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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 21 Feb 1963

Vol. 200 No. 2

Government White Paper on Incomes and Output: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Dáil Éireann condemns the Government for the failure of its policies as confirmed by the terms of its own White Paper. —Deputy Dillon.

I shall take only a few minutes longer. In my opinion, if the Government were defeated and there were an election and if, as a result, a Coalition Government were returned, they would have to do exactly the same thing the Government are now doing, but the great difference would be that whereas the present Government are composed of one Party and can decide without consulting others, a Coalition Government faced with such circumstances would find it very difficult to make a decision because in all such things, they would have to consult groups or individuals who want to play to the gallery and it would not, therefore, be in the interests of the country that there should be an election or change of Government at this time.

That is a fact of which the Opposition are very well aware. I do not think anyone in the House seriously wants a change of Government. That being the case, and the Opposition admitting in their own cute way that the Government are doing the right thing, Opposition Deputies should not vote against the Government because they will be voting against the Government on an issue which they hope they will not win. It amounts to that. In my opinion, the Government's action here will go a long way to preserve the measure of employment that exists, to preserve the status quo, whereas if things get out of hand, there will be, as Dr. Browne pointed out, wholesale unemployment here. The people who will get the worst of that are those on social benefits, those with small incomes. They would be the worst hit by an increase in the cost of living. They would be the losers.

I hold it is best that things should remain as they are. It is best that the Government be given this chance of trying to control a very ugly situation. Let me say at once that I do not accept that this action of the Government stops the trade unions from demanding any increase they feel is necessary, but I would ask the Government to try to ensure that there is no increase in prices while they are trying to prevent any further increase in wages. I expected an increase in prices after the eighth round and I would expect an increase after the ninth, 10th or any future rounds. That is to be expected, but we already have had the effects of the eighth round increase. All I am asking is that the Taoiseach should do something to ensure there are no further increases in prices.

With that I shall resume my seat and go in and vote for the Government. I shall make no apologies for it because if other Deputies had a sense of the rights of the matter, they would do the same thing and not be playing up this situation of crisis which they know damn well the Government are trying to beat.

One of the interesting features of this debate has been the situation in which Fine Gael have found themselves. For various tactical reasons I need not go into, the only possible line of approach here for Fine Gael was in the form of the motion they put down, that is, to attack the Government's general economic policy and allege that the White Paper was a panic measure which had to be issued because of the Government's mismanagement. The significant thing about this debate has been that the Leader of the Opposition made only what I think could fairly be described as a passing reference to the Government's economic policy and certainly did not mount any large-scale attack. The Leader of the Labour Party did make a reasoned case for the point of view he was putting forward, but he omitted a number of factors and, I think, misunderstood and misrepresented certain others.

The factors that must be taken into account in any consideration of wage increases are what has happened in this country in the past in regard to wage increases and what has happened in regard to the failure of a Government at any particular time to deal with the situation where you had wages and prices chasing each other and productivity not catching up with them. The important thing is that under this Government there have been two rounds of wage increases which represented a real increase in wages as distinct from catching up on the cost of living. The sixth and seventh rounds were the only ones which represented a genuine advance in the standard of living of the workers. The very interesting thing about them is that they caused virtually no increase in the cost of living. The reason that happened was that they were within the increase in productivity of the country as a whole.

That is something I believe the workers have understood and appreciated. They know, as we know, that it is much better to maintain your present rate of wages and have a stable economic situation than to get a nominal increase in wages. When I say "nominal", I mean those which, in effect, may disimprove their position. As we all know, the real sufferers in this type of situation are the people on fixed incomes, particularly pensioners.

The Government on this occasion have taken action to inform the public of the dangers which might arise. They have taken action in time. We have an example from the not so distant past of the failure of a Government to take action in time, allowing the situation to drift and then being forced to take measures they did not want to take, which while remedying the financial situation, caused, at the same time, grave hardship and suffering to many thousands of our people. This Government are determined, in so far as they can, to avoid that situation. They are taking action now. Deputy Sherwin said there was no crisis. So also, I think, did Deputy Mullen and a number of other Deputies. They are perfectly right. There is no crisis. The Government are taking action in time to prevent a crisis.

The Leader of the Labour Party referred to the "mere 3,000 words" of the White Paper and said it seemed very little in which to deal with such a major aspect of public policy. I would suggest to him it is a good thing that we should keep official documents brief, provided they are clear. This White Paper was brief, but it was clear. The trouble seems to me to have been that a number of people rushed into print in regard to it without understanding what was involved or, perhaps, without even having read it but relying on newspaper versions of it.

Deputy Dillon said we had documents one, two, three and four. Other Deputies suggested the same thing— that the Taoiseach and the Ministers who have spoken have been back-pedalling or altering the meaning of the White Paper. I have listened to most of this debate and I have not heard anybody specify in what way any of the speeches they referred to have altered in any way the meaning of the White Paper, which seems to me to be perfectly clearly worded. Nothing has been said that is not said in the White Paper.

A number of Deputies, including Deputy J. A. Costello, referred to the desirability of a national wages policy —something we all agree with. But what exactly does a national wages policy mean? Does it not mean you work out some formula whereby increases in wages and salaries will be related to the condition of the economy? I would presume that, subject to certain exceptions, it would in the main be related to an increase in productivity. In any event, a national wages policy certainly visualises an agreed formula whereby increases will be fixed.

If you have that, you then have to consider another point made by Deputy Costello in regard to civil servants. He talked about the introduction of conciliation and arbitration machinery. He said what was proposed in the White Paper was an interference with or a suspension of that machinery. If you have an agreed wages policy, the formula involved must surely visualise that in certain circumstances, if the economy is not doing very well, there will be no increases in wages when looked for? That would certainly involve some kind of interference with the conciliation and arbitration machinery. Otherwise, there is no point in talking about a wages policy. You are back to where you started with a free-for-all, which is admitted by all sides not to be in the interests of the nation.

I know from personal experience— and this has been confirmed by Deputy Mullen in his speech here—that in recent months a number of trade union officials have been pressed by some of their members to put forward claims for increases in wages. These trade union officials have persuaded their members not to put these claims forward. I suggest that was done because these officials knew it was not in the interest of their members that they should push wages too high—far ahead of productivity. They knew that in the long run their members would lose if that were done. That is all the Government are telling us in this White Paper. They are trying to put across to the people that if you push too far and too fast with wages, it is the wage-earner who will lose more than anybody else.

But we want to lead and you are driving.

Some trade union officials took that attitude, I know, and Deputy Mullen has confirmed it. If that policy was right then, why has it suddenly become wrong since it was stated in the White Paper——

Because we will not allow the big stick to be waved at us.

Because I suggest there is an overwhelming temptation to play politics with this, and that is the answer.

It is always the answer from the Fianna Fáil point of view.

