deputy that we have in Portumna a factory that could be making sewing machines instead of importing them from the sweated labour countries of the East.

These matters would be relevant on the Estimate. They do not arise on the Financial Resolution.

The large number leaving my constituency every year would welcome that type of industry, but not on sweated wages. It has been said we should encourage the advent of foreign capital. I should like to sound a note of warning about the type of industry coming here. We have a number of industries estabished because certain people were only too glad to get rid of obsolete machinery and set it up here.

A discussion on the type of industry would not be relevant on the Financial Resolution.

That may be so, but I am interested in the provision of these 100,000 jobs promised by Fianna Fáil.

The Deputy will get his opportunity on the relevant Estimate.

Many people got jobs, but they got them in England. I see no hope in this Budget. I see no hope for the emigrant and I see no hope for the man with a large family. There is nothing worthy of note in the Budget.

It would be impossible for me to gather from the Coalition speeches what they really think about this Budget. They have said many things about it. Some said I could not have done less and I should, in fact, have done more. Others said the concessions were miserably low, particularly in the case of the old age pensioners, and even in relation to income tax. Others said some of the concessions were unnecessary and inadvisable. They said that mainly in relation to entertainments tax. Others said the British Chancellor introduced a particular kind of Budget, and I had to follow suit. Still others said I was forced by public opinion to increase the old age pensions.

I should like to say here and now that I got many resolutions from public authorities and from labour unions asking me to increase the old age pensions but not a single one of them asked for anything for the noncontributory widow or the recipient of unemployment assistance. I, at least, had the thought to do something for them without any pressure of any kind from public opinion. The Fine Gael speakers and the Labour speakers spoke all the time about the old age pensioners. They forgot, even in this House, that there were such people as non-contributory widows and recipients of unemployment assistance who might not have enough on which to live. There was a wave of public opinion, built largely upon itself. Fine Gael Deputies and Labour Deputies read certain things in the paper. They had neither the interest nor the energy to think of anybody else.

I referred to both when I spoke immediately after the Budget.

I am glad to hear the Deputy did. He laboured the point of the inadequate amount given to the old age pensioner. Despite all the faults that can be found in the Budget, it is now said it is an election Budget. I can dismiss that in a few words. It is not an election Budget and I shall take ten to one from any Deputy here on the election, with or without the Budget. There is no necessity for an election Budget. Every Deputy knows that quite well and I am certain no Deputy will lay his £1 to my £10 on the Presidential election.

What are the odds on the referendum? Is that ten to one, too?

Now, I listened to a lot of nonsense from the Deputy.

What is the best price on the referendum?

Order! The Minister should be allowed to conclude.

We will make it ten to one, too.

Very well.

The Deputy will not take it on the Presidential Election though.

I wanted to see what the Minister was offering on the referendum.

I am sure the Deputy is just as much against our candidate in the Presidential Election as he is against the referendum on P.R. He is not, however, prepared to lay on one, but he is on the other. I know Fine Gael speakers are politically minded. Deputy Blowick summed up the mentality of Fine Gael. In his very first words he said: "It is a mean Budget and it is an election Budget." I left the House after that. I can stand a good deal.

And the Minister stayed away for a very long time.

The Fine Gael Party— this applies to every member of it because I have no evidence that would exclude any member—are so politically minded that they cannot imagine any Government bringing in a Budget which would not give them some political kudos. I always believed a Government were bound to do the best they could for the people. Sometimes it might be very popular, but, popular or unpopular, they had to do their best, even if there were no political kudos. That, however, evidently, does not come within the imagination of Fine Gael Deputies. They cannot see how any Government could act in that way. Because of that inability on their part, we wasted a great deal of time here. Fine Gael looked at the Budget to see what the political motive was. They examined it for a political motive. They talked a lot about the political motive, even though there was no political motive in it at all. We wasted a great deal of time because of that undesirable mental approach.

