Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 31 May 1961

Vol. 189 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vota 30—Oifig an Aire Oideachais (Atógáil).

Debate resumed on the motion:

"Go gcuirfí an Meastacháin siar chun a athbhreithnithe"—(Risteárd Ua Maolchatha).

Pádraig Ó Fachtna

Sa Mheastachán seo rinne an tAire tagairt don mhéid go bhfuil deire curtha anois leis na Coláistí Ullmhúcháin. Tá mé go mór i bhfathach leis seo. Mhol mé ar an Mheastachán seo cheana féin go mba cheart deire a chur leo cionnas go raibh mé den bharúil nach rabh sé ceart go mbeadh ábhar múinteoirí scartha amach ón ghnáth-shaol ar fad sé nó seacht de na blianta is tábhachtaí i saol an duine agus go mór mór nuair a bheifí ag brath ar na múinteoirí óga seo a bheith ina dtreoraithe ar fud na tíre ina dhiaidh sin. Mura bhfaghann an duine óg seans caidreamh a bheith aige le daoine i ngairmeach beatha eile ó aois a cheithre bliana déag go dtí go mbíonn sé fiche bliain d'aois ní thig leis a pháirt chóir a ghlacadh sa saol mór ina dhiaidh sin. Tá muid ag iarraidh athrú a fháil ar an gcóras oiliúna le blianta anois. Is é atá uainn ná go mbeadh caoi ag an ábhar múinteora oideachas ollscoile a bheith aige i dtreo is go mbeadh sé ábalta oideachas níos leithne a bheith aige ná mar atá aige faoi láthair. Sílim nuair a druideadh na coláistí ullmhúcháin gurbh shin an chéad bhearna sa bhalla. Dúirt an tAire tamall ó shoin go rabh sé beartaithe aige feabhas mór a chur ar na Coláistí Oiliúna. Tá sin a dhíth, ach tá súil agam go mbeidh sé ag smaoitiú i gcónaí ar dhóigheanna le feabhas a chur ar an gcóras oiliúna chomh maith. Mhol mé go minic go mba cheart cead a bheith ag ábhar múinteora freastal ar an ollscoil agus céim a bhaint amach. Chuideodh sé sin le deire a chur leis an deighilt mínádúrtha atá idir múinteoirí na tíre seo idir mhúinteoirí bunscoile, méanscoile agus gairmscoile.

Tá áthas orm go bhfuil sé socraithe ag an Aire deontas a thabhairt i leith scoileanna a phéinteáil. Cuidiú mór do bhainisteoirí is é sin. Mar deir an tAire tá droch-dhóigh ar chuid de na scoileanna úra ach ní shílim go bhfuil an ceart ar fad aige nuair a chuireann sé an milleán ar bhainisteoirí. Tá mé go láidir den bharúil go bhfuil cuid mhaith den locht ar an ghnás atá ag Bord na nOibreacha Poiblí nuair a ghlacann siad leis an meastachán is ísle i gcónaí. B'fhéidir, de réir dlí, go gcaithfidh siad sin a dhéanamh, ach má tá an dlí mar sin ba cheart é a athrú. Nuair a scrúdaítear na meastacháin seo ba cheart go mbeadh innealtóirí agus ailtirí na Roinne ábalta a rá go bhfuil meastachán ar leith róíseal; nach dtiocfaí dea-obair a dhéanamh ar an airgead atá luaite anois agus mar sin nach ceart glacadh leis. Am ar bith a tharla a leithéid ní fada go dtáinig droch-dhóigh ar an scoil. Caithfidh sé a admháil, áfach, go bhfuil an chuid is mó de na scoileanna úra ar fheabhas agus tá moladh tuillte ag an Roinn as sin, agus tá moladh tuillte aige fosta as an méid scoileanna úra atá tógtha le bliain anuas.

Ceann de na gearáin is mó a bhí ag daoine a rabh suim acu sa chóras oideachais sa tír seo ná go rabh barraíocht páistí sna ranganna agus nach dtiocfadh le múinteoir obair fhónta a dhéanamh i rang a bhí ró-mhór. Tá feabhas ag teacht ar an scéal sin i ndiaidh a chéile agus tá áthas orm go bhfuil an tAire i ndiaidh céim eile a ghlacadh i mbliana. Dúirt sé fosta go mbeadh post speisialta ag múinteoir i gcás achan ceathrar múinteoir a bheadh ag obair i scoil. Tá sin inmholta. Tá cothrom na féinne tugtha aige, fosta, do mhúinteoirí nach rabh ach dhá dtrian dá seirbhis acu mar sheirbhís phinsin.