If it is Fianna Fáil's attitude on certain things that they play politics, it is open to the Opposition or to the Government as it may be to make the case. I am making the case——

Prove the case.

I think I have proved it.

Just saying it is not proving it.

Tell us about the Bearna Baoghail? Ní thuigeann tusa é sin.

We have had wild statements which implied that a standstill order was being brought in. In actual fact, what the White Paper does is to set out certain reasons which nobody has tried to controvert except, perhaps, Deputy Corish who did make certain observations on the economic arguments involved, but apart from him, I do not think anybody else did so. It sets out those arguments to show why wages should not be ahead of productivity and, as a logical conclusion, it says that the Government are not going to take the lead in starting a new round of wage increases which would lead people in other employment to feel justified in claiming wage increases.

The wording of it is such that it does not preclude, for instance, people who have not yet got the benefit of the eighth round from having their wages adjusted, nor people who in the interval find they are doing more difficult or more onerous kinds of work from being compensated for it. I should like to ask the Leader of the Labour Party when replying, to answer this question: would he say, yes or no, are the Labour Party in favour of another round of wage increases at this time?

Deputy Dillon's main objection to the White Paper, I think, was that it proposed to hold wages steady but not profits. That is a very attractive argument which appeals to one's sense of justice and fair play but let us examine it a little further. Is not the position as regards industrial profits— which is what we are discussing here, I think—in this country such that every business has found that its margin of profit per unit has had to be cut down because of increasing competition and that, in fact, increases in profits may be achieved virtually only by increases in efficiency and productivity? If that is so, I suggest the economic system itself provides the same check on profits as it sought to apply to wages.

The Government have been accused of singling out the public service to hold down wages. What would be the position if the Government did not do that and another round of wage increases started? Would we not have Deputies and many others accusing the Government of failing to do their duty because they were giving the lead in starting another round of wage increases which would do the workers harm? The Government have also been accused of failing to consult with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions before issuing the White Paper. If they had done so, we should have been told here that the Government were failing to govern and trying to saddle other parties with their own responsibilities. The Government have carried out their responsibilities and I do not think it would be fair to the ICTU or anybody else for the Government to say: "We have consulted this person or that person." This is a decision the Government must make and stand over.

Deputy Cosgrave made the kind of speech I thought Deputy Dillon would make. He attacked the Government's general economic policy. I want to join issue with him on one or two points, one being his reference to the cost of living as having increased sharply over the past six years. If you examine the figures, you find that the increase, in the main, occurred only in the past 12 or 18 months. Prior to that, there was virtually no change in the cost of living. That is of great significance because there had been two wage rounds which did not cause an increase in the cost of living. Obviously, those two wage rounds were worth more to the workers and salary earners than any other wage rounds we have had. That is the situation Fianna Fáil want to see. Fianna Fáil want to see the economy expanding and the wage and salary earners sharing in the increased benefit to the economy. Nobody was more pleased than Fianna Fáil to see the workers getting these increases without damage to the economy, in which case they did a real benefit. We want to see that continue and that is why this White Paper has been issued, to ensure that in future the workers will be able to get these genuine increases and not nominal increases which do more harm than good to the workers themselves.

Deputy Cosgrave said there were more people in employment in 1956 than now. I think he meant 1955 because former members of the Coalition Government always like to pick 1955 as their reference year for reasons which they have never explained. I think we need no explanation: the reason is pretty obvious.

There is a problem in dealing with this question. If you are to relate wages to productivity, how do we deal with people whose productivity cannot be measured? And there are many people like that.

The judges?

There are very many other people whose productivity cannot be measured.

Even the Chairman of the Labour Party.

Or the health inspectors.

I suggest that one reasonable way would be to relate wages to the overall average increase of productivity in the economy as a whole. This can be done and everybody can benefit from it.

Deputy Dr. Browne, I fear, is completely out of date as regards the basis on which wage increases have been sought. He said that increases were sought on the basis of an increase in the cost of living or deterioration in the condition of workers. In fact, the grounds for application for wage increases for the past three rounds have been that the workers were entitled to an increase in the standard of living, that the economy as a whole had improved and they were entitled to share in that. Perfectly legitimate grounds, but the grounds were not that the cost of living had increased or that there had been a deterioration in the conditions of the workers.

Deputy Dr. Browne also tried to argue that the Government had been talking about the tremendous success of the Programme for Economic Expansion but that this White Paper gave the lie to that claim. It seems to me that he missed the whole point. It is because of the very success of the Programme for Economic Expansion that we have been able to have these genuine increases in real wages in recent years. It is because we want to be sure that that continues, because we are confident that the economy, properly handled, will continue to expand and the workers will be entitled to share in the increase, and it is because we want to ensure that they will get that benefit, that we are endeavouring to point out to the public, to the workers, and the country as a whole, the danger of pushing too fast and that in the long run, the workers can get a lot more by having steady wages with steady prices.

Deputy Dr. Browne, of course, as was to be expected, also offered us socialism as the panacea for all our ills. So far as this debate is concerned, I should like to point out that socialist countries have had this problem with which we are dealing in the White Paper as well as capitalist countries. It is an economic problem and has nothing to do with the political or social position in the country. It is a plain elementary economic fact that you have to work for what you get and if you take more than you actually earn, you can end up in bankruptcy. It is as simple as that.

That is cod.

The point made by Deputy Dr. Browne, and I think also by Deputy Corish, that productivity in fact depends on management and not on the workers——

Wait a moment. I do not want to be misquoted. I said "not entirely on the workers". I said that the main responsibility lay with management.

I accept that. I notice that Deputy Corish when he made the two points in different parts of his speech referred, in one part to productivity and increased efficiency in recent years and said that the workers were entitled to credit for that and to be paid for it, but in another part when talking about further increases in productivity, he said the main responsibility lay on management. He cannot have it both ways.

I think you can have it both ways.

It would require a much more detailed study of this to work out——

(Interruptions.)

I do not think he is right but I think Deputy Corish in what he says now, and I accept that he said it before, is probably correct to a large extent, that when you reach a certain pitch of efficiency, beyond that, increases in productivity will depend on efficient management and perhaps better plant and equipment and so on. That is largely true but I will say that there are still large sectors of our economy in which increases in productivity could be got solely by the efforts of the workers. However, I am taking, by and large——

You are not suggesting they are lazy fellows?

I am not, but I have heard of restrictive practices. I am suggesting that Deputy Corish is substantially correct in what he said but let us examine what is the result. Suppose that it is true that management is primarily responsible for increased productivity, does it follow that you say the workers have nothing to do with it, they are entitled to be paid?

No. The Deputy is trying to make it as simple as the White Paper.