Many Deputies on the Opposition benches spoke about the inadequacy of the increase in the old age pension. Deputy Kyne was one and Deputy Norton another. Deputy Norton was a very influential member of the previous Government. He was in office until the end of February, 1957. The cost of living since that time has gone up by about six per cent. We are increasing the old age pension by 11 per cent. If we are not doing enough now, then Deputy Norton and his Government certainly did not do enough then.

We did much more. We kept the cost of living down.

If the Deputy thinks we have left old age pensioners badly off vis-a-vis the cost of living, then they were much worse off under the Coalition Government in which Deputy Norton played a prominent part.

The Minister is charging them more for their bread and butter.

I am talking about the cost of living. Deputy Norton wants to confuse the issue and get out of it as best he can. He said we are not doing enough. He said we should not wait until 1st August. Deputy Norton knows legislation is necessary. Possibly legislation could be rushed, but the increase in the old age pension could not be paid tomorrow or the next day. Deputy Norton spent two years between 1949 and 1951 making up his mind to give something to the old age pensioners, amongst others. He is not the person to talk now because he missed the bus at the end of the two years, went out of office and gave them nothing at all. He did nothing for them in two years and now he talks about our meanness.

That is not true. Look up the social welfare legislation.

He was preparing a social welfare scheme. I was, as a matter of fact, being kind to him. I said two years; he was almost three years. He missed the bus, went out of office and gave the old age pensioners nothing.

Look at what we did for the old age pensioners in 1948.

Deputy Norton was in office for three years, and did nothing.

We will get the facts by way of question.

People living in glass houses should not throw stones.

There is no glass in the Minister's house at all. The Minister has wrecked it. The Minister can laugh now, of course.

It is a joke.

The Minister can laugh at the people, too.

When Deputy Norton is laughing, he is laughing at me. That is the sort of thing we get from Deputy Norton. He turns it on us and says we are laughing at the people. Look at the Deputy. He has done well on the people. He is the full of the seat.

The Minister can laugh at them now.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister should be allowed to conclude.

The Minister wants to go on with this sort of thing because he is not replying to the debate.

I am replying to the false statements made by Fine Gael and Labour speakers. I am talking about the Budget all the time. Now I come to another point, to dog-racing. There was a great sneer about dog racing. I sat on the opposite side when Deputy Dillon brought in a Bill dealing with dog-racing and every Fine Gael speaker got up and spoke about the small farmer who was keeping a dog. Deputies can go back and read it. Deputy Dillon, they said, was going to do something for the small farmer who was keeping a dog. The "big fellow" could keep race horses, but the small farmer about whom they were all crying could only keep a dog, and Deputy Dillon was going to do something for him. Deputy Dillon went on with this Bill and provided for a Board in it. He did not conclude the Bill. We did. We concluded it and the Board was set up as laid down in the original Bill.

You made a hare out of it.

Bord na gCon was set up. Bord na gCon came to me and said they were trying to do something for the man rearing dogs, the small farmers referred to by Fine Gael speakers. A man rearing a dog could sell it and get a good price for it but he could not get a good price for it unless he had tried it out at the race track. The race tracks are in a very bad condition financially and are giving very poor stakes. The only remedy is to take off the tax. The case was put to me that I should do something for the man rearing the dog, the small farmer who was always being praised by Fine Gael. That was when Deputy Dillon was proposing to do something for them. Now when I come along to complete the task there is nothing but a sneer from Fine Gael and Labour speakers, including Deputy Norton, about greyhounds. Is it that this crying and this sympathy for the small farmers was all right when Deputy Dillon did it but that when I am doing it it is more important to make Fine Gael propaganda than to stand up for the small farmer? Is that not the position, that they have decided to make propaganda——

So the small farmer is in heaven now.

The small farmer with a dog will get better prices. I do not say he is in heaven. It takes Deputy Norton to put people into heaven. He has been quoting the Bishop of Cork.

I am sorry if the Minister is annoyed about that.

