Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 10 Jun 1960

Vol. 182 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42—Lands.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £1,287,740 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1961, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Minister for Lands and of the Irish Land Commission.

At the outset, I should mention that the format of this Estimate has been generally revised since last year, with the approval of the Committee of Public Accounts. It has been found possible to reduce the number of former subheads by half. A key to the corresponding subheads is on page 170 in the current Estimates Volume. It is in the form of straightforward cross-references which seem to be self-explanatory. To facilitate comparisons within the current Estimate, the details for last year have been brought into line throughout with the new format. I feel that Deputies will find this new format of the Lands Estimate generally satisfactory.

As is customary, I propose to begin with an explanation of the important subheads. I shall continue with a review in some detail of the activities of the Land Commission during the past financial year and I also intend to comment on some matters of general interest, which are appropriate to this important Vote.

When last year's Supplementary Estimate of £32,000 has been taken into account, the net total of £2,231,940 for the current year shows an increase of £110,860 on the corresponding amount, namely, £2,121,080, voted last year, including the Supplementary Estimate. This overall increase this year is attributable mainly to the substantial increases in four subheads—A, D, G and I, to each of which I shall now refer.

Subhead A, in respect of Salaries, Wages and Allowances, shows an increase of £34,059 over last year's provision. This increase is almost entirely attributable to the general Civil Service salary award, effective from last December. The reduction of 32 shown in authorised personnel is accounted for by the continuing progress towards completion of resale of tenanted land.

Subhead D in the main represents the taxpayers' contribution in the current year towards the service of land purchase debt, accumulated on both tenanted and untenanted land, since 1923. This year, that contribution totals £889,300—almost two-thirds of which relates to tenanted lands which were purchased from landlords between the years 1923 and 1931. The moneys in the subhead are in the nature of statutory commitments. They account for almost 40 per cent. of the whole Estimate. The increase of £10,950 this year is almost entirely due to the halving of purchase instalments payable by new allottees.

Item 1 of Subhead G, carries a substantial increase of £35,000 for cash purchases under Section 27 of the Land Act, 1950. This increase brings the provision up to £60,000 which is by far the largest sum to date provided for this purpose. I am confident that the entire £60,000 will be spent this year. Last year, approximately £40,000 was spent in purchasing 1,032 acres, mostly in the congested districts counties. It is scarcely necessary to remind Deputies that, by the Land Act, 1950, these particular funds are confined to the purchase of lands required for migrants' holdings or to facilitate the re-arrangement of fragmented holdings.

The second and smaller item in subhead G provides a repeat of last year's figure of £5,000 in respect of compensation payable in cash for holdings that may be resumed on the diminishing residue of C.D.B. estates. Thus, the two items in Subhead G cover the limited but important sector of cash purchases. The bulk of land settlement continues to be financed in land bonds issued under Land Bond Orders made by the Minister for Finance. The land bond interest rate of 5½ per cent. and the annuity rate of 5¾ per cent. remain unchanged from last year. At these rates, the relevant purchase annuities are amortised in 58 years. To correct mistaken notions, heard from time to time, I want to emphasise that the repayment period was not increased by the halving of annuities under the Land Act, 1933.

Subhead H provides £3,500 for the payment of gratuities to persons displaced from employment on lands being taken over by the Land Commission for division. Last year, twenty-four ex-employees received gratuities aggregating £3,074 and averaging £128 each. Since the system of cash gratuities was introduced in 1950, a total of £22,508 has been paid by way of gratuities to 204 persons— an average of £110 each.

I should point out that not all ex-employees are compensated in cash; last year, twenty-six ex-employees who were considered suitable to take on the responsibilities of farming, were given allotments totalling 806 acres. In all cases, the award of compensation— whether in terms of land or money— is an excepted matter within the jurisdiction of the Land Commissioners.

Subhead I provides £670,510 for the improvements works programme, being equivalent to 30% of the entire Estimate. This has always been a popular debating sector of the Land Estimate and the retention of the traditional subhead letter "I" will help to preserve continuity. There are a few significant differences of detail in the present Subhead I compared with previous years.

First, there are the items of £20,000 salaries and £10,000 travelling expenses of the 38 supervisors referred to in footnote (d) on page 175 of the current Estimates Volume. The former grade of "supervising ganger", which is now known as "supervisor", has been integrated into the regular Civil Service organisation and provision for superannuation has been made for this staff as far as practicable. That is a change I am particularly glad to announce; the need for awarding established status to some of these men found many mouthpieces in this House and I know that Deputies generally will welcome it. The pay and travelling expenses of this important field staff used formerly be borne on Subhead I as overheads going to make up the global estimates for building and general improvement works. In view of the altered status of the supervisors, it is considered more appropriate now to provide for their salaries and travelling expenses in the orthodox subheads for these items.

Another significant change in Subhead I concerns the minor provision which used to figure in previous years under the subtitle of "Purchase of Tenancy Interests". This year, it is classified as Subhead G2, to which I referred a few moments ago, in connection with the repeat of last year's provision of £5,000 for resumed holdings on C.D.B. estates. These subhead transfers represent a deduction of £35,000 from the old Subhead I.

In effect, Subhead I provides the entire funds for carrying out the various improvements works associated with and inseparable from the land settlement programme. These works include the erection of dwelling-houses and out-offices on new farmsteads and re-arranged holdings, the construction of roads, fences and drains on resettled lands, turbary development works and so on. Last year, when the original provision of £639,605 proved inadequate, a supplementary estimate of £50,000 was granted, making a total of £689,605 voted for the year. Of this sum, the amount actually expended was £683,778.

Deducting the sums applicable to supervisors and tenancy interests, which are no longer appropriate to Subhead I, we had an actual expenditure last year of just under £653,000 for comparison with the current Subhead I provision of over £670,000, representing a nett increase of approximately £17,000 in the current year.

It is anticipated that the increased funds will be wholly required to finance the improvement work engagements in the current year's programme. An Incentive Bonus Scheme similar to that in operation in the State Forests is now being extended to workers employed on Land Commission improvements works.

The remaining few substantial expenditure Subheads relate to travelling and incidental expenses, telegrams, telephones and postage and legal expenses—which are self-explanatory. Indeed, these subheads show little change from the previous year and the detailed breakdown is set out in Part III of the printed Estimate.

As regards appropriations-in-aid, Subhead L at £178,000 is some £4,500 higher than last year. This increase is almost entirely attributable to item (5) for "Excess Annuities, etc." This item is statutorily regulated by Land (Finance) Rules. The relevant receipts take the form of tenant purchasers' repayments on improvement loans, turbary rights and other resales not primarily financed in land bonds.

I now turn to a review of the main activities of the Land Commission during the year ended 31st March, 1960. Though some of the statistics are provisional, they are unlikely to vary to any appreciable extent from the final returns which will not be available for some little time yet.

On the tenanted land side, progress continued towards the completion of land purchase, i.e., the conversion of tenants into proprietors, through the process of revesting their holdings in them. Of a total of some 112,000 tenanted holdings which vested in the Land Commission under the Land Acts, 1923-54, for ultimate resale to tenants, approximately 103,000 had been dealt with by 31st March, 1960.

The number of such holdings revested during the year was 1,010. The essential work of selling their holdings to the sitting tenants has now virtually concluded in 15 counties, namely, Carlow, Cavan, Dublin, Kildare, Kilkenny, Laois, Leitrim, Limerick, Longford, Louth, Meath, Monaghan, Westmeath, Wexford and Wicklow, and the balance of cases under Land Acts, 1923-1924, has been reduced to 9,000 which represents only about 8% of the original total. In addition, approximately 3,000 holdings, on estates of the former Congested Districts Board, still await resale and the aggregate total of 12,000 holdings constitutes the hard core of tenanted land on actually congested estates.