We are dealing with an economic fact. If management is not doing its duty in increasing earnings, that is one point. You cannot deal with that by increasing the workers' wages. For that reason, I am suggesting that even if it is true that increases in productivity depend to a large extent on management, that point is not relevant to this discussion because, as I say, you cannot remedy that point by increasing wages. As I see it, this situation is one which calls for a certain amount of discipline on the part of our people. We know that we will have to increase our industrial exports or we will get nowhere. We can increase them only if we are competitive. What is required is a sense of discipline and of teamwork, not only on the part of the workers and the management, but on the part of politicians. The country's interests require us to exercise a certain amount of discipline and restraint and if we do this, the whole country stands to benefit and if not, the whole country, but particularly the workers, stand to lose.

Deputy Carroll.

On a point of order, is the Ceann Comhairle aware that Labour has offered all day long without one member being called?

Perhaps the Ceann Comhairle would read the score?

The Fine Gael Party also have a grievance. We had only four speakers.

Is it just——

There have been six Government speakers, four Fine Gael speakers, two Labour speakers, one National Progressive Democrat, and two Independents.

There have been seven supporters of the Government.

There are two more speakers to come.

Deputy Sherwin was also called and clearly—

Deputy Sherwin is included by me as an Independent.

He is not; he is tied to the Fianna Fáil Party.

He is as conscious of his security as any member of the Fianna Fáil Party.

There are also two more speakers to come.

He is a clear supporter of the Government.

Deputy Carroll seconded an amendment to the motion and reserved his right to speak.

Does an amendment need a seconder?

Of course it does.

Might not the situation be met if the Government and the Opposition decided, in fairness to all Deputies who wish to speak, to extend the time in which to speak until 7 o'clock or 8 o'clock?

The answer is no.

We have already lost two days.

You have no legislation ready. You are delighted with these debates.

Could that be considered?

I must ask if the House agrees with the Ceann Comhairle's ruling——

Of course.

——having called on six Government speakers, four Fine Gael, two Labour, one National Progressive Democrat, and two Independents and ignoring the Labour Party to-day? Is that fair?

The Deputy can challenge the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle by a motion. I invite him to do so.

I think it is most unfair.

As I said before to-day, I have never been accused of being other than brief. I want to point out that I waited here for five and a half hours yesterday without leaving my seat and on every occasion I attempted to get the privilege of the floor. From 10.30 a.m. to-day, I waited until just before Questions, when Deputy Sherwin was talking and it was evident I could not get in until after Questions. Then I left the House —the only time I left the House. I am sure that the greatest promoter of entertainment in the world would require to have very excellent entertainment to keep a person entertained for five and a half hours without a momentary respite. I understand that if you do take a momentary respite, you lose your place in the queue.

When I read the White Paper and got to paragraph 21, I immediately decided that I would oppose it by every means I could, that I would oppose the Government in every way because I felt, having had representations made to me, in one case by members of the Dublin Health Authority, that there was justification on their side and none on the Government's side. However, I have ben informed that the health inspectors of the Dublin Health Authority, of which I am a member, were notified this morning that the increase was granted.

Notified yesterday.

Yesterday—I am sorry. Possibly they just got it this morning.

What was the cause of the delay?

Pharaoh relented— very noble indeed.

I was going to ask what was the cause of the hurry.

Very good.

I was looking at it in a different way because it took away the main opposition I had to the Government. I read this morning in the Irish Times that “Lemass” offers to meet employers and unions on wages and will discuss any practical alternative to the White Paper. I would not say that I have sufficient analytical powers to know what is a practical alternative but I will astonish the House when I say that the suggestion made by Deputy Cosgrave this morning and made yesterday by Deputy Corish appeals to me, that is, a conference of employers and employees, such as was so successful over 20 years ago when the Taoiseach was Minister for Industry and Commerce and which negotiated the first agreed increase during the war years. Great hardship was prevented to the building community in Dublin by the setting up of the Dublin Area Joint Council, of which I was a member representing employers. The sooner a commission is set up to deal with wages, the better, if it is not that Dublin Area Joint Council, a similar council to it. The first opportunity I get, whether by motion or otherwise, I will put forward the suggestion that the ninth round be immediately entertained.

I have not been impressed by all the statistics that have been adduced. It must be understood that the amount of money the Government have expended in grants for the erection of factories would in some degree offset the figures we heard so much about yesterday.

Deputy Dunne used the word "incentive". I do not think that word is agreeable to the representatives of the trade unions, unless there is a change of policy. Deputy Dr. Browne gave figures in regard to wages. May I suggest to Deputy Dr. Browne that 36 years ago in Dublin a craftsman had less than 80/- a week and if he were staying in digs, he would pay from 27/- to 30/-, that is, more than one-third of his wages. In the States at the same time, a man in the same craft would be earning 77 dollars a week and would be paying less than one-sixth on his digs. These comparisons are odious. When coming into this House, I often say: "Will I say a few prayers that I will not hear too much about 1956 and 1957?" I mention that because a Deputy today very sensibly said that we should forget the mistakes of others and proceed. In 1847, there was a Famine in this country. I never hear anyone saying anything about that. The amount of time wasted in this House in attributing blame and seeking plaudits amazes me.

Yesterday the Leader of the Fine Gael Party, speaking in the wonderful way that he has, with beautiful oratory, gesticulations, finger-pointing, paid such wonderful tributes to Labour and to the representatives of Congress that I believe that if the suggestion made by Deputy Cosgrave this morning is implemented, the ills of the Government and of the working classes will be taken care of impartially.

The Labour Court have done a great deal of good. I am accepting the fact that decisions taken by the Labour Court or in course of being made are not in any way affected by paragraph 21 of the White Paper. I accept the view expressed in the Irish Times leader that the Taoiseach is not using the axe. Maybe he has dropped the axe and does not believe it is a good thing. I do not know. If there were any suggestion of a wage-freeze or a standstill order and if it meant an election to-morrow, as stated by Deputy Dunne yesterday, I would vote against it.

The only speaker to-day who said he did not like to delve into political discussion was the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands and he was the only one who seemed to bring out that antagonism that should never exist in here. Even if I only went to Synge Street, I still believe that my interpretation of paragraph 21 was correct and, if it was correct, I would have undoubtedly to oppose the people who were inaugurating it, irrespective of consequences.

I believe that the sooner the Government subsidise to the extent of £1 million or £2 million—I do not mind what it is—the agricultural labourers, the sooner we will curtail emigration. If it is decided to build a church in some townland, a Dublin firm or a Cork firm or a Limerick firm go to area and must pay the standard rate of wages. What is the agricultural labourer getting?

He got no round. That was not mentioned in the past two days.

When the Deputy was out buying socks and underwear, he was mentioned.