Ag tagairt do oideachas a thabhairt do pháistí a bhfuil mácháil choirp nó mácháil intinne orthu is é an chonstaic is mó a bhí ann ná nach rabh múinteoirí go leor againn leis ná páistí seo a theagasc. Glacann sé oiliúint ar leith a bheith ag duine leis an obair seo a dhéanamh. Tá áthas orm a fheiceál anois go bhfuil sé socraithe ag an Aire seans a thabhairt do mhúinteoirí cúrsa a dhéanamh le go mbeidh siad oilte páistí mar iad seo a theagasc.

Ba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh do scoil atá bunaithe i nDún Dealgan anois le páistí a bhfuil mácháil intinne orthu a theagasc. Tháinig scaifte daoine le chéile i nDún Dealgan agus shocraigh siad go mba chóir rud éigin a dhéanamh do pháistí mar seo nach rabh seans acu áit a fháil sna scoileanna agus sna hospidéil éagsúla atá againn do pháistí mar iad. D'oibrigh siad go cruaidh agus anois tá scoil foscailte acu. Tá moladh mór tuillte acu.

Tá deire curtha ag an Aire leis an teastas dá-theangach. Shíl mé i gcónaí nach rabh mórán céille leis an teastas céanna. Is minic a theip ar ábhar múinteora as an Ghaeltacht teastas a ghnóthú ag fágáil na coláiste oiliúna dó cionas nár éirigh leis i gceann de na páipéirí scríofa. Bé an cás ina rabh sé ansin ná go dtiocfadh leis na hábhair scoile a theagasc tríd an mbéarla ach nach rabh sé éifeachtach leis na hábhair chéanna a theagasc tríd an Ghaeilge gidh gurb í an Ghaeilge a theanga dhúchais. Ba mhaith liom níos mó eolais a bheith agam faoin gcóras úr atá beartaithe ag an Aire. Sílim gur maith an rud é go bhfuil an tAire sásta deontas a thabhairt do mhúinteoir óg atá sásta gabháil go dtí an Ghaeltacht. Sna Sé Chontaí tá riail ann go gcaithfidh múinteoir Gaeilge trí mhí a chaitheamh sa Ghaeltacht. Ach ba mhaith liom dá dtabharfadh an tAire freagraí dom ar na ceisteanna seo: Caidé mar a rachaidh an scrúdú béil seo i gcionn ar phá an mhúinteora? Faoin sean-chóras ní thiocfadh le múinteoir ardú pá a fháil mura rabh an teastas dá-theangach aige. An mbeidh an cás céanna anseo? Níor cheart dó a bheith mar sin.

An gcaithfidh an múinteoir fanacht cúig bliana leis an scrúdú béil a dhéanamh? Caidé a tharlóidh mura n-Éiríonn leis sa scrúdú nuair a bheas na cúig bliana thart?

Má théann an múinteoir go dtí an Ghaeltacht an mbeidh air freastal ar ranganna? Nuair a chuitear na scaiftí móra atá ag triall ar an Ghaeltacht faoi láthair san áireamh beidh sé doiligh go leor ranganna a chur ar fáil dó.

Nuair atá mé ag tagairt do na coláistí Gaeilge ba maith liom arís a iarraidh ar an Aire deire a chur leis na haistí Gaeilge sna coláistí sin. Ar a laghad ba cheart an cheist a scrúdú go mion agus barúla daoine a bhfuil taithí acu ar choláistí Gaeilge a fháil.

Le tamall anuas ba ghnáthach le daoine a rá nach rabh ach oideachas bunscoile á fháil ag 80% de pháistí na tíre seo. Níl sé seo fíor anois. Ón taithí atá agamsa tig liom a rá gur beag páiste nach bhfaghann bliain amháin ar a laghad i meánscoil nó i gceardscoil i ndiaidh dó an bhunscoil a fhágáil. Is cuimhin liomsa nuair nach n-imeodh ach corr-dhuine go dtí scoil eile i ndiaidh dó an bhunscol a fhágáil, ach anois tá a mhalairt fíor.

Bhí áthas orm nuair a chuala mé ón Aire go bhfuil an Roinn ag iarraidh níos mó ranganna eolaíochta a chur ar fáil. Ábhar iontach tábhachtach atá san eolaíocht faoi láthair. Tá céimithe eolaíochta iontacha againn agus tá siad a dhíth go mór orainn le cuidiú leis an fhorbairt tionscailíochta.

Mholfainn don Aire iarracht a dhénamh ar eolas a thabhairt do pháistí scoile faoi na gairmeacha beatha agus na bpostanna atá ar fáil agus moladh a thabhairt dófa faoi na cinn is foirstiní agus is fearr a bhfuil seans acu a fháil ag fágáil na scoile dófa.

Ní fada go mbeidh teilifís dár gcuid féin againn. Mholfainn go mór go mbainfí an fheidhm is mó a thig a bhaint as an teilifís sa chóras oideachais. Ní dócha go mbeidh teilifís in achan scoile go ceann tamaill fhada, ach ba cheart go mbeadh cláracha foirstineacha ar an teilifís do pháistí sa tráthnóna. Ní gá dom a ghabháil isteach sna mion-phointí anseo mar tá a fhios agam go dtuigeann an tAire chom tábhachtach agus atá an teilifís anois agus an dóigh a dtig leis smaointí ár bpáistí a mhúnladh.

