Committee on Finance. - Apprenticeship Bill, 1958—Money Resolution. – Dáil Éireann (16th Dáil) – Wednesday, 21 Oct 1959

Committee on Finance. - Apprenticeship Bill, 1958—Money Resolution.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. J. Lynch)

I move:—

That for the purpose of any Act of the present session to make better provision for the regulation of apprenticeship in certain trades and for that purpose to establish a body to be known as An Cheard-Chomhairle and to define its powers and duties, to repeal the Apprenticeship Act, 1931, and to provide for other matters connected with the matters aforesaid it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of:—

(1) the expenses incurred in the administration of such Act, and

(2) a grant in each financial year of such amount as the Minister for Industry and Commerce, with the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, may sanction towards the expenses of An Cheard-Chomhairle in the performance of its functions.

Mr. Cosgrave

Would the Minister explain now or later on what categories are included in this Bill? From the Second Reading debate I know what categories are excluded, but representations have been made to me about the position of small undertakings, such as a grocery shop where there is an apprentice or two. Do the terms of this measure apply to an undertaking of that sort?

Mr. Norton

It is about 12 months since the House was told that this Bill was urgent. I suggested then that instead of trying to push this measure through the Dáil like a bull in a china shop, the intelligent way of dealing with it would be for the Department of Industry and Commerce to sit down with representatives of the Trade Union Congress and the Federated Union of Employers and endeavour to work out some kind of agreed Bill. However, the present Taoiseach was rather temperamental on that occasion and said no, this had to be done quickly and examination of it had to be done speedily. When the temperament passed and sweet reasonableness prevailed, everybody realised that the best thing to do was to get the unions, on the one hand, and the employers, on the other, to work out an agreed Bill, because no Bill that is not an agreed Bill between the unions and the employers can be made to operate. That apparently dawned belatedly on somebody.

We have a committee of the Federated Union of Employers and the Congress of Irish Unions and I understand that it met on many occasions and that a very substantial area of agreement has been arrived at. The Minister has had no opportunity of telling the House of the work that has been done or what area of agreement has been reached, whether the amendments represent agreement between the two bodies or in what instance the amendments are, in fact, decisions by the Minister rather than the result of agreement between the two sides.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

At the moment we are discussing a Money Resolution.

Mr. Norton

I wish to know whether our money is being spent on an agreed Bill or not.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The discussion would arise later on the Bill. We are discussing whether the money should be made available or not.

Mr. Norton

I want to make sure that it is voted for a measure that will give the maximum measure of agreement and to ascertain whether I should vote for the expenditure of the money in this way. I want the Minister to tell us how much of this Bill is an agreed Bill and how much represents decisions by the Department involving an amendment not necessarily agreed on, or in fact which may be opposed by the representatives of the bodies who discussed this matter during the past 12 months. I think the Minister should welcome this opportunity of giving these details.

Mr. J. Lynch

I was going to avail of the opportunity on the Committee Stage. There was a joint committee set up which was representative of the Federated Union of Employers and the Trade Union Congress. As the Deputy is aware the Bill comprises 63 sections and there are 53 amendments. The 53 amendments very largely comprise the agreed suggestions of the joint committee. I shall indicate in the course of the debate on the sections on Committee Stage the extent to which there was agreement and the attitude I adopted as a result of disagreement that might have emerged.

Mr. Norton

It makes it possible to discuss the Bill in a much better atmosphere if it embraces agreement between the two sides.

Mr. Cosgrave

I understand that the Minister or his predecessor informed the two bodies concerned that, with the exception of, I think, Section 40, and recommendations leading to the training of certain apprentices, he was accepting all the recommendations. Has the Minister's attitude changed since then or has there been some further development?

Resolution reported and agreed to.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Oct 1959