It is estimated that 7,000 of these holdings, apart from being undersized, are in rundale or intermixed plots. The solution of these difficult cases is inevitably a tedious process. They represent what might be termed "a recalcitrant residue", disposal of which is affected to a large extent by negotiations for migration and re-arrangement and the acquisition or purchase of other lands. Even at the expanded rate of progress in the past two years, the re-arrangement of unvested fragmented holdings will probably take another ten years to complete. Much will necessarily depend upon the degree of co-operation among the occupiers themselves and the willingness of a sufficient number to migrate from rundale townlands to new holdings elsewhere.

On the land settlement side, during the year ended 31st March last, the total area acquired, resumed or otherwise taken over by the Land Commission was 28,000 acres, while the total area distributed, in some 2,250 allotments, was 39,000 acres, in addition to the provision of 868 rights of turbary. Bearing in mind that land settlement policy has aimed at a steady intake and allotment of 25,000 acres per annum, I think the results which I have just quoted for the year are certainly good.

At 31st March, 1960, the acreage of arable lands on hand, forming the programme stock-in-trade, amounted to approximately 37,500 acres and the lands in the acquisition machine totalled 27,500 acres.

The number of migrations carried out during the year was 118 and, in addition, 600 re-arrangements were effected. I should like to say a few words on these two inseparable features of land settlement in this country. I referred a few moments ago to the difficulty in disposing of the residual hard core of tenanted land. These holdings, as Deputies are no doubt aware, are situated for the most part on acutely-congested estates in counties along the western seaboard. A high proportion of them stands in dire need of re-arrangement as a prerequisite to revesting, while the bulk of them would also benefit from enlargement. In this connection, it is necessary to emphasise that, due to the scarcity of untenanted land in the immediate vicinity of the congested estates, migration is generally the main source of obtaining the land needed for re-arrangement and enlargement purposes.

Coming, as I do, from the west of Ireland, I am naturally very deeply interested in the Land Commission's migration and re-arrangement programme, and I think that the most heartening news for tenants on congested estates is the fact that about 600 holdings are now being re-arranged by the Irish Land Commission each year. The re-grouping into compact workable units of the series of scattered and intermixed plots which normally constitute their holdings is of very great benefit to these tenants of what are often called "rural slums". This is the vital work being done by the Land Commission in their voluntary re-arrangement schemes and I know that Deputies, including those who may be only remotely conversant with the conditions obtaining on some of these badly-congested estates, will fully endorse the worth and merit of this work.

Here, I believe it appropriate to say that the circumstances under which land may be acquired are laid down by statute; owners of land sought for compulsory acquisition have a legal right of objection by way of public hearing; they also have further legal rights of appeal. Frequently acquisition proceedings are vigorously contested. In contrast, the success of migration and re-arrangement schemes wholly depends on the voluntary co-operation of the participants. The human element plays a big part in this aspect of the work, demanding long and careful negotiations by the inspectorate to procure the goodwill of all the landholders.

In practice, the more acute the congestion and overcrowding, the more difficult it is to secure the agreement of suitable families to migrate and also to win general consent for a satisfactory re-arrangement scheme. Consent and co-operation are not easy to achieve when many landholders are involved, particularly if, in the general exchange and re-shuffle of disconnected plots, there is not sufficient land to inspire and induce them to resettle. The entire business of migration and re-arrangement is a slow and exacting process involving patient negotiation and bargaining but it is an inescapable item in our land settlement.

I cannot pass from this subject without emphasising the vital need for tenants concerned in the formulation of re-arrangement proposals to cooperate fully with the Land Commission inspectors with a view to bringing re-arrangement schemes, which, in any event, are solely for the tenants' benefit, to a successful conclusion. Though the need for this co-operation has been stressed many times already, I am now compelled to refer to the matter once more and I earnestly appeal to any Deputies who may have an opportunity of doing so to impress on tenants, in their own interests, the importance of wholehearted co-operation with the Land Commission in this section of the work.

Turning to housing activities, 210 new dwelling-houses and 338 new out-offices were erected and eleven dwelling-houses were substantially reconstructed, by or with assistance from the Land Commission during the year ended 31st March last, the total expenditure on buildings being £321,494. Recently, some prototype dwelling-houses, to new architectural designs, were completed in Laois and Westmeath. The Land Commission are now considering the results of this experiment, with special reference to practical farmstead utility and building costs which must of course be assessed also. After such assessment, it is hoped that these prototype houses will serve as a useful guide for a range of new designs for general use in land settlement schemes.

Another important feature of activity during the past year was the vesting of a total of 5,350 properties, comprising holdings, parcels of land and rights of turbary, in tenants and allottees.

The collection of land purchase annuities continues to be most satisfactory. Out of a total of nearly £65¾ million collectable since 1933, payment of over £65½ million had been secured by the Land Commission at 31st March, 1960. At that date the actual amount outstanding was £147,574—less than one-quarter of one per cent. of the sum collectable; that is some index of the credit-worthiness of Irish farmers and I hasten to express my appreciation for their prompt payment of annuities.

Good progress continues to be made under the Land Commission scheme for resettlements out of the areas of high flood risk in the Shannon Valley. This Land Commission scheme is confined to farmers whose holdings have been seriously flooded or whose farms lack secure stands for livestock, against the risk of abnormal floods. The estimated cost of the scheme, approximately £100,000, is being defrayed out of the National Development Fund. The objective of this particular scheme is to give relief from the hazards of serious flooding, as far as this can be done, by providing alternative buildings on safer sites, together with dry-stands to accommodate stock in times of abnormal floods.

Altogether, some 105 farmers are involved and already something has been done, by the Land Commission, for about 80 of them, by way of building operations and allotments. The worst cases are being given priority. The expenditure to a current date amounts to approximately £45,800.

Some few farmers in the scheme have refused dry-site allotments for the erection of proposed new buildings. Apparently, they want the Land Commission to build on sites which are liable to flooding. It would be objectionable to expend public funds in that way and it is hoped that these particular beneficiaries will not prove unco-operative. The scheme is a voluntary one and can be carried into execution only to such extent as the individual beneficiaries will cooperate. For some of the outstanding cases, the question of further land acquisition is involved, possibly through a few further migrations. Negotiations are continuing in these cases. In the general interest, I would ask for the utmost co-operation from all concerned so that the completion of this very important scheme may be expedited.

At this stage I should like to comment on the outstanding congestion problem. According to the latest official statistics, there are in the State some 168,000 holdings above one acre and not exceeding 30 acres. It is probably safe to say that from 60,000 to 80,000 genuine small farmers, about half of whom are in western counties, are still trying to derive a subsistence livelihood from uneconomic holdings. These uneconomic farmers have a strong and serious claim to enlargement. The very large number of them involved makes one thing quite plain. The problem of congestion is still far from being finally solved.

In face of that, I cannot but be surprised that there are those who advocate an extension to the classes of allottees for Land Commission land. Here land is a valuable but limited commodity—very limited indeed by reference to the almost limitlessness of applicants for it. With the situation as I mentioned it, that is, upwards of 60,000 small-holders struggling on uneconomic units, it ought to be clear, and abundantly clear, that before there can be any question whatever of introducing a new group, those 60,000 who are already on the land in an uneconomic way must be regarded as a first charge on any land that becomes available to the State.

To put it another way; every new holding bought or created by the Land Commission and diverted to a person not already on the land, means the perpetuation of one or more of the existing small-holders on dwarf holdings not sufficient to give even a modest living. Let me put it still another way: the 40 odd acres needed to establish just one landless person would be sufficient to advance three or perhaps four existing small-holders to economic level.

I know it is said, and said as if it were something of a heresy and utterly opposed to reason, that the only way to qualify for land from the Land Commission is to have land already: it is easy to shift the heresy out of that facile statement by saying that the best way to qualify for land from the Land Commission is to have some land already but not enough to return a modest livelihood. There is no heresy in that but an article of sound policy, in the correctness of which I have an unswerving belief. Surely it is the height of sense to insist that upwards of 60,000 small-holders must be improved first before new recruits are brought in.

