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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Nov 1960

Vol. 184 No. 7

Private Members' Business. - Purchase of Ground Rents—Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
"That, in the opinion of Dáil Éireann, the Government should without delay introduce proposals for legislation to enable owners of dwelling-houses and business premises in cities, towns and villages to purchase, on equitable terms, the ground rents to which such houses and premises are at present subject."—(Deputy Larkin.)

Mr. Ryan

When speaking on this matter on the last day, I emphasised that the Fine Gael Party had already announced it was part of their policy to introduce legislation to permit tenant occupiers to purchase out their ground rents. The fact that this motion is moved by the Labour Party indicates that that is the outlook of the Labour Party in regard to the problem of ground rent. It may be argued by the present holders of ground rents that to abolish ground rents would do them serious injury and deprive them of certain property rights which they have. The same can be said of any means by which people held private property in the past.

It is my contention that this matter of ground rents is being discussed in this country for the past 70 years. As far back as the year 1889, there was a committee on town holdings which considered this matter. Any people who have bought ground rents, certainly in our lifetime, have done so at their own peril. Any person who now or in future years buys ground rents is doing so in the full knowledge that two political Parties in this State are pledged to abolish this feudal property right of ground rents. They do so at their own peril. They have no right to expect that in another generation, ten years, twenty years or less, they can expect to get as compensation the price which they are paying on what is now a monopoly market.

It is a monopoly market because only those with large amounts of money can purchase ground rents at the highly competitive prices now offered. The ordinary individual paying ground rent has an extremely remote hope of ever purchasing that ground rent. It is almost invariably the practice that it is purchased by some person or other who has thousands of pounds or hundreds of thousands of pounds at his back. The number of cases in which an individual ground rent is sold are few and far between. If they are sold at all, more often than not they are sold to the occupier. It is because it is a monopoly market, a market reserved for those with vast sums of money, that anything up to 15 or 18 years purchase is paid for a ground rent. The tenants are unable to compete at that level. That is why this motion deserves support.

The intention behind it is that the tenant occupier who has purchased a substantial interest in the property should be allowed to get rid of this vexatious private tax which is imposed on him because some people think it more important to maintain a feudal aristocracy in the twentieth century than to give moral justice to the small man. I believe it is far more important to encourage people to purchase their own houses. It is far more important that people should get a sense of ownership over what they are paying for. That is what this motion endeavours to achieve.

In his remarks moving this motion, Deputy Larkin referred to the fact that a great number of our citizens purchased their houses under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts scheme which allows them to collect loans from local authorities or are buying by means of building societies or through an insurance company. People who own property on the outskirts of our cities and towns would not have made the colossal profits they made in ground rents or in the sale of land in recent years were it not for the fact that Oireachtas Éireann introduced many Acts which enabled people on limited means to purchase their houses.

These people acquired great wealth. They acquired a system of personal property for themselves because of the social legislation passed by the Parliament of Ireland. I think they have no right to expect that we would tolerate a situation in which socially desirable legislation is going to pass profits into the pockets of private people. That is what happened under our various Housing Acts and various schemes, public and private, which have been in operation for the past 30 or 40 years enabling people to purchase houses.

It is argued by the people who are in favour of maintaining this feudal system that it is nothing to get heated about; that the rents are very small in any event. In relation to the outgoings which any property owner has, a levy of £12 or £15 per annum, which is an average rent for newly-built houses, is small but I do not think that is an answer. It is a privately-imposed tax on what is substantially the property of another and on that account I think it unfair.

The usually imposed ground rent on houses built in the past five years for a plot of land 50 × 60 is about £15 per annum. Over a period of 999 years that would amount to approximately £15,000. To my mind it is farcical that any person by an accident of history should have, because of social legislation, that profit put into his lap. I cannot see it is unfair or unethical on the part of those opposed to ground rents to say that is a gross and exorbitant profit and one that should not be continued.

It is also argued that the cost of acquiring ground rents is prohibitive and that people would not acquire them. I do not think that is so. The very few houses available at the present moment without a ground rent have imposed on them an additional £150 to £200 over and above the actual cost of the building. This is supposed to be compensation to the owner of the land because they cannot earn a ground rent.

It is argued by those who do not believe that ground rents should be abolished that you would discourage people from buying their own houses if they had to pay that extra £150 to £200. Let this be appreciated: if we no longer allow people to charge ground rent on land, then the earning capacity of the land no longer exists and, therefore, there is no longer any justification for imposing a fine of £200 to substitute for a rent which, by law, could not exist. I believe that if we were to pass a law prohibiting the creation of any new ground rents, this notional fine of £200 on a plot of land would no longer exist and it is certain that those who own land in areas where there is a demand for houses would be quite willing to sell their land at the open market price without any consideration for ground rent.

