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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Jul 1960

Vol. 183 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 3—Department of the Taoiseach (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputy Dillon.)

I was saying that sometimes greater production does not always have the desired effect or produce the right results. There is a perfect example of that in wheat and in beet. Many farmers that I know have continued to produce more and more wheat and more and more beet especially over the last two years only to discover that the crop was overproduced.

There are examples where greater production has caused difficulties in industry as well. As a matter of fact the Minister for Industry and Commerce received a deputation of workers recently with regard to the production of anthracite coal. Here was a situation where management and workers combined to give greater production only to find they had stocks on their hands of which they could not dispose. Workers were laid off. That has happened in many other branches of industry and until we can tackle a situation like that there is no use in our exhorting certain workers and industrialists to give us greater production.

I spoke a minute ago about generous assistance to agriculture being misdirected and asked the Taoiseach to review the position. I think the same could be said in respect of industry. Again, it is the case that it is the big man with the financial resources who is most able to avail of grants given by the State. I think there should be a new deal for the small man so that grants in his case, whether they be for the renewal of machinery or the reconstruction or extension of premises, could easily be availed of by him for those purposes.

There seems to be a cloud of secrecy, as far as the Government is concerned, with regard to the Shannon development area. Whether the Government has extensive responsibility for this area or not I do not know. Perhaps those Deputies who represent that part of the country know a lot about it. I wish they would tell us because I know very little except for the various reports in the newspapers to the effect that some chap from Belgium or Germany, Japan or somewhere else is to establish a factory there.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

There is not much I want to say but I would appreciate if the Taoiseach could give us some information. Or perhaps the Minister for Transport, who has had a lot to do with the Shannon area project, could give us some information. I think in fairness, the House should be told and the country should know what the developments have been and what the prospects are.

The Taoiseach welcomed the idea of industrialists coming into the country to establish factories here and I do not think that anybody disagrees with the proposals of the last Government or the Government now to assist in the establishment of these industries. However, the Government should not sit back and depend entirely on private enterprise to provide these factories and consequently more employment for our people. Both the Taoiseach and the Minister for Industry and Commerce have always protested in this House that private enterprise should have priority in industry but neither has protested very loudly that if private enterprise did not do the job the Government would step in and take over.

It is a good thing to see a German, a Britisher, an American or a Dutchman coming in here to establish factories, but progress has not been sufficient to absorb the large number of our people who are becoming unemployed, particularly in the rural areas. I think it is about time the Government seriously considered sponsoring industries itself. They have been pretty successful in the past in the establishment of industries and in the running of the concerns so established. They entered the field of electricity through the establishment of the Electricity Supply Board—not the present Government but it has been done by a Government. Different Governments have entered the field of industry, too, in Bord na Móna, Irish Shipping, Irish Sugar Company and in forestry which I would now term a commercial undertaking. Yesterday we had legislation giving a sum of approximately £200,000 for the expansion of Irish Steel Holdings.

All these ventures have been highly successful and should be an example for others. They have given quite an amount of employment and the Government should seriously consider the establishment of industries in fields where they think there is a necessity for them and where they know that private enterprise is reluctant to venture. The Department of Industry and Commerce through their various sections have the best advice as to the type of industry that is needed. They know what commodities are imported and they know where export possibilities lie. I think they could go a long way towards the establishment of more such industries.

Then, after a while, they could hand them back and declare them to be public companies. It has always seemed to me that private enterprise has not been sufficiently alive to the financial aid and other types of assistance that have been made available for their benefit by the various Governments, who have held the money out to them, so to speak. But they have not availed of it. Where we have emigration and unemployment at such a high rate, it is the duty of the Government to consider seriously and immediately the possibility of establishing factories in communities for whom private enterprise has failed to cater.

I have always believed that we should exhort our people frequently to buy Irish goods. I have said this in the House during debates like this but I do not believe the Government have been serious in a "Buy Irish" campaign. I do not want to infer that they have tried to dampen down the campaign which exists, but their recent efforts have been very puny. The Government should realise the importance of our people buying Irish goods. Unfortunately many people do not appreciate what an advantage it would be if all our people were determined to buy Irish-made goods wherever they were available.

The last campaign conducted by the Government consisted merely of the sending out of very small and very inadequate leaflets to those on the election register exhorting them to buy Irish goods. There are many reasons why our people should buy Irish goods, reasons which can be expressed very easily and very forcibly in Press advertisements. Radio Éireann could be used for the same purpose. I would ask the Taoiseach to consider seriously an all-out campaign to get our people to buy goods manufactured in Ireland. The importance of buying Irish comes home locally, but I am afraid it does not come home to the nation as a whole.

In my home town we appreciate the importance of inducing the farmers to buy agricultural machinery manufactured in Wexford. In Kilkenny, the workers, and the people generally, appreciate the importance of selling Kilkenny footwear. Similarly, in relation to Waterford, Dundalk, Limerick and Cork, and all the other manufacturing towns, the people appreciate the importance of people buying articles made locally. But if one suggests to a farmer in, say, Kilkenny that he should buy a Wexford-made plough he does not regard the suggestion very seriously. I suppose if I were to go down to Wexford, on the other hand, and advise the people there to buy Kilkenny-made shoes, they would listen to me, and that would be that. If it were brought home to them that, in buying Kilkenny or Dundalk footwear they were keeping Irish men and women in employment, that would have an effect. If the people in the farming areas were told that by buying Wexford manufactured agricultural machinery they were keeping men in Wexford in employment, they would appreciate the importance of buying Irish.

I believe the trade union movement could possibly do more in that respect, but I think anything done should be done in co-operation with the Government and, in particular, with the Department of Industry and Commerce. One of the unions affiliated to the Trade Union Congress engaged in a "Buy Irish" campaign some years ago. Because they were not equipped—I do not mean financially but in other ways—to conduct that sort of campaign it was not as effective as it could have been.

We have an inferiority complex about goods made in Ireland. We should make an attempt, first of all, to get rid of that inferiority complex. I appeal to the Taoiseach to consider initiating a really big campaign in an effort to get our people to buy Irish manufactured goods. A satisfactory response would help to solve a good many of our problems. It would help to solve the problem of unemployment and an adverse balance of payments position. It would make some contribution—I think a not inconsiderable one—if the campaign were conducted in a really big way.

There is just one final comment I wish to make. In view of the fact that this debate is a general survey of the economy and the economic prospects of the country, I do not think this is the right time, at the end of the session, to have this debate. I remember one year here, when we were running late into July, possibly into August, by agreement, there was a token vote of £10 for the Department of the Taoiseach and the main debate on the Estimate was held in the following October or November. That was a very successful debate. Speakers are limited now because we must adjourn not later than 2 a.m. Many Deputies want to contribute. I think it is a pity that time will not permit them to contribute. I ask the Minister for Transport and Power to convey to the Taoiseach that, in my opinion, we should have this debate earlier in the summer or, if that is not convenient, then in the autumn, when franker and fuller discussion will be permissible.

Because of the limited time I shall make my contribution as brief as possible. One of the things which alarmed me when the Taoiseach was giving the House his annual review of the position of the country was the apparent complacency with which he regards the agricultural industry. During Deputy Dillon's speech he interjected on a few occasions, and his interjections had the effect of making uneasiness still greater. The Taoiseach does not know that things are as bad as they are. He showed quite clearly that he believes agriculture, and the position of the country generally, was never better; everything in the garden is lovely. That is the alarming feature of the Taoiseach's attitude.

I shall not cover the ground covered by Deputy Dillon, but I want to ask the Taoiseach one question: Does he realise that a huge section of our people—the small farmers under £10 valuation—is becoming a thing of the past? I take the valuation because it is a more genuine yardstick than acreage by which to measure potential livelihood on the land. Despite the fact that this class is rapidly disappearing, the Land Commission are striving to bring those under £10 valuation at the moment up to that level. They are years behind.

Urban Deputies may ask why this class is disappearing. The answer is that the ever-increasing cost of living plus a declining income from the land has produced an ever-widening gap. The farmer has no option but to emigrate or go into the county home. Whole families are tearing themselves out by the roots and vanishing from the countryside. Rural Deputies are in touch with the situation. I ask those who have no real personal contact with the land if they think it possible for a farmer to rear a family on a farm of £10 valuation, consisting usually of 15 statute acres of mixed land—seven, eight or ten acres of fairly good land and the rest poor land.

Let us not minimise the situation. I went to the trouble of finding out how many holdings there are of £10 valuation, and under. Out of a total of 378,676 holdings 195,797 are under £10 valuation. I want to bring home to the Government now that we are going to lose 195,000 families. I do not suggest that there are actually 195,000 houses, because in some cases a farmer owns more than one holding. I would say that in the 190,000 odd holdings under £10 valuation it is a fair assumption there are 160,000 homesteads. These cannot survive and I want to warn the Government that the crisis facing the country at the present time deserves more attention than anything else. We are losing these people. We have lost many of them already because they have emigrated with themselves and their families. I think there is only one way to save them for the country and that is the introduction of fixed minimum prices for the major items of agriculture which they are producing.

At the present time farmers who have sufficient acreage of land of the requisite quality are growing wheat, barley, and beet at guaranteed prices, but in many cases small farmers cannot grow any of these crops. The very size of their holding prevents small farmers from speculating too much in these crops. The average small farmer may grow half an acre or an acre of wheat but, even with a fixed price, that is not sufficient. He may grow an acre of beet, but that is about all, as he has to keep land for the grazing of the few head of cattle which are his principal business. In addition he must grow corn, potatoes and other things for consumption on his own farm. One of the incongruities of the present situation is that the big farmer has a great measure of security provided for him by the Government, but the small farmer cannot avail of that security by growing enough of the crops for which guaranteed prices are fixed.

The pattern on small farms from Donegal to Kerry, even in the midlands and the south, is that they carry a small number of cattle and the sale of two or three of them each year is the main source of income. The small farmers' women folk may also keep a few fowl, turkeys, and perhaps a few pigs, but pigs are an absolute gamble at present. Indeed the greatest gamble of all today is in cattle, which were once a sure source of income for the farmer. Turkeys are now also another gamble and if we are to hold these 160,000 farmers who have holdings of £10 valuation and under, we shall have to fix minimum prices for the produce they produce so that when they start production they will know exactly where they stand.

By midland or southern standards I am not a very large farmer but I know that in every aspect of farming in which I partake, as far as income is concerned, it is a pure gamble. The sowing of crops is a gamble. Last year was an excellent year for the growing of grain and root crops, but this year is shaping pretty badly at present. The small farmer has no guaranteed price for eggs, turkeys, sheep, cattle, and potatoes. Rearing cattle for sale is a complete flop at present, and I blame the Government to a large extent for allowing the Danes and the Dutch to get such a large share of the British market.

May I ask what exactly did take place in London at the time of the collapse of the trade agreement talks last Spring? All that I know about it is that the Taoiseach came home and made a statement at the airport which was published in the papers, and a very gloomy statement it was. After that there was nothing to be heard but, since we are one of Britain's principal customers for industrial goods, I think the Government have a powerful weapon in their hands in bartering our agricultural produce for the goods Britain produces. I am not saying that that is not acknowledged. Everybody who comes to this country or to England regards Irish produced food as the very finest, whether it be beef, eggs, butter or anything else. We do not buy very much from other countries like Germany, Sweden and the United States of America. We put all our eggs in one basket in regard to imports, and we should see to it that Britain takes our eggs from us in return.

Speaking of these 160,000 odd small farmers and of methods to keep them in the country, I repeat that they will have to be given some security. Every other class in the country has security of one form or another. The working man has a secure wage. Civil Servants, Gardaí and teachers have security and pensions when they retire, but the one crowd who are paying their share equally with them in providing such security, the small farmers, have no security themselves. The result is that they are doing the obvious thing, they are moving out, leaving their land behind them and the country is going back into ranches. In my opinion within the next 10 to 15 years the greatest part of the country will have gone back into ranches unless a strenuous effort is made to ensure a proper livelihood for the small farmers.

Coupled with the Government's failure on prices for agricultural produce is a complete absence of employment in rural districts. At present employment is provided only on a little arterial drainage scheme at one spot in Galway and another place in North Mayo, but that is neligible. The Local Authorities (Works) Act has been completely ditched by the present Government, with what end in view I do not know. I never heard one reasonable argument put forward to explain why it was strangled. Afforestation and the Land Project were two other excellent developments which, not alone were providing steadfast employment in rural areas, but were doing good for the country as a whole. In districts where no other work could be provided they were a great boon. They were some of the things which the inter-Party Government advanced but they have been more or less damped down by the present Government and some of them, as I say, have been killed.

If any of us had to survive on a small holding, under present conditions, I do not think we would last six months. During the debate on the Vote for the Department of Agriculture I said that the income derived from a holding of £10 valuation or under, does not provide sufficient means to bring up a family in the standard which was previously enjoyed by small farmers. At present a farm of £10 valuation is just a "hoy", a plaything for a bachelor farmer. Anyone who travels through the country will see that that is so.

When the Taoiseach came home from London last spring after the collapse of the trade agreement talks, he gave a promise to relieve the position of small farmers, and one of the items he mentioned was the de-rating of out-offices on agricultural holdings. Why did he break that promise?

It has gone up the spout.

It is like so many other Fianna Fáil promises.

The Bill will be dealt with in the autumn.

In the evening, by moonlight.

If that is the best the brains trust within the Government can offer to the people on the land, you might as well be trying to keep out the tide with a broom. It will be a small help.

It was advocated only as a small help. It was not suggested as a universal remedy.

The first step towards stabilising the livelihood of the farmers on small holdings is a fixed minimum price. That might lead to a flood of production, but, nevertheless, farmers would know where they stand. To-day they do not know where they stand. This time last year a suckling calf made £25. To day you can buy the same calf for £10. Deputy Killilea can bear me out in this. Saleable store cattle are down £15 a head or even more since last year—that is the few you can sell this year. A good deal of blame has been laid on the bovine T.B. eradication scheme. I do not see that it is interfering with it. What has killed the cattle trade this year is the failure to send the cattle across the Channel to our old customers in England. The bovine T.B. eradication scheme had very little to do with it.

I have heard Deputy Corish refer to the money the Government is spending on agriculture. It is not the first time I heard him do so. I presume he was referring to the relief of rates on agricultural land. The Government is spending little or no money on the development of agriculture in comparison to what is being spent on other projects not nearly as worthwhile. More money must be spent on agriculture. Fianna Fáil seem to regard agriculture as a kind of permanent cow, always there to be milked but which never needs any food or attention. That cow is vanishing hard and fast.

The picture Deputy Dillon painted was perfectly correct. If we undermine the solid foundation of this country—the small farmer under £20 valuation—in our time, and that foundation is being rapidly undermined, I can easily see the whole structure of the State as we know it to-day toppling. Every person who leaves the country is a tax-payer and a potential source of employment gone. If we are to lose our population, I can assure the Taoiseach that the factories in which he and all of us take such pride will be very little good to us.

The Taoiseach told us that the Government have some new plan for sea fisheries. What we want is something more definite than plans. The Taoiseach at this time of the day might have a little public decency in him. For too long he has fooled the people with his plans. I remember when he came into the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis last August two years and said he was going to spend £100,000,000 in five years.

He denied that here to-night.

He made a great song and dance about it for the delegates, the poor "yobs". A new roof had almost to be put on the Mansion House with the clap that they gave him when he made that announcement. He went down to Ballina—I do not want to parrot things I have said here so often but this bears repeating— before the last election and conveyed to the people that the food subsidies would not be removed. He became Minister on the 20th March, and on the 13th April the food subsidies were removed, doubling the price of bread and increasing the price of butter from 2/10d. to 4/4d. per lb.

He denied that here to-night also. He said he never said it.

I suppose he never threw out the bait to the electors that he had 100,000 new jobs around the corner?

He denied that too.

If he denied that, the Taoiseach is certainly a man to be admired.

He made no such promise at the time of the election.

I have it here. I am only mad to get in.

Did the previous Taoiseach not say in Belmullet that the Coalition, as he described them, were saying that if Fianna Fáil got back to power they would take off the food subsidies and that there was no foundation whatever for that? Would the Minister for Transport and Power tell us that?

Let us have contribution by speech rather than by interruption.

I hate falsehoods and I try to keep as closely to the truth as I can. The Minister for Transport and Power said the Taoiseach made no such statement. I am inviting him to tell me is it a fact that the previous Taoiseach——

The Minister will probably make a contribution to the debate.

It will be interesting to hear how he will get around this.

We shall wait and hear.

The Minister for Justice answered that fairly well here quite recently.

According to Deputy Lynch the Taoiseach himself gave the answer inside the last hour.

Do not take Deputy Lynch seriously.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Blowick must be allowed to make his statement.

