Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 6 Dec 1962

Vol. 198 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 23—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st March, 1963, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice including certain other services administered by that Office.—(Minister for Justice.)

Mr. Clinton

I wish to make a few comments on matters which have concerned me as a member of a local authority for the past few years. There is a noticable tendency on the part of many Departments of State to shed some of their responsibilities and to pass them over to local authorities and, in so doing, to pass the cost, or the major portion of the cost of the services in question on to the ratepayers.

I should like to ask the Minister for Justice why it is that he considers the provision of school traffic wardens as a problem apart from other traffic problems, the organisation and the cost of which should be borne by local authorities. In what way is this service related to the work of the local authorities? It is logically to be expected that the traffic problem created by children pouring out of schools, especially in the built-up areas, would be dealt with by the normal traffic authority.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It seems to be a matter for another Minister—the Minister for Education.

Mr. Clinton

Surely it is a traffic question? I am suggesting that it is a traffic problem and that it is being dealt with in the wrong way, that it is being transferred to local authorities. This matter is not the responsibility of the Department of Education. I wish it were. If the Department of Education would accept responsibility for it, I would be quite satisfied. This is a new traffic problem which has arisen in recent years. Dublin County Council resisted for at least two or three years the attempt to make it responsible for this matter in order to try to induce the Minister for Justice to accept it as his problem. On a couple of occasions, we made representations and each time we got the reply that if there was a member of the Garda Síochána available at the time when the children were pouring out of schools, by all means he would be put on the job but that there would be no guarantee and there could be no guarantee. I would ask the Minister to tell the House why he considers that this is not a normal traffic problem.

Another attempt on the part of the Department of Justice to transfer responsibility and expense to the local authority is shown in the position with regard to traffic lights. Fifty per cent. of the cost of traffic lights is borne by the rates. To that extent, the Department of Justice is relieved of responsibility. In that regard, also, I should like an explanation from the Minister because there seems to be no good reason for this position.

During the year, I have asked Questions about a matter that has come under my personal notice. It is the fact that in County Dublin, for considerable periods of each day, Garda stations are not manned. That is a position that should not arise. It is a practice that did not exist some years ago. There are a number of stations that have not a member of the Force in them for a considerable time each day. Should anything happen locally, which would require to be dealt with by a Garda, there is no one in the station to deal with it. Admittedly, the need is not quite as great as it used to be because the squad car is usually available, if people can contact it.

The Leader of this Party has referred at some length to the problem of juvenile delinquency. There has been a good deal of talk about Marlboro House. The main effort should be concentrated on keeping people out of Marlboro House, in ensuring that they never reach it.

A great deal of juvenile delinquency is the result of bad and ill-considered planning. In many of the newly built-up areas, juvenile delinquency is due to the fact that little or no consideration has been given in advance to the provision of recreational facilities, facilities for vocational education, the things which keep children off the street, keep them occupied and attempt to educate them. Opportunities for employment are non-existent. When children reach school-leaving age, they are forgotten. These are the reasons for juvenile delinquency. There is nothing as sad as to see a child heading for Marlboro House or for a sort of prison life. The whole effort should be concentrated on ensuring that they will not appear in these places.

We owe a very great deal to the religious orders and such people who help to keep homes together where there is unemployment and other domestic problems.

Every Deputy has occasion from time to time to make representations to Government Departments. I have had occasion to approach the Department of Justice in regard to various matters. Any representations that I have made to that Department have been dealt with carefully, courteously and expeditiously and I should like to thank the Minister for that courteous treatment.

Mr. McQuillan

This is a very important Estimate and reference has been made to that fact by most of the Deputies who have contributed to it. Quite a lot of the ground has been covered by other Deputies and, although I do not propose to go over in detail the ground already covered, there are a number of points on which I should like to comment. My first point has already been dealt with by other Deputies to a great extent, but although their contributions are helpful to the Minister, I do not think they have really put their finger on the trouble which has arisen in recent times, that is, the real lack of co-operation between the public and the Garda. The Minister cannot deny that that lack of co-operation exists and it is our duty to try to trace the causes of what is a very serious situation at present.

I feel that when the Minister was appointed to the portfolio he now holds, he got off on the wrong foot. He started off by using the heavy hand on the police force. Admittedly the Minister is a young man and he is very anxious to do a good job in his Department, but it will be admitted that he started off on the basis that he was going to show the young members of the Garda that they would have to conform to a certain type of behaviour which he proposed to lay down for them.