It is purely theoretical objection to argue that the abolition of ground rents would increase the initial cost of house purchase. At the moment it is not theoretical because land can earn ground rent. If a man has plot A, he can charge £15 per annum on it, and plot B exactly beside plot A under the existing legal position, can also earn a rent of £15. If a rent is not charged on it, the landlord charges an extra £150 or £200 fine to compensate for the loss of rent. Abolish the right to charge rent at all and the landlords could no longer get any compensation for a profit which the law would not entitle them to earn, in any event.

It is also argued by those who favour the continuation of the ground rent system that long leases on estates preserve the amenities of the estates, because the landlord retains certain control whereby he can prevent undesirable development. If it is a residential area, he can prevent the erection of shops and factories. It is argued that if the ground rent system is abolished, control goes with it. I do not agree. I think our local authorities superintend the development of different areas adequately. I do not believe that we need any more legislation to give local authorities control over the type of dwelling or building that can be erected, or the manner in which it can be used. We all know that local authorities have power at the moment to prevent the owner of a private house from converting his drawingroom into a shop.

There are ample powers under our legislation as it exists. I believe local authorities have the power to superintend the development of estates and areas, and, even if they have not the detailed power which landlords have, there is no reason whatsoever why we should not confer that power on them and preserve the one advantage the ground rent system has—the advantage whereby some independent and impartial person can control the general development of an estate.

Let us look at what investment in ground rent produces. Does it produce any new wealth? Is it a productive investment? Is it the kind of investment which is nationally desirable because it produces new resources and new wealth? I do not think any person can seriously suggest that it is. I believe investment in ground rent is a deadweight investment which will produce nothing new. It does not produce houses: it does not produce goods: it does not produce services. It is extraordinary that no accurate statistical assessment has been made of the amount of money tied up in this country in unproductive investment in ground rents. I venture to say the figure runs into hundreds of millions of pounds, producing no wealth and serving no useful purpose whatsoever. I have a feeling that if we were to abolish ground rents, we would release for productive purposes a colossal amount of wealth which is invested in this system of private tax levies. That would be socially desirable, and for that reason I believe the motion deserves support.

It is suggested, too, by some people, that to abolish ground rents by one stroke of the pen would be unfair to certain charities and trusts. To use that argument is to use the old argument: "Don't hit me now with a baby in my arms." I do not think society can be held up to ransom because certain charities or trusts may have money invested in ground rents. A red light of warning has already been flashed in this House on other occasions when a substantial and representative number have gone into the Division Lobby and voted against ground rents. If the bell was not heard tolling in the past, I am glad this motion allows it to be tolled once again.

I am afraid I must toll the bell, so far as the Deputy is concerned.

Mr. Ryan

It is unfortunate that I should be dealing with that point at this time and have allowed you, Sir, that particular opportunity of curtailing me. I would ask the House seriously to consider the matters I have mentioned and to allow it to go on record that this Dáil, at the opening of the 6th decade in this century, is opposed to the maintenance of a feudal system which imposes a private tax on private property.

To regard this question of rents purely as a remnant of the feudal system is to express a complete misapprehension of all the most important factors of the case. I am surprised Deputy Ryan does not appear to understand the way in which a building site is developed and the way that development is financed.

A builder may buy a site which he intends to develop for building. He has, first of all, to pay the purchase price for the land itself, and then develop it by putting in roads, pathways, lighting, drainage and other services. He can then begin to let it as sites and erect his buildings and he usually charges a small capital sum for the site. In each case, he charges for the erection of the house and he charges a rent. When the entire building estate has been fully developed and the houses sold and occupied, the builder then proceeds to sell the ground rent. Insurance companies are frequent purchasers of ground rents of this nature, which they buy as an investment, and the return which the builder receives from them is enough to compensate him for his costs of acquisition and development and to leave him a profit.

From what Deputy Ryan said this evening, anyone who makes a profit from the development of a building estate should be ashamed of himself as having done something anti-social. It is a fantastic idea that everyone should work at cost for the good of the community, without making a profit for himself. I should have thought that even Deputy Ryan would appreciate that. It is essential for a builder and for everyone else to make a profit. It is essential even for a solicitor to make a profit and it is very desirable that he should do so, if he wishes to stay in business at all.

If rents were to be abolished, no new rents could be created and anyone developing a building site would have to charge more as a capital sum for each house. This would inevitably increase the initial cost of the house to the purchaser. It would increase the amount of the deposit which he would have to pay. It would increase the stamp duty which he would have to pay on the conveyance to him and it would increase the amount of money he would have to raise by way of mortgage, with increased stamp duty on that as well. The result would be that the initial cost to each purchaser of a freehold house would be considerably greater than the initial cost of a leasehold house. It would have to be. It is no use for Deputy Ryan to shake his head. One cannot get around the actual facts.

