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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 12 Jul 1960

Vol. 183 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Oil Burners (Standards) Bill, 1960—Second Stage

I move that the Bill be read a Second Time.

Deputies will probably remember that, some time ago, there was a certain amount of public disquiet here and in Britain because of the fire hazards associated with particular types of oil heaters. There were, unfortunately, a number of fatal accidents in Britain which emphasised the necessity to examine this problem at once. Many of the oil heaters which are in use in this country have been imported from Britain, and some contain features which are recognised as representing a fire hazard in certain conditions of operation.

I have had under consideration for some time past the action which might best be taken here to deal with the fire hazard associated with oil heaters, and I have had the benefit of discussions with assemblers, importers and distributors of oil heaters. The action taken in Britain in this matter has, of course, been helpful in our consideration of the problems associated with the use of these heaters. It will be recalled, perhaps, that a report on oil heaters was furnished to the British Government in March of this year by the British Joint Fire Research Organisation. Subsequent to this, a British Standard Specification was prescribed for oil heaters, and a Bill is now going through Parliament, the effect of which will be to prohibit the sale of dangerous oil heaters in Britain.

While the danger attaching to the use of oil heaters can, perhaps, be exaggerated, nevertheless, I think that the situation is one which requires action on the part of the Government. We appear to have had very few accidents resulting from the use of these heaters, but it must be recognised that under certain operating conditions, some of these heaters do represent a serious fire hazard, and the public interest requires that whatever corrective action may be possible ought to be taken as soon as practicable. A situation is likely to develop in which large numbers of sub-standard oil heaters manufactured in Britain the sale of which will henceforth be prohibited in Britain will become available for export markets.

It would be a very unfortunate development if large numbers of defective oil heaters were imported and sold to the public here. I am sure that the introduction of this Bill will make it clear that the Government intend to take action to deal with the types of oil heaters which represent a fire hazard, and importers and firms engaged in the manufacture or assembly of oil heaters here will be expected to make sure that the heaters which they are placing on the market are of a safe type and do not incorporate the features which have made some of these heaters a hazard to human life and property.

The broad effect of the Bill will be to empower the Minister for Industry and Commerce to make regulations requiring that oil heaters which are offered for sale comply with an approved specification which will ensure that the risk of fire will be eliminated as far as possible. There will be a requirement to attach to oil heaters instructions about their use so that the public will be properly informed about the correct use of these heaters. There will, also, be a requirement that heaters should have attached to them an indication that they comply with the specification prescribed by the Act. This will facilitate the purchasing public, since it will be an easy matter for persons to assure themselves that an oil heater which they propose to purchase complies with the approved specification.

I do not think that for the present it is necessary to do more than to give the Bill a Second Reading. The trade and the public will be aware of what is proposed in this measure, and they will have noticed that, subject to the approval of the Oireachtas, the remaining stages of the Bill will be taken after the summer recess. I will endeavour to ensure that a draft of the specification will be prepared as soon as possible, and copies will be made available to all interested parties. It will obviously be of assistance to manufacturers and the trade generally to have a copy of the draft specification in their hands at the earliest possible moment, so that whatever arrangements may be necessary may be put in hands to meet the situation which will be created when the Bill becomes law towards the end of the year. I am sure that traders generally will be conscious of their responsibilities in the intervening period.

Apart from the heavy financial losses which would be likely to result from stocking heaters which will have become unsaleable on the enactment of the Bill, the sale of defective heaters may involve traders in difficulties in relation to the Sale of Goods Act. Furthermore, traders who supply dangerous heaters expose themselves to the risk of an action for damages in the event that personal injury or material damage results from the use of such heaters.

I think that it is important that the dangers associated with the use of oil heaters should not be exaggerated. Indeed, we cannot be unmindful of the fact that accidents are frequently associated with the use of gas fires, electric heaters and coal fires, and they can arise in many other ways as well. The exercise of reasonable care by everyone is probably the most important factor in accident prevention, and this is especially true in the home where unfortunately so many accidents occur.

I hope that the proposals contained in this Bill will be acceptable to the House and that there will be general agreement concerning the course of action which is proposed.