This all arose as a result of the dissatisfaction which has been apparent in the ranks of the Force for the past few years concerning pay and allowances, and other conditions which obtained. It was known to the Minister that feeling was very high amongst the younger members of the Force and, in spite of the fact that he should have had his finger on the pulse as a young man himself, and known that the new members of the Garda are recruited from a very high level—they are very well-educated, intelligent and independent-minded young men, with a good background and with a good training—he proceeded to browbeat them—I can only put it that way— and intimidate the members of the Force.

We had the situation in which members of the Garda wished to hold peaceful meetings to discuss their own grievances and on a number of occasions they attempted to assemble, lawfully and peacefully, to discuss their problems and get proposals from various members of the Force for improving their pay and conditions. When they came together to meet, as any group of peaceful citizens in this State are entitled to, they were met with a stone-wall attitude on the part of the Minister. When they went to a hall, as each individual went into the meeting his name was taken. Plain-clothes men were on duty and higher officers of the Garda were detailed: "Mark that particular Guard's cards. Keep an eye on him." Indeed, access was gained to a meeting by resorting to a silly subterfuge by those who wished to find out what the young guards were doing. The resort was that they said they wished to enter the hall in order to examine whether it was safe to hold a meeting there— safe from the point of view of fire precautions and so on. That sort of performance on the part of the Minister's officers was not calculated to bring a feeling of satisfaction among the Garda.

Mr. Haughey

I suppose the Deputy's performance is?

Mr. McQuillan

This must be said. I know it is unpleasant. I have met members of the Garda and I have discussed it with them time and again, and I have waited quite a while before I took the decision. I felt it was necessary. The air must be cleared, no matter who is hurt in the process. The Garda are a body for whom we must have regard and if they fail to protect society and carry out their responsibilities in the manner in which the public expect them to, then a very serious situation is likely to arise. If the Garda have not got the confidence and co-operation of the public, the Minister is powerless to carry out the duties which his——

Mr. Haughey

I suppose it is very valuable to try to turn them against the Minister?

Mr. McQuillan

I am not interested in turning them against the Minister. The Minister knows quite well that the rank and file of the Garda have no time for the Minister. That is the position that arose, due unfortunately to the Minister, as I said, starting off on the wrong foot. We know that the situation was so serious in the Garda that a very highly-placed individual in the city of Dublin, who holds a very responsible position, had to intervene with the Minister and the Force, in order to bring about a state of affairs in which the Minister could save his face and, at the same time, the Garda would not appear to have bowed down to the type of tactics the Minister was using against them. It is a bad day when that type of outside interference is necessary and when that stage is reached between the Minister and his officers. However, I want to make it clear that that was the wrong start and, from that day on, things have not gone well. A number of Deputies suggested that the Guards take the view now that they will take their dissatisfaction with their own conditions out on the public. I do not think the Garda are doing that.

I am going to refer now to the problem of traffic. I have listened to remarks made in this House about the traffic chaos that exists in the city of Dublin and indeed in many cities outside Dublin. I am putting myself in the position of anyone who comes up from the West of Ireland to do some shopping in Dublin. We have to get a picture of what the impressions of such people are when they come into the city. In the past few years, there has been an enormous increase in the number of cars and vehicles of all sorts in Dublin. The city is cluttered up, and so are the approaches to the city, with vehicles.

People coming from rural areas, whether on commercial or any other type of business, wish to park their cars within reasonable distance of where they want to do their business, but at every corner they run across a member of the Garda with his notebook, or if he is not walking up and down taking down the number of cars or putting pink slips on their wind-screens, a squad car is going through the streets observing where cars are parked illegally. What is the reaction to this in any citizen's mind? He takes the view that he is being hounded every hour of the day in the city, whenever he tries to park his car in what appears to be a reasonable place to park. Automatically a prejudice is created against the unfortunate member of the Garda, who is only doing his duty. These Gardaí do not walk out off their own bat; they are instructed in their duties and they are instructed to do this as one of the means of trying to solve congestion here in the city. In my opinion, this is putting the cart before the horse because the only effect is to annoy the Garda Siochána, who have to do an unpleasant task, and the general public who have to suffer the inconvenience involved.

