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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Oct 1960

Vol. 184 No. 1

National Loan, 1960. - Solicitors (Amendment) Bill, 1960—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The Bill is in substitution for the Solicitors (Amendment) Bill, 1958, which was withdrawn in February last. As Deputies will note, the present Bill is a much more comprehensive one. Like the 1958 Bill, it proposes to provide for striking the name of a solicitor off the roll or suspending him from practice or censuring him in any case where he has been found guilty of misconduct. In addition, the present Bill proposes to place the Compensation Fund, which was established under the Solicitors Act, 1954, on a sound financial footing. Finally, it contains certain important miscellaneous provisions in regard to solicitors. I shall now deal in some detail with the proposals in the Bill.

Part II of the Bill is designed to cover the situation which has arisen consequent on the Supreme Court decision in March, 1958, that the powers purported to have been conferred on the Disciplinary Committee of the Law Society by Part III of the 1954 Act are unconstitutional. That Act attempted, unsuccessfully as it transpired, to vest in the Law Society disciplinary control over solicitors and was designed to grant the profession self-government. In so far as this self-government meant that the profession could expel those members whose conduct, or rather misconduct, made them no longer fit to practise as solicitors, it has been held to be unconstitutional because it involved the exercise of a judicial power which the Constitution reserves to the judiciary. The 1958 Bill and Part II of the present Bill were prepared in an effort to meet this situation and to do something about the consequent unsatisfactory state of affairs.

Before I go on to speak of the provisions contained in Part II, I think I ought to stress that misconduct by solicitors is confined to a very small number in a profession that has maintained over the years the very highest standards of service to the public and of honesty in the conduct of its members. Unfortunately, the activities of a few can do untold harm to the reputation of a profession as a whole, and this is true not alone of the solicitors' profession but of other professions as well.

One of the main problems that arises in connection with solicitors is that, in the nature of their calling, they have from time to time in their hands moneys belonging to their clients. It is this fact that leads to trouble and causes innocent people to lose their money either through deliberate dishonesty or through dishonesty which begins as carelessness or negligence and ends as fraud. Circumstances very often become such that a solicitor who originally had no dishonest purpose lands himself in a mire out of which he cannot extricate himself. I shall return to this aspect later.

I mention the dishonesty case at this juncture in order to make the point that it is the exception in an upright and high-minded profession. Indeed, the amount of money lost to clients through the misconduct of the few is a very small percentage of the total passing through the hands of solicitors. Nevertheless, the public and the profession must be protected against the dishonest solicitor.

Section 6 of the Bill provides for the Disciplinary Committee of the Law Society. This Committee will replace that set up under the 1954 Act. That Act purported to give to the Disciplinary Committee power to strike off the roll or suspend from practice, with a right of appeal to the Chief Justice. The Supreme Court, in the decision to which I have referred earlier, held that this right of appeal was not sufficient to bring a procedure, otherwise unconstitutional, within the Constitution.

Section 7 will confer on the new Committee powers of inquiry into the conduct of a solicitor on the ground of alleged misconduct. An application for an inquiry may be made by any person or by the Law Society. If the Disciplinary Committee are satisfied that there is a prima facie case for an inquiry, they must proceed to hold one and embody their finding in the form of a report to the High Court. If misconduct is found, the Society are to bring the report before the High Court. The report of the Committee will contain their opinion as to the fitness or otherwise of the solicitor to be a member of the profession.

Certain objection was taken to this proposal when the 1958 Bill was being debated in the House and the matter was reconsidered in consultation with the Society. We are satisfied that the Committee should be allowed to express an opinion in any report they make. The members of the Committee will be outstanding members of the profession willing to undertake what is an onerous and responsible duty. Allowing leading members of a profession to say whether or not they think a person is fit to be a member of that profession is nothing new.

For instance, under Section 29 (4) of the Medical Practitioners Act, 1927, it was provided that, on the hearing of an appeal to the High Court by a person whose name is erased from the Medical Register for infamous conduct in a professional respect, the Court (I am quoting from the subsection) "may, if it thinks proper so to do, admit and have regard to evidence of persons of standing in the medical profession as to the nature of conduct which is infamous in a professional respect." There is a similar provision in regard to veterinary surgeons in Section 39 (3) of the Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1931. Under the present Bill, there is no obligation on the High Court to accept the opinion of the Disciplinary Committee.

The proceedings before the High Court are dealt with in Section 8. The Court, having considered the report of the Disciplinary Committee, may strike the name of the solicitor off the roll, suspend him from practice, censure him or censure him and require him to pay a money penalty. The High Court may also direct the solicitor to make restitution or may freeze his bank account. On special grounds, the Court may send the case back to the Disciplinary Committee to take further evidence for submission to it and to make a supplementary report.

Section 9 provides for the removal at his own request of the name of a solicitor from the roll and Section 10 for the restoration of the name of a solicitor to the roll. The Disciplinary Committee may, if they think fit, remove a solicitor's name from the roll at his own request. Otherwise, the matter must be referred to the High Court. Restoration to the roll will be exclusively a matter for the High Court.

Section 11 will cover cases where the former Disciplinary Committee have purported to strike the name of a solicitor off the roll under the unconstitutional provisions of the 1954 Act. In these cases the Society may apply by notice of motion to the High Court to have the solicitors concerned properly struck off and the section provides for the procedure to be followed.

Under Section 12 the orders of the High Court are to be final and not appealable, but an appeal will lie to the Supreme Court on a specified question of law. We have considered this matter carefully in consultation with the Law Society and we are satisfied that the provision is a fair and reasonable one. The High Court will be deciding on matters of fact in most cases, but if a question of law is involved the rights of the solicitor are being adequately protected by allowing an appeal to the Supreme Court.

The disciplinary jurisdiction vested in the High Court will, by reason of Section 13, be exercised by the President of the High Court or by an ordinary judge of the High Court to be nominated by the President. In line with this policy is the proposal in Section 25 to transfer from the Chief Justice to the President of the High Court certain more or less administrative functions now performed by the Chief Justice under the 1954 Act.

Section 14 of the Bill will clothe with absolute privilege disciplinary proceedings under the 1954 Act and under the proposed Act. The section will give statutory form to what is the existing law as interpreted by judicial decision.