Miss Hogan

I know that there are a number of teachers on both sides who will go very fully into the working of the Department of Education. I should like to say, however, that I think there should be a common bond between all the teachers. I know the Commission set up recommended that there should be three distinct scales— a secondary, vocational and primary. I would urge the Minister not to accept those recommendations. I feel that if he does so, he is dealing a very severe blow to the hardest-working members of the profession, the primary teachers. If the Minister accepts those recommendations, he is turning the primary teachers into the cinderellas of the profession; and in time he will find it virtually impossible to get primary teachers throughout the country.

Over the last weekend, I spoke to a number of teachers about this matter and also to a number of parents. There is widespread uneasiness about it. They feel that if the primary teacher is to be belittled in this way, the children he is teaching will also suffer. They feel the position will arise that the more backward the area and the poorer the child, the less attention he will get from the Department. After all, the foundation of education in this country is laid in the national schools. If it is not well laid down in these schools, secondary and vocational education will be of very little use. I know it can be argued that secondary teachers must spend three years at a university before they can take up a position; but so it can also be argued that a boy or girl who wishes to obtain a position in a training college for primary teachers must have a very high standard in the Leaving Certificate. After two years spent in training, he or she must teach for longer hours all subjects to a number of classes.

I do not want it to be felt that, in making this plea for the primary teachers, I am casting any aspersions on the secondary or vocational teachers. That is not so. But I do feel the primary teachers have much more difficulty in their work than either the secondary or vocational teachers. The Minister must know it requires much more skill, ability and patience to teach 20 infants than it requires to teach 50 semi-adults, whom you have in secondary schools, and indeed, in vocational schools.

There is another point I should like to raise on this Estimate, that is, the problem of the retarded child. This is a very serious question. It is a question that has received a considerable amount of sympathy from organisations in general, but very little has been done about it. The retarded child I speak of is the child who is backward or slow, rather than the completely retarded child. The plight of these children can be raised on the Health Estimate. These children obviously have no place in the national school, because the teacher cannot afford the time or the special training to keep them in line with the other children. Therefore, they are left out of the race. What we need are more schools to cater for these children, where they will get special treatment such as speech therapy and other therapeutic training which will enable them to face life and be able to earn their living on their own in later years.

We have one such school in my own constituency, in Kilcolgan, run by a religious Order. It is doing excellent work. The trouble is we have not enough such schools. Since I came into this House, I have been asked by parents if there is any hope of getting children into these schools, but in any place I have inquired they always say there is a long waiting list. That seems to be the position all over the country. We had hopes in Galway of establishing another school at the old sanatorium, Woodlands, with the help of a religious Order. I understand that the Bishop, for excellent reasons of his own, I am sure, has vetoed this. The Minister cannot question the decision of the Bishop, but I would urge the Minister to appeal to all Bishops throughout the country to give a little more attention to these children. We are supposed to be a predominantly Catholic country and we do very little for these unfortunate children. We are considerably behind other countries in this matter, particularly Scotland. I think they are far ahead of us. There are many other aspects I should like to raise on this Estimate, but I feel I am not in a position to do so.

Micheál Ó Ceit

Is maith an rud é go bhfuil beagnach níos mó ná £19 milliún á chaitheamh ag an Aire sa Mheastachán seo. Níor cuireadh mórán spéis i gcúrsaí oideachais sa tír seo le fada ach, buíochas le Dia, le blianta anuas tá athrú ar an scéal. Dá bhrí sin is comhartha maith é go bhfuil Meastachán chomh mór sin le caitheamh ag an Aire Oideachais i mbliana.

San óráid a thug an tAire deir sé go bhfuil sé ar intinn aige deire a chur leis an teastas dá-theangach agus go bhfuil sé beartaithe aige scrúdú béil eile a chur ina áit. Ní rabh mórán seans agamsa fós an t-athrú sin a scrúdú go géar. Ach ón méid cainte a bhí agam le daoine faoin athrú sin, ceapann siad gur maith an rud é. Té sé ar intinn ag an Aire scolaireachtaí a thabhairt do na múinteoiri óga le dul go dtí an Ghaeltacht chun an scrúdú béil seo a bhaint amach. Ceapann na daoine go rabh me ag caint leo nach amháin go ndéanfadh sé sin leas do na múinteoirí féin ach go ndéanfadh sé leas do na paistí faoine gcúram freisin.