The builder has got to get his money from somewhere. If he can get it by creating a rent which is really no burden whatsoever to a tenant he is doing a very good day's work not only for himself but for the prospective purchaser as well. Deputy Ryan admitted that the load of the average ground rent is very light. If this is a fact, as I believe it to be and as Deputy Ryan believes it to be, I cannot see any reason for the introduction of this motion, except as a vote-catching measure.

Nonsense.

The motion merely asks that these people be enabled——

He doesn't ask for abolition. All motions for the past fortnight have been described by Fianna Fáil as vote-catching.

Deputy Booth might be allowed to make his speech.

The point is that you can only enable them to do it by introducing legislation which gives them the money to do it. They are able to do it if they want to at the moment with their own money.

That is not so. The Deputy should get his facts right.

Where a landlord wishes to sell his ground rent and offers it to tenants, the number of cases in which the tenant is prepared to put down the lump sum to wipe out his ten pounds ground rent are negligible if they exist at all.

He has no right to purchase——

In 99 cases out of 100 he has not the money to do it.

Because he is burdened with ground rent.

Deputy Ryan said this is slight, that it can be overlooked.

Relating to the cost of the house.

Deputy Booth should be allowed to make his speech.

Mr. Ryan

I think he needs help to make it.

I do not think I need help from Deputy Ryan.

Mr. Ryan

You are loath to take it.

I should be loath even to attempt such a thing.

I shall try to help the Deputy.

I do not think Deputy Larkin can do so either. A ground rent is a very light load. It does not bear heavily on any section of the community. Its incidence substantially reduces the initial cost of the purchase price of the house. I challenge anyone to deny it. If ground rents are abolished the initial cost of a new house will substantially be increased. Why anybody should regard that as desirable, I do not know. According to Deputy Ryan, it is Fine Gael policy to wipe out ground rents altogether. I understand now from gestures from the front bench of the Opposition that as usual Deputy Ryan is wrong.

The Deputy is not repeating what Deputy Ryan said. The Deputy's contribution would be more helpful if he had read the motion and listened to Deputy Ryan.

I listened carefully. I understood Deputy Ryan to say it is Fine Gael policy to wipe out ground rents.

The right to purchase is what is at stake.

He spoke about eliminating ground rents.

Mr. Ryan

I said that Fine Gael policy was to introduce legislation to permit tenant occupiers to purchase the ground rents. Make what you like of that.

It is awfully nice of Fine Gael to propose to introduce legislation to permit them to do something which they are not forbidden to do at the moment. If what you mean is to enable them, by giving them grants to do it, that is an entirely different matter. What Deputy Ryan went on to say, as a natural corollary, was that the creation of new ground rents should be made impossible. I gather from him that that is Fine Gael policy also. Now, I understand from Deputy T.F. O'Higgins, who is shaking his head, that as usual Deputy Ryan is misquoting Fine Gael policy. This does lead to a considerable confusion. Deputy Ryan always insists he is speaking for Fine Gael and almost invariably he has to be chastened by his own front bench. I sympathise with both of them.

The control of estates by landlords is a matter very much in the interests of the tenants. I should be surprised if Deputy Ryan has not received complaints, as has any other solicitor and Teachta Dála, from a tenant in a building estate that his neighbour down the road is doing something to which he objects. He will say:"I have applied to the local authority and they say they cannot stop him from doing that." They cannot stop him from keeping hens or pigs in his back garden. So long as he is not creating a danger to public health the local authority cannot do it.

Most estate-owners and estate developers insert provisions to protect all the tenants against the misuse of premises by any one of them. The maddening thing about tenants is that they always like restrictions on neighbours but are very resentful about restrictions on themselves. We have to be realistic about this. If the restrictions contained in the covenants of a normal lease were entirely abolished it would give rise to much greater discontent than could possibly be compensated for by a mere lack of a payment of £10 per year ground rent.

The impression has been given this evening that this is purely a relic of the feudal system, that the unfortunate tenant is the honest working-man who is being ground down by a perfectly appalling, ruthless landlord who charges rent to him just for the sheer greed of it and inserts restrictive covenants in his lease just for the fun of being oppressive. Deputy Ryan knows that is absolute nonsense and, if he does not, I hope he will discover it before too long. In actual fact, these restrictive covenants are put there for a very good purpose—for the protection of the entire community. They are not unduly restrictive; they tend to keep up the general standard of a locality and to make it uniform, which is good.

When it can be established that these covenants are not unduly restrictive and when it is established and admitted that the load of ground rent is a very small proportion of the outgoings on any average house, I can see no reason for the introduction of this motion unless it be purely as a vote-catching measure.

We will have to be careful of our motions in future.