The remaining sections in Part II of the Bill do not call for any detailed comment from me on this Stage. They are consequential and re-enact, with appropriate amendments, certain sections of the 1954 Act that are being repealed.

Part III of the Bill will set out in a more convenient way the provisions of the 1954 Act concerning the power of the Law Society to deal with the documents of certain solicitors and also the provisions concerning the control of banking accounts of solicitors. In addition, it is proposed in Sections 21 and 22 to make, as the draftsmen say, further and better provision for the Compensation Fund. This Fund, which will be continued in existence, was set up under the 1954 Act to compensate clients who suffer losses due to the dishonesty of solicitors. As respects losses occurring in the first five years, the making of grants and the amounts thereof were in the absolute discretion of the Society. In respect of losses occurring after the 6th of January last, compensation must in general be in full. The annual contribution payable at present by each solicitor is five pounds, but solicitors in their first three years of practice pay half that amount. For the 1961 practice year or any practice year thereafter, the contribution may be increased from five pounds up to a maximum of ten pounds.

The idea in 1954 was that after five years the Fund would be able to compensate clients in full and that provision for an additional contribution of up to five pounds would be sufficient to keep the Fund solvent. This hope has not been fulfilled and the Fund is now unable to meet its liabilities. The losses have been much higher than was anticipated and no payments have been made to claimants for some time. I have had a number of discussions with representatives of the Council of the Society on this matter; and the scheme as proposed in Sections 21 and 22 was finally agreed on between us and subsequently approved by the Government. The contribution is being raised to twenty pounds and will remain at that figure until a reserve of £25,000 has been built up to meet exceptional claims. Thereafter, the contribution will be fixed by the Society at an amount sufficient to maintain the reserve at £25,000 and at the same time to satisfy claims as they arise.

The existing liabilities of the Fund under the 1954 Act will be paid off as soon as possible. Experience since 1954 leads us to expect that the necessary reserve will have been built up in a short period of time. Then it should be possible to reduce the contribution. We realise, of course, that the proposed contribution is double what the Society would have had to impose at the end of this year. It is, however, less than eight shillings a week, which is small when compared with a solicitor's other expenses in running his office and also when the fall in the value of money since before the war is taken into account.

I may say that other schemes for compensating clients have been examined, but they were discarded in favour of what is in fact a compulsory insurance scheme with an adequate annual contribution. Members of the public who are defrauded by those solicitors who form a minority of the profession are very often helpless victims and must in the opinion of the Government be adequately protected. It is true that this in effect means that the honest solicitors are being compelled to underwrite their dishonest colleagues. However, we are satisfied that no other method will work satisfactorily. After all, the careful motorist must underwrite the negligent motorist. The scheme of the 1954 Act was a good scheme except for the fact that the contribution was not sufficiently high to meet the liabilities which arose. This problem will, we trust, be solved under the present Bill.

Part IV of the Bill contains the miscellaneous provisions. I should like to discuss three of the sections concerned because they propose important changes in the law. These are Sections 26, 31 and 32.

Section 26 proposes to add two new paragraphs to Section 49 (1) of the 1954 Act. That section provides for the refusal of a practising certificate in certain specified cases listed in subsection (1). It is proposed to add the case of a solicitor who has failed to comply with an order of the High Court and also the case of a solicitor who has failed to comply with the solicitors' accounts regulations or with regulations as respects professional practice, conduct and discipline. This proposal is no more than reasonable. If a solicitor does not conform with the regulations dealing with accounts or with the other regulations I have mentioned, he should not be entitled automatically to the issue of a practising certificate.

Where, under section 49 of the 1954 Act, the Society direct the registrar to refuse to issue a practising certificate, the certificate must nevertheless be issued if the applicant satisfies the Society that he has appealed to the Chief Justice. The President of the High Court is being substituted for the Chief Justice in Section 25 of the Bill.

I should point out that, while it is proposed to add two paragraphs to Section 49 (1) of the 1954 Act, two existing paragraphs are listed for repeal in the Schedule to the Bill. These are paragraphs (b) and (c). Paragraph (b) is concerned with the case of a solicitor who has been suspended from practice, the period of the suspension having expired. Paragraph (c) specifies the case of a solicitor whose name has been struck off the roll and then restored. In both these cases the Society may direct the refusal of a practising certificate.

Whatever justification there may have been for paragraphs (b) and (c) under the scheme of the 1954 Act, which purported to allow the Disciplinary Committee to suspend from practice and to strike off and restore to the roll, there is, in our view, no justification now. Once the period of suspension imposed on a solicitor by the High Court has expired or once the High Court has restored to the roll the name of a solicitor which has been struck off, the solicitor concerned has served his punishment and should not be liable to further punishment.

I now come to what we regard as a vital section in the Bill. Section 31 makes detailed provision for the production each year by every solicitor (to whom the solicitors' accounts regulations apply) of an accountant's certificate stating that the solicitor is keeping the accounts regulations. The regulations, which apply to every solicitor practising on his own or in partnership and receiving clients' moneys, oblige the solicitor to keep a separate client bank account or accounts. Failure to deliver the annual accountant's certificate will be misconduct for the purpose of the disciplinary provisions contained in Part II of the Bill and, moreover, the registrar is being empowered to withhold the issue of a practising certificate until the solicitor delivers the accountant's certificate.

Section 66 of the 1954 Act, which made accounts regulations mandatory, provides that the regulations shall make provision for, inter alia, enforcing compliance with them and ascertaining whether they have been complied with. Under the Solicitors Accounts Regulations, 1955, the Council of the Law Society may require a solicitor at any time to have his books, bank statements and other appropriate documents produced for examination by an accountant approved or appointed by the council.

The powers of the council would not normally be exercised until a complaint in regard to the solicitor is made or the council become aware themselves of some suspected irregularity. By that time, the solicitor will in many cases have already landed himself in trouble. The object of section 31 of the Bill is to keep him out of trouble. The annual accountant's certificate will protect the public and it will also protect the solicitor himself. Furthermore, it will help to protect the compensation fund so that the profession in general will have a safeguard against those members likely to impose on the fund substantial liability for their dishonesty. In this respect, the section is a corollary to a fund contributions to which are obligatory for all solicitors though the vast majority of them are honest and careful in the handling of clients' moneys.