The people lose all confidence in the country when they hear statements at election time made to capture their votes. It was purely bidding for votes at the last election that these promises were made, and inside of four weeks after getting into power they shamelessly went back on them. The Minister for Transport and Power knows as well as I do that these promises were made. The Taoiseach made almost the same statement in Waterford on the night Deputy de Valera, the previous Taoiseach made his statement in Belmullet that the subsidies would not go. He did not say it in those words, but he said that the prediction made by inter-Party speakers that Fianna Fáil would remove the food subsidies was false and without foundation. "We never do what they say," is what he said.

That kind of conduct—buying votes by false promises they had no intention of fulfilling, just like the 100,000 new jobs—undermines the confidence of the people in Government institutions. We must be the quietest people in the world that there has not been a revolution or that some section of our people are not goaded into taking the law into their hands when they find themselves so badly sold by such rotten promises. We have the name of being a rowdy race, of causing rows and trouble in every country in which we go. Yet we can swallow the most appalling lies from our own and we seem to understand instinctively that they are meant for swallowing. I like being a member of the Dáil but I would much rather stay out of it than buy myself in by such promises and dirty tricks as that.

Even Deputy Donnellan is laughing behind the Deputy's back.

I am sure the Chair will give Deputy Killilea a chance to speak to-night, if he wants to speak. If he can name one promise made by either Deputy Donnellan or myself at the election which we did not fulfil, I should be very glad to hear it. Our record of work was quite sound without making promises. We did not need them.

The people seemed to think otherwise.

The last thing I want to say is on this question of Irish industry. Some Deputies who have spoken have said that there should be a "buy Irish" campaign. We all like to buy Irish but sometimes we are accused of having a grudge against Irish-made articles and a prejudice in favour of foreign articles. I want to put this question: Did anyone ever hear of an Irishman wanting to buy foreign cement, foreign sugar or foreign asbestos goods? I never did. These Irish-made articles are the best in the world. Even in Belgium, where they make a good brand of cement, they are anxious to import as much Irish cement as they can get.

We would not want a campaign to buy Irish if our manufacturers turned out articles as good as those turned out by the foreigners. The Irish purchaser is as keen a judge of good quality as any other purchaser in the world. It fell to my lot two or three years ago to be somewhat critical of certain Irish industrialists. I got some hot letters about that criticism and I sent back letters that were equally hot. I spoke from experience of Irish made articles that fell to pieces in my hands but I am glad to say that the quality of those articles has improved immensely and I am glad to feel that some of my remarks have caused improvement in various Irish articles. I cannot conceive of any Irish man or woman being so thoughtless of the employment given in Irish industry as to buy foreign goods in preference to those made at home.

However, some years ago Irish industry was turning out some not very desirable articles, the quality of which was none too good. Of late years the quality of the majority of Irish manufactures has improved immensely. That is the one way to enable manufacturers to sell their goods. The average person spending money wants to get the best possible value for it. He does not want an article, it may be a tool of some sort, which will break in his hands when using it. There is no better campaign to persuade Irish people to buy Irish goods than that the manufacturers should turn out good quality articles.

The greatest problem facing the Government at the moment is to save the 160,000 small farmers in the country. The Government will be in power for the next 12 or 18 months and if something is not done for those people they will all emigrate to England. The Taoiseach opened his eyes in horror to-night at the suggestion that such a thing was happening but I can give him proof of two parishes I know in which it is happening. I know of one parish in which 80 new houses are closed up and in the other parish over 40 of them are closed. I can prove that is the case. If that trend continues for another 10 or 15 years you may have good industries but you will have a desolated countryside with no one in it to provide a home market. It is up to the present Government to find out how that section of our people is to be saved. If they do not do that they, and indeed all of us, will stand condemned before posterity. If we let this happen we shall, as Deputy Dillon has stated, undermine the foundations of the State.

I shall be as brief as I can in the circumstances, Sir. Listening to the Taoiseach to-night I could not help feeling that whatever consternation there may have been in the minds of the Opposition, as expressed by Deputy Dillon and Deputy Blowick, it can be as nothing compared to the apprehension in the minds of the rural Deputies sitting behind the Taoiseach. In listening to that speech they must have found very little comfort for the rather bitter lesson which they recently had with regard to the position in rural Ireland. I am referring to the very considerable drop in votes in the recent election in Carlow-Kilkenny.

I am sure that many of them must have felt disappointed, after listening to his very able dissertation on the Department of Industry and Commerce as they did some years ago when they listened to another speech, which has been referred to so often here, which he made in Clery's and in which he discussed the plan for 100,000 new jobs. I am not concerned with bringing that up but it was noticeable at that time to most of the rural Deputies that throughout the speech much was said about industry and commerce but that little or no mention at all was made of the part of rural Ireland or of agriculture in the drive towards prosperity which he foresaw or in the giving of employment.

Listening to him to-night they, like myself, must have felt that he obviously had learned nothing and forgotten nothing in his present position as Taoiseach. It is quite clear that in his new post as Taoiseach he is still obviously the Minister for Industry and Commerce. Quite obviously he is now exercising over the position in which he had qualified control for 30 years the power of being the absolute director of policy. Consequently he does not appear to have understood that the transition from the post of Minister for Industry and Commerce, or from any other Ministry for that matter, to that of Taoiseach requires a completely new outlook, a more global outlook on national problems than he appears to be capable of giving in his new character as Taoiseach.

It is very interesting to listen to people who express something in a particular way, so that one is helped in finding out those people's mentality, outlook and personality. From that point of view it was very interesting to hear the Taoiseach diffidently dismiss the question of agriculture by saying that we had already debated the Estimate for Agriculture and that he did not propose to enlarge on the subject again to-night. He then went on to give us a very prolonged and detailed analysis of the position in relation to industry. It seems to me that if the Taoiseach felt he would be out of order in re-debating the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture, he was equally out of order in restating the position in relation to industry in the last six months or in the last year.

To my mind he showed by that—a seemingly clever evasion of a debate on this most important question of agriculture —that he sought to evade the discussion and felt that he had cleverly got out of talking about something in which clearly, as Deputy Dillon said, he had very little interest and about which he probably knows very little. I do not think it is wise for a Taoiseach to allow himself to remain in such a position while in that very responsible post.

To me it seems that the Taoiseach, in his speech, concentrated on the last period—the first six months of this year—and then went into very great detail about the projected expansion of capital investment in various industrial enterprises. I think that that enabled him to put what I suspect will turn out to be a most fallacious and misleading gloss on the true position in the country and, rightly or wrongly, I believe that, consciously or unconsciously, he has tended to mislead the Dáil by this picture of a society throbbing with prosperity and with industries expanding on all sides offering employment opportunities on all sides, creating products of one kind or another for our greatly and rapidly expanding export markets.

He must bear in mind the period since he was first responsible for the creation of industry in Ireland in the 30's. He could take the picture since that time, or since the 20's, if he believes that Cumann na nGaedheal or Fine Gael made any notable contribution to the expansion of industry and he could try to glean from it, from the results of our economic policies over that time, assistance, information and experience which would guide him for the future.

On the other hand, he could take that period and I think it would show quite incontrovertibly that the economic policies pursued show themselves to have been, or to be, a monument to the failure of the bi-partisan belief in private enterprise as a dynamic for the creation of a socially just or prosperous society over the last 30 or 40 years. I think that is undoubtedly the case and I hope to demonstrate it to some extent.

In the realm of non-productive capital investment, there is no doubt the State has spent money lavishly and to great good purpose in various activities mentioned by Deputy Corish —road-building, house-building, provision of hospitals, land drainage, harnessing of rivers to provide energy and utilisation of bogs to provide fuel. In these non-productive capital investments the State has spent vast sums. Equally, in a limited number of the productive capital investment type of undertakings, such as Aer Lingus, Bord na Móna, Irish Steel Holdings and the Sugar Company, the State has also most profitably made considerable capital investment. But where the State has left investment to private individuals or capitalists for the provision of industries or factories which could, would, and should have absorbed the inevitable emigration, and the migration from rural Ireland to the towns and big urban centres and absorbed all the young people coming from the schools and absorbed the unemployed to a total running up to 80,000 or 100,000 people, there, in that sector of our economy which has been left practically exclusively to private enterprise, I do not think anybody can doubt that it can be quite clearly shown that private enterprise has failed the nation quite remarkably.

The total number of jobs required worked out, I think, at something like 12,000 to cater for those who leave the land each year, 12,000 for those leaving school each year and between 40,000 and 80,000, or sometimes 90,000 for the unemployed. Those persons are in addition to the many thousands who have to emigrate, but the total number of jobs required was something in the region of 80,000 and the approximate number of new jobs created each year was, I think, in the region of 8,000 to 10,000. I do not know if it is even as high as that; I think it is very much lower, but certainly not higher. The net result of all that has been a failure of growth in our national income and a failure to provide sufficient employment with well paid jobs. The system has had the end product that we have all talked about, the emigration since the State was founded of over 1,000,000 people.

We have all examined that problem on many occasions, but I am afraid that the depressing thing, as I said at the beginning, is that the Taoiseach seems to have learned nothing from the fact that he has entrusted the expansion of the employment potential and the export potential to private enterprise because he believes in it. He has said he believes in it; he is quite within his rights to believe anything he wants to believe, but to go on believing in something long after it has proved to be a failure is inexplicable to me. I do not know how often he has talked of doctrinaire socialism and its dangers but what about doctrinaire conservatism which, because he happens to believe in it as an economic doctrine, he refuses to change even though he has evidence before him proving that no matter which aspect of our economy one looks at, it has failed?

Our views, of course, depend on the target we hope to achieve, the type of society we want to create, but the failure of private enterprise to expand our national economy to an extent sufficient to develop export markets on a sufficiently large scale has left us in the position that we have had a serious lack of jobs. We have had the position where various Government Departments have had to turn down necessary expansion because of lack of funds—that is the excuse given, at any rate. The Minister for Health is unable to provide us with proper health services. No doubt he would like to do it if he could but he says he cannot afford it.

The Department of Education gives us grossly inadequate educational facilities and provides inadequate scholarships for children to secondary schools. Old people are living on 28/6d. a week which everybody knows is grossly inadequate and, in spite of the rosy picture the Taoiseach paints, the Minister for Social Welfare tells us he cannot afford to give any more. This all seems to me to add up to failure of private enterprise through the years to take advantage of the opportunities offered by various Governments because, as I have said, there is absolute bi-partisanship about this economic policy in this House. These people have failed to accept the opportunities given to them to expand, to invest capital and get into the export market so that we could increase the national income and create a socially just society here.

The Taoiseach comes in tonight with exactly the same formula, the same failed ideas, the same failed statistical clap-trap and economists' clichés which time and time again he must have given to this House. I have listened to him for ten years but no doubt there are Deputies who must have been listening to him for the last 30 years saying much the same as he is saying now, broadly promising them the same things as he is now promising, that prosperity is around the corner, that we are just over the top of the hill and that any day we shall arrive at the end of the rainbow.

The Taoiseach must get tired making these demonstrably silly statements. Obviously, with one thing and another, what may be a prosperous year in the first six months could be disastrous in the second six months. Nobody knows that better than the Taoiseach. When he realises the full significance of his reference to the possibility of a recession in Great Britain, Great Britain being the keystone of our prosperity, he must realise the inherent fallacies in dealing in six month periods in the life of a nation. I think he would have been justified in referring to the broad picture over the last 20 or 30 years or in referring to the position since 1957.

The figures quoted in the booklet Economic Statistics compiled by the Central Statistics Office are significant. They show that the total exports in 1957 were £131.3 million and in 1959 were £130.7 million—a reduction. On page 21 it is shown that the index number of the volume of agricultural output went from 109.9 in 1957 to 103.3 in 1959, base 1953=100.

One marvels at the ingenuity of various Ministers and Taoisigh from time to time explaining why there is a drop in agricultural output or in industrial output. There is always an explanation. The explanation in relation to agricultural output varies from a very dry summer to a very wet summer and the bovine T.B. eradication scheme. I know that one must depend to a considerable extent on the weather in a country such as ours but we have lived here for a very long time and must know or should know this climate fairly well. There must be some precautions that we can take in order to guard against these acts of God over which we have no control at all. There must be some way in which we can organise our agricultural industry so that we are not completely dependent. Science has advanced so much that there must be some way by which we can obviate the possibilities of damage to crops as a result of unsuitable weather.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present.

The third excuse is the bovine tuberculosis eradication question. It has always struck me that this is a very weak and a very lame excuse because we knew long enough about the necessity for the eradication of bovine tuberculosis and there was no reason in the world why we should be caught unawares. We got sufficient warning and should have taken action earlier.

The figures I have quoted show the drop in agricultural output. On page 22 we see that the total number of males engaged in farm work dropped from 398.6 thousand in 1957 to 389.1 thousand in 1959. That is another figure that the Taoiseach did not deal with to any degree.

The Taoiseach referred to a statement made by some council that the flight from the land in Ireland was paralleled in other countries. The use of this statement seemed to me to be an attempt by the Taoiseach to legitimatise his own attitude to agriculture and to agricultural interests in this country, his indifference to their present position, his disbelief that they could be made to become the great source of national prosperity. The fact, of course, is that in other countries in which there has been a flight from the land the conditions are entirely different.

If one takes Denmark, Holland, Sweden, Norway or New Zealand the position is that the land, from which the rural society there is fleeing, is land which has been developed to the maximum, from which the optimum amount of output has been achieved by the use of scientific advances in agricultural know-how as well as generally by the use of the co-operative movement. Their use of both of these has provided a prosperous agricultural economy in those countries. Because of the introduction of machinery, there has been a surplus population in those countries and they have necessarily moved into the small towns or villages in which there are factories based on the output of the agricultural industry or into the larger cities in which they have work in the perfectly natural industrial and textile industries established in these countries. There is no comparison between that drift from the countryside in those countries and the headlong flight from rural Ireland into the cities and across the water. Until we have reached the position in which we have developed agricultural potential to the maximum we cannot be satisfied with the flight from the land.

I am greatly disturbed to find that the Taoiseach has intended to wash his hands of this whole problem. He seems to feel it is insoluble, that there is very little he can do about it, that the best thing to do is to throw the people the odd sop of price supports, to try to keep them quiet by various minor concessions, to concentrate on building up industries on the periphery of the countryside, in the big cities, Dublin, Limerick, Cork and Galway, and leave agriculture to fend for itself.

That is the most serious trend disclosed in the Taoiseach's speech. His admission in that regard is the most disturbing of all. As long as there is this decay in our agricultural economy, with uncertainty of prices and cynicism among the farmers, there can be no substantial industrial arm created because that industrial arm must be based on rural Ireland.

The other figure which was not mentioned was the figure for the number of persons at work in the main branches of non-agricultural economic activity. In 1957 the number was 703,000 and in 1959 it was 692,000, another drop. I do not think that adds up to a genuine picture of prosperity in anything like the terms painted for us by the Taoiseach. As I said, it depends entirely on the type of society which you are trying to create. The export figures show a very unhealthy trend because of the low agricultural content in these export figures.

It is interesting to note that in spite of the talk we have about the industrial boom over the past two years there has in fact been a decline in total exports from £127 million in 1957 to £125 million odd in 1959. The other disturbing fact is that the breakdown of the increases in exports shows that petrol products account for about £500,000—I am giving approximate figures—metal wrought and un-wrought, £500,000; electrical machinery, £437,000; sugar roughly £500,000; footwear £500,000; cement £320,000; ores and concentrates, £500,000; and second-hand cars, £500,000.

That is an unhealthy, undesirable pattern because our exports should stem from produce processed either from the seas around the country or from the land. It should be clear to everybody that an export like second-hands cars is an absurd export item in a country such as ours. It is an extremely undependable item. As regards metal, wrought and un-wrought, I do not know whether that is scrap iron or what it is but if there has been any finished steel product export increase it has been largely due to the industry mentioned by Deputy Corish, Irish Steel Holdings. Ores and concentrates are one of the most depressing exports of all in so far as we are exporting raw material for an industry in respect of which we should have provided a State industry for ourselves in order to get the total value of the mineral wealth in our mines. That is "one of the saddest thoughts of all, that this is increasing and that the real wealth is going to countries other than our own.

The only healthy export increase that I see is sugar which is based on one of the most prosperous of our industries, the sugar industry, probably the most desirable of all in so far as it is based on the produce of the land and because, from the ground right up to export, Irish men and women are employed in growing it, harvesting it and processing it. That seems to me to be the ideal pattern for development of industry in Ireland and it is to be preferred to an absurd development like dependence on items such as second-hand cars.

Other interesting figures show that farmers' incomes rose by 4 per cent., a very small amount. Wages and salaries rose by 3½ per cent. and companies' profits rose by 17 per cent., that is to say, companies' profits were five times greater than the increase in wages and salaries. Once again we got from the Taoiseach, as we do from all these people, the Federation of Manufacturers and industrialists of one kind or another, the usual homily to the workers that they should be very careful about demands for increases in wages; if we increase their wages we will be taxed out of the export market; that they are putting us into an inflationary spiral; that they are making it necessary for us to close down industries; and that, generally, if they look for an increase in wages as a result of increased production they are doing something approaching sabotage of the national interest.

