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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Nov 1959

Vol. 177 No. 7

Private Members' Business. - Social Welfare Benefits: Motion.

I move:—

That in view of the increase in the cost of living since present scales of benefits were fixed, and the general inadequacy of the rates of benefits now paid, Dáil Éireann is of opinion that old age, blind and widows' and orphans' pensions, sickness and unemployment benefits and unemployment assistance should be increased immediately.

It should hardly be necessary to stress, or explain in detail, the terms of this motion or to give any justification for having it brought before Dáil Éireann. During the past hour, five, six or seven Deputies paid tribute to the Land Commission and the Minister for Lands for doing a certain thing which will give a certain amount of property to people who already have some, if only a little, property. This motion deals with people who have no property and, mind you, it is not alone for those who have no property we speak, but also for those who not only have no property but who have no means except what the community, through State legislation, decides to give them.

The motion is in two different parts. It pertains to two different sections: those in receipt of social assistance and those in receipt of social insurance. It should be stressed, in the first place, that so far as social welfare benefits, as they are called are concerned, they are divided into two different classes. Many people are under the impression that every person who draws a pension, an allowance, or a benefit from the State, is getting a complete handout. It is true in some cases that it is a complete handout in so far as there is no contribution for it. That applies in respect of old age pensions, widows' and orphans' non-contributory pensions, blind pensions and unemployment assistance, to quote a few.

There are others: those in receipt of unemployment benefit and sickness benefit and those in receipt of widows' and orphans' contributory pensions. These are people who are not getting a handout from the State. They are people who have to contribute and whose employers have contributed, week after week, month after month, and year after year, by way of the insurance stamp affixed to the insurance card.

I should like to speak first about those people who are absolutely dependent on social assistance. When we talk about social assistance, we think of old age pensioners. I have a fair idea of the type of reply I shall get from the Government benches when the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister stands up to reply. In any case, we in the Labour Party believe that the treatment of the old age pensioners and those in receipt of unemployment assistance, blind pensions and widows' and orphans' non-contributory pensions should be vastly improved. There should be an effort, or some sign of an effort, on the part of the Government to make such an improvement. I shall probably be told, in respect of old age pensions that there has been an increase in recent years as the cost of living increased. That may be a fact to a certain extent, but that is not our entire case here this evening.

As will be noted from the terms of the motion, we talk not only about the increase in the cost of living, but we specifically stress, in the second line of the motion, the general inadequacy of the rates of benefits paid at present. We may have regard to the cost of living and try to delude or "kid" ourselves by saying that old age pensioners and others have got proportional increases. It is a long time since the initial 5/- was given to the old age pensioner. It seems ever so long ago since the old age pensioner was asked to exist on 10/- per week. In relatively recent years, in the past ten or 12 years, we were a little more generous as far as the increase in the cost of living was concerned. However, I do not think any of us would readily admit that our old age pensioners are getting the treatment they deserve.

The old age pensioner is now receiving 27/6 per week. We have spoken about judges and justices within the past fortnight. The Taoiseach said that because the cost of living increased by 15 per cent. between 1953 and the present time the least we could do for these people would be to give them an increase of 10 per cent. He regretted we could not give judges and justices the full increase of 15 per cent. Bear in mind that, in receiving an increase of 10 per cent., one of these gentlemen, at least, will receive an increase, not an actual salary but an increase, of £480 per annum which is something approaching an increase of £10 per week. I do not base my argument entirely on a comparison with the salaries paid to judges, justices and members of the Supreme Court but I think there is a vast difference, to say the least of it, in the two cases. It is certainly not overstating the position to say that between the income of certain sections of the community and that of those who are required to live on 27/6 a week, there is a vast difference.

If one has regard to an old age pensioner living on his or her own, who has to pay even 3/- or 4/- per week for rent, we can readily calculate what is left to buy the other necessities of life, particularly food. It means that about 23/- or 24/- per week is left. Divided by seven, it means that the old age pensioner living on his or her own has something like 3/- or 3/6d. per day for maintenance. We must ask ourselves how can anybody buy sufficient food, not to talk of anything else, on the small sum of 3/6d. per day?