I have listened for the past two days to the members on the Front Bench of the Government trying to defend this White Paper. I have listened to them perform oratorical gymnastics of all kinds in order to explain away this kind of document which is nothing more or less than a positive proposition to bring about a standstill order in wages and salaries. It is, in my opinion, one of the most despicable anti-workingclass pieces of legislation ever to come into this House. We could well understand a standstill order during an emergency when every section of the community would be obliged to accept certain disciplines, but that this kind of thing should be attempted in peacetime is completely unjustifiable. It is no wonder that the Irish Congress of Trade Unions reacted so violently against this proposition. To suggest that it is anything other than a standstill on wages and salaries is to try to cod the people. The worker who interprets this document knows it is nothing less than a standstill order on his wages, and the worker who interprets it as anything less than that is a fool; and the trade union leader who asserts it is not a standstill on wages and salaries is, in my opinion, a fraud.

The significant feature of this biased document is that the workers are being blamed for and saddled with the responsibility of the present predicament in which the Government find themselves. The Government seek to place the blame for our present economic difficulties at the feet of the workers of this country. They allege they are not producing enough. They allege wages have outstripped production and, because of that, the economy is in a state of imbalance. At the same time, profits may go unbridled and there is no attempt of any kind to restrict prices.

This is a clear indication, to me at any rate, that one section of the community is being asked to make the supreme sacrifice. The pause is being enforced on workers and salary earners: "Thus far shalt thou go and no further", the Government are, in fact, saying to these categories of workers. When a Government take up that kind of attitude, and even give a hint of an intention to impose a wages pause, that is a signal, a clear indication, to the Labour Court—not merely to employers and State and semi-State bodies, but to the Labour Court—to resist pay claims, irrespective of however just and legitimate those claims may be.

The Labour Court has got its instructions from the Taoiseach and, irrespective of however just and legitimate the claims coming before the Labour Court may be on behalf of these categories of workers, the answer will be a persistent and determined "No". It would be a pity, it would be a great tragedy, if the Labour Court, which is supposed to be a fair and impartial tribunal for deciding wage claims and bringing harmony and co-operation into the industrial field, should be used as a mere tool by any political Party. If the workers of this country lose confidence in and respect for the Labour Court, and if the attitude of that court is to acquiesce in the dictates of any Government, then I suggest the outcome will be the law of the jungle; strikes will be the order of the day.

The claims of many categories of workers, including those in State and semi-State bodies, are at present before the Labour Court for consideration. I was pleased to hear the announcement by the Minister for Finance that the award in relation to health inspectors was being conceded. That is welcome news. This category of workers, at any rate, has not been caught up in the mesh of this wage-freeze.

The Deputy will appreciate that at 3.45 p.m. the mover of the motion will be called on, or a Deputy designated by him, to speak.

That means I must conclude now.

I sometimes ask myself what is wrong with this Parliament. The Dáil is the Parliament of this country and, instead of applauding and rejoicing in the revolting sentiments enunciated here today by Deputy Sherwin, every Deputy, no matter what side he sits on, should, I think, repudiate such sentiments without delay. It is loathsome to hear a member of our own House proclaim we all got here by deceiving the people and that we all known that is the only method of approaching the Irish electorate.

I think it is revolting to hear a Deputy claim to come in here and flagrantly betray the confidences of friends whom he meets in the corridors and whom, he alleges, speak to him. I do not believe a word of his reported consversation; but, even if it were true, it is degrading that we should sit and rejoice at the betrayal of every decent standard associated with our public life by a buffoon, who is not ashamed to drag the reputation of Oireachtas Éireann through the mud for the edification of every scandalmonger in the world who wants to deride us.

I do not think any Deputy should be called a buffoon.

Very well, Sir. I withdraw the word: an utterly irresponsible person, who would scandalize and slander our institutions for the edification of sensationalists who rejoice to hear ill of them. It is bad enough to read that kind of slime in the publications of our traditional enemies without having it smathered all over us by our colleagues. To me, perhaps the most revolting aspect of that transaction was that the Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party seemed to rejoice in the performance. They ought to hang their heads for shame at their own reaction, and they ought to hang their heads for shame for the support on which they depend for their survival.

I listened to Deputy Colley in this debate, and I hope I do not compromise his public image if I say that I find it hard to believe that his contributions are not made in sincerity and with the best information at his disposal. I believe Deputy Colley is persuaded that there has been no dramatic rise in the cost of living in this country, but he is sufficiently astute in such matters to appreciate the significance of the actual increase from 135 to 157 that has taken place in the cost of living of our people in the past five years.

Now, it is illusory to assume that that has no significance in the lives of ordinary people, whether they live on the land or whether they are wage earners. It certainly has, and it certainly does create very material difficulties for people with large families, living on modest incomes. I think it is improvident, to say the least of it, for a responsible and careful Deputy, such as I take Deputy Colley to be, to suffer himself to be persuaded that the known facts are not true.

May I interrupt for one moment? The point I was making was that the main portion of the increase took place in the past 12 or 18 months.

No. I think that is a mistake. I direct the Deputy's attention to these figures and I advise him to study the Statistical Abstract, and I think he will find he has deceived himself. I am bound to say also I appreciate, from the source from which it came, the fact that Deputy Colley, on examining the arguments put forward, said he was obliged to confess that the argument from the Opposition that this White Paper's fundamental defect was that it made no adequate proposal for equality of sacrifice was an argument he found hard to answer.

That is not what he said.

I could not ask a more eloquent comment on the case than has been made from this side of the House.

It is a gross misquotation.

I leave that to the printed record of what was said. If my record of what he said is true, it reflects credit on Deputy Colley——

No, it is not true.

——because it is manifest that there is no equality of sacrifice proposed. It is that failure to propose equality of sacrifice which has shaken the foundation of confidence in the country at the present time.

Nonsense.

It is all very well for Deputy Booth to pontificate from his seat on what is and what is not true. The evidence of what we have heard throughout the country is that that is what the people feel and I think the people are right in that. I want to remind the House that not only does that defect in these proposals render these proposals bad but it has done an irremediable injury to the spirit of co-operation that was growing and that ought to exist in the presence of a national emergency.

Once that damage is done, it is extremely difficult to repair it. Confidence is an elusive thing. It does not matter whether it is confidence in the currency or confidence in a national effort. It is one of those things most easily shaken but desperately difficult to restore. If the people once get it into their heads that this is a tentative return to the wage-freezing policy of 1947, we are faced with a protracted industrial war and I warn this House that that would be a disaster for the social and economic life of this country.

Everybody knows that I am an employer of labour and have been all my life. I dealt with trade unions in my personal capacity and as a Minister of State and I have stated quite openly and frankly what my experience of them has been, tough as it is their duty to be in the defence of their members' interests, but, whether as a Minister or as an employer, I found the trade unions reasonable, honourable and responsible. That is not to say that there is no employer or no trade unionist in this country who does not from time to time kick over the traces and go cracked. You will find them on the right and you will find them on the left. However, in the main, we are entitled to claim not only for the edification of our own people but of the world that there is no country in the world today with a more responsible trade union organisation and unless we are able to say that, we can throw our hats at any prospect of foreign investment in Irish industry. I say that as an employer of 40 years' experience and as a politician of 30 years' standing and I would not hesitate to say it abroad to people who asked my opinion as to what the prospects were in this country.