As the Minister said, this Bill will generally be approved. It represents what might be described as desirable legislation which the House can consider in a completely non-political manner and which depends to a considerable extent on the co-operation of all sections to see that it is properly and efficiently implemented. This matter has received very considerable publicity in Britain. The British Home Secretary considered a report furnished by the Joint Fire Research Organisation and I think other reports that had been made to his Department. As a result, legislation is before the British Parliament.

This is only one of a variety of desirable pieces of legislation which might be enacted to deal with accidents which occur and which in many cases could be avoided if the public were properly instructed and informed of the dangers. In this country, so far, very few cases have occurred due to defective oil-burning heaters but, as the Minister remarked, fires occur from time to time which could be avoided if proper precautions were taken. While it may not be a matter for the Minister for Industry and Commerce, in considering a measure of this sort we are entitled to take into account accidents which occur in other spheres of activity. I am thinking particularly of accidents where tractors are involved or where defective electrical appliances are concerned.

Accidents sometimes occur because the people concerned are not properly trained in the driving of tractors or are not obliged to pass any test which would justify them in having a licence to drive a tractor. Quite a number of fatal accidents could have been avoided. Similarly, fatal accidents have occurred because people dealt with electrical wires or electrical appliances without any training or certainly without adequate training and without taking the essential precautions which trained personnel would take as a matter of course.

It seems to me that these are just two cases which in relation to legislation of this kind might be considered. So far as this measure is concerned, we approve entirely of the proposal which will, as the Minister said, focus attention on the dangers involved. Specific regulations will be drafted before the remaining Stages of the Bill are taken and any amendments or alterations which are desirable can be considered in the meantime.

As Deputy Cosgrave says, this is a Bill which is eminently suited for objective discussion. There are two points which I think require attention. We agree with the proposal to take precautionary measures to prevent fire hazards arising from oil burners. As Deputy Cosgrave says, the whole question of fire hazards must not be overlooked. We are taking precautions today against a very limited sphere of these hazards.

I want to submit to the Minister that, having put his hand so promptly to this particular type of fire hazard, he ought really to turn his mind to another fire hazard of a closely analogous kind which I think constitutes a far more formidable threat, that is, the hazard of highly inflammable material of which light clothes are apparently manufactured. The Minister pointed out that the number of accidents we have here from oil stoves is very few. That is something upon which we can congratulate ourselves.

There has been a great deal of publicity in England about the accidents resulting from defective oil burners there. Possibly the Minister's attention was directed recently to a medical congress in England where it was pointed out that more than 50 per cent. of third degree burns which are brought to British hospitals derive from children and women having their night attire set on fire owing to the highly inflammable materials from which the attire is manufactured.

I understand that up to recently it was hard to provide against that but that now there are very few, if any, fabrics which cannot be impregnated with a suitable medium which renders the fabric indistinguishable from the original material but at the same time non-inflammable. I do not think it would constitute any serious hardship on the manufacturers if persons offering flannelette and certain artificial fabrics made them non-inflammable before selling them to distributors. I can conceive of certain retail interests complaining that they should have the right to have access to supplies of untreated materials of this character but I would be prepared to recommend to the Minister that such a claim should be denied. People may claim to have the right to distribute live cartridges and guns but we do not hesitate to restrict that right because generally to distribute such things constitutes a hazard to the public out of all proportion to the advantage of the individual dealer who wishes to handle them promiscuously.

I think that the horrible character of the burns sustained by people whose clothing takes fire is great enough to justify us in restricting access to such materials in the way which I now suggest. While I do not want to belittle the Minister's Bill, I believe that reform on the lines suggested by me would be a very much more valuable contribution to the public welfare than the Oil Burners (Standards) Bill. It is to be borne in mind that the hazards with which this Bill deals largely consist of the destruction of premises. That is a matter against which insurance can be purchased. The fire hazard I have described in connection with inflammable night clothes is of a character that no insurance can cover because it involves grave personal injury and very often it is of a gravely disfiguring and crippling kind.

The second matter I want to deal with arises, first, under Section 3 of this Bill. It provides:

If any person in the course of a business sells, or lets under a hire-purchase agreement or on hire, or has in his possession for the purpose of selling or letting, an oil heater...