It would be very wise and I should be only too glad to help in that respect. I should be only too glad to help the Deputy because I have such respect for him.

The Deputy has not been much help this evening.

I believe that a motion should have some basis in fact and I believe that this has none. I believe that any proposal to introduce legislation to abolish ground rents is absolute nonsense.

This is not a motion for the abolition of ground rents.

If it is not for the abolition of ground rents it is even more absurd than I thought. Unless you make it complete, you create new ground rents; you enable a man to buy ground rents and he creates a new lease and you enable the other fellow to continue and nobody will get any further. If you are to be logical you will abolish ground rents altogether. I hope that the Deputy will allow me to vet. the motions beforehand.

The Deputy should have a look at this motion. He has not even read it.

Listening to Deputy Booth describe this motion, which has been tabled by the Labour Party, as a vote-catching motion one wonders why this House meets at all. We are now in Private Member's Time and we have had a great deal of it during this session because the plain fact is that the Government have no business to put before us. Were it not for the fact that Opposition Deputies table estimable motions such as this, this House would not be in session. I suggest that Deputy Booth should turn his attention to trying to galvanise his own Government into doing some work and then we could see that the work of the Dáil was done.

We have been criticised for not giving sufficient Private Member's Time.

This motion was described by Deputy Booth as a vote-catching motion. I hope it does catch votes because I think the purpose behind it should be passed into legislation. The motion is not one such as Deputy Booth suggested. It is a motion in simple terms to give the right to owners of dwellings and business premises in cities, towns and villages to purchase on equitable terms ground rents to which their houses might be subjected. Deputy Booth seems to think that such a change in the law is unnecessary. He seems to think that there is nothing now to prevent the tenant of any such premises from purchasing the rent to which his house might be subjected. Well, frequently there is one thing which prevents it and that is the fact that the ground landlord will not sell. At the moment the law is such that he cannot be compelled to do so, even if he were offered a capital sum which would yield the entire amount of the ground rent involved.

Deputy Booth thinks there is no difficulty about that. I am surprised that a Deputy for the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown constituency should so speak in this House. Deputy Booth may not be aware that most of the premises in the Borough of Dún Laoghaire are subjected to quite heavy ground rents. There is scarcely a house in Dún Laoghaire Borough which is held freehold by the tenant. In fact, the greater number of the houses on the Dún Laoghaire seaboard are held by people who are not living in this country. Deputy Booth thinks: "That is all right, let them put up with it." I wonder what would Deputy Booth's constituents think of that point of view? The proposal here is merely to give those people the right, if they wish to exercise it, to purchase the freehold of their property. Nothing very much is asked for in a motion of this kind.

From time to time, we have had to change the landlord and tenant law in this country and the one criticism I would express is that we have been far too conservative and far too slow to adopt changes which are already the law elsewhere. In Britain, which some people might regard as being the paragon of all virtues, this right is already established. In Great Britain a person who is subjected to a ground rent can, if he desires to exercise the right, purchase the freehold. What is so difficult about that? There are already powers which can be exercised under the Town Planning Acts, and other Acts, to prevent or restrict the unwelcome development of house property. Those rights are quite adequate. If they are found to be inadequate then additional power can be given to local authorities.

I dispute the right of the owner of some old estate, such as some of the estates that we have in this city and in the borough, to lay down a code of conduct for house owners. I do not think they have the knowledge to do it and, if there is to be a code laid down as to the manner in which people should use their own property, I would much prefer that it should be laid down by local authorities elected by the people and not by somebody whom we never see. Deputy Booth made the point that if lessees of houses were given the right to purchase out the freehold you would have some fearful unsocial development of house property. That is the sort of speech which used to be made by representatives of the British years ago in relation to our people when they said: "If you give the people of Ireland self-government they will not be able to govern themselves." That is utter nonsense. Most of the people who live here and who seek to buy their own houses value their own property very much. They would be the first people to ensure that the way they use or run their own property will give pleasure to themselves and generally will be a joy and pleasure to their neighbours.

I cannot see any reasonable objection to the proposals contained in this motion, that a person who desires to purchase out a charge on his property, such as a ground rent, should have the right to do it, provided he is willing to pay the necessary fair and proper sum either defined by agreement between the two parties concerned or by somebody else. Provided he is prepared to put up the money to purchase, he certainly should have the right to do so. Deputy Ryan gave examples of the way in which these rents become a burden on people and I suppose all of us could give similar examples. I do not know precisely what definition the proposers of this motion wish to attach to the term "ground rent", but I have in mind the type of case where you have, for instance, a building lease granted by some owner of property who leases his land to another and who puts that tenant under a covenant to build thereon a house of a certain value. The owner of that land is not developing it; the lessee is and the lessee has to spend his own money in building a house upon that land. It may cost £2,500 or £3,000. When he has the house built, the owner of the land reserves to himself a rent out of it. The owner of the land has had his property developed, a house built upon it and he has technically the freehold reversion in a capitalised piece of property which did not cost him a penny.