Let us not act in this House in a way calculated to encourage the extremists who want to shake that tradition, who want to say to a responsible trade union movement: "You are not tough enough." Let us not create a situation by anything we do in this House which puts the responsible trade union leaders in the position that if they do not promote industrial strife, they lose the confidence of their members. Let us rather say that responsible trade union leadership in this country can get results not only from employers but from the Government and from the Oireachtas and the only thing that will consolidate resistance is irresponsibility either on the employers' side or on the trade unions' side. What we are doing with this kind of codology is putting up a challenge to the trade union movement which need never have been made and manoeuvring them into the position of either declaring war á l'outrance or of being derided by the troublemakers on their left, as some of us have troublemakers on our right, who say: “Unless you fight and fight and fight, you are letting down our side.”

That is the real evil at the root of this White Paper. What a different situation we would have here to-day if employers and the trade unions had been called in and the Taoiseach had put his cards on the table or even sent for me as Leader of my Party and the Leader of the Labour Party and said: "There is my problem. I am giving you the information. If you do not want to express a view or if you are not prepared to help, there will be no hard feelings. We shall debate it in the Dáil." If we had sent for the trade unions and said: "Here is a problem: increased consumption out of proportion to our available resources," I would imagine the trade unions would say, as I would say: "If you say we are in a crisis, if increased consumption is the problem, must we not look at every aspect of consumption? Must we not look at wages, salaries, profits, dividends, bank credit, hire purchase, each and every source of excessive consumption so that if we are to go to the people to ask them to exercise restraint in wage negotiations, we can say to them that we are going to ask for the same restraint from the bankers, from powerful and wealthy corporations. We are going to ask for the same restraint from those who want to engage in hire-purchase contracts by anticipating their own incomes. We are going to ask for the same restraint from anybody who contemplates unnecessary borrowing from banks. We are going to say to the banks they can provide abundant credit for productive enterprises of any kind but that they should consider well any proposal for borrowing which involves consumption for consumption's sake."

How different the atmosphere of this House would be today if that had been the approach. Some people say: "Why did you not all recognise that without being told?" I shall tell you: because in last December we were, as we thought, on the threshold of vital negotiations in Brussels and in those circumstances, all of us were holding our fire, trying to put the best face on everything without for a moment seeking to deceive objective external observers but not over-painting any economic problems that we felt were abroad. Therefore, I very tentatively directed the attention of the Government to the fact that there was appearing in the first nine months of the year a very serious trade gap, that external assets and joint stock banks did not seem to be moving in the same direction, that unemployment seemed to be rising, that there were certain economic indicators appearing which I thought gave rise to anxiety, and here is what the Taoiseach said in public in reply to the debate at column 1469, Volume 198, of the Official Report of 13th December, 1962:

Deputy Dillon expressed concern about the adverse trade balance. He talked about the gap that exists between the value of our visible imports and the value of our invisible exports. It is true that the over-all picture at the end of this year, when it will be possible to determine it in February or March next year, will probably show some deficit on our external payments but, in so far as that deficit has not involved, as the Deputy found out, any diminution of our external reserves, it is not a matter of great concern. Our economy is in a healthy state.

That is the last official declaration we have had from the head of the Government as to what the situation is.

The next we have is the White Paper. That is the conduct of a panicstricken man and the reason he is in a panic is that his own Government are divided. He has led them solidly in the directition of EEC. That has blown up under his feet and some of his own colleagues are now saying: "Yah, I told you so." His reaction to that situation is that he is now going to act the strong man, the bull in the china shop. The danger of acting the strong man, of throwing your weight about, of being the bull in the china shop is that it can have just the same reaction inside our own society as it has had on the continent of Europe.

Quite apart from the breakdown of the Brussels negotiations the bull in the china shop tactics have shaken the confidence of the nations of Europe in the ability of the members of EEC to integrate the performance of one nation with another without federation. That is the great injury. It is not the postponement of the entry of Great Britain, of Ireland or Denmark or any of the other countries. The great injury is the shaking of the confidence of the smaller nations in the whole possibility of a group of nations coming together without federation and working together in the common interest. The little countries are beginning to ask if it was all an illusion. The danger here is that this bull in the china shop attitude will call up the 1947 ghosts of a wage freeze. That is what it is doing.

You may tell them that this is not what the Government mean. In all conscience I cannot tell them that. I honestly believe that if Fianna Fáil had a Parliamentary majority in this House that is what we would have got. I believe that is what the Taoiseach believes in. I believe he thinks that, if he had the power to do it, that is the way to run the country and he shares that illusion with another man in Europe who thinks he is great but whose greatest illusion is that belief, because he is great about the proximate things but is neglecting the things that really matter.

What matter in Ireland is that we should all agree that our society is too small to contain two nations. I intervened here today to claim the right of Deputy Dr. Browne to speak for an hour and a half. We are almost unique in Dáil Éireann of all the nations in the world in having protected the right of unlimited debate although we may be sometimes tempted to throw away a great right like that in vengeance against somebody whose sentiments we abhor. I defended Dr. Browne's right to speech here although I loathe what he had to say and I loathe his whole devious attitude and his devious attempt to prove that in this, our country, we segregrate the rich from the poor. I loathe the whole purpose of his argument that Deputies on all sides of this House are traitors to the fundamental tenets of the Christian faith that he and we share. If he believes that is a feature of our society today I want to tell him that we do not believe it.

I hope our motion passes because if it does the Government must go. Our object in putting down the motion was to put out the Government because we believe that to be the only effective solution to the situation into which they have led us. If our motion does not pass we will vote for the Labour motion or any other motion that will put the Government out. That is our purpose and that is the right solution to the present situation. Let there be no illusion about that. Some people have said that we did not concentrate sufficiently on the White Paper but that is only a very small portion of the darkness into which Fianna Fáil led us from the day they announced that they claimed the right to go it alone.

People tell us that we should not dwell on the past. We cannot forget the past and we should not forget the past. We have learned lessons from our experiences of the past. I would agree that we should try to forgive the past but this is not the first time that Fianna Fáil have gone it alone. They went it alone into a civil war; they went it alone into an economic war and now they want to go it alone into a war of industrial disputes. We did not go with them in the last two wars and we will not go with them in this one. The first two wars into which Fianna Fáil went alone did damage to this country from which it has not yet recovered.

We have papered up the cracks of the civil war and we have tried to exchange mutual forgiveness for it. I recognise that some people still feel that there may be nothing to forgive on either side but I am glad that we have tried to exchange mutual forgiveness. However, I think it is very hard to forgive the more recent outrage, the economic war. Let us not forget that there are people poor in this country who never knew poverty before because of that economic war. Do not let us go into a third war designed to split our people into new fragments. We do not intend to do that and we intend to take the proper Parliamentary steps open to us to prevent it happening.

