Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Mar 1960

Vol. 180 No. 7

Adjournment Debate. - Castletownbere Pier.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I regret to have to raise the subject matter of Question No. 30 on the adjournment tonight, but in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's replies to a series of questions to date I have no alternative. This question related to the proposal to errect a pier at Castletownbere, County Cork. I need scarcely remind the House that Castletownbere is one of the major harbours in southern Ireland, and the condition of the existing pier has been engaging the attention of many people for some time. The local fishermen and others using the pier have again and again expressed the opinion that it is likely to collapse, that it is unsuitable for reconstruction and that the only thing to be done is to demolish it and erect a new one. In order to secure approval for that contention the fishermen and the other local people who use the pier have approached various public representatives and also the Minister's Department asking for early approval for their scheme.

This matter has also been discussed on various occasions by the local authority, Cork County Council. They were of the opinion that it would be more satisfactory to erect a new pier rather than reconstruct the old one. With that view in mind I addressed a question to the former Minister for Lands, Deputy Childers, on the 4th June, 1959. I called the Minister's attention to the state of this pier and to the many representations made by local parties and indeed by foreign agencies as well, because I would remind the Minister at this stage that not only is this pier used by many local people but it is also used by foreign trawlers from France and Spain. The Minister at that time was of the opinion that the existing pier could be renovated and he indicated he would communicate with Cork County Council on the matter.

As a result the Cork County Council received a report from their technical advisers that it was essential to do something with Castletownbere pier immediately. If the council were to carry out improvements or reconstruction a sum of some £4,900 would be necessary, and it was made quite clear that the expenditure of that amount of money would only do a very small job of work, which would not last very long and would be entirely a temporary measure. The members of the council, having examined this question closely and diligently, and having had further technical advice, decided it would be a waste of public money to spend almost £5,000 on the reconstruction of this pier when their technical advisers were of opinion that it should be demolished within a short number of years in any case, and replaced.

With that in mind the Cork County Council sent a deputation to the Minister for Lands some months ago to explain to him in detail the state of Castletownbere pier and to stress the seriousness of the position that was arising there. I need hardly remind the House that if Castletownbere pier were to collapse, serious loss of life could be incurred and, if such a misfortune should happen, the Minister will appreciate that all the public representatives from that area would be indicted and indicted very severely. We called on the Minister at his office in Leinster House and we gave him a complete picture of the position. We told him that it was the considered opinion of the local people in Castletownbere that the pier should be demolished and replaced. We told him that Cork County Council had agreed that opinion was correct and we asked him to review this matter as early as possible and send us a reply.

The Minister informed us that a Swedish consultant had been engaged by the Board of Works and that he, with a number of other technical advisers from that office, was making inspections of major harbours in Southern Ireland and that one of the piers being examined was Castletownbere. He expected that in the not too distant future a report from that consultant would be available to him and he assured us that, as soon as that report was received in his office, he would have it dealt with immediately and communicate as early a decision as possible to the Cork County Council. When asked by the deputation when it was likely that the report would be received, he anticipated that it would likely be at hand early in the month of January and he was quite satisfied that before the Estimates meetings of the Cork County Council would take place in March the report would be available to the Council.

As representations from local quarters were renewed, and vigorously renewed, and as the Minister's report had not come to hand in the month of January, as was anticipated in our consultations with him in his office, I addressed a question to the Minister on the 11th February and I want to remind him that the 11th February is exactly six weeks ago.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Moran)

It is not two months ago, as the Deputy said today.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I shall tell the Minister all what I said today as I proceed. On that date I asked the Minister:

whether he has received a report from his technical advisers on the proposal to erect a new pier at Castletownbere; and, if so, if he will indicated the action proposed to be taken.

In the course of his replies the Minister said:

I understand a report has now been received in the Department and is under examination by the people concerned.

Surely the reasonable interpretation that I, or any other member of the House, got from that statement was that the report was now available in the Minister's office and was being examined by the responsible authorities? There were a number of supplementary questions on the 11th February and finally I informed the Minister that if a report were not made available to the county council within a reasonable time I would renew the question. Today I asked the Minister for Lands:

Whether he will indicate his decision on the report received from his technical advisers on the proposal to erect a new pier at Castletownbere.

The Minister said:

I have not yet taken a decision on this matter.

I then asked him:

Will the Minister indicated when he will take a decision on the matter?

and the Minister stated:

I cannot indicate that at this time.

I then asked:

Is the Minister not aware that he informed a deputation from Cork County Council that a decision in this matter would be taken possibly in the month of January and would be communicated to the council in time for its Estimates meeting in March?

The Minister stated:

The Deputy is completely misstating the facts. I stated no such thing. I stated that a decision would be taken when we would get the report from the expert which we were awaiting and when it would be examined. At that time we did not have that report. We have just received it now.

I then asked:

Is the Minister not aware that he informed this House almost two months ago that the Report was then available?

The Minister said:

The Deputy is again inaccurate. It was not two months since he put down this question.

I amended this to six weeks, which was the correct time, and then the Minister made a very peculiar reply. He said:

Two weeks ago the report was received. I had not then seen it. I have seen it since and it is still under examination.

I think that the Minister's contradictory statements in this House today and on the 11th February indicate quite clearly that his statements are untruthful.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must allow the Minister time to reply.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

It indicates quite clearly that they were misleading statements because in this important matter on the 11th February, the Minister said that the report was in his Department and was under examination. Now, while you, a Cheann Comhairle, have ruled and correctly so, that if a Minister is responsible for his Department, surely there was an obligation on the Minister to be responsible to this House for the activities of officers of his Department.