Yet I have never heard from anybody a lecture or a homily addressed to the Federation of Manufacturers, the industrialists, telling them they should put a curb on their profits, on the dividends they distribute from time to time to their shareholders. As a Socialist I do not believe in private enterprise at all. I believe the worker has an absolute right to the product of his skill and his labour. I do not believe a penny of that belongs in unearned income to the moneylenders, which is what the shareholders really are. I do not think the pockets of the workers should be pilfered by any of these people.

It is becoming quite obvious that we are the last preserve of private enterprise in a wonderfully anti-private enterprise world and that the change will come to Ireland as it has to so many other countries. I do not understand why the workers tolerate this extraordinary situation—an increase in wages and salaries of 3½ per cent. and an increase of 17 per cent. in profits. The most interesting fact of all seems to be all the talk about increases in wages in the last twenty years when the worker of to-day is making little more than he did 21 years ago—in purchasing power very much less.

Using figures supplied by the Central Statistics Office, it is possible to show that, in fact, incomes have not increased—actual incomes in terms of purchasing power—since 1930. This is during a period in which, year after year, mounting profits and dividends are being issued in bonus shares of one kind or another in different companies and different industries. It is, of course, completely wrong and I think it is one of the points to which the Taoiseach never seems to advert nor does his opponent on the other side. They do not seem to concern themselves as to for whom they are running our society, for whom are they organising our economy.

The number of people affected by the wages standstill in effect over the last twenty years is something like 60 per cent. of the workers engaged in industry. That has gone on, that restriction in the workers' purchasing power, at a time when there has been virtually no expansion in our social amenities. There have been no free health services. There has been no appreciable expansion in opportunities for higher education for the middle class and lower income families. The old age pensioner and the widows and orphans are all living in a state of semi-starvation because of the gross inadequacy of their allowances.

That conservative policy of successive Governments has driven the best part of one million people out of the country. It has made it impossible for us to give the people a proper health service, to give our young children proper education; it made it impossible to provide playgrounds or other recreational amenities of that kind which are restricted to the children of wealthy parents. Our leading politicians are the architects of one of the most backward societies in Europe. And this is after forty years of internal peace and with no great war damage or the repairs that were required in most other European countries. We have had none of those difficulties, disabilities or drawbacks and yet we have succeeded in creating this ghostly, defective society.

I marvel to listen to the political leaders on both sides who dogmatise to us with such conviction. At last, they say, we are facing prosperity; at last we are turning the corner and prosperity is just upon us. These are the same trite nostrums from the political leaders that have been reiterated for the past twenty, thirty or forty years. But that is not so bad. What is worse is that they are not learning from their repeated mistakes over the years. The Taoiseach conceded, and it is rational, of course, that the keystone of our economy lies in Britain— that due to our nearness to Britain it is the obvious market.

Years ago it was natural we should find ourselves in that position, but I charge the Taoiseach with being largely responsible for the position in which we are inevitably dependent on the prosperity of Britain for a prosperous Ireland. And yet, by the refusal in the 1930's to face this problem, he did not put investment into the creation of industry of one kind or another, based on the agricultural produce of Ireland. Because he did not do that, because of an inferiority complex he appears to have had about ourselves and our country, he opened the door for the British manufacturer to come in here and establish the subsidiary industries here to which Deputy Dillon referred. That is the fact.

That is one of the most damning features of the policy because, as time goes on, we shall realise more and more how completely dependent we are on a prosperous Britain for our prosperity here. Britain is now facing the consequences of the Tory Party's election gimmick, the opening of the doors to hire purchase and cheap money in order to expand the sale and use of consumer goods to keep the wheels of industry turning over, creating the philosophy of "I am all right, Jack" for their own election purposes. They are now beginning to feel the hangover of that dishonest device, a device they used in order to win the election. But I am not concerned with that except in so far as it affects us, for we are tied to the tail. We must go wherever they go. If they go up, we go up a certain distance also; if they go down, we go down with them.

The Taoiseach must know enough about developments in Britain to be very worried about the fact that Britain is the corner-stone of our economy and the foundation stone of our prosperity. In Britain, they are very worried indeed about the failure of private enterprise to expand export markets in competition with countries like Western Germany, Japan, America and so forth. We are in a very delicate situation indeed. I cannot understand why the Taoiseach should have had this inferiority complex about ourselves. It seems to me to disclose a curious dichotomy, an unreasonable dichotomy or schizophrenia in the Taoiseach because, on the one hand, we provided the capital, the personnel, the technicians, the craftsmen, the labourers, right from the bottom up— all the prerequisites — of the marvellous industries which we have. One has only to look at the developments in housing and in hospitals to see the pattern; we provided the architects, the engineers, the planners, the finances, the professional people, the craftsmen, the artisans, the labourers, and the firms with the commodities required to erect these magnificent hospitals and housing estates. All this was done by Irish personnel. It did not matter whether it was unskilled labour or the highest professions; we had them all.

The personnel in Aer Lingus are Irish. So are the personnel in Comhlucht Siúicre, Irish Shipping, Irish Steel Holdings, Bord na Móna, the Electricity Supply Board, and so on. I can never understand why the Taoiseach ever thought it would not be possible for us to find the technicians, the capital and the know-how to do the samething in industry which could have gone into the export markets in the same way as Comhlucht Siúicre has done in recent years. They have had no difficulty. The Taoiseach said something to the effect that if we did not have these tie-ups with the Japanese, the Germans, the British and the Americans we would be denied access to markets. The fact of the matter is the Sugar Company has been able to develop export markets on its own. It has been able to establish the necessary contacts abroad. Aer Lingus has done very well on its own in competition with the best in the world. It seems to me that all the facts disprove the Taoiseach's contention that we had to have this contact with outsiders in order to establish, maintain and develop our industries to the maximum of which they are capable.

Our dependence for prosperity on the prosperity of Britain is a very good argument why we should refuse to extend that dependence to embrace other countries as well as Britain. If we continue in that fashion, we shall find ourselves in a very short time dependent on a prosperous Japan, on a prosperous Western Germany, on a prosperous America, and so forth. When they go into recession, we shall go into recession too. And the Taoiseach will tell us: "It is just too bad". If a bunch of extremists get a hold in Japan and wreck the industries there, what will be the result on us? Our industries will close down, and that is an end to Shannon.

The position is well illustrated by the possibility facing us as a result of a possible recession in Britain. I find it difficult to understand why the Taoiseach, with his considerable intelligence and ability—much more intelligence and ability than anything I can command—should not be clearly aware of the facts. He may have had certain views in the past. Everybody makes mistakes. Whatever views he may have had, it is now clear that, with the best will in the world, these people are incapable of expanding exports at a rate which will give us the expansion we require in order to reach a national income which will permit us to create a socially just society. I suppose that is where we really differ in this House.

I believe the Taoiseach said something to the effect that he did not want to develop our economy at the expense of values that we might have here. I do not know if he really gave that statement of his any really serious thought because, quite clearly, over the last 40 years we have developed our economy without giving a single thought to the creation of a socially just society for all our people. There is a minority who live in conditions of very great privilege, who have access to magnificent schools for their children because they can pay for them, who have access to first-class health services, again because they can pay for them, and who do not have to worry about their old age because they can pay the necessary moneys to look after themselves in their old age. That is a privileged society but is that really what the Taoiseach had in mind when he started out 40 years ago to try and build up a new Ireland, a new society?

At the present time the trend, as I think I have shown here, is that there has been no real expansion in the purchasing power of the income of the wage earner and salary earner. There has been, in my view, a disproportionate increase in profits made from the worker, and there has been practically a virtual standstill in the expansion of social services of one kind or another because various Ministers say that the money is not there to provide it. There have been continued decreasing opportunities in finding employment in the country and there has been continued emigration, as rural Deputies have pointed out, of disastrous proportions in country areas.

The only development which has created a gloss of prosperity has been the great easing of cheap money and hire purchase facilities, which has spread here from Great Britain and which has put the consumer, the worker, the salary earner in the position of buying essentials—at any rate what have become essentials—under the hire purchase system. The result is that the average white collar and working class family are up to their necks in debt to these hire purchase companies. That is a very unhealthy situation and it is largely due to the fact that their purchasing power has not increased to any appreciable extent in the last 20 years.

In his opening statement the Taoiseach seemed to hark back to the many speeches he made as Minister for Industry and Commerce. He did not really take into consideration the fact that he is now a person who has responsibility for over-all policy as it concerns all Government Departments and that, where they are defective, he should have tried to give us an explanation as to why they are defective and what steps he proposes to take to remedy the defects he finds in them.

Of course the great trouble, as far as I can see, is that there will be no appreciable difference in financial and economic policy even if the principal Opposition Party goes back into power. That is one of the most distressing truths of political life in Ireland at present but, while I do not wish it on the Government, it seems to me that they will be facing up to a time of very great difficulty because of the failure of their agricultural policy, because of their failure to provide outlets for agricultural produce at stable, guaranteed prices and because, as has been shown by each of the consultative councils of the bodies set up to advise on the marketing of agricultural produce of one kind or another, they have failed over the past 40 years to provide the necessary marketing facilities for farmers.

In addition to our internal problems it seems to me that the Government will be facing a really greater problem of a possible recession in Great Britain in which case, as Deputy Dillon pointed out, we on the periphery must be amongst the first to suffer because of the fact that British capital controls so many of our industries and there will be very little we can do about it.

The curious inconsistency in the Taoiseach's policy is that he said we must bring in foreign capital. I personally think that by the many excellent industries which he helped to establish he has disproved that. But the inconsistency comes from the fact that, at the same time as he said we must have these foreign industrialists in the country, he boasted that in fact most of the capital invested in the new industries about which he was talking is Irish capital. He cannot have it both ways.

I had hoped that when speaking today I would not have to refer to any of the "opuses" produced by Fianna Fáil when they were out of office but, in the course of Deputy Dillon's address, the Taoiseach flatly denied that he ever mentioned a policy of £100,000,000 and 100,000 jobs. I quote now:

Mr. Seán Lemass last night spoke to Comh-Comhairle Átha Cliath on Proposals for a Full Employment Policy——

it goes on to mention the proposals

...100,000 new jobs after five years. It will be noted that in the first year of the proposed programme, it is contemplated that public investment outlay will be expanded by £13,000,000, raising national expenditure by £20 million and creating 20,000 new jobs.

He goes on, of course, to fill up the whole 100,000 jobs. That is dated October 15th, 1955. Here it is in the paper, the one the Minister, or should I say, the President, owns, that is run for the Party and for the Party alone.

These references to the President should not be made.

But of course they have to be. He is the proprietor of the paper.

We are not discussing the proprietorship of any paper.

It is good to let the public know who owns the paper. They might think it might be somebody who would be prejudiced against the Taoiseach, and that the report would not be correct.

The Taoiseach also went on to say that he never promised anything about the food subsidies. That stuck in my head because, on the Friday night before the general election in 1957, the then Taoiseach, now President, went down to Belmullet accompanied by an army with banners. There was a promise to the farmers: "Anything the Coalition promises to do, we can do better with the inspired leadership... We will call back the emigrants who during the dismal reign of the Coalition"——

From what is the Deputy quoting?

I am quoting from the Dáil debates. It is a quotation from the Irish Press.

The Deputy is quoting from one of his own speeches.

I can produce the Irish Press for the Taoiseach. As a matter of fact, I was thinking of getting it printed at my own expense and sticking it up again on the billboard the Taoiseach had it up on in Waterford.

When the present Taoiseach came down to Waterford on the 1st March, 1957, he said practically the same thing as the former Taoiseach said in Belmullet. There was a bit of collusion there. I remember mentioning at the time that the present Taoiseach could not avail of the hospitality of the Fianna Fáil organisation in Waterford because he had to dash back to Dublin and get down to Burgh Quay to see that this got the prominence he wanted. This is what he said:—

Some Coalition leaders are threatening the country with all sorts of unpleasant things if Fianna Fáil becomes the Government—compulsory tillage, cuts in civil service salaries and a lot more besides. A Fianna Fáil Government does not intend to do any of these things because we do not believe in them. How definite can we make our denial of these stupid allegations? They are all falsehoods.

Earlier at Mallow, he gave utterance to this view:—

Subsidies must be accepted as likely to remain a permanent feature in the Estimate unless a very steep fall in the cost of living takes place and that is not very likely, to put it mildly... I should like to express a personal viewpoint which I hold strongly, that the maximum advantage can be obtained by concentrating all the money that can be voted for subsidies on flour and bread alone.

When the Taoiseach interrupted me, I was about to deal with the question of butter. "A Promise to Farmers to Maintain the Price of Wheat." This document was circulated in my constituency by the Fianna Fáil organisation. I have it here. It was called: "Full Employment."

...A promise to farmers to maintain the price of wheat has been broken. The drop in wheat prices threatened not only the farmers but the entire community which relies for its food on the farmers. Yet, it is a bread and butter election. The Coalition is taking the bread out of your mouths and is buttering you with the only butter they think you are worthy of—golden promises which are broken.

The only trouble about the Taoiseach's promise was that it was not golden it was counterfeit. It would be better for the Taoiseach to stand over that now and say: "I said it. I did trick the people. I am in now and I intend staying in."

I intended reviewing the policies of a few Government Departments and I might as well commence with the Oireachtas. A lot of sacrifices were made in order that this Parliament might be established. A lot of people were starry-eyed looking forward to the day when Irishmen would come in here. I was very pleased to hear some of my colleagues from the other side speak in Warsaw of the Parliamentary rights of our people. They said that anybody here with a grievance could approach his Deputy and that Deputy could get an answer in this House from the appropriate Minister. That is a most important right, and I do not think it is proper that Ministers should try, as they do, to avoid answering questions here. It is most discourteous of them to refuse to answer questions when they have the information at their disposal.

Surely the Taoiseach is not responsible for all of the administration of the Departments of State?

The Taoiseach should be responsible for the conduct of his Ministers in this House.

Then I should like to know on what Vote I can raise this matter.

We are dealing with the general administration of the Department of the Taoiseach. Surely, he cannot be held responsible for answers given by other Departments?

Maybe our friends of Warsaw were too starry-eyed when talking about Parliamentary rights. I am about to be burked. I think I should be allowed to say this: I have asked questions of Ministers on several occasions and the Ministers have refused, even when they had the information, to give it to me. The Minister for Lands and Fisheries refused to give me information the other night. Even though he had the information in his hand, he would not give it to me. I shall have more to say about that tonight, sir. If I cannot say all I want to say, I have given notice that I shall raise the question on the adjournment, and I do not care if that does not come until 2 o'clock or 3 o'clock in the morning.

What about Deputy Burke?

Being an old fox, he knew he was being ruled out of order. This was only a brass band display for the bona fide people in Dublin. He voted for the Bill and now he comes here “ochóning” about it.

I also wish to raise a matter concerning the conduct of the Dáil. Deputy Davern moved to report progress here the other day and then we had Question Time. Following that the Chair called on Deputy Davern to resume. When Deputy Davern rose all the Fianna Fáil Ministers stood up and walked out. That should not happen. It is most discourteous to Deputies.

It does not arise on the Estimate.

This is the only chance a Deputy has of talking about it.

The Deputy is out of order.

The Taoiseach's policy in regard to our agricultural trade has been a failure. You can judge by the results. Prices are down and we are selling less produce. But we did one thing with a great flourish of trumpets. We voted £250,000 and we said that great things would be done. We were going over to Great Britain and across the seas to find alternative markets and boost the markets we had. We have not done anything. Indeed, we appear to have depressed sales.

I think that the salesmanship inherent in Irishmen was lost due to the policy of the present Taoiseach when he was Minister for Industry and Commerce because he created so many monopolies that the salesmen who had jobs in these factories had actually to be sent for by their customers if they did not call on them. The whole race of salesmen or commercial travellers became representatives of monopolies and so they never had any experience of competitive selling. That is one of the technical skills that we are short of in this country; people do not know how to sell things.

We did have a man who knew how to sell things and in connection with that I shall come now to the Department of Lands and Fisheries and deal with the policy of that Department. The Government is at present pursuing a policy of erecting fish processing plants and ice plants at ports where fish is not landed or where very little fish is landed.

I do not wish constantly to interrupt the Deputy but this is a matter for the Department of Fisheries.

I should not like to bring it up at 2 o'clock in the morning.

If it is in order, the Chair will not object.

It sounds like a threat.

This is a matter of Government policy. I am sure that when the Taoiseach presides over a Cabinet meeting he could say that he is going to end this policy of building ice plants at ports where no fish are landed.