Any assessment of the extent of congestion automatically poses the question of the minimum size of economic holding or, as it is more often termed nowadays, the viable unit. I think it will be accepted that, having regard to the wide range of thriving farms throughout the country, the definition of an economic holding cannot be reduced to any dogmatic formula in simple terms of acreage. Neither can it be treated in practice as a problem in abstract economics.

Indeed, it is a complex issue of sociology, economics and agronomics, with very great emphasis on the human aspect. In my view, it is absurd to generalise that 35, 45, 65 or 105 acres is an economic farming unit. We have all seen, on the one hand, the individual with the 60 to 100 acre farm having most of it let to his more industrious neighbours and eventually being forced to sell out; and, on the other hand, the 30 acre ambitious farmer progressing to the extent that he becomes a major land-owner in his own parish.

The practical approach to the question of the size of the viable holding in this country, is to try to determine the desirable minimum unit and, in doing so, to ensure, having regard to the size of the country, that we cut our national land cloth according to our measure. There are so many deserving applicants for land that a solution lies in ascertaining—not how much land a farmer can work—but rather the minimum area on which an industrious farmer can be expected to succeed. It is on such basis only that the maximum number of families can be established on the land in economic security, this being amongst the Directive Principles of Social Policy outlined in the Constitution.

I can see no reason why a compact Land Commission standard holding, containing 33 acres of good Irish land, or equivalent larger acreage of varied quality, cannot be really rewarding, provided that it is intensively worked and that the allottee avails himself fully of the excellent advisory services operated by the county committees of agriculture. In Denmark—so often cited here as a country to be imitated in terms of agriculture—the farming economy is largely based on units of under 25 statute acres. It is not so much the size of holdings that matters as the competence and will with which the acres are worked.

While on this subject, I should refer to allegations which have been made in this House that many allottees of Land Commission standard holdings are selling out and emigrating because the allotments are too small. I can say, however, that these allegations are not borne out by investigation. As far as I can ascertain, the general experience is that Land Commission migrants have been quick to settle down and they work their new holdings remarkably well as a general rule. Naturally, it takes a little time to get properly established in new surroundings. In an undertaking of this kind, much depends on individual judgment and the course of circumstances, with runs of good-luck and ill-luck, but no well-disposed or even neutral person will withhold from our migrants a reasonable period of grace in which to find their feet.

The administration of the Game Preservation Act, 1930, which formerly came within the ambit of the Department of Justice, is now the responsibility of my Department. Since my appointment as Minister for Lands, I have been considering the lines on which game preservation and development on a national scale might best be guided. I welcome wholeheartedly the formation and growth of voluntary organisations for preservation of game and control of vermin and look forward to an expansion of this development with a view to providing the necessary groundwork for action on a national scale. Indeed, it goes without saying that the appearance of such organisations is ample evidence of the existence of a keen practical interest in our potentially valuable game resources.

I should like to reiterate my appeals for full co-operation by all interests— sporting, rural and agricultural—to ensure the success of the game movement, a vital activity which presents a challenge to all organisations concerned with sporting and rural life. It would, indeed, be a tragedy if sectional or partisan interests were to affect adversely the attainment of such a worthy aim.

My own approach to the subject of game promotion is flexible and unbiased, my primary concern being to see the emergence of an organisation, representative of the country as a whole, suited to our conditions, and firmly rooted in the pattern of rural life. As already intimated, the matter is at present under active consideration with a view to settling the lines of long-term policy, as soon as circumstances permit.

The rate of purchase of land by non-nationals is another important general aspect which calls for comment. As Deputies already know, this matter was investigated in 1950, when it was ascertained that during the previous decade a total of 50,000 acres had been purchased by 200 persons who were believed to be non-nationals. In fact, a number of them turned out to be of Irish origin. Also, many of the properties were of a residential type unsuitable for land division.

Last July, another investigation was made by the Garda Síochána with the co-operation of the Department of Justice into the extent of sizeable acquisitions of agricultural properties by non-nationals. The investigation period covered from April, 1957 to July, 1959. In summary, the returns showed that in the period of 2¼ years a total of 23 properties containing 7,027 acres had been purchased by reputed non-nationals. The vendors of three of these properties, containing 891 acres, were themselves non-nationals. In the same period also, 12 properties owned by non-nationals containing 2,327 acres were sold back to Irish nationals. The net sales to non-nationals covered by the inquiry, therefore, comprised 11 properties containing 4,700 acres in the period 1st April, 1957, to July, 1959—averaging 2,100 acres a year compared with the earlier average of 5,000 acres a year from 1940 to 1950.

Reasonable reciprocity in regard to property purchases could scarcely be denied. But close watch is being kept for any unreasonable or excessive developments and if it should transpire that the free play of economic forces was threatening the wide distribution of property which we fortunately have in this country, then I should be moved to suggest restrictive measures to my Government.

I have no hesitation in stating that suitable action will be taken against any attempted frustration of land settlement policy, whether by proposed sales to non-nationals or otherwise. In this connection, it should be noted that, in the case of properties to which the Land Acts apply, the sale of land to a new owner does not impair the ultimate power of the Land Commission to acquire such land for the relief of local congestion.

I shall now bring this opening statement towards conclusion with a reference to the Land Commission itself. As Deputies generally know, the Land Commission's functions are partly administrative and partly quasi-judicial. In the sphere of general policy and administration, the Minister for Lands has the overriding responsibility. But there are 14 functions listed in the Land Act, 1950, and clearly defined as "excepted matters". These functions arise in the day-to-day operations of land settlement and they touch very closely upon the fundamental private rights and circumstances of the individual citizen in relation to agricultural land. These are the quasi-judicial functions.

In relation to these statutory "excepted matters" the Land Commission has the status of a Court and functions independently of the Government. This principle was enshrined first in the Land Act, 1933 and again in the Land Act, 1950. There is general acceptance, in the light of experience, that such division of function is fundamental and I have no great quarrel with it.

Entrusted with wide powers in a difficult and contentious sphere, the Land Commission has onerous responsibilities and I am satisfied that they are discharged faithfully and impartially. I take this opportunity to express my appreciation of the work carried out during the past year.

As a people, we have a socially active conscience and that conscience will not be at ease until the problem of acute congestion which still persists in some areas is undone. This Estimate is directed at that problem and I confidently recommend it to the House.

When I consider some of the wild statements the Minister made when he was a Deputy on this side of the House, and I was in the position in which he now is, and as this is the first Estimate for Lands he has introduced, I would have expected some revolutionary changes because I cannot help recalling some of the things he expected me to do, particularly in 1948 and 1949. I suppose the Minister, now that he has had a look inside the Department, if he admitted the truth, would agree that an excellent amount of work was done during the 1948-51 period and also in the second period of office of the inter-Party Government. The Minister's opening speech was very tame and did not give Deputies much hope that there will be any revolutionary changes or any great speeding-up of the work of the Land Commission. It showed that the Minister realises that the Land Commission had, and always did have, a very difficult job to do and I am sure he now realises they have done a good job in spite of a great deal of opposition, both in this House and outside, and very often from the very people who would most benefit from their activities.

The work of the Land Commission during the year was good but no better than in previous years. The intake of land was about 28,000 acres. When I was Minister for Lands, the figure was also about 28,000 to 32,000 or 33,000 —in some years, a little less, and in others a little more. That is a very good intake considering how landowner-minded we are in this country and how difficult it is—and it is a difficult matter—to dispossess a man of his property. It should be realised that the Land Commission have a power that no similar body have under any Government in Western Europe, as far as I am aware. It is a sweeping power to give to anybody, even to a judicial body such as the Land Commission, the power to dispossess a man of his property and, except in a small way in the case of the Department of Industry and Commerce and the county councils which can acquire small portions of land—nothing like on the same scale as the Land Commission—no other body has this power.