Accounts regulations are of little practical value if they are not strictly enforced and the only way to see that they are enforced is by a regular examination. A solicitor must be both a professional adviser and a business man. As a business man he should, if he is prudent, keep proper books and have them regularly examined and audited. All this goes without saying. The council have stressed to us that if appropriate steps are taken before great damage is done, the public and the practitioner will be protected from worse harm. Admittedly, the accountant's certificate will not be an absolute protection against a solicitor who is deliberately dishonest, but it should save from himself that solicitor who, through carelessness or negligence not amounting, in the beginning at least, to fraudulent intent, would otherwise gradually and inevitably get himself deeper and deeper into trouble.

The person who meddles with other people's funds to get himself out of what he fondly imagines is a temporary difficulty is suffering from the delusion that so often leads to disaster. In the interests of such a person and also in the public interest, any system of control requires the element of prevention at an early stage as well as the element of ultimate punishment. As a philosopher once put it in another context, you do not allow a palpable madman to throw himself over a precipice, you restrain him, you who are wise.

The need for an annual accountant's certificate has been demonstrated in England and Scotland. In England, the obligation was imposed in an enactment of 1941 and rules were made to give effect to that enactment in 1946. A corresponding enactment for Scotland was passed in 1958. In the Six Counties, proposals for an annual certificate are contained in a Private Member's Bill sponsored by the Northern Law Society. Deputies will notice that Section 31 of our Bill will, by reason of Section 2, come into operation on a day to be fixed by order of the Minister for Justice made on the request of the Society, which means the Council of the Society. The Government have agreed that the section should not be brought into operation immediately so as to allow time for the making of the necessary regulations and to acclimatise the profession to the fact that an annual accountant's certificate will eventually be required from every solicitor.

I desire to make it perfectly clear that it is not the intention to have the section enacted and then to forget about the matter. This section is regarded by the Government as one of prime importance which must be brought into operation in a reasonable time. If it is not, the question of fresh legislation will need to be considered. We realise only too well that it is not possible to make particular solicitors, or anybody else for that matter, honest by Act of the Oireachtas, but we feel that we can do something to prevent people from being dishonest and to avoid a line of conduct which must eventually lead to dishonesty.

I might mention that in England one of the rules made in 1946 provides that the accountant shall make a comparison, as at not fewer than two dates selected by him at random, between the liabilities of the solicitor to his clients and the balances standing to the credit of the client account. This is, of course, a very valuable rule and was obviously intended to see to it that a solicitor is not allowed to evade his obligations simply by having his house in order at the time the accountant makes the examination. The idea is that the solicitor keep his house in order throughout the year.

I have dealt at some length with Section 31 because, as I have indicated, we regard it as a very important section. I may say that it has received the most careful consideration in consultation with the Council of the Law Society. To some it may appear as if the proposal means unnecessary control in the conduct of their profession by solicitors. This is far from being the case. As Deputies are aware, there has, and naturally so, been an amount of public disquiet at certain cases involving dishonesty by solicitors that have from time to time come to light. The Council of the Society are very concerned about these cases and are anxious to do all they can in the matter.

Apart from the duty to protect the public there is also the public's duty to protect itself. People who have to consult solicitors should be careful to avoid the disreputable practitioner. If a client is negligent and loses his money, the compensation fund will not automatically indemnify him as payments from the fund in cases of negligence are in the discretion of the Society and will continue to be so. After all, reputable solicitors are in the majority, and a client who exposes himself to fraud with his eyes open has often only himself to blame. This, of course, is not to say that innocent clients do not lose their money through the misconduct of solicitors. They do Still, loss might, in many instances, be avoided if more thought were given to the reputation of the solicitor to whom one entrusts one's affairs.

The last section of the Bill that calls for discussion is Section 32. This is a rather technical section which proposes to apply the ordinary bankruptcy rule in respect of the administration of the client account or accounts of a bankrupt solicitor or of a solicitor who dies insolvent. The funds in a client account are treated as trust funds and, as such, do not form part of the estate for the purposes of bankruptcy or insolvency on death. They are applied in accordance with what is known as the rule in Clayton's Case, which lays down that debts must be discharged in order of date or, as is said, ‘first in, first out'. The Council of the Law Society have suggested that this rule should be excluded and that the law should be amended in the same way as has been done in the Scottish Solicitors Act, 1958. Having examined the matter thoroughly, we were satisfied that the wishes of the Council should be met. Accordingly, Section 32 of the Bill proposes that the sum or sums at the credit of the client account or accounts of a bankrupt or deceased insolvent solicitor shall be divisible proportionately amongst the clients of the solicitor according to the respective sums received by the solicitor on their account and remaining due by him to them.

I recommend the Bill to the House. In doing so I should like, on behalf of the Minister for Justice and on behalf of the Government, to express thanks to the Council of the Incorporated Law Society for their assistance and co-operation. I have personally been very closely associated with the preparation of this Bill and I had lengthy consultations with the representatives of the Council at various times. It would be remiss of me if I did not pay a special tribute to the President of the Society and to the other representatives of the Council with whom I examined the proposals for this Bill. The President and his colleagues were generous and unstinting in devoting their time and energy to the Bill. I was particularly impressed by their anxiety to have a Bill which would be of enduring benefit, not alone to the public but to the profession that they so honourably represent. I trust that this Bill, which has been agreed with the Council of the Incorporated Law Society will achieve its objects.

On the understanding expressed by the Parliamentary Secretary that this Bill represents substantial agreement between the Government and the Incorporated Law Society, we are prepared to support the Bill subject to one or two matters which in our judgment require closer examination. We are all familiar with the difficulties that arose in connection with previous legislation relating to this matter, and so we look at Section 12 of this Bill with some anxiety.

Section 12 of this Bill provides:

(1) Subject to subsection (2) of this section, an order of the High Court under section 8 of this Act, under that section as applied by section 11 of this Act or under section 9 or section 10 of this Act shall be final and not appealable.

(2) By leave of the High Court, an appeal, by the Society or the solicitor concerned, from an order of the High Court under sections 8 of this Act, under that section as applied by section 11 of this Act or under section 9 or section 10 of this Act shall lie to the Supreme Court on a specified question of law.

We are not satisfied that the provisions of that section will meet the requirements of the Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court and we feel it is a question which ought to be resolved before the legislation is finally passed into law by the President's signature, preferably by reference by the President of the Bill, as it then will be, to the Supreme Court for determination as to whether it conforms to the requirements of the Constitution.