I am not annoyed. I am edified. Deputy Everett—he is not here now—said at one time he had proof in his pocket that the Deputy was a Communist. Now the Deputy is quoting Bishops.

(Interruptions.)

I want to impress on Fine Gael Deputies that they are more interested in Fine Gael propaganda than in the small farmer. They were quite interested in the small farmer when Deputy Dillon brought in the Bill but when I come along to complete the job they can only sneer. Bord na gCon got an undertaking from the tracks that they will increase stakes as a result of this Budget provision. If the stakes are increased, the dogs will get more and they will be worth more and the man who rears the dog will benefit.

What about the rock ‘n' roll fellow now?

What is the Deputy talking about?

The Minister may be sure he lost his vocation.

Now we shall take prizefighting. Deputy Norton had great contempt for that also. There is a heavy tax on prize fighting. So far as I know—although I have not been able to get verification of this—it is the only sport that is taxed, now that the tax is off greyhound racing. There was no income from it because the tax was too high and that was the position when the Dublin Tóstal Council wrote asking me to remove the tax on professional boxing. They thought— they could not be certain—they might be able to organise a contest during the Tóstal. My job as Minister for Finance is to get in the money and I was getting no money from that tax. They said they wanted to have it removed and why should I not take it off when there was no reason to keep it on, unless I thought it was an evil thing to allow? That is not my job. I am not there to protect people's morals. I am there as Minister for Finance to collect tax if I can get it and if I take off the tax, let the moralists, like Deputy Norton, step in and stop professional boxing from the moral point of view if they wish to do so.

The Minister will have Joe Louis here next while the Irish are going to England.

Cultural pursuits for the Tóstal.

Deputies opposite can consider further the potentialities of that for propaganda purposes. Now I come to the dance tax.

Strike up the band!

I got a number of letters about that, but the letter that impressed me was a letter from a semi-charitable organisation which held a dance every Sunday night in a provincial town. The money was put to a very good purpose, but they were put out of business——

The local cumann must have been hard up.

No, it was not. Again, that is the Fine Gael idea that everything is done for a selfish motive and that nothing is done for a good motive.

Is charity not exempt?

Deputy Lynch must have learned his lesson from the gentlemen on his right.

Is charity not exempt?

Yes, charity is exempt. I said semi-charitable. The Deputy might not understand that.

I know what both are.

This organisation wrote to me. I know they were putting the money to good use. Deputy Corish would know them if I mentioned the name. They were put out of business because they could not compete with rural dances. They were charging only 2/6d., but they could not get a band and so on. That was the principal thing that influenced me—along with other letters that I got. I asked the Revenue Commissioners to try to give me a scheme exempting from taxation dances up to a certain admission charge, say 2/6d. That is what I got and that is what I did. When speakers get up here and say: "You were able to do only so much for the old age pensioners and yet you could do such-and-such for the dancehalls and for dog racing" I can only refer to that as an ignorant sort of argument.

The Minister is a good judge of ignorance. Everybody knows that.

I shall be—after this.

The Minister has degrees in ignorance.

(Interruptions.)

I was going to take the Deputy as an example but he forestalled me.

These interruptions should cease.

Does the argument on the Opposition side imply that if it is a big thing everybody appears to agree to it? Does it mean that, even if there is a good cause, we can never do anything for it because only a small amount of money is involved? Have we not had Governments in the past that gave small reliefs as well as big reliefs? And were the small reliefs not as praiseworthy sometimes as the big reliefs? Still we shall not say that that must not be given, that we must keep the whole lot and put them into a pool for a big relief and not give anything at all where the small relief would be of some use.