In all fairness to the Department and to the officials, it should be said that the blind person has some little extra. There are some different schemes whereby he can benefit to a slightly greater extent. Weighted against that is the fact that the recipient is blind. He cannot do for himself. He cannot enjoy many of the pleasures of life that even an old age pensioner can because he has no sight. The fact still remains that, with these other small schemes for blind pensioners, the State says, in effect: "A blind pension of 27/6d. a week is sufficient."

Consider the widow whose husband, before his death, had not sufficient stamps. She is now in receipt of a widow's or a widow's and orphans' non-contributory pension and gets something like 26/- per week. Without going into figures, it must be abundantly clear to everybody that we cannot be proud of the position.

Consider the much-abused, unfortunate man on the dole, the man who draws unemployment assistance. The single man gets something like 19/- per week if he resides in an urban area but if he happens to live in a rural area he gets something like 13/- per week. That is a situation which not alone the Government but the general public will have to face and do something to relieve. In particular, these men and women who must have recourse to unemployment assistance, or the dole as it is generally called, will have to be assisted in some way. Neither the community nor the State can provide work for them. We have no work to give them. We have neither productive work nor non-productive work for them.

We say, in effect: "If you stay in this country and in a rural area we shall give you 13/- per week." They must feel pretty bitter and cynical so far as the Government and the public are concerned, especially when some people accuse them of loitering around the labour exchange merely to draw the dole. The vast majority of them do not want to draw the dole. The vast majority of them want not the dole, not the 13/- or 19/- per week, but employment. That employment has not been forthcoming and is not forthcoming from the Government. Therefore, I suggest the Government will have to face the problem of providing work for these people, whether productive or non-productive, or else give them some inducement to stay in their own country by giving them a somewhat better allowance.

On two occasions the Parliamentary Secretary has made the remark—he said it last week in reply to Deputy T. Lynch who raised the subject of the inadequacy of the old age pension— that it is only a grant-in-aid. He said that in a voice which was not too audible. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us what he means by a "grant-in-aid"? I am sure old age pensioners in Wexford would not understand if I said to them that they were not expected to live on that 27/6d. per week as it is only a grant-in-aid. What does the Parliamentary Secretary imagine they have to supplement the 27/6d. per week? Is he of the opinion that these people have some sort of income? Is he of the opinion that they are assisted to any extent by other people and that the 27/6d. per week is a sort of bonus or present from the State? I assume the Parliamentary Secretary's reply to me will be something like this: "The local authorities have responsibility", "Their families have responsibility" or "Some charitable organisations have responsibility towards those in receipt of old age pensions, blind pensions, widows' pensions and unemployment assistance."

Let me take the position of the local authorities first. The Parliamentary Secretary knows as well as I do that many local authorities in this country, representing the ratepayers, refuse to accept the responsibility placed upon them by this House under the Public Assistance Act, 1936. Therefore, these old age pensioners, blind persons, widows and people on the dole wonder who is responsible for them. They are not wastrels. Because of their age the old age pensioners cannot work. They get the old age pension because they have not an income of a certain amount. The vast majority of them have no income whatever. The means test provides that if they have not more than £52 10s. per annum they may qualify for an old age pension.

Most people assume that, because they get the old age pension under that means test, they have £52 10s. per annum, or £1 per week, but such is not the case. The local authorities are not too generous. As far as I am aware, many of the local authorities will not come to the assistance of an old age pensioner if that old age pensioner is not living on his own. I had occasion to go to a certain local authority recently to ask for assistance for an old age pensioner and I was asked immediately: "Is he living on his own?" If he is living on his own, they give him 5/-. If he or she happens to be living with somebody else, whether a relative or not, the local authority give nothing.

Therefore, we can accept that it is only in exceptional circumstances that a local authority will come to the assistance of an old age pensioner, a blind person or a widow and then only to a very small extent. That is another very good reason why the Parliamentary Secretary should clarify his two recent statements to the effect that this sort of weekly assistance is merely a grant-in-aid. They may get assistance in some cases from their families but the heads of the vast majority of these families find it difficult to maintain themselves, their wives and their families and they believe it is not unreasonable that the State should not necessarily keep these people fully and in the utmost comfort, but treat them a little better than they have been treated over a long number of years.