This is a matter of administration of a particular Government Department and it is not relevant to the debate on the Taoiseach's Estimate.

Would I be allowed to mention the three famous trawlers on which £125,000 of the ratepayers' money was lost?

That also is a matter for the relevant Estimate and this is not the relevant Estimate.

I think the Deputy spoke on almost all the Estimates.

I am very grateful to the Deputy. I am trying to represent my constituents.

You do not seem to be doing very well.

I am doing all right. The Minister who lost that £125,000 of the taxpayers' money was promoted to Cabinet rank. Would I be allowed to say that I hope the Taoiseach will urge the Minister for Local Government to hurry up with the Transport Bill?

It would be out of order to discuss that on this Estimate.

I have to say that the Government's agricultural policy is a failure. The income of the farmer is down substantially. The Government have "muffed" the whole business. The Taoiseach and the present Minister for Industry and Commerce heavily escorted the Minister for Agriculture over to London when the Danes had already wiped our eye. We never heard what happened there. They probably got a good luncheon and were sent home. In any case they were home very quickly.

I have notes of what I wanted to say about Health but I had better throw a veil over that. In the matter of transport, it is a very serious thing that we are doing nothing except closing down railways. In the matter of Industry and Commerce, many industries have been set up in this country and they are practically monopolies. They have set themselves up so that they can do anything they like. They can supply certain people with the commodity they are manufacturing and they can deny that commodity to other people. I think this is a very serious matter. I have a case before me of a reputable manufacturer in this country who makes a very good product. That manufacturer is protected and if somebody decides that he is going to open a business and sell that manufacturer's products, the manufacturer is in a position to say that he cannot do so, that he will not supply him.

That matter can scarcely be debated on the Estimate for the Taoiseach's Department.

I think it is a matter of Government policy that they allow people to do that. When these people will not sell their products to Irishmen the Minister should give an import licence to the Irishman who is trying to do that business. He wants to buy the Irish article and they will not sell it to him.

I do not know where I am in this matter of order and policy. I did not want to repeat what Deputy Dillon has already said. It would be very easy for me to go over the figures that he gave but instead I want to draw the Taoiseach's attention to certain aspects of the policy of different Departments. It has been the policy of the Government to spend millions on arterial drainage; the figure is £13,000,000. I would say that that expenditure is necessary but I should like to see some of the money spent in the south-east of Ireland.

Regarding the policy of the Government and the state of the country I would say, having listened to the Taoiseach's speech about sunshine and roses in this country, that he is out of touch with the people down the country. He is out of touch with the shopkeeper in the country town, with the small farmers and with the very small industries in the country towns. The man who is in business in a small way in the country towns is now in an awful state. All his overheads have gone up and his sales are dropping every day owing to emigration. Most of his customers have gone away. I think I am in order in drawing the Taoiseach's attention to that.

There is another matter which I tried to raise and, on every occasion on which I brought it up, I was told that it was relevant to another Vote or that I should raise it at some other time. That is the matter of another £250,000 voted in this House. There has been a veil of secrecy over this. We do not know how it will be administered or what will be done with it. We only know that they are going to build the Abbey Theatre. We do not know who will administer it.

That has been the subject of legislation and criticism of legislation is not in order.

I tried to speak at some length when the measure was going through but I was told that £250,000 was being taken from the Funds of Suitors for this purpose. I was told that it was a matter for the Department of Finance who would be administering it. Now, I do not know where I stand but, having said so much, I suppose I must be satisfied.

I am disappointed, Sir, that you are not a little more lenient with me having regard to the manner in which I was treated yesterday by a Minister who forced me, aided by the Minister for Health, into raising a question on the Adjournment. That comes up on the adjournment to-night or, I should say, in the morning. I shall say no more about it but I want to say to the Taoiseach that this is no time for the complacency he has shown this evening. He was not in his old form last year; this year he was full of his old "brass". He put a brazen face on the whole business. I quote the words he used: "The keystone of our economy is the British market."

I did not say that it was the keystone of our economy. I said it was the keystone of our foreign trade structure.

I bow to the Taoiseach. I want to say this now that the Taoiseach is here. He has come a long way. Those were fighting words at one time and if any man said them from a platform in any part of the country he would get his poll broken by Fianna Fáil supporters. All I can say is that this must be a great country to have survived all these years of Fianna Fáil administration; a great country to have survived the last three years of what must have been a great disappointment to the people. But the rumbling came in Kilkenny and I think the Taoiseach should take notice of it.

I do not seek political advantage when I say that this Government should pay more attention to the agricultural community, to the people living in the small towns and villages and to the fact that emigration is continuing. Instead of looking for industrialists at the ends of the earth they should look nearer home. If the Government want to bring in more foreign industrialists they should endeavour to bring in American or British industrialists and not industrialists whose race our people hardly know. So far as colours are concerned we do not know where we are with them now but I do not think we shall build up anything for ourselves by allowing Ireland be a place where these entrepreneurs will make their products to “duck” them into the British market under the imperial preference we enjoy.

I do not think that bringing the Japanese into Shannon to make transistor sets will be of assistance to the very good radio factories here in Dublin making Pye and H.M.V. sets. I never thought that I should say a good word about H.M.V. in Dublin. However, we shall all be loyal to industries which pay good wages and give good conditions. I know some Waterford people who have come to Dublin with H.M.V.; they are very good employers and make very good articles. I doubt if it is a good policy to bring in the type of people that come from countries where it is known that the knockdown article as it is called, is the product of sweated labour.

When the Government got into power the Taoiseach was very active, going to Paris, to O.E.E.C. meetings and various places investigating markets and seeing what countries he would tie up with. But it was all on the "never-never." We were told in the papers: "Farm Income Level Cause of Concern... Farm Incomes Must Rise... Despondency Is Now Gone." I think it was a shame to fool people with that kind of thing. There is something here about Deputy Corry being ordered to leave the House. Here is another: "Our Standing Never Higher... Trade Talks Initiated." What happened about the trade talks? I should like the Taoiseach to answer. "European Trade Pacts... considered joining." We were just considering it but we are going on and on.

The Taoiseach is now giving us the old line about increased production being the answer to every problem. Tell that to the farmers and I am afraid they will not swallow it; tell it to the factories. I have a factory in Waterford in mind which gave great output and now their warehouses are full and their workers on one-third time. That is not good. That brings me to the important thing—what we really lack is salesmanship. We are not selling our agricultural produce to the best advantage. We had a claim the other day that our bacon made more in the British market than bacon from any other country. I should like to know how many sides were involved. The usual way I have seen bulk selling done for Ireland is to cut the price even though what they have to sell, whether butter or bacon, is as good as, or even better than the others because only the best in the top grades is shipped.

Deputy Dr. Browne spoke about setting-up State concerns. I am afraid of State concerns when it comes to getting the goods sold. Private enterprise, encouraged by the Government, is the best way to do it. One of the most important tasks facing the Taoiseach and the Government is to ensure that our agricultural produce is sold to the best advantage, not only in the British market but in every other market to which it is possible to gain access.

There was reference to countries with which we have an adverse balance of trade. Our attitude towards these countries must be tougher. If they do not remedy that imbalance, the Government should impose tariffs against their goods coming into this country and give preference to countries which buy our commodities. I have nothing further to say to the Taoiseach except that his brief this year is one of despondency.

I propose to occupy the time of the House with only two or, at most, three points of general Government policy or what I conceive ought to be general Government policy. I appreciate the fact that the Taoiseach has carried on the practice of giving an economic review in opening the debate on his Estimate. The fact that I do not deal in any detail with the various economic topics to which he devoted attention does not in any way detract from my appreciation of his carrying on that practice. As I said, I have only two or three topics on which I propose to occupy the time of the House.

The fact that the Taoiseach has given such a comprehensive review of the economic conditions of the country, even though people on this side of the House may not agree in every respect with what he said, is perhaps very largely due to the fact that he has continued what was very much in embryo in my time—an Economic Section advising him.

The first point I want to make is that I approve of the setting up of that Economic Section but entirely disapprove of its having been transferred from his Department to the Department of Finance. I should think that it would be very much in the interests of the present Taoiseach and in the interests of any future Taoiseach that such an Economic Section should be in his Department rather than in the Department of Finance. Very good work for the country and for the assistance of whoever is Taoiseach can be done and ought to be done by such a section advising the Taoiseach.

We are fortunate at the present time in having an outstanding economist with wide views, liberal views, on economic affairs and even financial matters. That may not always last. We know, and I think nobody knows better than the Taoiseach, the sort of narrow view that the Department of Finance has on projects of expansion and of expenditure and it would be for the public good and also for the benefit of the Government as a whole that such an Economic Section should advise him so that he can be in a position, with expert economic and financial advice of his own, to deal objectively with the views of the Department of Finance which must, in view of the functions that they have to fulfil under the Constitution and in the general administration of affairs in this country, be rather narrow in outlook and largely actuated by their negative attitude towards expenditure in general. However, that is a matter that, I suppose, cannot be changed now but I would suggest to the Taoiseach that he should consider whether the suggestion I throw out would not be for the general public good, not merely in present circumstances but in any conditions that are likely to arise in future.

I do approve of the policy—I think it has the approval of the Taoiseach— which was referred to by the Minister for Finance in his Budget Speech, of getting what are known as quality men in the Civil Service. It is very important from the point of view of good administration, from the point of view of getting new ideas to meet changing circumstances in a very afflicted world, that we should have in our public service men, not merely of integrity and devotion—which we have in fact in abundance—but men of high quality, of intellect, of training and of specialised knowledge. The fact that the Government have set about reorganisation of the Civil Service I hope will be all to the good and while it may result in less Government expenditure, I hope it will also result in the getting of the best possible brains in this country in the service of the policy that should be carried out by the present or any future Government.

The first topic I want to emphasise arises out of some remarks the Taoiseach made in the course of his economic survey. He drew attention to the fact, as he put forward, that there had been great expansion in the country, in our export trade, great expansion, also, in Irish industry, and that it was a matter of some gratification that many of the new projects which it is hoped will be established in the country are being financed by Irish finance and worked by Irish brains. That is a matter, of course, of gratification to all of us if it comes to fruition.

The Taoiseach also referred to the increase in the capital coming in from outside. We all know the dangers that may surround the investment of outside capital. Equally, it was part of our policy over here to attract that capital. I may, perhaps, be allowed a passing feeling of gratification that it was in October, 1956, when I spoke at the Engineers' Hall that I announced the giving of the incentives which have resulted in such a wide expansion of our exports. But the real point I want to make is that, whether it is Irish capital that is being invested in Irish industry in this country or in any Irish enterprise by which it is hoped to expand our economy and to give employment, there should be no feeling either in this country or abroad amongst people who have capital to invest that any of the incentives, inducements or encouragements that will be given through Government action or legislation of the Oireachtas in any way depend upon political patronage or political pull.

I gravely fear that there is in existence amongst people, entrepreneurs and people with capital, the belief that it is a good thing to know somebody who has pull with the Government. I suggest to the Taoiseach that in the public interest he should make it part of Government policy, made known to all and sundry in this country and outside it, that the inducements held out here at the taxpayers' expense, that the encouragement given through legislation and the welcome that is given by this Government or any Government to any person who risks his capital, whether he be a foreigner or an Irishman, depend upon the merits of the proposal and not upon any political pull he may have.

I want to make it clear that the remarks I am making here are not directed at any particular individual or individuals, at any outside people or at any member of the Government or any adherent of the Government. It is a matter of such wide public concern and of such importance that it should be made as clear as noon-day that there is no foundation for the notion that a person will get benefits or advantages over a rival through political pull.

That leads me to the second point which is really the general principle which governs the point I have stated. This Government ought to make it clear that it is their policy to exclude, as far as possible, all public patronage. We have got to the stage where the public interest demands that there should be an end to any Government patronage or any patronage through a particular Department or any appointment by the Government through a Department. If I may be permitted to give one example merely to illustrate what I am saying, I think the situation that has developed in the appointment of rate collectors has become a public scandal. This Government or any other Government of the Irish people would gain great prestige and increased respect if they combined with all Parties in this House and agreed that there should be an end to all political patronage so far as it can possibly be done.

This is an important moment for me to raise this issue. I know that political Parties have their followers who expect that if their Party becomes the Government something of what they call, or miscall I should say, the fruits of office, will be given to them. Very frequently votes depend on that and I know that a Party that goes out and says that political patronage will be no part of their policy may possibly lose votes. My mind goes back to the early stages of this State when the Government under Mr. Cosgrave not merely announced their policy in that respect but got the necessary legislation passed through the Oireachtas— the Local Appointments Commissioners Acts, the Civil Service Commissioners Acts and other Acts—taking away their power of appointment or almost all their power of appointment to the local authority service and practically all appointments to the Civil Service. It will be admitted now, after the experience of nearly thirty years, that those measures brought great unpopularity to Cosgrave's Government but in addition to that it must be admitted that they have brought great prestige to this country and great respect for the administration both of the Civil Service and the local authority service.

It would be something that would redound to the credit of the Government, although they might lose votes at the general election—certainly it would redound to the credit of this country—if all Parties in this State combined to put an end to political patronage of any kind and made it clear to everybody, in the State and outside the State, that the Civil Service has been carried on, as it has, with complete integrity, as have the Garda Síochána and the Army, and the local authority service to a considerable extent but not to the full extent, that there will be no more political patronage, that everybody will have equal opportunity no matter what Party he belongs to and no matter on what political principles he may rest his fate.

This matter has been in my mind for a long time. I think this is the proper time to do it before the general election is held. It might mean a loss of votes but that is a passing thing for any Party. If every Party in this country, now when there is not an immediate prospect of a general election, declared that that was a fundamental principle upon which all Parties in this State were agreed, great benefit would come and great respect would inure to the institutions of this State, and our own people, who perhaps sometimes, particularly the younger people who take a cynical view of our institutions, would at last rally round and see that they have a real Parliament, a real Government and real institutions in this State to which they could give their full allegiance and their profound respect.

I hope I do not infringe the rules of order in referring to the last point I wish to mention. It is a matter of Government policy on which I wish to make one point very briefly. It was announced by the Taoiseach in the past few months that it was the intention of the Government to set up a Commission on Higher Education. I impress upon the Taoiseach that when this Commission is being set up, it should be laid down as Government policy and as an instruction to the Commission which will advise the Government on higher education, that in their advice on University matters they must preserve the autonomy and the independence of University institutions.

I listened with some concern to talk in the course of various debates recently with reference to University matters, it being stated that he who pays the piper must call the tune. Whatever may have gone on in connection with University matters recently, whatever anybody's views may be in reference to that, I urge upon the Minister in the public interest the necessity of its being Government policy and the subject of a Government direction to maintain the autonomy and the independence of the Universities. There will, of course, have to be certain necessary safeguards but that fundamental principle should be laid down for any commission set up to consider higher education.

The House will agree that indications which the Taoiseach made in his speech confirm the fact that 1959 was, generally speaking, a year of advance for the country. From a superficial look at these indexes all would appear to be well with the future of our small State. However, I do not think it is either wise or realistic to take one year, take out the satisfactory features and then sit back and regard all in the garden as being rosy.

There have been, as I think the Taoiseach would be the first to admit, certain very cogent reasons why a substantial advance, particularly in the industrial sector, has been made during 1959 and I think it is not unfair to go back two or three years to find the reason for that advance and also to take a look into the future to see if we can anticipate these conditions continuing in the years ahead.

It is very difficult when getting figures for the total number of persons employed to assess the value of the Government's economic policies over the past three years. I have always found it one of the most difficult figures to get. One can get figures at various times for industrial employment, at other times for agricultural employment but it is very difficult, indeed, to get a figure that relates to the total number of people in employment. It is not altogether sufficient to get regular weekly figures of the total number of persons on the live register. These figures show a very encouraging trend over the past two or three years.

Taken in isolation, it might be thought we are making very considerable progress in dealing with the problems of unemployment and emigration, but until the 1961 census is taken I think it would be quite unrealistic to believe our troubles in regard to these problems are solved. First of all, any Government must have regard to the cost, in terms of capital outlay, of talking about solving the unemployment problem in this country. Over the past three years, we have spent a sum in excess of £100 million, but for that outlay there has been disemployment of some 50,000. The advance made in the industrial sector has not been sufficient to offset the continuing disemployment in the agricultural sector or to take care of the natural annual increase in the population.

The result has been that in spite of the falling number on the live register, heavy emigration has continued and indeed all the indications are that the trend has increased in the past year. It is quite true, as the Taoiseach has pointed out, that the downward trend in agricultural employment is world wide. It has been estimated that in the European countries in general the downward trend has exceeded two per cent. The difference between most European countries and our own is that increasing industrial sectors have taken care of the decrease in agricultural employment.

