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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Jun 1962

Vol. 196 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 39—Lands (Resumed).

I was dealing on the last night with the approach that should be made to the land problem generally, particularly in view of our proposed entry into the Common Market. I was pointing out generally to the House that land is a scarce commodity in this country and how necessary it is for us now to reassess our whole approach to the problem.

Before I go on to one or two generalities to conclude the debate, I want to deal briefly with some of the points made by Deputies in the course of the discussion. Deputy Tully complained of delay in allotting the Langford estate which he alleges is in hand since 1953, and he said the Roscrea Meat Company estate is in hand since 1957. He alleged that the Land Commission are letting the lands on the 11-months' system to make money. The Langford estate was all allotted, except 68 acres which are not all arable—they are a remnant which has been left over. The Roscrea estate was borrowed from the Land Commission by the Department of Agriculture for at least one year for TB purposes, to deal with reactors, and that caused part of the delay.

That estate was mainly intended for over-standard holdings for large migrants from the congested areas. In that connection I should state that it has been the policy, and I think a sound policy, for the Land Commission, where they can get them to go, to take out large migrants from the congested areas. That type of migrant is more used to dealing with the large type of farm than the general run of the small congested people. Where we can get one of these large migrants from the west to come up, it is far better economics for the Land Commission and the State to have only one man to deal with by exchange from perhaps 150 acres in the West to 120 acres or a similar acreage in the eastern part. There is not the very high expenditure that is incurred by taking up five migrants instead of one. Deputies in the main will agree that is a better type of practice, generally speaking. In connection with the Roscrea estate, many over-standard migrants refused to take holdings there but I am glad to say it is now in course for distribution probably to the type of migrants for whom it was intended.

I want to deny categorically that the Land Commission let land for the purpose of making money as has been alleged and as is generally believed. In fact, from the point of view of the State, the amount of revenue derived by the Land Commission from the letting of land is generally the comparatively small figure of approximately £8,000 a year, that is, taking the expense of the stocktakers and so on into account.

Why keep it for ten years?

Generally speaking, it is not kept for ten years, unless there are some particular difficulties with regard to an estate. It is not the policy of the Land Commission to take ten years, or anything like it to deal with an estate in the normal course of events. In some cases due to local congestion, it is considered that the amount of land acquired is not sufficient to deal with the problem and it is necessary to wait and get an agglomeration of land in order to make a proper re-arrangement scheme. Generally speaking, when the ordinary machinery of the Land Commission starts working and assessing the applicants in the local areas, they are anxious to get rid of the estate as quickly as they possibly can. I want to make it quite clear that no question of revenue enters into this at all. In fact, on assessing the figures, I am confident that it is bad business for the Land Commission to be letting land.

I could not agree more.

We are anxious to speed up the division of these estates as quickly as we possibly can. I know there is a general feeling outside that in some cases the Land Commission were over-generous in the price they paid for land and that they are holding on to it to try to recoup part of the difference of the resale value. That is not true. The only reason the Land Commission let land at all is that they have a duty from the point of view of the State to utilise the land and get revenue from it while it is in their hands.

Deputies will appreciate that in the normal scheme it is not possible just to divide land overnight. Deputies would be the first to complain if a proper assessment were not made of those who seek to get it. That process naturally entails delay.

Not ten years.

They have to call on all the prospective applicants within at least a one mile radius of the land for division. A scheme has to be prepared and in some cases houses and outoffices have to be provided. It just cannot take place overnight. I want to assure the House that there is no truth in the allegation that the Land Commission are letting any of these estates for the purpose of getting revenue.

Deputy Corry raised the question of a couple of estates in the Cork area. In connection with the Franks estate which he mentioned, I want to tell him and the House that the Land Commission have not yet got possession of that estate. We are getting it all right but the negotiations and the legal machinery have not yet been settled. So far as the Green estate which the Deputy also mentioned is concerned, I am glad to inform him that a scheme has been lodged for dealing with that estate.

Deputy Leneghan and other Deputies mentioned the difficulties in regard to turbary at present and the question of turbary development. That is a general problem in the west. I receive more complaints about the scarcity of turbary and the necessity for developing it these days than I do about land in the west of Ireland. The fact is that in many cases where the Land Commission dealt with estates many years ago and gave turbary plots of half an acre or an acre, these plots have been used up and in many cases people now have to travel 15 or 20 miles looking for turbary. Nobody foresaw 20 years ago that most of our major bogs would now be taken up for national development by Bord na Móna and turbary is becoming a commodity that is getting scarcer each year.

There is no easy solution to this problem but I can assure the House that where it is feasible the Land Commission proceed to develop turbary where they can get it. In many cases there are legal difficulties too because the ownership of the turbary has been parted with already by the Land Commission and that creates further difficulties. When the Land Commission come back to develop it they leave themselves open to the possibility of certain legal actions. I can assure the House that in so far as it is practicable or feasible the Land Commission are trying to develop turbary where it is available.