There is an interesting coincidence today in Dáil Éireann. We have just had a Veterinary Surgeons Bill before us and there is a similar provision in that Bill. However, on that Bill the Minister for Agriculture assures me that the Attorney General has assured him that there is no necessity to put into the Veterinary Surgeons Bill an appeal to the Supreme Court on a point of law. Ten minutes after he gives me that assurance the Parliamentary Secretary marches into the Dáil and says he has been advised that subsection (2) of Section 12 takes the harm out of Section 12 which would otherwise be there. I suppose the correct description of that would be an ambivalent mind but it seems to me we might charge the law officers of the Government with having an ambidextrous mind for they can advise one Minister that subsection (2) of this Bill is necessary and another Minister that subsection (2) of this Bill is not necessary in an exactly similar provision relating to the veterinary profession.

I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that a sufficient liaison between himself and the Minister for Agriculture might be established to find out which of the law officers advised whom and what, because they cannot advise in that diametrically opposed sense unless there is some very serious flaw in their mental processes.

Our view is that where you have a written Constitution and are introducing disciplinary measures of this kind it is very much preferable to have these matters resolved by a preliminary detached proceeding rather than to have any possible flaw in the legislation brought to light by a litigant against whom the disciplinary regulations are set in motion and who appeals to the Supreme Court to have them set aside, thus thrusting upon the Oireachtas the necessity of going over its own legislation and trying to legislate to meet the Constitutional problem which has arisen as a result of an attempt to enforce an Act passed by the Oireachtas.

In the course of his statement the Parliamentary Secretary says on Page 4:—

There is a similar provision in regard to veterinary surgeons in Sections 39 (3) of the Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1931.

He is apparently unaware of the fact that we have before us a Bill at the present time designed to repeal subsection (3) of Section 39 of the Veterinary Surgeons Act. We are actually in the process of repealing that subsection. I refer the Minister to the Second Schedule of the Veterinary Surgeons Bill under the heading "Extent of Repeal":

In subsection (1) of section 39, the words "or on account of professional misconduct; or" and paragraph (d); subsection (3) of section 39.

There is a very serious lack of liaison if the precedent of subsection (3) of Section 39 of the Veterinary Surgeons Bill is quoted to us as a precedent in this Bill when, five minutes ago, we passed the Second Stage of a Bill for the purpose of repealing the very subsection which is offered as a valuable precedent.

I invite the Parliamentary Secretary to discuss with the Minister for Agriculture these two matters I have raised, because there ought to be available to him and to the Minister for Agriculture advice from the same law officer. If the subsection (2) of Section 12 is required in this Solicitors Bill it certainly should be required in the Veterinary Surgeons Bill. If it is not wanted in the Veterinary Surgeons Bill it is unnecessary here.

Lastly I wish to say that the Bill is acceptable to us in the light of the Parliamentary Secretary's assurance that it is an agreed measure with the Incorporated Law Society and subject to the reservation that we are not satisfied that Section 12 meets the demands of the Constitution, and that in our opinion that matter would be best disposed of by getting the President to refer it to the Supreme Court for decision before it is finally enacted into law. We fully appreciate the burden that the solicitors' profession are undertaking in connection with the Compensation Fund and we express our admiration and appreciation of the profession's undertaking that not inconsiderable burden. It is a very welcome development and a great protection to simple people up and down the country who, in the past, may have been called upon to bear very heavy losses as a result of the default of those whom I entirely agree with the Parliamentary Secretary in describing as the rare exception to the general high standard of the profession. With those observations we commend the Bill to the House but we should be glad to have the Parliamentary Secretary's reassurance on the specific points to which I have directed his attention.

Unlike Deputy Dillon I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will keep the Minister for Agriculture out of a Bill dealing with the solicitors' profession. He might reconcile his differences with him but do not let him interfere with the Solicitors' Bill. I think it is right, and I was glad to hear the Parliamentary Secretary refer to it in generous terms when introducing the Bill, that people should recognise that this Bill —and indeed the previous legislation passed by this House—not only had the support, but to a great extent, was introduced at the behest, of the Incorporated Law Society, the body which controls or should control the solicitors' profession in this country, and when this or other Governments introduce a Bill of this sort it is not being done, in a manner, by the Government, or received in a manner by the profession, as though something were being done to cow the profession in any way. As I say, it is done with the support and at the behest of the Incorporated Law Society and it is right that the public should know that.

The Leader of Fine Gael has indicated our support for this proposal, with a question mark regarding Section 12 of the Bill. My own view with regard to Section 12 is that the Bill should allow a solicitor to appeal to the Supreme Court if an order is made by the High Court against him. Neither I nor anyone else in the legal profession, or on these Benches, is going to make a plea for a defaulting or a dishonest solicitor, but it is necessary to recognise that a solicitor who is struck off the solicitors' roll is losing his entire livelihood. If he feels that he is being unjustly treated, or that his case has not been fully appreciated by the High Court, it is ordinary justice, which should apply to a solicitor as well as to anyone else, that he should have a chance of appealing that decision to the Supreme Court. I would urge on the Parliamentary Secretary to have another look at that section in conjunction with the Incorporated Law Society. It is not going to do any harm, it is not going to weaken the control of the Law Society, it is not going to weaken the control of the High Court in any way to allow a provision for an appeal to the Supreme Court on the facts, quite apart from any specific question of law which may be settled by the High Court.

There are some other small points which I raise simply with a view to getting clarification from the Parliamentary Secretary. In Section 7, subsection (3) (b)—this is where an inquiry has been made by the Disciplinary Committee established under the Act—it says:—

on completion of the inquiry, the Disciplinary Committee shall embody their findings in a report to the High Court...

I should have assumed from that, and from that simple wording, that that report would go to the High Court, but if you read on to subsection (c) it seems that it is only in a case of a finding of misconduct that it is mandatory on the Society to bring the report to the High Court.

I am not objecting to this provision but it does seem to me that there is a somewhat—I do not want to be offensive in any way—sloppy wording in subsection (b). If it is not intended that the report should go automatically to the High Court it should not be worded as it is—"on completion of the inquiry, the Disciplinary Committee shall embody their findings in a report to the High Court." It should be stated "in a report which may, in accordance with subsection (c), be submitted to the High Court." I would just ask the Parliamentary Secretary to look into that, purely from the point of view of clarification.