Here we have to rely on the British economy to look after our people leaving the agricultural areas who cannot find employment in the industrial sector here. There has been a good deal of talk about the Government's failure to deal with agriculture and the people living on the land. Coming from a near-agricultural constituency, I can confirm that the falling numbers in the rural areas are having a disastrous effect on the country towns and villages. In my own native city, which draws its prosperity largely from the rural hinterland, we suffer from the fact that, due to the decision of the Government not to extend to Limerick the benefits applicable to the underdeveloped areas and to our nearness to the Shannon Development area, we find ourselves between the devil and the deep blue sea.

The Taoiseach has said that Limerick people should show greater initiative. But I would point out that Limerick is at a serious disadvantage which has been accentuated by the fact that, going 10 or 12 miles from the city, an industrialist can enjoy substantial benefits in the way of grants and so forth. I would repeat a request I have made several times, not necessarily to extend the Undeveloped Areas Acts to include Limerick, but to grant similar benefits to specific important industrial projects which might be started in Limerick. That would have very beneficial effects in a city which has been most unfortunate in industrial development in recent years.

I think it would only be fair that some tribute should be paid to the previous Government for the unpleasant levies they had to impose in 1956, at a time of very serious crisis in our economy. Charges of mismanagement have been hurled at them from the Government side of the House, but any fair-minded person will admit that from 1955 to 1957 was an extremely difficult period, not for reasons within the compass of the Government of that day. The present Government were left to benefit by the imposition of the levies in 1956 and, subsequently, by their own action through the removal of the food subsidies which is still being reflected in Budgets.

The Government have also been favoured by improving terms of trade over the past few years and by the fact that the British economy has served us in two very useful ways—one, taking our exports and, two, taking our surplus population. Whether that will continue in coming years is a matter of grave doubt and I shall be referring to that later.

The last Government and the present Government are to be complimented for the incentives they have given to industrialists to increase our exports to various markets abroad. In spite of the strictures levelled at private enterprise, I think there has been a welcoming sign that industrialists in this country have become very much alive to the growing necessity for exporting our products. That trend must continue; industrialists must be encouraged to continue that if the country is to expand its economy.

The last Anglo-Irish trade agreement did confirm the very favourable position which we enjoy on the British market, with one exception, to which I alluded in my remarks at the time the agreement was signed—the duty on Irish-made cloth that has a manmade fibre content. I understand from the Minister for Industry and Commerce that recent discussions have taken place on that particular imposition and I do hope, for the sale sake of the Irish clothing industry, particularly in relation to Limerick, that something will be done very soon to eliminate that discrimination.

In taking credit for the terms of the Anglo-Irish trade agreement, it is well to have regard to the conditions in which that agreement will operate in the years ahead. Almost concurrently with the signing of the agreement there had been very significant developments in European trade quarters in which Britain itself took a very important part. One has been the formation of the European Free Trade Association or, as it is better known, the Outer Seven.

One of the results of that has been that Denmark, against whose bacon products a tariff of ten per cent. had been imposed in past years, has succeeded in getting that lifted. From now on the Irish farmer, who has been on lean times during the recent years, will have to compete against the very efficient Danish farmers on the British market. That alone will make things extremely difficult for the Irish farmer. It will have the effect also that Irish industrialists who have been exporting their goods to England in increasing volume, will have to compete now on the British market with the efficient and, in most cases, larger plants of the other members in the group. When we come then to pat ourselves on the back and consider what a very advantageous position we have on the British market, I think it is as well to be realistic and to appreciate that, in the years ahead, that market will not be ours for the asking and we shall have a much tougher fight, not only to increase our exports to the British market but to maintain our present position there.

It seems to me that whether we decide to join the "Outer Seven" or whether we decide to continue our present policy of remaining aloof from any entanglements with either the "Outer Seven" or the Common Market, we will of necessity have to make some form of trade association with other European countries. If we do succeed in making these trade arrangements, and succeed in expanding our exports to the countries concerned, it is almost certain these countries will insist on a quid pro quo in the way of reduced tariffs to enable them to enjoy a share of our market. It is not being too pessimistic, therefore, to anticipate that in a very short time we shall be faced with competition, not only abroad but also in our own at present highly protected home market.

I wonder what plans the Government have prepared to deal with this, in my opinion, imminent situation. Have the Government made any assessment of the industries which are likely to expand and prosper in these wider trading groups? Have they made any assessment of the industries that will inevitably go to the wall under conditions of free trade? The situation calls for some very serious thinking on the part of the Government. In fairness to the industries, or groups of industries, I think too that some plan should be forthcoming to let them know where they stand. The Taoiseach and other members of the Government have appealed on many occasions for greater efficiency on the part of Irish industrialists and on the part of the Irish people generally. That is an appeal with which we all agree. It is also one which we must, of necessity, support if we intend to expand our economy.

I should like now to make an appeal to the Taoiseach to start at the top —however he will do it—and stop the mounting costs of public services; that is proving a greater detriment to the expansion of our economy than anything else. Over the past ten years there has been something like a 70 per cent. increase in the cost of government. I agree with the Central Bank in its report the other day that the figure is a formidable one in our small economy with its limited resources. The best possible incentive that could be given to an expansion of our economy, particularly in the private sector, would be a substantial reduction in taxation. That would have far more beneficial effects than taxing the private entrepreneur and using that taxation to subsidise industries which, if they had to survive on their own resources, would not be able to stand on their own two feet. In conditions of free enterprise the private entrepreneur can make better use of his own capital than can a Government agency.

Part of the result of rising Government expenditure has been the necessity to service a proportionately rising National Debt. It is not without interest to note that the servicing of our National Debt now costs some 4/- in the £ as compared with 2/3d. in Great Britain. That is a very significant feature. The Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement said that there was a decline in the proportion of the national income spent on public services. He also said that the proportion spent on public services was lower than that spent in many European countries. He went on to say that there was no reason for complacency. Now, I do not think that the comparison is an altogether valid one because the countries to which he compared our economy are far richer. Most of them are suffering from the aftermath of war and are compelled to finance a very heavy defence programme. Our country has been burdened with neither of these disabilities.

It is also true that the failure to expand our economy has in the past been due largely to the very poor return on both State investment and investment in the private sector. The return we get compares very unfavourably with the return in other European countries. I think that the calculation is one-third. I believe that unsatisfactory return is now being remedied; I believe some step to remedy the position has been taken—wisely taken— by the Government judging by the publication of its recent five-year programme. It is obvious the Government realise that a trend towards more productive investment is absolutely necessary if we are not to dissipate our very scarce capital resources.

I should like to suggest to the Taoiseach that the present five-year programme ought to be carefully screened again. I am not satisfied with all the items in that programme. I am not satisfied that those which are alleged to represent productive expenditure do, in fact, represent such expenditure in the correct sense of the term. Even if the Government find, after the first year or two of operation, that it is not getting a sufficient return, either by way of capital or the vitally necessary increased employment, it should have the courage to revise the programme and deflect investment into more truly productive lines.

If it is our intention to expand our economy to the extent to which it will almost certainly be necessary, the Government should ensure that a far greater proportion of our national income is invested for productive purposes. We may have to think in terms of 20 per cent. of our national income. Instead of £40,000,000 or £50,000,000 per annum, we shall have to talk about £120,000,000. That will call for very radical changes in many of our ways of living. It will mean a considerable increase in savings both public and private. It will mean inevitably the imposition of many restrictions which we do not have to suffer today.

If we are to be serious in expanding our economy and providing the necessary investment to do that, we may have to put up with restrictions and impositions that we do not worry about at the moment. If it is necessary to expand capital investment, both in the State and the private sector of the economy, the Government should take their courage in their hands and impose whatever restrictions are necessary to achieve that aim. A programme of the size I have mentioned will certainly call for very strict supervision of Government expenditure, and will certainly entail a very great departure from many of the economic shibboleths preached principally by the Taoiseach's own Party over the last 20 or 25 years, but I think the Taoiseach has shown that he himself is not afraid to depart from some of the treasured ideas held by his Party in the past. If he takes his courage in his hands I am sure he will get support, not only inside his own Party but outside it.

Another speaker has dealt with the merits and demerits of what he called private enterprise. I think it is generally held that there is place for both State and private enterprise here, and that of necessity the State had to step in where private enterprise was unable to do the job. I am not one of those who subscribe to the opinion that private enterprise has failed. There are many reasons, historical and otherwise, why private enterprise has not expanded here to the extent that it has in other countries, but I hold that private enterprise must undertake certain types of enterprise in which the State cannot usefully take part, and I think we must give it a fair reward. In recent years I think that has been realised in the export incentives and tax inducements which have been provided. Certainly they were a step in the right direction.

Finally, I should like to urge on the Taoiseach the necessity of spending more on education, particularly technical and technological education. In the final analysis, if we did not invest in our most important raw material, that is our young people, to give them an opportunity to earn a future for themselves and the country, all the money spent on grandiose projects of one kind or another would be completely wasted.

I have met only one millionaire in my lifetime and I asked him what was the secret of his success. In his reply to me he said: "It is no secret at all. Success can be achieved in any walk of life by adherence to two very simple precepts—work hard and tell the truth."

No millionaire ever did that.

I firmly believe this one did.

A fairy story.

He might have worked hard.

He would not win an election.

Or he could be born a millionaire.

Following from that, I am convinced that the only firm basis for the survival of human relations or political relations, either internally or internationally, must be the truth. When the use of the truth falls into abeyance, either by neglect or by the deliberate act of those whose responsibility it should be to defend it in all its aspects, then public institutions, public men and all the framework of a community or a State will fall asunder if given sufficient time. There has to be somebody, or some body of people, who must combat that process—the process of, on the one hand, allowing the truth to fall into abeyance or, on the other hand, permitting its deliberate neglect.

It is with that in mind I confess that some few months ago, when Deputy Dillon as Leader of the Opposition, casually inquired of the Taoiseach about the now notorious 100,000 jobs and the Taoiseach replied that to attribute that statement to him was unjust and unfair, I gasped in horror at such a deliberate and wanton betrayal of the truth and such a shameless denial of what he had undoubtedly said. During the Carlow-Kilkenny by-election campaign when, because of speeches from those opposing his Party or questions put to him at one meeting, the Taoiseach even as late as that, impliedly admitted he said on that occasion in Clery's Ballroom that 100,000 jobs could be achieved within five years by the injection of £100,000,000 into the economy, and that all he asked was the co-operation of the people to bring that about. He impliedly admitted that when, in relation to the unemployment figures prevailing at the time of the by-election, he said that what was needed now were 50,000 new jobs to meet the situation as he then saw it.

I do not know of any new jobs that have been created, except jobs within the Government itself. One of them has resulted in higher fares and fewer trains. The other has resulted in a state of business chaos among the community of licensed traders and those who work for them, in this city and in the seaside resorts of our country. A vital blow has been struck at tourism through the miscalculated position obtaining under the recent Licensing Act, a situation which to-day has seen a prominent member of the Fianna Fáil Party, Deputy Burke from County Dublin, owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the replies he received on this matter, wanting to raise on the Adjournment something for which a bare few months ago, due to the ill-conceived direction of the Whips of his Party, he was forced to walk into the Division Lobbies to vote, something which he knew even then would be to the detriment of the people he represented. I look forward to his raising it on the Adjournment.

Deputy John A. Costello has raised a subject about which I must say I myself, and certainly my Party, feel very strongly. He referred to the loss sustained by the then Government of the country under Mr. Cosgrave by the institution of the Local Appointments Commission, and the successful attempt in those days to encourage the motto of fair play for all, and appointments by merit and merit alone. It is true to say that during the reigns of successive Governments the Local Appointments Commission has been preserved. I believe that even in the worst days, the early days, of Fianna Fáil the spirit of the Local Appointments Commission was preserved but damage was done to it by Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party up and down the country making people believe that the Appointments Commission could be got at or interfered with.

It is that kind of propaganda that damages institutions deserving of our respect, institutions that should command a position of very great prestige in our community. That propaganda applies not alone to the Local Appointments Commission and to its working; it applies to every single post in this State from the very top to the bottom. I have no hesitation in charging the Fianna Fáil Party through their propaganda with establishing in the minds of the people the false notion that it is only through them, either collectively or individually, that people can obtain that to which they are really entitled by the statute law of this country and by regulations made thereunder.

To my own knowledge some Deputies have reduced this thing to a fine art. I heard a story the other day that a Deputy is able to convince people in his constituency that he can be most influential in the matter of getting a driving licence for somebody, and he operates that successfully. That is bringing Parliament and its members into very grave disrepute.

Surely that cannot be brought home to the Taoiseach?

I never got a driving licence for anybody.

I am not suggesting that the Taoiseach ever did. But I think the Taoiseach knows as well as I do that the notion has been very carefully and successfully established in the minds of the people, principally by the members of his own Party. There are cases where the fruits of Government will naturally go to Government supporters in the absence of any other scheme to avoid that. I refer to the appointment of members of the Judiciary, the appointment of the Attorney-General and such other appointments as do not come within the framework of the Appointments Commission or some similar institution. But at all other levels the very idea of patronage could be removed from the minds of the people by an advisory service side by side with the services available to the people but about which they are not too clear.

I am referring in particular now to the services for which the Tánaiste is responsible—the Department of Health and the Department of Social Welfare. I must say that the Tánaiste is to be complimented on the excellent book on the health services he has sent out to Deputies. It is a valuable composition and it is one that, if expense would allow, he might consider sending to every county manager, county councillor and urban councillor in this country. It would let the people know they have these services, and Fianna Fáil would no longer be able to operate on the basis that they, and only they, from Deputies down to town commissioners, can get something for a person to which that person is entitled in law, thereby building up a reputation on completely false premises.

In the matter of Government policy as far as education is concerned, I think there is something in what Deputy J.A. Costello has urged in relation to matters which have been referred to the Commission, that the Commission would be best directed to consider methods rather than to foist a policy on a Government through its report. The Government itself should have the fundamentals of its policy and the Commission would be the channel through which the best methods might emerge.

The Taoiseach cannot feel too happy —and I am sure he does not—about the situation with regard to unemployment and emigration. I know he will urge that unemployment figures have fallen considerably. I know they have, but that has been due to two reasons. One is seasonal and the other is emigration. I think there are 51,000 fewer people in insurable employment than there were two or three years ago. Put that with the figure for those who have emigrated and we have a figure of 106,000 odd for the years 1957-58. They have been going steadily ever since. But as I said on other Estimates, principally the Estimate for Agriculture, I can well understand the necessity, particularly on the smaller holdings where the families are relatively large, for their having to go. Their remittances help to bridge the gap between the income of the small holding from its various sources and what has to be paid for the maintenance of the family remaining on it. But that is not what is happening at present.

The pattern of emigration now in rural Ireland is a picture that is pathetic in the extreme, and it will be extremely damaging to the country as a whole if it is allowed to develop. Whole families are now taking flight. The reason is that they are unable to bear their family budget with the resources at their disposal, either through the sale of what they produce or even with the help of the social welfare benefits obtainable. They have given up the struggle. It has become unequal. It is worthy of note that that struggle really became unequal since the Budget of 1957, the policy of which was to raise the price of essential foodstuffs, and that policy has been incorporated in our national Budgets since.

It is good to know that, side by side with this picture of gloom, the incentives given to our industrialists are beginning to bear fruit. We on this side of the House can take credit for having conceived the idea and the Government can take credit for having realised it was a good idea and putting it into operation. That may be a good policy as a part-time policy to get things under way, but for how long can incentives costing so much be continued? I have read that the Taoiseach said, and I think I have heard him say on a few occasions since he became Taoiseach, that the day was fast approaching when the whole tariff policy of this country would have to be reviewed and when it would be necessary to be in a position to compete with those offering similar services in other countries.

Deputy Russell referred to the high cost of Government. I remember the Minister for Finance, when introducing his first Budget, promising that that cost would be reduced. I do not think the reduction, if any, has been considerable, nor do I think that the two things announced in relation to the civil service will be as good as people think. It would be well if the Government examined the matter of University education in the light of its contractual nature. How can they force anyone trained in law, economics or anything else to remain as servants of the Government when they can command a job worth three times the amount of money in this country or elsewhere? All they could do is to take back the fees spent on the education. It is unfair to the people already in the service and it is not a system of recruitment that would give the best value. If you want to attract people of that kind you must create a special grade and pay them. The abolition of the clerical officers grade for men is one which will result in more emigration of our manhood and we shall reach the stage eventually when our civil service will be composed, in the main, of women.

Much has been said, not only on this Estimate, about private enterprise. I think we would all agree with the sentiment expressed by Deputy Russell that private enterprise should be the basis of our industrial expansion except where the enterprise is of such a stature that it cannot be undertaken by private individuals. I do not accept for a moment the views expressed by Deputy Dr. Browne that Socialism is the answer and that everything should be done by State enterprise. I can see the danger into which that could lead us. I would rather have private enterprise and have the strike weapon left in the hands of the workers, even if it is abused, than a regimented community in which individual rights would be suppressed and in which freedom would no longer exist.