Deputy O'Donnell of Limerick, who made a very thoughtful contribution to this debate, mentioned the question of dairymen and the eldest sons of farmers letting land for dairying purposes and that this type of person should be considered specially for the allocation of holdings. Here again let me admit candidly that there are many dairymen who would, I am sure, be worthy of holdings if we had the holdings to give out, just as there are many types of cottiers who would no doubt make good use of the land if they could get it. While I do not want to close the door on any of these categories let me make it quite clear and reiterate what I said last week that every new category that comes in diminishes the prospect of relieving the congestion we have got to solve and there is not enough land or nearly enough land to go around for all these different classes of people. While there may be exceptions made in certain cases, depending on special circumstances, unless the Deputies face this problem—if they do not face it today they will have to face it tomorrow— that with the limited pool of land available that we can contemplate getting for the relief of congestion, if we do not cut down the classes and categories that are to get holdings on these lands, then we can forget about dealing with or solving the congestion problem in our time.

Deputy Brennan of Wicklow mentioned water supplies being provided instead of pumps to individual farms. Let me say that there has now been a change in policy and that in the new Land Commission houses it is intended to provide water where we can find it. Deputies from rural areas will be familiar with the problem, in some areas, of finding water and even with the best intentions in the world it is not always possible, indeed, in some cases even after getting the services of diviners and bringing in drillers to get an adequate supply of water for the servicing of the houses or of the land holders concerned. At all events, I want to say the policy now is, where it is feasible to do so, to provide water in the new houses that are being erected or allocated.

I should say in connection with migrants, particularly to Deputy Tully, that I have made an assessment of the land in Meath and how it was disposed during the past 40 years. It may surprise Deputy Tully to learn, in view of what he had to say here about migrants, that 78 per cent. of the land of Meath over the past 40 years, taking one year with another, went to local people.

But that was changed when the Minister took control.

That is the answer to the allegation of a western invasion and that nobody but migrants from the west got land in Meath.

Nobody but westerners are getting it today and some of them are not so hot.

The facts and figures are there, that 78 per cent. of the land acquired and divided in that county over the past 40 years has gone to locals.

Take the past ten years.

Order. The Minister.

I will, and I will take the next ten years with what I can get in County Meath.

You hope.

Certain people who are not properly using the land——

Equal rights for equal privileges.

I propose to do that with the help of the people of this House.

You will make——

On a point of order, Sir, when I was speaking, I did not make a provocative speech and the Minister is most unfair in the assertion he has just made.

That is not a point of order.

I do not know whether or not the Deputy is particularly thin-skinned on this question. The Deputy gave the impression that all the land taken by the Commission in Meath was going to migrants.

I did not say that. The Minister answered Questions I put down.

The Deputy can fight his arguments with the migrants in Meath.

They will fight with you.

I do not propose to delay any longer on that question tonight. Deputy Leneghan of Mayo dealt with a number of points about re-arrangement amongst tenants concerned in that particular area. In actual fact to put through a re-arrangement scheme it is necessary, without any vote as suggested by the Deputy, to get the consent of the majority of those concerned. Re-arrangement is a voluntary business and it cannot be carried out in any effective way without the consent of the people concerned. I have already referred in the House to the fact that many of these re-arrangement schemes have been held up because we have a couple of recalcitrant people in the area and it was in connection with those people that I suggested an extra inducement would be necessary.

Most western Deputies will be familiar with this problem and, therefore, there is no question of pushing any view of the Land Commission on the majority of the tenants concerned. Each and every tenant must sign for the re-arrangement scheme agreeing to surrender part of his own land for part of the land of his neighbour and giving other facilities such as rights of way and so on, so that an effective scheme can come into being. My difficulty is not with the majority of the tenants concerned in a re-arrangement scheme. It is with one or two odd men out who have held up the advance of their neighbours in some cases for the past 50 years.

Mr. Donnellan

And always will.

And always will, I suppose, unless this House provides a method of dealing with them. I have suggested a couple of methods of dealing with them for the consideration of this House and I hope to take some steps to deal with these recalcitrants.

Deputy Leneghan referred to ex-Deputy Lindsay getting five acres and 25 perches of land from the Land Commission. I want to make it quite clear that that occurred away back in the year 1954 and that I was not the Minister in charge at that time. The then Deputy Lindsay purchased five acres adjoining his father's holding for £10 in cash for the purpose, as alleged then, of erecting a house on it. No house has yet been erected. Senator Lindsay I see classified in the Land Commission file as a landless man and some people in this House have been urging me to deal with landless men. I can assure the House that this is one type of landless man that—

On a point of order, is it in order for the Minister for Lands to refer to the Leas-Chathaoirleach of the Seanad and make an attack on him—

He is stating facts.