There may be quoted to me the cost of living index. The cost of living index has no bearing on the cost of living to such as an old age pensioner. I said that in the House before and I repeat it tonight. The cost of living index figure, which is supposed to represent the rise or fall in the cost of living four times per year, has nothing to do with the expense it is to an old age pensioner to try to maintain himself, because in that cost of living index figure, there are not alone food and rent but various other things which are supposed to make up the cost of living. These things have no bearing whatsoever on the way of life of the old age pensioner, the widow, the person on the dole or the blind person.

The old age pensioner, the blind person, the widow and the orphan and the unfortunate man on the dole are concerned with only three things. They are concerned with the price of food, with the cost of their rent and with the cost of clothing. As regards tobacco, drink, the price of newspapers and all the other things that are in the cost of living index figure, he does not care a jot for them because he could never afford them. The last time I spoke on a similar motion I said that while the ordinary cost of living had gone up by 12 per cent., at the same period, the cost of food, rent and clothing had gone up something like 20 per cent. Therefore none of us need pat himself on the back and say we have compensated the old age pensioner for the increase in the cost of living over the past five, six or ten years.

I know it would take a fair amount to give these increases. That is a point the Parliamentary Secretary made before. He will quote to me, I am sure, as he has quoted before, the total amount required to give 2/6, 5/- 10/- or 15/- to an old age pensioner. I know it is a colossal sum. It is a formidable sum but there is also the formidable responsibility placed on the community to look after the aged. We must make the effort and if people have to make sacrifices, it should be brought home to them that they are making sacrifices for people who are not wasters, who are not just looking for charity but who merely want to live a normal life and to live the normal span of life.

When we think and talk about money, we should add up all the small amounts of money this Dáil and this Government passed for this, that and the other project. It may be said: "We shall pass this project"; "We shall give this grant and that grant—it is only about £15,000.""For this venture, we shall allocate another £500,000." Any Minister for Finance or Minister for Social Welfare may well say: "That would not give an old age pensioner an increase of a farthing." We know that but it all adds up. These sacrifices added up could in time reach a figure that could give justice to the people for whom we plead tonight.

We are concerned about tuberculosis in cattle. We are concerned with the growing of Irish wheat. We are concerned about tourism. We are concerned about the foreigner coming in here to spend money and generally to amuse himself. All these things cost this country millions of pounds. I shall not take the Government to task in relation to the question of bovine T.B. eradication. We realise its importance to the country. However, the Minister for Agriculture blandly announced at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis, or some place down the country, that this year we are spending £5,500,000 to eradicate T.B. in cattle and will spend more next year and the year after. Granted one cannot make an absolute comparison, but we can get that sort of money year after year for that kind of project and it is only every three or four years we become bountiful and say: "Here is another 2/6 for the old age pensioner."

I have not seen a gleam of hope nor have I heard a hopeful word from this Government since they came back to office in March, 1957, so far as social assistance recipients are concerned. We are paying £17 million for health services and £24.5 million for social assistance and social welfare benefits. This is mentioned any time one refers to this question. It all boils down to one thing: the person on the dole who cannot get employment in the rural area gets 13/- per week and the old age pensioner who has worked all his life for this country and who has incidentally worked for himself can get only 27/6 a week at 70 years of age.

This is not a condemnation of any particular Party; it is a condemnation of the whole community. We want to see some initiative shown by the Government and by the Parliamentary Secretary by way of giving hope to these people that there will be some scheme, that there will be some money available in order to ensure that in future we shall not be ashamed of the small amount of social assistance we handed out individually to these people week after week for many years gone by.

The second part of the motion talks about insurance benefits. I do not see the great difficulty there. If the Minister makes the case that we spend so many millions, £20,000,000, on social assistance, as it is very desirable that we should do, I do not think we can make the same case against an increase in insurance benefits. We may have been lagging behind to the extent that we have not yet provided insurance schemes not so much to provide against blindness, as to provide for all the widows and orphans or all those people who may be rendered widows and orphans, an insurance scheme for all those who cannot labour any more when they come to the age of 65 or 70; but we have the scheme so far as social insurance is concerned. We have the scheme whereby a worker pays one-third into the fund, the employer pays one-third and the State pays the remaining one-third, or whatever sum is required from year to year.