The prosperity of this or any other country must be based on long term planning. The plan must have as a necessary ingredient the fact that it is propagandised as a long term plan so that the people can accept it as such and take the good year with the bad year. It is no use growing something this year, having a bumper crop, growing much more next year, having a bad crop and then growing nothing the following year. That is bad economics.

I think the Taoiseach will put the best face on things and will continue to use the expression used by himself and other Ministers from time to time in this House or throughout the country that everything is well, that things are beginning to take a turning for the better, that prosperity is looming up ahead. All these statements make queer reading, indeed, for our agricultural community who are bringing their cattle on fruitless drives to the fairs, to the people who are travelling by bus and by train from the furthermost parts of the country in an effort to get work elsewhere.

What is the basis for these happy pronouncements? Are there figures to show that there has been an increase in employment, that there has been a decrease in emigration, that the drift has been halted? I think the Taoiseach would do well, even at this late hour, and would do himself a great personal service and the office he holds a greater service, if he admitted here and now that on the 11th November 1955 he did have a plan for 100,000 new jobs by the injection of £100,000,000 into the economy of the country, that he was mistaken, and that it was something that did not prove feasible when he came into office. That would be the honourable course to take. I am not suggesting that the Taoiseach is not capable of taking an honourable course. I believe he is, that he should do so and that if he does it might be a turning point in the thinking of our people who have come to regard all of us here as people who have no word, who are capable of promising anything at the moment to bring us an immediate reward instead of contemplating what is best for our people and devoting our thoughts, words and actions to their benefit in so far as the power within us lies.

Slightly over 12 months ago the present Taoiseach's name came before the House for nomination as Taoiseach. I happened to speak that night and I made a statement that some people throughout the country could not understand that I was sorry I would have to vote against him because, in my years in the House from 1943, I looked on Deputy Lemass, later Minister for Industry and Commerce, as a decent man. The reason I gave for voting against his nomination was that I believed the people I represented, the people in rural Ireland, thought he would not be a suitable person, as he held the city outlook.

I could not blame him for that. He is a city-born man, but I gave it as my reason for voting against him. I listened to him here this afternoon in his introduction of his Estimate and he glossed over rural Ireland and only referred to its problems in passing. He even went so far as to say that, as far as agriculture was concerned, that Estimate had been discussed and he would not touch it again. To make things worse he referred to another very important item. I shall not refer to the 100,000 new jobs; they have now grown into 100,000,000 new jobs, they have been mentioned so often.

He just told us that a few Japs, a few Germans and a few Americans are about to start something in some part of Ireland and that round the corner there will be employment some time. What good will that employment be when all our people have gone away? In the last four years 200,000 left the land; 50,000 a year went. Yet, after nearly 18 months in office, the Taoiseach introduces his Estimate and just glosses over rural Ireland and over agriculture, the backbone of the nation. That cannot be denied. I am sure Deputy Corry will tell him that.

The Taoiseach knows that he has behind him a group who will do what they are told and as they are told and nod every time he tells them nod in the appropriate direction. When the vote is taken at 2 o'clock, or whenever it is taken, he will have a majority, all ordered to get away until October 26th and come back again. When I was a young lad I was told stories. I was told that in certain parts of Ireland people sometimes found what was called the leprechaun. If you could catch one—he was always at the end of the rainbow—he would surely show you where there was a crock of gold. Listening to the Taoiseach to-night— not that I want to make the comparison—it struck me that if anyone ever acted the leprechaun it was the Taoiseach in telling us that if you keep on around the corner there is gold but you must keep turning and keep on the road. It is as likely a story as that of the leprechaun and his crock of gold. We shall never reach it but it is always coming.

Whether the Taoiseach knows of them or not, it is my job to tell him of the antics of Fianna Fáil throughout the country. In Galway—I am glad to see one Galway Deputy here at the moment—there is a County Council on which Fianna Fáil, I regret to say, have a majority. That is not my fault. Not so long ago a resolution was passed unanimously by that Council with its Fianna Fáil majority. I think it was proposed by a Fianna Fáil T.D. who is a councillor. That resolution was to the effect that the Local Authorities (Works) Act be restored.

That does not arise on this Estimate.

Allow me to say, Sir, it does. The present Government suspended the Local Authorities (Works) Act. That was Government policy and I think I am entitled to discuss it.

It is not relevant. It might be relevant on the Estimate for the appropriate Department but it is certainly not relevant on this Estimate.

I take it that it was Government policy—I shall cut it short——

The Taoiseach is not responsible for the administration of the Act.

On a point of order, the Taoiseach asked local authorities to submit schemes, suggestions or plans to increase production and employment. Many local authorities submitted that the Local Authorities (Works) Act should be restored as one of the most immediate means of increasing employment and production and that plan was put to the Taoiseach. I submit that it is his responsibility.

I must point out to the Deputy and the House that the Vote for the Department of the Taoiseach provides an opportunity for debating only major aspects of Government policy.

I am not discussing details of the Act.

On a point of order, there was no opportunity to discuss the administration of the Act on the Estimate for Local Government because no money was provided in that Vote. There was a Government decision to scrap the Act.

The matter is not relevant at the moment.

Down the country, they wanted the Act. Deputy McQuillan brought a motion to the House to have the Act restored and the four Fianna Fáil Deputies, who are members of Galway County Council and who voted for it in Galway, walked into the Lobby here and voted against it. Where is the consistency? Is it one thing down in Galway and another in Dáil Éireann?

As I have pointed out, it does not arise at all now and the Deputy must get away from that subject.

This reminds me of what is happening generally in the country. I am certain that the newspapers are read here but I happen to have a copy of The Kerryman, dated 25th June, 1960—Deputy Corry will be interested in this. If anybody wants to see it I shall give it to him. The heading is: “Healy is No Yes-man... Tadhg Healy Resigns from Fianna Fáil.” I do not know what the laughing is about. He gives eight reasons and every one of them starts with the word “Because”. It reminds me of the song: “Because I Love You So.”

Because I do not love you so.

I am sure it would interest the Taoiseach. Probably he did not see this, but it would surely be of interest to him to know the reasons why that gentleman, who was a supporter of Fianna Fáil, "chucked in", so to speak.

The Deputy should make an effort to come to the Estimate.

I think I am on the Estimate. Emigration is dealt with here. Anyhow, one of the reasons he gave was the irresponsible action of the Minister for Health in dismissing Surgeon Hurley from the County Hospital, Mallow.

Unless the Deputy comes to the Estimate, I shall ask him to resume his seat. This has no relevance to the Department under discussion at the moment.

It shows the fraud of Fianna Fáil. That is what I am trying to point out. As you have made the ruling, I shall come to the Estimate. One section of the community the Taoiseach, the Government or any future Government must look after is the small tillage farmers. They are the backbone of the nation. The position in the west of Ireland to-day is that the man with the holding of £10 to £20 valuation has gone away. In former days the father or mother of a family selected what they considered the best member of the family to whom to give the place. Now the entire family emigrate and in many cases the father and mother emigrate with them, the key is turned in the lock and the house is left derelict. In the village where I live there were 11 families at one time. To-day there are only seven. The reason is that the small farmer has to depend on a few cattle, a few sheep, a pig and what he can get for potatoes or the few acres of crops that he raises. Last year the few sheep that he had could not be sold. In the later part of last year he had to pay £22 and £24 each for suck calves. Having kept them for 12 months, he will not get what he paid for them 12 months ago.

The potato crop last year was good. I am afraid it will not be as good this year. Last year the potatoes had to be thrown by the ditch. The farmer had to sell them in the market at 3d. a stone in Galway and Mayo.

Deputy Corry often refers to wheat. We have not land in the West on which to grow wheat. The only crop for which the small farmer in the west of Ireland got any return was beet, for which he had the slave labour of his own family that he could not afford to pay. This year a farmer who wanted to add a half acre or a rood to his acreage of beet was told that he could not do it. The reason for that is that there is a certain penal tariff imposed by the British Sugar Board. That penal tariff cost us over £800,000 on sugar that we exported last year. The tariff on the sugar we exported was distributed to our competitors from Commonwealth countries who were exporting sugar to England. I would ask the Taoiseach and the Government to see that that penal tariff be abolished so that the small farmer can grow whatever acreage of beet he wishes.

The Taoiseach may talk about industries to be established. The one industry that has proved its worth and that will not be rooted out of the country is the sugar industry. The reason for that is that the raw material is produced at home and our people produce that raw material willingly. In no small way the success of that industry is due to the General Manager. He recognised the producer and regarded him as of first importance. He appreciated the producer and looked after him. The credit for the establishment of the industry goes to the first Government that we had. For the success that has attended it the General Manager deserves credit.

Some time ago the Taoiseach made certain reference to "the Government of Northern Ireland." I could hardly believe it. As far as we are concerned and as far as the Constitution is concerned, there is no such thing as "the Government of Northern Ireland." There is a puppet Government holding six of our northern counties. It is not the Government of Northern Ireland. I hope I shall not hear from the Taoiseach again the expression, "the Government of Northern Ireland." There is no such thing.

Not long ago Deputy Booth, referring to a remission of death duties, said that this was the dearest country in the world in which to die. I do not know about that because I have not died yet but I know it is the dearest country to live in. Fianna Fáil have made it dear for the man who has to live in it and, according to Deputy Booth, it is the dearest country to die in.

I have given as honestly as I can my views in relation to rural Ireland. I would ask the Taoiseach to turn his attention in that direction. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance said recently by way of interruption that the small farmer is getting everything, that he is getting a reduction in rates. I put it to the Taoiseach that the land of this country soon will not be worth the poor rates on it. The main cause of the increase in the poor rates was the abolition of the food subsidies by Fianna Fáil. When there was an increase in the price of food supplied to institutions the county councils had to increase the rates accordingly. Wages were increased to meet the increased cost of living caused by the abolition of the subsidies. That reacted on the local authorities and, in turn, on the ratepayers. The result is that at the moment in many parts of the west of Ireland the land is not worth the poor rates levied on it. I would appeal to the Taoiseach to reconsider the question of the subsidies. People at one time used to buy a bag of flour; today they are buying only a stone of flour, which is all they can afford. I would ask him to restore the subsidies and to restore the Local Authorities (Works) Act, two things which were of importance to our people. Tribute should be paid to the late Tadhg Murphy, who as Minister for Local Government introduced that Act.

As I have already pointed out to the Deputy, the matter does not arise on this Estimate.

I am simply asking the Taoiseach to restore the Act. It should be remembered that it is the tenant farmers, the people on the land who are the mainstay of our economy. The people in other industries are only trafficking in money, buying a pound's worth and selling it for £1 1/- or £1 5/-, whatever they can get for it. Any new money coming into this country, apart from what our emigrants are sending in, is coming from the land. It is gained by the toil and sweat of the workers on the land. Those are the people who should get first consideration, regardless of what Government is in power. They are the people who are leaving us. The more of them who go the greater the loss will be and when they have all gone there will be no use in complaining about it.

I did not intend to intervene in this debate except on one matter, that is, that when we come back here in October the farmers will be discussing with the Sugar Company the contracts for the year 1961.

That matter would scarcely be relevant on the Vote for the Department of the Taoiseach. It would be one for the Department of Agriculture.

I am dealing with the Trade Agreement and the breach of the Trade Agreement which, as has been admitted on all sides now, has been committed. I am referring to Deputy Dillon's statement on Article 5 of the 1948 Trade Agreement which states:

The Government of the United Kingdom undertook that where goods, the growth, produce or manufacture of Ireland are dutiable at preferential rates of duty they will not vary the existing preferential treatment of these goods in such a way as to put any class of goods, the growth, produce or manufacture of Ireland at a disadvantage in relation to goods of that class from other sources enjoying preferential treatment.

I hold that the present levy placed on sugar and sugar goods leaving this country for Britain is a breach of that clause of the agreement inasmuch as that levy has been used for the purpose of subsidising against our produce the produce of the Commonwealth countries sending sugar to Britain. It represents a market of £2,000,000. In speaking of the position of farmers I have in mind what Deputy Donnellan said: he took up a line here by listening to what I have been stating since last January on this matter. I also have in mind the position of farmers in my own constituency where this is practically a life and death matter as it is for the tillage farmers of Wexford, Tipperary, Kilkenny and Carlow.

The Taoiseach should take up this matter immediately with the British Government. We have from now until next October when the next beet contracts will be issued. When the beet contracts are issued it will be too late to look for an increased acreage of beet or to look for that market to which we of the agricultural community are entitled just as the people manufacturing artificial manures or manufacturing agricultural machinery for our use, are entitled to preference and to protection of their markets here.

Deputy Donnellan gave a reason why the sugar industry was a good one. I put forward the greatest reason of all, that is, that a body of us farmers drawn from different Parties— Deputy Lehane from the Farmers' Party, the late Deputy Hughes from the Fine Gael Party, the late Deputy Beegan from our Party and myself— came together and laid down the political franchise of the agricultural community, that they should be paid for the produce of their land at least the cost of production plus a fair profit.

The Deputy is embarking on a discussion on agricultural policy which is not relevant on the Vote for the Taoiseach's Department.

If the Chair rules on that line—that agriculture is not relevant on this Vote—then I would ask the Chair why agricultural policy —the production of beet and of the sugar which we use—was not relevant on the Vote for Agriculture or on the Vote for Industry and Commerce last week. All I can do is to refer the whole matter to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, which I shall do very definitely. If the Chair rules me out of order in this way, I shall not go any further on it except to appeal to the Taoiseach on this Anglo-Irish Trade Agreement, while he has the opportunity now, to see that a market worth £2,000,000 to our farmers is preserved. On the general Estimate, I should like to raise the position in regard to beet and sugar but I have been ruled out of order. I am referring that to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges together with the stopping of my references to the position during the debate on Industry and Commerce and Agriculture.

The rulings of the Chair may not be discussed during the debate on the Department of the Taoiseach.

It will be discussed in the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. As regards farmers leaving the rural areas, I should like to deal with two points of view. I should like to allude to the position in respect of the wages paid in agriculture as compared with those of workers in industrial pursuits in this country. The wage under which beet is produced in this country is £5 10s. per week for a labourer. It is upon that wage that the costings of beet production are made up. Compare that with the wage paid in any industry. If a young man employed as an agricultural labourer at £5 10s. walked into Irish Steel Holdings he would get £12 a week. Would he not be a damned idiot if he did not take it?

The wages paid to agricultural workers are not relevant on this debate.

Perhaps the position in industry where a labourer can get a wage of £12 a week by comparison with the position obtaining in agriculture is relevant. We in the agricultural areas, on account of the prices we get for our produce, cannot pay a higher wage than that. We, too, find that costs are going up. Our rates have practically doubled in ten years due to the Health Act and all those other Acts. But the prices we get for our produce have been reduced. That is why you have the doors locked and the farmers gone.

I should like to congratulate the Taoiseach and the Government on behalf of my constituents for the work they have done in the past three years, as far as the area I represent is concerned. You cannot find to-day in my constituency ten men looking for work. In fact, we have to go up to Mayo, to Deputy Lindsay's area, when we want workers to single our beet or to harvest it. We are looking for those men who had previously to go to try and find work in England.

And bring them down there at £5 a week?

They are very glad to come and they get much better conditions from us than from the farmers in Britain; at least we treat them like human beings. I would remind Deputies of the appeals which the former Deputy O'Gorman, who represented the constituency with me, made in years gone by when he had to stand up here and make appeals from the bottom of his heart for the unfortunate unemployed men in Youghal. Where are they to-day?

They have all gone.

Some Deputies might like to hear it. Welcoming teachers last year when they held their Congress in Youghal, Mr. O'Gorman told them: "Welcome to a historic town which has no unemployment." I was very glad when I opened the newspaper this morning to find that the wire factory there is being extended and giving employment to a further 80 hands in a town which already has no unemployment. The people who have gone to England can come back to us. We shall give them work. What a change this is in the past few years. The same applies to Midleton. To-day you cannot find an unemployed man there. In that background we must recall the conditions at the end of 1956 and early in 1957, under Deputy Lindsay's Government. Over 100,000 workers were queueing up looking for work because the local authorities had no money, because there was no confidence in the Government, because nobody was prepared to invest money in industry. We must remember that state of affairs in which a Government were driven from office three years after coming in because they had no money to pay off their debts.

I remember the Vote for £250,000 which was passed here in 1953, for the extension of the Irish Steel Mills at Haulbowline. What became of that money? To what use was that money put which was intended for the extension of an industry? Why was it that that extension stopped three months after the Fianna Fáil Government left office? That was the position until Deputy Seán Lemass came back again to turn the wheels of the mills and get them going. For once let us look things in the face and let us look at them as we find them. Every week for the past four months 50 men have travelled over there to work, an extra 50 every week for that industry. That is the position now. Before we took over office in 1932 you had an auction of scrap and machinery at Haulbowline every six months. That was the only time you saw any activity there except for a few caretakers who were strolling around pretending to oil the works. To-day that island is a hive of industry. To-day on that island there are over 600 men permanently employed in Irish Steel and the outlook is that within the next two years that number will have increased to 1,000.