I see that 39,000 acres were allotted last year. That is just about the average for quite a number of years past. The Minister told us in one part of his speech that 1,010 holdings or farms were vested last year and later on he told us that 5,350 were vested. That is on page 9 of his brief and I cannot quite follow that because I thought all the vestings were, or used to be, lumped together into one figure. His exact words were:

Another important feature of activity during the past year was the vesting of a total of 5,350 properties, comprising holdings, parcels of lands and rights of turbary in tenants and allottees.

Earlier, he had told us that the number of holdings vested during the year was 1,010. I feel that the Land Commission, particularly the section of it that has the responsibility for vesting holdings, deserve very great praise from everybody for the tremendous work they have done.

It may be no harm to give a short review of it because it is something I remember quite well. Under the 1923 Act, roughly 112,000 holdings were bought over on estates owned by landlords up to that time. Provision was made that vesting should take place in a few years. For many reasons, some of them political, the vesting, which was a very important part of the work of the Land Commission, that is, the handing over of ownership of the holding to the tenant making him his own landlord or proprietor, was shelved and it was not until the inter-Party Government came along in 1948 that the job was tackled on a big scale, when vestings were as many as 16,000 a year for quite a number of years. I admit, now that the bulk of these holdings have been vested, the remaining ones require rearrangement and improvement in many ways and vesting naturally will be slower. If we had a total number of 112,000 holdings remaining to be vested in 1948, or the great bulk of them, and if they have now been reduced to 9,000, that is an excellent job.

To speak broadly on the work of the Land Commission, they still have a long way to go and I think the rate of progress should be speeded up. I am not subscribing in any way to some of the foolish nonsense we read in the daily newspapers from time to time suggesting that the Land Commission should be abolished, that they have outlived their usefulness. I do not know what kind of mentality is behind such statements. The most charitable thing that can be said for those who make such statements is that they have absolutely no knowledge of conditions on small holdings and they seem to be ignorant of the position in the west of Ireland where the congestion is. They seem to imagine that congestion is something brought about by the tenants themselves and they seem to forget that the work of establishing farmers as owners of their holdings began—if I remember correctly—back in 1871. It has been going on ever since.

The very fact that it has taken all that time should be sufficient proof to anybody with any sense or sympathy with the lot of people living in the rural slums that the job is a big one and that, taking it by and large, the Land Commission—not forgetting the body that was there before the 1933 Act, the Congested Districts Board—if they have not brought about a revolution in the country as visible as in the case of forestry or arterial drainage, they have nevertheless brought about a revolution for the betterment of conditions to an extent which it is hard for people nowadays to realise.

The Minister seems to think that the present size of holdings is sufficient but I do not agree with him. That is not the fault of the Minister, the present or the previous Government or the Land Commission. It is due to the march of time and to the increased standard of living people are becoming accustomed to. The Minister must be quite well aware of the very serious flight from holdings that were settled in 1948, 1950 or 1951, or even later. I am sure the Minister knows what is happening on part of the North Sligo estate where whole families have been clearing out from holdings, some of which were settled only in recent years. I do not blame the Minister or the Land Commission for that—it is largely due to circumstances outside our control—but I suggest that the time has come to have a complete review of the size of additions to holdings.

The previous Minister, Deputy Childers, removed the ceiling of £10 in congested areas. That did not make much difference; it was just a gesture; but even if he could have increased the valuation up to £50, no man could get land if it was not there for him. I should like to make a practical suggestion in this regard. It is better to increase the size of holdings beyond what the Land Commission are accustomed to, or confined to, under present policy by tradition and experience. I say that because we are now losing whole families. The pattern of emigration which, up to this, usually took the form of some of the boys and girls going and some of them—usually a son—staying at home to inherit the holding and carry on the work there, is changing.

In the past few years, the pattern has changed. The Minister must be well aware of the change. He certainly does not, I am sure, go around his constituency with his eyes closed. The pattern today is that whole families are locking up and moving out. It is a serious matter for the country to lose whole families. I am told that in one area in south-west Mayo 19 homes have been closed up in the past three years. Some were admittedly single men, but in other cases whole families moved out— father, mother, and two or three children. In one case, seven children left with their parents and went over to Birmingham.

The Land Commission can do a great deal to stop that kind of emigration. If the Minister would induce the Government—I do not want him to think I am saddling him with an impossible task—to invest a fairly sizeable sum in the land problem for a few years, we would save a great many of these families for the country. We shall be discussing forestry latter. Forestry can also help to keep the people at home. If people were given sufficient money to purchase holdings, or to make decent additions to existing holdings, the pattern would be different. Steps will have to be taken to cope with the hard core of congestion that still remains. It is from holdings which are not yet settled that emigration is heaviest. I am not in touch with other counties, but I take it the position is the same in Donegal, Kerry and Clare. I do not know if the flight from the land is so serious in these counties as it is in Mayo, but I feel the movement out is not confined to Mayo alone.

People who have been compensated for land in the past through the medium of 4 per cent. and 4½ per cent. Land Bonds are pretty badly hit. These bonds were issued at par. Now when they go to sell them, instead of having a value of £100, they are worth only £83 or £84. All the people have are scraps of paper with £100 written on them and all they can get is £83 or £84 for them. That naturally depreciates the selling value of land. No Government can wash their hands of responsibility. The bonds are issued by the Minister for Finance with face value of £100, but they do not retain that value.

In the last year of the inter-Party Government, the interest rate was increased to 6 per cent. and bonds issued then and since are holding their own on the market. That is all to the good. I suggest the Minister take the matter up with the Minister for Finance. There will probably be a cry from the Department of Finance that any steps taken will increase the loss on resale, on the £889,000 the Minister mentioned which has to be met this year for the purchase of land since 1923. Nevertheless, we must not continue an injustice.

In that connection, I must refer to the price that obtained prior to the 1950 Act, the method of fixing the price and the insistence upon taking the redemption value out of the purchase price before the owner is handed the purchase money. A remnant of that injustice still remains in the issue of Land Bonds which sell considerably below their face value. I know that this obtained long before the Minister or I had any responsibility. I went some part of the way to rectify the position, but something still remains to be done. It was wrong to penalise land owners in this way as if it were they who were guilty of an injustice. I cannot understand how men who would not handle a penny wrongfully could subscribe to such a method.

A review of the size of holdings is absolutely necessary. To my own knowledge—I can supply plenty of names—holdings which were settled at the end of the war in 1955, on which new houses and outoffices were erected, are now closed up and apparently useless. There are too many of them to make letting attractive. The State has put money into them. The reason they are derelict is two-fold: first, the standard of living has gone up and, secondly, they are incapable of sustaining people on an improved standard of living. That is an aspect to which the Minister should give serious attention.

I want to compliment the Land Commission on the good work done in the Shannon Valley. I am glad to know that 80 holdings there have been either wholly or partially improved. I hope the good work will continue and that the remaining 30 or 40 will be dealt with in due course. Like the congests in the west, these people found themselves in an impossible position. They could not afford to move out; they could not afford to purchase holdings elsewhere. All they could do was to remain on these lands which are constantly subject to flooding. The Land Commission deserves great credit for the good work done there.

The Minister towards the conclusion of his speech, referring to the functions of the Land Commission in relation to "excepted matters"—"excepted matters" are the function of the Commissioners alone—said: "This principle was enshrined first in the Land Act, 1933, and again in the Land Act, 1950. There is general acceptance, in the light of experience, that such division of function is fundamental, and I have no quarrel with it." What exactly does the Minister mean by that? Is it that he barely tolerates a system which has been in operation since 1871? This seems a rather crude way to put it. It is a danger signal for the Commissioners, as far as I can see. It is possible that, while the Minister has no quarrel with the system at the moment, he may quarrel with it if the Commissioners rub him the wrong way or ruffle his feathers too much.