The same proviso is reproduced in sub-section (2) of that section in relation to component parts of an oil heater. I think that goes too far. There still survives in this country a considerable body of respectable citizens who have a deep antipathy to finding themselves in violation of the statute law. Quite apart from the penalties provided in the Bill, they do not want to find themselves successfully prosecuted for a breach of the law. Therefore, you should not make the law of such a kind that no rational creature can comply with it. If there is any Deputy who has any experience of the hardware trade, he will know that in the course of a year's trading, you will accumulate a considerable quantity of spare parts. From time to time, you go through that stock and weed out those spares that have become obsolete and you throw them out or destroy them.

In a country hardware business especially you are liable to find spares which have been there for 18 months or two years and which have not been carefully gone through recently. Under this Bill, if a spare part of a condemned type of oil burner is on your shelf, you are guilty of an offence. I think that is going too far. I think it is right to provide that if you sell the spare part of a defective burner or sell a defective burner, you are guilty of an offence but nobody only one who is extremely negligent or recklessly careless would deliberately sell or pass through his hands a prohibited article within the meaning of this Bill without having his attention drawn to what he was doing.

It is not uncommon for a conscientious shopkeeper to have a spare part which does not comply with the requirements of the Bill. He should not be made guilty of a criminal offence for having such a spare part. I think a suitable remedy for that would be to provide that if any person in the course of business sells, or lets under a hire-purchase agreement or on hire an oil heater which does not comply with the safety standards, he shall be guilty of an offence and if any person has in his possession for the purpose of selling such an oil heater or component part thereof after 1st January, 1961, he shall be guilty of an offence.

The Minister may say to me that if a man makes the defence that he had the part but not for the purpose of selling it, I assure him that that kind of defence is hard to sustain in public courts. The substance of my case is that people should be given due notice and a fair time to put their house in order. Then, if some conscientious person has failed to do that, having being given due notice and fair time to clear out any obsolete part in stock, it is his own funeral if he is subsequently charged and convicted under this Bill. But he ought to get time to go through his stock and get notice of what he has to do before he can become an offender within the terms of this Bill.

On the third point I want to make I want to refer to subsection (3) of Section 3, paragraph (b) where it is set out that it is a good defence, in regard to the sale of an oil heater prohibited under the terms of this Bill, to say that the vendor believed that the oil heater would not be used in the State. I do not think that should be a good defence. If you have an oil heater on your premises which you now know to constitute a hazard to anybody who uses it, I do not think that you should have the right to sell it for use in Spain, Devonshire or France on the ground that if you burn a Spaniard, a Frenchman or a Briton that is no concern of the Government of the Irish Republic. I think it is. I imagine that this has been put in at the instance of some zealous trade association for the protection of its members. I have sympathy with the zeal of the organisation which made this proposal but on reflection I do not think this Legislature will wish to go on record as saying it is a good defence in regard to the sale of an oil burner which constitutes a serious fire hazard to say that we sold it to a Spaniard, a Frenchman or a resident of Great Britain.

The last point I want to make is in regard to a matter which I have no doubt relates more appropriately to drafting rather than to the substance of the Bill. A long association with the Committee of Public Accounts and with colleagues whom I shall not describe as pedantic but with colleagues who were exacting in their demands on the draftsmen, leads me to examine Section 2 critically. The section says:

The Minister may by regulations provide——

(a) for requiring oil heaters of such class or description...

and so on, and

(b) requiring oil heaters of such class or description as may be so specified to bear by means of such a label...

Why is it appropriate to declare that regulations may be made "for requiring" oil heaters in paragraph (a) and in (b) just "requiring oil heaters" and in (c) "for any other matter for which regulations are authorised under this Act"? Does paragraph (b) require re-drafting? If so, I have no doubt it will be within the competence of the Minister to secure it.

This is a simple Bill and I welcome it. I have a little experience in this matter because I stock articles such as these, calor gas and so on. I have seen these heaters working and I realise the dangers involved in their use. With all these different classes of heaters, the extent of the danger depends on who is handling them. An expert can handle a faulty heater without risk. The danger arises when women and children come to handle them. With a faulty heater you may get flames a foot high and that is what we are trying to guard against. Even with a primus stove, if the burner is faulty you may get a flame three or four feet high which could set fire to a house. There is a danger with all these heaters and some kind of control is called for.

I sympathise with the vendors and people who have large stocks of heaters. They should have some kind of safeguard. I do not think it should be an offence to sell heaters if they are marked "secondhand". The vendors have a way out. They can dump them in the auction rooms and then I assume it would not be an offence because generally everything at an auction is faulty, whether it is an electrical or a gas fitting. They should have that escape or otherwise a tremendous amount of loss will be incurred.