The last increase to these people was given about the Fall of 1956. People in receipt of sickness benefit, unemployment benefit and widows' and orphans' contributory pensions got an increase of 25 per cent. That compensated for a past increase in the cost of living but there has been a 12 point increase in the cost of living since August 1956.

I suggest that inasmuch as there is a scheme and that the workers do not object to paying a little more, nor do the employers, the State should also face up to its responsibilities and give an increase that would compensate to the extent of the full 12 points. The sooner we attach these benefits to the actual cost of living—I am talking specifically about insurance benefits— the better. We found, over the years, that the payments to these people have lagged behind. It is only after five, six or ten years that we have given them an increase but it is not sufficient to compensate them for their losses in the intervening period. There have been increases in food prices—naturally Fianna Fáil know that better than anybody because it was their 1957 Budget proposals to abolish the food subsidies which made tea, bread and butter much dearer. The Parliamentary Secretary knows that house rents have increased—I allege on the direction of the Minister for Local Government. There have been all these increases and life has become much more difficult for people who find themselves dependent on social insurance at the present time.

There is another big item of expense that usually has not been taken into account—medical expenses. The attitude of the Minister for Health and the officers of the local authorities with regard to giving out medical service cards has resulted in many more people incurring much more expense than prior to the inauguration of the present health scheme. Apart from anything else, if we were, for the sake of argument, to say that everybody who should have a medical service card has one, there may be a period when people become ill, even say for two or three weeks, during which they are not granted a card. Some of the assistance officers are reluctant to give them the temporary medical service card and these unfortunate people find, because of the way the health scheme is administered, that they are required in those two or three weeks— during which they are, perhaps, suffering from influenza or tonsilitis—to pay 10/- to a dispensary doctor or pay for drugs which they may require. These are additional expenses for which they have not been compensated. They are reflected in the cost of living since August, 1956.

We have not much experience of it in rural areas but bus fares have been increased in Dublin. That increase must be borne by people mentioned in this motion, from old age pensioners down to people in receipt of insurance benefits. It was a further smack in the face for people on social assistance and people in receipt of social insurance to hear the Taoiseach blandly state, in the speech he made in Oxford recently on Partition, that if the people of the Six Counties decided to join with us in a Thirty-two County Republic they would lose nothing in social welfare benefits. Very laudable indeed but there is a very hollow ring in it when one remembers the old age pensions, the sickness benefit and the unemployment benefit given in the North and what is given here.

Would it not have been far better for the Taoiseach to pledge himself, the Government and Irish people, when speaking at Oxford, in a statement to the effect, not that those people in the Six Counties would lose no benefits, but that in a short time the people in the Twenty-Six Counties would enjoy benefits comparable with those paid at present in the Six Counties or in Great Britain? But in his speech he said he recognised that these were adequate. We suggest that it would have been far better for him to pledge himself and the Government to make an effort to see that our social welfare benefits and social assistance were improved, and greatly improved, quickly.

The attitude has been: "We are doing well enough when we give them an increase now and again". It reminds one of a hungry dog. It will equal when hungry but we throw it a crust or an old bone and that keeps it quiet for a while. The 1/6d. or 2/6d. keeps the man on the dole quiet for a while but then there is an agitation and people write to the newspapers and say that the treatment of old age pensioners is scandalous. The public also have a responsibility in making that clamour count in order to induce Governments, and particularly this Government, to give them more.

I am always appalled at the attitude of the Minister for Social Welfare with regard to all these benefits and with regard to—I do not want to pursue it here—his attitude to health services. On one occasion I heard Deputy Sherwin ask the Minister, would he consider that the disabled person's maintenance allowance of £1 was sufficient to keep that person for a week. The Minister for Social Welfare just folded up the file wherein he had the information and sat down saying: "It is not too bad from other people's pockets." I heard him say that in this House, that £1 for the man who is disabled, the man who cannot work, is £1 from other people's pockets. We have a duty to all these people whether they are blind, disabled, or old. If that is the attitude of the Government—the attitude displayed by the Minister for Social Welfare—I am afraid we cannot expect much improvement. I commend this motion to the House and to the Government. I hope that the House will unanimously agree that the people mentioned in this motion deserve more assistance and that that assistance should be granted to them immediately.