That is a change. That is the outlook, that the young men will no longer have to go abroad to look for employment. That is the change which you can see on the spot and I invite any Deputy to come and look over the works himself. At Rush-brooke Dockyard there are 400 men busily employed in building a new dockyard and anybody who reads the newspapers will have seen that the first group of our young men have come back from Holland, fully trained, to start work as steel workers and over 200 more have been called in for training. That is a change which I have witnessed in my own constituency. Those are the facts and nobody can deny them.

I am not at all selfish and I should like to see something being done for Fermoy which is the one blot left in my constituency. I should like to see some industries being started there to give employment. I should like to see industries started in an area in which I travelled during the recent county council elections—places such as Skibbereen and Clonakilty which require industries. The openings are there and with a little encouragement the people will get the industries going and give employment to their people. That is what is required. What was required at first was to make the people confident that the Government would help them. That confidence was not there and therefore there was nothing done whilst the inter-Party Government were in office. That was their record. The people had no confidence that if money were voted for an industry, or for the extension of an industry, they would get the money, as happened in the case of Irish Steel. So far as the young people are concerned I have the utmost confidence that with the extension of industry we shall find further employment for them.

I have no doubt that most of us can find grounds for growling off and on about this, that or the other thing, but what we are all concerned with is that we should not have any district in which the father and mother are rearing up a family with only one out-look—the emigrant ship. I am sure if Deputy T. Lynch spoke the truth he would say there have been many changes and many industries started in his county since he saw the inter-Party Government leave office in 1957.

Not by Fianna Fáil.

A whole lot of them.

We got five of them during our time.

When I come back on the 26th October I shall list them for the Deputy.

I shall list them now.

There is no doubt about that. I hate to see a Deputy singing dumb just because it is the other fellow who is doing the work. I do not care who does it so long as employment is given. That is the position in my constituency, and I am very proud of it.

The Deputy should if——

I invite Deputy Corish to come down——

I am taking the Deputy's word for it.

He will send down 500 men on an excursion.

That is why Dan Casey beat the Deputy.

The muddler who had the whole of our finances bankrupt in two years will have to stop talking. I have room for anyone but the Deputy. Those are the conditions in my constituency and I am very proud of the Government and the Leader of the Government who succeeded in bringing that about.

God preserve me from my friends.

Earlier to-day I mentioned that on the adjournment last year I received no opportunity of making my contribution. I want the Chair to understand that I do not think the ruling is unfair in any way. I think the Chair is pretty fair in spite of the views of some Deputies. At least I get a fair hearing. I suppose with 147 Deputies an Independent Deputy cannot expect too much in proportion to the numbers of each of the groups here. I came here as an Independent and I was sent here by people who have little faith in Parties. They are a considerable number judging by the apathy in the recent municipal elections. I represent a good many of them. However, having being sent here I intend to say my piece and I am not claiming to be always an expert. But 80 per cent. of the people are not experts. Nevertheless they have certain feelings and they expect me to speak for them.

The previous speaker always puts up a fairly good show, but I am not fully in agreement with him that there is as much prosperity in the country as he says. He may be fortunate enough in parts of his constituency, but I represent a Dublin constituency and I am aware that there are at least 20,000 unemployed persons in Dublin. I am not aware of any factories that have been opened in Dublin in the past 12 months and I am certainly not aware of any unemployed manual workers who have found employment in the past 12 months. I am aware that factories have been opened from time to time which employ girls, but I do not know that the employment of girls is of any great assistance to a family.

The employment of manual workers would mean an income of £8 per week to a family, but the employment of a girl under 16 years of age means only 25/- a week to a family. Over 16 years of age the wage would be £2 per week, and the maximum is £4 per week in the case of a girl over 18 years of age. As Deputies can see a factory can employ four girls of 16 years for the price of one labouring father or son. That is what I mean when I say that the type of employment obtainable in Dublin is mainly for girls. That is why there are so many unemployed manual workers in Dublin, and it is on their behalf I speak.

I am not an authority on agriculture and I shall leave that to other members of the House. I am not an authority on a number of matters, but on some matters I have as good a knowledge as anybody else and, as I say, I speak on these matters on behalf of a vast number who want me to speak about the things they need, things which were promised to them. They want to know why the things they were promised have not been delivered.

We had a wealth of discussion here tonight about the promises made by the Fianna Fáil Party. All Parties make promises. I heard one speaker mention a man who said he was a millionaire because he worked hard and told the truth. Machiavelli says differently. It has been my experience that it is very difficult to succeed in politics by telling the truth. I know that every time people come to me looking for houses I tell them they have no chance. They go away, saying: "You are no use". My wife often says to me: "Do not always tell the truth; say you will do the best you can" but that would be tantamount to a lie, and I will not tell a lie. I can quite see it is very difficult to succeed in politics by telling the truth.

I suppose, if the Fianna Fáil Party are blamed for telling lies, they are just doing what other Parties do to succeed. It may be their own fault but I suppose Parties who tell the truth would not succeed in being returned to office. By telling lies, and big lies, one can succeed—at least so the Baron said. However, it is my job as an Independent to call the bluff of the Parties. Fianna Fáil happen to be in power at present, and I shall certainly do my best to call their bluff. On another occasion, if I happen to be here, I shall call the bluff of other Parties who may be in power.

I want to say to the present Government that in spite of their promises of 100,000 jobs, and their later statement about putting husbands back to work, so far as Dublin city is concerned, very few husbands have been put back to work; only children of 15 or 16 years of age have been put to work. I should like to remind the Taoiseach that about a year ago I put down a Question asking what work of a constructive nature he had in mind in order that manual workers would obtain employment and he said he was prepared to consider schemes of economic merit and to encourage local bodies to put up proposals. We in the Dublin Corporation had a long session dealing with these proposals but, to my mind, we might as well have been dealing in red herrings.

I do not want to be unfair to the Taoiseach. I believe he is a man with his head on his shoulders and his feet on the ground. The fact that I make that statement about the Taoiseach, does not mean that I think the same about his Party. I believe he has done as much as any Party leader could do. What he has failed to do, of course, is to implement the promises he made— particularly the promise about putting so many people into work. The people are anxious to know what hopes they have of work, especially work of the magnitude he promised.

We have been told that the whole policy here is productivity, and to me that means more production at less cost. How that can create employment beats me, because if more is to be produced people will produce that more at a lesser cost, and they can do so only by the use of machinery or automation, or by employing fewer people. How the Taoiseach hopes to implement his promises of employment, I should like to know.

Again, as I say, while he may create employment for certain technicians and children, how he hopes to create employment for the manual workers, and particularly for the manual workers in Dublin, I should like to know. One of the reasons the people sent me here was to put questions to those who made promises, to make difficulties for the Government by asking awkward questions. That is my policy here. It will continue to be my policy to ask the straight questions: when are they going to produce the goods they promised? When are they going to ease the position in Dublin city for the 20,000 unemployed workers?

There are a few other matters which I think are the responsibility of the Taoiseach. I want to mention one matter because I think it should be mentioned on the Adjournment Debate. I refer to the Partition of this country. I realise that nothing much can be done. Nevertheless, it is one of the problems of the State and it is one of the Taoiseach's responsibilities. Mention of Partition should at least be made. If we reach the stage at which we no longer want to bother, at which we no longer think it worth mentioning, we shall reach the stage which has been reached in Scottish and Welsh politics where the freedom of those countries is no longer a matter of practical politics. We shall reach the stage, as far as the North is concerned, at which we shall cease to have hope.

That will be the position if we cease to talk about Partition. If it were nothing other than just talking about it and making a protest we should do so at all times on the Adjournment of this House. Some reference should be made to Partition if for no reason other than to maintain that passion for independence which seems inborn in us. If we ever lose that passion and that interest, Partition will cease to be a matter of any political importance in the country. I shall mention it on each occasion, even if nothing comes of it.

I hope I shall not have to walk to Portmarnock tonight. That is where I reside. I am bound to get a lift. I consider it my duty to stay and to say a few words on behalf of the people who sent me here. I want to protest against the magnitude of unemployment in the city of Dublin. On the national plane, I want to protest against the continuation of Partition, even if nothing can come of it, because it is our duty to refer to it and to protest. I will say for the last Taoiseach that at all times he referred to it. While nothing much can be done, it is our duty never to forget that the problem is there. It is a problem just as unemployment is a problem and with these two issues I am particularly concerned.

As an Independent and not as a member of the Government Party I hope I shall introduce a refreshing note. I do not feel it is the duty of an Opposition at all times to speak against Government policy and to express pessimism. Deputy Sherwin, my colleague from Dublin, is disappointed with the unemployment position and the failure of the Government to provide jobs. I hope I shall never again hear hackneyed utterances regarding 100,000 jobs and: "Put your husbands out to work." I have heard such utterances on more occasions than I care to remember.

I am acquainted with the building trade. Whether it is due to emigration or some other factor, there are no skilled workers available in Dublin at present. I shall leave it to the House to decide whether that is due to emigration or whether we have at last turned the corner referred to by the last speaker. I hope we have turned the corner.

The Government and, I am sure, their predecessors in office, must have the ambition to provide good government. I should like, in particular, to ask the Taoiseach about the means test and the ceiling. The matter is vitally important to people in need of help. Increases were sponsored by this House for Judges, civil servants, Deputies and others because of the increased cost of living. Old age pensioners and other people are being penalised to such an extent that it is a disgrace. I appeal to the Taoiseach to see that there is some change.

The Taoiseach is responsible for Government policy. If he did nothing but help the people on whose behalf I speak in this matter so as to give them a measure of equity in our community, his leadership and direction would not be in vain. I referred on another occasion to a person who is penalised. He gave everything to the country and is one of only two, as I understand it, who has not benefited. The Act in question is preventing him from enjoying what normally would be his right.

I would also ask the Taoiseach to give consideration to the factor under the Department of Local Government which prevents a person who has not five children from enjoying the benefit of poor law relief——

That surely would be a matter for the Department of Local Government.

I appreciate that, but I am talking about Government policy.

The Deputy may not discuss Departmental policy.

Could I ask the Taoiseach to make the necessary provisions within his Department for the amendment of the conditions that exist at present? We are discussing the Taoiseach's Department.

The general policy of the Government.

The general policy of the Government.

For which the Taoiseach is responsible—not Departmental policy.

Can I appeal to the Taoiseach to make the necessary amendments in Government policy?

Of course we might discuss every Government Department on that basis.

It is seldom I speak——

I am not interested in interrupting the Deputy but I must be fair to other Deputies who have been limited also.

I accept. I merely would ask the Taoiseach to take into consideration the question of alleviating the distress brought about by virtue of Government policy administered by him.

The theme of the Government as outlined by the Taoiseach and, indeed, as outlined by the Minister for Finance in the Budget speech some two months ago is that everything in the garden is beautiful. I wonder in what sphere is the Taoiseach living? He must have gone into the stratosphere. He certainly cannot have any contact with the country. Anybody who goes up and down the country at the present time knows perfectly well that the people in the country feel exactly the reverse.

The theme of the Government is that we are swimming along; that everything is perfect and that the Government deserve to be clapped on the back for it—clapped on the back for what? For greater emigration in the past three years than there was for a very long time before.

How long?

I shall tell Deputy Moloney what happened in Kerry and Deputy Moloney can go down to Kerry and ask whether it is true or not. His own supporters will tell him it is true. Houses and farms have been shut up in the past three years. The owners have gone away. The whole pattern that there used to be of one or two young people leaving the family and going away to seek their reward elsewhere is finished. Since Fianna Fáil came back in 1957 that pattern is gone. The pattern now is that the key is turned in the lock. That is not only true of Kerry but I think it is true throughout the whole west of Ireland. Unfortunately, it is even true in regard to my own constituency of Kildare where the situation is not what it used to be of one or two people leaving a family and the roots remaining behind. Now, when people go, the whole family packs up and goes.

The Government think everything is beautiful in the garden. It is not only the Government who seem to work on the same principle. Other people, too, believe that by saying and repeating things often enough they will become what they are not. I was amused particularly to read the last Central Bank Report and to put it side by side with the previous one. I want to choose my words quite deliberately.

The Central Bank has a function in our economy. Their function is to tell the truth, whether it hurts the Government in power or not. I regret to say that the Central Bank have departed from their duty in the last Report. I am going to repeat it. I do not mind where I repeat it. In 1959 the Central Bank correctly ascribed certain drops in production to the disastrous harvest of 1958. They were right; I have said it often enough in this House and I repeat it often enough in this House.

They made a report this year. What did they say? Did they start, as it was their duty as impartial observers to start, from an average year? They did not; they took as their base the year that they had themselves previously stated was an abnormally low year and they tried to make their prognostications from that. I do not blame the Central Bank for having been totally wrong when in their Report for the year 1959 they said that agricultural production in the current year, the year ended last March, was going to revive and that there was every reason to believe that 1959-60 would be a year in which there would be progress in agricultural production as there had been in earlier years.

I thought everybody realised that the Central Bank Report impinged on our economic policy as a whole.

Only an analysis.

This year did they go back on that? Not at all. They took the line of starting in a most dishonest fashion from the previous year in calculating their three and a half per cent. real income increase from the previous year which they had correctly stated was due to the adverse weather conditions of the harvest year of 1958. We shall not progress unless we make an effort truthfully to assess what our possibilities are.

The truthful assessment of our possibilities is that we have not progressed at all since 1957. The gross national product at constant prices is up one-tenth of one per cent. per annum since 1957 and that is a shocking situation compared with the rest of the world. In the first six months of 1959 Swedish exports increased by ten per cent. Ours increased by a half per cent. That is something in respect of which the Taoiseach would like us to believe that everything in the garden is wonderful.

We have got a position here in which in relation to our balance of payments last year we ate into the capital to save on current account. I am delighted to know that we had the capital transactions to meet the balance on current account but nobody can say that it is satisfactory to be living on capital. We have a balance of payments situation this year which from all the indications we can get is a carry-over of exports not put through last year. Either we were in default last year or we had the carry-over and did not use it last year. That means we are in default this year.

We have been terribly lucky in that the terms of trade have turned with us all the way but nobody can believe for one second that we are in anything like a satisfactory position. The truth of the matter is that in relation to employment the Government have failed miserably to redeem the promises they made to the electorate at the last election.

In relation to the cost of living, this Government have failed miserably to redeem the promise they made at the last election. In relation to production, with a great flourish of trumpets, they said they would be able, when they came in, to shoot up production, agricultural and industrial, at once. They have failed miserably to get any adequate overall increase. There has, of course, been some, but the issue is not whether or not there has been some increased production. The issue is whether we are keeping pace with the rest of the world. As against keeping pace, we have gone back since Fianna Fáil assumed office. There is only one way in which there can be any alleviation of the situation. That is that a Government who do not know where they are going should get out and make way for those who do. We heard the Taoiseach today talk about G.A.T.T. He talked in terms that clearly showed that he has thrown overboard all the policies he has adumbrated and held for the last 25 years; and it is not merely the Taoiseach alone who realises the import of what he has said about G.A.T.T. His former friends outside, on whom he has depended in the past, realise it too.

At this late hour of the night——

Early hour in the morning.

——and in this end-of-term atmosphere I do not intend to try to deal with all the absurdities and falsehoods spoken by Deputies on the other side of the House during the course of this discussion. I confess that some of them irritated me, but it is my hope that I will be able to send Deputies into the Adjournment in good humour if I am allowed.

I was, I confess, taken aback by the tone of some of the speeches. Recently I read a report of what I regarded as an important speech delivered by Dr. Greene, the very intelligent President of the National Farmers' Association. He said, amongst other things worth noting, that there is a need in this country to make humbug unfashionable. If Dr. Greene had been in the Gallery yesterday and had listened to some of the speeches delivered here he would realise that his hope of making humbug unfashionable will not be realised very soon.

Hear, hear. This is some of it.

He would realise how ill-founded his hope was if he had listened, in particular, to the speech of Deputy Dillon. I know an addiction to humbug is very hard to break, but I honestly do not think Deputy Dillon is even trying.

When I was deciding upon the form of the speech I would make introducing this Estimate I came to the conclusion that I should not devote the same amount of time to the problems and the prospects of agriculture as I intended to devote to other topics. I knew Deputy Dillon would say that that was evidence that I had no interest in agriculture and did not appreciate its importance in relation to the national economy. Deputy Dillon is in grave danger of becoming known here as the Deputy-of-one-speech-only, because there is very little difference, even in the verbiage he used, between the speech he delivered yesterday evening, the speech he delivered on the Budget and the speech he delivered earlier on the Vote on Account.