I agree that there should be some control. However, there is another danger which I think is greater than that of oil heaters and that is the electric fire. Some such fires have proper guards. Some of them have several wires some distance from the actual bar but others have only a single wire which is not more than a quarter of an inch from the bar. Such electric heaters cause more fires and tragedies than oil heaters, especially among women who wear long clothes. This happens particularly to those who wear the new balloon type of dress. When they move towards the fire, perhaps, to look at themselves in a mirror, the dress goes right in on top of the fire. That has happened to children and girls who have been burned to death when their long frocks are set aflame.

They are short now.

On one occasion I saw a woman in a shop and although she was a foot distant from the electric fire, when she bent down to pick up something her long skirt swung into the fire and was set alight. That happened because there was no protection. Every electric fire should have a proper guard with a number of wires in front of the bar, not a single wire. In other words the fire should have a guard which would be such that even if clothing comes in contact with it the clothing will be a sufficient distance from the bar not to catch fire.

Would it not be better to make clothes non-inflammable?

You may not be able to do that because you cannot control what women will buy, but you can control the manufacture of electric fires. On the subject of hazards, I often intended to raise a question here in regard to the hazards of gas. Tragedies occur week after week through gas explosions. Do the gas companies periodically examine these fittings? They do not, so far as I am aware, and people are carted away regularly as a result of slow poisoning from gas. The gas companies should be compelled to examine their apparatus because gas is a source of great danger. In fact, we hear of only occasional accidents involving oil heaters, but we hear of accidents involving gas practically every week of the year. Electric fires are another source of accidents so I ask the Minister when this question of hazards is being considered, to consider also the hazards from gas and electric fires.

I also ask him to agree that it should be permissible to sell the heaters if they are marked distinctly as being secondhand, because the dealers have to get rid of their stocks some way. As I have said, if they cannot sell them, they will put them in the auction rooms. All sorts of things find their way to auction rooms and I have even seen guns there which if found in a person's hand would probably lead to prosecution. We should at least stipulate that the heaters may be sold if they are marked "secondhand" or "risky" or marked in some way. May I suggest again that when the Minister is considering fire hazards he should consider all the hazards and not just one?

I welcome the Bill. In my native city, we are on the threshold of the establishment of a major industry for the manufacture of these oil burners and I am sure that industry will be helped to a good start by this Bill. Naturally, they will comply with the provisions of the Bill and they will be ahead of the other industries across the Channel. I wish them every success.

I am glad the Bill has been accepted in such an objective manner by the House and that the need for this legislation has been seen, as it must have been seen by anyone who took seriously the reports we have received from across the Channel in recent months. The necessity for the Bill at this very moment, and the reason for its being restricted to oil burners, arises from the danger of oil burners which do not conform with British standard specifications but which have been manufactured in Britain being put on sale in this country.

It would perhaps have been possible to deal with this matter in another way, by the imposition of a prohibitive tariff, but on consideration, it was realised that that was not really the function of a tariff. Therefore, when we learned that certain steps were being taken in the British Parliament to deal with the problem in that country, we felt we could not ignore the possibility of many of these oil heaters, which might now prove to be defective in Britain, finding their way into our market, and it was decided to take action on the lines proposed in this Bill to ensure that adequate notice will be given, first of all, to the trade which might, in the ordinary course of business, think of stocking these oil heaters in preparation for the winter trade and, secondly, to give adequate notice to the public that a certain type of oil heater was unsafe and would be required to conform to certain standards.

It is the intention to publish immediately to the trade, and in fact to all interests concerned, the standards which will be on the lines of the British standard specifications so that at the earliest moment the trade will know the type of oil heaters and component parts that it will ultimately be illegal for them to sell in their establishments.

I quite agree with Deputy Cosgrave, and other Deputies who referred to the subject, that there are hazards in other forms of heaters, be they gas heaters, electric heaters or ordinary open fires, and that the best way to ensure that the hazards will not arise is for the ordinary person to take care, but despite the best conditions, the best will in the world, and the taking of the greatest care, fires will inevitably occur. However, this Bill is limited to dealing with a problem which may become urgent by reason of the action being taken in Britain, and for that reason it is being limited to this particular problem.