I shall not go back on the statements the Minister made or the accusations he levelled during the Committee Stage of the 1950 Land Act, but, if he wants to undermine security of tenure and destroy ownership, whether in the case of farmer or business man, the surest and simplest way to do it is by taking away that function from the Commissioners and giving it to the political head of the Department. Security of tenure, as we know it and as we knew it all along, will vanish overnight if that is done, and the Minister will have something red hot and thorny on his hands. Very calmly and deliberately, I increased the number of excepted matters from six to fourteen under the 1950 Act. I never regretted that. In fact, I feel very proud of it and I feel that a great measure of security was given as a result.

In the case of these two major questions, acquisition and allotment, this country would never tolerate any system under which these questions would be in the hands of people other than judicial men of known integrity and sound understanding of the problems of the country and of the laws of ownership. Such people understand the very tenacious grip we have on the ownership of our lands, be it only a couple of roods of cut-away bog or a large farm of good land. We would always defend it with our lives. I daresay the Minister had not any sinister object when he used that peculiar phrase, but it was a rather crude way of putting it.

A complete revision of the size of allotments and the enlargement of existing holdings is completely overdue. I should also like to mention the Kilmaine Estate about which I have put questions to the Minister. The answers I got, even this week, were that the delay was due to lack of co-operation. The Minister knows as well as I do that these two townlands are perched on the side of a mountain. While it might outrage the Commissioners and some of the inspectors, I think some effort should be made to save these seven or eight families, four in each village, and purchase land for them. The proper thing to do, even at cost to the State, would be to give over all the useless land on the holdings to forestry. There are in the nearby Fitzgerald No. 2 Estate many people who would be glad to get whatever arable land there is in these two villages. No doubt the Commissioners will say that that would be uneconomic, but I think it certainly would not be good economics if, for fear of breaking the usual rules of settling land, we were prepared to lose those eight families. Some of them told me they could not get their sons to stay at home. In some cases the sons are gone and the old people are just lingering on. I would ask the Minister to take a personal interest in this and make an effort to save those eight families.

The Land Commission inspectors will probably say: "We can give them £10 or £12 valuation of land," but we must look at the peculiar location of these two villages on top of a mountain with a winding, narrow road to it that a car or lorry could hardly travel. We must not fool ourselves. The youngsters of to-day will not live in a place like that, and if we insist on holding them their answer will be: "I will get a much better job in Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds." That is what is happening elsewhere, and it will happen there also. I can assure the Minister that I know the difficulties he will be up against, but I think his advice to the Commissioners and the inspectors would go a long way towards settling the matter.

I was sorry I was not present when the Minister made his opening statement. I shall confine myself to one or two remarks. The first is the allocation of turbary rights to tenants, a very sore point in my area. I have put down several questions concerning turbary rights. This matter affects an area in South Connemara stretching from Spiddal to Lettermullen. I know negotiations are going on in connection with turbary rights north of Spiddal. There are two villages, Kylerae East and Kylerae West, both very handicapped in the matter of turbary. This is the position all along to the Lettermullen peninsula.

I think it was about this time last year that some people in the Lettermullen area cut whatever little sods they could get on top of the rocky land there. They were visited by the Garda Síochána and, eventually, were prosecuted. I am not sure what they were fined, but I understand they were fined. These people have no turbary rights, and they must have turf for their winter fires. Are there not sufficient inspectors and Land Commission engineers in Galway to deal with the allocation of turbary plots in that area? I feel the Minister should investigate what happened in this case and find out why these people were prosecuted and who was responsible. I think it was a very high-handed action and I hope nothing like it will happen in the present season.

These people should be allocated turbary plots. I put a few questions to the Land Commission, and I was told it would cost thousands of pounds to build roads into some of these bogs. I know that a fairly large stretch of bog is to be taken over this year, but they say it will not be ready for turf cutting for at least two years. The people of the area have told me that they do not mind if the roads are not built for a couple of years so long as they get plots on which they can cut turf. They said they would get out the turf to the roads somehow in order to bring it home by lorry.

Sometimes the land left behind by migrants from the West is the cause of friction and trouble. Some time ago migrants were moved from a certain part of the West and the land they left behind was actually auctioned. If it is auctioned and if there are some people with substantial means in the area, it is only natural to assume that they have a greater chance of getting that land than the people who are probably most entitled to it. I think the matter should be investigated and the land should be given to the people who are most entitled to it.

In regard to land taken from migrants, if you take a village say of about 15 families, in order to give these families a little extra land you have to move about six families. This year three are moved, although there may be five willing to go, but houses were built for only three. Next year comes along and they may go to a different townland altogether to move a new crowd. If possible that village should be cleared out in the first year or, if not, in the second year and rearrangement should take place at the earliest possible opportunity in order to divide the land among the remaining people and make their holdings more economic.

I have no doubt that there is no better person to fill the post of Minister for Lands than the present occupant. He is a man of long experience of congested areas and I have the greatest confidence that anything which has not been going right in the congested areas will be put right by him before the present session of the Dáil terminates. He comes from an area like that from which I come where there is a lot of congestion and I am sure that down the years he has been attentive to and fighting the people's cause. I am confident he will iron out the problems existing in these areas and I wish him the best of luck.

One of the greatest problems confronting us, together with unemployment and emigration, is rural depopulation. These problems go hand in hand and the Minister for Lands is as familiar as any other Deputy with the prevailing conditions throughout rural Ireland. It is true to say, although apparently not to the knowledge of the Minister according to his statement to-day, that entire families are moving from the land. I feel that in recent years there has been a greater flow of emigration from rural Ireland than for a long time in the history of the country——

That is not so.

——and that in many parts of this country we have had, as was pointed out by Deputy Blowick, a new type of emigration where we see not one of a family— not the father, the older daughter, or the older son—but the entire family moving out, putting up a sheet of galvanised iron on the window and a large padlock on the door. There are many such cases west of the Shannon and if they are visible to Deputies on this side of the House it cannot be that they are invisible to Deputies on the other side. In the midlands there are many such holdings where the entire family has moved and has settled down elsewhere. In other words, these people are trying to get a sufficient sum of money together abroad to enable them to return some day to their holdings. They have put their lands on the books of an estate agent or an auctioneer and instructed him to let the lands in conacre until such time as they return. If there are signs of decay in the country they lie in the fact that no effort is being made to prevent the movement of entire families from rural Ireland.

When the Minister was introducing his Estimate this morning, I thought we should hear something about the Government's land policy, a policy by which the Government would endeavour to settle families on the land and to encourage these people who are moving off their land to remain on it. I expected that the Land Commission, through the Minister, would be submitting to the House whatever scheme they have in mind in this regard and that the Minister, who is answerable for the land policy of this Government, would give an indication as to the future land policy of Fianna Fáil. It appears from his statement to-day that it is a continuation of the policy which the Land Commission have operated in the past.

There is little use in Ministers rejoicing about the achievements that may have taken place during their term of office. The position is that we live in 1960; we live in new times and in new conditions which are moving swiftly and changing rapidly. We must plan our policy in accordance with present day circumstances and give all credit due to Ministers for Lands of the past and forget their failures or the lack of achievement. We must look to the future and to the present day. If we examine the Government's land policy, as announced by the Minister to-day, we see that there is no improvement laid out for the future and that in so far as the present day is concerned it is just a continuation of the decaying policy which has been operated in the past.

Any Minister for Lands should be deeply and gravely concerned about the vast movement taking place from rural Ireland. If the statistics in many parishes in rural Ireland to-day were compared with those of ten years ago they would show a considerable fall in population; if compared with 20 years ago they would show a greater fall and if they were compared with 30 years ago a still greater fall.