In this Estimate of over £19 million, I am glad that the Minister gave it as his opinion that before we can be in a position to say we have an educational system that approaches the ideal, we shall have to increase still further our educational facilities. This is one of the biggest Estimates we have had for this Department. As the previous speaker said, education has long been the cinderella, and it is good to hear the Minister in charge propose the expenditure of over £19 million on this occasion, and that before we can reach the ideal it will be necessary to increase it still further. In that regard we are only keeping in line with other nations, even the nations beyond the Iron Curtain, which consider education to be of vast importance.

I agree with other Deputies who have said that we should not have the different branches of education— as it is in the Minister's speech—in watertight compartments, primary, secondary, vocational and so forth. I agree with other speakers who advocated that there should be a common basic scale for the teachers in all branches. I have listened to some of the speeches in this debate and the speakers seemed to be mixing up education in its truest sense with the mere imparting of knowledge. Education in its truest sense does not mean the imparting of knowledge. Later in my speech I shall quote from some statements which have been made by prominent ecclesiastics which bring out that point. Education in its truest sense is the development of the mind, the intellect, the soul and body of the child so that the child can use them to his best advantage to lead him to the goal for which he was created.

The formation of character and the moral and religious training come in as well, the development of the attributes of soul and intellect that will lead that child to its ultimate goal, not just the imparting of knowledge to help him pass examinations or perhaps secure some suitable position. One child may use his hands instead of his intellect and therefore we have the vocational system of education to suit the child who would be better adapted to that form than to using his brain or intellect. For that reason when the child comes to four, five or six years of age the first school he has to go to is the national school. Now, in vocational and secondary schools there is a certain amount of selectivity and all children do not go there. As I say the child who is going to use his hands may decide, or his parents may decide for him, that he should go to the vocational school. Again, all children do not go to the secondary school. If the child is not bright the parents may feel that he is not going to benefit and they are not going to send him forward for that particular type of education. By law, however, children are compelled to go to the primary and national schools. In that type of school there is no selectivity and the teacher has to deal with the bright child, the average child, the dull child and perhaps even the mentally deficient child, if there is no school in the locality to which mentally deficient children can be sent.

All types come along and the teacher then has to try and strike an average to suit his particular lesson so that it will benefit the majority, at least, of the pupils under his care. Therefore I consider, naturally enough, that the primary branch is really the most important of all these compartments into which our educational system is divided and if I were giving priority naturally I would be inclined to give priority to that particular branch because of the nature and importance of the work they have to do. Nevertheless I am in agreement that at least there should be parity between the branches. I cannot agree with the Commission that was set up and I cannot understand how they found that there should be a difference between these three branches. I hope, with other speakers, that the Government and the Minister will not act on the suggestions made by the Commission.

I should like to quote one or two extracts from the Minority Report of that commission showing the importance of the primary branch and that at the same time the majority did not seem to attach that importance to it. Most Reverend Dr. McQuaid, Archbishop of Dublin, is quoted in this report when speaking to the students of St. Patrick's Training College for National Teachers on May 31st, 1959, as saying:

You must wonder how a bishop regards his diocese. In very many ways. He sees it spread before him like a map in large contours and small details. He sees it dotted with churches, in each of which is the Real Presence of God made man, who once was found only in the little land of Palestine. He sees it, also, covered with schools, in each of which another sacred presence dwells, that of the Catholic teacher. To the men and women teachers, salt of our earth, whose influence has conserved the Faith and formed our nation, I pay tribute of grateful reverence.

I could not wish for you who will succeed them, a greater grace than that, by the help of God and the protection of His Blessed Mother, you should imitate their integrity of life and their devotedness of the divine Vocation of Catholic teacher.

Then the chairman of Muintir na Tíre, the Reverend M. Morrissey, speaking at the I.N.T.O. Congress in Kilkee, in 1960, at which I was present, is quoted as follows:

I am fully conscious of the tremendous potential of the National Teachers to mould the characters of our children in the true Christian Irish way. As our late founder, Canon Hayes, put it—teaching is not a job, it is a work of love for God, and the children of Ireland. "We couldn't pay our teachers too much," said Canon Hayes, "as long as they are good men and women." They have the most responsible job in the world. They are God's own men and women, who kept religion, decency and sacrifice in the country. Here in Ireland, the National Teachers not only educate the children, but they play a very important rôle in the life of the parish community. They were looked up to, they were trusted, and they never failed. It is, therefore, with good reason that our organising committee states in its latest report, while the National School Teachers have done trojan work for our movement, the other professions do not seem to have grasped their potential as leaders in their local community.

There are several other quotations from that report I might give but it all goes to show how highly the teachers in charge of our national schools are regarded by the people I have quoted, and I cannot understand how a Commission could come to the conclusion that they were the cinderella of the teaching profession. The Commission's findings constitute a slur on the primary branch. It will be very hard to encourage young men and women to enter that branch of education when that slur is being cast upon it. It is also a slur on the children under their care. I trust the Minister will not act on the findings of the Commission.

