Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Mar 1960

Vol. 180 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Posts and Telegraphs.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Hilliard)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1960, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (45 & 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 & 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; the Telegraph Acts. 1863 to 1953; No. 45 of 1926; No. 14 of 1940 (secs. 30 and 31); No. 14 of 1942 (sec. 23); No. 17 of 1951; etc.), of certain other Services administered by that Office, and of the Television Advisory Committee.

When the Government decided that a television service should be established under a single public Authority to be set up to control both sound and television broadcasting, it decided also that the arrangements for the provision of buildings, the supply of equipment for television studios and the transmitter station for the Dublin area, and for the acquisition of sites for transmitters outside Dublin should be put in hand immediately. This was to ensure that the proposed new Broadcasting Authority would be in a position to begin television broadcasts, and proceed to provide a national system, as soon as possible.

I set up a small Advisory Committee consisting of persons who will later be invited with others to become members of the Broadcasting Authority, to advise and assist me in arranging these matters. The Committee has been functioning since the 11th September. With its advice and assistance, arrangements are in hand for the provision of the transmitter station and studios in the Dublin area and for the provision of the radio link between them. The acquisition of sites for four transmitting stations outside Dublin is in train.

Television, like telephones, telex and radio, is basically a form of telegraphy, and general consideration of any new development in this field falls within the scope of the Telegraph Acts 1863 to 1953. Doubt is felt, however, whether expenditure in respect of the committee, which is concerned solely with the provision of a television service, comes within the ambit of this year's Vote for Posts and Telegraphs. Accordingly, a Supplementary Estimate is being introduced. Expenditure incurred so far has been met by an advance by the Minister for Finance from the Contingency Fund which it is intended to repay from the Vote for Posts and Telegraphs. A gross provision of £1,000 is being made, but as savings of £990 are available on other Subheads of the Vote, only a nett £10 is required.

The members of the Committee do not receive remuneration for their work but are paid travelling and subsistence expenses. The provision is mainly to cover such expenses. In addition, it will cover miscellaneous expenditure on technical advice, on entertainment, etc., arising out of the work of the Committee.

Mr. Palmer

As the sum asked for is small because of the savings referred to, I do not think it is necessary to dwell too long on this Supplementary Estimate. However, I should like the Minister to tell us, if he can, how many members are on this Advisory Committee. I should like to know also how the savings totalling £990 were made.

In connection with the setting up of these transmitters for the television service, the one at Kippure mountain will be the first to be put into operation. It is stated there will be four others in various parts of the country. I assume it will take a very long time before these transmitters are set up in rural areas and particularly in remote areas in Kerry and Cork. It will be a source of disappointment to people in remote areas that they will not have the service at the same time as it is being established in the eastern counties and in the city of Dublin. Perhaps it would be well—I do not know exactly how it would work out —if the television service did not come into operation until it was possible to extend it throughout the whole country. There may be reasons why that would not be advisable and I should like the Minister to give his views on that.

Mr. Dillon

There is one specific point I want to raise on this Estimate. Perhaps I might be permitted to say by way of introduction that I can imagine what would be said in Dáil Eireann if the Minister were in these benches and I presented a Supplementary Estimate for £1,000, one of the items of which was entertainment. I can imagine the howls from the Fianna Fáil benches about the profligate distribution of public money on unsuitable entertainment. However, I forbear from the comment because I am sure that any expenditure under that head which is vouched for by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs will be properly spent.

There is a matter on which I should like a categorical assurance from the Minister. He says that he has set up a small advisory committee consisting of persons who will later be invited to become members of the broadcasting Authority. May I take it as certain that the customary rule applies to membership of this broadcasting Authority, that is, that any person who is a member of it can have no business relationships with it? That rule is well established in the United States of America. It is fully recognised in respect of all local authorities in this country and, of course, Ministers of State, on taking office, are required to resign any directorships they may have and divorce themselves from business interests. Any of us in this House who intervene in a debate on a specific matter in which we have a direct business interest are, at least by custom, expected to declare that interest before addressing the House.

I should like a specific undertaking from the Minister that no member of the advisory committee, or of the broadcasting Authority, will be allowed to have business relationships of any kind with the Authority of which he is a member and that the Minister proposes to provide that if such a relationship is established, that will automatically disqualify that person from continuing to be a member of the Authority. Any other arrangement, I conceive, would cause a grave scandal and possibly generate abuse.

Mr. McQuillan

I should like to raise a point in connection with the question of savings under other heads, which the Minister has mentioned. I think we have not got our list of priorities properly sorted out, particularly in connection with the installation of telephonic communication. It is a well-known fact that it is quite a simple and speedy matter at any time to get a connection between the city of Dublin and any part of Great Britain —London, Manchester or Glasgow. It is a different matter altogether for somebody in rural Ireland to get in telephonic communication with a town perhaps 15 or 20 miles away. I want to know whether there is a hold-up in regard to the expenditure on telephonic equipment.