If the only way to do that is to bring about the downfall of the Government and to have a general election, then that must be done. What politician likes a general election? It is hard, arduous, tedious, an immense strain on every one of us. Nobody likes a general election. Nobody likes the hustings; nobody likes the tremendous strain and anxiety of the fight. But it is one thing not to like it and another thing to be afraid. No man can be brave until he has first been afraid. No one will accuse Deputy Sherwin of an excess of courage, whatever about the preliminary qualification. I do not want a general election. Nobody wants it but I am prepared for it if it is the only way to get Fianna Fáil out of office. It is the only constitutional way at our disposal to shift them and to give our people a chance to substitute a different Government.

I have asked the Taoiseach to define what the White Paper means. We have had a surfeit of definitions since it was published, not including the Sunday definition unprecedented in this country's history. But does anyone yet know what the Taoiseach and his colleagues really want? I do not, but I have a shrewd suspicion of what they would like to have.

I know, as Deputy John A. Costello so eloquently pointed out yesterday, the perennial danger to Governments who get advice from impeccable sources, from economists who think they know it all. My God, have we not had enough experience in this country of the bureaucrats who despise our feeble efforts and long for the chance to come down into the arena to show us how it all should be done but who, having come down from their ivory tower, are torn to pieces and scattered to the four winds because they did not even know the first elements of politics—people who left their scientific libraries and laboratories believing they knew all the answers but completely unconscious of the two-thirds of every iceberg that floats below the tide.

We are the people chosen by the electorate of this country to run this country and it is here from time to time that we put into practice the right advice, the practical advice, the advice calculated to get the best results without the danger of getting confusion and chaos. It is only when we lose our heads and our confidence that we come in here, tripping, with White Papers written in the ivory towers. It is only when we lose our heads that we suffer these documents to create a situation calculated to shatter the foundations on which a stable society stands, and that is the consideration that ought to actuate us here, so that no matter how much we differ about minor events, about the fundamentals, Deputy Dr. Browne notwithstanding, we are all agreed.

I want to say in conclusion that while we are engaged in this campaign of promoting domestic chaos, the nations of Europe are gathering together in consultation to meet the consequences of the European Economic Community collapse. I refer to the EFTA conference, and I see Finland, who is not a member, represented there by its observers. There is only one country in Europe which is not represented at such consultations and that is Ireland. We are here considering how best to tear asunder the fabric of our society so that when the time comes to take our place in the competitive world of tomorrow we will be all at sixes and sevens, bemused by mutual distrust, getting ready to hate one another at a time when we should be bound together in mutual trust in the common cause of our common country.

There is none in this country—and I am as old a practitioner as any of them—who would be less anxious for a general election, and if I thought exhortation would achieve our purpose I would be happy to see it done in that manner, but because I am convinced that the only means of getting us on to the right road now is a change of Government, I shall vote for our motion and I shall vote for the Labour Party motion and for any other motion that will bring down Fianna Fáil and give our people the right at the hustings to choose a new Government who will concentrate on the task of uniting our people for the good of our country.

The Taoiseach came into this discussion yesterday in the characteristic role of a knight of old, sword flashing, denouncing all and sundry who did not happen to see the merits of his White Paper. The Fine Gael amendment to it was characterrised by him as dishonest. We were told the Labour Party amendment would not achieve either of the two objectives which the motion sought to achieve—to preserve the normal negotiating machinery and to preserve co-operation and harmony in industrial matters. It is typical of the Taoiseach, I suppose, that the only motion he would be pleased with would be one that he wrote himself, and I should imagine that unless the House were prepared to pass a motion saying that the Dáil approved of everything the Taoiseach ever did or will do hereafter, any other motion would be received with suspicion by the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach, whether he likes it or not, has come to the stage where he must realise he has got a simple passion which takes the form of believing that everything he thinks is right and everything he does is right. He comes into the House this week, as he did last week, as he did last year and every year during the past 30 years, telling us this is the obvious course to take and that if we question that we do so because we do not understand, that we must leave these matters of higher economics to the Taoiseach and to Deputy Martin Corry and that between the two of them, from opposite directions, we are bound to get the progress which will take us to unprecedented wealth.

I shall not vote for this White Paper because I do not believe in what the Taoiseach says and because I do not believe there is any set of circumstances which would justify the introduction of the White Paper at this time. I can see no set of circumstances indicated by any Minister to suggest that this was justified. It is only a few weeks ago since we had the Tánaiste at a dinner, which I do not begrudge him, getting into the poetic vein of which he was master in yester years and saying that in a very short time he would be leaving the chilly climate of the Celtic twilight and entering into the sunny fields of Europe where he would be installed in all his glory. There was not a worry on the Tánaiste that night or manifest in the speeches of other Government supporters.

But all of a sudden, overnight, we get this White Paper without anybody saying it was on the way or that discussions were taking place or that there were any circumstances to justify it. I would have thought that up to a week ago the Government's case was: "We are doing things excellently; progress is continuing and all the economic indications are favourable to continued progress." Did somebody overnight descend on the Government and give them this wage freeze idea so that a White Paper on a pay pause became necessary? Look at the situation. This day week we had Trade Union Congress and the employers' organisations all preparing for continued consultations to examine the basic and complex problems which affect industrial relations, production and, of course, future productivity. All that situation has now being swept aside and the Government, by this White Paper, have substituted total chaos and criticism for what last week was a peaceful and relatively halcyon scene in so far as industrial co-operation is concerned.

My main charge against the Government is that they have, without any economic justification whatever, acted inaptly, acted unfairly and that they have created anxiety and unnecessary worry at a time when keenness, co-operation and collaboration had much to commend them. The Government have changed a peaceful scene to a scene in which strife is now holding the upper hand and in which all the evidences are that the situation may get worse unless the Government are big enough now to recognise that they have acted unwisely, that they have acted on advice which was not basically correct and unless they have the wisdom to correct the course of action on which, from the White Paper, they appear to have embarked. I see nothing in the present situation which demands such heavyweight and panicky action by the Government.

Neither the White Paper itself, nor last Sunday's special pronunciamento by the Taoiseach, nor his speech yesterday has in any way explained the necessity for issuing a White Paper in these panicky terms. Of course, the White Paper itself is manifestly unfair. It is an unbalanced White Paper in that it is deliberately biased against the worker. It is not a White Paper which is the product of surveying a scene, watching the points in conflict, setting down the case for and against and forming, as far as you an do so, an impartial, honest, independent opinion.

There is practically no reference to profits in the White Paper and practically no reference to prices. The whole emphasis is against the ordinary working people. I have come to the conclusion that this was not an ordinary White Paper. This White Paper was ordered by the Government. It was written to specifications provided by the Government. It had to be in accordance with the instructions which the Government gave for its preparation. In other words, I believe this White Paper was cooked to serve the palate of the Government. That is why we have a White Paper that has pleased nobody except the Government, and it pleased them only because they probably feel that it is better in a storm of this kind to stand together rather than to try to withstand adversities in single file.