I congratulate the Minister on the building programme to which he referred. I was glad to ascertain, in reply to a Parliamentary Question last week, the number of new schools that have been built in the past five years in County Galway and the additions that have been made to other schools and the number of new appointments that have been made. This is very encouraging. I have read speeches in the local papers in the last month or so from Opposition members in my own county who are going around like banshees bewailing that the schools are being denuded of children, bewailing emigration and the closing down of schools. That is why I put down my question and I was glad to find that instead of schools closing down—I knew before the Minister answered at all that the opposite was the case because additions were put on to the school in which I teach and on to three or four neighbouring schools—still more teachers are to be appointed as the accommodation becomes available. In other words, further additions are being made to schools, due to the averages increasing. I ask the Minister to expedite the building of these further additions. These appointments will ease the work of existing teachers which is becoming very difficult because of increasing numbers on the rolls.

As regards school buildings in the country generally in recent years the Minister is to be complimented. He has made another contribution, as he indicated in his speech, which will be of great benefit to managers, the two-thirds grant for the painting of schools. We already have grants for heating and cleaning which are rather inadequate in some cases and must be supplemented locally. This further concession is very welcome and will be welcomed by teachers, parents and the children. One of the biggest costs of national school maintenance is painting which has to be done regularly unless the school is to be allowed to go into disrepair. This grant will encourage the maintenance of the schools and help to keep them in proper repair.

Last year, or the year before, I urged that there should be some sort of first-aid outfit in each national school, especially in schools in places far removed from a doctor or a nurse. Teachers in training get a two-year course in physiology and physical training and, although perhaps not fully qualified in First Aid, many of them have been in the Red Cross. Courses are run by the Junior Red Cross and, if a teacher attends during the holiday period, he can get personal leave as a result. Between the Red Cross and the Department somebody should ensure that a proper first-aid kit is kept in each school to treat minor injuries. It might mean the saving of a pupil's life to have such a kit available if a child meets with an accident in the playground. I have been asked to urge this matter again on the Minister. Where new schools are being erected, provision could be made to have the first-aid press incorporated in the building.

I also urged it some time ago, but I do not think any grant has been made yet towards the provision of materials for kindergarten and needlework. These materials are provided by the teachers at their own expense and I do not know that the income tax authorities allow them anything for it. A grant in respect of these materials is overdue as these materials are handed out by the teachers to the children to enable them to carry out the exercises.

I again congratulate the Minister on all that he has done for the teaching profession since he came into office and particularly for what he has done for the pensioned teachers. He has earned the undying gratitude of the pensioned teachers for the manner in which he treated them when he gave them the other two-thirds of the gratuity to which they felt they were entitled. They had already got one-third and two-thirds remained. They felt— and I think the Minister gave them to understand—that when the country's financial position improved, with the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, they would be paid that gratuity. He has done so, and has also honoured the findings of the conciliation and arbitration committee with regard to salaries of national teachers, and he has improved their position in many ways since he became Minister.

He has also, of course, increased the principal's allowances, with particular reference to the smaller schools. I have had experience of teaching in various types of schools, and from my experience, I have great sympathy with the teachers in charge of infant divisions. The teacher in charge of those very junior classes has not the same field of promotion. The field of promotion open to them to become principals and to earn the capitation grants which the Minister has increased, is not very wide. If long-term increments, or service increments for satisfactory service, were given to assist teachers in charge of infant classes, second and third classes, and preparatory classes, it would compensate those people for the onerous work they have to do. In view of the fact that the opportunity for promotion is limited, it would encourage them and make them happy in the work to which they are accustomed.

Séamus Ó Cearbhall

Táim cinnte go mb'fhearr ar fad dom an méid atá le rá agam ar an Meastacháin seo a rá as Gaeilge, ach nuair a bhí mé ag éisteacht le Teachta eile agus é ag caint as Gaeilge, ní raibh fhios agam, ach amhaín cúpla focal, céard a bhí á rá aige. Dá bhrí sin, cé nach bhfuil an Béarla go han-mhaith agam ach oiread, b'fhéidir gur fearr dom labhairt as Béarla.

I have never been able to understand the relationship between the school managers and the Department of Education. In fact, I have been told on occasion that even the Minister cannot interfere with school managers. While I have no comment to make on the educational system as I am satisfied that has been dealt with very well by other speakers, there is one point I should like to bring to the notice of the Minister who possibly might convey it to the school managers.

Teaching has been described as a profession and I accept that. I also feel that it would be a good thing if we could inculcate into the children the ideal of God and country. In that connection, my only suggestion is that, if it lies within the jurisdiction of the school manager, apart from whatever knowledge may be imparted to the children by teachers, whether religious or otherwise, the first lesson in the case of these children should be God and country, and a development of respect and honour for the flag of this country for which so much has been given and so many sacrifices made.