Again, Section 9 of the Bill—there may be very good reason for this but I do not understand it—deals with the removal at his own request of the name of a solicitor from the roll. I cannot for the life of me understand why a request from a solicitor who wishes to give up practice, who wishes to retire, should be a matter for an inquiry from the Disciplinary Committee. I should imagine that a solicitor who feels he has reached the age of retirement, or is going into some other business or profession and does not want to continue on the solicitors' roll, should be allowed to have his name removed by arrangement with the Society or the secretary of the Society rather than have to make an application to the Disciplinary Committee. That is not a very important matter but one into which I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to look.

There is a point I want to mention in connection with Section 19 which I regard as being somewhat more important. It deals with the power of the Society to deal with documents of certain solicitors. This envisages a case where the Society are of the opinion that a solicitor, or someone in his employment, has been dishonest and it authorises the Society in certain circumstances to nominate someone to take possession of the documents of that solicitor. The word "documents" is defined in the definition section of the Bill and I am not satisfied that it would include such things as moneys or securities which a solicitor may have in his possession, as distinct from keeping a bank account. It does seem to me that in certain circumstances, it would be necessary, if the Law Society were putting this machinery into operation against a solicitor, or someone in a solicitor's office, that they should have the power to take into their custody and control moneys and securities as well as other documents or papers. I do not know whether that omission was deliberate or not; it certainly does not seem to be covered by the powers which enabled the freezing of a solicitor's bank account.

I do not think there is anything more I want to say on this Bill. It is only right that I should welcome the manner in which it was introduced by the Parliamentary Secretary and the generous words in which he spoke of the Incorporated Law Society and the council of that body. I also think that the public should appreciate what Deputy Dillon said, that the solicitors' profession voluntarily— I should not say voluntarily—in pressing for this legislation or accepting this legislation, are accepting fairly considerable burdens, first, to set up the compensation fund and, secondly, with regard to the Solicitors Act regulations, because it does entail, one might say, every solicitor, big or small, even the person who has only started and is in his first year in practice, employing an accountant to put his accounts in proper order, and supplying an accountant's certificate. I feel, as Deputy Dillon said, that is something that should be known and appreciated by the public.

Mr. Ryan

I rise to question the validity of an argument used by the Parliamentary Secretary in which he endeavoured to draw a comparison between the compensation fund of the Law Society and the fact that the careful motorist must underwrite the negligent motorist. Of course, that is not a true or fair comparison: it would be a fair comparison if the compensation fund were being asked to underwrite negligence of solicitors, but it is not. Any prudent solicitor will insure himself against negligence but that is a cost which has to be borne by prudent solicitors, who are in most cases the honest ones, in addition to the penalty of £20 which this Bill seeks to impose upon the profession in respect of sins committed by a small minority of the profession at a time when the Law Society did not have the powers, or some of the powers, conferred on them by this Bill.

It is not because I think the solicitors' profession objects to the payment of the £20 for the purpose of compensating people but because of the principle involved in this levy that I wish to record my objection to Section 22 which, if it is passed, will probably become law about December of this year or January of next year. Within a few days of its becoming law, solicitors throughout the length and breadth of the country will get a notice stating that they will not be permitted to operate as solicitors next year, unless they fork out £20 in addition to the other annual levies imposed on them. That is the kind of thing that may put some solicitors into financial difficulties, particularly young solicitors, and they may start raiding clients' moneys in order to meet this atrocious penalty of £20.

What I think is particularly objectionable is that it is a form of retrospective legislation. You are compelling those who are for the time being solicitors to pay in respect of mistakes that occurred some years ago before the Law Society had the disciplinary powers conferred on them by this Bill and by the earlier Act. I think it is true to say that although the Law Society had certain powers under the 1954 Act, they hesitated to employ these powers in recent years, particularly since the decision of the Supreme Court in the case of Farrell and O'Gorman. The Law Society was afraid to move because they felt that any action of theirs might involve them in further trouble and litigation. We now have the sorry situation that the solicitors' profession in general is asked to pay this £20 because this House six years ago passed a Bill which turned out to be unconstitutional and which the Law Society were afraid to put into operation because of that.

We ought to approach this in the same manner as the 1954 Act was approached. We should regret that any people should have suffered because of the dishonesty of a small minority of solicitors in the past and we ought to start off afresh and see to it that any compensation fund is built up gradually over the next few years, rather than slap this £20 on the profession as a penalty or fine before a solicitor can begin, or continue, to operate as a solicitor for the next 12 months. It is true, as the Parliamentary Secretary says, it is a relatively small figure compared with the other outlay of a solicitor's office, but the tragedy is that solicitors have to pay such an atrociously high amount of outlay, much of which is due to the deliberate and indefinite delay on the part of the Department of Justice and other legal institutions in the city in carrying out some of the necessary modernisation.

The average solicitor spends from £200 to £500 a year in using business methods which were as modern as they could be in the 17th or 18th century, but which are not the kind of thing which should operate in the 20th century. If the Department of Justice and the court officials were to modernise the whole legal system as it operates in Dublin, I feel sure that the profession would be well able to afford not only £20 but a couple of hundred pounds per head per annum.

Much of the difficulty of the legal profession at present arises from the fact that their overheads are extraordinarily high and that they have to bear many of them out of their own pockets. Unfortunately, many of them make use of clients' funds for the purpose of paying these unnecessary overheads. The modernisation I have mentioned would be a practical way of avoiding some of the considerable difficulties that face the legal profession. I am glad, however, that the Parliamentary Secretary did emphasise that it is a very small minority of solicitors who have been guilty of misconduct in the past and that is the very reason why an honourable profession and one that is very hard-pressed, despite the music-hall idea to the contrary, should not be asked to bear this cost of £20 right away in respect of dishonesty that has already occurred.

I welcome the provision in this Bill which will ensure that an accountant's certificate is furnished to the Law Society to establish that particular solicitors comply with the Solicitors Act regulations, but, from my reading of the Bill, there is nothing in it to protect the public against the dishonest solicitor and the dishonest accountant working in collusion, except perhaps in the section which provides that the Law Society may specify the qualifications of the accountant.