I deliberately decided that, the Dáil having being occupied in debating the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture for four of the five last days on which it has met, it would not be necessary for me to cover the same ground. But there was a further reason. At seven o'clock this evening I am due to address the annual convention of Macra na Feirme in Limerick. I propose to talk there mainly upon agricultural topics. In so far as that address is reported in the papers I hope Deputies will regard it as an addendum to the speech I delivered yesterday afternoon.

The aim of the Government is to make agriculture more productive and more profitable to the farmers. We are seeking to do that by various methods, of which Deputies are well aware. We have extended considerably the range of fertiliser subsidies. We propose to extend it still further later in the year. We have provided very substantial aids to increased agricultural efficiency and, in so far as the problem is one of marketing, we have indicated in a White Paper the nature of legislation we intend to introduce to strengthen the marketing arrangements in existence and the Dáil will have an opportunity of debating that legislation later in the year. It is utterly nonsensical and absurd to suggest, as Deputy Dillon appeared to suggest, that there is a necessary conflict between the aim of expanding agricultural production and that of stimulating industrial expansion simultaneously. To suggest that is to suggest that the Danes and the Dutch, and other European countries, do not know what they are doing.

I never suggested any such thing, and the Taoiseach well knows that.

They have a far more progressive agriculture than we have yet achieved. At the same time they are striding ahead at least as rapidly as we are in industrial development, and in one case with considerably more rapidity. As I said, it is absurd to suggest we cannot do likewise.

Let me deal now with this question of the 100,000 new jobs. I do not expect that anything I may say in this regard will convince Deputies opposite that what I said in 1955 was sensible and has a direct relationship to the policy the Government is now applying. In 1955, I attempted to review the economic conditions then prevailing, using as the basis for that review the available statistics, which related to the year 1954. I then estimated that, if we were to bring about a position of full employment and create a sufficient number of new jobs to abolish the then existing back-log of unemployment, and provide for the number of people leaving school each year who would require paid employment in order to secure their livelihoods, we would need to create, over five years, a situation in which 100,000 new jobs would be established in the country. That estimate was made, as I said, in 1955. It was based on the 1954 statistics, relating to the period just after the Coalition Government had come into office. Conditions had changed very considerably when the people succeeded in getting them out of office again.

But the Taoiseach still got a lot of votes on the promise.

In the last year of the Coalition Government the number of people in paid employment went down by 50,000. Surely that was a relevant factor in the situation. In the three years of the Coalition Government 135,000 people emigrated. Deputies spoke here yesterday evening as if the problem of emigration was of recent origin. Neither last year, nor the year before, was the number of emigrants, as calculated in passenger movement statistics, equal to the number in any single year in which the Coalition Government were in office.

For the purpose of my calculation then, and any calculation I may attempt now, I do not suggest that the 135,000 people who emigrated in those years, or all those who emigrate now are necessarily wage earners who could have been kept in this country by the provision here of jobs for them. Everybody who wants seriously to understand our problem of emigration knows that it is not merely a matter of creating new jobs here. There are other factors operating. Many of those who emigrate leave employment here. Indeed, in the last two months I have had discussions with people who have started important new industries and they expressed to me their surprise that many of the workers they took in and trained, when they had completed their training, decided to leave their employment for the purpose of emigrating. They mentioned the additional established costs which they had to bear on that account and which they assumed would equally have to be borne by anybody establishing new enterprises here. I do not want to get involved in a deep analysis of the emigration situation at this hour but figures are thrown around here which always tend to exaggerate it, not that it is not serious and does not require our most urgent attention.

What proportion of those who do go are in positions——

Are wage earners? That information is not available. I said recently that we did now need 100,000 new jobs to end unemployment. The number of people registered as unemployed at the present time is less than 40,000 and it is many years since the number fell as low as that. I think it fair to assume that to absorb all those who leave school every year, and who require paid employment for the purpose of livelihood, we would need to have the prospect of about 15,000 new jobs every year.

Child labour.

Take these figures in relation to our recent experience. I said that in the second half of last year the number of people in paid employment, calculated on the number of social insurance stamps sold, was on weekly average 11,500 higher than in the corresponding period of the previous year. Basing our calculation on the same information—the number of social insurance, stamps sold—the weekly average is 20,000 more people in paid employment now than at the corresponding period last year.

Hear, hear!

Take these figures and relate them to the size of our problem and to the rate at which the economy is expanding at the present time and I think we can say that full employment, in the real sense of the term, is by no means an unrealisable aim. If we can continue to make progress in the industrial sphere and over all the economic activities of the country, and particularly if we can accelerate that progress, as I believe possible, then we will have reached the stage when even Deputies opposite will have to admit it is a practical objective.

But then very soon you are going to have a problem of scarcity of labour.

Then he can bring back the emigrants.

That will be a problem I shall be delighted to have to deal with.

It will be a real and difficult problem.

Personally I am convinced that this country through the economic expansion programme of the present Government, can achieve a condition of full employment, but I do not say it will be done this year or next year.

But I say it is a realisable aim.

The Taoiseach said 100,000 jobs within five years.

I am glad to note that Deputies opposite have been regarding the statement made in 1955. If they read that statement carefully they will find in it an indication of every policy the Government are now applying. I discussed it here in some detail a year ago and I explained fully the extent to which the ideas then expressed have since been applied, and the extent to which those ideas, on the basis of information since available, required to be modified.

The Central Bank do not agree with the Taoiseach on full employment.

The fundamental theory on which these proposals were based was that we could get the necessary economic expansion by increasing the range of public investment activity——

But you decreased it.

——and by directing it into more specifically productive operations and in that way stimulate a higher level of private investment activity. I invite any Deputy opposite who wants to consider this situation seriously to relate that idea to the figures I gave to-day regarding the expansion of public and private investment.

The whole of that speech was based on the idea that we are a closed economy when, in fact, we are an open economy.

I am afraid I do not understand that.

That is why you made that speech.

Deputy Dillon said this evening that he did not regard it as the Leader of the Opposition's duty to put forward any constructive proposals whatever. I invite him at least to contrast his attitude with the attitude we adopted when in opposition.

Your attitude was—

The very papers they were quoting from — or which they refused to quote from-indicated that when in opposition we did not hesitate to put forward our ideas and we did not care if the Government then in office adopted those ideas or not.

You do not care now either.

Do Deputies opposite think that any Party such as theirs can seriously hold themselves out as an alternative Government to that now in office on the ability they show to criticise and find fault? I doubt very much if they will sound very convincing to the public in that capacity. What has happened their own famous plan that we heard about a few months ago? Deputy MacEoin and Deputy O'Higgins announced solemly a few months ago that an elaborate plan for the development of the economy of the country was being prepared under the experienced guidance of Deputy Dillon. Has that been abandoned?

Go up to the Park to-night and ask for a dissolution and you will get the plan in the morning.

Then it is to be published on the eve of a general election and not before?

In due course before a general election.

Let us try to make humbug unfashionable for at least five minutes. Is there such a plan?

Who is working on it—the head of the brains trust, Deputy Lynch?

People could be personally offensive from this side as well.

It is not my habit to be personally offensive.

You can all shut down over there. You are only a trained dog's act.

May I say this was a compliment to Deputy Lynch?

You are not making me any compliment at all. Whatever brains I have and whatever I do. I always tell the truth. You would not know the truth. You denied your 100,000 jobs this evening.

I did not intend to be personally offensive to Deputy Lynch.

Admit you said it. It is there in print.

I must ask Deputy Lynch to leave the House——

I repeat that I did not mean it offensively to Deputy Lynch. I have not been half as offensive to Deputy Lynch as Deputy Dillon was to the Minister for Agriculture.

You would not know the truth.

I must ask the Deputy to leave the House if he insists on interrupting.

I am not interrupting, Sir. It is the Taoiseach who is provoking interruptions.

The Taoiseach is in possession and he is entitled to speak.

I am afraid the Deputy is not in good humour.

We can take it all right and can give it out too.

The Taoiseach, without interruption.

And without personalities too.

Deputy Dillon has refused to put forward constructive alternatives to the policies which the Government are applying. Leaving that aside for the moment, leaving aside whether this new programme will ever see the light of day, there are other questions upon which not merely members of the House but the public in general are entitled to know the views of Deputies opposite.

Deputy Sweetman has just been talking about G.A.T.T., and several times this year I have spoken about the developments taking place in Europe and about the attitude of the Government to those developments. I have explained our attitude regarding the European Free Trade Association and the European Common Market and I discussed here to-day our attitude towards joining G.A.T.T. Is there any Deputy in the House who has a hint of the views of the Fine Gael Party on those matters?

I am still awaiting the attitude of the Fianna Fáil Party to those matters.

Why do you take that attitude? Surely all the information that Deputies want to reach a conclusion is as available to them as it is to me and certainly, in so far as it was in my power to make available to Deputies, by statements here and otherwise, I have endeavoured to give them that information but without avail. Whether or not we are interested in their views on these matters surely their supporters in the country would be interested if they have any views to express? No Party in opposition and certainly no Party that ever hopes to be an alternative. Government can play their cards quite so close to their chests as all that. Sometimes they must show whether they are holding aces or deuces.

That is a dangerous line of country to travel on.

I realise very fully the difficult position the Fine Gael Party are in because they are in opposition to a Government which is successfully promoting the economic progress of the country.

Joke over.

Because of their attitude and because of their decision to confine themselves to criticism and fault-finding and not to put forward any constructive plans, they find themselves in the unfortunate position that they must regret and develop every new advance the country makes.

Such as?

One little factory in Shannon Airport has gone out of business. It was the smallest factory in the place, of no significance at all to that development; and the only reference to industrial progress made by Deputy Dillon was to the closing down of that puny factory.

That is scarcely accurate.

There is a modern idea that Parties win elections not so much because of the programmes they offer to the public and the speeches made by their leaders as by the image of themselves that they succeed in imprinting on the public mind. What image of themselves do the Fine Gael Party think they are imprinting on the public mind? A lot of old women! A lost tribe wandering in the wilderness, running around in circles. They will never get out of the wilderness unless they make up their minds to go on a straight line in some direction.

It is pretty obvious why the Taoiseach thought of women. He is remembering "Wives, get your husbands to work."

(Interruptions.)

I said I was trying to preserve a sense of good humour. There is one serious note I want to strike. Among all the speeches delivered here there was one which was exceptional in both substance and tone. I want to express "appreciation of the statement made here by Deputy J.A. Costello. It was in marked contrast, both in the matters to which he referred and the manner in which he dealt with them, with the other speeches we had. He referred to serious matters in a constructive commonsense. way; and I want to refer now to some of the matters he mentioned. He questioned the wisdom of the decision to locate the new economic development branch in the Department of Finance. He approved strongly of the decision to establish that branch, but he urged that it should be kept in the Department of the Taoiseach.

I do not agree with that. First of all, I think the Department of the Taoiseach is, because of its character, incapable of ensuring an effective system of administration in any organisation working directly to it. I believe that the picture in the public mind—and certainly in the mind of many Deputies—of the Department of Finance as a block on the road to national progress is a false picture. But to the extent that there may have been justification for it, it was we ourselves who made it possible. We always regarded the Department of Finance as being the Government's critic, the expert critic available to the Government of plans initiated in other Departments. For many years under the Fianna Fáil Government it was the accepted procedure that other Departments were responsible for the initiation of proposals and that it was the duty of the Department of Finance to criticise these proposals and ensure that by the time they reached the Government for decision, every possible argument, pro and con, would be available to Ministers.

During the past two or three years, and to a large extent because of the new approach to the work of the Department of Finance of the present Minister, Deputy Dr. Ryan, that situation has changed completely. Indeed as a Minister of long experience I still remember the shock of surprise I got shortly after I came back into office as Minister for Industry and Commerce when I got a letter from the Minister for Finance urging me to consider the practicability of some development which would have cost a great deal of money and which the Minister for Finance wanted to see go ahead. It was to help that process of change, to assist it and encourage it, that I decided that this economic development branch, which has specific responsibility in respect of the exploring of new development possibilities, should be co-ordinated with that Department. If Deputy Sweetman ever gets back or if Deputy Lynch ever replaces him there, they will find a new atmosphere in that Department.

I would be better than Deputy Briscoe selling Israeli bonds on commission.

That is a lie.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy J.A. Costello also referred to the matter of political patronage, and with almost all of what he said I am in complete agreement. It is perfectly true that the area now available for the exercise of Government patronage is very limited. Deputy Costello spoke particularly about the appointment of rate collectors. I do not know sufficient about the working of local authorities to make a comment on that. I know that there are very many members of county councils of my acquaintance who would very much like to be relieved of the responsibility of nominating persons for appointment as rate collectors, but I do not know what other procedure could be substituted for it. I am sure that the Minister for Local Government would be as interested as I am to explore possibilities in that regard.

As far as Government administration is concerned appointments in the nomination of a Minister without any process of examination or any selection board procedure relate only to very junior temporary staff mostly of the messenger and cleaner grades, with one exception: the subpostmasters. I personally know the view of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs that he would like very much to devise some system which would remove altogether from his responsibility the selection of subpostmasters and subpost-mistresses.

That may be the view of the Minister for Justice but it is not the practice of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Deputy Costello suggested that political Parties might lose votes at elections if they surrendered all these chances of patronage. I do not believe it. I believe the best thing any political Party can do is to avoid the exercise of patronage of any kind. For every position there will be 20 applicants, and only one can be successful. And the man who is successful does not always remain your supporter, as most of you know.

Deputy Costello referred to the impression that prevails in some quarters that the Government can also influence the allocation of grants to industrial firms embarking upon new enterprises. I know that impression exists. Deputies are aware that in respect to the income tax concessions which have been allowed to industrialists, they are stated in the law; and any firm that qualifies in accordance with the law receives these concessions. They also know that in respect of industrial grants, and other financial aids available to industrialists, we did our best by legislation to remove the Government entirely from the administration of these schemes. We set up statutory independent authorities and we gave them the last word in the allocation of these grants. We have repeatedly asserted here that the Government not merely do not attempt to check or veto the decisions of these authorities in respect of these matters, but they do not try to influence them in any way.

I know some people do not believe it. There are still people who, when they send an application in to the Industrial Development Authority or to An Foras Tionscal, for good measure send a copy to the Minister for Industry and Commerce or to myself. To an extent we here are responsible for the prevalence of that erroneous belief, because there are probably Deputies on this side who, when some firm succeeds in an application for an industrial grant suggest to them that it was because of representations made by them; and there are many Deputies on the other side who, when some firm is refused an industrial grant, attribute that refusal to the decision of the Government and probably say it was a result of political prejudice by the Government against the applicants.

Certainly I think that it is highly desirable, if we are going to operate a system of inducements, that it should be widely understood that the Government does not interfere with. does not attempt to and will never try to secure a reversal of the findings of the bodies concerned.

Deputy John A. Costello referred to the Commission on Higher Education. We have not yet got down to the final drafting of the terms of reference of that Commission but it is the accepted view of the Minister for Education and of the Government that the independence of the Universities should be preserved.

The Independent Deputies will realise that they have raised such a variety of questions that it is impossible to refer to them all. Other Deputies referred to specific matters which are primarily the responsibility of other Ministers and, although as Taoiseach, I have some general responsibility in regard to them, I do not propose to deal with them now.

In my introductory statement I tried to give a factual review of the state of the economy of the country. It is all very well for Deputies opposite to say that there was a time when agricultural employment was higher than it is now. The point which is important is that from the beginning of 1956 until the end of 1957, and because of developments in 1956, the economy of this country was going downhill and going down rapidly. We did not succeed in arresting that trend until the end of 1957. In 1958 we succeeded in having the programme for economic expansion published. The legislation to put that programme into operation was passed in the first half of 1959 and from that time on the economy of the country has been moving upward at an accelerating pace. It is not where we were at any particular time that matters. It is where we are going now and we are going up. That is all that matters.

When the false courage has died down perhaps the Taoiseach will explain how he makes out that the trend was downward from 1956 to 1957 when gross national production was up by £12,000,000 in 1957 over 1956.

The Deputy is looking at the wrong figures.

That is all right, I will have the Appropriation Bill on which to deal with you.

Question: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration," put.
The Committee divided. Tá 51; Níl 72.

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Burke, James.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Tom.
  • Carew, John.
  • Carroll, James.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan D.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hogan, Bridget.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, Denis.
  • Lindsay, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Russell, George E.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sherwin, Frank.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breannan, Joseph.
  • Breannan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Closhessy, Patrick.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Donegan, Batt.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Briain, Donnechadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Eagan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Johnston, Henry M.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lemass, Neol T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Loughman, Frank.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Moloney, Daniel J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheldon, William A.W.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies O'Sullivan and Crotty; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Loughman.
Question declared lost.
Vote put and agreed to.
Barr
Roinn