I support this motion, and, like my colleague, Deputy Corish, I would draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to the statement of the Taoiseach in the course of his Oxford Union speech. In doing so, perhaps it may be well to quote one short paragraph from a booklet National Insurance Fund—National Insurance (Reserve) Fund—Accounts 1957-58 presented to the Parliament of Northern Ireland, and dated 27th January, 1959. The last paragraph states:—

The National Insurance (No. 2) Act (N.I.), 1957, increased the rates of all benefits from dates in January and February, 1958. For example, injury benefit and full disablement benefit for adults were raised from 67s. 6d. to 85s. a week, and widow's allowance from 55s. to 70s.

I wonder did the Taoiseach have in mind such a position, and I wonder does the Parliamentary Secretary consider the position in regard to the services being offered just a short distance from the capital of the Twenty-Six Counties?

It may also be well at this stage to direct particular attention to the answer to a Question in this Chamber today. The Question asked for the weekly cost of food and of clothing and bedding in certain institutions in the Twenty-Six Counties. The answer stated that in one hospital in County Louth the cost of food per week amounts to 14/8½, and clothing and bedding to 1/2 per week per inmate. In another institution in Louth, it amounts to 19/6½ per week for food, and 1/5½ per week for clothing. In County Meath, about which the Parliamentary Secretary should be well informed, the cost of food amounts to 23/11 per inmate per week, and the cost of clothing and bedding to 1/9 per week. In many other hospitals, as stated in the reply, it costs about £1, or a little over it, to maintain an inmate.

Of course, the cost of food in all these instances is the cost of food in a large institution, and that averages out from 18/- to £1, and in some cases, a little more. In some instances, clothing and bedding work out at 5/3, and that must bring home to us the fact that if it costs so much for food per inmate in a large institution, the cost to an old age pensioner, in his or her own home, even with the full allowance of 27/6 per week, must be more. What then of the widows and the children of widows, and what of the man depending on unemployment assistance, as mentioned by Deputy Corish? Surely these figures are a clear indication that if any claim should be considered by the Government at present, it is the claim in this motion for increased benefits for these people?

As I have often said in this House, no Government since the 1920's has shown much liberality to these people. We admit that. As Deputy Corish has stated, the increases over the years have been just steps, though perhaps steps in the right direction; but when we consider the financial benefits bestowed on these people, these increases at all times were but a drop in the ocean compared with Government expenditure in other directions. A lot of money can be provided for other services and, therefore, it is not too much to ask that fair consideration be given to these people who at this stage are entitled, not to the privilege, but to the justice that should be theirs under an Irish Government.

The Parliamentary Secretary may say that an old age pension is only a contribution or a grant-in-aid, but he knows as well as I do that an old age pensioner is entitled, not to charity, but to Christian justice. If Lloyd George and a British Government found it suitable to accord the Irish people some measure of fair play, in return for the services they had given, even to an alien Government—5/- and 10/- prior to 1920—we must admit that our present grant-in-aid shows an utter disregard for fair play for old age pensioners. They are in the winter of their lives and they now ask us for some small return to help them through their remaining years. We can bestow large increases of 10 per cent. or 15 per cent. on our judges and other officers of State. They may be entitled to these increases but these increases differ immensely from what the Parliamentary Secretary wishes us to consider as a grant-in-aid for old age pensioners.

I do not wish to hold the House too long in dealing with this motion. I do not see why we should have to delay long with it. It would not be necessary at all if we had been able to keep in line with the cost of living through increases to the old age pensioners, the widows and blind persons, but I am sorry to say that irrespective of what Government have been in power, we have not done so. It cannot be offered as an excuse that the finance is not available. As I have already said, finance has been made available in many other instances.

In reference to this matter today, the Parliamentary Secretary said something to the effect that these increases might not be worth a threepenny bit. I give credit to the many members of the Fianna Fáil organisation who gathered from different parts of the country in the past two days and raised their voices on behalf of the old, the blind and the widows. If they realise that fair play is not being given to these sections why is there a defence of the present system under which the increase which they should get is denied to them? We are asking only for a just measure of fair play for the recipients of these benefits. I do not wish to dwell any longer on this: I do not see why it should be necessary. In view of the recent statement of the Taoiseach at Oxford and in view of the reply given in answer to this question here today showing that, in justice, these people are entitled to these increases, I would ask that the Government give these people what they are entitled to.