This matter was raised in the course of the debate about the then Deputy Lindsay getting five acres of land, and as Deputy Flanagan well knows, the same ex-Deputy Lindsay is a man who used the protective walls of this House as a school for slander.

May I ask again, is it in order for the Minister for Lands to refer indirectly to the fact that the Leas-Chathaoirleach of the Seanad engaged in slanderous activities in this House?

He was referring to a speech made in this House and replying to it.

I am replying to a speech—

He is now the Leas-Chathaoirleach of the Seanad.

He was a landless man for the purpose of getting five acres of land from the Land Commission and I want to put it on record that I was not the head of the department when these five acres——

The Deputy can put down his question—he is very adept at it—and I will give him chapter and verse.

It is a disgrace for the Minister to express himself in that manner about a member of the other House.

If a Minister on this side purchased land, I know where I would get questions from in this House.

You have gone down in my estimation.

I threw out a number of suggestions for consideration by this House for dealing with the grave situation that confronts us in connection with the land structure of this country. I have suggested certain steps that should be taken; I have suggested to the House what I consider viable units that should be created, and that our national land policy should now be reassessed in the light of conditions existing in this day and age.

In relation to the other suggestions I have given to the House, I would like to pose this: I think that what sociologists will agree is one of the greatest difficulties in rural Ireland today and one of the greatest drawbacks to proper land utilisation is the fact that we have an amount of land in the hands of some aged bachelors who will not use it and it is very difficult to deal with that problem. It is a problem, of course—a social problem—a problem largely for our Church leaders, but in so far as the future division of land is concerned, particularly in congested areas——

It is for the Minister for Lands and not for any church authorities.

I am making my effort; I am making suggestions as to how it can be done. Let me make this further suggestion for the consideration of the Deputies who are interested and know something about this question: that in the future allocation of land, particularly in congested areas, I think the time has come when some form of age limit should be specified along with the other tests that are applied by the Land Commission in the division of land. We are dealing with a scarce commodity. If we had some form of age limit, it would have a double purpose. It would induce the older people to part with the ownership of land more quickly to the younger man if they knew that they were going to miss the bus by the fact that an old man of 70 was still the registered owner and if there was land to be divided, that the old man was out. That is a further suggestion in addition to the suggestions I have already made, that might well be considered by those who are interested in this very complex problem with which we are trying to deal.

Mr. Donnellan

A very good idea.

I have dealt with the size of the viable unit, what I think it should be; with what I think should be done in connection with the creation of viable units. This day and age demands in particular a system that will put us in a position at least effectively to compete with those people with whose competition we may be nationally faced in the new picture that is emerging.

Would the Minister care to say something about grants for game farmers?

The Deputy did raise some question about the game movement. I think it would not be right for me to conclude without saying a few words of encouragement to the game councils who are doing very good work. There are special difficulties in this field but I am satisfied that they will, with perseverance along the right lines, be able to solve them. In some quarters, there has been too much emphasis, I think, on the power aspects of organisation. There is no reason why divergencies of view between those bodies could not be amicably settled. I am hopeful that such a situation will be reached and it is also to be hoped that none of the rival personalities will make things more difficult. Game development holds prospects for the common good. There is every reason why all concerned should try to shorten the process by every means available. All schemes received from game councils are being quickly examined in my Department and they will be expedited to the fullest extent so that the councils will know where they stand.

What the Deputy had in mind was, I think, individual game breeders. The way to deal with that proposition is this: if they come up to us as part of a scheme of a local regional game council, they can be so dealt with and if the local game council makes certain arrangements such as those the Deputy has in mind, then these can be included in the general scheme for the whole area.

As I pointed out already, I have left this scheme particularly elastic. Circumstances change from county to county and from area to area. They may be concerned in one area with pheasant, and in another part of the country with grouse, and so on. I want to leave this scheme as flexible as possible so that I can cater for all and sundry. We just ask them to send us in their proposals. We examine them and I deliberately refrain from laying down specific Civil Service regulations about the whole matter. I think it is necessary at this stage of development to provide as much latitude and as much freedom of movement as possible.

Let me conclude, Sir, by expressing my thanks to those Deputies who have helped me with their suggestions. If Deputies have any afterthoughts on any of the points which have arisen or have further ideas on the subject, I shall be exceedingly grateful if they will be good enough to favour me with their views. I should like also to appeal to all rural organisations, particularly those in the west, to let me have the benefit of their views on my suggestions and, indeed, to give me any of their own opinions which may help to solve this very complex national problem.

Motion: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration," by leave, withdrawn.
Vote put and agreed to.
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