I might mention, and in fact, it is well known, that a Bill is in course of preparation—and quite considerable progress has been made—to amend or replace the Industrial Research and Standards Acts 1946 and 1954. The Bureau of Research and Standards is being reconstituted. Further facilities are being provided for research work and work which is preliminary to deciding the standard specifications of certain commodities. In that Bill, there will be a provision to provide that where the Minister is satisfied it is necessary in the public interest, he may by Order prescribe in relation to a commodity that it shall be an offence to manufacture, assemble, import or sell that commodity unless it complies with the standard specifications set out in the Order. In a short time, we shall have a means of providing safety standards for further commodities as the need is shown to arise.

The problem of clothing taking fire was dealt with recently in the report of a committee which was set up in Britain by the President of the Board of Trade on Consumer Protection. The problem of inflammable clothing material was specifically dealt with, and the conclusion reached was that it would not be practical at that stage, at any rate, to prescribe that fabrics should by statute be flame-resistant. It was admitted that the idea had some appeal, but the committee found that by reason of the fact that, on washing, flame-resistant fabrics lose their—I do not want to be positive on this—flame-resistant qualities, it would not be of much advantage to prescribe that flame-resistant fabrics should be so described, and that it should be an offence to sell flame-resistant fabrics which were so described because of the possibility of their losing, in a short time, those qualities as of that particular time at any rate. It was only in April of this year that this report was presented to the President of the Board of Trade. The committee which examined the problem decided that nothing need necessarily be done at that stage because of the practical difficulties involved.

Is the Minister referring to impregnating clothes? Is he speaking of textiles?

Yes. There is apparently an Act in existence in Britain entitled the Fabrics (Misdescription) Act, 1913. Regulations have been made in 1959 under that Act, and this report dealt with the Act from the point of view of fabrics being described as flame-resistant which ultimately lose those qualities in ordinary washing. Therefore, they found there was a certain difficulty in imposing a statutory condition requiring such fabrics to be described as "flame-resistant" because of the danger of their losing that quality after washing. I shall refer the Deputy to the Report, dated April, 1960, which should be available to him.

Another point made by Deputy Dillion referred to the shopkeeper who in the ordinary course of business has certain spare parts and who, perhaps quite unconsciously, might retain those parts in stock, even though they would now come within the ambit of a regulation prohibiting their sale. Such parts can be exempted under the regulations, and I would refer the Deputy to subsection (5) of Section 3 which authorises the Minister to insert provisions in the regulations "as appear to the Minister necessary or expedient for authorising the sale, letting or possession of oil heaters or component parts manufactured before the coming into operation of the regulations...". Therefore, the Deputy will see that there is already provision in the Bill to exempt in the regulations such parts as those to which he has referred. The other point made by the Deputy in reference to the drafting was quite right, and I can assure him that will be taken care of when the Bill is going through the Committee Stage in the autumn.

Deputy Cosgrave mentioned tractor accidents and suggested that, perhaps, preventive measures might come within the power of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I am sure the Deputy will have seen that recently a symposium on farm machinery was conducted by the Agricultural Institute. I, personally, was happy to note that one of the subjects discussed, and on which I am sure appropriate action will be taken by the proper authorities, was the safety in operation of farm machinery. I feel sure also that they had very close to their minds the number of accidents that have occurred in recent times resulting from the use of tractors on both farms and highways.

In regard to the points made by Deputy Sherwin, I think they would be covered by what I said in regard to amending legislation to enable the Bureau of Research and Standards to deal with commodities that may be put on sale generally.

I should like to say in reply to Deputy Coogan that the type of oil burner to be manufactured in Galway will not be the same type as referred to in this Bill. The oil heaters to be manufactured there will be much larger and to some extent will be like the type used in the central heating of a house. They will not be the small mobile oil heater envisaged in this Bill.

Will it be lawful to sell by auction those heaters which do not comply with the terms of the Bill? Will it be lawful to sell them secondhand?

They will have to scrap them then?

In that case, the seller will be the person who sends them to an auction, and he will be liable to prosecution under the Bill.