When speaking of relief Deputy Costello gave the impression that the Coalition Government were always giving reliefs in their Budgets and that Fianna Fáil were always doing the reverse. I must get a Fine Gael Deputy to ask me a question on that. It would be most instructive if they saw the answer to that. I do not think Fine Gael people gave much relief on the last occasion on which they were in office. Certainly they put on some taxation when they were there. It would be no harm at all if a statement of that kind were produced for Deputy Costello's information and for his followers. The thing that annoyed Fine Gael was that we were able to balance a Budget for 1958-59 and that it was the first time that it was done for ten years and especially that it was creditable for Fianna Fáil to be able to do that only two years after coming into office when the finances of this country were in the worst state they had ever been in since this Parliament was started.

There was a gap of £11,000,000.

That is untrue.

It is not; it absolute fact and the Deputy knows it.

It is untrue and the Minister knows it.

Go back and read the Budget statement in 1957. It is set out there. Deputy Sweetman left me to face a position where £11 million had to be covered. He knows that very well.

It is not true.

The only reply the Deputy can now give is that it is untrue. I am asking him now to go back and look at the White Paper or the Budget Statement and he will see that it is true. Seeing that that was the position two years ago, it is a very creditable thing for a Government to be able to come here two years later and say that we have balanced our Budget. That is the reason there has been so much criticism, so much dissatisfaction and so much fault-finding with this Budget.

Deputy Sweetman cast doubts on the validity of the figures which were given to show that the 1958-59 Budget was balanced. Deputy Sweetman knows—there may be Deputies who do not study these things very closely and may not realise it—that the conditions are laid down before the Budget is put into operation. Last year when I introduced the Budget for 1958-59, I issued Tables, White Papers and so on, which showed what expenditure had to be met in 1958-59 on the Estimates for Public Services and Central Fund expenditure. On the other side I showed what it was expected would come in from taxation and from revenue and from non-tax revenue by way of income. It was all set out and what is more, it was set out under the Estimates for Public Services. The items that would be treated as capital were set out as well as the items which were not to be treated as capital. That is the procedure every year. It was done in the Budget for 1958 and when the figures came to be examined at 31st March, 1959, it was found that the Budget had been balanced.

Deputy Sweetman tried to give the impression that the figures were cooked or interfered with in some way. When a Deputy on this side was speaking, Deputy Sweetman thought that he had got a very good point. He rubbed his hands and said: "Oh, I have it all now," and he began arguing about the way we had dropped the word "overestimation."

In that 1958/59 statement, I said that I estimated that we would save £1.5 million through overestimation. Actually we did not. We spent all we had put into the Book of Estimates but we did have enough income to meet expenditure and we balanced our Budget. There is no doubt about that. Deputy Sweetman tried to give the impression that I had avoided mentioning this question of over-estimation and he took up these Tables for 1959 and said that overestimation was omitted from Table 1. I said it was not and he said it was. I again said it was not and he said it was, and we said that four or five times and then it stopped. But it is mentioned——

But it is not.

I shall read it.

What I said was that it was mentioned in the Estimates but not in the out-turn.

I shall read the out-turn, too. The Deputy said it was not mentioned and I said it was. If he looks at column 2, No. 4—I shall read it slowly—he will see: "Savings and Over-Estimation—net deduction from expenditure, £1.5 million."

The Minister left out one letter.

I am not going to leave out anything. I shall give (b), the Deputy need have no fear. Deputy Sweetman said the word "over-estimation" was not mentioned. Deputies have these Tables. Table 1 of the Financial Statement at column 2, No. 4, refers to "Savings and Overestimation"-O-V-E-R E-S-T-I-M-AT-I-O-N. It is there as large as anybody would like to see it and the Deputy said it was not there.

Spell it again.

"Savings and over-estimation, net deduction from expenditure." We shall come to (b) now. So it is there and the Deputy said four times that it was not.

Will the Minister go on and read the last column?

I shall read (b).

No, the last column first. It shows nil, nothing, a dash.

There was no saving, of course.

I have said that already. There was no saving. But the Deputy said it was not mentioned; now he is trying to get out another way. He should apologise. He says: "Read the last column." It was always the practice in this House that when a Deputy was caught out in an untruth, he apologised.

The Minister is the man who is caught out.