There is no such thing as a dishonest accountant.

Only smart ones.

Mr. Ryan

Of course there are many dishonest accountants. Many accountants make their money by codding the income tax authorities. This attitude of mind which influences them in not disclosing to the tax people the full state of affairs in relation to their clients' income may influence them when it comes to furnishing certificates to the Law Society.

I should prefer to see machinery whereby the Law Society could send inspectors into solicitors' offices, without any prior notice, with authority to inspect the accounts in offices at any time. I appreciate that under the 1955 regulations, the Law Society may call upon a solicitor to produce his books, his bank statements and other financial records, to a particular accountant nominated by the Law Society. One of the weaknesses of that arrangement is that a solicitor, with the aid of a friendly accountant doing a little bit of overwork, can set his books in order before producing them to the accountant from the Law Society.

If the Law Society had the power of sending an accountant into a solicitor's office without notice to inspect the books and accounts before any emendation could be done on them, a dishonest member of the solicitors' profession would be very slow to risk running his accounts improperly. As things stand at present, he can run that risk without any serious consequences. I do not think the mere furnishing of a certificate by the accountant will protect the public against that kind of thing in future.

As the purpose of this Bill is to prevent dishonesty, we should try to be as blunt as we possibly can. If we provide a system of inspection without notice, we shall be taking a step in the right direction. As a member of the profession, I appreciate that it would be inconvenient to have accountants coming in and inspecting the books without notice, but I think an honest solicitor who has nothing to hide will not hesitate to support such a proposal. It might, in the long run, be far better than the rather milk and water proposal we have in the Bill as it stands.

I appreciate that it might not be convenient to introduce it in this Bill, but I think dishonesty on the part of a solicitor in relation to a client's funds should be a statutory offence, carrying a minimum mandatory penalty of seven years' penal servitude without any option of a fine. If that were on the statute books, the very small minority who are inclined to disregard their obligations to their clients might think twice before doing so.

These are some of the things which could be done and which, if tightened up, would prevent no small amount of dishonesty in future. That is necessary, first of all, because the public should not be allowed to suffer on account of the dishonesty of any man, and secondly, in order that members of the profession should not be burdened with this undue levy of £20 a year to compensate for the dishonesty of others.

In relation to the Parliamentary Secretary's invalid comparison to which I referred at the outset, I should like to point out that a more apt comparison would be if society were asked to compensate people who suffer at the hands of thieves and robbers. Society are not asked to compensate people who suffer at the hands of thieves or robbers. If that were the situation, it would then be right to compel honest solicitors to pay for dishonest solicitors. That situation does not, of course, exist. The malicious injury code which allows compensation to be paid by society to people who have suffered malicious injury may, of course, be quoted, but that affects only a very small proportion, and anyway that code does not compensate for theft. That might be a valid comparison, but the comparison made by the Parliamentary Secretary in relation to the negligent motorist being indemnified by society is not true in relation to the compensation fund.

I cannot allow one statement made by Deputy Ryan to go uncontradicted, and I do not think he really meant it. He said that many accountants are dishonest. I think in relation to accountancy, certainly amongst those people who are properly entitled to call themselves accountants, there is a very small percentage who do not adhere to the high standards the remainder practice. There is, of course, unfortunately, a great number of people who call themselves accountants but who belong to no organised body and are not, in fact, accountants at all. The Parliamentary Secretary would be well advised to consult with recognised bodies like the Institute of Chartered Accountants, the Society of Public Accountants, and so forth, whether it would be possible to have legislation which would ensure that a person would not have the right to call himself an auditor or accountant without adhering to some standard such as that to which solicitors, doctors, veterinary surgeons, and so forth, have to adhere.

In relation to this Bill, all of us realise that the £20 per annum that will have to be paid now by every solicitor will be a substantial burden and, for some one with an office where there are a great number of solicitors, the amount involved will be pretty substantial. Personally, I feel without question it is an obligation we must undertake if the reputation of the solicitors' profession is to be kept in a proper manner before the public. I suggest that once the Incorporated Law Society and the solicitors' profession as a whole have undertaken this liability, there is an obligation on the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that the other administrative costs are brought down.

It would be unreal, unrealistic and unfair for the Department of Justice to insist that the Incorporated Law Society would, as of right—except in the case where a man contributed to his own misfortune—have to compensate in full as a statutory obligation, unless at the same time Departments of State—I do not speak of the Department of Justice alone—did everything they possibly could to obviate this as being an increase in solicitors' overheads, if the overhead could be cut otherwise.

The Parliamentary Secretary is, of course, aware of the memorandum that has been sent to him by the Incorporated Law Society indicating the various ways in which administrative costs could be reduced by Government action. He has agreed—and I pay tribute to his ready agreement—to try to examine the suggested scheme with a view to ensuring that such short cuts in administrative costs as are possible will be put through as soon as may be. I hope that not merely will he examine them from a Department of Justice angle, but that he will urge on his colleagues in the Government that they should do their part in the same way. The Minister for Finance, in particular, and the Revenue Commissioners, should try to ensure that they will modernise, and assist in the modernisation of, the practice in relation to the stamping of documents, whether for ordinary stamp duty or fee stamps for court proceedings.

Unless that is done, we must face the situation that administrative costs will rise, and rise substantially. If they rise substantially, the cost to the public will be increased and the margin of profit for the solicitor will be decreased, with unpleasant consequences. I think the Parliamentary Secretary will be the first to admit that the Incorporated Law Society have met him in this matter of compensation in both an ample and a willing fashion. I suggest to him that there is an obligation on him, and on his colleagues in the Government, to meet the Law Society then in the other respects I have mentioned.

At some stage there will be an obligation on solicitors to produce accounting certificates. That is a further step that must be accepted, though I realise fully it will not be one that will be very popular with some solicitors. They will not like the idea of anybody looking at their accounts. But it has to come and, until such time as it does come, there should be something more than a mere signed statement that the solicitor is obeying the regulations. I think there should be a most formal statutory declaration. Whether a statutory declaration before a Peace Commissioner is adequate, I have my doubts.