I overlooked one point made by Deputy Dillon in regard to subsection (3) of Section 3, the selling of such oil heaters as a person reasonably believed would not be used in this State. I should like to put to the Deputy the case of a manufacturer of such a heater in this country who is given an order by somebody in France, say, to manufacture a line of oil heaters which satisfies certain specifications in France but not those in Ireland. I suggest that in those circumstances it would be proper for that manufacturer or the dealer to fulfil that order so long as the heater complied with French specifications, and to delete a provision like that might affect, at least to some extent, the export of certain lines of manufacture in this country.

I want to suggest to the Minister if I may, first, that I have a doubt as to the wisdom of leaving this Bill over until the autumn, because I think it is a standing invitation to anybody with defective oil heaters to sell them to innocent persons. I do not see how we can stand over that. Secondly, I do not think a young industrial country can afford to manufacture, even at the behest of a foreign purchaser, a dangerously defective apparatus.

The Minister has as much knowledge as I have of countries like Morocco, Ghana and Libya. If some unscrupulous person in these sovereign States asks us to produce a dangerous commodity, the resulting injury to Ireland would be very great if that commodity turned up in a foreign country with our trade mark upon it. I need only remind the Minister of what happened recently in Morocco where the surplus stocks of a Government were disposed of under full warning to the people who got them that they were to be used only for a certain purpose and ended up in the deaths of dozens and dozens of people. All the bad publicity went back, not to the dealers who improperly sold these surplus stock, but to the Government which, as is known to most people, had made the most stringent reservations about their use. I do not think it fits our book at all to make provision for the sale of oil burners which, by our own experience, constitute a fire hazard. Even if a foreign purchaser asks us to undertake that, I think we do ourselves a great injustice.

Take the case mentioned by Deputy Coogan, who points out that a large industry is to be established for the manufacture of oil burners of an entirely new design which has been proved in international tests to constitute no hazard at all. Suppose some gimcrack establishment in some other centre in Ireland proceeds to sell in the foreign market of the Galway factory defective apparatus, I see a situation arising in which oil burners from Ireland will be regarded as extremely dangerous and people in the foreign market will be warned not to touch them. I suggest the Minister ought to look at that proviso again. There seems to be no justification for it.

May I ask the Minister is there not a danger of a clearance sale, that these defective heaters will be put on the market at quarter cost between now and the autumn?

Inevitably there will be a certain amount of stock in the country—I am certain of that—and you would have to measure the hazard against the hardship that would be caused to traders who have certain stocks. As far as the time for the enactment of the Bill is concerned, I have already caused to be issued a public warning as to the danger of certain oil burners and reminding traders, who might have sold them notwithstanding the pending introduction of legislation, of their obligations under the Sale of Goods Act. The purpose of the legislation is to ensure that any oil burners that might be imported between now and perhaps October— when the trade in the sale of these goods might be expected to be resumed —would fulfil the required specifications. Sufficient warning has been given, not only by the statement to which I have referred but by the introduction of this Bill and almost at once there will be circulated to all the interests concerned — assemblers, traders and others—a copy of the specification, with which they will be expected to comply.

As I have pointed out there is provision in Section 3 (5) for exceptional regulations to be made in respect of heaters and component parts already in stock, but traders who will, perhaps, feel that they have the opportunity of getting from Britain a cheap range of these heaters will know that these regulations will come into force when the time comes in the ordinary way for these goods to be sold on the market. It will by then, I hope, have become an offence and we shall be in a position—in the event of their importing between now and then any range of oil heaters which are now described as defective in Britain—through examining the invoices to decide exactly when these heaters were imported here. The traders now know that they will import and sell these goods, when the time for selling them arrives, at their peril.

I shall look into the point Deputy Dillon has made in regard to paragraph (b) Section 3 (3) to which he objects. He has made a good point but there is perhaps the other view which I have put to him. However I think it is a point worth further investigation and I promise to have it investigated before the Committee Stage is presented to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Would the Minister consider taking the Committee and Final Stages next week, making the 1st September as the specific date on which the Bill will come into operation? That would rather abridge the period. If the Minister leaves the Final Stages over to the 26th October it looks as if it would not be law—by the time the Seanad has dealt with it—until, say, the beginning of December, which is a pretty long time away. Would the Minister consider ordering the Committee Stage for next week? He can consider meanwhile whether he will actually take it next week or on the 26th October.

Is it likely now that we shall sit next week?

If we do not, we can hardly take the Bill. I think it is almost certain that we shall sit next week.

I shall agree to the Deputy's suggestion.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 19th July, 1960.
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