The managers should get a direction from the Minister that the flag shall be prominently displayed in every school. Representations were previously made to the county managers that the 1916 Proclamation should be so displayed in the schools, but those representations failed. I have travelled extensively and it has been a pleasure indeed to me to see the national flag displayed in schools abroad, and even in countries where religion is not given as prominent a place in daily life as it occupies here. Physiotherapy and all the other training necessary for the child's future life have been mentioned here but it would be far better, without being in any way irreverent, to inculcate a respect for and an appreciation of the flag, as well as the lesson of God and country.

I hope the Minister will consider that suggestion. This Government and previous Governments have failed, for whatever reason, to establish the 24th April as a day of honour. Perhaps the Minister could now add to his laurels and merit even more all the good things that have been said about him—I mention this lest any monetary consideration be thought of—by making the 24th April a school holiday, so that, even in their young way, the children will recognise and appreciate it for what it is.

As I say, heretofore I have been unable to get any satisfaction with regard to the position of school managers in relation to the Department. I am sure I will not be charged with being anything but democratic but it seems to me that as we have a Minister for Education, a Department of Education and this Estimate, which relates to all the financial matters, the display of the flag in these schools might well be arranged.

Reference has been made to a special grant for the painting of schools. I appreciate that suggestion because I have seen, to my horror, some of the amenities provided even in Dublin city schools. I shall be perfectly satisfied and feel that my contribution, small as it is, has been valuable if some consideration is given to these questions. I notice it now seems customary to bring children to see this House. I do not know whether they will go home in any way better educated——

Mr. T. Lynch

They are disillusioned.

Mr. Carroll

——but at least it can be said that the flag flies over the House, and does not fly over the schools. I hope the Minister will give consideration to these matters.

Mr. T. Lynch

I shall address the House in the language of the foreigner. In the first place, it is the only language I know and, even if I did know another language, I should not persist in speaking it all the time. I should have some consideration for the rest of my colleagues in this House.

The previous speaker mentioned the school children visiting here. I noticed the school children who were here this afternoon flying from the Gallery because of the sounds that were coming from the floor of the House, sounds which were supposed to constitute the Irish language. Never in my life did I hear the language so battered about as it was battered on the far side of the House for nearly 20 minutes here this evening.

I have some admiration for the present Minister for Education, but I do not intend to throw out compliments to him, right, left and centre. I intend to take him to task at the outset. Perhaps that will be a change for him. In the Irish Times of 29th March of this year there is a report of a speech made by the Minister at a Fianna Fáil Central Discussion Group in Clery's Restaurant. That is a most dangerous place for any Fianna Fáil Minister to visit; they always seem to put their feet in it there.

The Minister was reported as saying:

... the Council of Education's Report on secondary schools would be published soon. There was still ... a serious defect in our social system in so far as it impinged on education; that defect boy or girl who was poor but clever had often no adequate opportunity of receiving the entire course of education available.

I intend shortly to make a start at remedying that defect. I say "make a start", for nowadays the walls of Jericho do not always fall down at the first blast. The help of all of you will be needed, but if once we can establish even the pattern of free education the whole way up for the poor but clever child, it should not be too difficult thereafter to continue that advance.

That is lovely

... four years ago there were tens of thousands of national school children who had never laid eyes on a trained teacher and 25 per cent. of national teachers were untrained.

We may as well put the blame where it lies. It does not lie with the present Minister or with the former Minister here on my left. It lies with the Fianna Fáil Party and their successive Ministers for Education right from the day they first took office. We will go back to the year 1932 when Fianna Fáil first got in. If, from the time they took office, and if, all through the time they were in office, they had continued to train teachers there would today be enough teachers in the country. If the Minister's statement that there are not enough trained teachers is correct, one has to remember that the year 1932 passed by, the year 1933 passed by, the year 1934 passed by, and the year 1935 passed by. Then, true to the policy of Fianna Fáil—as far as my constituency is concerned, when anything has to be lopped off, it is lopped off in Waterford—in the year 1935 they closed the De La Salle training college there. Had that college been kept open there would undoubtedly have been more trained teachers. Put the blame then where it lies right on the shoulders of Fianna Fáil and on the policy of Fianna Fáil. The policy has been an unbroken policy of destroying everything in the constituency I come from and in the city in which I was born.

On the Vote for the Department of Justice I and other speakers had something to say about juvenile delinquency. We come to the root of the trouble on this Estimate for the Department of Education. It is very easy to say that this, that and the other should be taught in the schools. The teachers should teach the pupils this, and that, and the other. Parents in Ireland have a duty to their children. In my opinion there should be more propaganda by the Department of Education directed to instilling into parents a proper sense of their duty. Propaganda should be used to instruct parents that when they send their children to school they are sending them into the care of the teachers and they must be prepared to allow the teachers to discipline the children and to punish them, if punishment is necessary. I do not subscribe to all this nonsense and all this "do-good" talk that we hear: "There is no such thing as a bad boy." All boys and all girls can be very naughty and very bad.