We, in the Fine Gael Party, strongly support this motion is so far as it is directed towards easing the lot of the aged, the blind, the widows and orphans. In company with a great number of people outside the House, we feel that this is one of the pressing problems of the moment. It transcends politics. There must be in both Dáil and Seanad members who are daily brought close to the problems affecting these people. Any Deputy who is a member of a local authority, or indeed any member of the House who even occasionally meets his constituents, must quite frequently be reminded of the dire circumstances of very many old and disabled people. We must realise that this is reflected in the additional attention that charitable organisations feel they must give to easing the lot of many of these unfortunate people. We must all agree that money has greatly reduced in value and when we think in terms of what £1 can buy today—not in luxuries but in necessaries—we must concede that these are the classes most seriously affected by the increase in the cost of the necessaries of life.

Like Deputy Corish, I would wish not to rely on the cost-of-living figures because we know that these figures include many classes of goods and services which are not applicable to the people with such limited incomes as old age pensioners, widows or blind persons. When the drastic decision was taken to withdraw completely the subsidisation of food, we knew what the impact would be on these classes. Some moderate assistance was given by way of increased benefits, but can anybody contend here that the pittance given was sufficient to make it possible for these people to buy the same amount of food as they did when prices were much lower? What classes in the community mainly depend on bread, butter, tea and sugar? Is it not the people in the lower-income groups, the people who rely on such benefits as the State seems obliged to give them to enable them to exist? Are those not the people who rely on bread, flour, tea and butter for three meals a day?

When the Government decided to withdraw the food subsidies, they found subsequently that they had to heed the demand of people in the middle classes and of some people with substantial incomes because of the impact on them of the increased cost of living. The local authorities and private employers were also so conscious of their obligations that they gave salary and wage increases to meet the fresh demand on the workers' pockets. Surely that was an admission of the impact of the increase in the cost of necessaries of life? Many people who are compensated—perhaps not in whole, but in part—for that increase in the cost of living are people enjoying meat three times a day. Can we say that a man who has bacon and egg in the morning, meat at lunch and possibly dinner in the evening is very concerned about the price of bread, of half a stone of flour or of butter? Surely it is the man or woman who depends on the little that, so far, unfortunately we have seen fit to give them who are really hit by that drastic, dramatic and, for them, tragic increase in the cost of living?

It was considered and indeed represented to the people that the withdrawal of the food subsidies would be reflected in some reduced expenditure. That has not happened. Bearing that in mind, can we not now examine the impact of the increase on the people towards whom this motion is directed with a view to alleviating their lot? Surely no Deputy can argue that these people have received any measure of compensation comparable with the increased cost of their normal necessaries of life. The cost of running institutions of State has been increased. Many of these institutions are doing marvellous work in looking after the aged and disabled, those who have no one to depend on and who are compelled to take up residence in such institutions. Because of the higher cost of running these institutions, the authorities, against their own desires, have been forced to demand a higher proportion of the residents' pensions in order to keep up these institutions. We know of the increase also in the cost of simple luxuries but this motion is not now directed towards the old age pensioner who may enjoy a pipe of tobacco or a very occasional bottle of stout. We realise that less is left to them of their pensions when the institutions, naturally, had to increase their demands for the cost of their food and maintenance.

In the past, the State was careful in many instances when legislation was brought in giving increases, to protect various people among the classes concerned from the enactment of anything that would worsen their lot but we all know in our constituencies people in receipt of military service pensions or special allowances who actually suffered a reduction in their special allowances by a sum greater than they received in the old age pension because, although one's own pension is not taken into account in the means test, the pension of the spouse must be taken into account. Surely when the Government bring in a measure to increase the allowances in some way, it is directed towards actually increasing them and not to producing something that under the regulations is twisted into a reduction in their income.

When the Government are considering this matter, as they will be forced to do by public opinion, they should bear that in mind and remember that when increases were given, Ministers of State received the increases in full, while unfortunate men and women advanced in years down the country could not avail of them because of the factors to which I have referred in regard to means. Far from there being an easement in the situation of these people in recent years, we say sincerely, not making any charges that cannot be sustained, there appears to be, if anything, a more stringent application of the means test. I know a number of widows whose means have not changed in recent years and yet their pensions were withdrawn. Having regard to the circumstances through which our people have been going in recent times, I suggest that they require attention. I fail to see, in the atmosphere of giving increases to various classes of our people, how the strict application of the means test in these instances can be supported.