I think that in certain cases some of the older solicitors did not exactly realise what the position was in relation to the changes in solicitors' accounts and the accounts regulations. They were inclined to sign a certificate that they were obeying the regulations, believing that what they were doing was obeying the regulations as they were long ago and not realising at all that accounts regulations in modern times are something quite different. Until such time, therefore, as the accountant's certificate comes in there must be the most formal possible declaration by a solicitor that he is obeying the accounts regulations.

Let no one fail to realise that the solicitor's accounts regulations involve considerable additional administrative expense for the solicitor's office. There is the position, for example, in which one pays out £100 or £200 stamp duty for a client in one week and one does not get back that stamp duty from the client until the next week; that means double the work administratively in one's office. I have to pay the money out today out of my own office account; I get in next week from my client a sum which includes that stamp duty and also includes money that belongs to the client. That means that I have to lodge the money to my client's account—must properly lodge it—and then draw off my client's account to recoup my office account the amount I paid out last week. That transaction can be multiplied. Even in the case of one client it can mean a great number of additional entries in and transfers from one account to another. The effect of all that must be to add to the administrative cost. I accept, without question, that it is an administrative cost we must, as a profession, undertake in order to ensure that our client's moneys are properly protected. But we must undertake it with our eyes open; it is an additional administrative cost and, being an additional administrative cost, it is something we must try to offset in another way.

In that regard, I come back again to the obligation on the Parliamentary Secretary to try at once to put into operation as many as possible of the recommendations for administrative efficiency which have been put before him by the Incorporated Law Society. If he waits until he can cope with all the administrative changes it is desirable to introduce in order to make the machine perfect, not merely will he not be there but he and I will both be gone to another reward. If he waits, it will take far too long. It is a matter in relation to which one can take certain things that are reasonably simple and can be done reasonably. The changed administration is one that must be tackled piecemeal. As it becomes possible, that should be done. At least there is that much deadweight cut out.

I should like at the outset to say that I welcome the attitude taken by the Opposition to this Bill. In dealing with the points raised, I think it is fitting that I should mention first the Leader of the Opposition, Deputy Dillon. He took me to task in relation to my reference to the Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1931. I merely used that Act as an argument to show that there was nothing new in the idea of professional men, giving their opinion to a court as to the fitness, or otherwise, of a colleague to be a member of the profession. I, of course, realise that we have before us at the moment a Veterinary Surgeons Bill. But the old Act is still there and, when I said the position was such and such, I was, in fact, quite right because, even though there is a Bill designed to amend the Act, the Act is still there. Purely as a debating point, my argument is correct. In any event, it was used by me merely to prove the point that there was nothing new in the principle. It had no other significance.

The Parliamentary Secretary must admit that, while he was accurate, his argument did not prove very much, because it merely proved that either his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, was wrong or the Parliamentary Secretary was right.

I do not think so.

Why is it being repealed?

I am not responsible for the Veterinary Surgeons Bill.

I daresay his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, is wrong.

I was referring to the criticism made by Deputy Costello of the 1958 Bill. I think Deputy McGilligan had the same criticism to offer. Deputy Costello intimated that what he was worried about was the idea of the Disciplinary Committee including in its report an opinion as to whether the particular solicitor was a fit person to be a member of the profession. In order to deal with the argument advanced then I mentioned that there was nothing new in that proposal. I pointed out what was already in existence with relation to doctors and veterinary surgeons.

I do not quarrel with the Parliamentary Secretary. I think he is right. I think his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, is wrong, and the Parliamentary Secretary ought to teach him a lesson.

I have no desire to do that at all. I am concerned only with my own Bill. At the moment, I am merely rebutting the criticism Deputy Dillon made.

On that point, while not wishing to discuss the Parliamentary Secretary's argument, does it not seem proper, in a matter of this sort, in which two professions are concerned with the same point that, whichever advises the Government on the legal attitude, should at least adopt an agreed line? It is misleading in the sense of dealing with one profession in one way and with another profession in another way on the same point.

I shall deal with that in a moment. When I come to the constitutional point, Deputy Dillon is, I think, on even weaker grounds than Deputy Cosgrave. This Bill proposes that the appeal to the Supreme Court should be only on a point of law. I should be the last person to attempt to argue the constitutionality of any provision but Section 12 seems to me to be constitutional.

We have been advised by a constitutional lawyer that that view is wrong.

Section 12?

Yes. We have been so advised. I should prefer Section 12 if it is constitutional. It would be utterly disastrous to this Bill if Section 12 were declared unconstitutional after being put into operation. It would upset the whole thing. We should have the 1954 situation all over again. We should be clear and certain before the solicitors' profession is asked to undertake this obligation. I prefer it if it is constitutional. Some of my colleagues do not. However, I want to be certain it is right.

I welcome the Deputy's approach. I have no misgivings. I should be glad if he would let us have the advice available to him.

I am giving the opinion of somebody else. I am not a constitutional lawyer.

Neither am I. The position seems quite clear in the light of Article 34 (4) (iii) of the Constitution which says:

The Supreme Court shall, with such exceptions and subject to such regulations as may be prescribed by law, have appellate jurisdiction from all decisions of the High Court, and shall also have appellate jurisdiction from such decisions of other courts as may be prescribed by law.

I do not quote that to get involved in a constitutional argument. The suggestion that myself and the Minister for Agriculture have been differently advised legally has no foundation. Admittedly we are doing different things with the different professions but there is no question of the legal advice being different.

Under the Veterinary Surgeons Bill, as the Minister for Agriculture explained, there is to be no appeal to the Supreme Court. In accordance with what I understand to be the law there is an appeal from the High Court to the Supreme Court in every case, except where otherwise prescribed by statute. I am dealing now with ordinary issues and not with constitutional issues on which there must be an appeal. A different procedure is being adopted in the Veterinary Surgeon's Bill from that being adopted in this Bill. There is no question of different advices.

But the statutory procedure you are adopting is different on the same point.

The Minister for Agriculture has proposed a procedure involving no appeal at all to the Supreme Court from a decision of the High Court. I am proposing that there will be an appeal, but only on a point of law. However, there is no difference that I know of in any legal advices we got.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary not agree that it is absolutely vital to the success of the scheme that it should be known for certain that Section 12 is constitutional?

This is our third attempt to achieve constitutionality.

And if it goes bang.

If it goes bang I do not know where we shall be. It is absolutely desirable that we should have a constitutional Act and we shall certainly try to achieve that.