Why is there this present condition in the city of Dublin and elsewhere? Is it not because those responsible in Government, and the City Fathers have, over the years, failed to do their job? I have listened here to all sorts of suggestions, and I have read the same suggestions made outside of this House, and learned of plans made for an extra bridge either under or over the Liffey, underground passages for pedestrians, and the provision of special car parking facilities. What has been done about any of these plans? None has ever, to my knowledge, come to fruition; but every day the number of vehicles on the roads is increasing, and the chief method adopted by those in authority to solve the resultant traffic problems is to send out the Garda Síochána to hound the public about parking regulations. You cannot put a quart measure into a pint pot.

Mr. Haughey

Yes, you can.

Mr. McQuillan

The Minister may be able to, but he is, of course, like the Wonderful Wizard of Oz. If, however, he goes to his former leader, who is a mathematician, I doubt if his former leader will agree with him on that.

The situation is that the Government, the Minister for Justice and his Department, the Department of Local Government, and the City Fathers— God help them—are all putting the cart before the horse. Instead of getting down to work, providing free channels for vehicles, proper parking facilities, places for pedestrians to cross, and so on, they go on talking about plans and regulations. Until they do the things I have mentioned, the congestion in Dublin will continue and it will become worse in the next few years.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

These are matters that would arise on another Estimate.

Mr. McQuillan

The Minister is responsible for the Garda Síochána who are instructed to carry out certain duties with regard to parking and the safety of the public. I shall not refer further to the responsibilities of the Minister for Local Government. I think I have made the position clear.

Last night, Deputy de Valera spoke about cars parked on the roads in the suburbs and roads generally leading into the city. He pointed out the danger to young children who might pop out in front of a parked car and be run down by a car passing out. Having some experience of the situation in the Six Counties, I believe a speed regulation would help, but it would be only a limited help from the point of view of removing the existing danger. Deputy de Valera last night pondered aloud; he expressed the thought publicly here that he had not yet reached the stage where he thought he should agree with preventing these cars being parked on the side of the road, but it was in his mind.

Where will they park? Has the Minister not responsibility to bring pressure on his colleagues in Government to see that the fundamental steps are taken to provide parking facilities, to widen roads, and so forth, before the Minister's police force is asked to carry out regulations impossible of implementation. We cannot blame the Garda Síochána for the position in Dublin. Every time a Garda has to remonstrate with, or criticise a car driver, another friend is temporarily lost to the Force. The result is a lack of co-operation and a feeling of resentment on the part of the general public because of the way in which they are treated, and the only target on which that resentment can be visited is the unfortunate man in blue, who is only doing something he is detailed to do.

The Minister is responsible for the fact that the Garda are being used as a buffer between the public and the Minister. In doing this, the Minister is unfair to the Garda. That is one of the reasons why there is at the moment a lack of co-operation, and it is not the fault of the Garda.

Another matter to which I wish to refer is the use of police dogs. I do not want to say much about this. I detest the idea of dogs being used to discipline or control human beings. I have a personal dislike of the species of dog used, the Alsatian. I know what these dogs are like. This use of dogs can be traced back to the arena in Rome, when wild dogs were set on human beings, to tear them asunder, to provide a spectacle for society. Later in history, dogs were used to track criminals. They were also used in the penal settlements. Many an escaping Irish so-called felon was tracked and savaged by bloodhounds.

The pattern was brought up to date in the past 20 years in the extermination camps in Germany and the concentration camps in Russia. Dogs were used for disciplinary purposes. As a result of the experience gained in these camps, the idea was subsequently adopted of using these dogs to control crowds in certain countries. Ireland is one of the countries which has decided on the use of dogs. I gather certain regulations are laid down for the use of these animals. I disagree with their use, but the Minister has decided and it is, therefore, policy: they are to be used in certain circumstances.

I am not against the idea of the use of these dogs as tracker dogs to track down criminals, but I think there should be a limit to their use. I do not subscribe to the view that they should be used for breaking up crowds or against people, as recently happened, marching in a peaceful procession.

It was a horrible thing to do. I have a personal feeling that the Minister himself believes their use on that occasion was a mistake. If that is the case—and I am giving him credit for believing it is—he should be man enough now to say to the public that it was a mistake. If he did that, he would be doing a lot of good in the interest of co-operation between himself, the public and the Garda.

I am perfectly satisfied that on the occasion when the dogs were used, the conduct of the majority of the Garda was exemplary, but there were one or two individuals whose conduct was anything but exemplary, and we have to-day the position that the Garda as a whole are blamed for the actions of one or two individuals. The people of the city of Dublin are very annoyed at the idea of dogs being used in that fashion, and they are taking it out on the entire police force. If the Minister were using his thinking cap, even at this late stage, he would say it was a mistake, that the one, two or three individuals, members of the Force, who were involved had misbehaved themselves on that occasion, and that they would be reprimanded or disciplined or that an inquiry would at least be held. He would clear the reputation of the entire body of the Garda in the process.