Over-estimation is there.

Will the Minister read what I said?

What does (b) say?

On a point of explanation, the Minister is purporting to quote me, but I shall quote column 1030 of the Dáil Debates, vol. 174, No. 7 in which I said:—

"This year for the first time the Minister threw into his current Budget out-turn Table...."

Now the Minister knows the out-turn Table is the last column in which there is a dash and not the one he has quoted from.

A dash—over-estimation.

The Minister should know that——

I said £1.5 million— actually, a dash, because there was no realisation of over-estimation. What was I to put into it? What could I put in, when I did not realise the over-estimation? I could not put in anything. What does the Deputy want me to do? To quote the figures or not?

To tell the truth.

The Budget provided for a net adjustment of £1.5 millions by way of deduction from expenditure to allow for errors of estimation. You could not give a better definition of over-estimation than that. I wanted to be allowed for my error of estimation in the expenditure. I put in £1.5 millions. I stated then in a footnote, for the ordinary Deputy to see what it meant: "This is by way of deduction from expenditure to allow for errors of estimation." Surely nothing could be clearer than that?

Read the next sentence, too, please.

"The actual outturn represents a net adjustment."

The net adjustment, the same net adjustment.

£1.660 millions.

The phrase, "net adjustment" is intended to mean the same thing in both cases; but it does not.

Does the Deputy want to change his mind again, before I say any more? Whatever I say, he changes on to something else.

Read what I said before. It is there on the record.

He is shifting his ground all the time.

No; I am quite happy with the record.

When I prove him wrong on one thing, he shifts to another, and when I prove that is wrong he shifts again.

The Minister thought I would not have my speech in front of me and that he could pretend I said something which I did not say.

The Minister should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

When the Minister is quoting anybody, he should quote correctly.

Deputy Sweetman thought he would give the impression that I was doing something sinister with these Tables. Surely it is plain enough for anybody to read? It has been the practice always, well back before Deputy Sweetman's time, when Ministers did balance their Budgets, to take the figure of over-income as well as under-expenditure; and if that was a balance, it was all right and was regarded as a balance. Deputy Sweetman is not satisfied with that now.

Would the Minister like to take a little bet with me, that that is the first time that Table has been published in the last 10, 12 or 15 years in that form?

I am going on to the Budget Statement now.

It is the first time for 15 years—I have not checked back beyond that—that that Table was published like that.

There is nothing which can be gained from that. We should not have this sort of accusation against a Minister. Deputy Sweetman knows very well that if I tried to cook a figure like that, I would find it very hard to get away with it. I would probably have the resignation of the Secretary of the Department or of the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners. The Deputy knows that figures cannot be cooked or altered. The only effect of his allegation is to shake the public confidence in the public finances.

The Deputy may not admit that, but that is the effect of it. When I was reading my Budget speech, dealing with this point, I said:

Despite the large supplementary sums needed to support wheat and butter prices, Supply Services expenditure exceeded the budgetary figure by only £96,000. In fact, current expenditure on the Supply Services was £1.4 million lower last year than in 1957-58. Though taxation was not increased, revenue exceeded our expectations.

I gave the reasons for that:

Lower short-term interest rates led to a small saving in the Central Fund Services. The net effect of all this was to justify—and more than justify—the allowance of £1½ million for errors of estimation.

I explained there to everybody concerned that I was wrong in overestimating—in putting in the over-estimation figure for expenditure—but that, if I was wrong in that, on the other hand revenue was £1½ millions more than I expected; and, therefore, we get the result we were looking for, a balanced Budget. The real point is that current expenditure was covered by current income. There is no doubt about that. Also, it is the first time this occurred for 10 years.