When a previous Government were in office, something completely outside the control of that Government brought about certain increased charges on the necessaries of life for these people. There was an increase in the price of tea, but the Government of the day were so conscious of the impact of the price of even that commodity, which is far from being the most essential of the necessaries these people have to purchase that they gave at Christmas time a double payment which adequately compensated the recipient for the entire year's cost.

That was consideration. It did not cost a whole lot. In recent times, this Government have been asked in present circumstances to cushion these people against the impact of the increased cost of living by making a similar concession, but we still have no indication that any serious consideration is given to doing so or that there is any intention of doing so. I urge on the Government that, pending any legislation to give the increases, for which there is an unanswerable case, they should immediately make arrangements, which are so simple from the administrative viewpoint, to see that a double payment is given to these unfortunate people this Christmas.

No doubt the Parliamentary Secretary can provide the House with figures relating to what the cost would be to the Exchequer and the country of acceding in any way to the request embodied in this motion. Yet when one meets people outside, one realises that this is a problem about which very many people are perturbed. I think that, notwithstanding the logical and strong case for keeping a careful watch on Government expenditure, this is something in which the Government would have the support of the vast majority of our people because they feel that these are classes who are very poorly equipped to meet the demands of present-day life. I think the Government would have the support of the whole people if they could divert some of the finances of the State to an immediate alleviation of the plight of these people.

This afternoon at Question Time, a Minister of State—he was quite within his rights—could not state whether a particular project in the south of Ireland received £3 million, £4 million or £5 million. Where did that money come from? It came from the same source as that from which the money would come to meet these increases. The Parliamentary Secretary will be in a position, when he replies, to indicate the £. s. d. involved for the State if they were to meet what is proposed in this motion, but another Minister can sit back and refuse to give information and leave everybody in the dark in relation to the extent of expenditure in another sphere.

We must be fair all round and ensure that there are not people in our community who suffer dire distress in these days. It is for that reason that we in the Fine Gael Party are supporting this motion, with particular reference to the old age pensioners, widows and orphans and blind people. I recall an occasion when a motion similar in terms to the present one was defeated and the Minister at the time said it would be impossible for the State to find the £250,000 which was all that was involved at that time. Yet within 12 months, it was possible for another Government to find that money. Since then, further increases have been given even by the Party in office in order to ease the burden on these people. These are the circumstances in which this motion is now being discussed.

While it must be conceded that, perhaps, the attention of the House may be diverted to the legitimate claims of other people, if we were to place them in the order of priority, at the head of this queue must come the people mentioned in this motion. If the State can find the money to satisfy the demands of other classes, they must give precedence to the unanswerable demands of the people mentioned here this evening.

Just at this time, the people's sympathy and consideration are being excited in relation to the pitiable plight of refugees all over the world. No doubt the Irish people will respond to that appeal with the same generosity and sympathy as they have always extended to people in distress, but surely we cannot in this year deny to our own people, many of whom are not in any better plight, the right to seek some support during this universal effort to help distressed people in other parts of the world. We are asking the Government to look first at our own people and see how they exist having regard to the high cost of the necessaries of life and realise that it is incumbent upon us to do something for these people who have first charge on us.

There are many people in the country who criticise, and with some reason, the present system of applying a means test in relation to old age pensions. They feel that there are arguments which can be advanced for seriously considering the abolition of such means test. But even though there are very many exponents of that point of view, we must sit back until such time as those people who are classified as being in the very lower income class have got something to assist them. Then the wider issue of modifying or wiping out the means test can be considered.

It is in these circumstances that we feel we can support this motion. We feel that there really does not exist any comparable demand on the Government by any section with such a legitimate case as the people who are trying to live today in face of the dramatic increase in the cost of every necessary of life. We appeal to the Government to consider this motion and provide the ways and means to give increases to these classes, not that they may have comfort, but that at least they will be spared the privation which exists among some and which could exist among more unless some step is taken to alleviate their position at the first possible moment.