In those circumstances, all that the proposers of this motion ask is that the person who built that house and developed that land, laid out his money, toiled and put his savings into building the house, when he had it done, if he felt that it was good business for him to secure what he had done by taking in the freehold reversion, should then have the right to purchase out any land attached to the property. If he is fortunate enough to have the money over, why should he not be allowed to exercise that right and to purchase the ground rent?

It is not suggested in this motion that ground rents should be abolished. In other times, in other circumstances, it may be that such a view could be ventilated. I agree with this much of what Deputy Booth said that obviously the right to reserve a rent on property can be a social amenity. It can help to ease the development of certain properties and it can to some extent ease the lot of a person buying a leasehold interest. Nobody seeks to abolish or destroy such a right. All that is proposed here is that the lessee should have the right to purchase on equitable terms, that is, fair terms, terms fair not only to himself but also to the person whose interest he seeks to purchase, the ground landlord.

I would regard this as an eminently reasonable proposal. If it is a vote-catching proposal, I hope it catches sufficient votes to enable a majority in this or in some other House to bring about the necessary changes in the law.

I have been in the House when various Rent Bills were introduced. I was present in 1924-25 when the Town Tenant Bill was introduced. At that time, as Deputy Booth's colleagues know, tenants had no protection. Those of Deputy Booth's colleagues who have not the Dublin and the City outlook will agree that ground rents have been a bone of contention in their areas. In many cases the absentee landlord who is the owner of the land at the present time is the descendant of a person who was granted the land for services rendered to another Government. The absentee landlord never contributed one shilling in order to put a slate on a roof, while he derives rent from the property. In many cases, there are clauses in the lease giving the landlord the option to dispose of property that never cost him one shilling, without consulting the tenant in occupation.

As a result of legislation introduced in 1924-25, some protection was given. Under Part V of the Landlord and Tenant Act, the owner could not evict an existing tenant. There was a provision for an increase in the ground rent, but the tenant was given rights he had not had before. Prior to the introduction of that legislation, the tenant was at the mercy of the absentee landlord.

The demand for the right to purchase ground rents is greater now than it was in 1924-25. There are trade unions representing the people. There is a very large section of the community who have purchased their own houses under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act and who are very anxious to become the sole owners.

I have had the experience where without any great difficulty, a landlord was induced to sell his ground rent at the expiration of 10 or 15 years to the tenant. However, in the North Wicklow area, there is a landlord of a big estate to whom a man paid a considerable sum for a very small piece of land for the purpose of erecting a bungalow. After some years, when he decided to erect a garage beside the bungalow, he got notice from a solicitor acting for the landlord that he had broken a covenant of the lease which provided that he was not to erect anything without the permission of the landlord and would have to pay a further sum to the landlord to obtain permission to erect the garage. We are not concerned only with ground rents but with clauses that may be entered in leases. Deputy Larkin has pointed out that in some cases permission must be obtained from the landlord before the tenant takes in a tenant. A tenant may try to improve the house and his predecessors may have spent their savings in maintaining it, whereas the landlord may not have contributed anything but merely exacted the ground rent.

I am certain that the majority of the members of Deputy Booth's Party who represent rural areas, and even those who represent city areas, recognise that the case we make is a just case. We are concerned with the various clauses that may be inserted in leases submitted to tenants at a time when they have no alternative. The only protection that tenants have at the present time is the Landlord and Tenant Act.

In 1946, the Labour Party moved a motion recommending compulsory acquisition of ground rents. That was defeated. What various Governments have been nervous of is the cost to the State. Personally I do not think it would cost the State anything if the arrangements that have been made in one portion of my constituency were adopted, where the tenant continues to pay for ten or fifteen years and then automatically becomes the owner of the ground.

I admit that this is a complex question. We may have to set up a commission of inquiry to consider the arguments for or against. The owners of land residing in Ireland would be given an opportunity to put their case before the Commission. There is a great demand for some action in this connection. There are those who are purchasing their houses from a landlord or under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. In my constituency where a number of workingmen's houses were put up for sale an arrangement was made whereby the tenants in occupation would be able to complete purchase. These men started to improve their properties and became good citizens.

Deputy Booth's case is that if the builders are not allowed to get away with the £10 a year for a very small portion of land it may interfere with building schemes. However, in some countries where there is no ground rent more houses are being built than we are building here. I do not want to go into constitutional matters but I am sure the majority of Fianna Fáil members agree with the principle— that a man should be the owner not alone of his house but of the land on which the house is erected.