Acting Chairman (Mr. MacCarthy)

May I interrupt the Deputy for a moment? That does not come within the scope of the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. McQuillan

It is as much within the scope as what has been mentioned.

Acting Chairman (Mr. MacCarthy)

Under Standing Orders, savings may not be debated on a Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. McQuillan

May I suggest, Sir, that perhaps I should put it this way? If instead of savings the Supplementary Estimate were for the purpose of making more money available to ensure that the list of priorities will be properly balanced, the Minister would come in here to extract money from the taxpayer in order to speed up the laying of cables and extra wiring and so on, to close the gap as between the speed of communications in rural Ireland in comparison with the pitch of perfection in the system of communications between Dublin and cross-channel

I had on a number of occasions to contact the Minister's Department in regard to people in a particular locality who wished to make a telephone call between points A and B, a distance of seven miles in one case and 14 in——

Acting Chairman (Mr. Sheldon)

Telephone calls do not appear on this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. McQuillan

The Chairman was definitely on the phone to someone——

Acting Chairman

Just to the Deputy.

Mr. McQuillan

——because of the speed with which he has entered into this. However, the Minister knows what I have in mind. I think that apart altogether from the question of the desirability of setting up television and the expenses incurred by the body which is making the necessary arrangements it is somewhat peculiar, to say the least of it, that people cannot have telephone communications in areas in rural Ireland, while, at the same time, the Minister is prepared to spend money for the purpose of giving amusement to these people while they are waiting to make telephone calls.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I intend to be very brief on this matter and the reason I intend to be brief is that I consider that the economies effected in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs have not added to the efficiency of the Department. We noted from the Minister's address in presenting this Supplementary Estimate that he referred to the setting up of a television station and an Authority. While money is being provided for that purpose, there have been economies in regard to the main workings of the Department.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Sheldon)

I want to make it clear to the Deputy that the main activities of the Department are not relevant to the debate, whether there are savings or not.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I agree, but I should like to convey this to the Minister, through the Chair, that the moneys provided under this Supplementary Estimate for the setting up of the television station have been the cause of considerable disappointment in my constituency. I understand that quite a detailed and thorough investigation was carried out in an area known as Croghan Hill in Offaly. It was genuinely believed, in relation to the selection of the site for a television station, that the district around Croghan Hill contained in its soil a certain electrical mineral which rendered it a most suitable site, if not a far more suitable site than that already selected. I would ask the Minister to consult with his advisers who have recommended to him the selection of the particular site for the setting up of the television station, and to ask in what circumstances, and why, the site at Croghan Hill, Offaly, was not considered.

The Minister has also made observations with regard to the advisory committee he has appointed. The duties of that Committee are to advise the Minister on matters relating to the setting up, and the running, of the television station in general. I wonder is the Minister aware of the fact that it is believed that certain undertakings have been given to Mr. Eamonn Andrews. I do not use the name of Mr. Andrews in this House with any degree of disrespect, but with the greatest admiration. I feel that if any undertakings between the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and Mr. Andrews have been given, this House should be made aware of them. I understand there have been quite a number of long and detailed conferences between the Minister and Mr. Andrews. That must be expected from one to whom credit must be given of having some experience of television and its management. Nevertheless, if any guarantee, or promises, or undertakings, have been given to Mr. Andrews, I feel that the House should be made aware of them.

It is only right that the Minister should be made aware of the fact that there is a considerable amount of gossip, which may be well-founded, in circulation in this city and elsewhere. I do not know what instances Deputy Dillon had in mind when he made his observations this evening, but I would go a step further, and sound a note of warning to the Minister, that if we are to go ahead with the setting up of a television station, an opportunity must be given to members of this House, either on an Estimate such as this which provides money for such works, or on another occasion, to discuss the matter. I trust that the warning which has already been given by the Leader of the Opposition, with regard to any benefits that may be derived by members of the Committee, or of the Authority to be set up, will be very seriously considered by the Minister and the Government.

I am endeavouring to make my position on what I have to say, as clear as possible. If a large amount of money provided by this House is to be put in the way of relatives of members of the committee, who may be given certain work by way of contract, surely this House should take the necessary steps to ensure that there will not be any collusion or intrigue with regard to the giving of sub-contracts, whether electrical or otherwise, connected with television. It is no harm for me to come bluntly to the point. There are certain interests with which Mr. Andrews may be indirectly connected in respect of the general promotion and operation of a business, such as the setting up of television. It is only right, before anything does take place, or before Mr. Andrews has received a permanent appointment, that somebody in this House should sound a note of warning to him and to every other member of the Board, or the Committee already appointed, that if we have any evidence that contracts will be placed by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs with certain individuals who might have family connections, or be closely connected with the Committee which will advise the Minister on this matter, a very serious view will be taken in this House. A very close eye is being kept, even at the present time, on the progress and development which is taking place in that regard.