The foundation of a civilised community is discipline. We would have a better State and a better country if the school children knew that there was no High Court to which they could go and that there was no use going home and bringing mamma up to threaten the teacher or papa, as has happened in some cases, with his coat off to fight the teacher. I agree with my colleague, Deputy Lindsay. He spoke here about these truculent and impertinent young fellows who will threaten a teacher before the entire class and the teacher is quite helpless. All discipline has broken down. A teacher so threatened or so abused should be able to report to the Minister and the pupil concerned should be expelled from the school.

We will have to grow up. We have had our own Government now for 40 years. We should be mature as a nation. I have had experience. I have seen letters and I have interviewed teachers whom small children defied in class. I do not lay the fault for that at the door of the Minister but, as I said at the outset, more propaganda should be used via the Department and through the clergy who are the managers of the schools. They should be asked to speak from their pulpits and to tell parents that, if they are not prepared to put their children completely in charge of the teachers, it would be better for them not to send the children to school at all.

The conduct of children today is not good as compared with that of those who went before them. I know it is customary for people to bewail that the younger generation are going to the dogs. The fact is that the deterioration today is so marked that no one can afford to be complacent about it. We all know the amount of wilful damage done all over the country. It is done because there is no discipline. There is no discipline in the schools. I do not blame the teachers for that. The parents have failed to stand behind the teachers. It is the duty of parents to support the teachers.

My colleague, Deputy Miss Hogan, said that the foundations of education are laid in the national schools. They are. Great people in this country came out of the national schools and never got anything but a national school education. Is our system of education today as good as it was in the past? Has is improved on what it was 50 years ago or 40 years ago? I remember about 10 years ago reading a report of a meeting of the I.N.T.O. A young man at that meeting said that he was getting away from the idea that children should write copperplate writing and have a good knowledge of the three Rs. I should have liked to have been at that meeting. I should have liked to ask that gentleman what was wrong with the three Rs? What was wrong with the system of education that taught children how to write properly? What was wrong with the system of education that taught children how to spell? What was wrong with the system of education that taught children there were such words as "please" and "thank you"?

Deputy O'Carroll said we should put more stress on God and country. We have always been a religious people, thank God. I agree with his comments about the nation's flag. This is a matter in which perhaps teachers could foster the cause and further the crusade. I know a teacher in a country school who erected, with the aid of the parents, a magnificent flagpole and the National Flag is hoist there every morning with ceremony by his pupils and taken down every evening. I think that is what Deputy O'Carroll has in mind. That could be done and if it were done by the pupils, the teachers and the people of the area it would be much better than having it done by direction of the Minister.

Like my namesake of whom the Bard of Thomond wrote, I know my country's history well but I deplore the manner in which history has been taught to children. I am sure the members of the Government deplore it also. A great deal of history is being taught in a great number of schools but it is not history that is being taught but hate. The sooner we get away from that the better. It is a good thing to know the history of your country. It is a good thing to know about the leaders in all the centuries. History should tell the children of today about the ordinary plain people of Ireland, the peasants as they were called, the man in his bare feet, who had to live in a cabin without a window, who had no dinner, who eat no meat, tea or sugar, who had no bed to lie on. Not enough is known about that phase in our history. We are always told about leaders and battles but we are not told how people lived, what they did, what their hopes were, what they had to suffer, what their joys were.

I would recommend to the Minister that some of the officers of the Department of Education would read a book written by an American and published recently, To the Golden Door by George Potter. It tells why the Irish people were poor, how they were kept poor, why they had to emigrate, where they emigrated and what happened to them. It is told with magnificent sentiment. Every boy in this country should know about the matters described in that book, should know that in spite of the grinding poverty and hardship our people had to suffer, their nobility was such that they were able to rise to great things.

It is mentioned in the book that Irish emigrants were thought so little of that they were looked upon as dirt in America and that when you wanted a name lower than anything else, you described it as "Boston Irish". We know the answer to that. There is one of them in the White House today.

I have to return to the question of punishment in the schools. Questions have been raised in this House. A pamphlet has been published to discourage the teachers. I say to the Minister: "Stand behind the teachers." I should like to tell the Minister a story about a predecessor of his, a member of his own Party. I went into the Library. The late Seán Moylan was there. He was then a Deputy. He was talking to a gentleman and a lady, who were interested in this pamphlet on punishment in schools. He dragged me into the conversation by introducing me to these people. These people were against all forms of punishment in the schools; their view was that teachers should not be allowed to say "booh" to a child. I did not want to be impolite and I saw that the former Minister did not want to be impolite but one of these people said: "We want to do away with these straps and canes" and the former Minister, Seán Moylan, said, "Well, I suppose you are right. The man who taught me had neither straps nor canes." They were delighted. I think they were about to take a note of his statement. "But," he said, "he had an ash plant with a knob on it. The fact that he had it there was the great deterrent. He did not use it, except to strike the desk with it very savagely sometimes and kept it to threaten some delinquent with it."