No attempt whatever has been made in the White Paper to examine the background of the wage increases in recent years. The main object appeared to be to get out a White Paper whatever you do and to get all the statistics you can lay hold of to show that in recent years the workers have got a certain increase in wages and that they must get no more and that steps will be taken to ensure that they do not. No attempt has been made to examine the background of the wage and salary increases which took place in 1961 and 1962.

This ought to be put on record in this House in the interests of the trade unions. In 1956 and 1957, the unions, bearing in mind the economic circumstances of the time, even though the food subsidies had been cut in the 1957 Budget, nevertheless contented themselves to accept a wage increase of 10/-per week. In 1959, the unions sought to close the gap which was opening and broadening between wages and prices on the 1939 level. It was not until 1960 that the trade unions were able to recover for their members the prewar purchasing power of their wages. That fact was admitted not only by members of the Government but in joint memoranda issued by the Trade Union Congress and the Employers' Federation. At all events, there can be no question that reference to the statistics and publications of the period will show that it was only in 1960 that the purchasing power of the workers' wages had been recovered.

In 1961, the trade unions sought increases in real wage standards. Against what did they seek this? Against the fact that since 1958 the gross national product had increased by 16 per cent, exports had risen by one-third in the two previous years and company profits had increased by over 50 per cent. Was it unreasonable in these circumstances that the unions should seek an increase in real wages? The result of the negotiations—what has come to be described as the eighth round wage increase—was to give the unions an increase of approximately eight per cent in real wages. But when you remember the fact that the gross national product had increased by 16 per cent, that exports had gone up by one-third and company profits by over 50 per cent, nobody will say that the increase secured by the workers was in any way unreasonable or was an unfair burden on the nation's resources, particularly when it is remembered that from 1939 until 1960, there was a gap to the disadvantage of the workers as far as wage rates were concerned.

Was there anything special in wage rates going up in Ireland under the eighth round of wage increases in 1961 and 1962? Wages had risen in Britain during the same period. Wages had risen in the Six Counties during the same period. Wages had risen in every one of the OEEC countries during the same period What had taken place in Ireland had taken place in many other countries and there was, in fact, no phenomenon as far as wage increases were concerned in Ireland during that period. In other words, we moved as Europe had moved, as Britain had moved, as the Six Counties had moved. In many cases, we moved with less speed than a number of these other countries.

Deputy Colley referred this evening to the increase in the cost of living. He thought that the workers had caused that. But what are the facts? The facts show that the increase in prices between August, 1961, and November, 1962—without going back to an earlier period—was four and a half per cent. Only half of that was due to wage increases. The other half was due to the action of the Government, particularly in respect of the increases imposed in the 1962 Budget on tobacco, beer, spirits and other commodities. Even if you assume that prices increased here, as they did, by four and a half per cent between August, 1961, and November, 1962, the fact remains that prices increased also during that period in Britain, in the Six Counties and in Europe. Again, we are merely in step with the rest of the world—the part of the world with which we have the closest association. We had no means of insulating ourselves against what was happening in these other countries.

Where is the justification, therefore, for this pay pause White Paper to be found? Is it to be found in imports, in exports or in our balance of trade? Let us see whether it can be found in any of these cases? In 1962, the export of our manufactured goods increased by five per cent. Our imports in the same year increased by less than five per cent. and the imports for 1962 were less than for any year since 1957. Although they increased by less than five per cent. half of that increase was in respect of capital goods such as machinery.

Look at the other exports in 1962. It is true that there was a fall in cattle exports and wheat exports but the cattle population is still here and available for export this year or at some later date. If you take imports, on the one hand, and exports, on the other, and balance the two, having regard to our invisible exports in the form of tourist traffic, dividends on foreign investments, emigrants' remittances and items of that kind, you find, according to the Central Bank, that our total deficit on our foreign account last year was only £12 million. Although the deficit appeared to be £100 million, without taking into consideration our invisible exports, when you examine the matter in detail, the position is that the deficit is only £12 million. We find also that the banks' net external assets last year rose by £12 million so that, in fact, judged through the banks, there was no loss of foreign earnings and no loss of external assets. In fact, the net foreign assets of the banks today are £27 million higher than they were in 1960.

Do these figures provide any justification for a wage pause? In the face of these facts and others, most of which have not been mentioned in the White Paper, is there any justification for imposing the wage pause when in fact we should be congratulating ourselves on the stability achieved and providing for its continuance by means of co-operation and understanding with all the elements involved? Instead, the White Paper comes like a bolt from the blue.

Although the Tánaiste has made two speeches since the issue of the White Paper, nobody has yet made any effort to say why it was not possible to consult the Irish Congress of Trade Unions about what was intended. Congress did not expect their agreement to be sought. They did not expect the Government to say: "We shall do nothing without your agreement". Congress would have been satisfied if the Government had told them what the problem was and said they would like to discuss it with them, and said : "We know you are doing this sort of thing every day of the week; we know you have wide, long and deep experience. We know you have a point of view to put which cannot be put by the Government without that specialised knowledge which trade unions have." There was no reason why the Government should not have said : "Let us have a one-day or a two-day session and tell us what you think should be done. Let us discuss all this, distil all this and see if we can get something in the long run which will meet the situation for all of us."

Never in the past two days nor since the issue of the White Paper have we been given any satisfactory reason why Congress should not be consulted. It would be clear to anybody with any savvy that the first thing that should have been done was to consult Congress and the employers' organisations and to gather and distil their views, even if in the long run the Government had to take a decision on their own without the other two bodies. A vital mistake was made in saying: "We do not want Congress; we do not want the employers' organisation. We shall go ahead and have a death-or-glory ride now and a wage pause."

That was a mistake. Congress had a point of view and they should have been allowed to make it. No harm could have been done even if the Government disagreed with every view expressed. There is something to be said for consulting people, especially if you want them to travel some portion of the road with you under conditions which will have to be shared. The mistake the Government made was to rush into this thing at the last minute with a complete change in the attitude that everything in the garden was lovely and to confront the country with their White Paper, without a single economic index to support it and to give the country a panicky, heavyweight wage pause which has no counterpart in any other democracy in Western Europe.

Would it have caused any great assault on the economic fabric of the State if the White Paper were delayed for a few days while important bodies were consulted? I do not think it would. Nobody on the Government side thought it would but, of course, the mistake has been made now and whether "Pa" is right or wrong, everybody has to say that "Pa" was right. We are given no reason but "Pa" does everything right and there has to be a gang-up in support of a line of policy which I think was a most mischievous line for the Government to pursue.