There are many parts of County Cork where, according to statistics taken in various parishes, there has been a reduction of almost 50 per cent. of the population. In the parish of Shannonbridge in Offaly in my constituency there has been an alarming reduction in the number of people resident there ten years ago, and certainly in the numbers resident there 20 years ago. That is probably typical of every parish in rural Ireland to-day. That should certainly cause any Minister for Lands to examine what is really responsible for it. If it is the case that there are not sufficient people settling on the land, or if the holdings on which the people live are not sufficient to enable them to bring up their families in accordance with proper Christian living standards, it ought to be examined with a view to putting it right. Whatever the Land Commission have been responsible for in the past—and it would be wrong to say they have not had many good achievements—they should realise that, living in the times in which we are living, there are a number of great evils facing us which call for great measures.

We can all sympathise with the Minister and the Land Commission because we know there are many more applicants for land than there is land available. That is recognised by all sides. If we examine, on the one hand, the results achieved by the Land Commission, which, mark you, was set up as a temporary institution and which was never intended to be permanent, and the amount of work yet to be done, on the other—and we realise that it is a big body which moves very slowly, and which is bound by various Acts of Parliament—we must ask ourselves are they competent to solve the great problems of rural depopulation and congestion which exist in this country to-day. The time has now come when the Government should carefully examine the entire land policy and find out for themselves whether they are achieving a measure of success in accordance with present-day trends of flight from the land, rural depopulation and the continuance of congestion.

There are many credit-worthy farmers' sons—and I am particularly interested in those people—who have not sufficient money to buy land, and who are taking land on the conacre system, and paying £15, £20, £25 and, in some cases, £30 for tillage land. They will never become the owners of that land. I have been wondering whether the Land Commission and the Minister have given any serious thought to the question of providing that type of credit-worthy farmer's son with land on a rent or other basis. These young men are prepared to pay for it, and they could pay for it, and they will gladly pay in the hope of enjoying ownership some day.

I should also like to hear from the Minister if it would not be advisable for the Land Commission to suspend the acquisition of that type of holding, except in cases where they are offered to the Land Commission and agreement is reached. The time has now come, having regard to the many failures in the past, when it should be possible to give land to the credit-worthy deserving farmers' sons and others who are anxious to get land, and are willing to work it, and who, in the opinion of those competent to judge, deserve to get land. On the other hand, we have a large number of holdings on the public market in respect of which there would be no question of having to dispossess any man who did not want to sell. One of the greatest safeguards in this or any other country is ownership of one's land. We must always recognise that, and any Government who fail to do so are facing doom. The right of private ownership and the right of a man, or a member of a family, to his own holding, without any hindrance from the State, is something that should be cherished and defended very strongly.

In the case where land is being acquired for the relief of congestion or otherwise, I should prefer to see that no hardship was caused to the owner. The Minister indicated here a year ago that the Land Commission were about to enter with great enthusiasm into the purchase of land on the public market and take their place with other bidders and intending purchasers. If they are prepared to pay the full market value, let them be the highest bidder. There cannot then be any question of injustice to the land owner or any question of injustice whatever.

In any case where there is serious objection to the Land Commission acquiring land, I should like to see agreement reached rather than to see compulsory powers used. I am glad that in very recent times there is a tendency on the part of the Land Commission to negotiate more reasonably than they did in the past.

We made them pay market prices.

That was due to the fact that the Land Commission were given the right and authority to pay the full market value for the land. On the other hand, it is a safeguard for the interests of the owner of the land. No matter what type of land policy is formulated by any Minister or by the Land Commission, it should always be borne in mind that one of the cherished principles of that policy should be free sale and that any man who wants to sell his land should be allowed to do so.

Coming to the question of land agitation, I join with other Deputies who from time to time have condemned agitation in various forms in connection with the acquisition of land. No group should be allowed to take the law into their own hands in this regard. That has always been the policy on this side of the House, and I want to endorse the view that people should not take the law into their own hands. If they feel they have a genuine grievance, there is a genuine legal remedy. If they are dissatisfied with the Land Commission, with land policy or with the conduct of the Minister for Lands, they have a remedy at the various general elections and an opportunity to make changes. No section of the people, great or small, should be or will be allowed to take the law into their own hands. I trust the Minister will have a word or two to say on that matter when he is replying.

There are various parts of the country where, because of land agitation, hard-working, honest, industrious people are not on speaking terms. Due to the land policy of this Government and to the system, envy, ill-will and spite are carried on from family to family and from generation to generation. If that is so, it must be admitted that there must be some defects in, and something wrong with, a system which has given rise to so much discontent, disunity and uncharitable conduct in many areas. If the Minister goes to the trouble of getting details of the unpleasantness that has occurred in many areas in rural Ireland, he will find that it is caused entirely by land agitation. There is probably no county in the Twenty-Six Counties in which there has not been some form of land agitation in the past which has caused spite, ill-will, discontent and unpleasantness among very decent, hard-working honest citizens.

Where you have a system breeding that kind of discontent in rural Ireland it surely calls for some revision and review. That is why I think, now that there have been in recent years so many cases of unpleasantness in every county, that the time has come when an effort should be made to bring about unity in those areas and create friendship among the parties by a sound and sane land policy.

It is a very serious thing for people to take the law into their own hands; it is something no Government can ignore and no member of this House can tolerate. When we have so many cases of unpleasantness, it must occur to the Land Commission and to the Minister that there is cause for it. The time has come to review the whole position and in doing that, let the principle be to set up as many families as possible on the land and to acquire land for the relief of congestion, and land for creditworthy farmers, even, as I said, on a rented or other basis. I have often wondered why the Land Commission could not set themselves up as an agency to which people anxious to dispose of their land could apply and which would have available, on the other hand, the right type of people to whom to allocate the land.

The Minister received a deputation from the N.F.A. some time ago and, according to Press reports, discussed in great detail the suggested plans of the Bishop of Clonfert in relation to the setting up of a Land Bank. I do not know what the outcome of the discussions was but I know that organisations such as Macra na Feirme and the N.F.A. favoured some policy based on the ideas and suggestions of the Bishop of Clonfert. We have not heard from the Minister whether he has any proposals in that regard or what the outcome of the discussions was, whether he viewed the matter with concern or whether he was prepared to take any action in the matter, having regard to the fact that organisations representative of young farmers such as Macra na Feirme and the N.F.A. took up the matter seriously with him, with the Minister for Agriculture and, if I am not mistaken, with the Taoiseach. Such an important step in regard to the formulation of land policy ought not be allowed to pass without some comment on the occasion of the annual Estimate. This debate should be the occasion for some reasonable comment on that proposal and I should like to hear what the Minister has to say in regard to it.

There has been much talk from time to time on all sides of the House as to what should be the size of an economic holding. In the past, the Land Commission have given very small parcels of land to people, with the result that after some time they were worse off than if they had never got the land. It may have been of a little temporary help to them. Where you have people rearing a family and striving to exist on 17 or 20 or 25 acres of land, if there is no work in the district for the older members of the family to supplement the farm income, they are left in complete misery with no alternative but to leave.

I cannot understand how many families live on 25-acre holding if there is not road work, forestry work or bog development work in the locality to give some of the grown-up members of the family employment and if there is not employment during the slack period of farm work, for the head of the family. I do not see how they can live and pay rent and meet ever-increasing rate demands, as well as having to face falling prices of livestock, the uncertainty of the agricultural market and the downward trend in prices for agricultural produce.

Surely some consideration must be given to the people who are asked to live, or exist, in such circumstances and there are very many such people. There must be Deputies who have an intimate knowledge of people living on 25 or 26 acres and who must take grazing on the 11-months system at very substantial rates. In addition, their tillage land has to be supplemented also at a very high charge and it is for people of that type I appeal, in the hope that either the Minister or the Land Commission will realise that this is a problem that faces every smallholder in rural Ireland.