I trust we shall be more successful with this motion than we were with motions Nos. 24, 25 and 46 which have been debated here. It must be recognised that, for instance, in the midlands there are absentee landlords who are deriving benefit from ground rents and, according to reports which I think the Minister must have, there are some very severe clauses in the leases. We have advanced so much in the last 30 or 40 years that I do not believe that any judge of our courts would stand for some of the clauses, which are against the interests of the people.

We must recognise, whatever Deputy Booth says, that it is unreasonable for a builder having got his money in the form of a grant from the Government and from the Corporation and his money for the house to expect also to get a ground rent of £10 a year on the houses he has built. I support this motion and appeal to the Minister to accept the principle involved in it thus giving some security and contentment to the people whom we all wish to serve.

I do not intend to speak at length on this motion. I rise only to try in a small way to expose the gross hypocrisy of the Fine Gael Party when they support this motion. I agree with the underlying principle of the motion as I am sure do most of the Deputies on this side of the House. I think it is a good idea. Deputy Larkin, the mover of the motion, however, flatters the Fianna Fáil Government when he states that "in the opinion of Dáil Éireann the Government should without delay—‘without delay' are the operative words—introduce proposals for legislation." There was a Coalition Government there for three and a half years and there was no attempt whatever, as far as we know, by notice of motion or representations by the Labour Members of that Coalition Government to have the legislation enacted which they now suggest a Fianna Fáil Government can bring in without delay.

Although, as far as I know from discussion, most of the Fianna Fáil Deputies agree with this motion I do not think that by passing the motion the difficulties will be solved. This whole question is full of complexities. I happen to know a little about ground rents and I do know that when people put down a motion here that ground rents can be bought out for 15 years' purchase they do not seem to realise what is involved. We must divide houses into different categories: there is private housing, or post-1939 housing; there are business dwellings which are in an entirely different category; and then there is the property in the towns and villages of rural Ireland where absentee landlords derive an income while they live in the South of France.

While I for one would only be delighted if the developers of land for housing could get 15 years' purchase I should like to relate my own personal experience. Within the last two years I sold some ground rents myself; I got nine and threequarters years' purchase and was very thankful to get it. When we got back into power the financial situation greatly improved. Last month for 46 houses the ground rents of which were £10 10s. I got ten and a quarter years' purchase. I spent some months trying to get that ten and a quarter years' purchase.

If anyone suggested that 15 years' purchase would buy out the ground rents of private housing the developers of land would be very happy indeed. When dealing specifically with private housing the Minister should deal with it alone and enact legislation whereby tenants—I have in mind purchasers through the S.D.A., a building society, or an insurance company—could buy out an agreed number of years' purchase. There was grave criticism of the Dublin County Council at one stage because they would not give S.D.A. loans if the ground rents were more than £10. That was, of course, a form of control, but there was a good deal of sense in it.

A property was sold in Limerick the other day consisting of four and a half acres. Certain developments were envisaged. The head rent was £100 per annum. The purchasers had to pay some absentee landlord 45 years' purchase to buy out that £100 per year head rent so that they could proceed with development. The principle of this motion is worthy of every support.

Mr. Ryan

Hear, hear.

Deputy Ryan says "Hear, hear." Deputy Ryan prefaced his remarks by saying: "As the House is aware the Fine Gael Party has already publicly declared its intention to introduce legislation when returned to power to abolish ground rents." I presume there is a slight difference between Deputy Larkin's motion that the Government should, without delay, introduce legislation and Deputy Ryan's committal of the Fine Gael Party to introducing legislation to abolish ground rents when returned to power.

Mr. Ryan

We are more likely to do it before Fianna Fáil does it.

When returned to power after the next election.

That will not be long now.

Fine Gael believe— I wonder is that a collective noun— that the theory of ground rent is no longer valid in the twentieth century. We have had two Coalitions in the twentieth century and ground rents were apparently quite valid during those unfortunate periods in the history of this State. Let us be consistent. I have no criticism of the Labour Party. At least they have stuck to their guns down through the years. As Deputy Everett said, in 1924, 1925 and in 1946 the Labour Party moved a motion on this matter. But Deputy Everett forgot to say that he was Minister for Justice and remained strangely silent. However, as I say, the Labour Party——

We have convinced Fine Gael and we have only to convince Fianna Fáil now and this measure will be introduced.

The Deputy is preaching to the converted as far as the Government benches are concerned.

What about Deputy Booth?

It is a complex matter. Deputy Larkin, Deputy Ryan and other speakers on the Opposition benches did not tell us how the complexities of the matter can be resolved. They flatter us once more; Fianna Fáil can wave the magic wand. I admit some of our people are pretty hot. But no Opposition Deputy has told us how we should go about it. To get back to Deputy Ryan and the Fine Gael Party when returned to power after the next election——

Would the Deputy give the reference?