Mr. Moher

Another Skibberreen Eagle.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I do not wish to raise anything in this House that might give rise to suspicion. I make these observations having in my possession certain information. I am only waiting until certain contracts are placed in connection with this television station, and if the people about whom I have information secure the contracts, I shall then be in a position to place in the hands of the Minister this information which I now have.

The Minister may be prepared to take the advice of Mr. Andrews, who has a sound judgment of television, and his colleagues on matters relating to the administration of television and the programmes, but if the advice of those gentlemen is to be taken on the giving of contracts for electrical work or other sub-contracts, and if the contracts are placed within a certain range of family relations, there are members of this House who are prepared to leave nothing undone to ensure that the taxpayers' money is spent wisely and well and with a degree of honesty. That is the only note of warning I want to sound to the Minister on the Estimate he has presented to the House.

There are many Deputies who have dealt more ably than I could with this matter on the Bill at present before the House dealing with the setting up of the broadcasting Authority and with which I have not yet finished. I rose to speak to sound a note of warning to the Minister, and to express the hope that a degree fair play and honesty will be exercised in the giving of contracts, in the placing of sub-contracts, and in whatever work is to be undertaken in connection with the broadcasting Authority to which the Minister referred.

Mr. Hilliard

Deputy Palmer asked me how many persons were appointed on this Committee, and I wish to tell him that four people were appointed, with Mr. Eamonn Andrews as Chairman. The Committee was purely an advisory committee on technical matters in connection with the establishment of a television service. We were very fortunate to obtain the services of Mr. Eamonn Andrews for this assignment. He is a man of international repute in the television world. He has acquired knowledge in that matter which in itself is a very valuable contribution to the decisions being taken in connection with the establishment here of a television service.

The savings which make up this Vote are from the general current account of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. They do not apply in any way to the capital account of the Department.

Deputy McQuillan dealt with the provision of capital services but it is a separate matter entirely. Deputy Palmer expected me to itemise the savings. I regret it would not be possible at such short notice to do so.

In so far as this Estimate provides for entertainment, I wish to inform the House that it provides for an item of entertainment already paid for which amounted to £8 13s. It was to give entertainment to a technical adviser who came into this country, on invitation by me, free, gratis and for nothing, without any payment for his services, in connection with the drawings and the provision of the studio building on the Montrose site.

In so far as the site at Croghan Hill is concerned, mentioned by Deputy O. J. Flanagan, it is news to me that at any time Croghan Hill was considered as a site for good transmission. It is the first I heard of it.

A survey was made in 1956-57 by Radio Éireann or the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in connection with the establishment or proposed establishment of V.H.F. transmission for the sound broadcasting service. The members of that survey committee, the people concerned, selected certain sites for that purpose. Incidentally, they happen to be the sites recommended to me as the sites suitable for television broadcasts.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Would the Minister be prepared even at this late stage to examine the Croghan Hill site?

Mr. Hilliard

I have to rely entirely on the technical advice given to me. The sites are already selected. They are the sites from which I am advised the best possible service can be provided for the whole country.

In so far as the membership of the Committee is concerned—their relationship with outside businesses or firms which are likely to have contracts with the Authority itself—that matter is provided for in Section 8 of the Bill. When we come to discuss Section 8 of the Bill on Committee Stage, we can have a full debate on that matter. I do not think it would be in order, even if I so desired, to deal fully with that section on this Estimate. I should prefer to leave it over, if that will suit the Leader of the Opposition, until we discuss the matter on the Committee Stage of the Bill.

Deputy Dillon knows as well as I do what Section 8 is and what it provides for. I feel it takes adequate measures to deal with a situation such as he has in mind. Before the members of the Authority are appointed, I feel certain the Government will go fully into their standing in relation to any outside commitments they may have with firms in ordinary business. I feel certain they will have to satisfy themselves that each member measures up to the requirements for membership of such an Authority.

Vote put and agreed to.

Mr. Dillon

I hope the Minister appreciates our delicate courtesy in this matter?

Mr. Hilliard

I do and I am happy to acknowledge it.

Supplementary and Additional Estimates agreed to in Committee to be reported.

Supplementary and Additional Estimates Nos. 1, 35, 37, 45, 46, 49, 54, 55, 57, 69, 63, 64 and 70 reported and agreed to.