Deputy M.J. O'Higgins, whose attitude I welcome, raised a point on Section 7. The first reference to the report to the High Court is concerned with the form of the report. Where there is no misconduct the Law Society will prepare a report but it does not have to go to the High Court. Only in the case of misconduct so found will the report go to the High Court. The form of working is not for me to decide. The form of wording used is that which was deemed appropriate by the draftsman.

It does not seem appropriate when it mentions a report to the High Court and does not mean that.

It refers to the form in which the report must be drawn up.

It must be drawn up in the form of a report to the High Court. Only in certain circumstances will it be brought to the High Court.

We considered the point with regard to a solicitor having his name removed from the roll. We have to visualise a situation where a solicitor, knowing he is heading for trouble, might like to get out of his obligations as a solicitor by having his name removed from the roll. Therefore, we think it better to have the provision as we have it.

My point is that it is treating the solicitors' profession generally in too suspicious a manner. If an application is made to the secretary and he feels there are reasonable grounds for suspicion, I would agree that there should be some provision that he should direct the enquiry to the disciplinary committee. However, in the case of a solicitor retiring and going into another business it seems suspicious that his application should initially be directed to the Disciplinary Committee.

I shall consider that. I do not want in any circumstances to convey an impression of being unduly suspicious of the profession. However, I hope I have explained why we have inserted the provision as it is in the Bill.

To allow the Society to take over money securities and assets of that nature would not, I think, be desirable. I do not imagine that the Law Society would want to undertake that responsibility.

I am afraid I must, as deferentially as I can, accuse Deputy Ryan of not reading the Bill very carefully. He argued against the £20 subscription, by alleging that a young solicitor starting off in practice would have to pay that sum. Further reference to the Bill will show him that we have made a concession to a young solicitor starting off in practice. He has to pay only £5 for the first three years.

Mr. Ryan

Three years is not much.

It is not correct to say that next year a young solicitor starting off will be faced with the burden of £20. As Deputy Sweetman pointed out, the amount of the annual contribution is a very important matter. The argument has been put forward by the Council of the Society that they are not going to commit, as they put it, an act of professional bankruptcy. The fund has been set up. It is agreed there should be a fund. If there is to be a fund the solicitors' profession are determined it should be solvent and sufficient to meet its liabilities. At the moment the fund is not capable of doing that.

It was obvious that as on and from January next in any event, solicitors would be paying £10 instead of the present £5. The fact is that £10 is inadequate. We must face up to this. The solicitors are, I know, prepared to face up to it and are agreeable to have a contribution that will allow the fund to meet all its obligations and build up the reserve that we have specified in the Bill. Then, when the reserve is built up, the annual subscription can be brought down to whatever figure is appropriate.

I make Deputy Ryan a present of the argument about insurance on motor cars and the analogy with the Compensation Fund. I think it is a perfectly good and valid comparison. If it offends Deputy Ryan, I withdraw it without hesitation. I do not think it affects the issue very much one way or the other. The point is that the profession are agreed to have a solvent Compensation Fund and whatever analogy is used to justify its existence does not really affect the basic idea.

I certainly disagree completely with Deputy Ryan on his proposal for inspectors and for a number of reasons. First of all, I think it would be pushing control of professional men too far to have this type of inspector that Deputy Ryan envisages going in at any time, no matter what the inconvenience, to a solicitor's office to inspect the solicitor's books. Apart from that, it is undesirable to treat professional men in that way. I think the inspectorial system he visualised would be much less effective than the annual accountant's certificate. Unless you have an enormous number of inspectors their visits will only be sporadic. When the accountant's certificate regulations are made, there will be a regular inspection. Every solicitor each year will have to produce an accountant's certificate. On all grounds, I suggest that the system which will ultimately be operated under the Bill's proposals is much more preferable than what the Deputy recommends.

Mr. Ryan

On a point of clarification, I was thinking of both systems operating at the one time. I appreciate the argument about inconvenience. I was not suggesting it in substitution for the certificate.

I did not realise that. Even still, I say it would not be a desirable thing to do. After all, we are dealing with an honourable and reputable profession. This is their own private business to a great extent. There should be a limit to the obligations and supervision which we impose upon them. I am sure that the profession generally would quite rightly resent a form of almost police supervision by inspectors.

I must say I am very impressed with Deputy Sweetman's contribution and I should like to indicate personally that I would be very glad to accept the obligations which he says I should accept. I realise that we are placing a burden on solicitors. It is a substantial one and if we could do anything to reduce solicitors' administration costs by a more efficient service in Government Departments, the courts or elsewhere, we should certainly do it. I must, however, sound a note of warning. It is certainly not possible to give a firm assurance in this regard but, in so far as anything can be done, I think that we in the Department of Justice will certainly be prepared to examine the situation and see what we can do to help. I can assure Deputy Sweetman that the memorandum which the Law Society have submitted to the Department will get the most careful examination.

The Deputy asked that something should be done in the interim between the passing of the Bill and the introduction of the accountant's certificate regulations. I can quite see that he has a point there and, indeed, I share his anxiety in respect of that period. However, I hope that the accountant's certificate regulations would be operative fairly soon. In the interim period it would be better to leave the matter to be dealt with as far as may be under the Accounts Regulations. The Council of the Law Society have certain powers at the moment and I personally am willing to leave the interim period to their good judgment. I know they are anxious to have accountants' certificate regulations as soon as possible; and they are also anxious about the situation generally as to clients' funds.

I am very much impressed and gratified to note the reception that Section 31 received in the House from the members of the House who are themselves solicitors. It augurs very well for the future administration of the proposed legislation and for the things we are trying to do that the members here who are solicitors should show such enthusiasm for the annual accountant's certificate.

I do not think there was any other point raised by any speaker that I need deal with at this stage. If there is anything further, I will certainly deal with it on the Committee Stage of the Bill. For the moment, I think I have more or less replied to all the points which members made. In conclusion, I should like to repeat my appreciation for the attitude of the Opposition and to express my gratitude for the helpful manner in which they received the Bill.

This day week. There will be some amendments of a drafting nature and we shall have them circulated as soon as we can.

Subject to my getting in touch with the Whips. We want to get the Bill through as quickly as possible also. If there is any hitch, I know that the Parliamentary Secretary will accommodate me.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 2nd November, 1960.
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