It is Volume 184, Column 988 of the Official Report. Fine Gael always have a policy, but they never print it when they are out of office. The week before last some of the leaders became "narked" and said they were going to print it. They were not going to print it though until the eve of the next general election and the reason given was that Fianna Fáil might tell lies about them.

Fianna Fáil would not, of course.

No. If the main Opposition Party has a policy, let them put it before the people. Then, after the next general election, when Fine Gael are returned to power we shall have all ground rents abolished. Maybe it will happen, though God forbid that we shall have a Fine Gael Government.

While I am on that point, and while the Leader of the Labour Party is present, I should like to point out—I want to correlate my remarks, before I am ruled out of order—that the Labour Party has committed itself never again to take part in a Coalition Government—a most commendable attitude to adopt and one inspired obviously as a result of their unhappy experiences in the past. Now we have the Fine Gael Party saying they will abolish ground rents if returned to office. The leader of the Labour Party has a responsibility to the people to make one simple statement here to allay the anxiety of his followers throughout the country. While he and his Party might not join in a Coalition Government, if Fine Gael got 49 seats and were short of a few votes, would the Labour Party support them, but still remain the Labour Party?

I am afraid I do not see the relevance of this.

It is a bit strained, I admit.

Very strained.

In conclusion——

Now I know what Goldsmith's "counterfeit glee" means.

——is Deputy Ryan aware that one of his own leaders was Minister for Justice and on 6th December, 1950, as reported in Volume 123 of the Official Report we have a clear statement of Fine Gael's approach to this matter:—

Mr. Tully asked the Minister for Justice if it is the Government's intention to introduce proposals for legislation in the near future with a view to giving leaseholders an opportunity of buying out their ground rents at reasonable terms, such as a 10 to 15 years' purchase.

Minister for Justice (General MacEoin): The answer is in the negative.

The Minister for Justice was a Deputy of the Fine Gael Party.

Frequently one hears the argument advanced that, whilst we have obtained political freedom, we have not yet obtained our economic freedom. The fact that it is necessary after 40 years of political freedom to table this motion is clear proof of the truth of the argument that economically we are not free. We in Fine Gael believe there is a very strong moral case for this motion. It does not, as some previous speakers have suggested, ask for the abolition of ground rents. Instead, it calls on the Government to introduce legislation to provide for the purchase of ground rents on equitable terms. Ground rents have been referred to as a feudal legacy and they are, in fact, a penal tax on the ownership of property. At this stage in our development it is surely outrageous that one can spend £1,500 or £2,000 buying a house and not own the land on which it is built.

Most ground rents in the city of Dublin are a legacy of our conquest. Many of them are paid to the Earl of this, or the Lord of that. It is worth noting that even this week one estate which is owned by a member of the British aristocracy, an absentee landlord, is endeavouring to claim a ground rent on land reclaimed by Dublin Corporation at Sandymount. Under some archaic legislation it would appear he has that right. Indeed, many ground landlords are the titled descendants of planters who obtained grants of land in this country in return for services rendered to a foreign monarch. Recently I came across a case of ground rent being paid in respect of an entire town in Leinster, one of our leading county towns; all of that rent, amounting to many thousands of pounds, is paid to no less a person than the Earl of Essex who does not live in this country. Beyond the fact that the Earl of Essex was a fancy man for the Virgin Queen, I am not aware of what right his descendants have to collect rents from anyone in this country.

That was a pretty good reason.

It might have been at one time but that day is gone. We in Fine Gael believe in the encouragement of home ownership and in developing a property-owning democracy. As Deputy Ryan said last week, we have one of the smallest ratios of individuals owning their own homes than any other country in Europe. That is a state of affairs which we should endeavour to rectify because it is very desirable to encourage the independent owner, who not only has to face up to the question of ground rent but is also penalised in many other ways, notably by Schedule A tax, which is another archaic reminder of a bygone age.

Also involved in this is the question of equity, of providing equitable compensation for bona-fide holders of ground rents as investments. Some ground rents are held by trust funds and, in fact, one of our leading Irish assurance companies is buying an increasing number of ground rents in Dublin city. This is not a threat but I think it should be pointed out to those who are buying ground rents that the time will come when they will be compelled to enable leaseholders to purchase them out on equitable terms. Of course the question can be asked what type of method is to be provided to enable a leaseholder to purchase his ground rent. The answer to that is to be found in the fact that many years ago the British Government introduced a scheme of land purchase in this country which has enabled our small farmers to purchase their farms on equitable terms by land annuities. A similar mechanism could enable a leaseholder to buy up the ground rent on his property but I want to put forward a case which I do not think has been developed so far. If, for financial reasons, the Government are unable to introduce a means of purchasing existing ground rents, there is surely a very strong case to be made for prohibiting the creation of new ground rents at fantastically high rates. I make no apology for relating my entire arguments to the city of Dublin. Despite what Deputy Corry had to say last week, the problem in Dublin is sufficiently grave to warrant particular mention and there is surely a case to be made for preventing speculators, many of them not nationals of this country, from exploiting the development of suburban areas by Dublin Corporation. At present the position is that if the local authority develops a new area by providing drainage, sewerage or road works, it is an unearned increment falling into the lap of the landowner. It is a gift of Heaven for him, but surely that unearned increment should accrue to the benefit of society as a whole.