An Ceann Comhairle

I shall call on the Minister. There are only 10 minutes remaining.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I have surely five minutes more; we did not start at 10.30 p.m. I am entitled to 20 minutes with respect to you and I did not get in until 10.35 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

The clock says it is 10 minutes to eleven. I cannot allow the debate to go on beyond the time allowed——

Mr. M.P. Murphy

With due respect, 20 minutes is allowed usually. We commenced at 10.35 p.m. and I have been only 15 minutes speaking.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling on the Minister.

Mr. Corish

Surely if a Deputy who raises a question on the adjournment suffers a loss of five minutes, the Minister in his reply should bear some of the loss in the time allocated to him? I do not know whether there is any Standing Order on it but the Minister has 10 minutes in ordinary circumstances and the Deputy has 20 minutes. Surely there should be a compromise?

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I think I should get three minutes more.

Mr. Moran

I shall compromise on two.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy then may have two minutes further.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I am sorry to say that today the Minister's attitude seemed to be, to put it mildly, rather petulant. I hope that when he replies he will make some apology for the attitude he displayed on this very important question of the provision of a pier for Castletownbere. I regret that the Minister has not given this matter the attention we thought he would give it when we appeared before him on the deputation. With the short time at my disposal I am making a very strong plea to the Minister here this evening that he should reconsider his decision in this matter, that he should deal with this report which is now available in his Department, expeditiously and send along to the Cork County Council without further delay approval for the construction of the pier at Castletownbere.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is entitled to get in now.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Moran)

On this matter, we had better get the position clear for the record. First, I want to refer to a meeting with the deputation that I received from Cork, including the Deputy, on the 12th November, 1959, and I wish to refer to an aide memoire made by one of my officials who was present at the time:

"In reply, the Minister stated that he was awaiting the report of the Harbours Consultant. When the report was available he would give it immediate consideration but the deputation would appreciate that he would have to examine it in the light of the over-all national circumstances. The natural advantages of Castletownbere impressed him. He noted, however, that landings of fish there were largely made by visiting boats. He also noted that the county engineer had stated 12 months ago that the jetty was not in danger of collapse but apparently the position had changed in the interval. The Minister agreed that it would be inadvisable at this stage to incur any heavy expenditure at Castletownbere at the present time. He would deal with the expert's report as quickly as possible and the Government's decision on the over-all position would be taken without delay."

It was made clear to the deputation, of which the Deputy was a member, that at this stage we had not received Mr. Burke's report at that time and that when the report was received it would naturally have to be examined and the Government's decision taken on the matter. This report, I should say, arises from part of the major economic policy of the Government and was made subject to the Programme for Economic Expansion from which I quote to put this matter in its proper perspective:

"There are many small piers and harbours none of which, however, was designed as a modern fishing harbour. There is an outstanding need for five or six specially developed fishing harbours with good berthage, depth of water, and quays equipped with modern facilities for unloading, for the manufacture of ice and the processing of fish meal and oil. A Swedish consultant has been engaged to advise on this matter and when his report has been received a development programme will be undertaken. Many other possible landing places will also be improved."

Mr. Bjuke, the expert brought in under that provision of the Programme for Economic Expansion published by the Government, had to examine practically all the ports that would be suitable in the whole of this country round our coast and in fact his detailed examination comprised an examination and report on 56 ports in this country. When this deputation was received by me I did not have this report. I told them we expected to have Mr. Bjuke's report round about January. We in fact got it about the first week in February.

Mr. Bjuke's proposals were on the whole 57 of the ports which he had examined. That report had, of course, to be scrutinised and examined by the officials of my Department. In particular the technical proposals made by him had to be examined; some have still to be examined. It would appear to be suggested that a matter of this kind, not deciding whether this particular part should be in or out but deciding the whole national picture involving an expenditure of hundreds of thousands of pounds, should be decided by me with one stroke of the pen without a full examination.

The Deputy comes along to the attack, if I may call it such, on the 11th February in this House when he put down the question to which he himself has referred. The Deputy suggested that I had the report because I stated in my reply that the report was received in my Department and was under examination but that I had not yet seen it, and that was the position at that time. He again comes along with his question today. So far as he quotes from what was said today I only want to correct him in one thing. I repeat, of course, that he was inaccurate when he wanted to build up this picture of delay. He started off with the proposition that he had this question down in the House two months ago. That was not so as has been admitted now by himself. The question was on the 11th February. He also made the allegation here as to what I was alleged to have said to the deputation which I received. I have now put on the records of this House what was said to the particular deputation and that they were told—that when this report was received it would be examined without any undue delay but that we would naturally have to have it examined when we received it from the expert concerned, Mr. Bjuke.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Will the Minister explain his statement today?

Mr. Moran

I am in possession and the Deputy will not shout me down. I want again to put it on record here that when his question of the 11th February was put down to me although the report was received by the engineers and technical staff of the Fisheries Division I had not yet seen it, nor did I have any time to study it.

Again, let me make clear, it was a report dealing not only with Castletownbere but with 56 different harbours in this country.

The Deputy evidently thinks, for some reason of his own, or for some purpose of his own, that by trying to twist my arm here he will intimidate me into taking some unconsidered steps in this matter. I will not be intimidated.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Will the Minister explain why he made untruthful statements?

Mr. Moran

I will not be intimidated. I will not permit myself to be subjected to this particular kind of pressure, a pressure which appears to me to arise on the part of the Deputy for his own devices. This is an attempt by the Deputy to climb on to this particular bandwagon for his own local political purposes.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Will the Minister explain his reason for the untruthful statement he made in the House today that this Report was only received two weeks ago in his office?

Mr. Moran

The Report is under examination by me and immediately I am in a position to do so, and I so informed the deputation which I received, I shall communicate a decision on this matter to the county council concerned.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 24th March, 1960.