If this motion does nothing else but indicate to the country the change of heart on the part of the Fine Gael Party, so ably put by Deputy O'Sullivan, and the Labour Party also, it will have served a very useful purpose. It is not so very long ago—it is within the memory of many Deputies present here—that old age pensions were reduced by the Party that now pretend to be prepared to give their life's blood for the old age pensioners. It is not very long ago that the Labour Party were in the box seat. The present Leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Norton, was then Tánaiste and Minister for Social Welfare and was for three long years in office and, although he did promise an increase in social benefits, I have yet to see what they amounted to. As far as the old age pensioners were concerned they were almost infinitesimal.

This motion is unnecessary while the Fianna Fáil Government are in power because, every time the nation's resources are sufficient, Deputies can be quite sure that the first people they will think of will be the old age pensioners, the disabled persons and the widows and orphans. The Fianna Fáil Party were the first in the world to introduce non-contributory widows' pensions. Others have copied. We thank God for that and every Irishman should be very proud of the fact that the Fianna Fáil Party Government of some years ago gave that great example. As a result, widows, instead of having to go to the home assistance officer who, more often than not, would meet them with a scowl, can go to the post office and get the widow's pension. No longer are they reduced to poverty-stricken circumstances and asked to be paupers in the eyes of the public. That is something of which we are very proud.

The actual reduction in the old age pension some years ago was not the most serious element of that act. The alteration of the means test to the detriment of the claimant was a matter of which the Party responsible will always be ashamed. The amendment introduced by Fianna Fáil in 1932 was one of the redeeming acts that put paid to the terrible hardships inflicted on old age pensioners up to that date and, in 1952, again to the credit of Fianna Fáil, the old age pensioners were taken off their knees. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us the increase in the number of people in receipt of old age pensions today as a result of the alteration of the means test in 1952.

In 1928 the means test was altered by a reduction in the ceiling level from £49 10s. to £39 10s. and in the floor level from £26 to £15 12s. 6d. That is what Fianna Fáil had to undo. That was one of the many tasks they had before them. The various Pensions Acts of 1908, 1920, 1924, 1928, were amended by Fianna Fáil and if old age pensioners are enjoying even frugal comfort they may thank benevolent, conscientious Fianna Fáil Governments.

There is another very important aspect of the old age pension code. I should like to see the code recast. I hope it will be recast. Deputy O'Sullivan referred, and rightly so, to people in charitable institutions. They were deprived at one time of their right to retain the old age pension and on admission to a county home their old age pension automatically ceased. Again, Fianna Fáil came to the rescue of those poor people who were destined to end their lives in such institutions. Thank God, since the advent of Fianna Fáil to power, the old age pensioners who go into a county home are entitled to the maximum old age pension. These things are forgotten by many people.

What about the mental hospitals?

People who go voluntarily into mental hospitals are fully entitled to the old age pension.

What about those who do not go in voluntarily?

Such people are not capable of claiming. I wish they were.

What about the local authorities who have to keep them?

Deputy Davern on the motion.

The local authority takes a certain amount from the old age pensioners. Deputy Kyne as a member of a local authority knows that local authorities find it difficult to secure money and that the rates have benefited very substantially by the fact that old age pensioners are now able to contribute in a generous way towards their support and upkeep in the county homes. One of the great things that happened under the 1952 Act is that the people who go voluntarily into mental homes are fully entitled to maximum pension.

Under Section 7 of the Act of 1924, if a small farmer transferred his farm to his son on the occasion of a marriage within three years before or at any time after he became entitled to the old age pension and either before or after the passing of that Act, such property was calculated for the purpose of the means test. The Act was amended with the result that farmers who so transfer their property are now fully entitled to the pension. Since 1952, where the valuation of a farm does not exceed £30, whether there is a transfer to a single or to a married son or daughter, farmers are fully entitled to the pension. Again they can thank Fianna Fáil for that steady advance. The 1952 Act provided something which was not provided in any other Act. Instead of reducing the old age pension and altering the means test to the detriment of claimants, as was done by Fine Gael, the Fianna Fáil Government, in 1952, made the most extraordinary alteration in the means test, something that even the most optimistic person never thought would happen or could happen. The ceiling of £52.10s. was raised to £104.10s. and the floor level was raised to £52.10s.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 12th November, 1959.
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