To give a smallholder of 10 acres an additional five or even 10 acres is no solution of the congestion problem. It might be wise for the Land Commission to have an established policy that no farm or holding under 45 acres would be regarded as economic. That should give sufficient tillage, grazing and meadowland on which the family could at least eke out an existence. But anyone with a knowledge of farming conditions and particularly those who know the livelihoods earned by very small farmers must wonder how they can possibly exist on uneconomic holdings. How many of these people appealed to the Land Commission, in some cases 15 or 20 years ago, but because of pressure of more urgent and important work in various areas, it was not possible to reach their cases? Most of those who are expecting relief from the Land Commission will be long dead and gone and their families will have grown much older by the time we have a land policy implemented here that will give them substantial relief.

The Minister has not made very clear what he thinks of the actual policy of the Land Commission in regard to the size of the economic holding. In my opinion, it ought not be less than 45 acres and at that, the holding should have reasonably good tillage land and sufficient grass to make it possible for the owner to have his own grazing, without having to seek it in the conacre market.

What is the policy of the Land Commission in relation to the acquisition of very large holdings? There has been a suspension of the taking over of very large holdings. A good deal of time, expense and so on, would be involved unless these holdings were acquired by agreement. This Estimate and the future land policy of this Government hold out very little hope for credit-worthy farmers' sons or for the person who is paying a very substantial part of his income year after year for land in conacre.

The Land Commission have not found a solution to that big problem. I understand that in 1956 this matter was under consideration by the then Government. Has the examination of such an important problem in rural Ireland ceased? Can the Minister give us any information as to the result of the investigation?

Private ownership of land must be encouraged. The payment of full market value for land must be encouraged. The law permits the entry of the Land Commission into the public market but that permission has not been fully availed of. Every rural Deputy knows that there are hard-working, industrious, very small holders in his district whose financial position will not permit them to purchase land, while in the same areas very substantial lands are from time to time available on the market.

I recommend that some scheme be put into operation whereby in all these areas, by agreement, the Land Commission will purchase suitable holdings and allocate them in the parish or in the adjoining parish. That would give relief to hard-pressed people who must pay large sums for land on the conacre system. If we must have the long-drawn-out tedious system of acquiring land by compulsion to try to solve our problem, and wind up by pleasing nobody, if we allow months and years to pass in this manner, I fear our young men and women will leave the land and seek alternative employment abroad.

A thriving agricultural policy, hand in hand with a sane and sound land policy, will be our salvation. We are an agricultural country. We can never be converted into an industrial country. Everything we can do, not by the spoken word but by action, should be done to encourage our people to remain on the land. They cannot do so unless they have something to keep them there. Eventually, it comes down to the size of the holding on which a farmer and his family must eke out an existence.

I want to compliment the designers of the new Land Commission houses. They add considerably to the attractiveness of the countryside. I understand that at present these houses are available only in counties Laois and Westmeath. It would be well if Deputies would ask the Land Commission for plans of the modern and very creditable houses they are now erecting. A number of these houses have been built on the main Dublin-Limerick road, near Mountrath. People have stopped to look at them. I hope the Department will continue to build that type of house, particularly on main and county roads. The older type of house provided by the Department was by no means attractive.

The engineering and architectural sections of the Land Commission are to be complimented on the new design of these houses. Can the Minister give us—this also would be a guide to local authorities—the cost of the modern Land Commission house compared with the older design? No matter what the difference, the appearance of the new house, as well as its practical value, is worth the cost. The outoffices are also of a superior standard. They are far more spacious and the general lay-out has been considerably improved. I have inspected a number of these new holdings. If I had any criticism to offer, I would avail of this opportunity to do so. The outoffices in the new type of residence are worthy of favourable comment.

The Minister tells us that in the past year 5,350 holdings were vested. I do not know the position in relation to each county but the vesting of 5,000 holdings in a year is reasonably good progress. Again, I would ask the Minister if it is possible to increase the vesting staff so that vesting may be speeded up. The vesting of holdings is certainly of very great importance to counties like Mayo, but judging by Iris Oifigiúil, when it is published every three or four days, it appears that the vesting orders are particularly for county Mayo. It may be that there are more small holdings to be vested in county Mayo than in any other county. It is right to vest them. Nevertheless, I should like to know what the figures for the vesting of holdings are in relation to each county. I feel that information can readily be made available.

I am glad to see that the Minister is taking steps with regard to game preservation. The preservation of our game is of the greatest possible importance. It adds considerably to the attractiveness of our tourist industry. I hope to have a word to say about the preservation of our game when the Estimate for Forestry comes up for discussion. As I say, the preservation of games is of very great importance. It has been neglected in the past and I am glad that reference was made to it on this Estimate. I trust it will occupy a very important place in the formulation of future policy.

I wonder why county committees of agriculture have not taken a keener interest but I suppose that when the lead was not given by the Department of Lands, it was too much to expect the lead to come from the bottom. I cannot stress too much the importance of the preservation of our game. County committees of agriculture ought actively to interest themselves in this matter and the friendly spirit of co-operation of the N.F.A., Macra na Feirme, Muintir na Tíre and other public-spirited movements should be solicited. I am sure it will be readily forthcoming in a general reorganised scheme for game protection and game development. Agricultural and sporting interests ought to be got together.

The general development of our game is something that deserves the active attention of the Department of Lands. It is something that ought not to be taken too easily or too lightly. I appreciate what the Land Commission have done in that regard. It is a little and I hope it is not too late. When the Forestry Estimate comes up for discussion, the Department will hear a little from us in that regard. I trust that there will be general co-operation between the Land Commission, the Forestry Department and the sporting and agricultural associations to which I referred concerning the development and preservation of our game.

The Minister made reference to the state of affairs prevailing in the Shannon Valley. He reported that a considerable sum of money was spent. I agree that a considerable sum of money was spent but will that prevent the flooding? I feel that in regard to the Shannon flooding, the amount of money spent by the Land Commission will probably make it easier for livestock to escape a fatal end during heavy flooding but I am very doubtful, from what I have seen in the Shannon Valley, if, when the Shannon is again at high water, the work already done on high land will prevent a recurrence of what has been taking place there over the past 20 years.

I know that there are a number of people in the Shannon Valley who were offered holdings and who will not go. Nobody likes leaving the home where he was born and where his parents, grandparents and great-grandparents lived. If they feel they are in a place of safety, that is their own business but I really think that portions of good land ought to be made available for them in districts within easy reach of the Shannon Valley. There are many such districts along the Shannon. The farmers in the area would be more concerned with the spending of this money on some means to prevent a recurrence of the flooding.

In the constituency I represent, the areas principally concerned are the parishes of Shannonbridge, Banagher, Lusmagh and the district round Shannon Harbour. Unfortunately, the scheme designed by the Land Commission to give relief does not include those areas of county Offaly. That is why I ask that even that scheme should be considerably reviewed. The farmers in the Shannon Valley district of the parish of Lusmagh ought to be included and given the benefits of whatever scheme is devised. I cannot see this money rendering any really useful service to the farmers in that area, if more serious flooding occurs. In some ways the money may have helped considerably. The measures taken by the Land Commission may be appreciated by some. I am sure they are very grateful for what has been done but it certainly will not prevent a recurrence of the flooding.

The Land Commission have a scheme in mind in this regard. I have often wondered whether it would not be much better to devote some of the money which was spent on the scheme to the removal of the islands and obstructions in the Shannon. There is a substantial amount of money available in the National Development Fund for spending and if the Land Commission are interested in the plight of the farmers in the Shannon Valley, instead of building outoffices in the midst of flooded districts, would it not be better to remove the main obstructions and islands in the Shannon rather than reinforce the foundations which one day will again be covered with water?