Deputy O'Higgins, when speaking today, spoke about "the shady things done in these figures." The thing referred to in particular was the import levies. When Deputy Sweetman brought in these import levies in 1956, he provided by law, actually that they would go on the capital side and would not be used for current expenditure. When I came along the following year and was preparing the Budget, I stuck to that; the law was there and I did not interfere with the law. Therefore, the Budget for 1957-58 provided that the income from the import levies would go to the capital side and it was not used for balancing the Budget. Last year, however, there was actually a clause in the Finance Act altering the law passed in 1956 and providing that the produce of the import levies could be used for current expenditure. Surely there was no hole and corner business about that? There was a clause actually put into the Finance Act last year to have that done. In the Budget Statement for 1958-59, it was pointed out that the produce of the import levies would be treated as current income and used, therefore, for current expenditure.

There was another item mentioned by Deputy Sweetman. I have not got the item here but I remember it. He dealt with the income from Germany in respect of war reparations. Deputy Sweetman said that was an item which should have been put on the capital side. As a matter of fact, it was not £295,000; it was £270,000. In the 1957 Budget I said that it was expected that we would get this amount from Germany in that particular year and against that I provided £250,000 for agricultural marketing. That money was paid over out of current income. If in one year I pay a sum out of current income and if I get what I expect to get against that the year after, I do not think I am going too far in taking it into current income against that particular expenditure. It is true, of course, that it was a different year— I admit that—but I say I was not going outside the bounds of propriety in regard to public finance in saying that I would treat it as a current income item.

But the Minister had to borrow for the £250,000, had he not?

I had to borrow for it?

As part of the £6,000,000?

I had not to borrow for it.

The Deputy means the year before? Yes.

The first year; not last year, the year before.

That is quite true; but, of course, the Deputy had to borrow £6,000,000 the year before, even though he did not take the import levies in at all.

If I had taken them in, it would be a very different story.

You would have borrowed less, that is right. You would not have balanced the Budget— that is the only thing about it.

If all the expenditure were treated like that, it would all come back to you.

Deputy Lynch should not talk of things he does not know anything about.

I know something about that. In anything about agriculture, I will take the Minister on, as in that he was the greatest failure and racketeer ever known in this country.

The Deputy may not make a speech at this stage.

The Minister was kicked out of the Department of Agriculture by his own leader.

These personalities must cease.

I mentioned a figure of 250,000 and he came back to me to tell me what I knew.

I do not want to leave that point, which is very important, without having it thoroughly understood by every side of the House that there is no trickery, nothing concealed about it. Everything is put down in that White Paper before the Budget is brought in—where the money is to come from, how much we expect to get, where the money will be spent and how much we estimate we shall spend. As I said, the items in the Estimates for Public Services that will be treated as capital expenditure are taken. So, there is no opportunity of doing anything to alter these things once the thing is laid down. Having laid down that sort of outline, as it were, the Minister must stick to that and he tries to balance his Budget on that, as far as he can.

As I said already, in 1956-57 and in 1957-58 the produce of the import levies was used for capital but last year it was brought in to the current account and that has made some difference, of course, I admit, and Deputy Sweetman is quite right. I think what he said was that if I had not done that I could not have balanced the Budget. That is all right. I could not, of course. But what the Minister does when he is producing his Budget is to give his estimate. I said last year, "I need this item to balance the Budget", and I was right. If I had not got it I would not have balanced the Budget. I needed it. What is more, I did not, certainly, do it in any hole and corner way because, not alone had I to put it into the Statement but I had to bring in a clause in the Finance Bill to revoke the clause which Deputy Sweetman had put in in 1956, which made it a capital item. So, there was no sleight of hand about that business. There is no doubt about that.

Opposition speakers referred to the removal of the food subsidies in practically all their speeches. I have spoken here on two or three occasions and I have asked Ministers of the last Government to explain to me what they intended to do if they had come back because Deputy Sweetman and Deputy Costello told me, and it is on the records of the House, that in November of 1956 the Government had decided that the expenditure would not exceed £96½ million. They raised that by £2 million afterwards in order to cover some C.I.E. expenditure. When we came in and saw this gap of £11 million I came to the conclusion, and the Government agreed with me, that we had to abolish the food subsidies in order to cover that gap. By doing that, we got exactly the £98½ million that the Coalition Government had decided upon in November, 1956. It is about £5½ million taken off, anyway.