I believe that, properly put to the Congress and the employers' organisation and when it is shown that this was not aimed at the workers alone, co-operation might have been got in the special circumstances confronting us in view of the debacle which has been reached in EEC circles in Europe. There was some reason for the Government putting their cards clearly on the table. The Government are not an injured innocent in this matter. The country still remembers the war-time wage-freeze and what was threatened in 1947, another wage-freeze. The country knows also that in the Department of Industry and Commerce there is a Bill, drafted by the Taoiseach, purporting to freeze wages and to make it an offence punishable by very heavy fines if wage increases were granted, once the Bill had been passed by the Dáil.

If you have to your credit—or discredit, as I prefer to term it—a war-time wage-freeze, a threat of a 1947 wage-freeze and a Bill drafted by no less a person than the Taoiseach himself, with that record, I should think ordinary prudence and sagacity would suggest that you would go to these outside organisations and say: "Forget about the past. These things happen in certain circumstances and the Irish people are frequently forgiving and quite willing to let bygones be bygones. Here is the new situation and here is what we are thinking of doing about it. Here is the problem that has to be faced." You could then put it to Congress and to the employers' organisations that something should be done to meet the situation the Government had in mind. If they disagreed, the Government were still free to go any way they liked but the Government put themselves in the wrong by refusing to consult with anybody except the outdated economists who give us figures of that kind. If this country were to rely on the prophecies made by economists over the past 30 years, they would be an outlawed occupation, so many of the prophecies have been unfulfilled.

I believe from my discussions with the Congress that it wanted to help, and I believe that the Congress still want to help in any action where they can be convinced that the need for a prudent approach to the wages issue is something that begets their understanding and support. After all, the Congress are on record as saying in their statement :

We are in favour of an expanding economy since only by this means can workers' living standards be raised. Because this is our objective we are naturally in favour of increased production and raising productivity which in fact, go hand in hand, but since it is accepted that increasing the level of productivity is a management responsibility workers cannot be criticised if the rise in productivity lags as it did last year. While management, in general, can be criticised for its lack of initiative particularly in respect of export markets it must be recognised that in the conditions of our economy a real drive towards economic development must come from the Government by the planned use of all our resources.

That is the view of the Congress which I do not think is out of step with any of the views expressed by the Government.

I think the Congress are right in their declaration, that the main responsibility for ensuring progress and development in the industrial and agricultural field lies on the Government. But I believe, notwithstanding all the goodwill that the Government can mobilise from their own resources, they are entitled to expect and to receive on an agreed policy the co-operation and understanding of other vast and valuable agencies which have a contribution to make. The Government should get their goodwill by approaching them and not by merely handing out to them a decision and saying: "That is what we are going to do; you can take it or leave it, whichever you like." The expansion of production and productivity leading to full employment and rising living standards can be got in the circumstances here and that will come all the quicker, the more those who are responsible for the physical operation of it, whether on the factory floor, at the directors' table, or in the trade union organisations which cater for those in between, are consulted and given their share of the responsibility to make their contribution.

The Irish Congress of Trade Unions in their issued statement make this comment:

The Irish Congress of Trade Unions recognises the importance of the need to obtain full employment with rising standards by achieving the highest possible rate of economic expansion with reasonable price stability——

with reasonable price stability——

——and without too seriously upsetting the equilibrium in the balance of payments.

Surely there is evidence of a desire to co-operate and surely this goodwill and enthusiasm are not to be blunted or spurned merely because the Government want to appear as the omnipotent controller of national affairs? I believe that the co-operation of the Congress can be got and that others can be found as well to co-operate on an agreed policy which will give results, which will raise living standards and open up a better and fuller life for our people.

I would make this suggestion to the Taoiseach, I think he should pull out his White Paper entirely. We have had two days' discussion on it and there has been no justification whatever for issuing it. The country is not as bad as they make out it is. He should pull out the White Paper and see the Congress and the employers' organisation and get a conference on that basis. You cannot operate this paper by Government action alone. I strongly advise him to seek the round table instead of the jackboot as the best method of settling this whole problem.

Item No. 5 on today's Order Paper is Deputy Dillon's motion:

That Dáil éireann condemns the Government for the failure of its policies as confirmed by the terms of its own White Paper.

Amendment No. 1 has been moved by Deputy Seán Dunne, an amendment to delete certain words and substitute others. I am putting the question that the amendment as set out be made.

Question put and declared lost.

Will the Deputies asking for a division rise in their places?

Deputies S. Dunne and Carroll rose.

The Deputies will be recorded as dissenting.

I hope the workers will take due note of the voting on this, the most effective motion on the Order Paper.

I understood the amendment would be taken in its precedence.

It is taken in its precedence. It is the first amendment put.

Is there even an oral indication of the voting? I would be presumptuous enough to suggest that the motion in the name of Deputy Seán Dunne should be taken first.

I hope the Press will tell the workers what has happened to the most effective motion on the Order Paper.

Will Deputy Dr. Browne please move his amendment?

I move amendment No. 2 :

To add at the end of the motion "and calls upon it to resign."

We accept that amendment, Sir.

I will put it to the House.

Question put: "That the proposed words be added."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 52; Níl, 73.

Tá.

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barron, Joseph.
  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Michael.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Carroll, Jim.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan D.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donnell, Thomas G.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.K.
  • O'Keeffe, James.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.

Níl.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dolan, Séamus.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hillery, Patrick.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Leneghan, Joseph R.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Con.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sheridan, Joseph.
  • Sherwin, Frank.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Dr. Browne and McQuillan; Níl: Deputies J. Brennan and Geoghegan.
Amendment declared lost.
Main question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 50 ; Níl, 73.

Tá.

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barron, Joseph.
  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Michael.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Carroll, Jim.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan D.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donnell, Thomas G.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.K.
  • O'Keeffe, James.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.

Níl.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dolan, Séamus.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hillery, Patrick.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Leneghan, Joseph R.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Con.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sheridan, Joseph.
  • Sherwin, Frank.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies O'Sullivan and Crotty ; Níl: Deputies J. Brennan and Geoghegan.
Question declared lost.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann disapproves of the Government's White Paper on Incomes and Output Closing the Gap relating to wages and salaries and working conditions as calculated to interfere with the normal machinery for the regulation of these matters, and as likely to promote discord between management and workers at a time when co-operation is so necessary.

Question put.
The Dáil divided : Tá, 67; Níl, 73.

Tá.

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barron, Joseph.
  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Michael.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Carroll, Jim.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Hogan, O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan D.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Mullen, Michael.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donnell, Thomas G.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. K.
  • O'Keeffe, James J.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tierney, Patrick.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.

Níl.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dolan, Séamus.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hillery, Patrick.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Leneghan, Joseph R.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Con.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sheridan, Joseph.
  • Sherwin, Frank.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Tully and Treacy ; Níl: Deputies J. Brennan and Geoghegan.
Question declared lost.

Go, go, go.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 27th February, 1963.

Barr
Roinn