That is why I feel the money could have been better spent. Could some of this money not have been spent by the Land Commission, in co-operation with the E.S.B., on some type of remedy in respect of the extraordinary weir at Meelick? The Land Commission would be well advised to act in greater co-operation with the other interests in relation to the Shannon flooding. Because of the very small use for the weir at Meelick at the present time and because of the erection of a number of power stations and the other means by which electricity can now be generated, ought we not consider that the weir has now become obsolete? If the weir were attended to, one of the causes of flooding of the Shannon which so distresses the farmers in the area would be immediately remedied.

I recommend to the Land Commission that they should examine that proposal in co-operation with the E.S.B., the Office of Public Works and the Shannon navigation people.

The distress caused in the Shannon Valley, which has been referred to by the Minister, will continue until effective measures are carried out. I have often wondered why the Land Commission have not included in their scheme some means by which that distress can be further relieved. Every time serious flooding affects the area, there are appeals for fodder, hay, food for livestock. There may be considerable loss of livestock. There never seems to be a penny made available to replace anything lost. I have often wondered why the Land Commission do not set aside a certain sum for the purpose of rehabilitating people in their holdings after flooding. These people do not want to leave their holdings and it is not right to compel a man to leave his land or force him out of his holding.

I suggest that a sum of money be provided for that purpose by the Land Commission to be administered by a committee representative of the county councils of Leitrim, Westmeath, Roscommon, Galway, Offaly, North Tipperary and Clare. If these county councils agreed to strike a rate of 1d. in the £, it would bring in £1,000 from each of these counties. That could be supplemented by a similar sum of money provided by the Land Commission out of the National Development Fund. In that way, considerable relief could be provided for the people whose livestock are endangered and whose own lives are endangered during very severe flooding. I make that suggestion in the hope that the Land Commission will give it their consideration. The problem is grave and can be solved only by the exercise of commonsense in the spending of public money and acting upon the best engineering advice obtainable.

We are all deeply concerned about the drift from the land. This House should concern itself not merely with keeping our people at home but with keeping them on the land. Our land needs more workers if it is to be properly and fully developed. It is capable of supporting a greater population than it does at the present time. I trust that as a result of the contributions from all sides of the House, the Minister will realise that, in face of the radical decline in the population of rural Ireland, the time has come for measures of a drastic and ruthless character.

It is within the powers of the Government to formulate a suitable policy to remedy the deplorable decline in the rural population by setting up on the land credit-worthy people who are not afraid of hard work, not afraid to work from sunrise until night, who will be prepared to marry and live in rural Ireland and to bring up their families in accordance with Christian decency, if given an opportunity to do so. The first opportunity they require is a holding of a size they can live on. The Land Commission have a function in moulding a suitable, progressive, modern land policy that will meet the economic difficulties of rural Ireland.

The Minister, being a rational human being, ought to be as alive to the requirements of rural Ireland in this regard as any other Deputy. The policy of the Government in relation to land acquisition, distribution and congestion calls for review and investigation. The problem has not been tackled. It is high time there was an implementation of an up-to-date, speedy policy, not a policy designed to give results in 5 to 15 years but one that will give results for credit-worthy farmers' sons who are now anxious to marry and who are not in a position to purchase holdings. They are the type of people we want to help. They are the type of people the Land Commission do not seem to be too eager to assist. They are the type of people on whom the future of the country entirely depends.

I recommend that the Land Commission should get down to work in this connection and that the Minister should consult his colleagues in the Government, that they should examine their consciences in relation to the land question. They should realise the benefits that can be obtained from an up-to-date land policy based on the principle of keeping our people working on the land, happy and contented on their holdings.

The Estimate for the Department of Lands affords an opportunity to put before the Minister the many grievances of persons in the country areas. Unfortunately, the Ministers appointed to this Department, in this Government and in the previous Government, come from county Mayo, in the heart of the congested districts. They may be noble gentlemen but they are bound to be biased by the conditions they see in their own areas and the counties to which the allottees come are sadly neglected. I should prefer to have as Minister for Lands an independent person who did not come from the congested districts, so that there would be unbiased allocation of land. I am not saying that against this Minister or the previous Minister. Human nature is very weak and when a man sees problems around him, these are the problems which he wants to solve and he forgets that there are problems in other places.

The Land Commission have been operating for 40 years and the Congested Districts Board were working for as long before that. We have not seen the end of land division. That is not to our credit. A vast amount of money should have been spent on land acquisition, the clearance of rural slums and the placing of people on the land. Progress is altogether too slow. That work should be speeded up until the major portion of land division is completed so that the Land Commission can close down the different wings in that area.

No matter what the Minister may have said in his opening statement, a new approach is needed. It is a disgrace that farmers' sons, the cream of the land, not only the cream of the land today but for the past 500 or 600 years, are denied an acre of land in their own country. If a farm is put up for sale in my constituency, no farmer's son can purchase it. That is where the Land Commission have failed. They should have taken up these farms instead of allowing outsiders to come in and buy them. Any fairminded person knows that is wrong and the Minister must know it is wrong.

There is concern about the relief of congestion in the west of Ireland but you will not relieve congestion by putting people into little holdings here and there. In any case, I should like to know what is a congest. Does it mean that a man with one, two, or three acres of land in the midst of a number of people is entitled to get 40 acres of land in some other county? Most of the people coming to my county from congested areas can get roughly 37 acres of land, with a good house and two good outoffices. No Meath man can get that. It would be far better if industries were established in these congested areas to absorb those people instead of moving them to other counties to create a problem there. A new approach is needed so that justice will be done all round.

We talk about the revival of the Irish language. As far as I can see, the Minister is scattering the Irish speakers from the west of Ireland all over the country. Many of them are brought to county Meath and put here and there and they will never speak the language because they have no one to whom to speak it. It is a colossal blunder for one Minister to be trying to preserve the language and for another Minister to be trying to kill it. Most of those migrants were good Irish speakers, getting a grant of £5 as Irish-speaking families. If the language is to be preserved, these people should be put in Irish colonies, but it appears the Government do not give a damn about the language.

I do not think a discussion on the Irish language would be relevant.

That is all I have to say on the subject. I have no objection to the relief of congestion in a reasonable way. The type of migrant being brought up from the different counties is satisfactory. These migrants work their holdings well; they are good citizens and we are all proud of them, even thought I am one of those who said a different thing 20 years ago; the people coming up now are a more industrious type of people. My only complaint is that we have a problem in our county in that we must look after our own people first. I ask the Minister to review the situation to see what can be done to provide farmers' sons with land. I do not expect every farmer's son to get land, but it should be possible to allocate a certain amount on a lease or allotment basis.

Many of these young men, farmers' sons, go to Warrenstown College and elsewhere to equip themselves as farmers and then come back to their own county in the hope of being able to purchase land. When they discover this is not possible, they look for their passport and we never see them again. It is very unfair to see seven or eight men coming up from other counties and being provided with a new house, a fine farm and two good outoffices, while the farmers' sons in the neighbourhood are denied a hearing. But for the fact that we are the type of people we are and that we ask our people to keep quite, telling them that agitation will get them nowhere, there would be almost a revolution in every county where there is land division to-day. It is the good sense of the parish priest, the curates and the parishioners that there is not a burning agitation that could get out of control. However, we have a Christian outlook and believe we ought to live within the laws as they are passed in this House. The Bishop of Cork and other members of the Hierarchy have called on the Government to do something for the small farmers' sons and the Government should give serious consideration to the question.

In the allocation of land, whether to migrants or others, there is not enough care taken at the start. A man is given, say, 37 acres of land but when he comes up to the holding, he finds that half of it is waterlogged and choked with rushes. There was a farm divided some years ago in Dunboyne and the men who got that land got about 38 acres of rushes each and could not find a place to grow grass at all. The very same occurred on another estate in Porterstown. The allottees found the land waterlogged with no outlet whatsoever, due to the fact that the tributaries of the river were not cleaned up. The county council had no authority to do it; the Board of Works would not do it; and the allotment holders could not do it themselves.

Barr
Roinn