When is this happening?

It is happening every week and Deputy Booth must be aware of it. There are many English property developers operating in this city, and Deputy Booth's membership of Dublin Corporation should enable him to secure all the details.

When does the local authority do the developing for the landowners?

Recently Dublin Corporation put into effect a drainage scheme in North County Dublin at a cost of upwards of £1 million which opened up a vast area for development. There is, therefore, an incremental value attached to the land in that area, but the landowner has done nothing whatever to warrant the vast profit which accrues to him as a result of that scheme. I say that profit should equitably accrue to society as a whole and, if the Government are not prepared to introduce a scheme for the purchase of existing ground rents, they should at least, by means of a capital levy or some other means, endeavour to restrict new ground rents at fantastically high rents.

I repeat that they are very high. The average £1,500 or £1,700 house which qualifies for a small dwelling loan is subject to a ground rent of £12 to £15 a year. The 50-year-old, four-bedroomed, red-brick house in the Dublin suburbs—the older type, pre-war house—in most cases is subject to an average ground rent of £5 or £6. Newly-built houses are subject to much higher ground rents. That is a most undesirable state of affairs. Because this city is expanding because there is a great need for increased housing development, is that any reason why a landowner should be in a position to exploit the need of the public for housing development? He has no moral right at all.

Mention has been made here of the desirable work being done by builders who, in return for the reasonable profit they earn, are developing housing areas in this city. Nobody is complaining about the building contractor who earns a reasonable rate of profit on the capital he invests in this development; but we are objecting to the land speculator—the developer, not the builder—because frequently the builder who erects half a dozen or a dozen houses "on spec" is not in fact the holder of the ground rents. More frequently, in fact, are the ground rents held by a speculator of the "spiv" type, whom none of us wants to see encouraged in this State.

What makes the Deputy think they are of that type? Is it just his imagination?

I can make my own case. Deputy Booth has already spoken and I have no intention of carrying on a debate here on the basis of question and answer. It is a fact that these landowners of whom I am speaking have contributed very little indeed to the development of their property. It might not be so bad if, say, the original owner of the land, a farmer or market gardener operating in our suburban areas, was in fact the person who benefited from this development, but very frequently the profit accrues to a speculator who has taken the land some years back from its original owner and who places himself in the position of being able to capitalise on this development by the local authority.

As there is less than an hour left——

I wanted to speak. I have a very good point to make.

The Minister is not concluding.

There is still time for the Deputy.

This is a motion with a limited time allowance. If I do not speak now, somebody will be asking me why I am not intervening in the debate. I understand that the movers of the motion have the right to reply. Therefore, it is desirable that I should finish as quickly as I can so that they will have the opportunity of replying.

Deputy Everett referred to the motion moved in this House on 13th and 15th February, 1946. That motion arose out of a question put down by the late Deputy Davin to which the then Minister for Justice, Deputy Boland, gave a negative reply. The motion we are discussing here this evening is identical with that motion discussed in 1946. It was debated here for quite a considerable time. Amongst the Deputies who took part in the debate were Deputy Norton, Deputy Dillon and Deputy McGilligan. All these Deputies advocated the abolition of ground rents in one form or another. The motion was put to a vote and lost by 40 votes to 21. In other words, of the 138 members of the House at that time, 61 participated in the division, representing about 44 per cent. of the House. This showed the lack of interest in the question. Of the Labour Deputies who participated in that division, only six voted. Only six members of Fine Gael voted. The remainder of the votes were made up of members of Clann na Talmhan and Independents.

I do not want to make a debating point out of this. I want to state the facts, and the facts are as follows. Within a short period of years afterwards, Deputy Norton became a member of a Government—and a very responsible member of that Government because he assumed the office of Tánaiste. Deputy Corish became a member of that Government later and Deputy McGilligan and Deputy Dillon were also members of it. I must presume that because of the interest they showed in that particular debate, they did at some time or other raise the question of ground rents within their own Government. Whether they did so or not, I have no information. However, I think some action was taken. The matter must have been considered at some level because the Bill which eventually became the 1958 Act was introduced here by the then Minister for Justice, but it did not become law before the dissolution.

Debate adjourned.
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