Here is the point: would the Coalition Government or any of their Ministers, whether Deputy Sweetman or Deputy Norton, tell me what they had in mind in November, 1956? No Government comes to a conclusion like that unless they can see their way through it. No Government will say: "We shall not allow expenditure to go up to a certain sum" without knowing what they were going to pare down. They were certainly an incompetent Government if they did it without knowing how they would get it. If they knew how they would get it, they never told us how they would get it. They never told us how they would get that £5½ million, and it was exactly the amount by which I got the expenditure down when I removed the food subsidies. Am I not entitled, as I said here two years ago, to say that the evidence is all against that Government; that they intended to abolish the food subsidies? There is no other explanation for it. They have not offered an explanation. I could imagine that if Deputy Norton could say now: "Well, I could go £4 million and we could take a chance on the other," I would say: "That is fair enough," but when they cannot even go half a million pounds then I think we are entitled to say that they had intended to abolish the food subsidies if they had formed a Government again.

That is a falsehood.

How were you going to get the money?

That is a falsehood.

How were you going to get the money?

That is a falsehood, the Minister knows.

People will not believe it is a falsehood unless the Deputy tells me how you were going to get the money.

Tell us about Belmullet.

Do not interfere in this. The Deputy will spoil things for them. They are trying to keep this thing as quiet as they can. Do not interfere.

There is no quietness at all.

If Deputy Norton says it is a falsehood, we will accept that when we get some indication of how they were going to get the money.

You can beat the other people but you know it was a falsehood.

I do not.

Then the Minister has lost any sense or knowledge of the difference between truth and falsehood.

I say it is not a falsehood until I hear an explanation.

Everybody is guilty until he proves himself innocent. Fianna Fáil justice—shades of the Curragh Camp.

The Deputy was present at the meeting in November. He agreed that the expenditure would be brought down by £5½ million.

I agreed that the food subsidies would remain and they would have remained were it not for his Government, and the Minister knows it too.

The Deputy cannot say how it was going to be done.

The Deputy should allow the Minister to conclude.

Deputy Norton—I suppose it applies to all of them—was either an incompetent Minister and did not know how it could be done or he knew how it was going to be done. If he knew how it was going to be done, why would he not tell us about it?

The Minister does not know what he is talking about to-night.

The Deputy is going to get vexed now because he is found out.

I am prefectly happy.

This is a good bit of an act. Why will the Minister not answer the question that the Taoiseach said he would answer? The Taoiseach said here the other day that the Minister for Finance would answer that question at the conclusion.

The Deputy cannot make another speech at this stage. He should allow the Minister to conclude in the few moments that are left.

I shall not conclude to-night. I am sorry, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I shall not be able to conclude to-night——

——because Deputy Norton and others would not give me a chance to talk.

On a point of order, may I ask the Minister if, as a matter of courtesy to the Taoiseach, he will deal with the question raised by Deputy Lynch before he concludes?

What question is that?

The question of the unemployment figures.

I shall be on that. I shall certainly deal with that. We shall have to leave it until to-morrow. I should like to get this point clear before 10.30: will Deputy Norton tell me where that £5½ million was to come from?

The Minister forgets that it is he who is in the dock at the bar of public opinion. He is in the dock.

Of course. We were put in the dock, but wrongly. That is the point, because there was no other way of doing it and ex-Ministers know that and had provided for it and if any ex-Minister will tell me where he would get even £4 million out of the £5 million I shall say: "All right; I will accept that" but they have not even told me where they would get one-half of it.

Where is the Tánaiste's £100 million coming from, or even one-half of it? I shall settle for half. Where is half of it coming from?

I want to give notice that to-morrow, when I start, I shall do away with this Suez story.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 29th April, 1959.
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