If the Minister took that action, he would bring about a great deal of co-operation and he would restore the confidence of the public in the Garda. The conduct of the majority of the Garda was, as I said, exemplary, and we cannot blame the majority for the conduct or misconduct of one or two. The Minister should take that action even at this stage rather than make the type of mealy-mouthed statement he made to the House. Before I leave that question, I should like to say that I think it was a poor show on the part of certain members of the Oppositions to suggest that anything was planned that night because people were looking for publicity—that they were looking for free publicity, and in order to get it allowed themselves to be bitten by dogs. That is the interpretation I put on the remarks made by a number of Deputies.

I shall say no more about the police dogs except to urge the Minister to hold an inquiry and pin the blame for what happened on the individuals concerned and make it known to the public. If he does that, he will clear the air so far as the Garda and the general public are concerned. This incident has undoubtedly brought about a grave feeling of uneasiness in the public mind, and there is only one way to clear the air. The majority of the Force were not in favour of what happened that night and the Minister should, even at this late stage, clarify the position.

There is another matter upon which I should like to comment. I have done so before, and I have heard other Deputies referring to it. It is the question of guards of honour for judges when they go to the circuit courts or to the High Court. I do not intend to refer to salaries, emoluments or "perks" enjoyed by the people who hold such high office. Undoubtedly, there must be respect for the position they hold, but there is no need for anyone in this House to suggest that we should reach the stage of practically lighting candles in front of them. We are not going to do that for members of the judiciary, high or low. I want to make it quite clear that what counts in this country is justice.

Mr. Haughey

Hear, hear.

Mr. McQuillan

All the paraphernalia and pomp and ceremony have nothing to do with the question of justice. They are a sham and they take away from the value of justice. Justice should not depend on the use of pomp and ceremony.

We have a situation, as I see it regularly in Roscommon when there is a court in session, that anything from 12 to 16 members of the Garda are drafted in from stations up to ten miles outside the town to provide, at whatever time the court is sitting— let us say 10 o'clock—a guard of honour for the judge as he walks into the court. They are lined up in two rows at 10 o'clock in the morning and he walks majestically between them into the court. They have to stay in the town all day. They have to hang around the town—able-bodied men who are fed up with that type of nonsense—and at 5 o'clock when the court adjourns, they assemble again into two ranks and the judge walks through again. That is all done to impress the public that justice is being done.

In my opinion, we have reached the stage when that type of nonsense should be cut out. The cost, even though it is substantial, of bringing in Gardaí who should be doing their other duties, is a minor issue, but the whole thing is demeaning to the general public. The general public are educated and intelligent people. They do not need that type of ceremony to impress them that justice is being done. I accept that the majority of the people are intelligent, but I am afraid the Minister and Governments who have held office over the years do not accept that the public are intelligent, because they use these ceremonial effects to frighten the public.

Inside the court, we have the position that has been referred to here of the gentleman on the bench and counsel attired in the most mediaeval fashion in wigs of all colours and shapes. There again the idea is to impress the public. They are relics of the old times when the court went in session to frighten the ignorant peasantry down the country. They are relics of that age when there was so little respect for the ordinary citizen that it was thought necessary to impress him to tell the truth by this frightening apparition before him of the judge in a wig and a guard of honour for the judge. We have of course a situation at Christmas time when a man dresses up as Santa Claus. That is done to make children happy, and no one minds it. It is a little game; but when we are dressing up our judges in a similar fashion, not to make the people happy, but to frighten them, that is a different kettle of fish.

It is time that an end was put to the guards of honour and to the pomp and ceremony attaching to the dispensing of justice. The Minister knows that in the country which he and his colleagues are always quoting, America, there is very little of this type of nonsense. It is not too soon to bring about a change here because the mentality displayed by the Minister— and I am not saying this personally to this Minister; I am referring to other Ministers for Justice—is that the ordinary citizen will not have respect for the law, unless this pomp and ceremony is indulged in. That is an insult to the intelligence of the ordinary man in the street.

I do not intend to delay the House any further. I ask the Minister seriously to consider the question of bringing about co-operation between the Garda and the Department. If he gives serious consideration to the point I made, he will see an opening there. If he is not prepared to do that, there is only one alternative left and I do not think it fair at this stage for me to suggest it.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.