There are people who want to teach by high psychology or some such means. They say that you should not threaten children at all. If children are not threatened and if they are not punished they will become juvenile delinquents. They will get out of hand. They will not be good citizens. They will turn out to be blackguards. The child whose teacher is a stern man has a much better chance of becoming a good citizen because he will be on the ball all day. He will be looking in, as the children did in Goldsmith's poem, to see if the teacher is in a good humour, that there will be no "day's disaster in the morning face".

The Minister has indicated that the demand for secondary education is increasing. That is all to the good. I consider—and I am sure the Minister will examine this—that for those people who are going to the training colleges for primary teachers there should be some means of helping them through the university because there are many of them who would like to become secondary teachers and to qualify as secondary teachers.

I would say to the Minister that a great deal more notice should be taken by his Department of the kindergarten school. I know that we can have it only in big centres of population but there are big schools in the country districts and there should be a special kindergarten teacher appointed to these schools.

I do not want anybody from the other side to say "The Deputy wants to spend a lot of money." I would not mind spending the money. It would be a great preparation and a great help to primary teachers. Primary teachers have said to me that where children came from kindergarten schools these children were much easier to teach. These kindergarten schools have been going on for a long time. As a matter of fact I am nearly sure that the Montessori system was started in Waterford by the Ursuline nuns. It was they who introduced it into Ireland but I would like to see it more commonly used throughout the country.

I think there is a great deal of rewriting to be done in the case of many text books. I would be tempted to say that we should bring them more up to date and that we should look back on the great readers that the Christian Brothers had—the fourth, fifth and higher readers. I have never come across anything like them since. Maybe the Department of Education has copies of them. They have become collectors' pieces of late. For the education of Irish boys and girls the general run of these books was good. They contained literary pieces, good historical pieces, and some of the best of our poetry both in Irish and in English. I think the time has come when we should have a good general reader.

I come to a portion of the Minister's Estimate about which I have spoken every year since I came into the Dáil —the National Museum, the National Library, the National Gallery and the National College of Art. I often heard Deputies here speak of our national heritage but if you asked them what it was they would not know. I put it to the Minister that a great portion of our national heritage consists of the treasures in the National Gallery, the National Library and the National Museum. I say once more to the Minister, and I think he is sympathetic, that the staffs of the National Gallery, the National Library and the Museum are dedicated people. Were it not that they loved their work, they would not have remained there under the conditions under which they work.

I was in the National Library only last Thursday. The Reading Room was overcrowded. It is good that the accommodation is overtaxed but the necessity is there for much more accommodation. I know that this is a headache. There is the question of what should be done or the decision that should be taken, whether we should take the National Library out of Kildare Street and build new premises or take the College of Art out of Kildare Street and add these buildings to the National Library. I am sure if we were doing that, the National Gallery would want a good portion of the College of Art because, through no fault of the Curator or his staff in the National Gallery, we have no proper inventory of what is in the Gallery. All the stuff is just packed into it and there is no room to store all these magnificent treasures.

I notice that the Grant-in-Aid for the purchase of books is £5,000. I would say to the Minister that £5,000 amounts only to pence with the cost of books today. Before the war you could buy the first edition of any new work coming out and if it cost 7s. 6d. or 10s. 6d. you would consider that you were paying sufficient for it. Now when a book comes out that you think the National Library should have the book will run from 50s. to maybe £6. I went to the trouble of finding out how matters stand with the library run by our fellow countrymen in Belfast. They get £20,000 for the purchase of books. I say to the Minister that the sum provided for the National Library of this country is grossly inadequate.

For the survey and reproduction of Irish historical records in foreign collections the Grant-in-Aid is £3,250. I would support that but at the same time I know how expensive it is to send people to Spain and Rome where a great deal of valuable records are kept. They have to be copied and photostat copies made. That is a very expensive business.

For the Survey and reproduction of films the Grant-in-Aid is £300. In 1961-62 it was £600. The Minister should pay a little bit more attention to that. We had a film shown here some time ago by Gael Linn. They went into the National Library and obtained access to a lot of old films belonging to Pathe Gazette and various people who used to make films and they were able to make a magnificent commentary on a phase of our history. It was worth while. I have been told that a great deal of the films from which they were copying have practically perished. The type of films they were using in those days, say from 1900 on, would be very bad. From 1911-12 and on to 1925-26 films improved but the type has deteriorated. I say to the Minister that he should be prepared to increase that amount substantially, to have an immediate survey made of those films and that they be reprinted and recopied. I do not want anybody to spring on me and say I am making an attack on the Irish language.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, June 6th, 1961.